Yaakov Yosef A

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  • in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2436653
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.

    Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2436645
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Yankel Berel – I’m not going to go through your list line by line, despite having what to say. My real point is that no one posting here has any שייכות to being a בר פלוגתא with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Period. The most anyone of us is entitled to do is to choose a different Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva/Rov, who may disagree with the Lubavitcher Rebbe on certain issues, but not to add our ‘two cents’ to any debate. All this is aside from the fact that no Lubavitcher could care less what anyone here thinks, so who are you trying to convince? (I am not a Lubavitcher, but I learn and love Lubavitcher Sefarim from all the generations of Rebbes and talmidim, as did my Rebbe.)

    in reply to: The Peaceful Dismantlement of the State of “Israel” #2436629
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Speaking about ‘sharing the burden’, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2436628
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2436597
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ujm – there is a great little pamphlet circulating now on the draft issue called הכלבים צועקים… You would love it. It doesn’t use the word ציוני or ציונות even once, and it quotes many RZ Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivot Hesder on their perspective on tzniyus issues in the IDF (among other things). Whoever wrote it understands exactly what ZSK and I are talking about.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Yankel berel – well put.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.

    That should be true, except it isn’t… The small and vocal Leftist minority has a stranglehold on the Israeli economy, media, upper Army brass, and of course the judiciary itself… Even Bibi can’t stop them. Have you been following local news here for the last three years?

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – Forget about the dictionary definition of ‘democracy’ vs. ‘republic’ etc. The Israeli Supreme Court is off the rails. Everyone knows it, even their supporters, except their supporters like it that way… They gave themselves de-facto veto power over all laws passed. Laws are written in the Knesset based on what the Bagatz will or won’t approve, much like Congress does with the President. That is not the role of a court in any country. Aside from the fact that they can declare laws ‘unconstitutional’, without a constitution… Or they can tell the Army what to do or not to do during wartime… This is complete insanity, not some ‘flaws’.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ZSK – I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it.

    Sure it does… ואכמ״ל

    ZSK – IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.

    So was the Cantonist decree or any other גזרות שמד.

    ZSK – Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns them.

    They are there, and they can leave. The Kanoyim are still here after 77 years of not being in the government or taking money from them. If they call their bluff, there won’t be anything remaining for the Left to leverage.

    ZSK – I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw.

    ממה נפשך, if they are for real, they will listen to the גדולי תורה. If not ח״ו, they will have an opportunity to choose. I also have seen a lot in almost 30 years of living in Israel, though I don’t agree with your assessment. My gut feeling is that when push comes to shove more are for real than you think. (I also think that the real loser of this מצב will be the AG/Bagatz Junta, becaus more ‘Chilonim’ are מאמינים than many here think, and civil war ר״ל is not an option for anyone.)

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ZSK – But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments.

    I understand where you are coming from, but look at it the other way. (Don’t get me wrong, and I am not trying to make a 1:1 comparison in terms of intensity.) There were ‘laws on the books’ in the time of the Greeks, the Romans, all of Medieval Europe, Spain, Russia… The גדולי התורה of those generations taught us that our ‘ideological arguments’, i.e. the Torah (its letter and spirit) come before those laws. Sometimes we had a נס חנוכה, and sometimes we were tortured and slaughtered, but we are still here, and they are long gone… You may argue that here it is different, because it’s a ‘Jewish’ state with Chareidi participation in government, etc. The bottom line is that ALL of the Chareidi (and some RZ) Gedolei Torah aren’t buying it. As I have mentioned previously, the consensus is far too broad to blame on politics. This is real, whether anyone likes it or not. If it means all Chareidim becoming Kanoyim, with all that implies, so be it. We aren’t going anywhere, and there isn’t enough room in Israeli jails for 54,000 boys. The Israeli government will not be able to do anything more brutal than Antiochus or Hadrian or Czar Nicholas I ימח שמם. Then, as now, the point of the ‘laws’ was to integrate the Jews into their vision of the broader society, and they didn’t see themselves as villains or oppressors for trying to do so.

    The reality is that the IDF has no use for thousands of Chareidi soldiers who ‘aren’t with the program’. For them this is a bigger pain in the neck then the Hilltop Youth (who at least believe in fighting Arabs…) Left to their own devices, the IDF brass (and probably Bibi and most of the politicians) wanted somewhat more of what has been going on until now – ויזנב בך כל הנחשלים אחריך to turn into Chardakim, some of whom may finish off still outwardly resemble Chareidim enough to be able to convince a new and slightly larger crop to join the next round. IMHO, the AG and Bagatz are (most unwilling) שליחים of the השגחה עליונה to raise the bar too high and too fast, and break the cycle. They themselves don’t understand that their actions and words are doing more to stop Chareidi recruitment (among those somewhat more serious, but still בקצה המחנה) than anything the גדולי תורה could have done on their own. This מצב will force the ‘at risk’ demographic to decide who they are and where they want to be. This will also harden and unify Chareidi positions on issues that may otherwise have been negotiable or internally contentious. Those who will leave will primarily be those who were looking to leave anyway. (Same thing that happened with the Hellenists, Meshumadim, Maskilim, etc.)

    The bottom line is, pitting the ‘rule of law’ (something that isn’t exactly Israel’s strong point even in the best of times…) against the rule of Torah (as interpreted by the real גדולי ישראל, the ones the דעת בעלי בתים don’t like…) will not work. It might not be pretty, but it won’t work.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2435541
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Sechel – I’m also a little suspicious about who ‘CS’ really is. If she just wants to be מתחזק with friends, there are plenty of Chabad and Chabad friendly websites and social media. However, the moderators should really clean up anything going near ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, of ANY kind, or hate language, again of ANY kind. (It says so in the rules, doesn’t it?)

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2435537
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Non political – The previous thread with the same name 3.0 was completely taken over by a disturbed troll who rambled out hundreds of posts full of crude hate language, including towards the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself. Either the moderators have to start doing their job, or just avoid certain subjects until they do.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed.

    The bottom line is, our job is to serve Hashem on His terms, as defined in the Torah, as taught by גדולי הדורות חכמי התורה. That’s where it starts, and that’s where it ends. That is the definition of the Jewish People, that Hashem miraculously kept going through the millennia. The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. We ARE an outside entity, because we define our national identity and covenant in completely different terms. We were here first, and we will be here last. How exactly that will work out is Hashem’s business. Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור. If you don’t like that, you can live your life how you see fit, I have no ability or desire to tell anyone what to do. The מצב בשטח, as they say here, is that most of the PEOPLE of Israel are much closer to Yiddishkeit than the STATE and its institutions are. I am involved in Kiruv on a number of levels, and I see it every day. But even in Kiruv, our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2435178
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    I’m starting to question whether posting here is worth it altogether, seeing the same דעת בעלי בתים tropes paraded day in and day out, often by people who live in חוץ לארץ and are far removed from the reality on the ground (and from serving in the IDF themselves…)

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2435177
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Are Roster – Preventing גילוי עריות does in fact come before saving Jewish lives. I know already the tropes you will answer with, and I don’t have time to repeat the answers on every new thread. Ask your local תלמיד חכם to explain the sugya. Suffice it to say that ALL the גדולי תורה here in Israel are united on this issue.

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2435175
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Simcha613 – Everything in Torah is ‘vague’ without the guidance of חכמי התורה גדולי הדור. Especially inyanim of Emunah and Hashkafah. That ‘vagueness’ is where דעת בעלי בתים comes from… There are many other problems with the IDF, that the Israeli government has no interest (or even legal ability for now) to adress. The גדולי הדור will decide what to do למעשה. Any further discussion is in fact ‘beating to death’ and a waste of time.

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2435168
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Ari Knobler – The Gemara you quote is referring to the learner himself. The Maharsha over there is referring to Doeg and Achitofel, and why their Torah learning didn’t protect them from dying prematurely (as punishment for their רשעות). Your attitude is called מאי אהני לן רבנן (as in היכי דמי אפיקורוס…), discussed in Sanhedrin 99b and the mefarshim there. If you are smart enough to read the Maharsha and quote half of it, you can easily find the relevant sources if you want to… At any rate, neither you or me can decide these matters למעשה, only גדולי הדור. If you don’t like it, then do what you want. כלל ישראל will keep on going…

    You are accusing Chareidim of “cowardice” and “ideological convenience”? So, let all the Chiloni cowards join Yeshivos, if it is in fact so easy and convenient… Get real. Chareidim ‘give up’ many things secular Israelis (and MO) hold dear, for the sake of their ideology. If you think that the existence of כלל ישראל altogether, and our survival through the generations, is not the direct result of Divine Providence, which is dependent upon the ברית ושבועה at הר סיני when we got the Torah and promised to learn it and keep it, then ח״ו you have less אמונה than millions of believing Goyim… I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I don’t think you really were מתיישב what you even wrote, because it’s so off kilter Jewishly speaking.

    As it is, the real issue with the army is גילוי עריות, as has been discussed here many times, and hinted to in ‘yeshivaman613’s post here. We believe that אלקיהם של אלה שונא זימה הוא, and והיה מחניך קדוש (as in the ARMY מחנה…), do you?

    Moshiach’s army?! LOL!!!!!! הלוואי the Roshei Yeshiva and some of the Maggidei Shiur might make the grade… Maybe… You’re comparing that to a Chiloni co-ed cesspool?! Not even a joke. In Moshiach’s army (if he will even need one) they won’t have abortion clinics… There will be some other differences too…

    By the way, which IDF unit did you serve in?

    in reply to: Learning Torah protects #2435161
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ujm – This is the second time I completely agree with a post of yours.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2434972
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – Same happened before between chassidim and misnagdim

    A good example that has been noted by both Chassidim and Litvaks. Again, not davka through ‘learning’ by each other (although here too that has also happened), but simply by example.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2434970
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    HaKatan – The wicked Israeli Left (ערב רב) is pushing all kinds of filthy progressive ‘treif alphabet soup’ ideology, as well as kefirah and sometimes avoda zara (‘Bagrut’ points for studying other religions in high school, for example. Did you know about that?). They aborted more Jewish babies than the Nazis killed children in the Holocaust (2,000,000 plus vs. about 1,500,000, so much for them caring about ‘Jewish continuity’). They do all kinds of filthy and wicked things you don’t even know about. But they are so far off that they don’t even believe in ‘Zionism’ any more… So, when you yell about ‘Zionism’, you miss the point. It’s like the whole point of what they are doing is just to try to get you to say ‘Zionism’, and then they trapped your Neshama… Knowing the enemy (and who the real enemy is) is the most critical thing in battle (not trying to plagiarize Sun Tsu). Many, if not most ‘RZ’ people today in Israel, are significantly more ehrlich than the average MO in America. Some RZ are basically Chareidim in different clothing, and with some idealism about building settlements etc. They aren’t Kofrim. Neither are Belz and Vizhnitz and Ger… (Who do take limited money from the Medinah.) The real bad guys (who are dwindling in numbers) don’t even call themselves Zionists. Try Googling ‘Post-Zionism’, or read a little about the ‘Bagatz’ and the ‘Rotschild protests’. Half of what you write is dated and no longer correct, and the other half is correct, but it isn’t ‘Zionism’ any more. Understanding the issues better, and targeting your bullets where they belong, will make your message more effective and less offensive.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2434960
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Chabad Shlucha – Please don’t take what I said personally. I have the utmost respect for Chabad and especially the Shlichim. The Rebbe זצ״ל didn’t hold of debates with misnagdim. There are plenty of Yidden out there to reach out to without wasting time debating people who have no intention of being מקבל anything.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 4.0 #2434959
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Chabad Shlucha – Please, if you really do love and respect the Rebbe, his teachings, and his legacy (I also do, although I am not Lubavitch myself), PLEASE DO NOT START THESE THREADS. There are a small number (possibly only one) of seriously disturbed trolls, with an obsessive hate of Lubavitch, who hijack the conversation and turn it into a rage-room full of disgusting hate language and ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, that bears no resemblance to a real Torah debate. Look at what happened to ‘Hi I’m Back 3.0’, now with almost 900 comments, almost all of them pure garbage. (Where are the moderators?! Do they do anything at all? If someone would use the same language ‘qwerty613’ uses about the Lubavitcher Rebbe to describe a Litvish Gadol, would that also be OK with them? No deletions ever?) If you REALLY ARE CHABAD (?), so PLEASE DON’T FEED THE TROLLS.

    in reply to: Rabbi Lazer Brody and the IDF (Israeli Army) #2434958
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Keith – You are right that lashon hara is terrible, but that doesn’t make any other Torah prohibition not terrible. I don’t think that the גילוי עריות etc. that goes on in the IDF is helping to bring Moshiach either… Neither is the lashon hara and שנאת חינם coming out of the pro-army camp, for that matter.

    Everyone here should really stop and think for a moment – nothing anyone says here or in any real life ‘coffee room’ makes any difference in the situation in Israel, or anywhere else. So why the hyperbole? It’s enough just to say what you think and move on, if even that is needed…

    in reply to: Rabbi Lazer Brody and the IDF (Israeli Army) #2434957
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Just to be clear. I am not interested in continuing the endless debate about Zionism etc. ad nauseam. It is not OK to call Jews kofrim, idol worshippers, galachim, etc., because they have a mistake in שיטה, and often not even that. (There are plenty of other possibly worse forms of krumkeit right here in the coffee room, especially of the מאי אהני לן רבנן variety, which is actual אפיקורסות according to the Gemara. I don’t see the Kanoyim calling them out.)

    My only intention was to point out the complete fallacy of the opening post in this thread, which is in fact a man-bit-dog story. Aside which, it’s hard to give the IDF credit at all. Lazer Brody did not become Frum because his drill sergeant learned with him Likutey Moharan or taught him about Hisbodedus… Many people became בעלי תשובה after going through traumatic experiences or facing death, and that got them thinking about what the real תכלית of life is all about. Sometimes that can happen in the army. I have heard true stories like that about former soldiers in the American Army (which protects more Jews than the IDF…), the Russian Army (go volunteer there?), and also in the Israeli Army. Also about people who were in car crashes and jungle exploration mishaps, among other things. It isn’t some special סגולה of the IDF…

    in reply to: Rabbi Lazer Brody and the IDF (Israeli Army) #2434740
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    If you take the sum total of Jews who became Baalei Teshuvah due to their army experiences ALONE, and add the total number of Jews who became OTD due to ‘anti-Zionist’ rhetoric ALONE, then in my humble estimation you are still at least two orders of magnitude short of the number of Jews who went OTD in the IDF… There are also some former hostages who became בעלי תשובה while in captivity by Hamas, do you recommend doing that also?

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2434527
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    HaKatan said – they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).

    They aren’t DOING more shmad now… Those Israelis are the grandchildren of the ones the old Zionists tore away from Yiddishkeit BACK THEN. The larger numbers reflect population growth over 70 years. (As opposed to secular Jews in חוץ לארץ whose numbers shrink due to rampant assimilation…) That is a terrible מצב, but the way to fight it is not by screaming (at other Chareidim no less…) about ‘Zionism’, but by doing more Kiruv, or helping those who do so.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2434522
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – When speaking about how different communities are מחזק each other, I didn’t mean necessarily by direct contact and interaction, although that does happen to some extent. Simply knowing that some Jews out there, who also live in 5785 and deal with many of the same challenges you do, are better than you in field X, can often inspire one to invest at least a little more effort in that field than one otherwise would have been inclined. That idea actually was codified by the Rambam in Hilchos Deios, about the importance of where one lives and who one associates with, but the sources goes back to Tanach and Chazal in multiple places – הולך את חכמים יחכם and more. (Not דווקא one who is לומד מחכמים, even just הולך, to hang around with חכמים.)

    The point you made about Rav Soloveitchik is לכאורה correct.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ZSK:

    1. The ‘Bagatz’ is THE wedge preventing any cooperation in Israeli society in general, and plays incessant divide-and-conquer to achieve their own goals.

    2. My focus was on ‘conscientious’, as in ‘due to matters of conscience’. The fact that those ‘matters of conscience’ are of the type ‘that to the non-Charedi majority boils down to cultural preservation’ doesn’t change anything. The ‘non-Chareidi majority’ doesn’t decide matters of Halacha or Hashkafa for us.

    3A. You said – I don’t disagree with this and I’ve said so on more than one occasion on this forum. However, I do not consider such a good enough reason for Charedi and RZ men to not serve. – Well, גדולי ישראל do not agree with you. I don’t know what planet you live on if you think the Gerrer Rebbe wants to (or needs to…) bring down a government just to get his grandson out of the draft.

    3B. “the Charedi leadership should be making real attempts to work with the IDF to make service possible” – Something that cannot take place under ‘Bagatz’ progressive dictatorship. Both of us know that, and you have also said so yourself.

    4. Here you almost explicitly agree with what I said in 3B.

    5. That is probably what will eventually happen once the Bagatz is out of the way, and real change to the IDF becomes possible. It doesn’t look like that is happening anytime soon.

    6. I don’t have the time or the stomach to write in detail about politics. Suffice it to say that the usual דעת בעלי בתים deflections of blaming everything גדולי ישראל say that they don’t like on power politics won’t cut it here. It is clear that there is a broad and deep consensus here between a wide range of Rabbonim, Rebbes, and Roshei Yeshiva, which goes way beyond ‘politics’.

    7-8. That is true, but only because those were the majority of the ‘Chareidim’ filling the quotas until now… The anti-Chareidi camp is starting to understand that, and they want real Chareidi blood, not the fake variety.

    9. IMHO, the IDF isn’t so stupid, and they look the other way rather than drafting kids they don’t want. They play this same game לכתחילה with boys from strongly anti-Zionist communities and ‘Hilltop Youth’, among others. If they really wanted them, they wouldn’t ‘buy’ the psychiatrist stories.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2434188
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – Not because ‘Satmar will stop davening by us’ or because of ‘Chareidi reaction’. Simply by seeing that there are people who (usually/in general/in many areas/disclaimer of your choice) do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ. Not because they are afraid of anyone, but because they are also Jewish and they also want to be ehrlich and this silently reminds them that they can be better. Again, I am referring to those areas in which Chareidim do in fact do better than MO. No intention to start a debate on the relative merits of either group. The same can also be said of the symbiotic relationship of all different groups of observant Jews, (Sephardim, Litvish, Chassidish, the serious RZ, and all variations of the above), who each excel in some way, and inspire others to be better too.

    I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship. No one, not even Satmar etc., ever remotely suggested that entering a MO/RZ Shul (at least normal mainstream MO that conform to basic Halacha) is in any way comparable to a non-Orthodox בית הכסא.

    ZSK – I was also disgusted by the language used, and especially the timing, and I let him know that too. I’m starting to think that the real reason some people are so fixated on fighting ‘Zionism’ is that it ‘allows’ them to copy-paste harsh language from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue, and apply it to anyone they don’t like now, without feeling guilty – because such-and-such a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva ‘also said that’ (in a completely different era and context). Even back then, usually by the time these ‘statements’ attributed to Gedolim made it to street level or to biographies of questionable accuracy, much was added and embellished… The Chazon Ish and the Satmar Rov (for example) wrote many seforim. Someone who wants to see what they definitely did say can look there. But it’s more exciting to quote apocryphal (and ‘juicy’) stories…

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 3.0 #2433902
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    sechel83 – Please stop dignifying this crackpot by engaging him in debate. He has absolutely no interest in what you (or anyone who disagrees with his obsessive hate) has to say. You are just causing his venom glands to produce more poison. Ignore him and let this disgusting thread finally die out, if the moderators refuse to do their job and erase it.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2433484
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Calling any Jew a ‘galach’ ‘sheigitz’ etc. is disgusting, and accomplishes nothing to get your point across.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2433483
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    ZSK said – We’d can be sure we’d be better off if the entire Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim publicly admitted their past positions toward Zionism were a Hora’as sha’ah that are no longer relevant and instead joined the rest of the Orthodox Tzibbur, got jobs, helped the RZ community turn the IDF into something respectable and paid taxes like they are supposed to.

    Past issues with Zionism are not the reason for the present issues you mentioned. Most Chassidim do have jobs. There are different issues in Eretz Yisroel and Chutz Laaretz.

    We’d also be better off the RZ and MO communities stopped compromising on Orthodox values to please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors, coworkers, colleagues, etc.

    The main thing preventing them from doing so even more is that they see the example of the Chareidim. (Something Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik said in his day about American MO and Satmar…)

    And we’d be better off if the non-Orthodox communities just admitted they are essentailly bagel flavored progressivism and not attempt to speak for Judaism.

    They have no way of figuring that out on their own, because for the most part they know nothing about real Judaism. The solution is not to ‘accept’ their matzav, but to be מקרב them. The rest will die out within three generations from assimilation, like half of them already did.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2433478
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    somejew – The story about the Chazon Ish doesn’t say so. לועג על דברי חכמים, certainly the way the Chazon Ish understood it, is something many ostensibly Chareidi people do in various ways. Learn the Sugya in Sanhedrin. Zionism has many problems, but not necessarily לועג על דברי חכמים, although it may be a big risk factor.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    DuvidF – Shkoyach Reb Noach, so, if you like, erase point #5. That is the least relevant of the issues I raised, since I was in fact referring to ‘biological’ Kohanim and Leviim. I deliberately didn’t raise the issue of drafting תלמידי חכמים or צורבא מרבנן, to avoid endless debate on who qualifies for those terms. (That there is a prohibition on drafting תלמידי חכמים is quite clear, but not necessary or even relevant for our purposes.) The main problem with the IDF is גילוי עריות, along with a host of other issues, which are issues even for ‘Dati’ soldiers, of whom approximately 20% go OTD, (down from 50% decades ago…), but their leaders ‘religious’ devotion to the Medinah and the IDF overrides these concerns.

    ZSK said – Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.

    A ‘conscientious objector’ in the Western legal sense is usually someone opposed to the entire concept of war for religious or ideological reasons. Chareidi opposition to serving in the IDF is clearly based on religious and ideological reasons, whether you agree with them or not. If living the Chareidi lifestyle is so easy, and it’s worth it just to get out of the pesky draft (for laziness’s sake of course, no ideology to see here…), so why don’t the RZ and Chilonim join Chareidi Yeshivos and live the good life? אלא מאי, you know yourself that what you are saying is nonsense, and the whole Chareidi position isn’t ‘worth it’ from any point of view other than religious/ideological, except that you strongly disagree with their ideology, so TO YOUR MIND they are ‘draft dodgers’, even though if you want to be honest with yourself you have to admit that בגשמיות it would be much easier for them to just ‘go with the flow’ RZ style (as some weaker ones do, that actually is the exception that proves the rule.)

    AAQ said – Right, so according to shitato: every charedi needs to register with the draft first and then bring proofs of their exemption.

    That’s exactly what they do… You should familiarize yourself with the subject more if you really want to weigh in with an opinion. Why you would need to have an opinion altogether when you live in חוץ לארץ is a different שאלה, one that I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to…

    For everyone, pro-Medinah and anti:

    1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to והיה מחניך קדוש (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.

    2. Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards are impossible without total reform of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto controls Israel, as well as undoing the last 30 years of legislative and judicial precedents WRT ‘gender integration’. This might actually happen when Chareidim eventually become a majority of the population.

    3. Whatever course Chareidi Jewry takes will be charted by גדולי ישראל, who know better than me and you. Those who think they know better will anyway do what they want. (No need to roll out the rusty old tropes about the Holocaust and the Medinah and yadda yadda. You can do what you want without being מתרץ yourself to me or the lamppost.) Hashem will do what He wants. Far enough forward it will be clear in hindsight who was right. ואתם הדבקים בה׳ אלקיכם חיים כולכם היום

    in reply to: In honor of Tisha B'av. What you respect about… #2433477
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    I have new respect for you, Reb ‘ujm’, after seeing your comment. This is a thread that actually accomplishes something real.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 3.0 #2432943
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    sechel83 – As they say here חבל על הזמן. You aren’t going to convince Mr. Qwerty of anything. Just leave him alone to stew in his own juices and this idiotic thread will die out ממילא. What is the point of debating someone so obsessed with things that have no relevance to his own life? No one is asking him to be a Lubavitcher. If he wants to go through life thinking that Reuven is an Apikoros and Shimon is a Kofer (and he himself is a fine Ehrlicher Yid…), so let him live that way. Answering him back just triggers his venom glands and results in כל שכן דפקר טפי, so better to do אל תענה כסיל כאיולתו.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 3.0 #2432843
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    qwerty613 – I don’t hate you. In fact, I don’t know you, and you don’t know me… I left this thread because already a month ago I saw it wasn’t going anywhere. I was just surprised to see it running for so long, with so many comments.

    To quote you:

    So let me share the salient points.

    1. Don’t give Mussar to people who won’t listen to you, and I don’t have any interest in what a nasty jerk like you has to say.

    (The people you disagree with probably don’t have any interest in what a pleasant and friendly fellow like you has to say.)

    2. Second don’t give Mussar unless you like the person you’re trying to reach. I’m sure you hate my guts as much as I hate you.

    (You just admitted that you aren’t qualified to give Mussar. So don’t do it. How do you hate someone you don’t even know?)

    3. Don’t give Mussar unless you’ve made changes in yourself. Clearly you’re way too arrogant to ever work on yourself.

    (You feel free to criticize others, including the Lubavitcher Rebbe, because you are so… humble? I guess you must have made really big changes in yourself before you got to be so great.)

    If you want more of this keep writing. I’ve got plenty more in my arsenal.

    (I don’t care. I actually invited you to do so. Better you should use me as a punching bag than ח״ו to do so with the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל. If you would get professional help, it would be better and more effective. Why should it make any difference in my life what a nameless and faceless (and apparently mentally ill) troll rants and raves?)

    Are you like this in real life, or is this just your ‘rage room’? Seriously, copy and paste all 875 comments to an email, send it anonymously to the mental health professional of your choice, without identifying which participant you are, and ask him if ‘qwerty613’ is in need of therapy or other intervention.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 3.0 #2432733
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Qwerty, if you need a punching bag, so rage-post me (like you did for a few days 700 comments ago…), not the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am definitely less of an Ehrlicher Yid than he was… But better for everyone to just shut up and move on with something more meaningful and productive, especially ערב תשעה באב.

    in reply to: Hi I’m back 3.0 #2432719
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    All you guys are finished being מתקן yourselves? Looked at a Jewish calendar lately? Nothing better to do? 870 posts accomplishing what exactly?

    1. No one here will succeed in convincing anyone of anything, no matter what. This thread has long since disintegrated into a rage-room, nothing more.

    2. The guy from the קמצא/בר קמצא story was probably just as sure as you all are that he was right… He wasn’t…

    3. I’m assuming everyone here is mentally healthy (more or less) and Orthodox Jewish (more or less).

    4. So what are you all trying to accomplish?

    in reply to: Is none2.0 Orthodox? #2432671
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Clap clap clap. An ad-hominem attack thread Erev Tisha B’Av. Moderators please delete this garbage as a z’chus for Klal Yisroel.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    It’s a general rule in Shas, that whenever a special פסוק or דרשה is necessary, it is to teach an EXCEPTION, not the normative rule.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    DuvidF – The Sifri you quote proves the opposite – ONLY in מלחמת מדין did שבט לוי participate, NEVER in any other war, and we need a special פסוק to teach us that THAT ONE TIME שבט לוי was also included. The אחרונים discuss why, mainly because מלחמת מדין was a רוחניות battle to avenge the מעשה פעור, similar to the story of Chanukah, which is the only other historical military campaign of כלל ישראל where שבט לוי participated and led.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2432405
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    somejewiknow – The quote you bring from a biography of the Chazon Ish (not ספר חזון איש or any authoritative Halachic work of his תלמידים…) is not talking about Zionism per-se, rather לועג על דברי חכמים, something many ostensibly ‘Chareidi’ people (including on this website) permit themselves to indulge in… The source for that is the Gemara in מסכת סנהדרין, not a special חידוש of the Chazon Ish. If you want to be more Lomdish, that actually proves AGAINST your argument – If the only reason the Mizrachi Rabbi is פסול is because he is לועג על דברי חכמים, then simply being Mizrachi isn’t enough… The story about the ‘Kiddush’ sounds garbled and missing pieces (and also לכאורה contradicts the previous quotes.) What is meant by “this is the first I’ve heard”? There was plenty of interaction between the Chazon Ish and members of Mizrachi before then. Also, bear in mind that at the time the Secular Zionists were proactively tearing children away from Yiddishkeit, importing treif meat and selling it with the Hechsher of the Rabbanut, and attempting to forcibly conscript Chareidi/Dati GIRLS (=גילוי עריות for those who can’t put two and two together), all with the tacit and-or explicit complicity of the old Mizrachi זכרונם לבראך. Many of the secularists themselves at the time were from Frum homes who were שנה ופירש קשה מכולם, with an agenda to eliminate Yiddishkeit, similar to the Soviet Yevsektzia. (Some of the Mizrachi were not much better, despite pretending to be Frum… That may explain the Kiddush story, and why it seems to be ‘censored’…) Nowadays the situation is quite different, and most of what is going on is from ignorance, not malice.

    in reply to: ארץ ישראל and the state #2431621
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    The ‘quote’ (mis)attributed here to the Chazon Ish regarding yain nesech doesn’t make sense at all לשיטתו, and IMHO could not have been said by him. (Or else something is missing from the statement or the context.) The burden of proof is on whoever makes such a sensational claim to provide verifiable sources.

    Seriously folks, on both sides of the never ending fight, let’s try to understand:

    1. SECULAR ZIONISM IS LONG SINCE DEAD AND BURIED.

    Secular Zionism is the belief that by establishing a state the Jews would be accepted into the ‘family of nations’ as equals, ending antisemitism. In other words: ככל הגוים בית ישראל. That is straight אפיקורסות. That was the real goal, and settling the Land was simply the means to the goal, but a state in Uganda would also have been fine for them. That is what the גדולים were fighting against, and all quotations on this subject pertain to an era when that belief was current. At the time, there were unfortunately ‘religious’ Jews who bought into that ideal. (Not the Uganda stuff, but the idea of ‘auto-emancipation’.) Nowadays no sane person can seriously believe any of this, because it is so painfully obvious that Zionism did nothing to ameliorate antisemitism, and the Jewish people will never be accepted by the Goyim, with or without a state. (Not a surprise for us…)

    2. THE RESHAIM CURRENTLY FIGHTING כל דבר שבקדושה IN ארץ ישראל ARE NOT ZIONISTS.

    The Secular Left in Israel today mostly subscribe to what has been referred to as ‘Post-Zionism’, meaning they believe that the whole concept of a Jewish State is wrong and unethical, and they seek to establish a ‘State of all it’s citizens’. Vis-a-vis the ‘Palestinian’ issue, this is sometimes referred to as the ‘One State Solution’. This comes from the postmodern/progressive opposition to nationalism in general. They are viciously anti-religious and pro תועבה, as well as all the other garbage Progressives hold dear. Some of the more extreme ones actively help enemies of the State of Israel, as has been reported on this site in several articles.

    3. NOT ALL OF TODAY’S ‘RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS’ EVEN BELIEVE IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו ETC.

    The term ‘Religious Zionist’ as used today encompasses a broad range of groups, from people who are barely שומר מצוות altogether, to those who are completely Chareidi in their lifestyle and standards of Yiddishkeit, but they also believe in building settlements on the hills of the Shomron to hasten the גאולה. Many of the latter groups do not even hold of the State, or even serve in the Army. In fact, it is well known that boys who show up to the לשכת הגיוס wearing a certain ‘look’ associated with certain ‘Religious Zionist’ groups are usually rejected automatically…

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ said – Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.

    So come here and join. We’re waiting for you… If you really believe what you say, then why is living in America a bigger היתר to ‘shirk responsibility’ than concern about real Halacha and Hashkafa issues is? If this is a כלל ישראל issue, so why are you (and all the other big talkers in America) less obligated than the boys who happen to live here?

    LOL. The IDF isn’t Moshe Rabbeinu’s army. Not by a long shot.

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Yechiell said – Why does this forum allow anti-Zionists to spew forth their vile hatred?

    Are you new to this site? What did you think would happen when you threw out a potentially provocative question? (Which happens to be incorrect, regardless of your position on Zionism itself.)

    I have a better question. Why does this forum allow some commenters to “spew forth” anti-Yeshivish attitudes and content while calling itself “Yeshivah World News”? I am not a fan of ‘ujm’ or ‘somejew’ type screeds, but at least this isn’t “Zionist World News”, so their comments don’t directly contradict the stated purpose of the site. Some of the anti-Chareidi comments I have seen here would be offensive to many ‘Traditional’ non-Chareidi Israelis…

    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    Maybe there were some differences between the army of Yehoshua bin Nun and, להבדיל אלף אלפי הבדלות, the IDF?

    1. No girls.

    2. No chilonim.

    3. No singles. (The draft age was 20, being single after 20 subjects one to condition number 4…)

    4. No עברה of any kind, דאורייתא, or דרבנן, or עובר על דברי חכמים, up to and including interrupting between תפילין של יד and של ראש…

    5. No Kohanim and Leviim.

    6. Probably no one currently in the IDF, or in the Yeshivos for that matter, would make the grade.

    ואם תמצא לומר, so how do we make an army now? Well, that’s a very good question. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of a “Jewish Army” as described in Tanach and הלכות מלחמה of the Rambam. Nothing. Zero.

    in reply to: Planned obsoletion #2426354
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    All you need to do (and all you really can do) is compare existing brands/items and choose whatever can reasonably be expected to give you the best ROI. Try using resources like Consumers’ Reports and other independent reviewers, or for big items talk to repair workers and ask them what really lasts and what doesn’t.

    in reply to: Slavery Reparations #2425430
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – Theoretically there may be such a thing. Practically there are many complications:

    1. Who is eligible? Since the whole point of ‘reparations’ is to play with ‘white guilt’, what about whites who have black ancestors? (There are many. Some of the enslaved ‘blacks’ were 3/4 or more white, including famously Thomas Jefferson’s ‘pilegesh’ who was the mother of six white skinned children.) Do they fit the ‘narrative’?

    2. What about people descended from both slaves and slave owners? (e.g. Kamala Harris…)

    3. What about American Blacks whose ancestors were enslaved elsewhere (Caribbean immigrants = most of Crown Heights, Bed Sty, and adjacent neighborhoods)?

    4. Speaking of the Caribbean, what about whole countries populated by the descendants of slaves, slave-owners, and indigenous peoples who were misched together over the centuries? Who gives and who gets? Slavery in the Caribbean was much more widespread and brutal than in the United States.

    5. Why do you assume West Africa deserves compensation? The local Black yokels were the ones who sold the slaves to begin with… One tribe of vilde chayes would raid the tribe down the road and sell their prisoners to the slave traders, and next season the other tribe would win.

    6. What about the East African slave trade, which was a much bigger operation than the Atlantic trade, and very brutal (work on plantations in India and Indonesia, hard labor in the Middle East, etc.), and was conducted exclusively by Arabs… The Arab and Muslim slave traders also engaged in what is today referred to as ‘human trafficking’ of whites… But all this is whitewashed because it doesn’t fit the Liberal race narrative.

    7. Reparations ultimately become a ‘Chad Gadya’ type of thing. Suppose we sue Italy for property damage and looting done during Churban Bayis Sheini… They would then sue the Huns and Visigoths (Germany and Norway)? And then what?

    The truth is, when Moshiach will come there will be major reparations to be paid with 2000 years of interest… תחת הנחושת אביא זהב ותחת הברזל כסף ותחת העץ נחושת ותחת האבנים ברזל, and there will be those who won’t be able to pay their way תחת רבי עקיבא וחבריו מה תביאו. But לכאורה no human court is capable of figuring this stuff out until then. במהרה בימינו אמן.

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