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As I mentioned, I know he will be impressed. The question is about whether or not it is okay to bring up LH to this end.
What the rav owes my friend is not my cheshbon. The fact that he was willing to extend a message of regret (which would require an acknowledgement of wrongdoing) would impress my friend.
Why do I care about impressing my friend? I am always wanting to lessen someones negativity toward another person when possible. This would lessen his negativity, but possibly not by enough to warrant the LH that could come out of it.
why? do you want to meet him there?
regarding my friend, regardless of what he says, there is no way it will not be a michshol to negative thoughts. Think about where he was in all of this. Is there enough of a gain to justify it? I just don’t know.
I agree. I have just been hesitant to bring up the subject of his behavior at all since it was inappropriate and I worried about lashon hora. I never gave them the impression that Rabbaim are above the law, but I was hesitant to discuss it for fear of not doing so appropriately. And I guess I didn’t want to bring it up for discussion before there was this to add to it.(which I surely never expected)
Here’s the story – i am trying to leave out some basics without leaving out the needed info but don’t know if it will work. Feel free to ask questions.
As I have mentioned a few times I have a friend who was involved in a very messy divorce. I have also mentioned that I experienced some very difficult interactions with people whom I had trusted or were in trusted positions. I am not one to share stories of “bad behavior” with my children, but they were there to witness many disturbing scenes.
Here is a mock up of a scenario for the sake of being able to ask my question.
we were all sitting in the living room and witnessed person A following my friend home. We saw them start an altercation with my friend, and then call the police. We heard the police say the reason for the call, and we know first hand it was not true (we were watching thru the window). Person A then reported this incident (claiming my friend did what he was accused of doing) to a Rav who now accepted it as fact. My children were in the room when the rav called (we didn’t know at the time why he was calling) and he gave over instructions to us based on this false report. We told him we knew the report was false but he was very adamant that he knew it was true and that we were to help file the report against our friend.
So that type of thing happened many times with different trusted individuals and it was very very painful and disheartening. My children know that we feel this rav let us down and that respecting this man became difficult. (tho we NEVER spoke it out). Now it is a year later and I received a second hand message of regret from this particular rav. I am surprised and pleased. I am grateful. I am also very sad. My dilemma is this (two things):
Would it be good for my older children to know about this gesture since they know about the “behavior”?
My friend was so badly burned by so many people. I would love to tell him about the message because he would be impressed that it was done (maybe make the person look better in his eyes?), but it may only lessen his ‘hatred’ from 100% to 90%. He would be happy for me, but it could certainly bring forth many comments/thoughts of lashon hora due to his own experiences and his lack of receipt of any such regret toward his ill treatment.
So…what do you feel is the right thing to do, what are your feelings on this dilemma?
I’m borrowing the thread for the title not the topic-
*****disclaimer*****
I am NOT looking for a psak or halacha for this dilemma. I am curious to know what people think about it. I find it comes up on occasion, not always as severely as this time, and Im interested in what others have to say.
(continued on next post)
where is he these days? I hope his children are safe.
he didn’t just try to enroll them, he actually had them attend. You cannot tell me that does not affect the community.
I firmly suspect that if we were using only kosher funds for our yeshivos we would not lose a single child.
yes, they absolutely are.
thanks. I grew up with someone named chana garfinkel so that always comes to mind first.
in addition to those mentioned, all Rabbi Fischel Schechter, Rabbi YY Rubinstein, Mrs. Chana Garfinkel to start. I listen to those regularly and have really used them to make great changes and move forward.
huh?
Okay, I’ll throw in a maybe last word –
This conversation PROCESS (not content) reminds me of two kids talking about where apples come from. They are arguing on the details and disagreeing until they realize one of them was talking about the tree, and the other was talking about the fruit store.
easy math? I disagree. My brain fills in blanks based on my insides. And I’m pretty good at math 🙂
Which you are interpreting to mean that feivel holds that the medical professionals who do agree with those points are dark and evil. I do not think that is what feivel meant at all.
YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!
thank you.
thanks for answering, kind of, but not really. I did get your point but I can’t get you to take a step back and clear your mind long enough to make mine. (I am willing to assume it is my presentation, not saying it is a fault in you).
I wanted to point out that 2scents used the word “overload” but NEVER made any reference to which population he was thinking of. You did that math on your own. My personal value system may have filled in the blanks as his “overloading” making a reference to poor, drunks and druggies who seem to fill the ER’s I have been in.
I am sorry that feivel’s post was misread by you in a way that is making it impossible to move forward. It seems to be influencing every other comment and question I try to make. It makes me sad becuase you are holding it so strongly against him and “his type” and it isn’t even what was intended.
Regarding all the non-related points that have come up, you sound like a very caring doctor and your commitment to Torah is very commendable.
ca – I vaguely remember it being mentioned many moons ago. Could we ask the mods for a resume?
ubiquitin – I have a personal policy that if I cannot make my point understood after numerous attempts I stop trying. I am therefore reluctant to post again but I keep seeing windows of opportunity to make my point in response to comments made. If this ends up sounding like “more of the same” feel free to ignore it.
You made a statement above that I would like to work with but you would have to be willing to answer without drawing in any of the past conversation.
you state “many of those “overloading” the beds are…”
what makes you in your innermost heart use the word “overloading” when referring to that population? Without factoring any other facts we’ve discussed, what would make YOU, as an individual, use that wording? (I assure you this is a question, not a set-up)
there really is no such thing as malignant narcissism, although there is nacissistic personality disorders. I don’t know how common it is because I work in a field where we see more people with disorders than without. It is a very sad disorder as people sabatoge their own relationships and can neither acknowledge it nor take responsibility for it. Changing them is almost impossible and I don’t know if there is any medications at all for personality disorders.
so here are some of the tips we have considered in order to make the wedding more affordable.
1) many people will invite a core of people for the meal, and many other people to join for the dancing (simchas chosson v’kallah). We were actually thinking of just sending “please join us for dancing” cards to the entire list.
2) we will send out invitations announcing a 5:00 kabalas ponim but the wedding will really start at 1 so everyone will get there just in time for dancing.
3) check the community calendar for a day that you know nobody will be available or when someone extremely wealthy and influential is having a wedding in a city out of town.
4) get in arguments with lots of our friends so that we don’t really have anyone to invite.
ubiquitin – why would I answer such a question? How could I possibly make life changing decisions without the files in front of me? Your questioning of me just reinforces that we are not really on the same topic at all. I never implied that those decisions could not be made or that they should not be made. I don’t question your ability to find peace with the need to make those decisions. I question your attitude toward the decision, and that you seem to have lost the big picture of what Hashem is asking of us. The glasses scenerio was not hard so understand. It is an exercise I have used with school kids. Perhaps it is too uncomfortable for you (to use your choice of words).
When you choose between two patients, and you believe you are choosing appropriately, are you ever sorry that healthcare even demands it of you? Do you still wish for the day that the government will say, “I can’t believe we are opening more libraries when there isn’t even enough money to keep the dying old people alive!” Probably sounds silly to you. Or maybe you will misunderstand me to say books aren’t important. If Good and Emes ran the world, there would not be a penny going to ANYTHING superfluous if there is an old dying comatose patient who needs that funding to live. It won’t happen but it’s a VALUE. An attitude toward life, and a VALUE.
Anyone who knows the REAL value of a life would let everything else go while they funded healthcare. You can’t possibly change the system, but if only you were willing to see it for what it is and how it has affected you.
ubiquitin – okay, so we seem to be standing together at this spot. Let me move it forward for a second. I am completely with you that those choices need to be made. That questions and distinctions need to be considered etc. I will pick an obviously made up scenerio so it can be free of bias for us both.
Let’s just say that we set a medical ethics guideline that we tend to go for those who don’t wear glasses as the more valued because of their contributions to society/religion/politics etc. When faced with two choices, we choose the one without glasses. knowing how we operate as humans, the more we are forced to chose the person without glasses, the more we develop a slight tinge of bias toward them. Over time, having to constantly choose against the glasses wearer, we develop an understanding that they are somehow or somewhat lesser. In time, and this is what has happened to us today, in time we will have that feeling of “lesser-ness” toward the glasses wearer EVEN WHEN A CHOICE IS NOT REQUIRED. We start to shape our view of those individuals and it leaves it’s mark. This goes against the Torah and emes. This seepage, if it starts shaping your beliefs about living beings, is dangerous.
I know that one can think a glasses wearer, a comatose patient or a dying old man warrants less medical priority, that is the reality, but I would expect a frum, Torah Jew to spit it out in a sentence that sounds a lot more like:
unfortunately with the healthcare system being what it is, a comatose patient does not warrant the same level of care and priority and it is believed by them that the bed would better serve others.
Someone who utters that sentence will still make choices about where the pint of blood goes, but it sure as heck says a lot about where he stands in his values as they correspond with the Torah.
Sam – I have to say that whatever shock ubiquitin expressed over feivel’s comments, I am feeling that regarding yours. I am sad and speechless to hear those thoughts rumbling around in a head so filled with Torah learning.
ubiquitin – your response regarding hishtadlus does not remotely resemble my comments regarding belief. I was very clear (several times) that I did NOT say – “don’t bother giving him intervention because Gd will”. I very clearly said – if you are UNABLE to provide intervention to someone because medical ethics dictate that you use your time or materials on someone else instead, you should never think that it is YOU who is deciding their fate.
If I have one rope and two people are drowning I can only save one, but I MUST believe that the other is not just the ‘guy who drew the short straw’, he is in Hashems hands since he is CLEARLY out of my reach. I should be wishing I could save both, but understanding that I must pick one, and believing that it was Hashem’s will and He will deal as needed.
you cannot twist that to mean that I said that I have one rope and two people are drowning and I start saying tehillim.
I have no problem discussing differing points, and I hear loud and clear that some of these points are not registering at all as intended, but please do not play with my words. That just makes me look foolish and it is not fair.
Thank you so, so much for your words regarding my dad. No, he did not make it. Unfortuantely I have not yet had any family go in to the hospital and actually come out. Even those who should have, but that is really a different discussion. And my views are really NOT coming from my personal experiences with family as much as from work and professional experiences. That nurse I mentioned was very kind and not at all an exception to the rule.
I tried to bring a couple parallels to illustrate my point (such as valuing money) but you seemed to think I was referring to it in context of this topic, which I wasn’t. In person it may be possible for me to untangle it all but I am not good at doing it in two dimension (obviously).
You are very fortunate to be living in a world where you think my killing statement is an exception. I am not surprised to hear that not all healthcare systems resemble Illinois systems but it is honestly not exception by any standards.
As I don’t feel I can productively state my meaning any better or differently I will call a draw, I guess. My only remaining statement would be –
it is not possible to say this
A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.
and believe that you have integrated Hashem’s views and values into your inner self and are allowing them to dictate your prejudices and judgements. What you DO will depend on the medical ethic journals, what you BELIEVE should be based in Torah and truth. That comment is not.
thank you for responding. I am guessing that we are at an impasse at this point because we seem to be arguing separate things. You say it is hard to have a normal attitude toward people coming from dark and evil places. You are correct. But we are not talking about PEOPLE (for lack of ability to underscore) coming from dark and evil places. We are talking about the underlying concepts that those people have integrated into their development. If society puts value on materialism, the people who grow up that way and make their decisions based on that belief are not evil, but the concept at it’s spiritual core is evil and emanates from that.
If the concept is foriegn to you, you will not choose it. Hashem is the one who brings these concepts into the world. Why are the choices what they are? You are thinking about the cognitive side to all of this, but I am talking about the the spark of reality that puts the choices on the table.
In the above examples it would look like this: A nurse denies a pint of blood to an old dying man because it would be wasteful. This nurse, many years ago, would have been regretful and pained to make such a decision. The believing Jew that I was referencing will make that decision because the medical ethics book says so but will be believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it. That is SEPARATE from the ethical decision, that is the core belief driving the attitude. This nurses and doctors now are NOT pained by these choices because they believe them to be right. What has changed? Has money really altered the value of life as you say? Or has it just changed the need for the different decisions? You are confusing DOING what is CORRECT, and the ultimate right and wrong that allows people to make choices. Why don’t we just shoot them thru the head? Becuase that is not even an option in our day. When the day comes that it will be (figuratively) it will become “right”. It may be “right” in the medical world, but it is not “right” in Torah. And only Gd can allow that shift. It didn’t happen because of science. The situation of over crowding came from science, the way we have chosen to deal with it did not.
I am sorry I cannot explain myself better because I would honestly love to hear what you think of that which I was trying to say as opposed to that which you hear.
I cannot leave without one parting thing, tho, that I am actually shocked to have heard you say. You say noone is killing anyone? Absolutely false. Nobody argues that people ar being killed, the arguement is on whether or not it is justified.
Sam – yes, if I have one rope and two drowning people in opposite directions you would be correct. But if I have one rope and one drowning person and I watch him go under feeling mighty comfortable and free because I know that I am saving that rope JUST IN CASE someone really special comes along…well, then what would you call it?
ubiquitin – You have many fine points. I think I agree with almost everything except that it isn’t coming from a place of evil. But putting that aside for a moment, in this post you are arguing a separate point. I agree with you that how you present things to goyim or secular Jews in the workplace will make a very big difference and will yield better results. I did not get the impression Feivel was speaking to secular Jews or goyim. I think he was specific about who he was speaking to and why. And if you knew him, you would realize how silly some of your personal comments toward him really are.
But I digress (common for me). Regardless of the intent of the health care providers, and regardless of the way you present the facts, it is important to always remember the Torah view that we value every second of life and what we need to do to preserve it. It isn’t just two contrasting themes. Our way vs. their way. The Torah way is the right way, and the goyim may mean well, but where do you think this new way of thinking came from? This was NOT the norm years ago.
This new idea of killing off old people and feeling it is valid is pretty recent and something had to have set this horrible idea into motion. And it wasn’t kindness and concern that did it. It is a newer phenomenon in the American system to let old people die, to aid the terminally ill in assisted suicide, to abort fetus’ that may have abnormalities. You cannot argue that life is no longer valued to the degree it was even decades ago and it is certainly considered more optional sometimes. There had to have been some major underlying something that changed the view of mankind to demote the worth of the infirm.
I do whole heartily disagree with you about my dad’s situation as well because it IS super common, and your reasoning was off. If they were under the gun like that and had to make a decision I would agree that there need be criteria for that, but this was more like, “I would like to deprive your father of life right now, so that I can leave the blood in the fridge on the chance an O- patient MAY show up”. The ability to deprive someone of life for a MAYBE, and think it is a wise choice, is a whole new level for our system. No nurse twenty years ago would have ever had a thought like that cross her mind. You saved whomever was in front of you. And if you are frum, then you need to also believe that if Hashem wants the other patient to live, blood will show up for him too. That KNOWLEDGE should fill your head with room for nothing more! 🙂
And mind you it isn’t life potential that decides as they will give a well paying drunk a new liver before a medicaid young healthy father. When money starts influencing ones choices (and it must on some level because you yourself brought it in. Good points but money based none the less) then we have reached a new low. And where does “low” eminate from? That is the bottom, bottom line we as Jews need to remember as we start to defend the “valid points” of the healthcare views.
As an answer to your non question, I certainly would have given all my clothes, cars, food and home to keep my sisters or parents alive, even to sit near them while they lay comatose. Wouldn’t you?
Your points were good ones. Sorry my thoughts are not quite so organized
Wow ubiquitin, what an out-of-proportion response! You may disagree with him with every fiber of your being but attack mode over this? Seems a bit out of character for you. And both you and Sam seem, by your answers, to have totally missed the forest for the tree or two you misread.
I don’t get the impression you understood what he was saying but I do believe you would disagree with what I understood to be his point as well. I am just very surprised, with all your medical experience, that you disagree so strongly. As someone who is in the medical field, has worked in hospitals (rehab as well as acute) and has watched several family members die I can’t say I disagree with a single point of his. He was not speaking of the thoughts going thru each doctors mind, I believe he was talking about the source of the attitude and direction of healthcare.
One very telling lesson I learned was from some secular and non Jewish patients who told me they or their loved one would NEVER want to be on life support or disabled. They swore up and down they would rather be left to die as they firmly believe the garbage society has taught, that your life is only worth something if you are productive. Well oddly enough, when these very same people show up post stroke or debilitating disease/incident and can no longer take care of themselves and need tremendous care, they beg for life. They change their minds about being a DNR. They try to convince their family that they really DO want to remain alive no matter what condition they are in. Unfortunately their family sometimes writes off these requests as senility.
One of my favorite comments from a loving, caring, wonderful ICU nurse was, “Are you sure you want us to transfuse your father? There are so many young people who could put this blood to better use” (he was O-).
😛
embarrassing confession (even more embarrassing knowing how many posters know who I am) that I hope helps –
This in NO way justifies the end result but one of my boys kept on asking me for thank you cards after his bar mitzvah and I couldn’t afford either the cards, or the stamps. He was too embarrassed to write it on regular paper (I don’t blame him) and I never quite meant to NOT do it, just meant to “do it soon”. I was wrong, but I wanted to put it out thereif it helps someone be more empathetic. . .
Amen feivel, I don’t even know what to say. I would love to live up to every word of that!
oh golfer, gimme a minute! 🙂
I was not in reach of my computer so I couldn’t answer sooner.
Thank you so much everyone. I am beside myself. We are all so beyond grateful for this wonderful addition to the family.
Turkey sandwhiches for everyone in the parking lot of the shul!!!!!!!!!
yup, popa, that’s the one!
Thanks midwesterners, I knew I could count on you! I am so beyond grateful to Hashem for this match.
And since she’s about 25 years older than him it really helps with the shidduch crisis!
musser zoger – remember ovadiah?
i happen to know that Noah Wolff was very conscientious about the brissim he performed. If the mom is a convert, he would look into the matter and determine if the baby needs a conversion. He often had boys accompany him to questionable brissim to be available as eidim. The name on the “certificate” will usually reflect that by saying so-and-so ben Sora.
I would think nixing a shidduch because of a bracelet or watch wouldn’t be prudent,
nice strawman response to a legitamate question
though perhaps there is a big difference in town or out of town.
As far as I know I do live in a town. just not in yours.
but that type of thinking is just one more thing to add to the list of good reasons to live where i do.
i dont consider a bracelet or watch to even be considerations for people who cant afford them. there is no comparison between managing without a watch/bracelet and having turkey sandwiches.
I personally had a buffet because of cost and it was fine. people were able to eat even more than they would have. we also didn’t have a schmorg. in our community, thank Gd, it is still acceptable to forgo many of the so called basics that you all speak of in the tri-state area. which brings me to another point, if your complaints about peer pressure and keeping up with the jonses being the cause of all this is accurate, then am I not correct in turning down shidduchim from this area and telling my children it would not be healthy for them to raise a family in the tri-state area? I am assuming you will be appalled at the mere thought of it, even tho it goes right in line with helping prevent all these “societal pressures” you frown upon. if you raise your kids in a torah true atmosphere where people don’t believe you need huge diamonds, fancy bracelets, lavish weddings etc then all of your complaints here could be a non-issue.
who has money for newspapers? im saving up for a streimel.
hey midwesterner, were you at the bonfire? (gefen – noone asked you :P)
here’s my guess. if someone legit is making a party, why would you think you couldn’t go? If you don’t know you have a question, you don’t ask it, and if you don’t ask him, you won’t know (he made no public admonishments).
If there was a chassidish community and a non-chassidish community and each had lag b’omer activities, or the chassidim had several and the non-chassidim had none, it is possible you may wonder if it is permissible to go to the “other” party. But this is a very small large community and we do things together. When Rabbi Eichenstein makes a party, everyone comes. it’s the only party in town and the lack of party elsewhere is just the norm, i wouldn’t have attributed it to halacha.
I assume there are others who don’t go, and it is possible that if one asked a shaila, they would be told they could take the kids so they don’t feel isolated.
in the end tho, i dont really get it.
but the overseer of the bonfire does have a bigger shul. He is chassidish and tho we only have about 5 chassidish families in the whole city (okay, 25 families), that shul is really at the center of most of the parties.
not really, it’s more like a live band, fire and food is more of a draw than sitting in your house waiting for morning.
every year there is a huge celebration with a band and “bonfire” that most of the community goes to. except my kids. because we can’t listen to live music tonight, we don’t let the kids go to the celebration. what we can’t understand is why, if the dayan of the city is the one who says it is not permitted, do we not know anyone else who has to sit home tonight. My kids will “swear” they are the only ones who aren’t there.
This year a neighbor made a fire in his backyard for his kids and mine. He can go to the celebration if he wants to but he is antisocial. Gd bless my neighbor.
gaw – this is obviously too hot of a button to discuss rationally. And I am super familiar with that feeling. I hear your responses to me and they are not quite answers to what I said, but rather to what you want to think I said. For example, I did not say buying a sheital was a mitzva. and nobody said a word about forcing and shaming others into supporting anything.
While i am NOT someone who asks for community funds EVEN THO i don’t make ends meet, I still dont agree that you can be so harsh toward those who are WANTING to help. Not everyone who asks for help is begging, and not everyone who gives help did so against their will.
Perhaps this conversation, for you, is like the pedophile conversations are for me. in which case i will respectfully bow out.
HaLeiVi – thank you for the affirmation! I would want to jump in tho and restate that I think it would be a mistake to omit the explaining part. I think adults are mavens at leaving things unsaid when they shouldn’t. The reason i say it is important to be clear and verbal is because you can add all the “together time” you want and hope it will give the message you intend, but you never know what calculator the daughter is using. She may think you are giving equal time, or less time. She may think your hour at bed time isn’t quite parallel to the other girl’s 15 minutes at the library. It is important to just say, in words the girl will understand, that her spot is “set in stone”. Say it, don’t imply it. please.
Joseph – the point is that not everyone, not even the majority, are volunteering to give. People are asking others to give and then you would be actively turning someone down if you say no. That is not the same thing.
I kinda wish that we could all just go thru an application process to a major, huge hachnosos kallah fund who will distribute funds (no begging required) and will solicit funds as an organization. Wouldn’t that be awesome!