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Found it! Rashi Taanis 4a
????? ?????: ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? (?? ?.) ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???
It is a rabbinic scholar who is sharp and young. Like a well developed egg which has the same shoresh. This is different than a Torah Scholar who is not per-say on his way to get real smicha. So today I would say perhaps kemat NO ONE can be considered to be
“????? ??????”. Though sometimes it is probably meant not literally.
Found it, very interesting. tosfos nazir 54b:
?”? ???? ??’ ???’ ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?”?. ????? ???? ??????? ???”? ???? ?’ ??’ ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?’ ??’ ????? ?? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????. ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?’ ??? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ????? ??”? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ?’ ??’ ???? ???? ????”? ??”? ?? ?????? ????’ ???? ????? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????. ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?] ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??????’ ???’ ????? (?”? ??’ ??) ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???…..?
Sam2: it’s a Rashi.
(Rashi) ????? ?????? ??????: ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????????
LAB: I do not think that is accurate. He mentioned her in third person and the gemara RECORDS it as such SPECIFICALLY because the way he stated her name was a major point of the gemara. If it was not a major point of the gemara then the gemara would have recorded it as “Does she want so and so”
Your comment of the lashon is interesting. “I believe the Lashon is Tzurva MeiRabannan, not Talmid Chacham”. In Bava Metzia 19a that lashon is also used in an exclusive sense.
Rashi: ????? ?????? ??????. ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????????
Perhaps one can say this is only a Rabbinic student of the time of the gemara. Though it also seems to be used for a Torah Scholar.
See Chullin 133a for a case were both tzurva meirabannan is used and talmid chacham. The prior being used to allow a kohen to confer the kohanic gifts to a tzurva meirabannan who is in need. The later being the case of a talmid chacham who teaches someone who is undeserving and thus is destined to gehenom.
Sam 2
See Nedarim 62b. King Cyrus removed the tax obligation from the sanhendrin. The gemara extends that to all talmeidei hachamim. Included in this is more than just the army tax. It is land tax, head tax and the Kings travel tax.
jewish source: see psalms 68:15 and brachos 15b
If you make the name of Hashem clear by saying each word clearly then the Torah which the kings of Israel rule from will cool off for you the shadow of death (i.e. gehenom).
you should have taken the edible challah away from the dough instead. Its mutar if you do it with your hand and right away. also, can’t seperate challah on shabbos.
beitza 14a
See this Rashi from Beitza 16a: ???? ?????. ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????
I believe this is a spiritual form of gaining weight it is referring to. When we eat something in this physical world it weighs us down spiritually. There is also much written about the spiritual pitfalls of over eating and eating fancy things. On shabbos though, this does not happen because we have an extra neshama.
Well it’s really more a chiuv of the father to support his wife who in turn practically supports the child until 6. And it’s not until they grow up its until they mature (have pubic hairs- Rashi).
I said from the beginning that the sources I quoted were only for very dedicated people. Do such people exists today? Is so and so one of them? That is not for me to say.
I heard also that the avos gave years to Dovid. See below:
day long. Once He created Adam, He said, ‘Here, indeed, is his existence!’ So from Adam derived the 70 years for which King David endured in the world.
“Further, the patriarchs bequeathed some of their life to him, Abraham bequeathed to him, as did Jacob and Joseph; Isaac didn’t
bequeath anything to him because King David derived from his side. “Abraham bequeathed 5 years to him, since he should have endured for 180 years and he endured for 175, lacking 5. Jacob should have endured for the same number of days as Abraham, but he endured for only 147 years,
lacking 28. Consequently, Abraham and Jacob bequeathed 33 years of life. Joseph endured for 110 years and should have endured for 147 years, the same as Jacob, so 37 years were missing. Look! Seventy years, bequeathed by them to
King David, who endured for all those years bequeathed by the patriarchs.
~The Zohar
I found it, its actually on daf 65b. That is only for children under age 6 though. The rambam you mentioned actually brings down this very gemara saying they cannot be forced if they are not wealthy.
I still don’t see any sources that in anyway negate the gemara in eiruvin.
I looked but was not able to find that takana made in usho you are referring to. Can you copy and past it as a source so I can read it? Thanks
I dont think I am being disingenuous but I do love to see sources. I am showing sources in the gemara, not poskening halacha. You can also look at the source below: ??. ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????:
Also in the gemara in brachos you mentioned the maharsha says that a tzadik gamur can only learn Torah. Anyway, it’s an interesting conversation.
rabbiofberlin: Also an interesting take is the gemara in kiddushin 82a: Rav Nehorai says a father is not obligated to teach a son who is a sincere talmid chacham a trade and only teach him Torah. I am not saying that people today should do this, but it is not a simple matter.
??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???
rabbiofberlin: Actually, if you want to talk about strict halacha apposed to the spirit of the law, the gemara in kesuvos 49b is very clear on the matter. It clearly says that we CANNOT force a poor father to support his children and we CAN force rich people to support children who are not their own! Very interesting.
?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????
Rashi: ??? ????. ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????’ ???? ????
BTW: the gemara in kiddushin 73a does say that one reason one can wed someone who was adopted and does not know who their parents are even though such a person might be a mamzer is because parents do indeed give their children away to other families if they cannot afford to feed them. Thus there is a strong possibility the child was given away for that reason apposed to being a mamzer.
Im not sure if you are being sarcastic but the gemara would certainly not condone child dumpster-diving. In fact, Rav Adda was telling his wife to go find cheap food for his children to eat as the conversation was between him and her- no child labor. He was not telling his children to do so. Also, according to Rashi’s second interpretation as well the food mentioned had to be processed and baked.
I think the point of this specific gemara is that for some families (not all) it is ok to “rough it out” and live at the poverty line for the sake of Torah scholarship. Though it is true that he never said to go take tzedaka. I do wonder if that would also apply in a prosperous secular society with the advent of advanced machinery and technology.
I suppose also this would only apply to people who learn as sincerely as Rav Adda. Most people who do not have that aptitude should work several hours instead even according to that gemara.
If you learn to appreciate “suffering” and grow from “suffering” and see “suffering” as a coming from Hashem in conjunction with staying away from aveiros you will avoid suffering.
As is says in brachos 63a: Anyone who makes Hashem a partner in his suffering (i.e. accepts that his suffering is from Hashem and is for his own good) doubles his livelihood.
“?”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??”
“Exactly. Should have included it on the list as well. Thanks.”
You are welcome, but it seems to me that the gemara I quoted in eiruvin is contradictory in spirit to the one you quoted in kesuvos. Perhaps the point is that one should (or is certainly allowed to) treat his family like raven….but not worse than a raven. I can quote it in english if that helps.
“Black as a raven With whom do you find these? With him who for their sake rises early [to go] to, and remains late in the evening [before returning home
from] the schoolhouse. Rabbah explained: [You find these only] with him who for their sake
You see, while the gemara you quoted in kesuvos in pro-family-support at expense of everything else the one I quoted is certainly not. It is saying that the highest levels of Torah scholarship can only be found in someone who acts harsh towards his family by limiting his support of them and focusing instead on Torah scholarship.
I would say it applies to Jews as well. Being that the gemara mentions the dangerous sport of bullfighting were people would train bulls to fight with one another and even fight with other people.
See tosfos bava kama 24b: ????? ???? ?? ????? ??’. ?? ??? ???? ??????? (???? ?? ??.) ????? ???? ??? ??????
I do not think this is a spiritual thrill. It is a chemical one that can be found in both Jews and non-Jews.
gavra_at_work: What about the gemara in Eruvin 21b-22a?
??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????
????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?????
WIY but the later part of the gemara specifically says that Torah is only given through suffering and Hashem brings suffering upon those He loves.
???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?”? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??????
See also Brachos 28 a: ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???