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January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503566Yaakov Yosef AParticipant
DaMoshe said: “why do you say the IDF is the “supreme temple of Zionism”?
YYA: Because it is the focal point of their value system (to the point of being what some call a ‘secular religion’). As in “Jewish Pride”TM, “Never Again”TM, etc. Just look at what some RZ write about the IDF in nearly Messianic terms (maybe not just ‘nearly’). “Dying al kedushas IDF” is to them what dying for one’s Judaism is for us.
DaMoshe said “If I had to pick something to describe as the main element of Zionism, it’s Eretz Yisrael, and due to the religious aspect.”
YYA: Because Zionism originated as a religious movement… Yearning for the Kedusha of Uganda… Love for Eretz Yisroel has nothing to do with Zionism. I moved here and I am not a Zionist. The fact that ex post facto the RZ read into Zionism “good כוונות” that weren’t really there doesn’t change reality.
DaMoshe said: I’d love to see a frum government running things in Israel. I’m still a Zionist, even with that view.”
YYA: I agree that those two statements need not contradict each other.
January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503548Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “I asked another senior yeshivishe rov. He understood my question and said – if you don’t know brochos and kashrus, you are not a Yid, but middos and nezikin not so …”
Whoa, that is not good… I never heard anything remotely close to that expressed by my Roshei Yeshiva. “Not knowing Nezikin”, as in Dinei Mamonos in the basic practical sense, can easily result in violation of multiple issurim d’oraysa without flinching. Something many Mussar works point out. Brachos are very important and are a constant reminder of our relationship with Hashem, but on the technical ‘scale’ so to speak they are d’rabbonon. (Actually מילי דברכות means מסכת ברכות which includes Krias Shma and Bentching also, as well as Tefillah.) As for writing off Middos as ‘extra credit’, it is impossible to truly keep anything of the Torah, even בין אדם למקום, without Middos. If someone can’t have a normal relationship with people who he can see and (hopefully) empathize with, how can he have a real relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu? Check out Toras Avigdor (Marsha’s Vayeshev of this year – Ladder of Loyalty) for an excellent discussion of this.
WRT the first Rov/Maggid Shiur, since the topic at hand was Brachos, so he stayed on topic. The second Rov שרי ליה מאריה.
January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503546Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 said: “the Rambam paskens that a Melech Yisroel is allowed with a premission of Sanhedrin to go to a war of reshus.”
1. Melech Yisroel (The next one will be Moshiach.)
2. Permission of Sanhedrin (Who sat in the Sanhedrin? Chilonim?)
3. Urim VeTumim (Mentioned in Gemara.)Basically permission of the Ribbono Shel Olam Himself, so what’s the problem? Fighting under such conditions is a Mitzvas Aseh like wearing Tefillin. Nothing necessarily even to do with Pikuach Nefesh. Even if Israel would operate as a completely Halachic state, none of this is remotely relevant nowadays.
As it happens, Dovid HaMelech never went to war for fun and profit like the ancient Gentile kings constantly did. All of the campaigns described in Sefer Shmuel fit a pattern of “cleaning up the neighborhood” and subduing hostile elements. He also conquered Syria to create a “security buffer zone” to the north… None of this has anything to do with ‘honor’ and certainly not “dying with honor”. The war you referenced with Ammon was started by Ammon… Read the Pesukim.
January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503507Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – When we use the phrase ‘Torah and Mitzvos’ it includes every aspect of Yiddishkeit, including the ‘fifth Shulchan Aruch’ and certainly including Middos and בין אדם לחברו (which actually involve multiple דאורייתא level Mitzvos). That’s why we say ‘Torah’ and not just ‘Mitzvos’, i.e. everything the Torah teaches us, including ‘between the lines’. I am not a spokesman for any particular group, so I am not toeing anyone’s party line. You keep on repeating your personal line (which actually comes from the second generation Maskilim) that sees ‘Chareidism’ (for lack of a better word) as a modern phenomenon created to counter Haskalah yada yada… which decouples from the world yada yada… I am growing tired of explaining again and again the fallacy of this view. So I will cut and paste my previous comment, with slight changes on emphasis, to help you understand what is actually being said and what is not. Please remember that ‘Torah and Mitzvos’ includes Middos and Bein Adam Lachavero also:
What ‘Chareidi’ is really about (and this thread is about) is that Torah and Mitzvos are the only real תכלית החיים of the Jewish People, both on the national level and on the individual level. That is the only thing to CELEBRATE and the only thing to be PROUD of. Everything else is at best a NECESSITY, just like using the toilet is…
***Not ‘bad’, not ‘evil’, not ‘rejected’, just ‘something we need to do to in order to function, so that we can get back to our real goal of Torah and Mitzvos, which is the only reason we are here in this world.’***
***Missile defense and brain surgery etc. are not the REASON we are here in this world. If someone can use those things for parnassah, so FINE.***
This WAY OF LOOKING AT THINGS, ***which is basic Judaism 101, not a modern phenomenon at all***, is NOT INHERENTLY a סתירה to working or eating or even fighting if necessary, but it completely ***!!!CHANGES THE FOCUS AND THE ORDER OF PRIORITIES!!!***, and ממילא results in different outcomes. [This part just mentioned is the whole point. The reason Chareidim aren’t מחשיב certain things that MO or RZ are, and vice-versa, and therefore SEEM to be insensitive etc., is not ‘rejection לשם rejection’, but the result of having different priorities and values.
This is as opposed to the view that sees the תכלית החיים to be Olam Hazeh, just subject to the restrictions of Halacha, i.e. to have the attitudes and priorities and values of a Goy, but to (hopefully) follow Shulchan Aruch. [Which is the real meaning of נבל ברשות התורה. ‘Naval’ means what the Torah considers ‘נבל’, not what the New York Times or the Knesset or the peanut gallery considers ‘נבל’. Read the famous Ramban at the beginning of Parshas Kedoshim and you will immediately see that is the Pshat.]
In other words, the ‘Chareidi’ stuff so many people despise is actually the קדושים תהיו of the Ramban, not a modern rejectionist phenomenon yada yada. I.e. the ‘Fifth Shulchan Aruch’. But that doesn’t guarantee that it will look the way you would like it to look, because the values and priorities are different than (some) of yours.
January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503500Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 – Did you read the Perek (שמואל ב י) inside, or are you shooting from the hip? Look at Posuk 6 for who started that war…
January 25, 2026 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503377Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel – We don’t disagree on anything in this thread. As I tried to point out several times (and AAQ kept missing), this isn’t about Bitachon and Hishtadlus or about the practical necessity of having an army at this point “once we are already here by the bridge of Chelm” which we can no longer safely undo. My point was that in the best case scenario (when their actions are justified Halachicaly and do in fact prioritize Jewish lives over politics, a big “if” indeed) the actions of the IDF have the same status as using the toilet, which is clearly required by Halacha and failing to do so would clearly result in Pikuach Nefesh… But it isn’t anything to be PROUD of. That is the punch line. It also happens to be a historical fact that during the three biggest bloodbaths of Jews before the Holocaust, i.e. the two Churbonos and Bar Koziva/Beitar, we DID have an Army. We also had an army on October 7, which didn’t prevent the biggest bloodbath of Jews AFTER the Holocaust either… So forgive me for not putting too much faith in the IDF. Do you think, על פי דרך הטבע, that it makes any sense to think that the situation in Israel is permanently tenable? America is losing its way on many fronts, and there is no guarantee that it will always be there for Israel. There are already three Muslim states with nuclear weapons – France, the UK, and Pakistan… Turkey and Qatar are waiting to replace Iran as patrons of terror. So in the long run, the whole gesheft makes no sense. The only thing we can really rely on is והיא שעמדה לאבותינו ולנו… והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם. With or without a State, an Army, or Donald Trump. אין לנו על מי להישען אלא על אבינו שבשמים.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel said: “but the shavu’ot are being – in my opinion – misused and misrepresented and that is, besides simply megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha, also dangerous and leads to pikuach nefesh”
YYA: I’m assuming that you are referring to the way the Shevuos are being used by SomeJew et al or the (fake, neo)NK, not the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל himself, who I’m not חושד you to refer to with such לשונות. That being said, there were quite a few Litvish Gedolim who held exactly like the Divrei Yoel on this issue. Reb Reuven Grozovsky, and Reb Eliyahu Henkin were the most explicit about it in writing. Reb Chaim and Reb Velvel of Brisk, as well as Reb Elchonon Wasserman, also held this way in principle, but they did not make it the main focus of their opposition to Zionism because they held that it was too easy for people to weasel out of this טענה by invoking the various kashes and alternative Shittos, which would weaken opposition to Zionism instead of strengthening it. It’s worth noting that Reb Reuven held that the issue of voting and participation in government etc. is not dependent on the Shevuos, and one can hold of the Shevuos and still vote, although he personally didn’t like the idea of the Agudah participation in government for other reasons.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel:
Sorry for not being clear enough. The Maharal, according to the Vayoel Moshe, would equate violating the Shevuos not to Avoda Zara, but to the scenario discussed in Siman 157 Se’if 2, which forbids a Jew to claim to be a Goy in order to save his life. (Most editions of Shulchan Aruch say ‘Oved Kochavim’, but the real uncensored nusach is ‘Goy’, and that is how the סעיף is discussed in ויואל משה, which is crucial for our discussion. For one to say he is a ‘Christian’ is פשיטא ייהרג ואל יעבור because he is being מודה לע״ז, but that is not the subject of סעיף ב׳.) The problem with making such a statement is that he is denying that he is a part of the Covenant of קבלת התורה, which is כפירה. The Shevuos are part of the ברית of אם בחוקותי תלכו, which contained the clause of Galus, and was repeated in Arvos Moav and at Har Gerizim and Har Eival. Denying any part of that ברית would be tantamount to saying one “isn’t a Jew”, i.e. isn’t subject to the ברית that made us the עם השם, which IS ייהרג ואל יעבור according to the שולחן ערוך. Note also that the Shulchan Aruch there doesn’t provide an exhaustive list of statements and ideas that a Jew must avoid on pain of death, even to list the Ikkarim of the Rambam for example.
January 25, 2026 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503174Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAgain, if it isn’t sufficiently clear yet – none of this is a סתירה to the concept of הכרת הטוב towards soldiers or anyone else. ‘הכרת הטוב’, ‘respect’, and ‘veneration’ are three separate concepts. A simple example – one can and should have הכרת הטוב towards President Donald Trump, independent of whether he deserves the other two items. But that isn’t the same attitude we have towards true קדושים, both those who die as Kedoshim and those who live as Kedoshim – i.e. those who we venerate as the pinnacle of our values and aspirations.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew said: “once a certain threshold of exposure is passed, and this is where many struggle to delineate clearly, they become mazid if they don’t become ereliche yidden. I don’t know if such a “mazid” person would still be called a “tinok shenishbu” in common usage of the term. If you want to agree between use that “tinok shenishbu” should only mean while they are still “o’nes”, I think that would make the conversation easier.” עד כאן
YYA: You assume that people who were raised and lived their whole lives a certain way are expected to immediately “become Ehrliche Yidden” at the drop of a hat as soon as they pass a certain “threshold of exposure”. As if the inertia of their matzav itself doesn’t create any level of אונס… Did you think about that possibility? What about people who know Judaism exists but never had any firsthand positive interaction with it? Or worse, they were ‘brainwashed’ against Yiddishkeit by their parents, teachers, or the media. Do you understand why this matters?
SJ: “This is something taught to our children in the largest Satmar mosdoses (amongst others), which is – I should reiterate – the largest charedi subgroup.”
YYA: Do you understand that the moment you even theoretically accept the possibility that ‘Klal Yisroel’ numbers only 7,000 people you forfeit any right to make an ‘argument from numbers’?
SJ: “I find it telling that you have sedarim in Vayoel Moshe and Al HaGeilah, but you have never met someone who grew up in and is a student Satmar…”
YYA: I have met many people who are either Satmar Chassidim or were students of Satmar or Satmar-oriented mosdos, but I have never heard any of them הלכה למעשה write off 99.95% of people born to Jewish mothers as literally being Goyim. I find that telling. I also find it telling that you seem to struggle with marei mekomos from the seforim of your ‘own’ Chassidus.
Another question I wanted to ask you: לשיטתך, what will happen to the millions of non-Frum Jews when Moshiach comes?
1. They will all do Teshuva for their issues, just like we will do Teshuva for our issues, and all of us will be the גוי קדוש that Hashem created us for? (Presumably there will be greater שכר for those who chose to do Teshuva before Moshiach came and made it a no-brainer, but no one will be completely left out.)
2. They will be killed by some cataclysmic event or plague or be executed as mumarim?
3. They will continue to live as Goyim, but not as part of Klal Yisroel?
4. Some other option? Going with Elon Musk to colonize Mars?
January 25, 2026 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503101Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – I don’t know if you did or didn’t see my previous comment (that this is not about bitachon and hishtadlus) before posting your last comment (Are eating and drinking bad etc.) That being said:
This thread is also not about ruchniyus vs. gashmiyus either. You (actually not just you) seem to follow a line of thinking that ‘Chareidi’ is about ‘rejecting’ gashmiyus or hishtadlus (per se) due to fear of the modern world. This is not inherently part of the DEFINITION of ‘Chareidi’, even though it may RESULT to some extent from the different set of priorities and goals. Similar to saying that laxity in Mitzvah observance isn’t inherently part of the definition of MO or RZ, even though it may result to some extent from the different set of priorities and goals…
What ‘Chareidi’ is really about (and this thread is about) is that Torah and Mitzvos are the ONLY real תכלית החיים of the Jewish People, both on the national level and on the individual level. That is the ONLY thing to celebrate and the ONLY thing to be proud of. Everything else is at best a necessity, just like using the toilet is. Not ‘bad’, not ‘evil’, not ‘rejected’, just ‘something we need to do to in order to function, so that we can get back to our real goal of Torah and Mitzvos, which is the only reason we are here in this world.’ There is no inherent reason to be proud of the Iron Dome etc. more than there is to be proud of our bowel movements (which are more necessary, hopefully more reliable, and we even make a Bracha on them.) Actually, the Iron Dome is the hospital next to the bridge of Chelm… Before they made the Iron Dome they made the reasons we now need the Iron Dome… Which themselves were unnecessary… But that is a separate topic. Missile defense and brain surgery etc. are not the reason we are here in this world. If someone can use those things for parnassah, so fine.
This way of looking at things, which is basic Judaism 101, not a modern phenomenon at all, is not inherently a סתירה to working or eating or even fighting if necessary, but it completely changes the focus and the order of priorities, and ממילא results in different outcomes. This is as opposed to the view that sees the תכלית החיים to be Olam Hazeh, just subject to the restrictions of Halacha, i.e. to have the attitudes and priorities and values of a Goy, but to (hopefully) follow Shulchan Aruch.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSJ: “may they be peacefully uprooted from the world.”
YYA: “Mostly peaceful”?
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantבתכלית הקיצור, there is a מושג that BOTH שיטות are necessary, at the same time. As in שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת on a cosmic level. This is a concept discussed in Likutey Halachos (by R’ Nosson of Breslov) in a number of places. The צדיקים who went with the מידת הדין weakened and drove away the forces of the סטרא אחרא and mitigated the קטרוג above (as in השיב את חמתי בקנאו את קנאתי), which was מעורר רחמי שמים and enabled the צדיקים who went with מידת החסד to be mekarev lost neshamos. A process that will be completed by Moshiach. R’ Nosson brings the Posuk in Amos הלא כבני כושיים אתם לי (which דרך אגב is almost always read the Shabbos before a certain date after Pesach…) where the Navi calls the sinful 10 Tribes Goyim, and not just any Goyim… And immediately after Hashem says כי לא השמד אשמיד את בית ישראל נאם ה׳ and the following Pesukim of רחמים, i.e. they really aren’t THAT bad… He explains that calling them Goyim was itself a veiled לימוד זכות, because compared to וכו׳ they aren’t nearly as bad as the Middas HaDin claims they are. These דיבורים of Tzadikkim also serve to push away the genuine ערב רב, who we cannot identify through Halachic criteria, and ultimately only Hashem can perform this בירור.
1. So it is necessary for צדיקים to both be מרחק and מקרב, and for us to believe אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים and not be confused by this.
2. Don’t go kill anyone thinking they are literally Amalek.
3. (Above and beyond the civility and care the Torah teaches us in dealing with human beings in general) we do need to love and care about anyone Halachically Jewish who isn’t a מסית ומדיח or otherwise a proactive danger to others. We AT LEAST need to Daven for them to do Teshuvah.
4. We do NOT need to love or respect their krum hashkafos or join projects and institutions opposed to the Torah.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
1. WADR, Rabbi Lazer Brody isn’t exactly “a Chareidi Rosh Yeshivah”…
2. Nothing in his quoted statement is a סתירה to any of the reasons not to join the IDF.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. Avnei Nezer:
Nu, so at most we have another sharp מחלוקת הפוסקים. The case against Zionism doesn’t stand or fall on this alone. All the Gedolim who discussed this sugya were aware of the sources the Avnei Nezer brings, and most saw the Avnei Nezer itself.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel:
In Siman 32 and 33 the Satmar Rebbe זצ״ל himself adds several additional kashes on the pashut understanding of pshat in the Maharal, including that there is a גזירת הכתוב to Patur from אונס by any Shevuah, and that “going free” because one is forced to do so is itself a lack of freedom that לכאורה couldn’t be called גאולה and certainly not מרידה… He also questions how or why there could ever be a היכא תמצא that the אומות would force the Jews to violate the Shevuos, especially the Shevuah not to rebel against them, which would be inherently impossible… At that point he discusses if the ‘Oaths’ are shevuos in the normal Halachic sense and the problems involved in saying that (applicability to future generations, etc.) which segues into a discussion of the similar kashes on the Oaths at Har Gerizim and Arvos Moav. בקיצור נמרץ, all of the above Shevuos aren’t ordinary personal Shevuos in the regular Halachic sense, but part of the Covenant between Hakadosh Baruch Hu and Klal Yisroel, which includes the clause of Galus. By Siman 76 and 77 the discussion returns to the Maharal. Basically, the bottom line is that the Maharal’s scenario by definition could only apply to the Shevuah שלא לדחוק את הקץ, which the Maharal evidently holds would imply denying the covenant of קבלת התורה, (because Galus is part of the ‘contract’ so to speak), something tantamount to one saying that he “isn’t a Jew”, even without accepting a different religion, which IS ייהרג ואל יעבור for that reason (denying he is part of the Covenant that created the Jewish People.) This is just a brief synopsis, you can check it inside for more details. אגב, I noticed that the ויואל משה also addresses in the above discussion ZSK’s הערות WRT the lashon of Iggeres Teiman. (“As if Shevuos”, i.e. the ‘Oaths’ are not precisely ‘shevuos’ in the ordinary Halachic sense, but a ‘covenant’ with the force of a Shevuah.)
January 24, 2026 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502893Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDaMoshe said: “Maybe the reason they push having pride in it is so that people will be more likely to serve in the IDF? They need people to support it in order to function – maybe it’s really just a means to an end?”
There is way more to it than that. The IDF (as the supreme Temple of Zionism) is a value system, a culture, and an entire ideology, that seeks to replace Judaism itself as the focus of Jewish identity. It is not just some glorified macro-version of Shomrim. There are those who would argue that the opposite of what you said is true – the purpose of the IDF is to bring “pride” to the Jewish people (לשיטתם). This was and is expressed again and again by the Zionist leaders themselves, and by the RZ, and is the direct source of statements such as “slaughtered like sheep” etc.
Regardless of whether it was even מותר at all, there certainly was never any חיוב to make an army, or a state for that matter, and the endless cycle of פיקוח נפש is a self-fulfilling prophecy. There was and is no need for a Jewish army to protect the Jews outside of Israel, and who asked anyone to concentrate 6,000,000 Jews in the Middle East behind electrified barbed wire (Israeli border) fences, while poking all of the bears in the neighborhood? So what do we do now? Good question, but not the subject of this thread.
January 24, 2026 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502892Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – Sorry, I should perhaps have spelled this out more clearly, but this thread is NOT about Bitachon and Hishtadlus. The topic here is whether it is heretical to claim that: “For 2,000 years, Jewish children were slaughtered like sheep BECAUSE [emphasis added] they didn’t have an army.” As opposed to everything on the subject of Jewish exile and suffering we ever received from the Chumash (Tochachah, Ha’azinu, etc.) Neviim (hundreds of pesukim all over) and Chachamim (Siddur, Gemara, Rambam, etc.) Also, the related question whether there is any shame in a Jew being “slaughtered like a sheep” IF AND WHEN that is the right thing for him to have done according to the Torah, and conversely, if there is any pride (from a Torah point of view) in “going down with a fight” as a value unto itself.
Parenthetically, I also pointed out that the second, third, and fourth biggest bloodbaths in Jewish history (two Churbanos and the Bar Koziva debacle) all took place when we DID have an army, because Hashem decided the army wouldn’t help us anymore. The mighty Russian Army didn’t stop the Nazis from killing 22,000,000 Russians (!), probably more than the total number of Jews killed during the entire 1800 years that there was no Jewish army. [Even someone who is a full fledged Kofer and believer in כחי ועוצם ידי only, still has to admit that an army can always be beaten by a stronger army, and there is no rational reason to believe that one particular small country with only one patron superpower will necessarily ALWAYS have the stronger army. Forever. Just because… So who’s to say there’s any guarantee that: “Never Again”TM.] Other than the real guarantee: והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם
January 24, 2026 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502891Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel
Re. R’ Chaim Shmulevitz.
Thank you for the source. לכאורה the precedent of Harugei Lud comes to mind from a number of angles, including also the Halachic possibility of giving one’s own life to save the Tzibur (there is much more to the sugya ואכמ״ל). It would still require Emunah that there is a Metzaveh Who gave us the Mitzvah of saving others, not simply the regular duty of a soldier anywhere. Although from my experience far more “non-Frum” Israelis believe that (as a matter of Emunah, on some basic level) than somejew may think (קל וחומר RZ soldiers, despite other issues, the Harugei Lud themselves were not otherwise Tzadikkim, which is part of the Chiddush of the sugya.) What actually goes on in Shomayim only Hashem Himself knows. But none of this has anything to do with the concept of ‘pride’ because someone ‘went down fighting’, which is a completely Goyish concept that has no source in the Torah.
Re. Sefer Chassidim
That assumes he was in fact doing a Mitzvah. Doing battle in an actual Halachic army (i.e. Sanhedrin, Mashuach Milchamah, Urim VeTumim, etc.) is itself a Mitzvah regardless of outcome. Nowadays הלוואי it isn’t an Aveirah, and עוד פעם הלוואי that it actually saves Jewish lives instead of making the מצב worse… Many considerations go into the tactical decision making of the IDF other than achieving the best possible protection of Jewish lives with minimum losses, and they don’t usually ask the Urim VeTumim or the Neviim…
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantRabbosai, please note. I have learned Vayoel Moshe, Al HaGeulah, and many parts of the Divrei Yoel on the Torah and Moadim etc. The disturbed and warped ideas being presented here are NOT to be found there. SomeJew and friends have taken certain ideas and statements out of context and out of proportion and flown away with them to places the Divrei Yoel never went. Aside from total made-up nonsense like the chulent cursing stuff.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew said: “No, I do care. I hate the reshoyim and cry for the tinukos shenishbu like those trapped at YU and HUC and Mirkaz Hara. עד כאן
YYA: Why are those ‘trapped’ at YU and Mercaz Harav ‘Tinokos Shenishbu’? ממה נפשך, if you hold they are Kofrim ח״ו, then they are מזיד, because they learn Torah and should know better. If you hold they are just confused because of their circumstances, so קל וחומר those born and raised non-Frum… Do you even realize how far you have drifted from any semblance of logical thinking?
SomeJew said: At might [my] shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.” עד כאן
YYA: I heard years ago from my Rebbe זצ״ל (who was a big anti-Zionist) that there are people who say this. To put it VERY mildly, he did not like the idea and said it is horrible Chinuch… This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who admits to actually saying such a thing to his children. So, let me ask you. Where does this הנהגה come from? Why, in the middle of your Shabbos Seuda, do you and your children need to think of Zionists and violent death, which would probably upset your Oneg Shabbos unless you are psychopathic sadists? And if you do need to wish death upon someone in order to enjoy your chulent, so why not say ‘Amaleki’?
Another question: What do you think about more often – Hashem, Torah, or להבדיל Zionists?
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSACT5 – חס ושלום, that is not my opinion, I was just lining up some of the nonsense being spewed here in order to demolish it.
January 22, 2026 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502653Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAnIsraeliYid:
The classical definition of “Kadosh” in this context is someone who CHOSE to die in a genuine ייהרג ואל יעבור scenario. There are sources that extend it to include those killed specifically for being Jewish, even if not given a choice to renounce their Judaism. Defending Jews doesn’t have anything to do with it per se. Interestingly, it isn’t pashut at all that it is even PERMITTED to GIVE one’s life to defend another, or even a tzibur. It is permitted to RISK one’s life (ספק) to save others from ודאי danger, but to go on a literal ‘suicide mission’ or even ספק קרוב לוודאי danger is not pashut at all. None of this has anything to do with הכרת הטוב which is a completely different concept, and would certainly apply to ANYONE who did ANYTHING to help ANYONE. (My guess is that non-Jews who gave their lives to protect Jews are in a WAY better place in עולם הבא than the average עכו״ם, simply because אין הקדוש ברוך הוא מקפח שכר כל בריה, but that is not the same thing as a קדוש.)
So, what is the point of all of this? Because the concept of ‘Kadosh’ reflects a value statement. This is the pinnacle of our ideals. Like we say every day in Krias Shma בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך. As in: “What you are willing to die for defines what you live for.” For almost 3300 years every Jew said Shma twice a day and before going to sleep, and we knew what we are willing to die for – Hashem and his Torah. Secular Zionism sought to change the focal point of Jewish identity and values from “Hashem and his Torah” as in כי עם קדוש אתה להשם אלקיך, to a “nation state” as in France – French, Germany – Germans, Israel – Jews ח״ו. That is why there is a major problem when ‘defending a secular political entity’ (even when worded as ‘defending Jews’) is presented as replacing Hashem ח״ו at the top of the Kedushah pedestal.
There is much more to this subject, but this is the core of the Chareidi/Zionist divide.
January 22, 2026 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502647Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDaMoshe: “We have a mitzvah of v’Chai bahem, we are supposed to do everything we can to live. If others are trying to kill us, we have an obligation to defend ourselves. When it came to die or convert, that’s a yahereg v’al yaavor, so we give our lives – but if it’s not about giving up the Torah chas v’shalom, then we must do all we can to live.”
YYA: Obviously no one argues with that. But ייהרג ואל יעבור isn’t something shameful or reflective of weakness. It is seen as the ultimate strength of character. We lost the battle with the Romans at the Churban Bayis Sheini and the Bar Kochva Revolt, despite having a formidable Jewish army, but in the long run we beat them – because we stayed loyal to Hashem and His Torah. We are still here, and they are not. Long after our army was slaughtered like lions or like sheep or whatever, we watched without an army but with our seforim as the mighty Roman Empire crumbled to dust. So having an army didn’t always help us, but we still won in the long run without an army.
The real point of all of this is: Having an army is not a VALUE in Judaism. It is not a SOURCE OF NATIONALISTIC PRIDE. The most it can ever be, even if and when מותר, is just a necessary השתדלות for health and safety, like going to the toilet… That’s all. Everyone admits that using the toilet is absolutely essential on a פיקוח נפש level, one absolutely must interrupt learning or davening to answer the “call of duty”, we even make a Bracha to thank Hashem for helping us and saving us from potential danger, but no one writes songs or poems about the glory of moving ones bowels, or sees it as something glorious or Messianic or otherwise larger than life. Everyone also understands the need for gender-segregated bathrooms and armies.
January 22, 2026 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502640Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDaMoshe: “R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach famously said that the soldiers buried on Mt Herzl are kedoshim, and he advised his students to go daven there before the Yomim Noraim, instead of traveling to other areas.”
YYA: I have heard various versions of this quote, some more sensational than others. But I have never been able to track it down definitively to a reliable source. (Not automatically denying the possibility that he said this, or something resembling this, but suspicious.) Do you or anyone here know with certainty who heard him say that and in what context? Also, did Reb Shlomo Zalman זצ״ל himself or anyone close to him actually go there?
DaMoshe: “You are also misunderstanding the words of davening. We are not proud to have been led like sheep to slaughter. If anything, that is a taaneh against Hashem (if such a thing can exist) – we are proud that we didn’t forget Him, despite having been led like sheep. We recognize that it came from Hashem, and even so, we still follow Him.”
YYA: Agreeing that the main emphasis is on ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו, but we certainly aren’t ASHAMED that we were slaughtered. The entire ״טענה״ so to speak would also make no sense if we attributed our suffering to “not having an army.” You very correctly acknowledged this yourself in the last sentence: “We recognize that it came from Hashem, and even so, we still follow Him.”
We still are left with no Torah source for the idea that someone killed fighting is somehow more ‘honorable’ than someone ‘slaughtered like a sheep’, especially if the latter consciously chose to die for his Emunah in Hashem.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ Re. Rabbi Goren:
AAQ: I heard from talmidei chachomim who considered him same … and these are T’Ch who are capable of calling out someone who is not.
YYA: There is no question that he was a Talmid Chacham. That is why he can’t claim ignorance or simply blundering… There is also something called Yiras Shomayim. There is also another thing called השוחד יעוור עיני חכמים. As in people the Chumash (i.e. Hashem Himself) calls חכמים…
AAQ: Would it be fair to summarize that he took upon controversial topics and might have ended up wrong. If a person has kelim and tries to reach emes and is not afraid to put his opinions out, then he might get something wrong… etc.
YYA: I think the catch is the “tries to reach emes” part… The פרשת האח והאחות as it was called was Halachically the exact polar opposite of the Mary Ben Gurion episode. Not something a Talmid Chochom even of lesser stature could have missed…
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew: As the Chazon Ish says, we must judge each person individually.
YYA – So now you are gores the Chazon Ish…
SomeJew: And, poskim have been clear that !!!***we must always be machmir on all sides when concerned for pikiach nefesh.***!!!
YYA: Thank you. That is what I was waiting for you to finally be forced to admit. What about Ruchniyusdige Pekiach Neifesh?
SomeJew: I’m not sure what “pligsa” you are referring to.
YYA: The same one you just referred to…
SomeJew: This is all besides the fact that with a known rushe merisha, I’m pretty sure the reasons for saving their lives include “aimuh”, threats of jail as punishment (especially for emergency workers), as well as loss of future privilege by those organizations that help enable their lifesaving work.
YYA: Maybe, although there aren’t many of those, and having ones life saved by Chareidim can cause even real hard-core ‘anti’ types to rethink their attitude… Something that has happened in real life. For the record, the היתר you are referring to was never said with regard to during the week, only to allow even chilul Shabbos, and usually in the context of עכו״ם ואכמ״ל ברשות הרבים.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDisclaimer:
This is NOT a thread about Zionism or anti-Zionism. One can be as Zionist or anti-Zionist as can be and still agree with the points being made here.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew – It may come as a shock to you that I have a daily Seder in Vayoel Moshe. I recently reread the Hakdamah. Which does talk about Tochachah to those who do or don’t listen and other issues, but does not directly address the Nekudah I touched on. Tochachah is explicitly linked to the status of עמיתיך as in הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך. Even מחאה may at least be dependent upon ערבות. We have no chiyuv of any kind to be mocheh on what Goyim do. The point of demonstrations, according to Satmar, is to show that Israel doesn’t represent the Jewish people. That is not מחאה in the usual Chazal sense of the word, and certainly not תוכחה. The Neviim and Tzadikkim at the time of the Churban were expected to do actual תוכחה as in עמיתך. So the Reshaim who insisted on doing outright Avoda Zara despite living with Neviim and the Bayis Rishon and knowing their Yiddishkeit better than we do were still considered עמיתך, but the nebbech know-nothing victims of two centuries of Haskalah and Zionism are held MORE responsible for their actions עד כדי כך to write them out of Klal Yisroel and not even DAVEN for them?! Do you understand how you are going much further than the ויואל משה ever intended to go to the point that you make no sense? Even THOSE real reshaim from the end of the Bayis Rishon, Hashem had to tell Yirmiyahu Hanavi אל תעתר בעד העם הזה ואל תפגע בי, meaning that up until then Yirmiyahu WAS davening for them and his Tefillos were delaying the Churban… This is just one example out of many.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantRightJew – ‘Eretz Yisroel’ and ‘Israel’ are two different things geographically Halachically and ideologically. I live in Eretz Yisroel, do you? I am not NK or even Satmar or anything close, as you can easily see from my other comments. That isn’t a סתירה to calling a spade a spade when necessary.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDear SomeJew
Disclaimer: Personally, I am anti-Zionist and wear a shtreimel every Shabbos. I also am involved in various chessed and זיכוי הרבים projects that reach many Yidden who dress and behave very differently, including those who לעת עתה aren’t Shomer Shabbos. And including some who used to be that way, but now wear veisse zucken and shtreimel, and their wives shave their heads… That didn’t happen because someone yelled at them or dedicated his cholent eating to their death…
Chiyuv Tochacha only applies to “amisecha”… Arvus may be more extensive but it certainly doesn’t apply to Goyim.
BTW, the list of people who are גיהינום כלה והם אינן כלים in Meseches Rosh Hashanah, as well as אין להם חלק לעולם הבא in Maseches Sanhedrin, DOES NOT include מחללי שבת. It DOES include ‘mosrim’, something many fine Heimishe Yidden unfortunately do when it suits their purposes, and it DOES include מאי אהני לן רבנן, something you can see every day in the YWN comments section.
SomeJew said: “No. I daven the whole world should be full of “Daas Hashem”, and with copius tears. However, it might be assur to specifically or publicly daven for minim as it 1) imply a correction to anshei knseses hagedolah’s established tefila for their destruction, 2) goes against the Torah sources that say explicitly that they are NOT “einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov” just like we don’t daven as such for their other non-Jewish eineklach (like bnei Yishmoel or Edom), 3) might be “madiach” chalila other yidden to foolishly think they are part of klal yisroel and reinforce the zionist lie that Jews are part of Am Yisroel even without Torah, thereby breaking the many halochos that dictate how kosher jews must relate to such minim.” עד כאן
1. “The whole world should be full of “Daas Hashem” means PEOPLE, including Goyim, not rocks and trees and squirrels…
2. Since at least SOME (probably the vast majority) of the non-Frum ARE in fact NOT real hard-core Erev Rav minim etc., and those (millions of neshamos) at LEAST כלפי שמיא גליא who they are, so what is the problem to PRIVATELY Daven to Hashem (who knows who they are) to bring them back בתשובה שלמה לפניך? Something Anshei Knesses Hagedolah also included in Shmoneh Esrei, although I wasn’t talking davka about the regular seder of davening.
3. Why is davening for the above any סתירה to saying ולמלשינים (‘malshinim’ includes “chassidim” and “Rebbes” who go to ‘arkoyos’ ר״ל, do you know any?) As soon as they do Teshuva they are no longer minim and malshinim… That is much more פשוט than saying that as soon as someone does X he is no longer a Yid…
4. What I heard from my Rebbe, is that on a practical level anyone who is not a מסית ומדיח to OTHERS and doesn’t seek to harm OTHERS (malshinim etc.) or spread his krum hashkofos to OTHERS is for most purposes בחזקת that we DO treat him as a Yid, certainly for Davening and Chessed, also for Kiruv if possible, despite what HE PERSONALLY does wrong in his life לעת עתה because of weakness or lack of chinuch.
January 21, 2026 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2502038Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew – I wasn’t asking you… The other new thread is for you…
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantA few more questions.
How was the First Beis Hamikdash destroyed because Jews did Avoda Zara? According to you, as soon as someone did AZ (kal vachomer from chilul Shabbos), he would be erased from Klal Yisroel and not count towards ערבות or anything else. Klal Yisroel would simply be the sum total of whoever didn’t do AZ or Chilul Shabbos. So how do we see the Neviim giving Mussar to these people (probably including your great-great-zaidie and bubbie) who you don’t consider to be Jews? Sort of like no OTD in Satmar because anyone OTD isn’t Satmar… No AZ in Klal Yisroel because anyone doing AZ isn’t Klal Yisroel… Except it didn’t work that way then, even though then everyone knew better and they had a Sanhedrin and Neviim and Malchus Bais Dovid. But NOW, when רובא דרובא of those born Jewish are confused or clueless about basic Emunah, including many Frum people, you think it does work that way… פלאי פלאים נורא נוראות…
January 21, 2026 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2501985Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew – Cut the nonsense. The Sefer Chazon Ish was very carefully edited first by himself, and then checked for typos by a handpicked group of close Talmidim who had a living Mesorah of what their Rebbe said and meant. And they knew the context and nuances and yada yada. Especially when it came to such hot-button issues like this one. No way to weasel out of it. How did the Talmidim of the Chazon Ish understand their Rebbe’s שיטה? Don’t forget, you accused me of “am-aratzus”, not simply following a different שיטה than you do. After you knew already that there is indeed such a שיטה, which may well be MORE מוסכם להלכה. Especially when it comes to writing people out of Klal Yisroel altogether ר״ל. So you are poshut a liar, plain and simple.
January 21, 2026 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm in reply to: Lna’ar Hazeh Hispalalti? The Dissonance of Redemption #2501976Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 said – YYA, on a different note: there are reports about negotiations (between the Chareidi leadership and others) to pass the Chareidim draft law. So, what happened to the money that was sure to arrive from chutz la’Aretz which would allow the Chareidim to be independent?
Until now there were no ‘draft laws’? So they’ll fudge another draft law and the politicians will have some quiet until after the elections and then the Supreme Court will strike the law down again and then… So what? עולם כמנהגו נוהג. I have lived here for almost 30 years and it happens again and again and again. And there are always people (including some who wear kipot, with or without two-sided tape to keep it attached to their bald spot) who gloat about how THIS TIME will be different and soon Chareidi society will collapse and they’ll all come running to the IDF and yada yada… Not impressed. Talk to me 50 years from now. The Chareidim aren’t going away. The Chilonim are dying out of population collapse. The RZ for the most part will learn to be OK with the Chareidim (who they share more common ground with than they sometimes think) and those who won’t will go down the demographic sewer with the Chilonim at a slightly slower pace. Do you have a better vision for the future of the Secular Israelis? They don’t really have one themselves, so they avoid thinking about it…
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew – I think you really need more help than I thought you did. You selectively choose certain maamorim and fly away with them to places no normative gadol (including Satmar) ever thought to go with them. 7,000 is around 10% (?) of Satmar? 90% of Satmar are also Goyim?! Do you understand where you are going with this and why you may seriously need help?
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantRightJew – I wonder how many of the “reviewers” on Amazon even read the book. It includes hundreds or pages of the Zionists’ own words, with all sources attributed. You can easily purchase most of the books quoted, and the others can be found in libraries, and check out the sources inside if you don’t believe the author. Are you afraid to do so?
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel:
I never said that it was a given that הסכמת האומות would be מתיר anything, something the Maharal says explicitly that it doesn’t, however even לשיטתם of those who might say it does, it isn’t pashut at all who would need to be מסכים.
DaMoshe:
The letter of the Ohr Somayach is most probably a forgery ואכמ״ל. Even if it wasn’t, the legal status of the British Mandate wasn’t technically כיבוש in the normal sense. It came with an expiration date (May ’48) and a requirement to grant independence to the local population. There was also a lot of arm-twisting and actual terrorism being perpetrated against the British between the Balfour Declaration and ’48 by groups like Etzel and Lechi and sometimes also the Hagana. If persecution would be a reason to be מתיר the שבועות, so why wasn’t that triggered already at the time of the Churban itself with all the accompanying Roman brutality? It wasn’t, because Chazal say that Bar Koziva was punished for violating the Oaths 65 years AFTER the Churban.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel: you mention the chafets chayim and rav grozovsky
could you point to a specific place ?
Rav Reuven wrote an entire Kuntres called בעיות הזמן which I was actually quite shocked by, because his שיטות on Zionism are closer to Satmar than anything people usually associate with the “Yeshiva World” and a member of the Moetzes. The Sefer is available for download at HebrewBooks. The Chofetz Chaim is quoted by Rav Elchonon in Kovetz Maamarim, especially the newer two volume edition that includes letters and other additional material.
January 21, 2026 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm in reply to: Lna’ar Hazeh Hispalalti? The Dissonance of Redemption #2501526Yaakov Yosef AParticipantZSK
In the event of a Halachic government in Eretz Yisroel (before or after Moshiach, the technical challenges would be basically the same), there לכאורה need not be a shutdown of the electric grid. Bnei Brak and Modiin Illit both already have citywide electric grids for Shabbos under Chareidi Halachic supervision (which serve as backup generators for the national grid during the week = win-win for all). I believe they use more automation (they are much newer than most of the national electric infrastructure) and non-Jewish Shabbos supervisors. Something along these lines could conceivably be implemented on a national level if it was a priority for the government, which it would be in a Halachic state.
Fire and emergency services are completely מותר on Shabbos לכל הדיעות.
Police could employ more non-Jewish officers (there already are a lot of them anyway). That would probably be sufficient for regular beat policing. Jewish commanding officers could be on call at the station in Shabbos mode to be available in the event of a more complex situation, and to call in additional (Jewish if need be for true Pikuach Nefesh scenarios) officers using Hatzalah style radios. Jewish police could be required to be present and prepared at the station to be on call if needed. All of this could be fine tuned by consultation between police experts and Poskim to some sort of system that would be acceptable to both.
The airports, seaports, radio and television would actually shut down completely for 24 hours like they do already on Yom Kippur.
The Kohanim would bring the Korban Tamid, Minchas Chavitin, Mussaf, Ketores, Lechem Hapanim, and light the Menorah. The Leviim will sing Mizmor Shir LeYom HaShabbos and Shiras Ha’azinu.
Everything else would be closed for Shabbos.
When the Sanhedrin declares Rosh Chodesh or Ibbur Shana, everyone’s Calendar App automatically updates. That would raise an interesting question whether Rosh Hashanah would still need to be two days. Moshiach will need to figure that one out…
January 20, 2026 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: Math Riddles for Dr. Pepper (and other geniuses) #2501481Yaakov Yosef AParticipantThe King’s Poisoned Wine
The Strategy:
Number the Bottles: Label the bottles from 0 to 999. Convert each decimal number to its 10-digit binary equivalent (e.g., 0 = 0000000000, 3 = 0000000011, 999 = 1111100111).
Assign Prisoners: Assign each of the 10 prisoners a single binary digit position (Prisoner 1 for the first digit, Prisoner 2 for the second, and so on, up to Prisoner 10 for the tenth).
Create Mixtures: For each bottle, create a mixture: if a bottle’s binary number has a ‘1’ in a specific position, add a drop of that bottle’s wine to the cup for the corresponding prisoner.
Example: Bottle #3 (0000000011) would contribute a drop to Prisoner 9 and Prisoner 10’s cups. Bottle #1 (0000000001) only contributes to Prisoner 10’s cup.
Administer Simultaneously: Give each prisoner their unique mixture to drink at the same time.Observe & Decode: After 24 hours, the prisoners who die reveal the poisoned bottle. The pattern of dead (1) and alive (0) prisoners forms a binary number. Convert this binary result back to decimal to find the poisoned bottle.
Why It Works: There are \(2^{10}=1024\) possible unique outcomes (combinations of dead/alive prisoners) for 10 prisoners, which is enough to uniquely identify one of the 1000 bottles (since 1024 > 1000). Each bottle’s unique 10-digit binary code directly maps to a distinct set of prisoners who will drink from it, creating a unique “fingerprint” for that bottle.
January 20, 2026 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: Lna’ar Hazeh Hispalalti? The Dissonance of Redemption #2501480Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ: Maybe Saul and Yoav not finishing off amelikites?
That was itself a sin, not merely bad strategy.
AAQ: Deborah chastising Barak (not Ehud or Hussein) for not going into the fight?
After being told to do so על פי נבואה.
AAQ: Implicitly, Shimshon and Yiftach are imperfect leaders leading the fight when proper leaders were afraid, maybe retired to beis midrash
Not even close. Shimshon was chosen by Hashem before even being born. By Yiftach it also says ותהי על יפתח רוח השם. They were ‘imperfect’ compared to – Moshe Rabbeinu and Shmuel HaNavi…
AAQ: Jews asking Shmuel to appoint a king, as they were not satisfied with weak leadership in front of enemies
Did you read the rest of the Perek?
AAQ: Plishtim capturing Aron, maybe because Eli’s sons were not good leaders.
No, because Eli’s sons did things they shouldn’t have done and that created a קטרוג on Klal Yisroel because it was allowed to go on.
AAQ: Apocrypha about Macabees not fighting on shabbat
??? So what? That also doesn’t make sense, and may be a forgery.
AAQ: Most importantly, I think, Jews most of the time did not think about submitting to the enemies when it was possible to fight, so praise to Yehoshua/David/Deborah etc for fighting shows that having army is ok.
They also brought Korbanos and were praised for doing so. Is it OK to bring Korbanos today?
Keep on trying if you want.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAnIsraeliYid – “Your crack about “political considerations” is also misguided. In most cases, it is world pressure that causes Israel to hold back from using full force. Unfortunately, paying at least some attention to this is necessary in today’s world, where Israel is dependent on the world for weaponry and raw materials for the weapons it manufactures itself. I agree that this is not optimal – but it’s necessary.”
Where do you see that in הלכות שבת? You hold BOTH אתחלתא דגאולה AND that it is OK to sacrifice hundreds of Jewish lives to pander to world opinion?! If this is Geulah and הלכות מלכים, then עד רדתה and don’t look back. If this is Galus and ad hoc as in הלכות שבת, THEN the rules of the game are completely different. In either scenario there is no היתר to sacrifice Jewish lives בוודאי because of a ספק that maybe the Goyim will then be happy. So your post and Israeli policy both make no sense either way.
The Gedolim usually DO explain themselves, but not on line or out loud. Whoever seriously wants to find out can easily do so if you know where and who to ask.
January 20, 2026 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2501478Yaakov Yosef AParticipantsomejew – Do you hold that the Chazon Ish knew how to learn?
January 20, 2026 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2501473Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – My choice of chronology is based on the simple reality that back then many Maskilim had learned in Volozhin or other high level Yeshivos. They at least were raised Frum. Up to and including most of the founders of the State. Nowadays most secular Jews truly know almost nothing.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantsomejew – I deliberately didn’t go into the details, because whoever wants to debate will do so anyway. But even the RZ Rabbonim (at least the earlier ones) understood that they had to deal with this issue. Another very common mistake that you alluded to is people thinking that the Shevuah of the Yidden is conditioned on the Goyim keeping their Shevuah, which it isn’t. Among other reasons, because we didn’t swear to THEM, but to the Ribbono Shel Olam. The British also had no right to speak on behalf of the Arabs, something the Arabs still resent down to today. So the Balfour Declaration wasn’t מתיר anything. At any rate, even those who kvetched sevaras or maybe even forged letters, all held that they HAD to say SOMETHING about the Oaths. So they were in a better matzav than many ostensibly ‘Chareidi’ Yidden today.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantHaLeiVi – Your last post hit the nail on the head 100% It is impossible to simply ignore a Gemara. A fact that didn’t escape the vast majority of Rabbonim on both sides of the debate on Zionism.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantHaLeiVi – I do refer to almost all other RZ Rabbonim at least as ‘Rav’, but that one was seriously beyond the pale. But you do have a valid point.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantsomejew – The number mentioned is 7000, not 6000. The source is a Midrash quoted by Rebbe Avraham Azulai זי״ע author of חסד לאברהם and אור החמה. The Satmar Rebbe זי״ע did mention that.
You asked – “Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible? I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.” עד כאן דבריו
If you “have no issue” with that happening in the literal sense of the word, then don’t worry about it, you also won’t be there. Personally I don’t think I am in the top 7,000 of Klal Yisroel either. If you think you are, then you probably have other issues you need to do Teshuva for if you want to make it there alive. Note that even אם תמצי לומר that this Midrash no other source ever quoted is meant literally, it isn’t talking about who will go to עולם הבא, only who will survive the final חבלי משיח in עולם הזה. It also contradicts dozens of Pesukim and מאמרי חז״ל, aside from multiple other kashes.
Why would you have a הוה אמינא to base your entire השקפת החיים on this one (very novel and not poshut at all) source? You do know that the Divrei Yoel זי״ע himself did much chessed and tzedakah even with Jews who didn’t follow his Shittos, do you?
You said – “what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva)” עד כאן
You mixed up Pshat in the Gemora in Rosh Hashana לבלי חוק אפילו חוק אחד. That isn’t the standard for losing Olam Haba. That is the standard for entry to Gehennom, after which מבצבצין ועולין. By the way, learning Torah is a good way to avoid or reduce Gehennom, and it gives you a much more positive attitude in Olam Hazeh too.
I don’t understand why some people are so obsessed with anger and negativism. Why do you or ‘ujm’ care who will be in Olam Haba? Are you finished with yourselves? This has nothing to do with Zionism or the Medinah or Chuck Schumer. Hashem has His ways of bringing back whoever needs to come back, and getting rid of whoever needs getting rid of. יבוא בעל הכרם ויכלה קוציו. That has nothing to do with our job in this world.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantujm – “YYA: Your count of total Jews is way off base. Where did you pull that figure?”
From publicly available information culled from multiple sources, most of whom would not be inclined to inflate the number of Chareidim or even Jews in general. Please provide alternative numbers if you can.
ujm – “Firstly, you’re probably including Goyim who call themselves Jews. (Non-Orthodox and Zionist political conversions and their offspring for centuries; so-called “patrilineal” Jews and their offspring for generations; etc.)”
No. If you include those (i.e. ‘law of return’ “Jews”) the number goes up to 24 million.
ujm – “But that’s the smaller issue with your figure; you’re missing all the Jews who R”L shmaded to another religion and their offspring for millennia; all the Jews who R”L were born Jewish but considered themselves non-Jewish and their offspring for millennia; etc.”
Those are bona-fide תינוקות שנשבו in the literal sense. What do you do with the Rashi in Yeshaya who explicitly says Moshiach will bring them back? What about והביאו את כל אחיכם? What about איש לא נעדר? What about ובאו האובדים בארץ אשור והנידחים בארץ מצרים? What about וחשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נידח? What about ועמדו רגליו ביום ההוא? What about מוריד שאול ויעל? And more and more and more… Why the blood lust for sending the Ribbono Shel Olam’s children to Gehennom ר״ל? Just to make yourself feel better? If you really think Pshat in Sanhedrin is literally 1/300,000 Jews, do you think you and ‘qwerty’ will make the grade?
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