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Mamzerus is only created by Biyas Issur.
That’s correct. IIRC, R. Moshe paskened that artificial insemination from someone other than the husband does not create a mamzer because there was no Biyas Issur (although he says that, if at all possible, the husband’s sperm should be used).
If a woman has two husbands B’heter, then a Mamzer can not be created.
Ah, but that’s the magic question… if there can be said to be a cardinal rule of Jewish marriage law, it’s that a woman cannot be married to two men at the same time. Saying that she can have two husbands at the same time is such a major chiddush (and that’s a huge understatement) that you need to have *really* good sources to allow it.
The Wolf
In Bergen County, NJ a Hebrew Language charter school was just approved.
New Jersey, to the best of my knowledge, does not have a Blaine Amendment in it’s constitution. That makes things much easier.
The Wolf
Wolf, out of curiosity, if the problem is only the State’s inability to pay anything to a facility that teaches religious studies, then why not (at least for the higher grades, say 6+) have the Yeshiva portion of the education take place in local shuls, and then have the Yeshivos teach only secular studies in their buildings and be fully funded by the State?
The problem with your suggestion is that the same rules apply if the school is under the control of a religious organization, even if religion isn’t taught in the school. So you can’t have a yeshiva split into a “Hebrew School” and a “Secular School” (and have the latter funded by the state) because the Secular School would still be under the control of the religious school/organization. You could, if you wanted to, remove that control, but then you’re opening up the possibility of your kids sitting next to the same people I mentioned above — which would never fly in New York.
The Wolf
But Wolf, that is kind of contradictory.
Contradictory with what?
The Wolf
Dont Yeshivas get funding for books etc? How is that possible?
If they do, then it’s through the Federal Government which may make some programs available. The Federal Government is not constrained by the State Constitution. But on the other hand, the Federal Government is not going to pick up the state’s education costs because the Jews decide to flood the schools.
The Feds may indirectly fund certain activities, but actual funding of education is a state matter, not a federal one.
The Wolf
salary
Salary & benefits info for the NYPD:
http://www.nypdrecruit.com/benefits-salary/overview
The Wolf
So you still did not answer my question as to why the Torah forbids a Kohain from marrying a convert.??
Actually, there is no such mitzvah against a Kohein marrying a convert.
There is a mitzvah against a Kohein marrying a Zonah — and all converts (as well as some non-converts) have the status of a Zonah — but there is no specific mitzvah prohibiting a Kohein from marrying specifically a convert.
The Wolf
Point taken. However at least we would be getting the secular studies for free
No, you wouldn’t. The State Constitution is very clear on this. If religion is taught in the school (or if the school is controlled by a religious organization) then *no part* of the school can be funded by state funds — not the secular studies, not the arts and crafts, not the gym, not the electricity, not the rent, not the administrative staff — nothing.
The Wolf
(NB: The State Constitution does specify that building inspection and one or two other minor services can be funded — but aside from those few named exceptions, no part of the school can be funded by state dollars.)
If all the yeshiva students suddenly showed up, the citu would take over the private school buildings, space won’t be an issue.
The city can’t magically take your yeshiva, turn it into a public school, and still allow religious studies to be taught. It’s illegal in New York.
The Wolf
It is a fact that city schools are overcrowded which is one of the reasons why they are failing. The city would have to construct new buildings to be able to take in ALL the yeshiva students. The city would not want to take on such an expensive project which is why I think they would gladly lease our current functioning Yeshive buildings, allow our students to remain there , and they would cover our tuition costs.
You don’t seem to understand. It doesn’t matter if the public school system can absorb all the frum kids or not. I think that over time they can but, let’s say for the sake of argument that they can’t. It doesn’t change anything.
By law, you cannot use public funding to pay for religious schools in New York. It’s in the State Constitution. So, the Board of Ed cannot simply send all of our kids back to yeshiva and say “we’ll pay for it.” It simply cannot happen.
Or, rather, there might be a way this can happen according to you. Sure, the city might lease our school buildings, but then, if it’s a public school, religion can’t be taught at all. So all that would accomplish is to turn the yeshivas into public schools.
Your vision of simply having the State pay for yeshivos is illegal under current New York law. So even if the public school system can’t absorb our kids, they will, by law, have to find a way to get it done – and they can’t do it by simply funding yeshivos.
The Wolf
The fact that it was sactioned by BD does not allow her to remain married to the second husband!
Right. She can only remain married to the first. But nonetheless, the children from the second marriage, even though permitted under the circumstances are still mamzeirim. I guess I wasn’t clear in my summation.
But that being said, why wouldn’t our case be comparable? She is permitted to remarry (since she has positive evidence that her husband died) but if he should somehow return (say via Techias HaMeisim) then her children by her second husband are mamzeirim.
Since I don’t believe that to actually be the case, I would think that her first marriage is actually terminated (in toto) by the death of her husband.
The Wolf
Since the marriage is not an illicit relationship, they are not Mamzerim. The case of Ba’a Memedinas Hayam they are Mamzerim, because even though she is allowed to marry, sof davar, the relationship is illicit (i.e., we only allowed her to marry due to our own ignorance, not due to it actually being muttar).
Think of it like the Torah allowing the woman to marry a second husband. The child would not be a Mamzer in that case.
WADR, I believe you are confusing two different cases.
An agunah is allowed to marry based on the testimony of one witness. However, if she does so, she is required to perform an investigation and if her first husband shows up, she’s out of luck in that she loses both husbands.
If she marries on the basis of two witnesses and with the permission of Bais Din, however, she is afforded the protection that if her husband returns, she does not have to leave him (the first husband). In this case, the marriage is sanctioned by Bais Din and is perfectly permitted. And yet, her kids (with the second husband) end up as mamzeirim anyway.
The Wolf
Deflections like yours above do not add anything to the conversation.
On the contrary, if someone is going to later use the question posited here as “Aha, see, that proves that having a kesher with a rav is an indicator for successful marriages…” then those terms must be defined, or else the question is meaningless.
Is as if you ask “Are the Yankees good?” You have to define what you mean by “Yankees” (this year’s team, the last decade, all-time?) and you have to define “good” (winning record, make the playoffs, win the World Series…). Without those definitions, the question itself is meaningless.
Of course defines a kesher as admiraiton of a rav. Well, I admire my rav and I admire my mesader kiddushin, but I don’t call them terribly often and I don’t socialize with them very often. Does that count? I’m sure most couples have some rav they admire, but is that enough?
The Wolf
Does that make her children from the second marriage mamzeirim after Techias HaMeisim since her original marriage is still valid?
Just to clarify my question — a comparable case would be one where an aguna remarries on the basis of the testimony of two eyewitnesses and yet, they were mistaken and her husband shows up. She was allowed to remarry, and yet, because her original marriage was still intact, her subsequent children are mamzeirim.
The Wolf
Of course, if you hold of gilgulim, this whole question suddenly becomes *much* more complicated. 🙂
The Wolf
I have a question about the Ben Ish Chai’s answer. I find it hard to believe that there was no need for a new kiddushin after Mattan Torah when there was probably no kiddushin in the first place (since it was before Mattan Torah and there was no mitzvah of kiddushin).
Alternatively, you can consider the case of those people to the case of someone whose heart stops but is then “brought back” by CPR — they were dead by a clinical standard, but “true” death is only when it’s permanent*.
It seems they are still Halachicly married, but she is allowed to marry someone else.
Does that make her children from the second marriage mamzeirim after Techias HaMeisim since her original marriage is still valid?
The Wolf
* Not counting the ultimate Techias HaMeisim, of course.
Would a real Kesher with one Rov (who has an open door policy for questions and issues that arise), beginning at the engagement, or possibly before, and continuing throughout the engagement and marriage, increase the likelihhod of success of marriages?
How would you define “real Kesher?” How would you measure the success of a marriage? Is the mere existence of a marriage (i.e. the fact that they didn’t get divorced) a “successful” marriage?
The Wolf
it will be BAU with recognizable halacha with some adjustments
BAU?
The Wolf
I think you should be listening to your customers.
True, not everything that they tell you is going to be practical or implementable (or even a good idea), but you should, nonetheless, be listening to your customers.
The Wolf
my birthday is in adar rishon, as in it was a leap year when i was born… i always said that i didn’t have a birthday, which makes for an interesting topic of conversation…
The real people impacted are the people who are born on the 30th day of Adar I. They’re the Jewish equivalents of those who are born on Feb 29.
The Wolf
The NYC school system can’t handle the extra load. There are already over 1 million students in the public school system. Classrooms are already overcrowded. And poor-performing schools are being shut down. The Board of Ed doesn’t want us there as much as we don’t want to be there.
I believe you’re wrong. But you know something, even if you’re right, it still won’t work.
First, I believe that the BoE would accept us with open arms. A larger enrollment means larger budgets, more staff, etc. As I said, they may not be able to handle it on day one if we all show up at once, but over the course of a few weeks they’ll get it together.
Second, even if the Board of Ed does not truly want us, it is not empowered to say “OK, we don’t want you, go back to your schools and we’ll fund you.” The schools are required by law to accept students who come to them for schooling. If they don’t have space, they will have to find space. Secondly, the State Constitution *still* prohibits state funding of religious schools — and that’s not something that the Board of Ed can change.
The Wolf
Do you know what the punishment for people like you are? I don’t think you want to – It has something to do with a mikvah…
Ooooh, a public threat on a public message board. 🙂 I just hope no one turns up dead, RB, or the cops are going to come looking for you.
The Wolf
Syrians do not accept geirim, but in practice, they don’t accept Ashkanazim either
I know this to be not true, as I know a Syrian man who married an Ashkenazi woman. The bris I mentioned above (where I took a picture of the takana) was their son’s. The man is still a member in good standing in the Syrian community (the bris was held in the above-mentioned shul), his kids go to Syrian schools, etc.
The Wolf
Is it just me, or it this about the sixth time I’ve seen this question (or a variant) in the last month or two?
The Wolf
It’s Adar Sheini.
This leads to an interesting phenomenon that we’re experiencing right now. Since thirteen years ago was not a leap year, there are no Bar Mitzvahs this month. Everyone born in Sh’vat 5758 had their Bar Mitzvah last month and everyone born in Adar 5758 is having their Bar Mitzvah next month. So this month (Adar I 5771) there are no Bar Mitzvahs.
The Wolf
Is someone allowed to take a job which makes him a mandatory reporter?
Then there would be no yeshivos, as I’m fairly sure that teachers (and that would include rabbeim) are mandatory reporters in New York.
The Wolf
Then we should attend their schools in large numbers and take over the school making it essentially a Jewish city school. The same way the Spanish, Chinese, blacks dominate entire schools in their districts. We would then have control over how the school is run.
Such a plan is legal and, in theory, may work. In practice, however, it won’t, for several reasons:
First of all, the largest problem you’re going to face is that the public school *still* won’t teach Torah. People are NOT going to pull their kids out of yeshiva and put them in an environment where no Torah is taught… even if it’s free.
Second, consider the exclusive nature of many yeshivos today. They keep kids out because they don’t fit the exact mold of the school — if the kid wears the wrong kippah, the wrong color shirt, shows any interest in any sports, reads the wrong books, whatever. And this is because the parents in the school want it this way. They don’t want their “Moshe” or “Shlomo” or “Chavi” associating with kids who read Harry Potter or have a television or whatever. They are ultra-concerned about what outside influences their kids are exposed to. Do you *really* think that these same parents are going to enroll their kids in a public school with non-Jews*?
The Wolf
* Even if you take control of the school board, you *still* can’t keep non-Jews (or anyone else for that matter) out of your classroom. Your little girl could end up sitting next to a devout Catholic, a Hindu, a Muslim, a strident atheist or a Satanist — and there’s nothing you can do about it.
I was in a Syrian shul for a bris a few years ago and they had the takana on a wall. I took a photo of it. Drop me an email if you want a copy of it.
The Wolf
I don’t know about Sephardim in general, but I do know that this is a rule in the Syrian community in New York and has been for many, many years.
The Wolf
It would also be difficult for him to marry his ex-wife after she died. That was my point when I wrote maybe that’s only before they died.
True. 🙂
The Wolf
But I guess it is better to have some of the knowledge, than just to make it up because they are unwilling to look into it.
Again, I didn’t just make it up – I provided a logical reason for my theory. And I’m not unwilling to look it up — I just want you to tell me where to look. I don’t have the time to search every possible sefer to find your source. If you bring the source, it’s your job (not mine) to reference it.
But hey, you want a source, I’ll give you one. The Rambam (quoting the Gemara) famously says that there is no difference between Olam HaZeh and Olam HaBah except for shibud malchios. So, since in this world marriage is terminated at death and the surviving spouse is free to marry anyone else, so too in Olam HaBah marriage is terminated at death and the spouse is free to marry anyone else.
The Wolf
2. I believe that is only applicable in divorce, not death.
No, the halacha is clear. She cannot return to her first husband whether the second husband divorced her or died.
Of course, the Torah didn’t state what happens if the first husband dies simply because it would be very difficult for him to remarry her after he dies. 🙂
The Wolf
you told me in a very nice way unlike anyone else on this site.
Hey, I was nice to you… until you started accusing me of not liking halachos you made up, disparaging the entire MO community and cursing my children.
That sort of thing tends to put a damper on our relationship, don’t you think?
The Wolf
but isn’t the only religion that seems to believe that marriage continues after death, Hindu?
The Suttee practice was outlawed in India a long time ago.
In the LDS church, you can be sealed in a marriage which transcends death.
The Wolf
I usually have far too much to do to get drunk on Purim. But a nice light wine is nice to have.
The Wolf (who has *never* been drunk in his life)
i’m cracking up at the sheer nerve you have to cite as fact you’re “logical” opinion on after death matters (which to me sound strangely unjewish to say at least)
What is “unjewish” about the idea that marriage ends at death? The fact that the Torah allows a spouse to remarry after death is a very compelling proof to this. If marriage lasted beyond death, why would the Torah allow a wife to remarry?
and to declare that you’re not even gonna look into it, as long as no one can prove you wrong.
So you think I should look into every sefer in existence to find this, since my disputant can’t provide the name? Sorry… I’ve got a life to lead too.
And mind you, I never said that it doesn’t prove me wrong. I never said anything about proving my side at all — I simply asked my disputant to name his/her source. That’s a perfectly valid thing to do in a debate.
Frankly, I find the fact that I’m being taken to task for simply asking for the name of a sefer before accepting it as authoritative to be very unsettling.
The Wolf
Obviously the mechaber of the sefer knows more than you. It wasn’t a sefer written by someone in our generation.
But not everything that’s written in a sefer is authoritative and accepted as normative halacha/hashkafah. How am I to judge if that’s the case when you, yourself don’t even know if that’s the case?
The Wolf
Wolf – That’s funny -because I don’t remember which sefer I saw it in, my point is less valid than yours. Even if you think I’m lying about seeing it, it’s a least as good as yours which came off the top of your hat!
At least my point is based on logic — it’s logical that a marriage is dissolved on the death of one of the partners.
Part of arguing a point and citing an authority is the ability to produce it so that your disputant can look at it for himself. If you can’t tell me where it is, then how can I look it up? It’s not up to me to search every sefer in existence to find your point.
The Wolf
shomer shabbos.
And how do you define that? If someone uses a controversial eruv, are they still Shomer Shabbos?
The Wolf
We’ve been through this. This plan would never work.
First, the New York State Constitution prohibits the public funding of private schools where religion is taught.
Second, if every yeshiva kid suddenly showed up at the public schools, the city would be mandated to find space for them, not provide funding for private schools (which it can’t – see the State Constitution).
Third, I believe that the city *can* accommodate all the kids. They may not find seats for them all on day one, but in the span of a few weeks, they will find the space.
Lastly, the city is making a free education available to you. You are free to enroll your kid in public school at any time. The fact that you (and I) choose not to, does not change the fact that they are making the education available to your kid.
The Wolf
I’ll you what, you find it and research it yourself.
Um… no. I don’t think so. If you want to make the point, it’s on you to provide the source. It’s not up to me to go searching for *your* source.
The Wolf
how many frum jews are there in the United States?
How do you define “frum?”
The Wolf
Wolfish & other sincere CR adults~ sorry to say, but I think we’re being played in alot of the threads by young teens ://
Yeah, that was the conclusion I came to as well.
Well, I’m off to cook dinner for the family. I’ll be back later.
The Wolf
look up the mekor that i gave you
I did and I responded to it. There is no such halacha there.
The Wolf
can you get me a cheap watch
If it means that much to you, buy yourself a watch.
At this point, I’m done with you. I don’t believe your story anymore. If the important thing were about feeling loved and accepted by your in-laws (as you said), then how would my getting you a watch change things?
In this thread you have made up halachos, insulted the entire MO community by implying that they don’t “like” halachos and cursed my kids by hoping that they have in-laws like the ones you claim you are getting. I’ve given you the best advice that you can hope to receive in this situation. You’re either a fake or someone who is so hung up on petty material things that you are clearly not yet ready for marriage.
Either way, I’m done with you. Feel free to take my advice or leave it.
The Wolf
to wolf why is it a curse if you are saying that there is nothing wrong with me not getting a watch, how is it a curse now i see that it really does make a difference to you
Because you’re wishing that my kids have in-laws who would withhold gifts for petty reasons. To me, that’s a curse. I’m sorry that that’s your reality, but I was not responsible for it, nor my kids.
I’m giving you the best advice for your situation. There’s no need to curse me for it when I’m only trying to help you.
The Wolf
my question is that why should the inlaws put up such a fight if it means so much to the choson. I dont understand. I understand if somone doesnt have the money but this is not the case here would u like to come to my chasuna
So they’re being petty. So what? Again, even if you find a way to force them to give you the watch, will that make you feel loved by them? Is a forced gift really a gift?
Accept the fact that you’re in-laws are petty and move on with your life.
im sorry it has nothing to do with being mature
If you think it’s a good thing to jeopardize a marriage over a watch, I do have to question your maturity.
The Wolf
How old is your son? And how large is the choir?
The Wolf
im just asking for a watch which is the minimum a choson usually gets.
My in-laws are not rich. They did not get me a watch or a shas or anything else major as a wedding gift. They bought me a tallis. My kallah bought me a watch from her own money. That was it.
But you know what… even if they flatly refused to get me anything, I wouldn’t have cared… because I was already getting their daughter which was more important to me than anything else they could possibly provide.
IMHO, if you can’t see that, and if you think starting a family war that can jeopardize your marriage is worth a lousy watch, then perhaps you’re not mature enough to be getting married.
The Wolf
what about mesameich choson vkallah, im just asking for a watch which is the minimum a choson usually gets.
There is NO mitzvah to be m’sameiach a chosson with a watch.
just remember what goes around comes around maybe this will happen to your kid, what would you say.
First of all, I understand you’re upset, so I’ll forgive you for the implied curse. But that being said, I’m giving you the VERY SAME advice I would give to my kids in the same situation… focus on the girl and not on the gifts.
The Wolf