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I have new respect for you, Reb ‘ujm’, after seeing your comment. This is a thread that actually accomplishes something real.
DuvidF – Shkoyach Reb Noach, so, if you like, erase point #5. That is the least relevant of the issues I raised, since I was in fact referring to ‘biological’ Kohanim and Leviim. I deliberately didn’t raise the issue of drafting תלמידי חכמים or צורבא מרבנן, to avoid endless debate on who qualifies for those terms. (That there is a prohibition on drafting תלמידי חכמים is quite clear, but not necessary or even relevant for our purposes.) The main problem with the IDF is גילוי עריות, along with a host of other issues, which are issues even for ‘Dati’ soldiers, of whom approximately 20% go OTD, (down from 50% decades ago…), but their leaders ‘religious’ devotion to the Medinah and the IDF overrides these concerns.
ZSK said – Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.
A ‘conscientious objector’ in the Western legal sense is usually someone opposed to the entire concept of war for religious or ideological reasons. Chareidi opposition to serving in the IDF is clearly based on religious and ideological reasons, whether you agree with them or not. If living the Chareidi lifestyle is so easy, and it’s worth it just to get out of the pesky draft (for laziness’s sake of course, no ideology to see here…), so why don’t the RZ and Chilonim join Chareidi Yeshivos and live the good life? אלא מאי, you know yourself that what you are saying is nonsense, and the whole Chareidi position isn’t ‘worth it’ from any point of view other than religious/ideological, except that you strongly disagree with their ideology, so TO YOUR MIND they are ‘draft dodgers’, even though if you want to be honest with yourself you have to admit that בגשמיות it would be much easier for them to just ‘go with the flow’ RZ style (as some weaker ones do, that actually is the exception that proves the rule.)
AAQ said – Right, so according to shitato: every charedi needs to register with the draft first and then bring proofs of their exemption.
That’s exactly what they do… You should familiarize yourself with the subject more if you really want to weigh in with an opinion. Why you would need to have an opinion altogether when you live in חוץ לארץ is a different שאלה, one that I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to…
For everyone, pro-Medinah and anti:
1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to והיה מחניך קדוש (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.
2. Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards are impossible without total reform of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto controls Israel, as well as undoing the last 30 years of legislative and judicial precedents WRT ‘gender integration’. This might actually happen when Chareidim eventually become a majority of the population.
3. Whatever course Chareidi Jewry takes will be charted by גדולי ישראל, who know better than me and you. Those who think they know better will anyway do what they want. (No need to roll out the rusty old tropes about the Holocaust and the Medinah and yadda yadda. You can do what you want without being מתרץ yourself to me or the lamppost.) Hashem will do what He wants. Far enough forward it will be clear in hindsight who was right. ואתם הדבקים בה׳ אלקיכם חיים כולכם היום
sechel83 – As they say here חבל על הזמן. You aren’t going to convince Mr. Qwerty of anything. Just leave him alone to stew in his own juices and this idiotic thread will die out ממילא. What is the point of debating someone so obsessed with things that have no relevance to his own life? No one is asking him to be a Lubavitcher. If he wants to go through life thinking that Reuven is an Apikoros and Shimon is a Kofer (and he himself is a fine Ehrlicher Yid…), so let him live that way. Answering him back just triggers his venom glands and results in כל שכן דפקר טפי, so better to do אל תענה כסיל כאיולתו.
qwerty613 – I don’t hate you. In fact, I don’t know you, and you don’t know me… I left this thread because already a month ago I saw it wasn’t going anywhere. I was just surprised to see it running for so long, with so many comments.
To quote you:
So let me share the salient points.
1. Don’t give Mussar to people who won’t listen to you, and I don’t have any interest in what a nasty jerk like you has to say.
(The people you disagree with probably don’t have any interest in what a pleasant and friendly fellow like you has to say.)
2. Second don’t give Mussar unless you like the person you’re trying to reach. I’m sure you hate my guts as much as I hate you.
(You just admitted that you aren’t qualified to give Mussar. So don’t do it. How do you hate someone you don’t even know?)
3. Don’t give Mussar unless you’ve made changes in yourself. Clearly you’re way too arrogant to ever work on yourself.
(You feel free to criticize others, including the Lubavitcher Rebbe, because you are so… humble? I guess you must have made really big changes in yourself before you got to be so great.)
If you want more of this keep writing. I’ve got plenty more in my arsenal.
(I don’t care. I actually invited you to do so. Better you should use me as a punching bag than ח״ו to do so with the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל. If you would get professional help, it would be better and more effective. Why should it make any difference in my life what a nameless and faceless (and apparently mentally ill) troll rants and raves?)
Are you like this in real life, or is this just your ‘rage room’? Seriously, copy and paste all 875 comments to an email, send it anonymously to the mental health professional of your choice, without identifying which participant you are, and ask him if ‘qwerty613’ is in need of therapy or other intervention.
Qwerty, if you need a punching bag, so rage-post me (like you did for a few days 700 comments ago…), not the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am definitely less of an Ehrlicher Yid than he was… But better for everyone to just shut up and move on with something more meaningful and productive, especially ערב תשעה באב.
All you guys are finished being מתקן yourselves? Looked at a Jewish calendar lately? Nothing better to do? 870 posts accomplishing what exactly?
1. No one here will succeed in convincing anyone of anything, no matter what. This thread has long since disintegrated into a rage-room, nothing more.
2. The guy from the קמצא/בר קמצא story was probably just as sure as you all are that he was right… He wasn’t…
3. I’m assuming everyone here is mentally healthy (more or less) and Orthodox Jewish (more or less).
4. So what are you all trying to accomplish?
Clap clap clap. An ad-hominem attack thread Erev Tisha B’Av. Moderators please delete this garbage as a z’chus for Klal Yisroel.
It’s a general rule in Shas, that whenever a special פסוק or דרשה is necessary, it is to teach an EXCEPTION, not the normative rule.
DuvidF – The Sifri you quote proves the opposite – ONLY in מלחמת מדין did שבט לוי participate, NEVER in any other war, and we need a special פסוק to teach us that THAT ONE TIME שבט לוי was also included. The אחרונים discuss why, mainly because מלחמת מדין was a רוחניות battle to avenge the מעשה פעור, similar to the story of Chanukah, which is the only other historical military campaign of כלל ישראל where שבט לוי participated and led.
somejewiknow – The quote you bring from a biography of the Chazon Ish (not ספר חזון איש or any authoritative Halachic work of his תלמידים…) is not talking about Zionism per-se, rather לועג על דברי חכמים, something many ostensibly ‘Chareidi’ people (including on this website) permit themselves to indulge in… The source for that is the Gemara in מסכת סנהדרין, not a special חידוש of the Chazon Ish. If you want to be more Lomdish, that actually proves AGAINST your argument – If the only reason the Mizrachi Rabbi is פסול is because he is לועג על דברי חכמים, then simply being Mizrachi isn’t enough… The story about the ‘Kiddush’ sounds garbled and missing pieces (and also לכאורה contradicts the previous quotes.) What is meant by “this is the first I’ve heard”? There was plenty of interaction between the Chazon Ish and members of Mizrachi before then. Also, bear in mind that at the time the Secular Zionists were proactively tearing children away from Yiddishkeit, importing treif meat and selling it with the Hechsher of the Rabbanut, and attempting to forcibly conscript Chareidi/Dati GIRLS (=גילוי עריות for those who can’t put two and two together), all with the tacit and-or explicit complicity of the old Mizrachi זכרונם לבראך. Many of the secularists themselves at the time were from Frum homes who were שנה ופירש קשה מכולם, with an agenda to eliminate Yiddishkeit, similar to the Soviet Yevsektzia. (Some of the Mizrachi were not much better, despite pretending to be Frum… That may explain the Kiddush story, and why it seems to be ‘censored’…) Nowadays the situation is quite different, and most of what is going on is from ignorance, not malice.
The ‘quote’ (mis)attributed here to the Chazon Ish regarding yain nesech doesn’t make sense at all לשיטתו, and IMHO could not have been said by him. (Or else something is missing from the statement or the context.) The burden of proof is on whoever makes such a sensational claim to provide verifiable sources.
Seriously folks, on both sides of the never ending fight, let’s try to understand:
1. SECULAR ZIONISM IS LONG SINCE DEAD AND BURIED.
Secular Zionism is the belief that by establishing a state the Jews would be accepted into the ‘family of nations’ as equals, ending antisemitism. In other words: ככל הגוים בית ישראל. That is straight אפיקורסות. That was the real goal, and settling the Land was simply the means to the goal, but a state in Uganda would also have been fine for them. That is what the גדולים were fighting against, and all quotations on this subject pertain to an era when that belief was current. At the time, there were unfortunately ‘religious’ Jews who bought into that ideal. (Not the Uganda stuff, but the idea of ‘auto-emancipation’.) Nowadays no sane person can seriously believe any of this, because it is so painfully obvious that Zionism did nothing to ameliorate antisemitism, and the Jewish people will never be accepted by the Goyim, with or without a state. (Not a surprise for us…)
2. THE RESHAIM CURRENTLY FIGHTING כל דבר שבקדושה IN ארץ ישראל ARE NOT ZIONISTS.
The Secular Left in Israel today mostly subscribe to what has been referred to as ‘Post-Zionism’, meaning they believe that the whole concept of a Jewish State is wrong and unethical, and they seek to establish a ‘State of all it’s citizens’. Vis-a-vis the ‘Palestinian’ issue, this is sometimes referred to as the ‘One State Solution’. This comes from the postmodern/progressive opposition to nationalism in general. They are viciously anti-religious and pro תועבה, as well as all the other garbage Progressives hold dear. Some of the more extreme ones actively help enemies of the State of Israel, as has been reported on this site in several articles.
3. NOT ALL OF TODAY’S ‘RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS’ EVEN BELIEVE IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו ETC.
The term ‘Religious Zionist’ as used today encompasses a broad range of groups, from people who are barely שומר מצוות altogether, to those who are completely Chareidi in their lifestyle and standards of Yiddishkeit, but they also believe in building settlements on the hills of the Shomron to hasten the גאולה. Many of the latter groups do not even hold of the State, or even serve in the Army. In fact, it is well known that boys who show up to the לשכת הגיוס wearing a certain ‘look’ associated with certain ‘Religious Zionist’ groups are usually rejected automatically…
AAQ said – Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
So come here and join. We’re waiting for you… If you really believe what you say, then why is living in America a bigger היתר to ‘shirk responsibility’ than concern about real Halacha and Hashkafa issues is? If this is a כלל ישראל issue, so why are you (and all the other big talkers in America) less obligated than the boys who happen to live here?
LOL. The IDF isn’t Moshe Rabbeinu’s army. Not by a long shot.
Yechiell said – Why does this forum allow anti-Zionists to spew forth their vile hatred?
Are you new to this site? What did you think would happen when you threw out a potentially provocative question? (Which happens to be incorrect, regardless of your position on Zionism itself.)
I have a better question. Why does this forum allow some commenters to “spew forth” anti-Yeshivish attitudes and content while calling itself “Yeshivah World News”? I am not a fan of ‘ujm’ or ‘somejew’ type screeds, but at least this isn’t “Zionist World News”, so their comments don’t directly contradict the stated purpose of the site. Some of the anti-Chareidi comments I have seen here would be offensive to many ‘Traditional’ non-Chareidi Israelis…
Maybe there were some differences between the army of Yehoshua bin Nun and, להבדיל אלף אלפי הבדלות, the IDF?
1. No girls.
2. No chilonim.
3. No singles. (The draft age was 20, being single after 20 subjects one to condition number 4…)
4. No עברה of any kind, דאורייתא, or דרבנן, or עובר על דברי חכמים, up to and including interrupting between תפילין של יד and של ראש…
5. No Kohanim and Leviim.
6. Probably no one currently in the IDF, or in the Yeshivos for that matter, would make the grade.
ואם תמצא לומר, so how do we make an army now? Well, that’s a very good question. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of a “Jewish Army” as described in Tanach and הלכות מלחמה of the Rambam. Nothing. Zero.
All you need to do (and all you really can do) is compare existing brands/items and choose whatever can reasonably be expected to give you the best ROI. Try using resources like Consumers’ Reports and other independent reviewers, or for big items talk to repair workers and ask them what really lasts and what doesn’t.
AAQ – Theoretically there may be such a thing. Practically there are many complications:
1. Who is eligible? Since the whole point of ‘reparations’ is to play with ‘white guilt’, what about whites who have black ancestors? (There are many. Some of the enslaved ‘blacks’ were 3/4 or more white, including famously Thomas Jefferson’s ‘pilegesh’ who was the mother of six white skinned children.) Do they fit the ‘narrative’?
2. What about people descended from both slaves and slave owners? (e.g. Kamala Harris…)
3. What about American Blacks whose ancestors were enslaved elsewhere (Caribbean immigrants = most of Crown Heights, Bed Sty, and adjacent neighborhoods)?
4. Speaking of the Caribbean, what about whole countries populated by the descendants of slaves, slave-owners, and indigenous peoples who were misched together over the centuries? Who gives and who gets? Slavery in the Caribbean was much more widespread and brutal than in the United States.
5. Why do you assume West Africa deserves compensation? The local Black yokels were the ones who sold the slaves to begin with… One tribe of vilde chayes would raid the tribe down the road and sell their prisoners to the slave traders, and next season the other tribe would win.
6. What about the East African slave trade, which was a much bigger operation than the Atlantic trade, and very brutal (work on plantations in India and Indonesia, hard labor in the Middle East, etc.), and was conducted exclusively by Arabs… The Arab and Muslim slave traders also engaged in what is today referred to as ‘human trafficking’ of whites… But all this is whitewashed because it doesn’t fit the Liberal race narrative.
7. Reparations ultimately become a ‘Chad Gadya’ type of thing. Suppose we sue Italy for property damage and looting done during Churban Bayis Sheini… They would then sue the Huns and Visigoths (Germany and Norway)? And then what?
The truth is, when Moshiach will come there will be major reparations to be paid with 2000 years of interest… תחת הנחושת אביא זהב ותחת הברזל כסף ותחת העץ נחושת ותחת האבנים ברזל, and there will be those who won’t be able to pay their way תחת רבי עקיבא וחבריו מה תביאו. But לכאורה no human court is capable of figuring this stuff out until then. במהרה בימינו אמן.
ujm said – It is only applicable to Yehudim; not to shkotzim who calls us Jews sonei yisroel.
Google ‘circular reasoning’ and ‘no true Scotsman’. (If you even take yourself seriously, something I think is questionable…)
ZSK – You can find some Satmar-type Chassidim on the internet, but they have their own sites. They don’t typically troll or try to ‘convert’ to their השקפה. I don’t know exactly who or what ujm, HaKatan, and somejew are in real life, but they know nothing about the reality of Israeli life and society. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing.
AAQ – I’m referring to the probability of one’s being Jewish altogether, something ‘ujm’ ridiculously challenged. (Although technically חזקה is enough, like by almost everything else.) Any pre-Haskalah/mass assimilation maternal yichus is equal in this regard, whether you can trace your GGGM to Sanz, or Vilna, or Aleppo. (The latter probably being even better yichus.) The Gemara you refer to is concerned about the (albeit remote) possibility of other forms of פסולי יחוס.
To extend your logic, I think, good middos is the only sure sign of good yihus, and opposite – of opposite.
Absolutely correct, but it’s not MY logic, it’s a Gemara in Kiddushin 71a, which is brought להלכה למעשה in detail in Even HaEzer Siman 2. So, don’t be משתדך with trolls…
kuvult – Excuse me, it was Delaware and Kentucky, not Maryland. Lincoln actually dismissed the elected government of Maryland at the beginning of the Civil War to prevent them from going Confederate and cutting off Washington DC from the rest of the Union, which was another legally questionable move (that worked).
ujm said – Unfortunately, you on the other hand, on your maternal side is quite short and has strong indications of gentile blood.
200 years is short? Anyone who can trace his maternal yichus to pre-Haskalah times (so can I, to chassidim of the Divrei Chaim in Sanz) can basically be 100% certain that he is a Kosher Jew. On the other hand, the Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer Siman 2) based on the Gemara in Kiddushin says clearly that one who habitually accuses others of being פסולי ייחוס is HIMSELF suspect… Especially if he is argumentative and שונא את הבריות, i.e. a ‘troll’, which is an indication of guess what type of blood… Aside from the fact that there is an actual Halachic איסור to make such a claim, even as a joke. Look it up, it’s all there. If we had a בית דין with legal power to do so, you could be put in חרם for making such a statement (Yoreh Deiah 334, 43) as in real חרם, not online flaming. Seriously, get your act together and get a life.
ZSK – In general, I’m suspicious of anyone posting on this forum claiming to speak in the name of Satmar-orbit ideologies. Real Satmar Chassidim (of whom I know quite a few) don’t typically hang out on English language Yeshivish-Modern Chassidish-Parve websites. Some of the regular trolls here seem to be very familiar with the names and details of various Modern Orthodox Rabbis who have expressed problematic views, and other information from way outside the ‘heimishe velt’, more than I am familiar, and almost certainly more than any regular Satmar Chossid would be… Normative Satmar Chassidim are not hateful or argumentative (to a greater extent than one would find among average human beings), and many of them give much tzedaka and do chessed with people who don’t necessarily share all of their ideology.
AAQ – Well, for purposes of the opening question of this thread, it would be advantageous to claim descent from a slave owner. I think we can agree that f there was anything to gain financially or legally by claiming such descent, anyone who could would come running, regardless of skin color, or under what circumstances his great-great-grandparents met. My main point actually was that the whole ‘reparations’ discussion (the regular one, of ‘blacks’ claiming reparations from ‘whites’) is inherently flawed, and just a cover story for racism. If descendants inherit guilt from 160 years back, why should that guilt follow racial lines rather than genealogical lines? It is documented that Kamala Harris is a descendant of one of the most notorious slave traders (not just an owner) of 18th century Jamaica, but that didn’t stop her from playing the ‘white guilt’ card against Donald Trump, who has no known slave owners in his ancestry.
ZSK – I don’t think ‘ujm’ is a ‘Sonei Yisrael’ so much as a pyromaniac looking to start some ‘action’. I suspect his views and behavior in real life may be different than how he presents himself online…
ujm – למאי נפקא מינה? If we still have to fast on Sunday then we are still in Galus, geographic location notwithstanding. If you are referring to the אתחלתא דגאולה crowd, they also fast on שבעה עשר בתמוז (I have more friends and family like that than you do, so I can vouch for that if you don’t think they do…) There are many מעלות in רוחניות and עבודת השם יתברך to living in Eretz Yisroel (for the right reasons), that have nothing to do with Zionism, ׳אתחלתא דגאולה׳, etc. There are also people who are referred to as ‘Religious Zionists’ who DON’T believe in the State (as opposed to יישוב ארץ ישראל itself) as ׳אתחלתא דגאולה׳. You probably haven’t heard of חרד״ל or חבקו״ק, nor have you visited the ‘Hilltops’… They aren’t big fans of guys like Bennett… (Certainly not of Lapid or anyone further left, who aren’t even ‘Zionists’ at all.)
The funny thing about ‘reparations’ talk, is that many BLACKS are descendants of slave owners… (Including Kamala Harris…) Whereas most Whites in America (including Jews) can trace their ancestry to the great waves of immigration from Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century (after slavery was over)…
Contrary to popular belief, the ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ only affected slave owners in the Confederacy. Slavery continued to be practiced in Delaware and Maryland for more than six months after ‘Juneteenth’. The reason for that was because it actually was legally impossible to free people already enslaved without amending the Constitution, because it infringed on the ‘right to property’ of their (at the time) legal owners. In other words, ‘ujm’ is actually correct (legally, not historically). After the Civil War ended, the states passed bills paying compensation to the slave-owners, and Congress amended the Constitution, ending slavery in the United States. So, this issue was real, but it was dealt with already. The ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ was done by invoking the President’s wartime powers as Commander in Chief, which do include the ability to confiscate enemy property to further the war effort. (This involved treating the Confederate States as an ‘enemy’ entity, which was also legally tricky.) The connection to the war effort was to encourage the freed slaves to take up arms against their former owners and undermine the Confederacy. (Something that did happen to some extent.) BTW, all this belies the Liberal revisionist history that sees slavery as the main reason for the Civil War, when it was actually primarily about State versus Federal power (which was the hottest political issue for the first 80 years of the United States, and still reverberates until today.)
akuperna – Many critical turning points in history (political, military, financial, etc.) could be described as ‘lucky’. Jews call that ‘Hashgacha’. For that very reason, there is no need to get overexcited about any בשר ודם, although he certainly deserves credit for the good things he did.
ujm – if there is no room on Mount Rushmore they could always carve his face on Mount Fordow… To send a subtle message…
As AAQ pointed out, Jewish New York goes back to the mid-17th century. The first Jews sailed in from Brazil about a decade before Shearith Israel was formally founded. BTW, New York was a major trade and financial hub (and the first capital of the new United States) long before the Erie Canal (which, together with the railroads, made Chicago into a major transportation hub). This is the story of Galus ויחנו ויסעו. Parts of Europe were home to huge Jewish communities for close to a millennium. Bavel/Iraq was the preeminent Jewish community for almost 1500 years straight (from יכניה מלך יהודה until רב האי גאון), and remained a major center of Jewish life for another millennium until the 1950s. Almost nothing remains on location from either of those, although the Talmud Bavli, Rashi, Tosfos, Rishonim and Achronim etc. live on with us forever. Remember that in Germany in the 1920’s Jews had more rights and opportunities than anywhere else in Europe. There were some pesky political extremists with antisemitic views, but who took them seriously?
Square_Root said – How much difference is there, between the meraglim and the Chareidim?
Um, maybe because at the time of the Meraglim Hashem told us through Moshe Rabbeinu to go conquer Eretz Yisroel, and they (for whatever reason) refused? So, unless you claim to have a Navi who commands us in Hashem’s name to all go to Eretz Yisroel (and join the army, or whatever you are trying to equate here), there is no שייכות whatsoever to your comparison. Actually, the Chareidim are the ones who (at least try to) listen to Gedolei Yisroel, whereas the Meraglim did the opposite… You don’t seem to get the idea that this is not a matter of convenience, or taking the easy way out. If it WAS so much easier and more convenient, so let any Chiloni who doesn’t feel like going to the Army join a Yeshiva… Who is stopping them? The very simple answer is as the Chovos Halevavos says – the battle against the Yetzer Hara is longer and more difficult than any physical war.
AAQ – According to the Rambam (and everyone else for that matter), the main job of Moshiach is to bring about a מצב of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳, where all of כלל ישראל will be keeping the Torah perfectly (including in middos and בין אדם לחברו), and even the אומות העולם will behave themselves in a normal and peaceful fashion. That being accomplished, there probably won’t be much need for ‘government’ in the sense we know it today, because basically everyone will be doing what they’re supposed to be doing voluntarily. Why Shmuel Hanavi was not happy with the request for a monarchy is actually not a סתירה to the above at all. They asked for a מלך ככל העמים, i.e. muscle power, Make Israel Great Again, etc. To that Shmuel Hanavi said ה׳ הוא מלככם, i.e. a רוחניות leadership of נביאים (supplemented in the גשמיות department by ad hoc שופטים) is obviously better than that, unless a king and standing army etc. is necessary, which it may not have been just yet at that time. The מלכות of Moshiach will clearly be of the ה׳ הוא מלככם variety, even though Moshiach will hold the title of king and will (בפשטות according to all our מקורות TTBOMK) wield absolute power over all of mankind. At any rate, it isn’t our problem to give suggestions what will be then. The Rambam cautions against trying to predict the details of what will be and how it will be. The Ribbono Shel Olam can take care of that, and rest assured that it will be very very good.
AAQ said – Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy?
It certainly seems that way from all of our sources. Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’. Even when Izevel wanted to ‘help’ Achav confiscate the vineyard of Navos, she had to concoct an elaborate plot with false witnesses to give the appearance that he was really חייב מיתה, and Achav couldn’t simply take it by force. And that was by Achav, who obviously wasn’t a big Tzaddik.
AAQ – Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
According to Rambam there will be no difference in the physical order of nature (literal וגר זאב עם כבש for example). There will be huge differences in society both within the Jewish people and in the world at large compared to what we are used to. Everyone will have an iPhone without any filter, because there simply will be no more shmutz in the world. When the Sanhedrin will be Mekadesh Rosh Chodesh, or declare an Ibbur year, the Calendar App will automatically update. Moshiach’s Shiur will be broadcast live on all of the telecommunications channels in the world. India and Pakistan and whatever will be left of Russia and Ukraine will be best buddies… Bibi will probably go into voluntary and honorable retirement… All this aside from the Beis Hamikdash with Korbonos and Aliyah Laregel etc. So a lot of stuff is definitely going to change for the better… במהרה בימינו אמן.
AAQ – An interesting question whether every yid nowadays is a tinok shebnishba. Consider posters here. Regardless of which side of every argument you take, you would agree that half or more of the posters are confused in their learning. Even people who went to Jewish schools are not protected from misunderstanding of core concepts…
You are making a crucial point, which is central to the whole concept of לימוד זכות. The Chazon Ish (among many others, and the basis is in Chazal) basically held that the מידת הדין works in proportion to the degree of clarity a person is expected to have given the sum total of his circumstances IN HASHEM’S EYES (not qwerty’s or ujm’s). So, when we had a בית המקדש, people could be executed for some עבירות, even at age 13. Not now. Certain things are מורידין ולא מעלין, but unless someone is trying to physically kill someone ר״ל (or forcibly do certain other issurim), we don’t do that nowadays. We don’t whip people or put them in חרם anymore. So there are actual Halachic ramifications to the reduced מידת הדין. None of this is meant to condone any non-Kosher behavior of any kind or degree, for ourselves or others, but we certainly don’t need to GO LOOKING for people to be מבזה and criticize. ‘Go looking’ as in out of your own daled amos… I also don’t get why people are so excited to yell “there is punishment!” etc. Of course there is. Are all these chevrah so sure of their own tzidkus that they want to ‘wake up’ the מידת הדין ר״ל? Chazal teaches המוסר דין על חברו הוא נידון תחילה. Who needs that? And to do so NOW, when millions of Yidden are in real danger, is just vulgar and insensitive, and according to the Chafetz Chaim (based on the Zohar) downright dangerous. So who needs these debates?
ujm – Do you make the same comments in defense of, when others publicly criticize, Rabbis…
Some of the names on that list I don’t even recognize. You guys don’t get it – I am not INTERESTED in wasting my life klerring chakiros whether this one or that one is right or wrong. Hashem is not going to ask me (or you…) to give a דין וחשבון why I wasn’t מבזה Rabbi So-and-So because of some krumkeit he may-or-may-not have had. I have enough things to fix in my own life. Not because I think I’m a big Tzaddik and holier-than-thou etc., but because I DON’T think I’m such a Tzaddik that I have the privilege to judge others. What is so hard to understand? These silly debates have nothing to do with תוכחה, it’s just a sort of תאוה to win, like a video game. I stumbled into this mess inadvertently. My original message, which has been completely ignored, is that it is very inappropriate, at a time when millions of Yidden are in danger, two dozen killed, and hundreds wounded ר״ל, to spend time judging and criticizing other Yidden. (It’s never a good idea, but to do it now is disgusting.) There are many other Mitzvos for you and me to do before getting around to this (614th…) ‘mitzvah’.
Being מבזה תלמידי חכמים is playing with fire. And ספק דאורייתא לחומרא… And if you are SURE you are right, well, so was Korach… So, good luck…
ujm said – Rav Ahron Feldman shlita made his comments as a public statement, ltoeles harabim. How could you possibly not care?
No one automatically has to be מקבל anything that any given Rov says, ברבים or not, unless he is his Rov/Rebbe. Otherwise, what do you do when two different Rabbonim/Rebbes/Roshei Yeshiva take opposing positions on an issue? But to be מבזה one Rov, because another Rov criticized him, is a very not Kosher thing to do, and כלל ישראל has suffered from this sort of thing for centuries. שנאת חינם doesn’t mean without ANY reason, just that in Hashem’s eyes the reason isn’t good enough… If you and ‘qwerty’ and friends are so sure of yourselves that you are doing a ‘mitzvah’ of ‘rebuking reshaim’ (anonymously and from the comfort of your home, no sweat on your part), then be well and enjoy…
You guys don’t seem to get my point. Yidden are being killed/wounded daily, and you @#$%&! don’t have what to worry about except hocking a chainik about Lubavitch or Zionists or who cares what. Get a life.
qwerty613 – Wishing you a רפואה שלמה. You completely missed my point. Will not comment more on this thread.
ujm wrote – Rav Ahron Feldman shlita called out Manis Friedman as an am haaretz who is spreading heresy. Do you disagree with Rav Ahron Feldman?
As I mentioned before, I really don’t care either way. It isn’t my place to judge any Yid, let alone Roshei Yeshivos or Rabbonim of any kind. If Rav Ahron Feldman holds something Rabbi Manis Friedman said is problematic, then let them meet each other and discuss it privately. Why do I need to be involved?
All of us have more important things to work on in our lives than this. Its just more fun to fix others than to fix ourselves…
qwerty613 – Frankly, I couldn’t care less about ‘winning’ this silly back-and-forth with some anonymous character I know zero about.
If you recall, my first involvement in this thread (which I thought would be my last) was as follows:
The Ribbono Shel Olam already has one Satan whose job it is to accuse people for their aveiros. There is no need to volunteer to be his assistant. That (according to the Zohar, brought by the Chofetz Chaim) is the deeper meaning of the posuk-לא תשא שמע שוא meaning loshon hara, in order that – אל תשת ידך עם רשע not to assist the רשע הידוע, i.e. the Satan – להיות עד חמס, because on his own he is only one עד and by ‘joining’ him there is now a full eidus ח״ו. PLEASE, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THESE STUPID DEBATES. Do it as a זכות for the millions of Yidden in serious danger now.
I actually typed that in the middle of an intense barrage of ballistic missiles, which resulted in Yidden being killed, although not in my immediate area. That is what caused me to be upset at the inanity and callousness of pointless debates about ‘Zionism’ and rabbis in Minnesota, at a time when.Jewish lives are in danger.
To that I added one line referring to the Chazon Ish, who also spoke about תינוק שנשבה, and the fact that the greater the הסתר פנים, the greater the לימוד זכות, which mitigates מידת הדין. I also pointed out, three times, that since Rabbi Friedman is alive ONE CAN SIMPLY CALL HIM AND ASK HIM HIMSELF what’s the pshat in what he said. For that, I got back ridiculous ad-hominem attacks on myself, and on a Lubavitch rabbi in Minnesota I have no connection with, and probably neither do you, although for some reason, during a week in which over two dozen Jews were murdered, you feel this is a very urgent and important subject to discuss in a forum with only one Lubavitcher, and no one from Minnesota. I made the mistake of trying to engage you in discussion.
The bottom line is – I have no issue with you, and you have no issue with me. If you have an issue with Rabbi Manis Friedman, then CALL HIM AND ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT, and you can direct your criticism, if necessary, directly to him, באפי מרא. If not, then the whole thing is a waste of time, and possibly multiple איסורים. More than that, I really don’t care. You can consider yourself to have ‘won’ the ‘argument’ or to have ‘saved’ the poor readers from ‘apikorsus’ or whatever you are trying to do here. זאל זיין געזונט. Same goes for ‘ujm’ and all the other tzaddikimlech here who bravely fight the מלחמות השם from the comfort of their home in America. Over here we have more important things to do.
qwerty613 – I wasn’t referring to the similar statement in the Gemara in Succah, but to the Gemara in Eruvin סה עמוד א, and before you jump on me from the מסקנא לכאורה of the סוגיא there, note that no one understands that Gemara to mean anyone is פטור even from תפלה, rather the whole thing is בדרך לימוד זכות, with the average American Jew today with zero background being שיכור כלוט in the רוחניות sense… The idea being that due to the ירידה and הסתר פנים of Galus there is less מידת הדין on those who were already נכשל, making it easier for them to do Teshuva, not חס ושלום to give anyone a היתר to go do aveiros רחמנא ליצלן. That should be obvious to any Frum person, if not for the anti-Lubavitch שנאה that causes some people to look for anything they can find. Let me ask you a question. Do you seriously think that Rabbi Friedman is advocating eating treif of doing other aveiros? Does he eat treif? Does he serve treif in his Chabad House? Or is he working to bring Yidden back to Yiddishkeit, despite whatever background they may have? And the bottom line, which you ignored twice – Don’t take my word for it, ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT. What is so hard? If you didn’t do that, there isn’t any היתר to call him a kofer ר״ל, or to otherwise write לשון הרע about him. So much מחלוקת could be avoided by simple common sense. It’s hard for me to understand how people who are presumably upstanding Frum Yidden can read through the articles about what is going on here, with graphic pictures and video, and then move over to the ‘Coffee Room’ for the next round of name-calling and שנאת חינם. Do you need to hear the explosions from your house in order to care?
qwerty613 – There’s a video in which he states that because of the long exile…
So call him and ask him what he meant. What is so hard? If you don’t remember the relevant Gemara, google ״יכולני לפטור כל העולם כולו מן הדין״, then look at the Meforshim there. That’s probably what he meant. But – you can ask him.
Both of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .
I don’t think for a second that any of the Satmar Rebbes would be in favor of Yidden of any type being killed רחמנא ליצלן, so there must be a different pshat both in the שיטה, and in the episode you mentioned. At any rate, now is not the time for debates and criticism of Yidden.
qwerty613 – I don’t know about what Rabbi Friedman said. To be honest, this is the first I’ve heard of this parshah. He is however alive B”H, and can be reached by email or phone, so you could ask him himself what’s pshat in his statement. If you or someone who reads your posts has a practical נפקא מינה whether you can be סומך on Rabbi Friedman’s ehrlichkeit for something נוגע למעשה, then there may be a תועלת to this discussion, otherwise, not so much. Be that as it may, my comment was mainly directed at the incessant anti-Zionist vs. Zionist debates that fill this ‘coffee room’, between people who don’t even live here. Forgive me if I was harsh, but the sound of ballistic missiles with 1500 pound warheads does wonders for putting priorities in perspective…
qwerty613 – The Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them. The Ribbono Shel Olam already has one Satan whose job it is to accuse people for their aveiros. There is no need to volunteer to be his assistant. That (according to the Zohar, brought by the Chofetz Chaim) is the deeper meaning of the posuk-לא תשא שמע שוא meaning loshon hara, in order that – אל תשת ידך עם רשע not to assist the רשע הידוע, i.e. the Satan – להיות עד חמס, because on his own he is only one עד and by ‘joining’ him there is now a full eidus ח״ו. PLEASE, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THESE STUPID DEBATES. Do it as a זכות for the millions of Yidden in serious danger now.
To HaKatan, UJM, and friends. – Perhaps you should now do what the Divrei Yoel זי״ע did during the Six Day War (which he wrote a whole Sefer opposing) and say Tehillim בדמעות שליש for the safety of the millions of Yiddishe Neshamos who reside here. Set aside for now חקירות about Zionists etc. If Haifa and Bnei Brak were hit in the same missile barrage, that should tell you something… Wake up and get the message.
Yankel Berel – I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.
I didn’t think you were, and I agreed with your conclusions on the למעשה level. My only point was just to clarify that krum hashkafa can in fact be a big deal, even without qualifying as ‘halachic heresy’. But אין הכי נמי, it isn’t our business to judge that for others, only for ourselves.
I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit.
I got that part. To that I responded that contemporary ‘Zionists’, who are almost all of the Religious Zionist sort, encompass a wide range of people. Some of them are very krum, and many maybe not at all. Today’s Israeli ‘kofrim’, who are really גלאט תינוק שנשבה with all the hiddurim, are mostly ‘Progressives’ who are opposed to Zionism. Go try to explain that to some of the chevra who post here…
This went past without any correction from satmar
I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews… Chuck Schumer and his shtusim notwithstanding, I don’t think anyone from Satmar called Khamenei ימ״ש to tell him not to bomb their mosdos, and I don’t think any of them are saying Tehillim for the success of the Iranians רמחנא ליצלן. (Except for the 20-30 psychopaths who don’t answer to any Rebbe, Satmar or otherwise, and who Baruch Hashem we haven’t heard from in the past few days… Maybe they went to daven by the Mosque of Karbala or the Kever of Haman or someplace else in Iran.)
Menachem – Notice that I specified that Chabad is anti-Zionism, not necessarily anti-Zionist
Exactly.
Chabad treats (today’s) Zionists as any other Jew who is unfortunately confused in derech haTorah
A lot of the quotes bandied around by hotheads looking to be mattir vildeh shtick in the name of ‘fighting Zionism’ date back to a tekufah when many of the Zionists/Maskilim were real hard-core שנה ופירש אפיקורסים. Among people who self-identify as ‘Zionists’, that type doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the hetter to shame them.
ujm – I’m not a Rov or Dayan, so I don’t have to worry about someone’s Kashrus as an עד bedieved. אין הכי נמי, it’s not a poshut shaila. But טהרת המשפחה is not connected to Zionism. There are couples out there who married when they were holding at a lower level of observance, and later one spouse became more frum, and they do keep טהרת המשפחה. There are also couples where both spouses might not fully keep Shabbos, but they both want to keep טהרת המשפחה. At any rate, these are completely private inyanim, and nobody’s business.
Yankel Berel – I didn’t disagree with your basic line of argument on the למעשה level, my intention was just to point out that it is possible to be very krum, and maybe even a bona-fide אפיקורוס, without technically crossing any Halachic lines (of the type that would make someone פסול לעדות יין נסך etc.) Also, that most aspects of Emuna in general fall under the category of חובות הלבבות which only Hashem can judge. So there is what to think about there and be careful (on all sides of the fence). I agree that a person can be a fine Ehrilcher Yid who also happens to believe in building settlements down the road from Shechem, and that doesn’t make him an אפיקורוס, probably not even according to the Satmar Rebbe. The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists. I also posted here more than once that it is possible to be a Satmar Chossid with 100% impeccable anti-Zionist credentials, and still help build Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel. (Something many such people actually do.) Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.
AAQ – The Lubavitcher Rebbe actually made that exact point using the Theory of Relativity. He also noted how quantum mechanics demolished the notion of determinism, which was the bedrock of science for centuries. Newton’s ‘Laws’, according to modern physics, despite being an accurate way of predicting WHAT USUALLY happens, are not the real REASON WHY they happen. Similar to how we believe that each individual outcome is the result of Hashgacha Pratis, although on the macro level everything seems to more or less follow deterministic ‘laws of nature’.
AAQ – Maybe there is a moment now, again, to try to join together, whether in the army or in Tehilim.
All noise to the contrary notwithstanding, on the person-to-person grassroots level, there is much more אחדות here than you may think. We hope to Hashem אך טוב לישראל ברוחניות ובגשמיות.