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ubiquitinParticipant
LU
“Bottom-line: be very careful about making any assumptions in either direction.”LEts go through the worst case scenarios if he makes the wrong call
a) Nothing is happening and he calls the police – Police show up say they were told there was screaming he says no look its my TV they say oh maybe turn it down a little have a nice day
the only thing that might get destroyed in this scenario is his relationship with his neighborb) something is happening and he doesnt call the police – Id rather not spell out the worst case
ubiquitinParticipant“You framed it as Lo saamod. If your Ruv says it’s not a issue of lo sammod, than it isn’t.”
So my Rav finaly got back to me he said I shouldnt call the fire department. (He says they will steal the silver)
Do you agree with his psak?“A fire can spread and destroy a city block. This isn’t analogies at all”.
domestic abuse can destroy a person.“You have two options.”
Wrong. there is one option if someone if he is ” sure that something is going on..” at least in halachaJoseph
“His shaila about “lot of raised voices” that the OP — after hearing those sounds — is still uncertain “if nothing is going on” was already given a psak”
reread the OP “I am sure that something is going on..”
As an aisdie how wil it destroy the family. The OP doesnt mention if theri are kids involved. If there arent the police hsow up, ask if everything is ok. Even if it isnt ok, if there is an adult it is still up to her whether to press charges. Nobody is getting ruined and somebody might eb getting saved.
Lo Saamad al daam reiacha.
This one is straight forward
Next question.ubiquitinParticipant“That’s where a Ruv comes in. And if he decides it’s not an issue, then it’s not. The rest is irrelevant.”
My neighbor’s house is on fire. Im not sure if I shoudl call the fire department. I left a voicemail with my Rav I’m waiting to hear back.
Anyone here knows what else I should do?
not everything needs a shaylahIf you are ” sure that something is going on.” There is no shaylah.
ubiquitinParticipantI dotnunderstand the question
there is a lav “Lo saamod Al Dam reicha”
IF you think soemthing bad is happening it is assur for you to just do nothing.YOu can either go there yourself and see if you can help, or a better/safer idea for all involved is to call people who’s job it is to investigate these things and have them investigate.
Doing nothing is not an option
ubiquitinParticipantFor the real answer there are 3 main differences:
chasidishe shechita:
1) uses only chasidish shochtim
2) they have an extra person who checks the chalaf
3) they remove feathers from the chicken’s neck before shechting to avoid chalada. (Rema says not to do this, others disagree)ubiquitinParticipantiacisramma
He is referring to the fact that I view Schlissel chalah as a (relatively) new innovation since there is no old mention of it. Taamei Minhagim s a very recent source and while there are some slightly older mentions of schlissel chalah there are none more than about 300 years old despite the vast number of texts we have that predate that.
He is troubled by my skepticism.
there is a thread or 2 about that.
August 3, 2017 10:05 am at 10:05 am in reply to: “There is no solution” to the Israel conflict: Jared Kushner #1331390ubiquitinParticipantNetiquam Erro
I couldnt agree more. I have been saying the same for years.
The only thing that worries me is how long can the status quo go on. 10 years? 50?
Especially given world opinion shifting more and more against Israel.Plus there is a corroding effect that ruling over millions of hostile people has. while necessary given the reality and that ther eis no alternative it is still morally corrosive.
I recently saw an Israeli documentary “the Gatekeepers” it is an interview with 6 former heads of shabak. I highly recommend it It was absolutely excellent and is related to this last point, which while it might make some uncomfortable is still an important point
ubiquitinParticipant1. All of the above
2. A, B, C, E
3 A, B, D , E (a little bit of C depends what you mean by “Security situation”how did I do?
August 2, 2017 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm in reply to: Should the frum world create an alternative to “Footsteps” for OTD support #1330912ubiquitinParticipantPG
” happen to think that reform is not a viable option. Reform is NOT the same thing as becoming MO and wearing a blue shirt and getting an accounting degree or whatever,”I agree one hundred percent. And (probably) most chasidim would agree if you asked that way (im not sure, but Many if not most would agree)
The bottom line is that is the received message
For example there are some chassidus that believe Zionism is yaharog Ve’al yaavor. (this is a non-controversial stament and an argument about zionism is completely irrelevant to this thread) Now imagine someone from that community gets caught up in Zionism and for whatever reason is swayed by Zionist Arguments (maybe from the coffee room). He was taught all his life that the beliefs he now accepts are yeharog ve’al yaavor. Whether that was meant literal yor not is completely irrelevant. He has now embraced a belief that he was taught is among the worst avaira possible. Is there any wonder if he decides that he might as well not keep kosher?Again of course if he would ask his chasidish parents,”Hi I am zionist now, do you think I should still keep Kashrus?” They would likely say yes. But that isnt usually how people leave their upbringing. And as they start to leave it sint like their parents will say “ITs ok that you are zinoist now just be sure to keep all the other mitzvos” Nor should they be saying that, they woudl (rightly!) do everything possible to keep their child on their derech.
It is the same for college or as ZD says even changing the LEvush. Chasisim were able to keep their strong mesora, precisely by elevating it to such a degree. However IT does come with a cost . And I am by no means judging whether that cost is worth it or not, but it is there.
August 2, 2017 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm in reply to: Should the frum world create an alternative to “Footsteps” for OTD support #1330827ubiquitinParticipantMamale
“what percentage of Chasidic OTD parents disown their children for becoming OTD (not simply going to college)?”
It isnt about disowning per se. and yes the tide might be turning.I’m concerned I’m being unclear
My point isnt what would happen if a chassid left. Im wiling to bet, that any parent when faced with a choice of their son leaving their derech would rather they remain observant. But it isnt presented that way, its not like A kid tells his parents, ok Im going to Colege, do you still want me to keep Kosher and wear tefillin?
The question is what attitude they are receiving.Chasidim are taught that their way is the only derech and other segments arent really observent.
The same way in our circles. It is rare for Yeshsihvish people to leave the fold and become Reform. People who leave generally leave completly.
Why is that? IF Yeshivish society is too “restrictive” just be Reform and go to Shul at least 3 days a year. It is because we dont view Reform as a “less restrictive” form of Judaism. ditto for chasidim and MO.Again not all, and this isnt necessarily a message that is actively given.
August 2, 2017 11:19 am at 11:19 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330760ubiquitinParticipant“Which “we” aren’t living longer?, You’re using statistics taking into account drug dealer and other black on black criminal violence.”
thats partly true. Though they are US citizens too.
however even for US whites the life expectancy is 78.9 Yrs is lower than most developed countries“Which other countries have a plethora of hospitals to compete…”
Please try to avoid vagaries.Again compete regarding what Not many think of Bellevue as a “best hospital” yet for trauma they are the msot advanced (there is a reason why it is Bellevue and not Cornell that has an OR on standby when the President is in town).
For a bad burn r”l skip Bellevue and go to Jacobi or State Island University hospital. I cant help but notice that none of these hospitals are on your list of the “best” that you listed.
Of course it is possible that when you take everything together those hospitals are “the best” given a composite of bench marks but you cant judge a basket of apples based on the best apples. We have to look at the overall system. I will grant that it is possible that our “best hospitals” (as judged by outcome, etc) are the better than other countries.
Nonetheless our infant mortality is the highest (and you cant blame this on black on black crime)
our mortality ammenable to healthcare is (by far!) the highest
Ill accept the possibility that those hospitals have better infant mortality than the World average, that dosnt chaneg the fact that AS A WHOLE we do worse.CTL
I didn’t mean she should get one from Physical therapist. I meant she should be able to ie it is a systemic problem that we have so mcuh red tape to get people the care they need.Again I dont know the specifics. But As an Internist in NY I have ordered many walkers and commodes (though not wheelchairs) I wasnt aware that Medicare varied by state.
August 2, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am in reply to: Should the frum world create an alternative to “Footsteps” for OTD support #1330715ubiquitinParticipantTLIK
You are preaching to the choir.
Im not saying the attitude I mentioned is true, nor is it universal.
It may not even be a conscious message that is delivered.
But it is one that is received.
I speak from first and (mostly) second hand experience. There are many in the chasidic world who would disown their children if they went to college even if they “remain as kadosh and tahor as those who work as klai kodesh”
This makes organizations like Project Makom all the more important, and is precisely why they exist!
But it is also why they have a harder time recruiting than say FootstepsAugust 2, 2017 10:22 am at 10:22 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330703ubiquitinParticipantJospeh
There are specific things we are good at. for example mortality after stroke or Heart attack are the lowest.
I’m not saying we are the worst in Every regard.
I dont think these specific benchmarks, that we do excell at, translates to “best health care”August 2, 2017 10:15 am at 10:15 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330688ubiquitinParticipant“The US has the best doctors, the best hospitals with the best doctors and medical equipment.”
Again what does that mean? What is the point of the “best doctors..” If we arent living longer.
IF I tried to market to you a new cure for colon cancer.” ITs the absolute best !” I insist
The first thing you would ask me, ok are patients living longer? ” oh well no,”
you might go on to ask ok less side effects? “Nope, just the opposite”Is it cheaper?
“No, But it is the best! ”
You would rightly decline to stock that drug.You say “The best doctors”
in what way best bedside manner?
In this regard we actually do pretty good (see the report I referenced) though still not the best
Of course if by “best doctor” you mean the most in dept this is correct though not usually considered a marker of “best doctor”“The best hospitals?”
again in what way? Least preventable errors? no in that regard we among the worstAugust 2, 2017 9:21 am at 9:21 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330593ubiquitinParticipantCT Lawyer
Im sorry for the distress you are going through.
there arent many geriatricians, and even less gerontologists. which is likely why you are having trouble. if R”L she needed an orthopedist I doubt the wait would be that long. And more to my point, if a medicare patient needs an orthopedist I dotn think the wait is longer than for a privately insured patientYour example highlights just how broken our system is. Obviously I dont know the specifics of your situation. But Seeing a gerontologist is (almost) never medically urgent. I understand that there are bureaucratic hurdles to get equipment that she needs for which she needs to be evaluated. But that just highlights how fractured our system is. why does a pateitn need a physician to determine she needs a walker or commode, a Physical therapist should be able to make that detemriniation?
At any rate, why not have her see an internist who certainly can make that detemriniation. while you wait for appointment with geriatrician?
August 2, 2017 9:01 am at 9:01 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330584ubiquitinParticipant“The US has the best healthcare system in the world”
In what way?
“Better than whom?”
Than the US.
see the recent “Mirror, Mirror 2017: International Comparison Reflects Flaws and Opportunities for Better U.S. Health Care” put out by the Commonwealth fund they compared the US, Australia, Canada, the UK, The Netherlands, France Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, and New Zealand.the US has the worst care both overall and in almost every category they looked at.
Of course they didnt use vague terms like “best healthcare” they looked at specific benchmarks:
including care process, equity, Access to care, efficiency and of course outcomesSee the report it is freely available online.
If you have data that indicates that the US is “the best” please define in what way, and I’d love to see it
August 2, 2017 8:40 am at 8:40 am in reply to: Should the frum world create an alternative to “Footsteps” for OTD support #1330579ubiquitinParticipantZD
“It started with a bang and seems to have fizzled. I dont know why or the specifics, ”It is because most chassidim dont view Modern orthodox as a lighter form of Judaism, they are raised to believe it is all or nothing.
So if a chassid is going to throw away his upbringing, ie go to college, what is the point in still keeping some restrictions, he isnt going to be Religous anyway, (since he is going to college, maybe not wearing a shtreimel) he may as well go all the way.
It would eb like asking a OTD from the Yeshivish community “why arent you at least reform?”
OF course not all feel this way, but many if not most do.
August 2, 2017 8:15 am at 8:15 am in reply to: do you support repeal & replace obamacare? 🚫🔀🤵🏿💉❓ #1330566ubiquitinParticipant“Single payer countries have notably longer waits for specialists than the US.”
Again, longer than whom? certainly not longer than the uninsured.
Of course, your data isnt completely accurate. See the recently released “commonwealth fund international survey on health” Both Germany and France had lower wait times than the US (Though the US was better than other countries in this regard (though neither are true single payer systems, but there are very few in the world so I assumed you were using the term more liberally)
Of cours ethe US DOES have single payer health insurance for those over 65, and I am not aware of any delays in treatment in that group
And besides, what is the harm in waiting a bit longer for a non emergent visitHowever, if the thought of waiting really distresses you, the (main) reason waits are so long is to keep down costs. We can spend more than Canada does have extra specialists, likely stil spend less than we do and have shorter wait times than Canada does.
huju
” and the care is just as good”
that should read “The care is better”ubiquitinParticipant“What do you mean when you say the actual molad is 11 hours before what is announced in Shul?”
The real molad is the lunar conjunction, that is when the sun, moon and earth are in a striaght line (though not necessarily in the same plane). The molad they announce in shul is an estimate based on the average. the average is taken to be 29 days 12 hours and 793 chalkim. In reality sometimes it is a bit longer and sometimes shorter but we take the average and this is what the calendar is based on, and what is announced in shul. (This isnt controversial
For Elul based on this average the Gabbai will announce the molad of Elul will be Tuesday 8/22 10:44 AM. (The time announced is in Yerushalyim, in NYC the announced molad will occur at the same moment in time but given the time difference it will be 7 hours earlier at 3:44 AM
However the real molad (ie lunar conjuction, when the sun, moon and Earth are in a striaght line) will occur at the time of the eclipse (ie this month they WILL all be in the same plane) which will be at 2:44 PM NyC time 11 hours before the (estimated) molad announced in shul
ubiquitinParticipant“Exactly. Looking for black and white is a symptom of being very literal minded.”
I don’t follow. I am saying it is NOT literal. Isn’t that the exact opposite of being “literal minded”
“To you there are two choices, either literal in the fullest sense of the way we do practice it today or non-literal, and it is code words to be deciphered like a dream and has no relation to what it says.”
Literal is a word it has a definition. “taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.” (Google)
It’s opposite isn’t “falsehood” the opposite is figurative. When I say I have butterflies in my stomach it isn’t literal. But that doesn’t mean I’m lying. I just mean it in a different way than the literal words mean.“Otherwise, we wouldn’t have these discussions by the Ramban down about why Yakov married two sisters”.
Dy addressed this above.
“means that although the Maamar Chazal means exactly what it says”
It doesn’t. Nor can it.
“And yet, they still didn’t keep Teffilin the way we do. ”
Great so we agree!
“Yes, they literally kept the Mitzvos, but not all of them were practiced the way it was spelled out later on.”
You JUST said they didn’t practice refilling the way we do.
So
If they figured out Teffilin that means they knew the reason for it. They can then choose to fulfill this idea in whatever way made sense in those times.”
Sure! So they fulfilled it in a non literal way.
“Teffilin d’Morei Alma are very real, ”
Where did I say otherwise? Again the opposite if literal isn’t fake.
“it doesn’t just mean Chazal found a cute way to describe the fact that Hashem loves us”Why bot?
If you can’t wrap your head around this it’s because you are too literal-minded”
Are you unclear as to what literal means?ubiquitinParticipantthank you!
However the issur of drinking wine with goyim isnt limited to makom michiraso per se, even social drinking is assur eg see bach 112 in goy’s house always assur in Jew’s house muttar only if Rov Yisroel
Though you are still right.
I did some research over Shabbos
Rambam Machalos issurus 17:10 says beferish that the issur to drink at Goy’s party applies even to yayin mevushal
The beis yosef in 112 says Rambam who goes on to say if Rov yisroel muttar, B”Y says his source is that Gemara where we see their are instances where social drinking with goyim is muttar, namely if rov yisroel. But he makes no mention of it being allowed becasue of yayin mevushal.bottom line though is as youve said, Yayin mevushal has nothing to do with drinking with Goyim. The shach must mean exactly what you say.
thanks again.
ubiquitinParticipantWTP
dont sell yourself short, your words do have much value.
And you definitely can make a definitive statement of what chazal meant. they said al peiros haiilan hu omer borei peri haeitz. Im willing to bet you are one hundred percent certain of what this means. And that is without being a Rishon or achron. (of course yo ucna be noteh your daas if a rishon learns differently than you understand the mishna)Note at no point did I claim to definitive knowledge of what chazal meant. Hlevi made some allusions, you can discuss it with him. However what is certain (or at least shoudl be) is what it does NOT mean. The gemara Halevai cited about the Ribono shel olam wearing tefilin, does NOT mean He literally wears tefilin (would you put in probably in that sentence?)
Similarly Im not sure why you need to be a rishon to know that Avrham avinu was not a kohein/yisroel/levi melech who divorced his wife and had a ben sorer umoreh etc etc…ubiquitinParticipantiacisrmma
thats becasue we follow the Rema that we say Kiddush LEvana through half of an average halachic synodic lunar month. Halichly a lunarmonth is taken to be 29 days 12 hours and 793 chalakim this is the time between molad to molad. Half of that is 14 days 18 hours 396.5 chalakim. this is how long after the molad one can recite Kidush LEvana.
If you add this to the time to the molad ie Tuesday 10:44 AM + 14 days 18 hours 396 chalkim (22minutes) = Wed Morning 5:06 AM 22 minutes (though note that is Yerushalyim time) this is the last time for kiddush levana according to the RemaNow that I think of it y question works according to the Rema as well as we can see with our eyes that the actual molad occurs 11 hours before the one metioned in shul. why doesnt this change the end time for kiddush levana
ubiquitinParticipantSo I lloked it up over Shabbos turns out The Beis Yosef says that unliek lunar eclipse a solar eclipse has no bearing on sof zeman for kiddush levana
ubiquitinParticipantI have a question on a Shach I hope someone can help me with
in 123:6 in hilchos yayin Nesech on the Mechaber who says Yayin mevushal is mutar the Shach in 6 says “Even drinking and even lechatchila it is mutar to drink with goyim” (my translation)
The halachos of drinking with Goyim are in 114 because of chasnus, I do not recall Yayin mevushal being allowed there. The issur of DRINKING stam yaynam is also becasue of chasnus so the two arent completely separate. But there even beer is assur with Goyim, seems strange that yayin mevushal is more kuladig than beer and also I didnt see nayone there mention it.
Am I reading the shach wrong?
Thank you
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=54ubiquitinParticipantI though It would be a discussion whether the eclipse effects the time for kiddush levana
Assuming Kiddush Levana can be said until 16 days from the molad (Tur and MEchaber)
ie based on our calculated average molad which for chodesh Elul will be Tuesday 8/22 10:44 AM (in Yerushalyim ie 3:44 AM in NYC) which ordinarily would mean Kiddush Hachodesh can be thru Thrusday 9/7 3:44 AM local time in New York.
does this change if see see that in that month the Real Molad is Monday 8/21 2:44 PM in NYC Ie the time of the eclipse. Does that mean if waiting to the last minute does a person have less than the usual 16 days for Kiddush LEvana (according to Tur/MEchaber), that is only until 2: 44 PM which of course would mean the last time is Wed night 9/6 instead of Thursday night 9/7?Regarding a Lunar eclipse, the Beis Yosef and Pri migadim say that even if there is more time later, Kiddush LEvana can no longer be said. Does this apply to Solar eclipse as well?
I am not sure if the poskim discuss this definitely not as much as lunar eclipse which is more common)I wrote this quickly my times might be off and are for illustration purposes only)
ubiquitinParticipant“But you do this in the name of not wanting to take the Midrashim literally.”
I dotn know what that means. I am just exploring what appears to me to be black and white yet people seem to struggle with it for whatever reason..Look at this thread. how much back and forth there is over an issue at the crux of wish there isnt much (any?) debate.
I am making a simple straight forward assertion (again to avoid confusion: ““Es taryag mitzvos shomarti” and the Gemara that says that the Avos kept “kol Hatorah kulo” does not they literately kept every mitzvah.””What throws me off Even those who agree still throw in qualifiers, like “probably” or try to to redefine kiyum hamitzvos.
Look at Tefilin it is the perfect example. do you beleive the Ribono Shel Olam Litereally wears tefillin? I assuem you do not. Is that becasue “you do this in the name of not wanting to take the Midrashim literally.” ?
You claim that
“Your response to that was again to toss around literal or non-literal.”
Yes, because that is my point.” Which means that the attitude towards such a Sugya, rather than to see what the Maharal or other Sefarim explain, is to say it’s not literal. But that doesn’t teach you what it is.”
That is not what it means. In fact, the opposite! IF something isnt literal that means it needs explanation to explain the metaphor. If it IS literal case closd. The Ribono shel olam takes tefilin puts it on his head every morning. R”L . it is precisely because it isnt literal that it needs explanation.Imagine you speak English but arent a native speaker. If I say “I have a butterflies in my stomach” Thats pretty easy, You might wonder how those butterflies got there, but the words are straightforward. IT is only when you think for a second and say wait a minute, that cant be literal butterflies would die in the high acidity of the stomach, I wonder what he really means, it is precisely becasue it is non-literal that it needs further explanation.
I ma not sure why you view something as being “non-literal” as dismissive.
ubiquitinParticipantAvram 2/2
“If one Kohen Gadol “steps down” and another Kohen Gadol takes his place, is the former man still Kohen Gadol?”In most respects yes. It is a mishna in megilah among other places “ein bein kohen gadol sheavar lekohen sheshamash eleha par yom hakipurim veminchas haeifah” (forgive me if that sint verbatim, that is the gist of the mishna)
“You’ll go back and forth with Health dozens and dozens of times, but I get this? ”
My back and forths are due to a strange sense of curiosity I get when Something is obviously black yet someone insits it is white. That the Gemara isnt literal is as clear to me as can possibly be. I find it curious when people insist it is literal and come up with all sorts of strange notions to back it up (wore tefilin by meditating with sticks?!).
arguments over whether gray is more black or more white dont excite me too much. Is it possible nobody there actually views the Gemara as literal, sure that discussion (over whether such a view exists) isnt as interesting to me)” but I don’t get how you say they could not have fulfilled the mitzva, since they did have access to a kohen.”
Maaser is given to a levi “ulivnei levi hinei nasati kol maaser…”
IF it isnt given to a ben levi it isnt maaser. I believe the Torah never changed (“lo sehi machlefes”) at al times the mitzvah of maaser is/was to give it to a ben levi. did they try to be mekayem as best as they could. sure! Did they give soem form of maaser? sure!. where they mekayem the mitzvas asei of giving maaser? Sadly no.“I personally am much more bothered by misplaced certainty than uncertainty.”
Oh me too!ubiquitinParticipantAvram 1/2
“Ah, now the goalposts are moving”No goal posts are moving. I am saying one simple straight forward statement namely “Es taryag mitzvos shomarti” and the Gemara that says that the Avos kept “kol Hatorah kulo” does not they literately kept every mitzvah.
That is all I am saying.
.
“I understood your original statement to be that you are bothered by people who believe the Avos somehow literally kept all 613 mitzvos,”Yes (though Im not really bothered, I find it amusing/curious I was turning a phrase by DY when I said “bothered”)
“a feat that is technically impossible for a single individual to do, in any historical period, since certain mitzvos are dependent on identity, place, and time (e.g., an individual cannot both offer the pesach and pesach sheini). ”
Yes that is part of what makes it impossible.“This is a very strange notion, ”
It is a strange notion. Which is why I find it amusing/curious.
“. That notion, however, is quite different from an argument that the Avos kept the mitzvos the way we do today, or rather, the way our forefathers did in the days when the Beis Hamikdash was standing. If you want to switch your argument to that, then fine, we agree.”
Im sorry I dont understand this paragraph. Here is my notion again: “Es taryag mitzvos shomarti” and the Gemara that says that the Avos kept “kol Hatorah kulo” does not they literately kept every mitzvah.”
This inst literal for several reasons 1) as mentioned nobody can keep al mitzvos
2) Some mitzvos never happened accoring to Man deamor (ben soreh umoreh ir hanidachos)
3) some are tied to a specific time
4) Some are in specifi instances like Get
5) Some arent logical that they kept like writing as efer Torah
etc etc
But this is a side point. My main point is “Es taryag mitzvos shomarti” and the Gemara that says that the Avos kept “kol Hatorah kulo” does not they literately kept every mitzvah.”ubiquitinParticipantHalevai
“Hence, your issue is that you are actually extremely literal.”
I’m not sure why that is an issue. As I put it to Avram, my position is pretty straightforward
“”Es taryag mitzvos shomarti” and the Gemara that says that the Avos kept “kol Hatorah kulo” does not mean they literately kept every mitzvah.“the Medrash was given to study not to dismiss.”
At no point did I dismis it.
“We see a strange Maamar and we understand that it is something deeper than what meets the eye.”
this maamar doesnt sound strange at all. I t actually seems straightforward to me. We all say we are shomer Torah umitzvos, even though we dont literally keep all 613 mitzvos. I dont get confused everytime somebody uses that expression (that isnt to say that is all the Gemara means, just that it isnt so perplexing necessarily)
ubiquitinParticipant+1
ubiquitinParticipant“(I took “bullet points” literally I think it makes it easy to read keeps it short and to the point while covering the key information)”
So I met MalkiTzedek the other day, (he is really old) can i give him pidyon haben money? and If I do am I mikayem the mitzvah of pidyon haben?
“that does not mean they did not keep the mitzvos.”
I never said otherwiseBTW Avram if you are still reading, note WTP who correctly points out that we agree, still says “the form PROBABLY differed from the literal sense that we are familiar with now.”
ITs this hesitency and equivocating that throws me off.ubiquitinParticipant“Ubitquin, no. I would not the meaning of either word if I had not been told.”
ah, but that wasnt my question
Here is my question again:
You had said “In Hungarian “exit” is “kijárat”.”
I replied and in Amharic it is “መውጫ”My question is: do you really not see the difference?
ThanksMore to the point though you said “I would not the meaning of either word if I had not been told”
But you were told that both “kijárat” and “መውጫ” mean exit . would you say those two words are now on equal footing equal or is there some difference between the two?Or another example if you were taking a train in Poland and wanted to get off at “Kraków” would it be the same as taking a train in India and getting off at “ਮੁੰਬਈ” ?
ubiquitinParticipant“It means if we didn’t have kohanim we would do piyon haben either”
I know what the words mean. I dont get what you are getting at.
Yes I agree they kept the Mitzvos that they could. Ie not all 613. I thought I was clear on this” I don’t know why you think it’s far-fetched.”
I think that they wrote a sefer Torah and remembered what Amalek did is far-fetched. dont you?
“Does anyone disagree that they ate matzah on Pesach?”
not me.WTP
“but there was a concept of kohanim”
“concept of Kohanim” arent kohanim. I f I redeem my bechor with a big tzadik who I say fullfils the “concept of khanim” you would say (correctly) that I didnt do the mitzvah“Mechiya amalek”
I didnt mention mechiyas amalek, I said Zechiras Amalek, which we can (and do) do in the literal sense, but I dont beleive the avos where able to. (Yes as DY points out because it was impossible, otherwise they would have done it)
” I would suggest that perhaps the Avos were able to fulfill the mitzva in a non-literal sense”.
Again, so they did int literally do it.
ubiquitinParticipant“They did exactly what we would do if we didn’t have kohanim.”
I dont know what that means. We do have kohanim. and If we didint (or if a person doenst have a bechor) then he is never mikayem the mitzvah
“The best example of them not keeping kol haTorah kulah is Yaakov Avinu marrying two sisters,”
“the best” is subjective. While it is a good question since you cant use your cop-out “They did exactly what we would do” I think the best is the Mitzvah to write a sefer Torah and a close second is Zechiras AMalek.
I suppose you can say that Yaakov wrote a sefer Torah but didnt pay attention to the words and Avrham “remembered” what the a nation that hadnt been born yet did.
But those are very far fetched. Though arguably guess these mitzvahs fall into the category of “where the ability to do the mitzvah isn’t there”But I dont think I at any tiem disputed that
“without rejecting the gemara.”
I dont reject it either.ubiquitinParticipant“’m sure you do, but the only supporting example you brought was that thread”
Sorry, I didint record the conversationg in real life.
” which wasn’t really a good support.”
I disagree., as do you see below.” And again, the strongest assertion that was made was that the Avos followed the mitzvos the way we follow them today. ”
Yes and that sint true. For example we are mikayem pidyan haben which the Avos didnt as there were no kohanim.
Im confused are you saying nobody there said this ?“You and the Wolf need new acquaintances, that’s for sure!”
Agreee” However, you seem to think that posters in the thread you linked to above are making the same point, which is not the case.”
Read my discussion with Halevai, on that thread. As I understood him and he seemed to be understanding me he was arguing that the Avos literally kept the entire mitzvah. At no point does he say he doesn’t literally mean the entire Torah.Again if you think i misunderstood him. Im not that invested in this, that isnt really my . Fine Nobody on YWN ever understood that Gemara as being absolutely true in a literal sense.
Ok I accept.
ubiquitinParticipant“Not a single poster in the thread claimed that the Avos literally kept every single one of the 613 mitzvos”
first of all, I interact with people in real life too.
Secondly “Not a single poster in the thread claimed that the Avos literally kept every single one of the 613 mitzvos”not quite, as you identify one poster who DID claim that, read through it there were few others as well. Granted when shown how it couldnt be literal he changed hsi mind (others less so) if not for people who it “bothered” and corrected him, he too would still have the misconception.
” giving terumos to a kohen and then eating them in a pure place as a kohen.”
when I mentioned that to an aquantance who insited the Avos literally kept the Torah he brought a Rayah from a befirish Rashi that Yaakov did in fact do that.Though the Rayah turned out to be from “Im lavon Gart ves Taryag Mitzvos shomarti” (too people not think that Rashi is well known?) He called me a Kofer when I said that Rashi (and the midrash he was quoting couldnt be literal)
He wasnt the only one.ubiquitinParticipant“Are you sure that the “people” who bother you really mean “literally” in the absolute,”
Yes. Ive encountered many people who insist that the Avos litteraly kept all the Mitzvos and I am a kofer for poitning out that it isnt possible
See this thread
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/academies-of-shem-and-ever(though nobody there called me a kofer)
July 27, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm in reply to: What Happened With Ezras Nashim In Boro Park On Monday Night? #1327146ubiquitinParticipant“Is it a sport among medical “professionals” to bash any and all other medical “professionals”?”
No.
ubiquitinParticipant“suppose they were going to some Catholic event?”
Ok. I’m supposing it. Ok so what?
“I personally do not know why any Jew would want to go to Europe unless he had to”
Mazel Tov. though this isnt about you“As for japan, you then get into the safek…”
Some scientists are now saying that not every day is Shabbat.At any rate
I asked you a question:
You had said “In Hungarian “exit” is “kijárat”.”
I replied and in Amharic it is “መውጫ”My question is: do you really not see the difference?
ThanksubiquitinParticipant“If you’re bothered by my using the term “entire””
Im not.
I’m bothered when people say that they literally kept all the mitzvos.WTP
“6 of the mitzvos on your list are ones we cannot do today either.”
So the Avos, didnt do them. We are down to 607 that they could have kept“And according to chazal no one ever did the mitzva of Ben Soreh Umoreh,”
606“The mitzva of maaser is attributed to Yitzchak Avinu”
Who did he give it to?“Yehuda and sons did a type of yibum.”
A type of yibum isnt yibum““Im Lavan garti, vtaryag mitzvos shamarti””
Its an expression. nobody in history literally kept taryag mitzvos as pointed out before (some mitzvos are only to kohanim some are only non-kohanim). all the more so without a beis hamikdash sanhedrin etc…
I started going through all the mitzvos, there arent many that they could have literally kept (nor us for that matter). Yet I still claim to be a “shomer torah umitzvos”
1- Pru urvu – IS machlokes if Avrham had a daughter. IF he didnt then he wasnt mikayem (as we pasken like Beis hillel).
2 Bris Milah – not for the first 99 years of Avrhom’s life
3- Gid Hanashe – ITs possible though passuk sounds like a new restriction
4 – Kiddush hochodesh – Needs beis din
etc etcubiquitinParticipant“but what about instructions?”
Nope
” Would you know that “wyjście” means “exit””
I woudlnt, but as I get off the train, I just followed the crowds. And the next time I might recognize that “wyjście” means exit regardless how it is pronounced. However if in India and I encounter crowds exiting at a sign that says “ਬੰਦ ਕਰੋ” I do not think I would recognize that sign later on.
” (in French it is “sortie”, which requires a bit of thought but can be connected to English)?”
Id love to hear that thought. And I would really love to meet the guy who can figure out French on the fly, but cant figure out that the crowds getting off the train are probably exiting.
“FYI, in Israel street signs are written in both Hebrew and English”
Yes! exactly ZD’s point. Because if a person doesnt recognize Hebrew letters he’d be hopelessly lost .“In Hungarian “exit” is “kijárat”.”
Very good!
and in Amharic it is “መውጫ”do you really not see the difference?
ubiquitinParticipant“you quoted my qualification but ignored it.”
I’m sorry about that
I commented on that too, but for I guess deleted it leaving behind the mysterious word “Anybody”
Glad we agree.ubiquitinParticipantDY
“Who? It’s stated in Chazal. Some meforshim say not in the precise form as after matan Torah, but they don’t argue with Chazal.”
Anybody.
Of course they didnt literally keep the entire Torah.
sippur Yitzias mitzrayim?
Michiyas amalek?
writing a sefer Torah?
building a mishkan/beis hamikdash?
appoitning a melech
Giving a get?
Yibum and chalitza?
Ben soreh umoreh?
doing the Avoda
Giving Teruma/maasros?
Eating teruma bethara?
etc etc
Yes Im sure there are vertelach about some of the above. And soem might be easier to answer than othersNobody can literally keep the entire Torah some mitzvahs are exclusivly for Kohanim some exclusively for non-kohanim.
All the more so the avos, with no sanhedrin, beis hamikdash, kohanim leviim etc..July 26, 2017 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm in reply to: APPALLING: Chareidi Boy -Israel Wrong For Putting Metal Detectors On Har Habayis #1325876ubiquitinParticipantAuperma and Joseph
“and decided that the boy was right”
The main thrust of the boy’s argument was that metal detectors dont work. I did not see anywhere were the zionist prime minister agreed with him.
IT was this argument that made him clueless. (I never found his clueless ideas appaling nor despicable)
ubiquitinParticipantAvi
Have you ever tried making out a Polish or Hungarian word?
Yes it is easy. if you ride the Tram in Cracow and you want to get off at “kazimierz” the correct pronounciation is irrelevant We can all recognize the where that station is. However if in Pakistan and you are looking for “بے ترتیب -” you will have a much harder time .
Likewise for somebody who doesnt recognize Hebrew letters and is looking for “רחוב יפו”ubiquitinParticipantiacrisma
Even if that is true (many have their doubts) cholent is still a yiddish word. It might derive from 2 French words, but the word “cholent” isnt French. check any French dictionary I assure you the word cholent isnt there.Cholent guy
Yiddish for dummies doent make a whole lot of sense in my opinion. IT uses latin characters which of course Yiddish doesnt. The best way is Using Yiddish children’s books keep a dictionary handy if you get stuck.ubiquitinParticipantAvram
Maybe we can be outraged that other people are so easily outraged and care so much about what other people do
July 25, 2017 8:22 am at 8:22 am in reply to: APPALLING: Chareidi Boy -Israel Wrong For Putting Metal Detectors On Har Habayis #1324821ubiquitinParticipantToras Avigdor
Just so we are clear you said “there have been these types of hat habayis terrorist incidents for years.”
However this is factually incorrect. Though as you admitted “I haven’t followed the details of the har habayis current events”
Thats ok if you dont follow current events, then dont go judging and when yiou ask “So why would they wake up now?” Dont answer your own question if you ( as you admit) dont know what you are talking about.You say “The danger of someone bringing a gun up there was well known for many years” Yes but it hasnt happened until now. THAT is why “they would wake up now”
Now if you argue that a few dead policeman are worth it once in a while to preserve calm, ok at least that doesnt argue with facts. But dont say “there have been these types of hat habayis terrorist incidents for years”
July 24, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm in reply to: Another glorious nonsensical back and forth between Health and Ubiquitin #1324597ubiquitinParticipant“Yet the cases that I had personal involvement were those that came to the US for care that was not available to them at the time in the UK and Canada.”
Thus giving you a biased sample. I have been involved in those cases, as well as cases in the reverse .
I am not saying the US system is all bad (nor did I even say it wasnt the best, I was just challenging Health to elaborate best in what way. If you define “best healthcare” as shorter wait times I grant the US has better healthcare than Canada for non-essential treatment. Again though A single payer sytem does not have to equal longer wait times, as mentioned previously. The US has a single payer system for those over 65. I am not aware of Longer wait times for them to be seen. -
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