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HaKatan – I actually agree with many things you say, but the מצב today is more complex than 80 years ago. The fact that Zionism was a major disaster ברוחניות is very clear. How to clean up the mess that they left behind is more complicated.
ZSK said – What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus.
At least now I understand what you meant, but the thread was about Sephardim living today. The Sephardim post-1492 abandoned philosophy almost entirely, for the reasons why see the works of the Hassid Yaabetz (another great Sephardi early Acharon…) who was among those who left Spain. There were Sephardi Rishonim who also differed (in a major way) with the school of thought you mentioned such as: Raavad, Rashba, Rabbeinu Yonah, Ramban, R’ Yosef Gikatila (שערי אורה), R”I Sagi Nahor, R”I d’min Acco, and more. The Geonic era was essentially prior to the Sepharad – Ashkenaz divide, although the debate over philosophy existed already then.
Be that as it may, since the Baal Shem Tov HaKadosh and the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh (and the Chida who already noted the connection between them) there has been positive interaction between Sephardim and Chassidus, in both directions.
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai, and certainly Rav Ovadia, don’t go back “a couple of centuries”… They did gain enormous renown and acceptance of their works during their lifetimes though. Actually, I just mentioned some of the ones who ARE well known. The list of Sephardi Acharonim you haven’t heard of at all is as long as an encyclopedic Teshuvah in Yabia Omer…
Another thing people forget, is that post Spanish Expulsion and numerous other צרות, there simply were fewer Sephardim than Ashkenazim, something which is still true today, in a major way. Although inside Israel, Sephardim are over 50% of the Jewish population (because they tend to be more traditional/religious than the secular Ashkenazim, with everything that implies WRT birth rate and Yeridah/assimilation.)
ujm – She davens Sephardi, (and cooks Sephardi, way better than Ashkenazi…), but for Halacha etc. she follows my minhagim. (The same thing applies to an Ashkenazi girl who marries a Sephardi.)
SQUARE_ROOT – Exactly. I mentioned that in brief, but it was a huge issue. There were printing presses in Salonica, Istanbul, or Italy, if you could travel there by boat and be on the road for months or years, like the Chida did. (He was also a Shaliach to raise money for the Jews in Eretz Yisroel, on the way he published his own sefarim, and some others.)
chiefshmerel – Mercaz Harav, although the “flagship” RZ Yeshiva, is not a Hesder Yeshiva, but a full-time Yeshiva Kedosha (and an excellent one at that, in terms of level of learning.) The top tier Hesder Yeshivos (a small fraction of the 80) are reasonably high level in learning. There are also programs for deferred service until after Semichah, at which point alumni become IDF Chaplains (who have no power to enforce anything, which is a different story…) Similar to “Atudah”, for med students and certain tech specialties who complete their education before being enlisted as medics or technicians.
qwerty613 – Just to set the record straight. Anyone who want to do so can click on my username and view all of my posts, to everyone, and then do the same with your username, and see which one of us is נוהג to “go pit bull” on people. What I did do, was to suggest that if you are so profoundly troubled by something Rabbi Manis Friedman said, you could – contact him and ask for clarification… To that you responded by harping on how what Rabbi Friedman said MUST BE kefirah, CAN ONLY BE kefirah, HOW CAN YOU DARE SAY IT ISN’T kefirah… To which I responded by again politely suggesting that you just call or otherwise contact him and ask him for pshat in what he said. You then launched into a series of verbally abusive posts that can only be described as psychotic, upon which I signed off of that thread for over a month. Shortly before Tisha B’Av, I noticed that the same thread was still going strong and racking up hundreds of comments over a month and a half, far more and longer than any other thread, mostly posts from you, displaying obsessive hate for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and using gross nivul peh to describe him, which the moderators repeatedly ignored. (Rabbi Friedman was no longer the main focus of the conversation at that point, if that even matters.) I suggested that: 1. Perhaps Erev Tisha B’Av is not a proper time for such discussion. 2. No one here is qualified to be a בר פלוגתא of the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone else. 3. Who are you trying to convince? To which you responded with another psychotic fit. Anyone can read it and decide for themselves, because again nothing was deleted… I’m not sure where Yankel Berel comes in to all of this, because we otherwise agree very often.
To the point, as I wrote here before:
I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms directed towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
No one even tried to offer a serious response to either of these posts, and I don’t think any more is necessary. Wishing you the best, and זאל זיין געזונט.
Rocky and ujm – You are both wrong with regard to the learning abilities of Hesder Yeshiva students, and I doubt either of you know many of them.
SQUARE_ROOT – Despite consistently producing the best soldiers, the top IDF brass don’t particularly like Hesder students, discriminate against them and spite them, and even those few who become upper mid ranking officers are never promoted too close to the top, even though they are excellent and idealistic and give it their everything. Wonder why that is…
GadolHadofi – Something is truly wrong with you for not understanding the ire of a secular society who’ve see millions of people bankrolled by the government to study and reproduce for decades, while they work hard, fight, bleed and even die in their place.
First of all, you speak as if the government fully “bankrolls” the Chareidim, and as if that is the reason they are able to survive. The amount of money paid to a Kollel Avreich from the Misrad HaDatot is a little more than 400 shekels a month… The VAT paid back to the government by a medium sized Chareidi family from one week of food purchases is more than that. Almost all Yeshivos and Kollelim collect money in Chutz LaAretz in hard currency, which is spent directly into the local Israeli economy to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I.e. the Yeshivos give back more than they get. Child subsidies have long since been slashed a generation ago, thanks to Lapid Sr., with no effect on the Chareidi birth rate. Government “support” for Torah is far from being make-or-break, and the גדולי תורה intentionally kept it that way, even though לזכותו יאמר Menachem Begin sincerely wanted to give more.
Second – If you think parents don’t work hard, fight, bleed, and even die, you have never raised a house full of.teenagers… Seriously, if it were so easy to be Chareidi, let the Chilonim come join us… The majority of soldiers in any army are not קרבי, i.e. “combat” soldiers. Google “tooth to tail ratio” to find out more. That is certainly the case in the IDF which automatically drafts boys (and girls!) who are far below par for combat, even if they wanted to volunteer. There are certainly many who fight, bleed, and even die ר״ל, but they are not near being a majority of the Army, let alone of the population. Even of those who do fight, most complete their three years and get on with life. Contrary to popular belief, most soldiers do not do much מילואים work, if at all. Again, it largely depends on what they were doing beforehand. It is true that a disproportionate burden falls upon a certain sector of the IDF, with a very high percentage of them being Religious Zionists, not ‘Tzfonbonim’, if you know what that term means. Yair Lapid, for example, spent his IDF time as a journalist for the IDF news service… Being a Chareidi, and raising the next generation of a Jewish majority, is a lifelong commitment, with many years of hard work, and expenses, which few Chilonim would be willing to trade their difficulties for (although many begrudgingly are jealous of the Yiddishe Nachas…) So, when push comes to shove, the Chilonim themselves do not consider the Chareidi burden to be lighter.
Third, and really first in importance – The vast majority of the “ire of a secular society” is coming out of the unholy axis of the Supreme Court, AG, and the Israeli MSM, who for the most part aren’t exactly veterans of Sayeret Matkal or the Shayetet, or even just Golani like my father-in-law… I live in Israel, in a mixed neighborhood, with not-religious and not-fully-religious neighbors with whom I have a good relationship, and experience much less hostility than I see on this “frum” website… Just follow the trail of who is pushing for Chareidi “integration” and you will easily see the pattern.
AAQ – Zionists proposed to have a [secular, atheist, socialist] Jewish state in [anywhere] (EY) and that happened, and they saved (millions) (Which millions did they save from death? The million they refused to save in Hungary, because it wouldn’t help their cause, or the 900,000 who fled Muslim countries as a direct result of the founding of the State? Maybe a few thousand were directly saved by Zionist individuals, not the movement as a whole.) from death and (assimilation) (?! Inside Israel secular Jews assimilate less by default, although the real Leftists manage to find Shiksas to bring over from Europe.) in process, and [despite their best efforts to the contrary] established [על אפם וחמתם]a place where Jews can keep mitzvos and learn Torah. I am not suggesting voting for mapai [long since defunct, sort of replaced by עבודה which is also defunct, now the moldering remains of the three or four Leftist parties joined forces as ‘Democratim’ to sort of stay alive], but we should acknowledge the facts. [That Hashem saved us from the Zionist efforts to destroy us ברוחניות, which had the side effect of helping us בגשמיות]
AAQ – I think a lot of tensions come from projecting old political arguments onto current events.
I have said that to ujm etc. But that doesn’t mean that the same underlying problems aren’t there, they just change names and ideology.
AAQ – To see effect of this history – look at Sephardim, where Shas combines multiple groups and there is less inter-group enmity.
LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!! I won’t ruin your innocence…
They did not go through haskalah and reform and socilaism – but right now, they are stam Israelis, but they are less affected by the political outrage.
Most American Ashkenazim know very little about the world of the different Sephardi communities, which is just as rich, varied, and nuanced as the Ashkenazim are. I am married to a Sephardi woman, who (despite being the daughter of a decorated veteran of the Golani Brigade) would take great offense at being referred to as “stam Israeli”. To very briefly summarize a huge topic: The Sephardi mentality does in fact tend to see community members of all levels of Jewish knowledge and observance as an organic whole. Those sometimes wayward members also tend to see themselves as full fledged part and parcel of the community, who deeply believe, respect, care, and support חכמי התורה, לומדי התורה, and all things Jewish, and would never be caught dead doing anything to ח״ו harm any of that, despite their own weaknesses. Some have attributed this to not having gone through Haskalah and Reform etc, but it goes deeper than that. (Haskalah did make it to most Sephardic lands, but later and with less ferocity.) Sephardim historically faced (relatively…) less hostility from the local non-Jews, so they tended to interact more with society at large, but still nowhere near what Americans are used to. To חוצניקים, these traits, combined with looser dress code and seemingly “Israeli” pronunciation of לשון הקודש, make Sephardi Chareidim seem more “Israeli”, but that isn’t how they see themselves. There are also different varieties of Sephardim, who unfortunately don’t always get along as harmoniously as you seem to think… although Rav Ovadia was a uniquely powerful personality, who was able to reach out to and unite very different people, and singlehandedly led a Sephardi Torah renaissance. The fact that they don’t yell and protest as much doesn’t mean they aren’t affected by the “political outrage”. The reality is that they are MORE affected. Just look at where and to whom most of the recent arrests were directed… The Leftist ערב רב, who largely despise the Sephardim and are largely despised by them, see the Sephardi Chareidim as the “weak link” in the Chareidi Torah world, and more vulnerable to “integration”. The fact that the Sephardi חכמים are fully on board with a חרדי coalition stretching as far as the Yerushalmim tells you pretty much everything you need to know about where they really stand now.
UJM – The infantile over-the-top hate language, Nazi imagery, over-emphasis on being opposed to “Zionism” and not “ערב רב” (which would include post-Zionists, and exclude the vast majority of RZ), and lashing out at people who partially agree with you (even a large minority of RZ!), all distract people from the core part of your message which is very real.
AAQ – That is what I was saying – you are complaining when someone takes away benefits they gave you before. And then you point to others who get more somewhere else.
I wasn’t. At all. My whole point is that whoever is having kids in Israel and raising them is not doing so because of government subsidies, so the government is left with no leverage left there, and little credit.
AAQ – You are not pained that groups of Jews do not feel good will towards each other?
I absolutely am. Have said so many times. It just isn’t relevant at all to the demographic reality.
AAQ – So, I suggest joining and influencing IDF now to prepare for your children being there.
You don’t get it. We want a “Chareidi” majority. That doesn’t go together with joining the IDF “now”…
AAQ – So, take responsibility and participate in the country’s life as partners and not as renters who demand everything has to be to their standard before you come in.
The children ARE the country. The Torah is the country’s life. The Chilonim demand Hashem keep them alive and safe in His Palace (פלטין של מלך) without contributing to keeping the Torah. We take responsibility by having Jewish children and raising them to keep the Torah. The Chilonim, sadly, not so much so.
AAQ – But I see the long-term “plan” now.
It isn’t a plan, it’s just the מציאות.
AAQ – Leadership asserts that members of the community will change to other groups if they were to be exposed to other views.
They ARE ALREADY exposed to ‘other views’ far more than you think or we ideally would want, and they don’t change as much as you think they would either. Serving in the IDF is not simply being “exposed to other views”, as has been repeated here ad nauseam…
AAQ – This greenhouse grown majority will not have abilities to function, as there is no experience for several generations.
Again, the reality everyone knows is that the “greenhouse” isn’t as tightly sealed as you think, and Chareidim function just fine in many fields they choose to engage in, when and how they deem appropriate. דרך אגב, in the IDF “officers” in their low twenties teach kids of 18 everything most of them will ever know (unless they sign up for צבא קבע and join elite units) about using weapons and military tactics. It isn’t rocket science (that they learn in רפא״ל or אלביט, and such, where some Chareidim also work…)
AAQ – Imagine, they’ll be the majority – would they suddenly find chochma and middos to run the country, the army, international politics?
Stop klapping al cheit for other people’s imagined aveiros. The Chiloni government officials are just overflowing with Chochma and Middos like a broken toilet…
AAQ – We had this with Jews becoming free in, say, interwar Poland – there was a lof of heat, but these were all losing battles.
Don’t know what in the world you are talking about. Beyond apples and oranges… Jews in Interwar Poland were viciously discriminated against by a boorish and hostile yokel population with a centuries old tradition of antisemitism. Jewish political power, such as it was, was mostly in the hands of Secularists and Socialists, who the yokels saw as Communist agitators (some in fact were). Most importantly, the ejector button in the ברית בין הבתרים operational headquarters in שמים was already flashing red… In ארץ ישראל, the ejector function is ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ בטמאכם אותה. Progressive alphabet soup, kefirah, and other rotten stuff, give Eretz Yisroel a “stomach ache” which sends many of the (few) children of the Lefties and Progs to pursue careers in חוץ לארץ, including the grandchildren of BG himself… יש מנהיג לבירה.
AAQ said – The more ways you can find to participate in the society/army, the faster you’ll get support.
The more children you have, and raise to be Ehrliche Jews, the faster you’ll get a Chareidi majority. Then, let them come to us for support… The reason the Chilonim are so interested in ‘integrating’ Chareidim is because they fear just such a scenario… That’s why we don’t buy it.
There were indeed very many great Sephardi Achronim, who most Ashkenazim haven’t heard of. In all fairness, the ‘fame’ of an Acharon usually is related to the availability of his Sefer. Why one particular Sefer or Mechaber becomes known throughout Klal Yisroel, and one doesn’t, often defies logical explanation, only משמיא קא זכו ליה. Among major Sephardi Achronim, just to name a few: The Beit Yosef, the Ramak (Tomer Devorah and many others), Radvaz, Shittah Mekubetzet, Reishit Chochmah, Ein Yaakov, Ramah MiPano, the Alshich, R’ Shlomo Sirilio (on the Yerushalmi), Shiltei HaGiborim, Ramchal, the Ohr HaChaim, Rashash (R’ Shalom Sharabi, Mekubal and Rebbe of the Chida), the Chida, R’ Chaim Palaggi, Abir Yaakov (Abuhatzerah), the Ben Ish Chai, Kaf HaChaim, and many more. The Ohr HaChaim and Chida in particular were prolifically studied and quoted by גדולי החסידות, even more so than by the Sephardim themselves. Geography and finances also affected printing and distribution of Sefarim. Tunisia produced many great Geonim, but their numerous Sefarim were not widely known during their lifetime outside of North Africa. In Yemen, poverty, lack of modern printing technology, and the isolated location, led to many Sefarim remaining in manuscript for centuries. Rav Ovadia’s works, aside from his own Gadlus, are a treasure trove of halachic material culled from the works of many dozens of Sephardi Achronim that he dedicated much of his life to learning and teaching.
The Sephardi minhagim and nuschaot entered Chassidus primarily through the works of the Arizal, who himself was the son of an Ashkenazi father and a Sephardi mother. That also led to affinity between the Sephardi Mukubalim and Chassidus. The Abuhatzerah dynasty is one prominent example. דרך אגב, most “Sephardim” today (Iraqi, Persian, most Syrian, most Moroccan, most Tunisian) are not at all descended from “Sepharad”, and are more accurately referred to as “Edot Hamizrach” (except that geographically Morocco is Edot Hamaarav…) Iraqi, Persian, and Yemenite Jews were there for the most part since חורבן בית ראשון. (Yemenis have their own unique and ancient minhagim, and their Halachot are based largely on the Rambam.) Rav Ovadiah Yosef (himself Iraqi/Bavli) was asked by Juan Carlos, the former King of Spain, why those communities refer to themselves as “Sephardim”. He answered that the name “Sephardim” was adopted by all communities who accepted the Beit Yosef/Mechaber (who was in fact “Sephardi”) as their final authority in Halacha.
ZSK – Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
עד כדי כך?! As a Chossid, who learned in Litvish Yeshivos, and is married to a Sephardi woman, I beg to differ. We belong in the same sentence, and the same Beis/Beit Midrash, and the same house, and most importantly the same Beis/Beit Hamikdash, of which there will be only one for all of כלל ישראל.
ZSK – Very hard to predict when the moderation will release any given comment. This results in comments apparently being posted out of sequence.
Keith – The likelihood that any of us will solve this problem. Here is close to zero. The likelihood that we are slandering each other in (and?) our brothers and sisters, who have never been exposed to Judaism is great.
You are very right. I have also mentioned this point more than once, and so did Yankel Berel and others. Many here do try to stick to positive arguments, as opposed to frontally bashing the other side.
AAQ – 1) Israel already provides subsidies. You hear protests when they are suddenly reduced.
Again, you are a little behind the news. Those subsidies were slashed over 20 years ago, mostly by Lapid Sr. שר״י. What remains doesn’t begin to make a dent in the cost of raising children. Most Leftist European countries give out far larger subsidies (to Muslim invaders), and recently East Asian countries with low birth rates tried outdoing even Europe, to little avail.
(2) unfortunately, it seems that non-charedim do not feel that growing-up charedim are their children too.
They don’t feel the Arab children are their children either. That doesn’t do anything to change the demographic issue.
(3) not serving adds to that feeling that growing population will not add to the defense of the country.
Not having a Jewish country do defend sort of makes that חשבון irrelevant. When (not if) there will be a Chareidi majority, they will have to deal with us on our terms, including cleaning up the IDF.
(4) same in politics – if growing charedi vote is only to support their own benefits, this does not add to mutual feelings.
You don’t get the idea. Our ‘benefits’ are the future of כלל ישראל, and especially the future of Israel, whether you, the Chilonim, or the lamppost agree with that or not. There isn’t any alternative or Plan B. Gornisht. Many non-Chareidim begrudgingly admit this simple fact. For a while, the Israeli powers that be toyed with mass immigration of (mostly) Halachic Goyim from the former USSR, but they vote Right wing and have fewer kids than Jewish Israelis. There simply aren’t enough non-Chareidi Jews serious enough to have more kids, and preferably have them here.
AAQ – I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting.
If there is no Jewish majority, there won’t be “the rest of klal” to have an opinion. There won’t be anything for the IDF to fight for. No other חשבונות will make any difference. The Progressive Post-Zionist elite doesn’t care, because they have a pipe dream of a Goyish state of all its citizens. (Anyone who still subscribes to that view post October 7, I have no issue with calling him ערב רב. And no, UJM, they AREN’T Zionists.) The other 90% of the non-Chareidi Jewish population for the most part do see us as brothers. If and when they don’t, it’s because of the ערב רב junta who incite them through the ‘MSM’, because we are the biggest obstacle to their vision of Israel’s Post-Zionist future.
AAQ said – YYA > certainly not 18 year old singles… So, make it 19-y.o. married once and request them visiting home every night or shabbos.
You really know a lot about the Army, (and the Yeshiva world) do you?
AAQ – So, you graduated from being a בר פלוגתא of contemporary גדולי ישראל to being an בר פלוגתא of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai? At least please resolve for us all of the תיקו and the kashes in all of Shas while you’re at it…
AAQ – I see in the current generation almost zero doctors.
There will be enough doctors to go around, Chareidi or otherwise. There will not be a committed next generation of Klal Yisroel, or a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisroel without Chareidim. (Not knocking the stronger end of the RZ spectrum, but they are nowhere near being able to achieve those two absolutely essential goals without the Chareidim too.)
AAQ – When malach told Yehoshua that he came because Jews were not learning during the war – Yehoshua could just say that when I order the fight, it counts as learning?!
Um, uh, just maybe the Malach was a sufficiently worthy מאן דאמר to tell Yehoshua what to do, whereas we aren’t necessarily מאן דאמר to tell גדולי ישראל what to do…
Or why he did not designate bnei Levi to sit and learn?
That’s actually a good question, to find the answer read the pesukim more carefully. This happened during the battle of Yericho, when Sheivet Leivi and the Kohanim participated in the procession with the Aron and Shofaros… It has been pointed out that even then, they didn’t not learn ALTOGETHER, but just not as much or as intensely as they otherwise would have וילן בתוך העמק – עומק ההלכה.
Yankel Berel – I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms you (and others) imply towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
I am still waiting for someone to respond to my comment about “sharing the burden” of maintaining a Jewish majority is Israel (and the continuity of Klal Yisroel). Why doesn’t that burden need to be shared? Why does it fall so disproportionately on the Chareidim, and why don’t the other Israeli Jews at least have some הכרת הטוב, and shut up about the lighter burden – עגלה הריקה – that they bear?
I am still waiting for someone to respond to my comment about “sharing the burden” of maintaining a Jewish majority is Israel (and the continuity of Klal Yisroel). Why doesn’t that burden need to be shared? Why does it fall so disproportionately on the Chareidim, and why don’t the other Israeli Jews at least have some הכרת הטוב, and shut up about the lighter burden – עגלה הריקה – that they bear?
AAQ – yankel > if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant … Is it so important to avoid major sicknesses? How many charedim went into medicine to help deal with them?
Stop being deliberately disingenuous. If OTD was as serious TO YOU as major sickness is serious TO YOU, then you would not be so flippant. Now do you understand?
At any rate, since you asked. In America there are many Chareidi doctors, as you probably know. (Again, unless you define Chareidi as inherently precluding work in any field, i.e. ‘No True Scotsman’.) In Israel there is Ichud Hatzalah, and many Chareidim who volunteer in MDA, as well as working in health related fields, including doctors (albeit fewer than in America) and nurses (probably more than in America).
HaKatan – The wicked Erev Rav should allow the Chareidim to work, in “modern society”, rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
But the Erev Rav want them in the army for the reason they don’t allow them to work: because they want to convert them from Judaism to (Progressivism) [fill in the flavor of the month] in their secular assimilation army. And that is a non-starter, of course.
Fixed your comment for you. Otherwise 100% on target.
AAQ – I don’t think it is likely “zionist” fault, as they were a significant part of those who survived and prospered after that.
So did the Germans… No one claims to be able to fully understand how and why Hashem operates. We have a Mesorah that “punishment” is the result of “sin”. The Holocaust certainly qualifies as “punishment”. Many people bigger than you and me said Zionism qualifies as “sin”. If you don’t like it, zol zein gezindt. You are still a Yid, and so am I, and so is HaKatan.
HaKatan said – Nope. Hashem designed this world, especially during galus, that we be separate from the nations. “VaAvdil eschem min haAmim liHyos li.” He also designed Antisemitism as a wake-up call for when Jews get too close to the nations, CH”V. As Rav Chaim Brisker noted, if the Jews don’t make kiddush, then the goyim will make havdala.
Why “nope”? That is exactly what I wrote. What do you think the ברית בין הבתרים means? That we are the עם הנבחר, and cannot escape that, with a clause for ארבע מלכויות to teach us that…
HaKatan – Zionism is, of course, the ultimate assimilation, and has spread its ideological tentacles worldwide in unprecedented ways. That is what is frightening to a maamin or at least to anyone who thinks he is a maamin.
I said that too, in different words. I added that Zionism is not the ONLY thing going on, and especially that WE need to do תשובה for OUR issues, instead of klapping al cheit for other Jews’ aveiros and slapping our belly thinking we’re ‘Sheiner Yidden’ because we aren’t Zionists…
AAQ said – Well, this does connect with Zionism. R Schach writes that because early Zs were ready to go to Beirut University, antisemitism had to be activated – to protect them from intermarriage. Inter alia, this means that R Schach thought that Hashem cares about Zionists …
Of course it connects with Zionism, that was part of what I said. But it has nothing to do with what the Goyim think they are angry about, it is something directed from Above. Who said Hashem doesn’t care about Zionists? They might not have cared about their end of the Covenant, but Hashem sure cared about His end, BECAUSE Yidden cannot escape our special connection to Hashem. That is exactly what the ברית is all about.
AAQ – But while the hesranos of Zionists are obvious, their achievements are also easy to see – all Jews who were saved through their efforts.
Something about the arsonist joining the fire fighters… (And even then, only partially.) The destruction had a great deal to do with assimilation and secularism, of which Zionism was a major part. (This is aside from the שלש שבועות issue, which I don’t want to go into again.) Many Gedolim said that, some out loud, some quietly, but to claim ‘we just can’t ever know’, or only with hundreds of years of hindsight, is disingenuous. Zionism wasn’t a PRACTICAL movement to save Jews. If it was, they would have been equally happy to save them by sending them anywhere they could go, by any means necessary. They infamously refused to do so. It was an IDEOLOGICAL movement to build a Judenstaat, everything else be damned. Some Frum Jews happened to have been saved by them by mistake because they knew someone who knew someone who begrudgingly gave up some ‘certificates’ earmarked for Chalutzim, to save some ‘old Rabbis from Poland’. והדברים ידועים ואכמ״ל. Please do not start another debate on the history, it has been thoroughly beaten to death.
AAQ – It may be not a surprise that Herzl that lived the modern life understood Dreyfus affair and what it implies while some rabbonim…
Herzl, at that point in his life, did not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about anything to do with Jews or Judaism. He was taken COMPLETELY by surprise, and said so himself. Emphatically so. He was shocked how viscerally the fine French gentlemen despised the thoroughly assimilated Dreyfus and the other thoroughly assimilated French Jews. Some good people explained to him that Christians don’t like Jews, because we rejected their religion. So, he came up with the brilliant idea of convincing all the Jews to convert to Christianity… He went all excited to the Bishop of Vienna, who explained to him that they already tried to do that, but it didn’t work… So then he came to the conclusion that if Jews had their own state, like the French have theirs, so then the Goyim would accept us as just another nation-state… היו לא תהיה. He went to his grave (from syphilis) still thinking that Uganda would be an ideal place for such a state… Rabbonim understand Torah, and Torah tells us EVERYTHING we need to know in order to be the עם הנבחר. Even if we die for that, we don’t die the way Herzl did ח״ו…
Oh yeah, and there was that guy who went to the Army Chiloni and came out as a Baal Teshuva. Yup, them’s the one…
AAQ said – teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD.
On what planet can schools teach 18 year old boys how to deal with the ניסיונות they face in the IDF, unless they are Yosef HaTzaddik? Even if the nisyonos were purely intellectual, that is highly dangerous. For גילוי עריות challenges, no amount of preparation can guarantee anything, at any age, certainly not 18 year old singles… If you took spiritual dangers as seriously as physical dangers, (גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו), you would never talk that way. And as Yankel Berel, myself, and others have pointed out again and again, the RZ Hesder Yeshivot DO try to prepare their boys, with a rate of failure almost twice as bad as Russian Roulette…
AAQ – It was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, not as a way of life, but to escape being killed by the Romans.
“Chairs, food from the store, and phones without wires” are luxuries enjoyed by almost everyone who isn’t homeless, and some who are…
“Roads without manure” are freely available in all of the developed world except for Gaza and San Francisco…
“This price can be paid either by working or serving.” You are mixing two completely different issues. Globally, the vast majority of Chareidim work. (Unless you define ‘Chareidi’ in No-True-Scotsman style as ‘full time learning’.) They also pay most of their limited income to feed, clothe, and be מחנך the next generation of כלל ישראל, and the only reliable guarantee of a Jewish majority in Israel. Chilonim, in the best case scenario, ‘pay their dues’ for three years, and then do what they want for the remainder of their lifetime, which doesn’t necessarily go together with maintaining a Jewish majority in the Land. What about sharing THAT burden, which is so much bigger?
Yankel Berel – The only decision making process that we have full בחירה to control is our own. Also, blaming any סיבה בדרך הטבע for antisemitism or other ups and downs in Jewish history is the EXACT SAME כפירה as Zionism itself…
Sometime during the life of the Chofetz Chaim there was a major tsunami somewhere in East Asia, and the Chofetz Chaim got together the Yeshiva and gave a fiery shmuez of התעוררות לתשובה. When asked what the tsunami has to do with us, he responded with a question: If someone were to stand up on a soapbox in the main square of Warsaw and start giving a speech in Yiddish, which ethnic group do you think is his intended audience? The talmidim answered “Obviously, the Yidden, he is speaking a language only they understand.” Answered the Chofetz Chaim, “When Hashem does things in the world to be מעורר people to תשובה, He is speaking a language only (Torah observing and thinking) Jews can understand…”
AAQ – You need to “pay the price” for the luxury of living in the modern world. I presume if someone wants to live the ways of R Shimon b Shetach, there are still caves in the world where one can settle.
Most children in an average Talmud Torah would be able to correct your misquote, in that it was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, and not as a way of life, but to escape the Romans who wanted him dead.
You mix together “working” and “serving in a co-ed Progressive תועבה army”, as if the two are equal and interchangeable. Working can be done in a wide variety of fields, including very low risk (ruchniyus wise) occupations. People who work, some harder than you do, some who earn more than you do, donate much money to support people learning full time so they can afford “chairs, food from the store, and phones without wires”, luxuries enjoyed by most people who aren’t homeless, and some who are… Roads without manure can be enjoyed, free of charge, in most of the developed world except for San Francisco and Gaza. Serving in the IDF involves being משועבד 24/7 (emphasis on the 7…) to hostile Chilonim who have an explicit agenda to remake ‘Chareidi’ soldiers in their image, all blather to the contrary notwithstanding, aside from the very real “gender integration issues” (that no amount of preparation and teaching can protect an 18 year old kid from, unless the 18 year old kid is Yosef HaTzaddik – get real brother.) That isn’t a price for a Jew to pay for anything, possibly including preservation of life, certainly including “phones without wires”, even if you could somehow find a phone with wires these days…
The only “luxury” on the table that could conceivably be “paid for” somehow is living in Eretz Yisroel (with or without chairs and phones and manure etc.) So, if there is no other option, Chareidim could go live in חוץ לארץ like you do… The zchus of living in ארץ ישראל is not דוחה any איסור. The Israeli government will then have to recruit other Jews willing to share the burden of maintaining a Jewish majority… Something that involves a longer and more difficult commitment than serving in the IDF, and that most non-Chareidi Israelis shirk their obligations to…
AAQ – Imagine you live 500 years ago – how much time you’d have to spend getting your food, cooking, walking, earning to have a couple of seforim – this generation is doing ok in terms of time available for learning.
You again miss the point. This isn’t primarily about learning, it’s about not being מחלל שבת (because the sergeant feels like it, not פיקוח נפש). It’s about not sharing sleeping quarters with girls (something RZ soldiers in Gaza complained about to no avail). It’s about many more things, that WON’T be dealt with, because the עברות are the whole point. It’s a feature, not a bug.
HaKatan – It is the ברית בין הבתרים that bothers the Gentiles. They don’t know or care about the difference between Satmar and Lubavitch, between Brisk and Har HaMor, between Ponevizh and Ponevizh, between Reb Arelach and Tzohar, or between you, me, ‘Square Root’, and ‘AAQ’. We are all Zhidden and fair game for murder ר״ל. The ideological flavor of the month (of the Goyim, or the confused Jews) makes no difference. Zionism was the second to most recent, and one of the most thorough, attempts by ערב רב to reject the Jewish end of the ברית בין הבתרים, and Hashem activated the Goyish end of the ברית בין הבתרים with devastating results. The most recent such attempt is post-Zionism/Progressivism, and Hashem again activated the system on Simchas Torah 5784. What WE have to do is תשובה תפלה וצדקה, and to help more Yidden do the same. Not deluding ourselves that the ‘only’ problem is Zionism, (and therefore we are OK, because we don’t like Zionism…)
Rabbi Pruzansky is telling it as it is with regard to the most recent episode of The Antisemitism Saga, however this has nothing to do with the real reason for antisemitism. Hashem created this force to keep us the עם הנבחר, even when some don’t want to be. When ‘Israeli’ tourists, who forgot that they are ‘Jews’, try to eat in a treif restaurant, the Goyim remind them. When ‘Israelis’ cruise to beach resorts in the Greek islands (right wing government notwithstanding), angry yokels show up and remind them הן עם לבדד ישכון. Who cares about Right, Left, Gaza, Progressivism, Nationalism, Communism, Jews-Killed-Yoshke, Jews-Killed-Palestinians, etc. The entire Zionist movement was based on the notion that by establishing their own nation-state they would lose the stigma of ‘Jews’ and become ‘Israelis’, i.e. a new type of Goyim, who would then be accepted into the ‘family of nations’. At the time, the global Leftist/Socialist/Marxist movements were their best friends (and the Right usually not so much so back then…), and Israel was a socialist de-facto one party state, with much government intervention in the economy and job market, for its first 30 years of existence. Then Hashem started taking them apart piece by piece, through various ‘natural’ events and shifting ideological winds, to the point where today it is painfully (for them) obvious that an ‘Israeli’ remains a ‘Zhid’, and antisemitism isn’t going anywhere… Actually, today’s Israeli Left thinks the whole Zionism thing was a mistake, and their solution is to embrace Progressive ideology, declare a secular ‘State of all Citizens’, and forget the whole ‘Jewish’ thing ever happened… That ain’t goin’ anywhere… But only the Arabs can tell them that, because they don’t listen to anyone else.
AFAIK, Breslov and Lubavitch in large numbers, Satmar (in their own kehillot), smaller numbers in Belz (mostly BT).
Non Political – There is a range of options between being in an ‘echo chamber’ and being a punching bag. I was merely suggesting to go for the more benign end of the spectrum…
HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
Yankel Berel – I’m not going to go through your list line by line, despite having what to say. My real point is that no one posting here has any שייכות to being a בר פלוגתא with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Period. The most anyone of us is entitled to do is to choose a different Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva/Rov, who may disagree with the Lubavitcher Rebbe on certain issues, but not to add our ‘two cents’ to any debate. All this is aside from the fact that no Lubavitcher could care less what anyone here thinks, so who are you trying to convince? (I am not a Lubavitcher, but I learn and love Lubavitcher Sefarim from all the generations of Rebbes and talmidim, as did my Rebbe.)
Speaking about ‘sharing the burden’, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
ujm – there is a great little pamphlet circulating now on the draft issue called הכלבים צועקים… You would love it. It doesn’t use the word ציוני or ציונות even once, and it quotes many RZ Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivot Hesder on their perspective on tzniyus issues in the IDF (among other things). Whoever wrote it understands exactly what ZSK and I are talking about.
By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
Yankel berel – well put.
AAQ – If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.
That should be true, except it isn’t… The small and vocal Leftist minority has a stranglehold on the Israeli economy, media, upper Army brass, and of course the judiciary itself… Even Bibi can’t stop them. Have you been following local news here for the last three years?
AAQ – Forget about the dictionary definition of ‘democracy’ vs. ‘republic’ etc. The Israeli Supreme Court is off the rails. Everyone knows it, even their supporters, except their supporters like it that way… They gave themselves de-facto veto power over all laws passed. Laws are written in the Knesset based on what the Bagatz will or won’t approve, much like Congress does with the President. That is not the role of a court in any country. Aside from the fact that they can declare laws ‘unconstitutional’, without a constitution… Or they can tell the Army what to do or not to do during wartime… This is complete insanity, not some ‘flaws’.