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many people send out invitations to the chupa and dancing but not for the meal. It has already been implemented, and even with driving, a simcha is a simcha. If you don’t want to go, the hosts will surely understand but if you do, there will be cake and fruit and a warm welcome waiting. Many people who ARE invited to the dinner opt out because it is hard to commit to a whole evening and the babysitting costs are high.
i feel bad about not being able to have everyone there, and i have included some of those i left out in the sheva brachos lists.
i have not read any of these posts and don’t plan to but i will say that in my house it is the mother who wants the cat and the daughter who is protesting.
our rebbes also stay til about 1 and then they have others hired for the non-limudei kodesh. recently the afternoon classes have been taken by rebbes who are teaching both, but they try not to send a class thru the same rebbe twice.
I don’t know what the afternoon position pays but I assume they are considered to be drawing two salaries this way.
there are excuses for anything our yetzer hora asks us to do. Not that I have decided whether or not that applies here, but that is a pretty lame response for something the rabbanim have spoken so strongly against.
nisht – you have an iPhone?! gosh, that sure adds a new dimension to your views.
is it an argument or a contest? you cant have an argument thats a contest because it can only be one or the other. obviously, if its an argument then it isnt a contest so it for sure can’t be a contest if its an argument.
how did an anti religious fellow get a copy of a private letter sent privately between members of a private group?
joseph – agreed. which is why i wonder about the sensationalism. i don’t think it only comes from the media, it seems (and i may be wrong) to be part of the presentation as well.
that is so far from true. so unfortunately far from true.
but you would probably have to be living in a city where there are more than two schools.
it’s kinda funny how not liking the force or ways that some of the chassidish communities have shown up in the news lately makes us anti chassidish and anti torah. Maybe we love chassidim but we legitimately take a different stand on some of these things. Can you accept that? I can’t stand this attitude that I must not really be religious if i can disagree with the way things are being done in KJ or williamsburg or wherever in london this ban is. sheeesh.
i was actually going to respond, thinking we were having a two way conversation. but then i got to the part were you said i was begrudging and i realized we weren’t.
equally opposed. this is the united states of america. everyone is entitled to a spot but the government funded public school system should be in english only with accomodations for other languages (and there are many, as there should be). When spanish speakers come here and learn in spanish, they are doing a disservice to themselves and anyone who ever needs to shop, work, go to the doctor or call 911. Yes, i am equally opposed. but only within our public school system.
yes and no. i dont think i am really disagreeing with her on whats important but i thought i was hearing her say that it is the states obligation. meaning, feel free to fight for it, like mentchen, but don’t consider it something they owe you.
On the other hand, no, i don’t think it should be fought for. I don’t think the public schools should pay to have yiddish classrooms taught in yiddish. and i dont want them to start teaching arabs in arabic either. if you have a high population of yiddish speakers, feel free to hire someone who speaks yiddish, but that is something different. If you want a religious education, go make one. get federal funding, but why demand it in the public school setting?
I don’t think chassidish men belong in the public schools, and i wish frum kids didn’t have to go either, but i dont understand making the public school build a frum program within their public setting. and i often hate the way it makes us look when we go demanding it.
do you think that anyone here gives yearly raises?
mammale – what you ask for is wonderful, and I hope you get it, but i cannot figure out why you think of it as a right. You can fight for it, you can win it, it will have been earned, but i don’t think it either is, nor should be a given. the public school system should not be providing teachers teaching in any language other than english and other than total avoidance of it, religion shouldn’t be brought to the classroom. you are talking about what you want, i am talking about what you are entitled to. i still hope you get it, but you are asking for things that nobody owes you.
I’m pretty certain there are no raises given time or experience.
in the Midwest of Chicago or other Midwest communities where tuition is much more expensive the rabbeim & teacher get paid more by a total different amount.
unfortunately, pure speculation. more than 40-50k? only on their wish list. I didn’t think tuition was higher but maybe it is. And tuition break is funny too. If you give me a 50% tuition break but with my income I would be on minimum tuition, you can’t call it a benefit.
nisht – i really think you are overreacting. He didn’t say that, and he said that he didn’t say that. I am really sorry but you cannot blame someone on the “outside” from wondering how a pure chassidisher with all the levush got a master in education when his community speaks out VERY STRONGLY AGAINST higher education. It DOES NOT mean someone thinks them incapable! It means that it is contradictory on the surface. I would be very curious ifyou told me a chiassidisher was teaching in a special ed school because I know it goes against his mehalach, not because I think he can’t. And this is really not a side point worth pursuing.
and in all honesty, I would sooner put a low functioning child in a special ed public school then have my husband work there.
ZD really said nothing of the sort. People do a lot of speculating on his intent based on expectations, it seems. He has been right on the mark with so much of this issue, that being a homogenous group in a public school does not give you the “right” to be taught with and by your kind.
I don’t think any group of students, regardless who they are, should consider themselves entitled to be together in a class and be taught in their culture. I think you are wrong in saying I would feel differently if, ch”v, it was my child because that just says what I would want, not what the school is required to provide.
Regarding yiddish speakers, my first thought was that those who speak yiddish tend to come from cultures/communities that do not allow further education. That being the case, my first question would be whether or not the person is qualified as a degreed teacher. If he/she is, indeed, qualified then I’m all for it. I don’t think you can blame someone for assuming that it is unusual for a chassidish person not to have gone to college. Second thought would tell you that perhaps it is a non chassidish yiddish speaker. Either way is fine, it is just what pops into ones head first thing. What if it was a yiddish speaking goy, or exchassid, no longer frum but repectful to the religion and religious. Would that work? Is it really about language?
I totally agree with every fiber of my being that you cannot compare autistic to non-autistic. No matter the level of function.
and lastly, I am hoping to get hold of that article, curious to read it. Thank you for recommending it.
in answer to the title, but not necessarily the discussion, i have a recording of a shiur Rabbi Orlovsky gave in 1990 or so where he is mentioning this very topic. He was specifically commenting on the pop bottles that have a hechsher and also have piictures of scantily clad women on the label. He said that when Pepsi was promoting Michael Jackson, the hecshers in Israel threatened to pull unless they had bottles without the promos but here in America we don’t consider any responsibility for the product, just the kashrus.
Having Yiddish speaking teachers and frum classmates in a class would be wonderful for yiddish speaking children, even just a frum, any language speaker for frum children as well. It would be a gift, but I don’t know that anyone could think of it as a right. I don’t see why a public school should be held responsible to fund or provide such a thing.
(I have only been skimming some of this thread (politics doesn’t interest me but special education does) so I don’t know that anyone said they should I am just commenting on the above post.)
I have worked in schools where the non jewish teachers have been very careful about providing kosher food and some even made brachos with the kids.
i wouldnt say a parent wont mind if their lower functioning child would be in a class where a different religion is discussed because he is lower functioning. But there are times when it doesn’t matter because religion is not brought up in any way due to the low function of the class. I know of parents in both positions.
cherrybim – the wife of Rav Yoseph Ber’s nephew was at my house today and I asked her about this. Her response was, “that’s a new one”
nisht – thanks for the info. Here the district may pay about $65,000 to a different district because that was the determined price of “tuitioning out” but they don’t actually spend that much per kid in house. They have so many more kids and staff tho, so it’s hard to know exactly. I think the outgoing payment is definitely more than they would have spent. The exception would be some of the really high needs kids, or the kids tuitioned to fancy private schools with huge price tags.
(Our frum schools don’t have sped so I don’t know what it would cost. I do know that any sped program opening would need to start by adding a room to an existing school so even $650,000 wouldn’t cut it.)
If you are talking about LD type kids who are generally serviced in the classroom but require a part time push-in teacher and therapists, that would be a lot cheaper but would probably never ever get approved for funding.
Sending kids to college is a expected result of a proper high school education
I fully disagree. The expected result is that the children graduate knowing a minimum standard of education (think no child left behind).
although it’s enought to make you throw up – the state of illinois has now imposed standards in the k thru 8 with the focus on college readiness.
I wish I was joking.
i would be shocked to find that it costs less for a special ed child to be educated by a private school, unless you are talking about adding a child to a system that is already n place.
I have been sitting thru countless meetings where parents (of all religions and cultures)are trying to get their children placed into private schools for any number of reasons and find professionals to fight their case. Sometimes it is in the childs best interest and sometimes it isnt. Sometimes it may be best for the child culturally, but that is not an obligation the state must cover. I don’t think language or religion are good enough reasons to make a state cover a childs placement if they can service them educationally.
Nisht – when you said that it is cheaper (from the situations you spoke of), do you mean that the amount of tuition alocated by their district is less then we would actually need for their education, or do you mean that the amount they themselves spend per kid when servicing them is less?
ZD, source?
almost anyone who works in special ed in any public school could verify that
nisht – oh haha! and thank you for proving mine! Which group did you arbitrarily place me in based on my stand on this subject? That’s exactly what I meant by denial. It can’t be true, so you must be modern orthodox. Or maybe “REGULAR” orthodox. But you surely aren’t one of us!
and i say your post is what people in denial say when they want the boogey man to go away
i read it over a few more times.
i’m well aware. but i stand by my rude accusation nonetheless.
i wear backless shoes all year and get snow in them all winter. sometimes my socks get wet and it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think it’s a kappara, i chalk it up to stupidity on my part.
yea, right. Even if you somehow wanted to defend the less yeshivish, you would have worded it quite differently. That sentence was not from your sincerity repertoire.
i dont know if you are being sincere or not, Joseph, but the sarcasm that seems to emanate from your post doesn’t help your cause.
ZD – exactly right
The real problem here, however, is not ????? or ??? ???. The real problem is that this is a total rejection of the sanctity of ???. The more a person bends over backwards to circumvent the ????, the more he shows that he views ???? as an onerous burden to be cast aside at the first chance.
you are correct but the problem is assuming that this is the case. As I said above, not everyone was raised with the same understanding of sanctity of Shabbos.
Not everyone who drives an RV to a racetrack understands all the problems that have been clearly attributed to them above. I remember a couple friends who were in Indiana University and proud to be shomer shabbos yidden (only ones on campus wearing kippas despite being harassed for it). When the little indy race came on Shabbos, they pre-paid their tickets and submitted them in advance and went to the race empty handed thinking they were observing shabbos appropriately. They would have been insulted by your take of their observance level because they never learned any different. We were taught Shabbos laws very differently.
the sad truth that you all don’t want to hear or know is that if those communities (and others) had a reputation for honest business dealings and honest use of public funds, there probably wouldn’t be half the opposition. Feel free to deny it but coming from the outside of those places, I hear what the “haters” have to say and it is a huge, if not primary factor. By NO means is this behavior from the majority of us, but when it happens, it hits the news, and represents us all. We need to be diligent in following halacha or we pay the price for everyone’s mistakes.
ZD – agreed, pretty much. I have seen more than a handful of kids who were OTD complain about the blurry line between halacha, minhag and personal preference. It is a serious concern across the board.
close, as in a close friend?
You are so right but I think it is not so simple. I don’t get invitations to weddings without knowing who it is, but I do get invited to weddings for people who I am not really in touch with anymore. People are very concerned about leaving someone off the list and hurting their feelings.
Now that I am making a wedding I have had to leave off a good chunk of people because I simply cannot afford to invite them. There are some people, however, who will feel very hurt by this and I feel obligated to spare their feelings over sparing my cost. And I am sure my disorganized nature has left me to omit many people I would have invited. I think most people know how hard it is to pay for a wedding and if the hosts stick to a list they can manage, people who are not invited will understand. And many people will be just as happy to have one less thing on their calendar.
joe – does that mean you aren’t coming to mine?
I’m kinda torn on this one. I agree completely that it’s none of our business. Completely.
But on the other hand there have been waaaay too many news stories about those types of things spilling over into expectations of the secular world in not pretty ways. (such as re-arranging airplane passengers to meet your wants, for one).
If you could promise me that this wouldn’t blow up into some chillul Hashem, unfair demands on the outside public or even people within the community who disagree being ostracized/mistreated as if they were desecrating a halacha (or those inside being raised to believe that this is a halacha then I’d be fine with it.
So these stories do set my teeth on edge but I also agree that it isn’t about us. Unless it’s made to be.
I don’t really read/watch outside news sources so I did not know anything about the frum angle of this story until I read it here. All I can really add is that I think you are wrong about some of the chillul Hashem comments in regard to their attendance. I am under the impression a chillul Hashem would involve non Jews, or those far removed, seeing a frum Jew doing something like this. The problem you may not realize is that many if not most would have no idea that half the avairos you all have so kindly tallied are even improper. Growing up as a more modern Jew, I had many friends who attended lectures/conferences on Shabbos by pre paying and not writing etc. and I never knew it was wrong until much later in life. If you told me this family used to be secular and they have made so many changes in their lives in order to keep shabbos, or that they had a more limited religious education to the best of their knowledge, I would be only impressed. I don’t want to discuss or know where they are holding. If they hand me a check I can research it myself, but so much of what they are accused of violating is not things many of the public would be noticing. And it may very well end up being lashon hora, pure and simple.
And for those who insist we need to show our love for Hashem by speaking out against it’s transgressors, first look thru your own backyard. We have many baal habatim and gvirim who are making money from businesses that feed basar v cholov to Jews, and other things who are honored and respected and their money is in many of your pockets.
Does this negate the actions of the above? No. But you are either fighting for shabbos, or you aren’t. And if you are fighting for shabbos, then don’t pick and choose which transgressors you find more offensive or public to make your case.
cherrybim – why would that bother me? I wasn’t expecting any gifts at all from people who are only invited for dancing.
it’s irrelevant whether or not you can know if one is exercising their bechira to be lazy. You can decide whether or not negligence still ‘counts’, and let Hashem decide when it applies.
When i leave the house ten minutes late and then go nuts because i am catching every red light, i don’t think it is correct to blame my suffering (catching every red light, coming in late to work) on Gd.
catch yourself – Thank you for those thoughts, I just don’t see myself saying any such thing to a rav. and i am not convinced he believes he wronged my friend. It was also a third person message.
Jewish Thinker – soooo well stated, and right on the mark!