Forum Replies Created
are you ignoring the passuk…v’hegadita lvincha.
So, all those years that I allowed my daughter to sit at the Seder table and actively engaged her in sippur yetziyas mitzrayim…. who knew that I was being in violation of a passuk? I should have been completely ignoring her.
No. If they comply they don’t get anything. Plus Malkus mardus is dRabbonim and tzorich chizzuk yoser midivrei Torah.
Then the answer is “yes,” not “no.”
Of course we’re talking about when they don’t comply. That’s the very basis of the question. So, you’re of the opinion that the witnesses get a worse death penalty (being beaten to death slowly) than the perpetrator who actually committed the crime.
Malkus Mardus until they comply or die refusing
Interesting. So you’re positing that the punishment for refusing to carry out an execution is greater than the punishment given out to the condemned they are supposed to execute?
But let’s say?
You can’t hoist ask veiberishe questions.
Why? You don’t think it’s impossible that the witnesses would not know or that a Bais Din can make a mistake?
Chazal tell us that Tzlafchad was a Tzadik and Yorei Shomayim.
And yet, he still sinned.
But in any event, are you *really* putting forth the contention that *every* person who was executed by a Bais Din was really doing it l’shem shamayim?
My Rebbe told me all Yidden back then were Heilige Yirei Shomayim. Of course they would of enthusiastically followed the Daas Torah of Bais Din.
Of course, if they were *all* Heilige Yirei Shomayim,” there would be no need for a Beis Din of 23 to exist in the first place.
Let me thread the needle for you. We tell the witnesses that by doing their part they will be showing their trustworthiness. Because if they refuse it might be said that they are not shtark in what they testified and are backing out. So in response to the question of what to do the answer is we give them chizuk. Farshteyst?
That assumes that the witnesses were told beforehand that they would have to carry out the execution. But let’s say that:
(a) there is no such policy that they are told beforehand
(b) The Bais Din messed up procedurally and did not inform them.
but either way the rest of the punishment will still be carried out bec. if not the perpetrator will miss out his caporoh
Again… I’m not asking about the perpetrator. I understand the perpetrator will be executed regardless. My question was what will happen to the witnesses?
I’m assuming his hypothetical case would be where eidem convicted someone with meesah, and only afterwards realized that they’d have to do the execution, or a case where after being mechuyav the guy meesah, they changed their minds and decided they’re too squeamish for it.
Or, maybe, after they themsevles testified, they heard other testimony that changed their mind (but did not sway the court).
Therefore killing the protagonist has a by product in addition to removing the evil. It also shows our belief that אלוקים נצב בעדה.
I’m not disputing the halacha or even questioning it’s necessity. I’m just asking what would happen to the witnesses if they just flat out refused to actually kill the perpetrator themselves.
Therefore the situation in the question will never arise.
Or unless they are under the mistaken impression that agents of the court carry it out. Or that they could gain an exemption because of their reluctance to personally kill. Or maybe they just plain changed their mind about the guilt of the convicted after testifying.
So, yes, the question can arise.
Why would the witnesses have brought the case to begin with?
Any number of reasons.
Perhaps they did not know that they, themselves would have to execute him.
Perhaps they are squeamish and cannot do the deed themselves.
Perhaps they were hoping that they could send a shliach to do it for them.
… and I’m sure there are plenty of other potential scenarios.
רמב”ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק יג הלכה ז
מי שנגמר דינו וברח ובא לבית דין אחר אין סותרין את דינו אלא כל מקום שיעמדו שנים ויאמרו מעידין אנו את איש פלוני שנגמר דינו בבית דין פלוני ופלוני ופלוני עדיו הרי זה יהרג, במה דברים אמורים ברוצח אבל שאר חייבי מיתות עד שיבואו עדיו הראשונים ויעידו שנגמר דינו ויהרגוהו בידם, והוא שיעידו בבית דין של עשרים ושלשה.
Thank you, Reb Eliezer, but that doesn’t really answer my question. I’m not asking about the condemned. I’m asking about the witnesses.
When Bais Din ordered someone to do something, it made no difference whether or not the person “wanted to” comply or not. Bais Din was quite capable of ensuring that their rulings were complied with.
Well, that was my question, wasn’t it? *What* can Bais Din do? Malkus Mardus? And what if they still refuse? Do they get executed too?
I don’t know what the question is. It says yad kol hoom beachrono. Even as a rodaf he would get killed by anyone.
As I said, I had little doubt about the fate of the convicted. My question was what was to be done with the witnesses who refused to execute the person.
Unless a picture of you as a cub
I hate to disillusion you but, contrary to popular opinion, I am not *actually* a wolf. 😀
My social media profile picture is a picture of me as a kid. What’s the heter for that?
I’d love to see your work. Do you share it anywhere?
As a matter of fact, I do.
If you search for my name (my real name) and just add .com after it, you’ll find my website which shows my work.
(It shouldn’t be too difficult to find my real name. It’s not too much of a secret anymore).
As many of you know, I have a hobby doing landscape photography.
As such, I look for places in nature that are beautiful to photograph and are awe-inspiring. Some of the incredibly beautiful places I’ve been to include:
St. John, USVI
Niagara Falls, NY
Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado
Watkins Glen, NY
Ricketts Glen, PA
Shenandoah National Park, VA
Acadia National Park, ME
Great Smoky Mountain National Park, TN/NC
However, there is also great natural beauty to be found even in places like New York. NYC isn’t all glass, steel and concrete. There is plenty of natural beauty to be found in places like Central Park, Prospect Park, the NY and Brooklyn Botanical Gardens and the like.
HKBH’s beautiful natural world is all around us. Just go look for it.
If you want to wear a hat, wear one. Don’t worry about what other people will think.
To’eiva is, plain and simple, one of the few things that seems to cause HKBH to act with force against the world. That is the concern I am raising: Going down this road will seemingly lead to some very bad outcomes for society. Since we live in this society, we will experience whatever consequences occur and we should not expect them to be enjoyable.
So, it’s your argument that my failure to yell at my gay co-workers is causing the destruction of the world?
(Mind you, I always knew the world was a worse place with me in it, but now I have even more basis for it.)
Hate to break it to you, but the universe is, other than humanity on Earth, completely devoid of life. Do some research into the probabilities of life arising spontaneously and you’ll see the reality of the situation.
a. The galaxy is far bigger than you think.
b. The universe is far, far, far bigger than you think.
c. If HKBH could cause life to be created and/or evolve on this planet, there’s no reason to think He couldn’t do it on other planets.
d. The burden of proof is on you to prove that there is no life elsewhere. I have not made any definitive statement that life does exist elsewhere (notwithstanding my response to akuperma’s tongue-in-cheek statement). I admit that the possibility exists that we are alone, but I also admit that the possibility exists that we are not alone. If you are so sure that we are alone, the burden of proof is on you to show it.
Wolf: You take sci-fi seriously?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
I take science fiction seriously a form of fiction but also as a way to present new ideas.
As for an epidemic, that’s not necessarily science fiction. Heck, we’re living it now. Granted, it’s not of the “civilization destroying” severity, but it’s certainly possible that (a) one could one day arise or (b) a very serious (but not civilization destroying on it’s own) virus could arise which, combined with other factors, could endanger civilization.
Do I lose sleep or alter my routines over these scenarios? No, I don’t, as there isn’t anything I could do about them if they did happen. But that doesn’t mean that they aren’t, in theory, possibilities.
There is always the danger of a nuclear weapon being used (again).
There is also a danger of an epidemic that will destroy civilization.
There is also the danger of an asteroid hitting Earth
or the Sun going Nova.
Not so true (at least not on the scale of our lifetimes.
There is also the danger of Earth being visited by hungry aliens who think we are non-sentient but with a good taste.
Science Fiction is an interesting genre, but you should realize that it is fiction.
Of course I realize it’s fiction.
If you are really worried about the end of the world, stop posting on YWN and concentrate on spending your minutes on Torah and Mitsvos.
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I’m not truly worried about the end of the world (or even an EMP blast) because, if it happens, there really isn’t a great deal I can do about it.
Technically speaking, there’s always a threat of an EMP pulse. Reminds me of this quote:
There’s always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they do not know about it
Why are you automatically assuming that the beis din will kill someone?
I’m not. But with each capital case, it certainly is a distinct possibility. I’d rather not risk it and there is no halacha that says that I have to serve if asked/accept if appointed.
The Gemara calls a beis din that kills someone a court of murderers
I think you’ll fit right in
While I can understand why you would think that someone like me would feel comfortable with the title of murderer, I should point out that while I will accept full responsibility for sins I have committed (and Heaven knows they are plenty), I will not accept the title of murderer since it is not something I have ever done.
While you may seem to think that I might be comfortable with the company of people who are titled as murderers, whether or not I would do so is irrelevant. The fact is that regardless of the company, I don’t see myself as capable of participating in a tribunal that would lead to the death of another person.
Anyways I wouldn’t be surprised if you were on the other side of the bench
I thank you for the kind words, but I’m afraid that’s not going to be true. Even if I were qualified for such a role, I don’t think I could participate in a proceeding that would lead to someone else’s execution.
I have little doubt that once Moshiach comes and batei din are re-established, one of the first things that will happen is that I will be hauled in front of one of the tribunals for execution for my many sins.
Wolf: You deem theft to be worse than sexual sins,
I never said that, and if I gave that impression, I apologize.
so you’re saying you don’t view the analogy as valid as you’ll speak out against theft but you’ll refuse to speak out against sexual sins?
The point is that I haven’t seen anyone do anything Biblically prohibited regarding homosexual sex. So, I can’t judge them as “wicked” on that basis. Your analogy was about something I directly observed.
Again, I judge only myself. Period. And so, I only judge one person as wicked. Period. If my lack of judging of others makes me wicked in your eyes as well, so be it. I’m not asking you to accept my actions as correct or right. If my lack of judging someone is sinful, then by all means, call me sinful.
Wolf: If you witnessed a co-worker stealing company property or witnessed a neighbor beating other people’s children, would you then publicly declare yourself “unworthy enough to judge anyone else as to whether or not they are virtuous or not, so I make it a point not to hate anyone”?
I have never witnessed any of my coworkers performing prohibited sexual acts, so your analogy is not valid.
I judge only one person. I am only qualified to judge one person. And so I only hate one person.
Until I am appointed an official judge by someone, that’s the way it remains.
If you think my lack of judgement of others makes me a bad person, then you are free to hate me too.
I am not worthy enough to judge anyone else as to whether or not they are virtuous or not, so I make it a point not to hate anyone, with the exception of the one specific person who I know is wicked enough that I can hate that person.
If you’re telling me that I’m a bad person for not hating whoever it is you think I should hate… well, I guess that just makes me a worse person than I thought I was.
I don’t have any info on it, but hope that you find it soon.
Wolf: I’m a shadchan.
a. I don’t need a shadchan. I’m happily married.
b. Even if I did need one, our hashkafos are so different that I doubt you could effectively set me up with anyone.
c. I have a high degree of doubt about your claim.
For what it’s worth…
When I go to National Parks and other beautiful places in nature to do photography, I always make sure to leave nothing behind except footprints.
If someone as rotten and horrible as I can adhere to this policy, then surely decent people the world over should be able to.
Following. I’m always up for looking for new places to go on dates.
Wolf: How did you know they’re homosexuals?
Because they openly discuss having same sex partners.
Do you also know which people you work with are adulterers?
No, because no one (to the best of my recollection) has been open about being an adulterer.
Why would you know the former but not the latter?
Cohanim are on top of Leviim. Leviim come before Yisroelim. Rabbonim come on top of them all. Avodim (yes, the Torah permits avdos) come after them all. There’s a pecking order between Yehudim and nochrim too.
And way down there, somewhere between earthworm and smallpox, is me.
I’ve worked with gay people for years. Never once has this been a problem for me or for them.
Shavuous night, I learned at home from about 12:30 until 4:15. (I slept a bit until 12:30… yeah, I know, that’s against the rules.). Then I went to shul for Shacharis.
Wolf, maybe the opposite is true? The fact that there is a good person like you proves that you exist.
Thank you for the kind words, but your premise is incorrect.
OK, can we stop the side conversation and get back to the actual purpose of this thread.
If a Census truly brought a plague, we’d be able to see a very clear pattern of it in not only the US (with the decennial census), but also in other countries that have censuses on a regular basis. Since we don’t see that pattern, it’s safe to say that the national censuses do not cause plague.
Baruch Hashem you’ve finally accepted the title Reb without protest.
I definitely exist.
I think it is literally impossible for someone as horrible as I to have been the product of someone’s imagination.
Reb Wolf: As you haven’t responded to our Erev Shavuos conversation whereupon I referred you to a specific date of our communications via electronic mail, describing the nature of that eight year old conversation, based upon the principle of Shtika K’hodaah I believe we have mutually resolved our difference of memory in my favor.
Or, I simply forgot about it in the week or so since I was last on these boards. I’ll look into the matter and get back to you on that thread.
Please do do you research, (Zohar במדבר קיז עייב)
Counting Am Israel brings magefa and the beracha leaves am Israël. Do not follow the call of Agudath Israel, unless you really want another magefa R’L
Of course, if this were true, we’d see a pattern of plagues every ten years. I don’t believe the data supports this.
The WolfMay 28, 2020 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm in reply to: Chasidus bans “informers” from using its facilities #1865815
Wolf, I emailed you about nine years ago to take care of what you asked but you declined to give me the information.
No. I was prepared to meet you. *You* made it clear that you were just going to waste my time and not actually do it.
The WolfMay 28, 2020 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm in reply to: Chasidus bans “informers” from using its facilities #1865793
This is a very light punishment. Al pi Torah and al pi Halacha the prescribed punishment for mosrim is much harsher than what they are doing.
Well, as an actual living, breathing moser (I once called the cops because of a car alarm going off at 3 AM without actually calling a rav first to ask if that’s okay), I’m still waiting for someone to step forward and give me the traditional punishment.
Do you want to do it, Joseph?
If the yeshivas and kollels would assassinate theit population, then yeshiva and killed populations would be cut in half.
Are you seriously equating having a small wedding with assassination?
Setting up a blog is very easy. If an idiot like me can do it, almost anyone can.