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AAQ – I just suggested that you have a frank discussion with some Rosh Yeshiva and qualified that I mean a non-extremist one.
I have my own Rov who I ask my shailos to, including this, so I don’t need to go shopping around. All the Gedolim who I ever spoke with or heard in a private forum off the record are even more strongly opposed to serving in the IDF then they say in public…
AAQ – I did not really make any conclusions from Mahane Yisroel – I brought the quotes that might be relevant. Feel free to interpret them according to what you think. I am all ears.
Maybe there was no way the Jews could get the Czar to relent, because he wasn’t such a nice guy if you remember, so the Chofetz Chaim taught the poor conscripts how to keep the minimum Halacha the best they could.
AAQ – but because it is impossible to resolve issues so close in time – and this is view of R Steinsalz on similar topics. He remarked that Gemora gives reasons for destruction of beis hamidash – but it took some time after the event to formulate them.
So therefore there cannot be real time Daas Torah solutions for anything because “oh who can know?”. Get real. That isn’t even what R’ Steinsaltz meant, let alone the actual pshat. We understand enough, with the help of Gedolei Yisroel, to have Bechirah and make correct real time decisions.
AAQ – This is why I prefer discussing situation in previous generation with R Soloveichik against other Gedolei Yisroel. In that situation, I think I did enough research…
News flash. We are currently in a different generation… There is something called hindsight…
AAQ – form a cybersecurity unit from the computer-educated charedim…
Again with the bright ideas… The problem with the IDF isn’t the shooting etc. It’s the pritzus, combined with being משועבד to a Chiloni system 24/7, especially the ‘seven’. Deals have repeatedly been made, only to be broken by the IDF, or forced to be broken by the SC/AG. So it’s over. Finished. First deal with the Deep State dictatorship, then we’ll talk. From following the news lately, it seems that may already be starting.
I don’t think you are a bad person, maybe just a little overly nervous. Baruch Hashem you are still alive and well. Hashem already protected Klal Yisroel, including your ancestors, through 2000 years of persecution, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, plagues, expulsions, wars, and who knows what else. הן הן גבורותיו והן הן נוראותיו שכבשה אחת קיימת בין שבעים זאבים. Only for the last 80 or so years in America and similar countries have we become accustomed to not usually having to deal with those things. I cannot speak on behalf of Hashem, but He may very well want us to wake up and do Teshuvah, to become better in some way. That is the Jewish response to adversity from the Avos down to today. Hashem is always in control, and even in the worst of circumstances if it was bashert for someone to survive, Hashem made sure he survived. Why sometimes there were Yidden who were killed ר״ל, is Hashem’s business. But even then, we believe that was their tikkun and they were zocheh to Olam Haba. For now, America is still better than almost any other Golus ever was. But if the going gets tough, then it’s time for more Emunah, not less.
The best eitzah is to daven. Rebbe Nachman of Breslev taught that anyone can speak to Hashem in his/her own words, and doing so itself builds one’s Emunah. According to the Rambam (Hilchos Tefillah 1, 1) this is the ikkar mitzvah d’oraysa of Tefillah. (Even before the three regular Tefillos every day were established by Anshei Knesses Hagedola.)
SQUARE_ROOT – This means that the State of Israel…
NO IT DOES NOT! According to your logic, all of the bad things mentioned at the end of Maseches Sotah that will happen BEFORE Moshiach comes are, in your opinion, PART OF the Geulah. They aren’t. They are the LAST PART OF THE GOLUS. One could definitely say that the State of Israel is חוצפא יסגא והיוקר יאמיר והמלכות תהפך למינות with all the הידורים according to all the shittos… October 7 could very well be a fulfillment of ואנשי הגבול יסובבו מעיר לעיר ולא יחוננו, is that also אתחלתא דגאולה? Is there a מצוה to try to do all the things listed there in the Gemara to somehow hasten the Geulah? Of course not. These things are a statement of fact that such and such will occur before the real Geulah does. No נפקא מינה whatsoever להלכה. No hetter to fudge any real Torah and Mitzvos obligations to bring any of this about.
AAQ – Please try to understand the difference between “Rabbis” and “Gedolei Yisroel”, or between what the Chofetz Chaim was dealing with then, and what we are dealing with now. The Rabbonim, Admorim, and Roshei Yeshivos who led the Atzeres were davka far from being extremists. If you have some MO/RZ Rabbi who you think knows better, so zeit gezunt. This is just becoming a waste of time.
NP – Actually, if you read it carefully, it seems that the Steipler calls [whatever the recipient of the letter was trying to get him to agree to] לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. That would read even worse for ujm…
NP – Whatever exactly you call it, that ending is still pretty polite! It also completely negates the point that “ujm” keeps trying to make… As if the Steipler somehow condoned anything remotely resembling the freak show that NK has become.
mdd1 – And the over 100 millions is not all the money the government can cut.
Actually, it almost is. What hasn’t been cut already is support for Kollelim where avreichim are over 26, or Yeshiva Katana bochurim under 18. The more they keep it going, the more independent the Yeshiva World will be forced to become, which will reduce the government’s ability to apply any additional pressure going forward.
But that isn’t the real deal. The real deal is that Hashem runs the world, and we do the best we can to serve Him. The people who know best how we should do that are the Gedolei Yisroel. They hold that as long as the IDF remains the way it is at present, no frum boy belongs there – period. Let alone Yeshiva bochurim. The reasons for that include issues that are yehareg v’al yaavor in the literal Halachic meaning of that term, as has been discussed here many times. How Hashem chooses to provide for the gashmiyus needs of the Yeshivos is His business.
By the way, if you display such schadenfreude at the difficulties of the “Yeshiva World”, what brings you to a website called – “The Yeshiva World”?
Reposted from “Jothar”:
Wikipedia has a great summary of all the shitos on Lubavitch, ayein sham. You are sure to find one by a gadol you like.
The purpose of this thread is like any other here in the CR- allow people to spew their thoughts and feel like they accomplished something, thereby creating sticky content, causing people to click on ad links, thereby generating income for the website owner. The more controversial, the stickier the content. And thus the sausage is made. Sorry for breaking the 4th wall again.
Basically this sums it all up.
Yaakov: I’m very aware of the history. – But you neglected to mention that for some strange reason, the first time NK publicly associated with the Arabs was davka AFTER R’ Amram left… Nothing to see here.
And the NK was quite “radical” (in the sense how hamon hoam defines radical in these regards) under the leadership of Rav Amrom.
Why the need to qualify “radical” with additional peirushim? Ela mai…
It didn’t suddently flip within five years after Rav Amrom withdrew from the leadership.
Sure it did. There were people looking to get rid of R’ Amram זצ״ל already beforehand, and they used his marriage to a giyores as an excuse to do so.
There are quite the stories of Rav Amrom himself.
About his willingness to sacrifice himself, not to sacrifice others… A little difference goes a long way…
Btw, if you search the UN website you can find documents from the NK petitioning the UN in the 1950s to take away Israeli sovereignty and place the Holy Land under international control and UN protectorate.
That would be a continuation of the De Haan negotiations of the ’20s, and the negotiations with King Abdullah in ’47. Not what the PLO was looking for, certainly not what Iran is looking for now.
mdd1 – No, I am not “somejew”, and a quick search will show you that I frequently disagree strongly with his opinions.
And that’s why the Gedolim from E. Yisroel have been going to chutz la’aretz to try to collect money to the tune of over 100 millions a year.
Exactly. That money is from private donations. What is your problem with that? The Yeshivos will keep on going, don’t worry…
Satmar? They have able to have so many people in E. Yisroel and in kollel?
They don’t just give to their own mosdos, of which there are quite a few. They support entire networks of Mosdos such as Toldos Aharon, Dushinsky, and all the other Eidah-affiliated institutions, from pre-school through Kollel and more, with tens of thousands of students, to the tune of $100M a year at least… None of those mosdos take a penny from the State.
AAQ – The wording and tone of the letter clearly indicates that the Steipler is responding to a request from the Eidah or similar people to join their Shittah or at least write them some sort of letter of recommendation, something the Steipler politely refuses to do. It is equally clear that the Steipler doesn’t expect to convince them to change their Shittah, and certainly isn’t ‘warning’ them to do so. That’s the whole story, nothing more. Just two Talmidei Chachomim politely disagreeing about a controversial issue.
AAQ – Another possible explanation – they gathered, but did not daven together. I am told that they decided to have tehilim instead of speeches, because there was no one agreed speech, as groups vary widely in the political terms.
I was there. The Achdus was amazing. There was a rotation of Sephardi Litvish and Chassidish chazzanim saying Sephardi and Ashkenazi Selichos and Tehillim. There was an agreed upon speech or declaration of sorts at the end, but the main focus was in fact on Tefillah.
AAQ – translating back into yinglish: he quotes chazal that sometimes my teachers did not; and I disagree with his logic emotionally and I am looking for the logical argument to present.
The Gedolei Hador know all the Chazals that you quote, and then some, yet for some reason they don’t agree with you… So, yes, you very often can be caught processing the words of Chazal through your own ‘boich sevaros’…
Axiom: when all gedolim of one generation gather on one street of Yerushalaim and daven together, Moschiach will come [anybody knows the gemora page? It might be in Sanhedrin.
Do not know what you are talking about. Maybe you think there is some Tzaddik Nistar hiding in a cave somewhere who agrees with your Hashkafa? So you don’t have to listen to 99% of the Gedolei Hador? Don’t think so. If Hashem doesn’t wan’t the Geulah yet who can force His hand?
AAQ – Your argument is a “Straw Man Argument”, Scottish or otherwise. When all three Moetzes, plus the Eidah, plus Rav Thau and a few RZ for good measure, all agree on THE CORE ISSUE, even if they disagree on political details etc., so you have a VERY SOLID CONSENSUS of Torah leaders. Don’t tell me stories about deceased Gedolei Yisroel from decades ago. Tell me why you feel entitled to disagree with ALL the above Gedolei Yisroel.
Russian military tactics aren’t really relevant to the conversation. Did the Czar draft girls?
mdd1 – Ya’akov Yosef, you are insane.
Thank you. For what reason do you say so?
mdd1 – I meant that the non-Chareidim can cancel all the monetary support and so on and so forth. And so, the Chareidim might be forced to negotiate, Comprendo?
The State’s “monetary support” for the Yeshiva World is overrated. Most of the money comes from private donations. Since this has been going on already for a couple of years, the private donations have increased to cover loss of government money. There are quite a few rich Chareidim, if you don’t know. Satmar orbit mosdos never took government money to begin with. That ship has sailed without the Chareidim.
What is actually going on now, if you didn’t notice yet, is the use of criminal sanctions against Yeshiva Bochurim. That also won’t work, because you can’t arrest 80,000 people and disenfranchise 20% of the population.
The Gedolei Yisroel will continue to lead us, not the YWN peanut gallery.
AAQ – Look, from studying these issues, it is clear that there are multiple legitimate views, and multiple communities that had different legitimate attitudes. I think you agree with this. I can’t tell who is right (and most likely each group is sometimes right, or all are right for certain people, under certain conditions). But I know for sure who is not right – those who (on either side) claim that their position is Torah Moshe l’Sinai and the opposite are apikoresim. I am afraid this camp is pretty large.
If ALL the Gedolim agree wall to wall on something, it is perfectly reasonable to say that this is in fact Torah LeMoshe MiSinai, and the opposite are – at least very wrong, maybe in fact apikorsim as defined in Sanhedrin. There is a reason the camp is large – because there are a lot of Gedolim there with their followers. If you are still sure davka you are right, maybe you are actually wrong…
AAQ – OK, OK, even as you are going overboard with Russian army caring of soldier safety …
Sure they cared about the safety of their own soldiers more than they cared about their enemy’s civilians, as does the US Military, and every army worldwide except for the IDF.
So, maybe time for the bayonets in yeshovos.
Been there, done that, in the time of Chizkiyahu Hamelech. Not feasible at present.
AAQ – as I answered before, I understand your reservations. I am simply proposing that you [as a community] acknowledge that you are citizens of the country and continue hammering at realistic conditions…
Been there, done that, next…
ujm – How, exactly, is today’s NK any more radical than Rav Blau’s NK that (to take one of numerous examples) protested together with Yasser Arafat’s PLO against Israel in front of the UN? That occurred during the lifetimes of both Rav Blau and the Steipler Gaon.
You are aware that R’ Amram Blau זצ״ל left Yerushalayim and the leadership of the NK when he remained in ’65, are you? That approximately was when they began going downhill. The passing of R’ Velvel Brisker זצ״ל five years earlier, combined with their sidelining of R’ Amram, left them without any responsible adults in the room. The letter was addressed to his “colleagues in Yerushalayim”, that doesn’t hint anything to you? How much do you even really know about the history of NK? If you did your homework you would understand the absurdity of your question.
AAQ – whoever brought up the letter, should pony up the date. Otherwise, it is posul like a get without a date.
Thank you, yasher koach. You hit the nail on the head and got me to wholeheartedly agree with you.
AAQ – Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.
So what? Serving with girls and chilonim and being mechalel Shabbos is what will help us make the grade?!
ujm – I am aware of the origins of the term “Third Reich”. Everyone here understands what you mean by “Fourth Reich”. It’s just overkill and offensive and adds nothing meaningful to the discussion. It also doesn’t refer to a German or German speaking government, so it also technically makes no sense, if that even matters.
Last line cut off:
Not even Curtis Sliwa and the Guardian Angels…
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying, and there are many Yidden who benefit from playing the system and will continue to do so regardless of which shaygetz lowlife is elected. That is probably the reasoning behind those who tacitly or explicitly engage with Mamdani. However the real danger with Mamdani is not what he will actually do, which is limited by law, even more so if a Republican will be elected Governor next year.
The real danger is what he will say, and the atmosphere that creates on the street level. I don’t know if you are old enough to remember David Dinkins zichrono lebruch, and the Crown Heights riots. Those reading this who do remember will understand exactly what I am talking about. And the demographic situation in Brooklyn today, with tens of thousands (at least) of Muslims and GenZ useful idiots inside or within shooting range of frum neighborhoods ר״ל, is far worse than it was back then in the early 90s. There is no legal mechanism by which Mamdani can unleash a pogrom. There wasn’t one 35 years ago either. There wasn’t one in Russia in the time of the Czars either for that matter. But when the vilde chayos at street level hear the dog whistle, they know what to do.
Yes, only Hashem can protect us. Not the NYPD, not the IDF, not Andy Cuomo…
AAQ (and everybody else) – For and excellent, well sourced, and highly readable discussion of the role of the Chareidim in the early years of the “New Yishuv”, as well as the decades long campaign by the Labor Zionists to rewrite history in their own image and marginalize the Chareidi contribution, see the new book החרדים והארץ by Refael Refaelov.
mdd1 – it is not a question of what I or you would like. It is a question of which deal it will be possible to work out.
This is a very krum line of reasoning that is heard constantly from דעת בעלי בתים in discussions of this sort. Torah and Mitzvos have nothing to do with “what you or I would like”, and ממילא it is NOT a question of “which deal it will be possible to work out”. We are מושבעים ועומדים מהר סיני, regardless of personal preferences. This isn’t a business deal. There is no room for sacrificing Yiddishe Neshamos for the sake of the Holy IDF, even if there IS room for endangering Yiddishe bodies רחמנא ליצלן. (The safety of our soldiers comes before the safety of enemy civilians according to Halacha, and להבדיל every form of law except for Israeli Bagatz Progressive perversion.) I would not hesitate to send my sons to a real Jewish Torah army to do the Mitzvah of Hilchos Milchamah, but I would not send them to an Israeli shopping mall (for kedusha reasons), let alone to the IDF. This is completely separate from the debate on Zionism etc. On this issue there is no difference between Satmar and Rav Yitzchak Yossef, or anyone in between. Most but NOT all RZ do follow your line of reasoning, and that shows in the results…
The title of this thread is exceedingly gross. Better to start a new one just to stop seeing this disgusting title every day. BTW, it also doesn’t make sense. The first two “Reichs” weren’t antisemitic, and no other country except for Oestreich ever called it’s government by that name.
mdd1 – What about the shtark Mizrachim who go in shtark and come out shtark? Truth only, please.
Yosef Hatzaddik was very shtark, and came out of his experiences more shtark. The RZ kids, not so much so. Most come out less shtark, at best. They and their leaders don’t even deny this, but by them the IDF is a value unto itself that overrides everything.
mdd1 – There are many other such stories.
Tell me some more of them, I’m waiting… I actually checked it out, there are at least eight documented cases of people who fell from planes without a parachute and survived, including a flight attendant who’s plane was BOMBED cruising at over 30,000 feet… So never say never… But that isn’t the way to go. Show me eight people who became baalei teshuvah BECAUSE of the IDF…
Derech agav, near death experiences often stimulate people to think about the meaning of their lives. That has happened in the IDF, in the Russian Army, in vehicle accidents, and many other scenarios. That is also probably what happened to your friend. That doesn’t mean the IDF service itself made him a Baal Teshuvah… If anything, the credit goes to Hamas or Hezbollah, or whoever was shooting…