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“one thing is certain, the info you (and many others) have — based on your conclusions and confusion – are all via the one-sided media version”
Um, no. IVe quoted to you from more than one state’s deceleration of secession.
“Many books and research have been written on the very core of the subject and is far from the scope of YWN comment to elaborate.”
Yep, ive read several, and am always happy to learn more. any you recommend?
“Basically, you should ask yourself/research the following before you decide that a) all confederates are “traitors”. b) The Civil war was ALL about slavery ”
I havent made either of those claims. And I explictly wrote that b wasnt true.Im unsure as to what the point s of your questions are But here goes:
“1) What are the constitutional terms of State rights?”
Article 10 “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”“2) What is the law and procedures regarding Headstones and burial for Confederate soldiers? (Did they receive the same honor treatments as reg. Union US soldiers)”
I suppose so“3) What is the law regarding pensions – did Confederate soldiers receive any USA pensions, as all soldiers receive? (Hint: US Public Law 85-425 sec 410)”
Until 1930 they did not get federal pensions
“If any of the two is yes, then outright “treason” couldn’t have been committed.”
Ok mazel tov.
“4) Was anyone (Jefferson Davis?) prosecuted for “treason” after the civil war (and if yes, by which law/account. Furthermore, search: ruling of US Supreme Court Chief Justice Salmon Chase)?”
No search “reconciliation” and contrast that with the approach of Thaddeus stevens and his Radical Republicans“5) Was slavery a constitutional right? i.e. PRIOR to the 13th Amendment.”
Yes“5) And lastly and mainly, does Secession = treason or altogether legal?”
Debatable, I say legalNow that IVe answered your (irrelvent) questions. Could you please answer the one IVe posed to you severla times Here it is again:
why did people drive hundreds of miles from Minnesota ohio oregon etc bringing along their swastikas. Do you really believe they just support southern culture? or states rights?“What side people fought for was mostly determined by their geographical location.”
that is often the case. But in no way does that change the ideology of a movment.
At the risk of envoking Godwin’s law. It is safe to assume most of those who fought in WW2 also was mostly determined by their geographical location.oops I was answering R4nd0m3x’s question not Rebyid.
“There are many undesired things which people do not refrain from saying, ”
Ok thats a new topic, why do people talk about undesirable things if it says al tiftach peh lesatan
I was just answering Rebyid’s question.See this related post though for an explanation as to why cancer is different
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-up-with-yeneh-machalahAl tiftach peh lesatan
Yoma 39b“It all depends from which perspective you are coming from”
Of course. Question.: do you believe the hundreds of people who drove hundreds of miles to protest the rmeoval of the statue were all supporters of southern heritage? where they all civil war buffs? I guess that explains why they carried swastikas, the battle standard of the confederacy? and shouted ssuch southern slogans as “Jews will not repalce us” and blood and soil”
“There is quiet a difference between “supporting the confederacy” and the ‘people’ of the confederacy.”
A stuate to the leaders of the confederacy doent support the people. IT supports the conferat movment and by extension what it stood for.“After the war they were still Americans and, generals like Lee were their leaders.”
Not quite, they lost their citizenship and the right to vote. Yes reconstruction was a tough time and their were conflicting views of how thee south was to be handled and amneties were granted. But at any rate you are kidding yourself if you believe the statue of LEe commemorates his post war activities. there is a reson why he is in unifrom.“Think about it — why NOW?”
These discussions have been ongoing for well over a decade.
Though you think about it there were clear spikes when these monument swent up. Why did they go up in 1990? is it a coincidence that this was the time Jim crow laws were being enacted? And what was going on in the 50’s and 60’s that led to a second spike?
(CNN has a timeline that helps visualize these clear spikes)“George Washington had slaves and so did Jefferson”
Yes as explained above, though that isnt what they stood for nor what they are memorialized for.“and so is the constitution ‘racist’.”
You do know that it was changed, right? Ie amended.“Are we going to take down Mt Rushmore and every leader until recent?”
Adressed several times. No only those who stood for or supported a movement that stood for slavery/racisim“Are we going to ban all studies from anyone who ever supported slavery (e.g. Aristotle)?”
I’m not sure what you mean. The issue of ill gotten studies such as those done by Nazis is an important issue. But I dont understand how it applies here.“You have to know how to differentiate between real hate and what was simply a cultural issue”
ditto. so I ask you again why did people drive hundreds of miles from Minnesota ohio oregon etc bringing along their swastikas. Do you really believe they just support southern culture?
“Anti-Nationalism, Pro-globalization, Anti-Religion, Anti-Right ”
I’ll give you anti-right. But how is opposing rebeliion “anti-nationalist or pro gloglization” and what does religion have to do with anything?Avram
I agree completly
the reverse is also an issue. Peopel have to know the signs of real emergencies like Stroke/Heart attack for which Urgent care is not the appropriate place either.Urgent care is for non-life threatening urgent care. Something that you would otherwise go to primary care doctor for but they may not have appointments available soon enough.
The advantage is for these non-emergency visits colds, other minor infections like UTI’s, sprained joints etc, the wait is considerably shorter.
jdf007
Of course not every individual soldier fought to keep slavery. That was what the Movment was. Much like you correctly identify not every continental soldier fought because he was opposed to “taxation without representation” OR every Nazi soldier hated JEws. OF course many had a sense of adventure, did what their neighbors were doing etc. That doesnt chaneg what the ideology of the movment represented. surprisingly you answer this question correctly regarding the revolutionary war but have trouble following the logic through.
so to answer your questions:
“Can you really imagine someone without a decent uniform,…. just to keep some strangers in slavery?”
Sure! though nobody says that was the motivation of every soldier
“Has anyone else around the world volunteeered to fight and die over a strangers slaves, or is this uniquely American?”
It may be uniquely American. (as far as the specific issue of slavery goes)“If people didn’t want to fight for their own independence, their offspring are going to fight for others slavery?”
I dont really understand this question. This may surprise you, but the Americna Revlution DID in fact occur. And Idotn understand the offspring connection“I’m not even going to ask the rhetorical about why people in the northeast didn’t run at the opportunity to fight in the war if they were so opposed to slavery either.”
Im so glad you didint ask it. Since it is such a foolish question.
(It would have been weird if you did ask the question since youd be using contradictory argument sto support your strange assertion namely: the fact that people fought which who would fight over someone elese’s slaves and the fact that people tried to avoid it since why wouldn’t they fight if they were so opposed to slavery)
But just in case someone else may ask the foolsih question. there are probably a million and one reasons why people dont run to join war. Not the least of which is that their may be a risk to life and limb.“Recent statue removing has nothing to do with trying to eradicate discrimination ”
Obviously. IT is symbolic of course it doesn’t actualy eradicate racisim.
“its simply a … Anti-American act ”
Lol. ISnt supporting the confederacy the utmost “Anti-American act”“who still can’t take the defeat by the rednecks. ”
You need to brush up on your history. The rednecks lost the civil war” Some of these statues are over hundred years old.”
that should read “few”There seems to be some confusion over thsi issue
LEts let the south speak for themselvesFrom Mississippi’s deceleration of secession: “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. ” it lists several other specific points including “It advocates negro equality, socially and politically,”
See South Carolin’a
which includes several lines such as “have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery;”Yes ultimatly if the South remained in the Union the war may have been delayed. But slavery led to secession and secession to war.
APY
“So, when does the wrecking ball take aim at the Jefferson Memorial. He was a slaveowner too”
Is that his claim to fame? Are we commemorating Jefferson becasue he was a slaveowner? Or in spite of it?
The south stood for slavery. that was the prime reason for the Civil war (although there were other factors) this is explicit in the decleration of war
The comparison is laughable.
The Comparison to Arch of Titus falls flat too. The ITalian Government didnt erect the arch nor are they supporting it in their public square. IT is a relic. nobody is saying any mention of the South shoudl be scrubbed from museums. Onthe contrary they BELONG in museums.1. You should work on that. That is an extrme reaction to have after youve woken them all up preparing ofr a play by shrieking. And they want whats best for you they are concerned for your well being.
2. ” It is normal behavior for babies, for example, but I never call the cops on my neighbor who has three screaming babies.”
Ummm yes exactly. it is normal behavior for babies. IT isnt normal beghavior for adults. sure people fight/practice plays/get frightened by spiders/have the TV on but that wasnt what this sounded like to the OP.
3. Sadly he cant. IT doesnt work that wayLB
The wordign in that paragraph is poor.
If you look at other paragrpahs on the same FAQ
for example:
: “.. The problem is that the sun’s surface is so bright that if you stare at any portion of it, no matter how small, it produces enough light to damage individual retinal cells. It takes a few seconds for this to happen, but afterwards you will see a spot as big as the solar surface you glimpsed when you look away from the sun at some other scenery. Depending on how long you gazed at the sun and how badly the retinal cells were damaged, this spot will either fade away in time or remain permanent. You should never assume that you can look away quickly enough to avoid eye damage because every person is different in terms of their retinal sensitivity, and you do not want to risk being the one who damages their eyes just to try to look at the sun. …”You will see that staring at the sun is ALWAYS dangerous.
An eclipse causes less dammage than the ful ldisk of the sun, but is more liekly to happen“If I were practicing for a play and got interrupted by the cops because my neighbor called them, I would never forgive that neighbor. One of us would have to move.”
1. how would you know which neighbor?
2. Really If there was “shreaking” you would fault your neighbor for calling the police?
3. IF a person wasnt practicing for a play and broke a limb lost their eyesight or lost a baby (all of which I and/or collegues have seen) would they forgive their neighbor for not calling?“But the problem here is – all the guy heard was shrieking.”
that it no way argues wit hwhat I said “If you think someone is in danger call the police period. End of discussion”If he thinks the shrieking was because they wwere praxcticing a paly, thenyes I agree dont call the cops.
Though even there, there isnt much harm if he does call the cops
cops “hi we heard shrieking”
Shrieking neighbor “oh ha we were practicing for a play”
cops “ok try to keep it down next time have a good night”The end and they all live happily ever after
DY
If he thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” should he ask his Rav?
If his Rav says not to call, and he thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” should he listen?
3 weeks later if he again thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” shouold he rely on his Rav taking care of it or should he call?I agree (and I beieve Ive satted it before) if he doesnt think “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” there is no reason to call
Shopping613
“reality the radiation from looking at the sun it twice or even triple the normal ammount”what is your source for that?
“Which doesn’t mean that it makes any sense ”
when you wrote “I also appreciate your explaining where the other posters were coming from and why they responded as they did” and when you asked “Yekke, I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread,” shows thatyou didnt understand (or you missed ) what multiple people explained multiple times
“If the OP thought there was immediate danger, why did he post to the CR instead of calling someone who could deal with an emergency? Do you think he didn’t have kavanah that day in Shemoneh Esreh?”
Maybe.
Maybe he doesnt understand that the issur of mesira doest apply in EVERY situation
Maybe he is afraid “If nothing is going on that will make living next to him uncomfortable”
Youre going to have to ask him.” it is an ongoing situation. It happened 3 weeks before and then again the night before.”
LU
I (and most posters ) understood the question an being during the shrieking. This is apparent form most responses. And becasue the police would hang uop the phone if you tried calling that you heard screaming the previous night/last week“He is even doubtful if there is any physical abuse going on at all.”
Im not sure you now what “doubtful” means. Doubtful means it may be hapening which means she may be in danger“He also apparently has not seen any signs of physical abuse.”
That is usually the case.Oiveyizmir
Please skip LU’s last post her advice is halchicly wrong and can lead to danger. Its well written and sort of sounds reasonable, which makes it all the more dangerous.Here is the bottom line:
If you think someone is in danger call the police period. End of discussion.Few (if anybody) disagrees with this bottom line.
OF course if you are certain nobody is in danger then follow her post.LB
“Not staring towards the sun is difficult if you’re driving and it’s right there. ”I dont understand this. in the afternoon the sun is overhead. Why are you staring up while driving?, look at the road., and in the evening/morning when the sun is low down why dont you use the sun visor to keep the sun out of your eyes? You shouldn’t ever be staring at the sun, and certainyl while driving as itcan be blinding.
M Gold
“I never here of a problem with sun glasses you should not look at the sun and I did it already multiple times looking at the sun with sun glasses ”
Ok, so now youre hearing it. dont look a the sun ever without protective gear. It has harmful rays that can burn your retina. IT doesn gain these rays only during an eclipse
“now with the eclips everywhere there is a warning bot to look at it even with sun glasses only those special eclips glasses”
Becuase there are millions upon millions upon millions of people that will be staring at the sun tommorow. On a regular day people dont stare at the sun as a. there isnt much to look at and b. the sun is too strong to stare at.
Tomorrow, the sun will be weaker making it easier to stare at and more interestingThere is nothing dangerous about being outdoors during an eclipse
Staring at an eclipse isnt more dangerous than staring at the sun on any other day.The problem is that msot days staring at the sun isnt interesting so you arent tempted to do it. (plus it hurts, while as an eclipse occurs it hurts less since the sun is partially covered which of course makes it LESS dangerous than staring at the sun on any other day but easier and more compelling to do so.)
Bottom line. Dont stare at the sun without eclipse glasses, not today not tomorrow nor any day.
There is no reason to cancel your appointmentLU
“I also appreciate your explaining where the other posters were coming from and why they responded as they did:Multiple people explained that to you multiple times
LU
“Also, asking sheilahs too much is not generally a problem”My neighbor whose house burned down disagrees.
BTW my Rav finally called back and said I shouldnt call since Firefighters are all gazlanim and would rob him. Its sure good I didint call
,“He spoke the truth!”
Who spoke the truth and about what?“This Rep. from Tennesee named Cohen wants to impeach Trump because of Charlottsville.”
Mazel tov“Now why don’t you move there”
Mostly becasue my family is here.” and take all your liberal Jews with you?!?”
this may surprise you, but Im not in charge of all the liberal JEws“You could live in his district with all the black people”
All the black people live in this one district? interesting. Id love to hear some more of your theories“which was not the case in that thread)”
We are probably talking about different threads.
At any rate, no need to revisit it here. You asked how taht thread was relevant here. I and Yekke answered“he certainly was not referring the white supremacists as fine people.”
here is a rule of thumb: IF you are at a rally full Nazi/KKK guys an you stick around you are not a “fine person”
Its amazing how Almost everybody including both the ” Liberal media” and most mainstream Republican leaders such as senators, and even the alt right like David Duke managed to misunderstand him. But you were able to penetrate into his secret thoughts looking past his initial reluctance to condemn the Racists, his delayed condemnation and then walking it back the next day. Everybody but you and a handful of others realy get him.
You love quoting Rav Avigdor Miller. what was it he said about supporting a President who had the support of neo-nazis?
“The Antifa/Black Lives Matter/Extreme Left-Wing have killed multiple police officers and other innocents.”
At charlotsvile?
“He said that within the rally there were NON-white supremacists/NON-NN that are nice guys and were there to only protest the removal of the monument.”
If you are along side Neo nazis you are not a “fine guy” period. Even if it is a rally in support of pizza. IF it is a neo-nazi rally supporting pizza, “fine guys” arent found there.
And this was a “unite the right ” organized by and for neo-nazis it wasnt a civil war history buff rally. PEople didint drive hundreds of miles out of love for southern heritage. You are deluding yourself and misrepresenting what this rally was.“What’s his svara?”
the sevara isnt hard to grasp. Im fairly certain most people are more awestruck by a solar eclipse than an ocean, mountain, comet, let alone thunder/lighting.
Of course the sevara not to, is that chazal didint mention it. plus as pointed out it may be a siman klala.
” I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread, but I think that thread definitely demonstrated that there are many people who need to work on their realization that it is important to ask sheilahs!”
“Im ein daas, havdalah minayin.”
you dont need daas “ask sheilas” you need daas to make a differentiation between when a sheilah is appropriate and when it isnt. Of course it is sometimes appropriate to ask, but it often isnt and knowing that distiction requires daas.“Funny, that’s exactly what I heard from Pres. Trump.”
Then you missed his entire speech. Including the part where he said both sides had “nice guys”
David Duke also liked the Presidents’ comments “Thank you President Trump for your honesty and courage to tell the truth about Charlottesville”so thats Joseph, Health and David Duke who are thanking Trump for his honesty. Anyone else?
Two statments you made are without question false (the rest of it was false too, but I suppose you can quibble)
“Both sides were equally wrong in this case. ”One side drove a car into a crowd of the other and killed someone. They are not equaly wrong. Yes beating is bad, MAce is bad pepper spray is bad but murder is worse.
“The fact that one side were Nazis is not really relevant–it would be just as bad if one side were Yankee fans and one side were Red Sox fans.”
IT is relevent. IF we were dealing with Yankee and Red Sox fans then saying that both sides had some “nice guys” would be true. and we can point out that while it got out of hand and both sides had soem bad people both also had good people.
When one side is Nazis, there is no such thing as a “nice Neo-Nazi”
“Regarding predictably and siman ra, I recall the Maharal in Be’er haGolah ”
Yes he does. As do others
It isnlt completly clear that the “likuei” in the Gemara there refers to an eclipse/ although most understand it that way, the obvious difficulty is that eclipses are predicted wa yin advance which makes it funny to view it as a siman Ra (though not impossible)
I believe R’ Yonossan eibeshitz wrote it refers to sunspots.
“The Orthodox Jewish community…stands firmly behind you.”
Please speak for yourself. While I know of many who deluded themselves into thinking Trump would be different once elected, or felt that even with his baggage he was better than the aternative, I have not met a single person who stands behind (let alone “firmly behind” ) a person who would describe any Neo nazi as a “very fine person” These are people that Hillary rightly called a “basket of deplorables” those who call deplorables “fine people” are themselves deplorable
“What would happen if he threw a pillow at her & she shreaked?
Do you also think cops should be called?!?”I dont understand the question. If he knew it was from a pillow obviosuly not.
why do you ask? Are you starting a new topic?“Your comprehension is failing you – as you get older!
I was then going back to the OP.”So it wasnt failing me. that last line was a non-sequitor* (see below), as I said. It had absolutly nothing to do with the sentence that immediatly preceded it .
*”A non sequitur is a conclusion or reply that doesn’t follow logically from the previous statement.”
“Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.”
wait, so when sombody is missing it is also assur to call the police?
Otherwise your comment is a non-sequitor. Mamele was responding to LC’s critique that police werent called in a kidnapping situation. She replied that callign police earleir wouldnt help. You agreed then added “Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.” which leaves me puzzled, what halacha would have been violated had police been called earlier (again I am not saying ti would have helped)
yichusdik
“Yelling and screaming doesn’t necessarily constitute “raglayim ledavar””nodod yhere suggested callign eveytime yo uehar yelling a nd screaming (though the OP said “shreaking”) the discussion is what to do if you hear yelling and screaming and suspect soemthing “terrible is going on” but arent sure.
“is to be near certain you have cause for alarm before calling the police”
the exact reverse is true. yo uhave to be near certain NOT to call the police. If the police show up and turns out it was the TV after all what do people think will happen? (Im really asking waht is the harm in having police stop by, how many people do you think get arrested because they were auditiong for a play or had TV or even had a non-violent arguemtn and neighbors called the police thinking the worst, is there even one example of such a thign happening? IS this such a real concern? )
IF the police dont show up it wasnt the TV…“Isn’t the molad when the moon reappears?”
No. IT certainly doesnt refer to the visible new moon. the generally accepted definition is it refers to conjuction as you put it when the moon is at 0%. soem say it is a few moments after when the moon is “new” however the moon remains invisible for some time after the molad. (See R”H 20b where the Gemara says how long after the molad the moon remians invisible as understood by Rishonim there)
See Rambam kiddush hachodesh 6:1
בזמן שעושין על הראייה היו מחשבין ויודעין שעה שיתקבץ בו הירח עם החמה בדקדוק הרבה כדרך שהאיצטגנינין עושין. כדי לידע אם יראה הירח או לא יראה. ותחלת אותו החשבון הוא החשבון שמחשבין אותו בקירוב ויודעין שעת קיבוצן בלא דקדוק אלא במהלכם האמצעי הוא הנקרא מולד.LU2
“But why assume that his Rav is wrong and that the police should be called? ”
Because the consequences of the Rav being wrong or infinitly worse then the consequences of follwoing the halcha and calling the police.“I think your theoretical situation may need more details.”
but you dont get more details. There may be a fire. period. What is the halcha, call or dont call?
“In this case, there is time.”
This sentence proves what IVe said above. (*)“Another very important – you and others are assuming that the Rav is an idiot who doesn’t know how to add 2 +2.”
Im not. (though that may be the case) Im assuming that like you (see above) he doesnt recognize what a danger dometic violence is.
“Why take the OP’s feelings about the situation at face value and not his feelings about his Rav?”
Becasue of the consequences of ignoring his feelings in both situations
I and colleagues have seen busted eye sockets, fractured limbs, lost vision, and miscarriages as a result of domestic violence. Some (admittedly few) have been among frum people. I live in NY where it is likely people heard commotions, but didnt call the police. Either because they didnt want to get involved, they assumed it was the TV, or perhaps their Rav told them not to or they assumed “there is time to ask”
If you think someone is in danger dont call a Rav call the police.
I think you agree with the above statement.the only argument is how much danger is the person in, and is it worth taking a chance to find out
LU 1
“it has to be a certain level of safeik.”Obviously. As the op said “…sounds like shrieks. It is scary to think what is going on. … Last night again I heard loud screaming and shrieking from inside. I think I might need to take matters into my own hands and call shomrim or police. …. I am sure that something is going on.”
Thsi isnt a lost purse that might have something that somebody might need. This is a person right here right now who might be in danger. there is no reason to call a Rav. If the Rav got the psak wrong it is assur to lsiten to him.
“I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently.”
I dont think so . I think the main difference is people either not recognizing (or caring) what a danger domestic violence can be (and is!). (see below*)
““Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention”
Obviously! If the OP had written I hear shrieking it sounds like a child is really excitedby a present she got or a woman is surprised by the diamond necklace she got, should I call the police? OF course nobody would say yes.“Do you consider what you’ve written a serious response? I can’t tell”
Well this is a silly discussion
There is no need for a Rav, and if the Rav gets it wrong there is no excuse to violate a LAv and say the Rav told me too
As I posted before
It is quite simple:
I have a simple question for the OP:
Do you think somebody MIGHT be in danger?There are three possible answers:
1) Yes (this is how I understood the OP)
definitely call the police. (Is there anyone, besides for Joseph, who disagrees in this situation?)2) No – (I dont see how this fits with the OP)
I agree dont call the police. IF there is no chance anyone is in danger3) I dont know
This response shows a misunderstanding of the the question was “MIGHT someone be in danger” if you dont know then the answer is Yes. See above for the appropriate actionLU
“I think that you were talking about different situations than I was.”
the situationis where yo udont know (see above)
If you see smoke dont know what it is (and cant investiagte for whatever reason) what do you do?
It is the same here. as you correctly pointed out.Yitzchokm
“I really don’t understand this argument.”
Me neither!“The op originally asked a rabbi. If the op isnt going to listen to the answer, why ask?”
I don’t know why he asked. This is something we learn in cgeder when I learnt mishnayos yoma.“The question is do you listen to Halacha or follow your gut in order to feel better. Is Op a frum Jew? Isn’t this obvious?”
Of course it’s obvious! My rav (the one doing research whether I should call the fire department) told me the beach’s on Apple is mezonos. I’m pretty sure he s wrong.
But for some reason people here seem confused. And are bringing irrelevant pesakim from rav elyashiv about what to do AFTER abuse has occuredJoseph
I am not doubting the pesak.
I am asking if that was regardign after the fact, or while the child is “shreaking”?
joseph
“Posek HaDor Rav Elyashiv zt’l paskened,…”
Is that during the fact or after?
Did anybody ask Rav Elyashiv if there is a fellow alone with a child, I hear shreaking cioming from the room, can I call the police ?Would anybody really hesitate? I doubt anybody would dream of asking such a sheilah. (where it isnt practical/possible to go in yourself for whatever reason)
This isnt complicated.
I have a simple question for the OP:
Do you think somebody MIGHT be in danger?There are three possible answers:
1) Yes (this is how I understood the OP)
definitely call the police. (Is there anyone, besides for Joseph, who disagrees in this situation?)2) No – (I dont see how this fits with the OP)
I agree dont call the police. IF there is no chance anyone is in danger3) I dont know
This response shows a misunderstanding of the the question was “MIGHT someone be in danger” if you dont know then the answer is Yes. See above for the appropriate actionJoseph
“the majority of states have adopted preferred arrest policies that require police to either arrest one or both parties at the scene”
Yes, dozens of people get arrested for having heir Tv’s too loud. and for “Shalom Bayis issue some couples unfortunately regularly have that’s non-violent” and you acuse others of distorting facts?
LU
“there is a reason that the OP called him; he wasn’t sure whether or not the case warranted calling the police,”maybe becasue he there is so much confussion about the non-issur to call police when lifes are at risk, that he thought he had too. I called my Rav when a fire started in my neighbors house a few days ago. (Im still waiting for a call back, my Rav is looking into it) that doesnt mean I was right to call the Rav
“Again, there is a reason why the Rav is the OP’s Rav and not the other way around. Yes, he is not infallible and he may be wrong, but he also may be right.”
Aside from My Rav looking into the above question. I asked him what bracha to make on an apple he says MEzonos, is he right? Should Istart making mezonos on apples?
“You misunderstood. That clause was a continuation of:…”
I didnt misunderstand, You dont understand the implications of your position. while yes there is a definite possibility that nothing is going on, there is also a definite possibility that soemthing is. In such a case the halacha is straight forward. If the Rav doesnt know the halacha that is his problem (and the poor potential victim).
“Yes, it is assur to call the police if it’s not warranted, and I’m sorry if you can’t understand that.”
no need to be sorry, but the OP thinks it may be warranted. LEt the police make that determination.“regarding the fire example, that is a clear-cut case of pikuach nefesh”
As I mentioned before, what if You dont know? what if the buildign may be empty? what if everybody inside may be dead. There is a DEFINITE POSSIBILITY that there is no pikuach nefesh.“screaming ”
it wasnt screaming it was “shrieking” and yes I dont call eveeytime I may hear screaming, but if a person thinks there might a problem he should call the police.“A better example to your fire example might be if you smelled smoke on Shabbos”
that example is just as good as mine! If you see smoke pouring out of your neighbors house r”l do you call the fire department or ask your Rav to look into it.
What if you see smoke and hear shrieking? Maybe its their TV or they are having a play.“But affiimitive action is structured in a race way.”
True, I dont necessarily support affirmative action for that reason. My point was the idea of “giving privileges” to some “more than others” isnt necessarily wrong.
that said, there is some truth to the argument that those communities are better served by having doctors/police/teachers that reflect their makeup
LU
“For one thing, it may not be a “black and white” situation. In fact, it sounds like it probably isn’t.”Of course it isnt black and white. thats why he needs the police to go investigate.
IF there is a burning house on Shabbos you call the fire department. Even if it isnt black/or white if someone is inside.” There is a definite possibility that someone is not treating someone else in the family they way they should be”
Is it a possibility that someone will get badly hurt or worse?” (and last time I checked, there was no such thing as a perfect family)”
I dont know how this is relevent. I have nver heard “shrieking” from next door nor have I wondered if anyone was in danger.
” but it’s not something that warrants police intervention.”
How can you be sure, the OP seems pretty conflicted, and is sounds like he suspects that police intervention is warranted.” However, once they are called in, they could create problems.”
If nothing is happening, how do they create problems? what are you worried might happen“More importantly, I have known of situations in which there really was no problem and the family was as close to perfect as most people get, but once the police were called in, they created a lot of problems for them.”
Again, what problems, Ive seen police called many times. IF the woman doesnt press charges, there sint much they can or care to do.“But our job is not to be naive, to be aware of the potential results when calling the police and to exercise caution before doing so.”
Sure. dont call for every dropped dish. but if you hear yellign and shriekign and are worried there migth be adangerosu situation call the police.” That is why there is a halacha of mesira. It is precisely because the secular authorities might not do things the way the Torah warrants.”
that is not why there is a halacha of mesira. Though this isnt a case of mesira.
and as for wha tthe Torah warrants “Lo saamod al dam reicha”“Affirmative action?! Affirmative action –…. Affirmative action means to give jobs and other privileges only to them – even when it means discriminating against more qualified people….. Such things are absolutely unfair. ”
not necessarily.
How does a college determine who is qualified? The typical way is a test. Give the test (SAT) to everyone and the one with the higher score is assumed to be more qualified.
Now is that the best way to determine who is qualified?
IT certainly depends on what the “qualification” is. Say the college values hard work. Who worked harder to get a 1400 on the SAT. The white kid who grew up in a stable home, had parents pay for his tutors everyone he knows went to school. Or the inner city kid who grew up with a single mother whose brother was shot by a rival gang who would be asked to babysit siblings instead of going to school, while his mother worked 2 jobs. And struggled and finished high school and was able to get a 1300 on the SAT ( This is a real person I know).
We would all agree (I assume) that the second person worked much harder to get where he is. Why doesn’t that make him more qualified? again it depends on how you define “qualified”And furthermore, isnt it better for society, to help people like this out. He is a doctor now the odds off his kids growing up the way he did, or end up lik his brother are almost nil.
(I would structure it in a non-race way though as there are white kids who grow up that way too)
“So he obviously thinks that there is a definite possibility that it’s not pikuach nefesh and that there is no reason to call the police.”
anything is possible.
I would assume if he heard gunshots everyone would agree to call the police (maybe not Joseph because as an excellent thread points out he is Joseph, and as he explains he isnt “liberal” which I suppose in this scenario means worried about victims?)
IS it possible that she pulled a gun first and he was protecting his life and there is no longer any danger? sure!
but I think all agree it is best the police determine that.Halacha tells us what to do in cases where ” there is a definite possibility that it’s not pikuach nefesh” and also a possibility that there is.
question. There is a house on fire on Shabbos. Im not sure if anyone is inside, if they were inside maybe they got out, if they diditn getout maybe they are dead already. Can I cal lthe fire department? Must I? (there is no risk to any other house and yes that isnt exactly how the mishna presents it)