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I hear what you are saying, and while I agree with some of your premise, I don’t really agree with you(such as having “better” things to spend money on. I would bet we have very differing views on that one). What I meant to point out is that it seems to be hitting such a personal cord with you in regarding to the begging that the rest becomes cloudy. I do agree however, that seeing a “magiya li” attitude will spark that level of anger in myself as well.
On the other hand, just to throw this in, I have chosen to send my daughter to a very difficult college program that does not realistically allow her to hold a job and attend. Because of my unwillingness to use a tax loophole, we lose any fafsa opportunities even tho we cannot afford her program. We are using money we don’t have, borrowing, maybe even asking for help to get her thru this. And we need to get her a car (part of the requirements) and pay gas. If I cannot afford this, should I tell her to go find a job instead? If I ask friends for help (tho I never would) would that also be begging? Maybe she shouldn’t be going to college if we cannot afford it. Maybe she should just be happy at a minimum wage job forever and consider herself lucky for even having that.
I consider building a financial future for her to be a priority that I am willing to sacrifice for.
I feel the same way about building her personal future should she find the right one even if I cannot afford it.
gaw – while you may or may not have some valid sub points, I think the diversion here is your repeated use of the word “beg”. If they “asked” for money, “raised”the money, “borrowed” the money or “applied” for the money would it still be bothering you so much?
I don’t think anyone can make a wedding in a shul with turkey sandwhiches without feeling degraded but I do agree with the silliness of much of what is done today. That being said, not everyone who “collects” money for their wedding is “begging”.
newbee – although i do agree with you on one hand, i also believe that Hashem has been very clear with us that we should not be concerning ourselves with what others have. So while you are right, and that is where nature will take us, it’s a chisaron in us that needs to be worked on.
you call it the “real world”, I call it a continuation of the narrow mindedness I so often read on these threads. Not everyone feels this way, it is not a “global” problem, and it isn’t fair to make it seem like one just to excuse yourself for your thoughts. I would be so much happier if my son brought home a tzanua, kindhearted black woman than a tightly clothed, zumba-obsessed white woman. In the real “real” world it’s about the frumkeit, not the color.
I don’t agree that a person should wait until they can afford to get married, but I also don’t agree that people should go around collecting for their wedding. I have been asked to give money that I don’t really have to people who want to pay for a wedding/dira that I myself will probably never be able to give to my own kids.
I have NO objections to giving tzedaka to whomever asks, but I am just stating my opinion of the concept. When I got married we found anonymous donations in envelopes in our mailbox several times. I am very indebted to those who did that. If someone has it to give, then great. I don’t think I am capable of asking.
going along with what YesOrNo said (and I repeat his brochos to both of you) I think communication is key. I don’t know what kind of communication you have with your children but it would be beneficial to talk to your daughter about her being your flesh and not at risk of losing her “place”. In words she can understand – let her know that you want her to partner with you in making this other girl feel welcome. Let her know that it is really hard to share the people you love but that no matter how much you give to this “newcomer” it will take nothing away from your love for her. And let her know that you understand it sometimes feels hard or she may feel jealous so she can always come to you for an extra special hug. But let her know that when she is feeling like acting out it may be because she is feeling bad inside and she should come to you instead of acting out because you want to hear about how she feels.
These may sound “lofty” for a child that age, but truly they are feelings and thoughts she may surely have and she will get it. It can give her the assurance she needs and the safety net (knowing she is allowed to feel anxious and ask for an extra hug). These are conversations I have had with children that age on their level, and you would be surprised how much it helps them to know that they are understood, and are not “bad” for wanting their “life” back.
Children understand so much more than we give them credit for and so many of their difficult behaviors or anxieties come from things we never would think of discussing with them. It is great for them to learn to be in touch with themselves as well as connecting with an adult for support.
akuperma – absolutely right!
gosh franco, please don’t ever consider going into the mental health field.
definitely. doesnt it make sense that if you are working toward something it is easier to withstand the pain? If you follow a strict diet and lose some weight you will say it was worth it. What would you say if you followed a very strict diet and then gained a pound? You wouldn’t just be upset about the pound, you would say that all the suffering was for nothing! When we understand what we are striving for and why we are sacrificing our time, happiness, selves etc it makes it so much easier to focus on the goal and suck up the pain.
And yes, I see it all the time.
i don’t know who you are but i always wished i did. i think you and my husband would enjoy speaking. as long as he doesn’t see you talking during davening, he’s very makpid on that.
feel free to be a realist, i respect your honesty. but speak for yourself.
I am proctoring tests all week for kids who have accommodations that require one-on-one sessions(human scribe, extended time etc). the sessions are hours long and I am SOOOOOO bored!!!!
joseph – exactly!
you guys are soo off! speaking for yourself and your friends, fine. But to say that MOST would react that way? Or that they would feel it but not say it? Wow! Just Wow!
golfer – you are right about the increasing queries but, as I may have said elsewhere, nobody is indicating that they are coming here for an answer in place of asking a rav. it is just interesting to hear what other frum people have experienced and what they think.
I know someone who was in that same situation and i would bring two points:
1-those parents were the “hating” type in general so if not this it would have been something else.
2-they did get married and ostracized from their parents (but not siblings) BUT years later the parents realized that they were cutting off their proverbial noses and they made peace.
ah, just ‘chaped’! He is always talking about him. They seem to have some ongoing sports ‘thing’ going between them.
😉
?
yes, he just told me, lol. i hope he was using silverware.
thank you all for your caring posts. i think the thread took a wrong turn, tho.
i guess i can clarify a few things:
i didnt feel it was necessary to relay any more details of the story than i did, as it was already too long. What I meant by
She understood what i meant, and that i was still hurt, and hasn’t called me since
was that she understood what i meant and that i was still hurt. I didn’t include the whole exchange, which is why you may feel like it wasn’t clear, but that was why i mentioned that it was clear.
also, i am not agonizing over this friendship or hoping for resolution. the fact of the matter is that what this friend has ‘morphed’ into is not really anyone i have much common ground with and im more than fine with it as is.
My only point was to the now blocked poster, that her approach was incorrect and potentially hurtful. It is never your job to tell someone else that they are in pain due to inadequecies in their bitachon, or to make it seem like living a pain free life is just around the corner. I then brought my story in to show how far this approach can go, to the point that one doesn’t even need to take responsibility for themselves because everything is from Gd.
Oomis said it well (as she so often does) and i would take it even further. Not only do you not say “Hashem made me do it”, but i was hearing, “Hashem wanted this to happen to you”. There are productive ways to express these points and that isnt one of them.
oyy – 100%. It is not necessarily the book, it’s the attitude the above poster developed, very similar to that developed by others who read it. Many people don’t use it that way, as you said, and it is life changing. That friend is one of many, many examples people who seem to be using it as a hallucinogen and have done themselves damage (such as stopping medication). I referred to the book, but i thought i mentioned that it was the misperception of the lessons learned from it and the way they are disseminated that are the problem.
it’s hard to know for sure.
she called me one day and after a bit of schmoozing delivered a threatening message from someone that she knew i had no interest in engaging with (we do a lot of community work together with people with very complex situations). I asked her why she would pass such a message, why she would call on the premise of friendship with such a message, why she would deliver such a message knowing the implications (she knew that I now could not avoid confrontation by claiming I never got the message). each remark was met with something to the effect of “yup, kinda crazy” “yes, he can be unreasonable” etc. never seeming to absorb what i was saying to her so clearly (i believe it was very clear).
the next time she saw me was in passing and she said she’d be in touch, to which i responded, “about what, exactly?” She understood what i meant, and that i was still hurt, and hasn’t called me since.
so you have a good question, and the person she was before she become “free of pain and suffering” would have called me back that night to see if there was something she did wrong or something that needed to be rectified. The person she became (long before our interaction) is the one who shrugged sadly and walked away, seemingly hoping that i would learn to accept that all hurt is Hashem’s doing. it says to me that sometimes things get internalized to your outsides instead of your insides.
i am well aware that she still needs to apologize, but she who spent months and years internalizing that same book has absorbed the idea that everything is so thouroughly in Hashem’s hands that all she needs to do is sit and smile about it and pass on those words to others. There needs to be more with that. Trying to sell emunah and bitachon as an elixir that “frees you of pain and suffering” is invalidating all the pain of the people you are speaking to. That level of painlessness is so high up there that it is a dream.
Teaching the importance of emunah and bitachon needs to validate the pain and suffering, but at the same time explain the importance and benefit of perspective. Know that your pain is for a purpose and that there is always a bigger picture. Know that if you had clarity you would be free of this pain. Know that you are never alone in your suffering because Gd has only given you that which He KNOWS is to your benefit. Know these things and strive for clarity which will bring peace of mind. That is sooo much different than humming a mantra that your pain is all an illusion because everything is good.
i had a friend who talks exactly like the above post (read- memorized the same book). Then one day she did something very hurtful to me and knows im upset but never bothered apologizing. I guess she believes that it was Hashem’s doing and if i didn’t deserve it it wouldnt have happened.
always gave lots of talks about “not getting angry with the stick” but rather look at Who holds the stick. so i guess she used it the other way too. “Nothing in the world will effect a person of Bitachon, no matter what happens, cause he knows that everything Hashem does is for the good”. that means (to her) that even if she is the one who causes the bad, she owes no reparation cuz it was Gds idea and it must have been good!
Even great concepts can be bantered and misused…
A lisp is not a sickness. It is a speech disorder.
soo not the point…
Bubbie Tex – I am so sorry about your difficulties and pain. I am sorry you had such an awful experience.
As far as answering the question: “Why is it so?” I don’t think I can agree with many points in your premise that that is actually how it is. Especially saying, “suddenly no other man wants to “take on” her children, who are no longer considered blessings”. That isn’t fair. It is not as if you line up your children and a future chossen says, “eww”.
Not everyone is capable of raising teenagers they just met, not everyone can afford an additional 6 kids to their own 5, not everyone can jump right in to the parenting system that the mother insists on even if it isn’t working or is different than their own. Not everyone can handle taking on 4 new children when they can hug two of them but have to leave the house if the others are home alone (yichud issues). And what if one girl is rebellious and insists on dressing provacatively? It is not so simple. There are so many things involved in marrying someone with children, and to present it as if it is just a “non-preferred” status is not fair to all those men who are willing but unable.
I do believe your experiences are real, and will not argue that at all. I am just offering that (as I have seen from personal experiences with friends)the inferences may be incorrect.
B”H you found a prince after all!
cozimjewish – I wasn’t comparing not listening to music to pregnancy. As I clarified above, I was commenting on the potential implications of having a difficult time coping when things are not comfortable or in the preferred state. But I was trying to chose a more social-friendly way of stating it. Didn’t work I guess. And my comment about the mourning wasn’t directed at you, it was just a tongue in cheek response to the comment about keeping things in perspective.
So now that that’s cleared up (?) – I can’t tell if the concept is difficult or if it is just being dissected in the typical CR fashion, but…
Coping is a facinating skill. (I have the pleasure of working with kids who lack this skill and are working on developing it). Being without something; leaving our comfort zone; and being under pressure are all stressors that require us to use our coping skills (or methods). If two different unrelated things both set us off, it does not mean that the two things are related, it just means that they both require us to use our coping skills. Someone MAY be able to draw up the ability to manage in one situation even if they can’t in another situation, but sometimes they can’t. It’s not about what sends you “there”, it’s about what tools you have to get by once you get there. Depravation was the common factor i had in mind, and I believe perspective is 90% of my coping strategy.
Developing a “good reason” for something can really help get thru the stress of it, even if the “good reason” is just that you are doing what you believe is right without knowing why. We may not be able to mourn the bais hamikdash, but we know what mourning looks like and maybe feels like and we can try to internalize the need to mourn for Hashem’s house. The more we see a reason, the easier it is, sometimes, to cope. When I was in availus for my parents I missed several simchas. I had people trying to give me “jobs” and loopholes so I could attend. What they didn’t understand was that I couldn’t even think of attending a simcha. I was barely comfortable at my own son’s bar mitzvah. The closer we get to the source, the better understanding we develop of the things we are experiencing, the more strength we will have to make it through.
I think this is my favorite thread. I bet it hits 2000 posts.
a mamin – absolutely! I loved being pregnant as well and I never took a single day of it for granted. My comment was about the time period, not the idea of motherhood.
Here is my translation of my above statement: If something like not having music for a short 30 days is so difficult to cope with, than you may find yourself needing coping strategies to get thru a whole 9 months of living with or without more important/pressing/vital activities/comforts/things.
(If it needs to be dissected it just aint worth saying)
By the same token I could say that mourning for the loss of so many tzaddikkim, and knowing that if they had lived our world may have had hundreds of thousands of their decendents populating it so we mourn them as well, makes it very easy to live without music because who can think of being joyous with such a severe loss in our lives.
you must be male . . .
if you are seriously finding this that difficult just try carrying a child for 9 months…
What a great answer!
I have three shaylas (feel free to leave them until 2 am);
1) What’s it like to be “the” Joseph everyone talks about?
2) What percentage of those posters accused of being you actually are?
3) Do you find the whole thing somewhat amusing?
although I don’t quite buy in to all the hype about genetically engineered blah blah blah I am seeing more legitamate food sensitivities which can very well be due to all our food being so “played with”. Between the processing and radiation and whatever, who knows what the bottom line is. I don’t have celiac but if I eat gluten my head will hurt terribly and it literally makes me unable to function. I fall asleep and feel horrible even when I wake. Saying away from gluten has made me even more sensitive to it. And after a year without it I am noticing it starting to happen from eating other foods. It’s a huge “krich”, as my kids would say.
In answer to 42’s query, it may be vaccines, but I think it may actually come from homework and I propose we put an end to it completely to save the next generation.
lol OURtorah, I was gonna say that I have been reading his posts for years and haven’t let it change me a bit but your line was better.
I knew you would ask that by the way. I have a cheap non-smart phone in the house that sometimes can get ywn for reading but not for posting.
[and as an aside as soon as I saw this post I knew I had to respond so I ran to get out my laptop to do so. Meanwhile I was supposed to be looking for a pair of pants for my son who has to leave for school in 3 minutes . . .(case in point)]
oomis – I also can no longer eat gluten (or potatoes) and am constantly looking for options. This was my first gluten free Pesach and I thought of you often!
OH WOW! A thread dedicated just to me!!!
While Goq may be correct in many instances, let me give you another, hypothetical, scenario:
Sometimes, when someone in the family gets a drastic change in their work schedule and the other person is left to run the household stuff alone and they are just drowning in car pools, work, carpools, kids homework, reports and carpools, they sometimes put all the social obligations aside (“I would love to answer that email but I only have a second right now, I’ll save it for tomorrow” “Gosh, I should call so and so to say mazel tov on their daughters wedding but I don’t have a cell phone, maybe later tonight”) but then they literally fall asleep at their keyboard doing their work and never really finish their obligations, let alone get around to returning emails which are so piled up that it’s hard to face them. And when they feel down, overwhelmed or despairing about not being able to keep up with all their obligations but they don’t ever want to complain about their blessings, or they are just feeling embarrassed about not having responded earlier, it makes it even harder.
Not that I am saying it has ever happened to me, mind you. But that is just a hypothetical possibility . . .
joseph – that, by the way, is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing to support such a crazy claim. But then again, you are Joseph aren’t you?
my daughter went there. She really liked it.
zdad – I may agree with you in theory but in this case I don’t agree at all. I wanted desperately to move to Israel and had plans to do so for years. I have been blessed with seven sons and didn’t think I could handle even the thought of sending them to the army (emotionally, not even speaking ideology here). Ultimately, that had nothing to do with why we did not move but it was seriously on my mind, not knowing if my children would be full time learners or where their paths would take them.
Although I am free from that dilemma in regard to my own kids, I have many relatives and friends who have children in the army and I find it no easier. I cringe at every announcement of an injury and if we could have no army at all (no need for one) I would dance with joy. Yes, it is easier to let others do you “dirty work”, but these “others” are Jews who are putting themselves at physical and sometimes spiritual risk and I feel no comfort from that.
in which state?
I live in a small out of the way place called new york city. not many shops here. probably have to order online.
you have internet?
and just to make this personal,
I have written in the past (many threads ago) about how my husband was not only very newly frum, he wasn’t really even in a place I felt comfortable. I was dating guys who were full time in yeshiva and he had just started wearing a yarmulke months before. And he had not started wearing tzitzis yet. We worked together in a program for children with special needs and by the end of that month I knew somehow he was the needle in the haystack. We decided to get engaged without ever having dated.
To skip over the longer version, there was a lot of work to do to determine if I could possibly consider someone who still had a ways to go. Was he committed? Would he end up being who he planned to become? Could I wait patiently for certain points so he could adjust appropriately instead of jumping in with too much too fast?
These were some very valid questions and we worked very hard on finding the answers before getting engaged. It took a tremendous amount of self-awareness of who I was and where I was going as well.
In the end, he introduced me to aspects of our religion that never would have crossed the door in my religious education. So much of the spirituality that I never really learned about came from him. I am so much further along in my commitment to Torah than I would have even dreamed about if I had not married him.
I think we are arguing apples and oranges here. Nobody said we shouldn’t have a discussion about whether or not it is important to assess someones commitment to Torah. The objection, I thought, was more about the expectations of the commitment of a BT.
The op seemed to think being a BT might make him/her MORE secure but Sam was responding to Joseph’s post which sounded more like a statement that people generally expect they won’t be
If the phenomenon of bt’s being more likely to fry-out … is real, (I read his if as since, perhaps he did not mean it that way)
Seeing as negative expectations of people can have very negative effects, this statement can be destructive.
There is no reason we can’t have a conversation/discussion/argument about knowing when people are ready or knowing if people are committed, without making generalizations about what is “expected” from BT’s.
You know, Joseph, it aint the topic that is the problem, it’s the attitude. Coming on here and saying a BT is likely to go off as if it’s expected is disgusting. If you want to discuss it respectfully as a concept, then ask how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit if they are new and being considered for marriage.
Sam is right. If we cannot speak in a way that is encouraging and supportive, we are in danger of turning them away. And honestly, some of the attitudes turn me away and I’ve been frum all my life.
Of course being respectful seems, from what I read on another thread, to be the reason the CR isn’t exciting anymore but I’m willing to risk it.
newbee – (thank you so much for clarifying, btw)
That doesn’t sound like human nature to me, that sounds like really lousy chinuch!
Oh really? The concept of gilgulim and reward and punishment is simple enough for an 8 year old to understand? Than why do you seem to be having so much trouble with it? Why does everyone have so much trouble with it? Even in the way you tell over his words it doesn’t seem like you have found clarity, why would you think a child can understand this?
Newbee –
First of all, R Mizrachi was being illustrative, not literal, which is the very reason that I said before that these things cannot be presented in summary snippets.
While it is easier for you to hear “I don’t know” as a better option, there are many who find that answer sorely lacking.
Lastly, and I say this sincerely as an agree to disagree point, I could never consider it human nature to look at someone in any way because of who they may have been in a past life. I cannot fathom anyone who has the depth to understand that system to also be capable of such shallow thoughts. I think the idea of looking at someone with judgement of who their spiritual self may have been in a past life is ridiculous. I know you disagree, but it personally find it unfathomable.
Adding the dimension that they may be imperfect for the specific reason that they have almost reached perfection, and that you would never know which case applies to them, it doesn’t make any sense
newbee – Why do you keep saying criminal? suffering for sins in a past life does not have to mean murder or theft, sins can be sleeping thru shacharis, reading romance novels, telling dirty jokes. We are talking about spiritual perfection here. and if you are striving to perfect your soul and be closer to Hashem and you understand (on a simple level possible to man) what the rewards and punishments for that devaikus are, you would probably JUMP at the chance to be born without arms if you knew that it was your ONLY guarantee at a tikkun.
An autistic person can also be a neshama who has perfected most things and was given a privilege to come to this world free of obligations so that his chances of re-sinning are slight. Hahsem doesn’t just say, “You were bad! I’m gonna teach you a lesson and give you a rotten life!” – Hashem loves us and wants us to perfect ourselves. Hashem knows us as the neshamos that we are, from beginning to end.
If He believes that suffering can cleanse us here instead of after death, we should be thrilled at the prospect.
If He believes that suffering in certain areas is the only way to grow us into perfection, we should be thrilled at the prospect.
And if He believes that living a life that appears to our simple minds as suffering but is really a way to send us back to the Kisei HaKavod more complete, than we should be thrilled at the prospect.
The bottom line, though, is that Toi is 100% correct.
Joseph – I was not condoning what they do, I was reponding because it seems people are so unfamiliar with this topic and make statements that mislead. The oilam is NOT safe from abusers and their employers have NOT been careful to keep them away from children. Many of the shuls have NOT been cooperative in keeping them out of the bathrooms and the people who run the mikvas have NOT been careful to guard the children. The parents have NOT been careful to accept the danger that exists and watch their kids. If someone does not advertise the danger of these guys, NOBODY is out there taking responsibility for the harm they can do. I will not tell you I know what action is halachically appropriate to take, but don’t tell me it is rare, it is being addressed, it is taken seriously by the authorities, it isn’t as big of a problem as it seems blah blah blah.
If YOU are not aware of who the molesters are, and if YOU are not careful to keep your kids away from them, your children are NOT safe.