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anon1m0us said – It reminds me of ancient Jews who instead of following halacha, started following the cool medrashim. They ended up on a cross.
Don’t know who or what you are talking about. The Three Oaths are a Gemara towards the end of Kesubos, not a Midrash. (They are also mentioned in the Midrash Shir Hashirim, but that is not the SOURCE of this subject.) There are quite a few Rishonim and Achronim who considered them to be binding. Hilchos Lashon Hara, among others, are not discussed in most of the major Halacha seforim of the Rishonim, except very briefly in the Rambam and Rabbeinu Yonah. Other than a few lines in Masches Arachin, and scattered מאמרי חז״ל elsewhere, most of the references to all forms of Issurei Dibbur are – Aggadita. Yet we know that Lashon Hara is is a very big deal because – it says so in the Aggadita… So the Chofetz Chaim went and collected all of the scattered Halachic references and made them into a systematic Sefer called Chofetz Chaim, and the Aggadita he called Shmiras Halashon. No one even tried to claim that he made up something יש מאין just because there was no such thing as a Sefer or even a Perek within a Sefer on הלכות לשון הרע until he came along. Aside from the Divrei Yoel, many other Poskim held the Oaths to be very serious and very real, including Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Brisker and his son Rav Velvel, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, Rav Eliyahu Henkin, and many more. Some of the early RZ Rabbonim discussed the issue in their works and tried to build a case to permit Zionism anyway, including Rav Kalisher and Rav Reines, but they didn’t write it off as “faulty understanding of the Torah”, something you consider yourself more qualified to judge than any of the above Rabbonim.
AAQ and ZSK – Davka the Rabbonim who signed against Goren, especially Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Elyashiv, were known to respect and have a close relationship with several prominent RZ Rabbonim. They opposed Goren because of actual things he did. There were also those within the RZ orbit who saw Goren as a ‘loose cannon’ who damaged their cause.
AAQ – If those Rabbonim would relate to ALL RZ Rabbonim as they did to Goren, then Occam’s Razor might be relevant. The reality doesn’t bear that out. On the other hand, the Razor would apply neatly to one person issuing two completely contradictory ‘psakim’, where the only צד השווה is his desire to pander to the Zionist powers that be, something he never bothered to hide or was even ashamed of.
ujm
Yes, there is a process of בירור. Yes, it says וברותי מכם המורדים והפושעים. Yes, the Erev Rav will disappear. But that could very well take place through the demographic and sociological בירור process without killing anyone.
Re. ujm and the demographics of Ma’aminim.
Based on all demographic studies, including those done by non-Jews (Pew institute) or secular Jews (including the Israeli government), the percentage of Shomrei Shabbos is approximately a quarter of the best estimate of the number of Halachic Jews by birth, and that percentage is expected to get much higher within a few decades due to the huge differential in birthrate and ‘retention rate’ (i.e., not intermarrying). The Chareidi slice of the pie is the fastest growing and the most retaining… (The average birthrate of Chareidim is double that of MO/RZ and more than triple that of Secular.) There are actually MORE Orthodox Jews now than ANY OTHER “DENOMINATION” except for “unaffiliated” who are anyway going lost because the few children they have usually aren’t Jewish… “Open Orthodoxy” is too small to even be counted as a distinct group. (They probably are counted as MO.) This is aside from the fact that in Israel a large portion of the not-fully-observant (and a majority of the Sephardim who are half of the Jewish population) self describe as believing in Hashem and the Torah and certainly wouldn’t be caught dead in a Reform/Conservative anything. (And they have more kids than the hard-core Chilonim… And they are far more likely to become BT…)
So don’t be so down. The Ribbono Shel Olam is moving things towards the true Geulah, may it be ברחמים גדולים and like we say on Shabbos Nachamu, (UNLIKE the 20% who made it to יציאת מצרים) may it be איש לא נעדר.
By the way, the Navi Yeshayah clearly says והביאו את כל אחיכם בית ישראל מכל הגוים וכו׳ which Rashi says refers to Jews who don’t even know they are Jewish altogether, and Moshiach will gather them too, so don’t be so quick to write off Neshamos (who לכל הפחות know they are Jewish) as a lost cause חס ושלום.
AAQ, RightJew, and friends –
There is an excellent book called “The Empty Wagon – Zionism’s journey from identity crisis to identity theft.” If you have the patience to go through 1390 pages and close to 3000 footnotes, with hundreds of citations from the writings of Zionist thinkers and leaders, you will get a much clearer picture of what secular Zionism was about then, what parts of it still exist today, how and why the RZ and Chareidim dealt with it the way they did, what the Zionists did and didn’t try to do, and to what extent they succeeded in their goals, among many other things that you are often confused about. It is very probable that you will interpret the facts differently than the author does, but you will at least know WHAT THE ZIONISTS SAID ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN GOALS IN THEIR OWN WORDS. All of the quotations include the name of the publication and the page number, if you want to fact check or context check. Reading this would probably change your perspective, if not your opinions themselves. I don’t have time to copy hundreds of pages and then debate the משמעות of each quote and each sugyah. If you are serious you can do the research.
ujm said – All can be the same non-believing kofer.
“Kofer” means “denier”. You have to know something in order to deny it. Most of the Maskilim and Zionists in the 5600s (1840-1939) fitted that definition. Most of the non-Frum today are nowhere close.
Yankel Berel – I’m aware of that שיטה. That being said, if we take the most basic definition of גוף נקי, then applying it to healthy people for two minutes isn’t too hard. Especially if the other side of the equation is leaving the person as a קרקפתא דלא מנח תפילין according to all שיטות.
ZSK said – Re your other two posts: Seriously? Are we really going to heresy accusations?
Yes indeed. Not accusing the גברא as a whole ad hominem, but calling out a seriously off-base statement that is in fact kefirah.
Both of us say twice every day in Krias Shma, as well as in numerous other places in Davening, as well as throughout Chumash, Navi, and Chazal, that Jewish Galus and suffering including Jews being killed (ואבדתם מהרה means being killed, not just Galus, according to the Yerushalmi in Brachos) is BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, not because we didn’t have an army (which we did have at the time of the Churban). Not believing that is real Kefirah. I’m sure you learned Sefer Melachim, and probably also Yirmiyahu and even Divrei Hayamim. Where does it say in any of those sources that the Churban Bayis Rishon was because Tzidkiyahu’s army was inadequate? You do believe שכל דברי נביאים אמת, do you not? Where is there ANY Torah source of any kind that faults the Jewish people or blames their suffering on their failure to have an army? There isn’t any. The (large subgroup but not all) RZ who speak that way are just copy-pasting Goyish kefirah ideas into a pseudo-Jewish context to ape the secular Zionists they hold dear. Nothing else.
ZSK – WRT Rabbi Goren’s contradictory ‘psakim’. Occam’s Razor makes more sense than hiding behind “I would need to read the entire transcript” with no intention to actually do so. Something that the Rabbonim who opposed him already did, I did (the Langer case), and you also could easily do if you wanted.
An Israeli Yid
As another Eretz Yisroel Yid, I am well aware of the demographics and society of Israel, and that Zionism today isn’t what it used to be. Something I have stated here many times. However, the סעיף in Hilchos Shabbos is NOT about WHO has an obligation to “defend ones fellow Jews” (at any rate something the IDF sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t, depending on political considerations), nor about whether such an obligation, if it exists nowadays altogether, outweighs Gilui Arayos and GRATUITOUS Chilul Shabbos, among other issues.
ujm said – Unfortunately 98% of Jews don’t believe in the Torah.
What in the world are you talking about?! There are approximately 15-16 million Jews worldwide. Of which 3-4 million are Shomer Shabbos. Of the Shomer Shabbos approximately two thirds are Chareidim. Two percent of 15 million is 300,000. There are more Satmar Chassidim plus Eidah Chareidis etc. Yidden than that!
ujm – NAME one such Posek.
An Israeli Yid said – What I have yet to see from them, though, is an explanation as to WHY, exactly, this particular Se’if in the Shulchan Aruch does not apply to the present situation.
No mention is made in the סעיף in question of the necessity or even permissibility of forming a standing army בזמן הזה. The subject matter is הלכות שבת ONLY. If there is a real tactical need to go after hostile invaders on Shabbos, so it is מותר for the ad hoc vigilante committee to go get the pitchforks or the spears or the M-16s and chase after them. No one argues with that. Serving in the IDF involves multiple serious issues that the secular authorities have repeatedly refused to address, despite promising to do so, so the Gedolim called cut. They don’t need to explain it to you. Those who listen to them understand the core issues already, and they have privately explained many things off the record.
On more than one occasion I have seen caricatures of Chareidim in Chiloni publications that look exactly like Der Sturmer with Hebrew captions. In Germany it took only six and a half years of propaganda to turn the world’s most sophisticated and cultured society into mass murderers. In Israel this level of propaganda has been going on for 77 years and we can still walk around as Chareidim without being killed. פוק חזי מה בין פושעי ישראל לנביאי אומות העולם
If you believe in Chazal that גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו, then which is worse, physically killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them to Gan Eden as קדושים, or spiritually killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them elsewhere? (Plus literally killing over 2,000,000 Jewish babies.)
AAQ said – My theory is that this is a history-driven sociological trap: leadership established separate communities (Rambam’s deserts in the words of Chazon Ish), had to use separatist ideology to protect them (and this worked well both in Israel and US), and now these ideologies took over the crowds beyond the temporary measures they were, and leadership is unable to change them, in part because the protection is based on “we are right, and they are always evil”, but also because they can’t go against the load crowds. Emes is the biggest loss of this complex process.
עד כאן דבריו.You are rambling off too much nonsense to break down one by one. Let’s focus on the core issue. Secular Zionism was a highly organized and targeted campaign to destroy Judaism and replace it with a secular national identity. Period. Everything else, including the IDF, was a היכא תמצא to accomplish that. In other words, the State in general, and the IDF in particular, are one big social engineering project to create a new Jewish identity. This was never a secret. Not participating in that project is not some special “separatist ideology” or social phenomenon, it’s basic Judaism 101. That was even before ‘gender integration’ became ubiquitous in all parts of the IDF. Why in the world do you think the Rabbonim should “go against the crowds” and send the boys to Kefirah and Gilui Arayos galore in the name of – “Emes”?! (Did you mean to say ’emesis’?) What will be with the IDF and who will fight the Arabs is a red herring. The Chilonim don’t have a long term solution to Israel’s problems any more than the Chareidim do. Our job is to keep the Torah and Mitzvos. Sorry to disappoint you, but that does not include having an army during Galus. If truly Torah observant Jews end up becoming a majority in Israel, there will be many issues to deal with. When we get there, Gedolei Yisroel will deal with it. They aren’t afraid of “the crowds”. They are afraid of איסורי כרת וסקילה and more, which will have to be cleaned out of the IDF altogether. For now, it’s just regular Galus survival as usual under Jewish Paritzim.
RightJew said – The halacha cited above clearly refers to non-Jews who besiege a Jewish city, in which case halacha requires military self-defense against those non-Jews, even on Shabbat.
The Halacha in question is in Hilchos Shabbos. It PERMITS defensive combat on Shabbos on an ad-hoc basis under certain conditions. It says NOTHING about the necessity or even permissibility of establishing an organized army בזמן הזה. This is more relevant to Shomrim than to the IDF.
ZSK, with regard to Rabbi Goren. How do you reconcile his more famous ‘psak’ on the Langer mamzerim, with his less famous ‘psak’ to accept the ‘conversion’ of the children of Mary Ben Gurion (the shiksa daughter-in-law of… Google it.) The two phony ‘psakim’ are diametrically תרתי דסתרי. He was מתיר the mamzerim by retroactively rejecting the conversion of their father because – he wasn’t Mitzvah observant and ‘probably’ never had any intention to be. He was also מתיר Ben Gurion’s shratzim einiklach – who also weren’t Mitzvah observant and ‘definitely’ had no intention to be… You don’t have to be Satmar to see the problem here…
AAQ asked – Is the concern that the person does not care what he is doing or whether he is Jewish?
Well, the shliach would typically ask “Are you Jewish?”. If it’s a kid, he might ask if he’s 13. (I guess if the character in question isn’t “binary” the shliach might have to ask ‘them’ for ‘their’ ‘pronouns’…) You are right that unfortunately some people think they are Jewish but they really aren’t. Sometimes people like that say they are “half Jewish”, to which the shliach would ask “which half?”.
Once we have determined within reason that the guy approaching the shliach is in fact a guy, not a Goy, and has reached the age of ג״י, then we are left with the issue of מצוות צריכות כוונה, and what degree of כוונה that means. When it comes to a מצוה דאורייתא that doesn’t involve doing something a person would do anyway (possibly as opposed to something done completely as a מתעסק such as eating matzah or even Korban Pesach just because he’s hungry), then בפשטות simply doing the act is ‘caring’ enough, unless one has deliberate negative כוונה NOT to do the מצוה, which in this context makes no sense because if that were so he would probably just walk away.
ujm said – Comparing it to someone who refuses to put on Tefillin even when approached, doesn’t make it a Mitzvah for someone who doesn’t refuse. Nor does it necessarily demonstrate that he believes on some level.
I don’t understand your reasoning. I didn’t compare the two. The fact that many refuse to put on Tefillin proves that they don’t feel a need to ‘humor’ a stranger (who they may also see as strange). That would tend to indicate (even though it isn’t perfect proof it is a רגליים לדבר) that those who DO put on Tefillin are not simply ‘humoring’ the Chabadnik. Especially if he then proceeds to say קבלת עול מלכות שמים, which especially if he knows לשון הקודש is literally accepting Emunah in Hashem.
ujm further said – Given you acknowledge the view I’m sharing is a valid shitta by various Poskim, is your hypothetical rhetorical questions being made to them?
If you mean the Hatzolah question, then yes. Absolutely. My question is not hypothetical or rhetorical at all. Here in Eretz Yisroel it is מעשים בכל יום on the literal and practical level, both during the week and on Shabbos. I challenge you to find me ANY living Posek ANYWHERE, including Satmar, Hisachdus, Eidah, Neturei Karta, whatever, who will give you a היתר to stand there and watch a (regular contemporary non-Frum) Yid die רחמנא ליצלן because he is a “Kofer”. In a real למעשה scenario. Even if you would have to be מחלל שבת. Please try to prove me wrong if you can.
ujm – Let’s say it’s a מחלוקת הפוסקים, especially since it IS… So what? So he did a מצוה not לכל הדיעות. You hold that’s no good, fine, don’t do it yourself. Or, come up with a better way to reach Yidden. Someone has to start somewhere. Sitting and criticizing won’t bring back Hashem’s children.
AAQ said – Still, focusing on such a psak focuses on (misses?) the big picture of what Chabad shluchim achieve. I am not suggesting mitzva b’yadei avera, but just fair appreciation. Especially when criticism comes from people who did not bother to do anything themselves…
I think we agree, I was just pointing out the technical reason why this PARTICULAR mitzvah campaign generated the most controversy.
Brilliant RightJew. Big chiddush.
News flash. Gedolei Yisroel also know how to read Shulchan Aruch. They also know some more things about the Torah and, lehavdil, about what goes on in the IDF.
The NYPD and US Army also protect many Jews. It seems your interest in the IDF is not purely from a practical standpoint.
AAQ said – Maseches Taanis describes a doctor who was visited by yeshiva shel maaleh more often than Abaye and Rava (despite his bloodletting methods were not the most effective ones – surely a fact known b’shmayim!). I would presume many would like to follow in his steps.
Nice. The Gemara there (24b) asks what was so special about Abba Umna, and one of the things listed is him going to great lengths to avoid any unnecessary exposure of female patients. So to your mind “following in his steps” would mean joining the IDF, because there they are very careful about tzniyus… Or becoming a modern doctor, most of whom are very machmir in tzniyus… He wasn’t a Tzaddik BECAUSE he was a doctor. DESPITE being a doctor, which exposes one to certain additional nisyonos, he STILL managed to be a Tzaddik. Like they say here יחי ההבדל הקטן…
ZSK said – For 2,000 years, Jewish children were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army.
That statement is kefirah. Leaving aside discussions of hishtadlus with regard to individuals, the Jewish nation as a whole is subject only to Divine Hashgacha and nothing else. At the time of the Churban, and afterwards at the time of the Bar Koziva revolt, they had an army, but it didn’t help because Hashem didn’t want it to. Whether making an army is permitted altogether in Galus (which we still are in) is directly connected to the sugya of the Three Oaths, which you acknowledged is at least “a legitimate Halachic discussion”. By the way, the Russians had a very strong army (Cossacks you said?), and they lost 22,000,000(!) people in WWII, more than the entire Jewish people worldwide.
ZSK said – To imply that there is no difference between a Jew dying as a helpless victim of a Cossack and a Jew dying as a soldier defending EY is an insult to the Kedoshim.
What difference is there that makes a difference Jewishly? Because the soldier died with ‘honor’? Sorry to burst your bubble, but that doesn’t come from Judaism. What about the ‘helpless victims’ of the עשרה הרוגי מלכות or all the real קדושים of the generations? The ones the word ‘Kedoshim’ was meant to describe? And what about a non-Jewish soldier who dies for his country? Is he a ‘Kadosh’ according to your religion?
I think anyone honest would have to admit that saying that the IEC is primarily concerned with producing electricity for Pikuach Nefesh is not a strong sevara… Aside from the fact that all real Pikuach Nefesh places (hospitals etc.) have backup electric systems… What do you think they do when there’s a blackout?
WRT electricity, police, etc. on Shabbos in Israel.
If the State truly cared about Shabbos, many things could be done by non-Jews. There are PLENTY (some would say too many) of non-Jewish police officers in Israel. Same for the electric company. Many utilities have long since been automated to a great extent, as has been pointed out. A little creative ingenuity (that Israel so prides itself on) and a few non-Jewish Shabbos supervisors, and they could be good to go Halachically IF THEY CARED ENOUGH. There is a tendency among RZ Rabbis to immediately invoke the ‘But how will the Heiliger State manage if we keep Shabbos/Shemittah/Tzniyus/etc. without any shtick?’ clause. Actually, the biggest Shabbos challenges are factories that use extreme high-temperature furnaces (Phoenicia Glass and the Haifa oil refinery being the most infamous) that take much time to warm up and to cool down (and therefore almost never shut down). There are actually Halachically and technically viable suggestions that have been made how to deal with those issues, based on technology that has been used in other places, but the management isn’t interested.
AAQ said – For example, in a crash, it may benefit the owner of the vehicle v. other drivers, or even select to crash into a person with better insurance coverage or less years left to live.
Is that for real, or is it just ‘trolley dilemma’ philosophizing? How would an algorithm, or even a human driver, be able to know in real time the age/health/insurance of the drivers in the opposite lane and ‘choose’ who to crash?
ujm said: Not everyone subscribes to that Chabad belief.
It is most definitely not exclusively a “Chabad belief”. At any rate, they hold that way, and they don’t care what anyone else holds. You don’t have to do it.
ujm said: I dare say that is a minority opinion.
Even אם תמצי לומר that it is so, something by no means certain, so they are being מזכה Yidden to do Mitzvos according to a ‘minority opinion’, as opposed to not doing them at all.
ujm said: And people often want to be polite or friendly. So if someone smilingly offers you something you might accept it to humor him or engage with him in a friendly way, but no more.
Why is that worse than a three year old doing a Mitzvah to get a lollypop? Jewishly speaking, these are mostly ‘big three year olds’ as opposed to real ‘kofrim’. As it happens, there are unfortunately some (Jewish) people who refuse to put on Tefillin even when approached. So there definitely is such an option. If someone really doesn’t believe (or so claims), why should he feel obliged to humor a perfect stranger, who he might even view with hostility? Therefore, if someone does choose to put on Tefillin, it shows he DOES believe on some level. That might even count as a הרהור תשובה to make him a Kosher Jew for those five minutes even לשיטתך, by the way. (Which is one of the סניפים used by Poskim who permit and even encourage such activity.) It’s the Satan’s job to be מקטרג and always look for flaws and ulterior motives in people’s Mitzvos, you don’t need to help him…
Let me ask you a question. If you were a Hatzalah volunteer, and a non-Frum Jew was having a heart attack ר״ל, would you really and truly be מורידין ולא מעלין, or would you (at LEAST) say ספק פיקוח נפש להחמיר when you have BOTH a פלוגתא דרבוותא and a ספק במציאות?
AAQ said: You don’t have to focus just on that one event. It is not as if Chabad just doing that. It is part of their trying to find and touch non-observant Jews.
Correct, but the discussion (which is in fact a discussion in contemporary Poskim) started with Tefillin because theoretically there is a ‘down side’ of ‘defiling’ the Kedusha of the Tefillin. Getting people to do Lulav and Esrog or hear Megillah etc. is a complete no-brainer that it is muttar. As soon as we have determined that the person putting on Tefillin is in fact a בר חיובא and has at least minimal intention to do a Mitzvah, it isn’t considered ‘defiling’ the Tefillin. That is the same Heter we have to put on Tefillin… The Lubavitcher Rebbe pointed out that someone putting on Tefillin for the first time in his life, for just a few minutes, is actually much LESS likely to ‘space out’ and be מסיח דעת than we are…
Some Jew – WRT Chabad Tefillin stands, if someone really and truly doesn’t believe in anything ר״ל, so why is he putting on Tefillin? (Unless it’s a politician doing a photo-op, which it isn’t 99% of the time.) And usually, especially if he is an Israeli who already knows how to read אלף בית, saying שמע ישראל ה׳ אלקינו ה׳ אחד? (Which is explicitly negating any מחשבה of ‘not believing’, and if he makes it to והיה אם שמוע negates any מחשבה of not being מצווה.) The Shittah of Chabad (and many others) is that there is not and cannot be a Jewish Neshomah who doesn’t have ANY Emunah in Hakadosh Baruch Hu because a Yid is a חלק אלוק ממעל whether he likes it or not. מתעסק is someone who eats Matzah thinking it’s a cracker or some similar scenario. If any male over 13 born to a Jewish mother puts on Tefillin while aware that they are Tefillin, he has done a Mitzvah unless בשעת מעשה he has כוונה הפכית to deliberately NOT be Yotzeh, which לכאורה is never the case. Yes, there are those who hold differently. לשיטתם there would then never be any מושג of קירוב unless the guy in the street is מקבל all 613 Mitzvos before he walks in the door… There are those who actually seem to hold so. Chabad and many others hold differently.
mdd1 – The original nusach of the infamous “cherem” (that some here suggest still is in force, if it ever was legit to begin with…) prohibited “intermarriage” with the ״מוחרמים״, among other extremes. That’s called פסולי קהל. Look before you shoot. For some reason the many Maskilim who operated within the Volozhin Yeshiva several decades later were never treated so harshly… But Klal Yisroel has moved past this stuff. On both sides. So why dig it up? Like I wrote to Yankel Berel, we all have at least 613 things we can agree on…
SQUARE_ROOT – It isn’t a Chiddush to anyone that Agudath Israel is mildly pro-Israel. Therefore what exactly? Some agree, some are more pro than them, and some are anti. None of the other groups really care what Agudah holds.
ujm said – “YYA: If you observed anyone referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Fourth Reich of Ireland, would you get as bent out of shape as you do when you hear the State of Israel being referred to as such? If not, it appears you give the Zionist State some sort of messianic categorization.”
Well, FWIW, Ireland isn’t so far from going there… But seriously, there is a range of other options between “Messianic Redemption” and “Nazis”, don’t you think?
Ask yourself: If YOU thought Israel was no different than Ireland, then why do YOU get bent out of shape when the Israeli “leaders” do things (that they obviously shouldn’t be doing) against Yiddishkeit? Why do you expect them to be better than Goyim? אלא מאי, even you understand that Israel, despite being very deeply flawed and in need of תיקון, is “something more than Ireland”, not אתחלתא דגאולה, just “something more than Ireland”. Maybe even something more than Monsey…
ujm – So why are you so “worried” about us? Why do we need you and your Iranian and NK friends to come up with ideas how to “help” us? Just let the Ribbono Shel Olam take care of it, and stop trying to give Him ideas how to “save” us…
SQUARE_ROOT said:
“Is Chabad Kiruv a Failure?
When we consider the high % of Jews who intermarry with non-Jews,
and also consider the low % of Secular Jews who become Baalei Teshuvah,
we cannot ignore the possibility that Chabad kiruv a failure,
and might not be worth the great time and money Chabad has spent on it.Viewed from this perspective,
we cannot ignore the possibility that ALL kiruv a failure!”So, exactly how much time and money is a Jewish Neshama, a בן אברהם יצחק ויעקב, a חלק אלוק ממעל, a בנים אחים ורעים, an אחותי רעייתי תמתי, worth in your humble estimation? What Z’chus exactly is worth more than saving ONE Jew, let alone his/her future descendants, ALL of whom, together with ALL of their Mitzvos UNTIL THE END OF TIME will be “credited” to the eternal “bank account” of whoever was Mekarev them?
Aside from the fact that Kiruv, especially in Eretz Yisroel, is more “successful” than you think, but this isn’t a numbers game. And who could ignore the revolution going on for decades in the former Soviet Bloc nations (led to a large extent by, well you know which group…) where tens of thousands of Jews have returned to their roots and built families of Shomrei Mitzvos? Is this not “worth it”? תמיה תמיה אקרא!
What is more חשוב in Hashem’s View כביכול than bringing back His lost children?
Yankel Berel – I’m not sure the Chazon Ish ever wrote “against” the בעלי מוסר. He had his own Shittah, which he formulated in some of his letters and to some extent in אמונה ובטחון, but any “criticism” of מוסר was at most implicit.
אגב, it has also been said that נפש החיים is a great Chassidish Sefer… There are many places where It is particularly close to the lashon and shittos of the Tanya, to the point where those not strongly familiar with both Sefarim could be fooled into thinking that a particular quote came from the “other” Sefer… Which goes to show כי אב אחד לכולנו…
Yankel Berel – All the vertlech and maaselech used to perpetuate Machlokes are always from a “mekor ne’eman”… No one is claiming that the Chazon Ish was a “Chossid” or even agreed in theory with (some of) the principles of Chassidus. (We do all agree on at least 613 things, don’t we?) It is well documented that he did have a very positive relationship with many Chassidim during the last Tekufah of his life, when he lived in Bnei Brak, something that was crucial to the success of Bnei Brak as a Chareidi city, as he himself noted. There were also Chassidim and people from a strongly Chassidish background who were members of his inner circle. Not the least of which was his brother in law the Steipler Gaon זצ״ל, who’s parents were Chassidim, who attributed his own birth to the Bracha of a Chassidish Rebbe, and who was נוהג many Chassidish minhagim throughout his life (despite telling his son Reb Chaim זצ״ל to change most of them himself.) Why can’t we all understand this in terms of בית שמאי and בית הלל that Chazal say לא נמנעו מלישא נשים אלו מאלו ולא נמנעו עושין טהרות אלו על גב אלו שהיו נוהגין אהבה שלום ורעות? Chassidus has stood the test of time and is here to stay. The Litvishe Velt does their thing, they aren’t going anywhere, and they are not “under attack” from Chassidus as some may have felt 250 years ago. So why dig up old מחלוקת that has long since died of old age and ceased to be relevant, if it ever was? Even if all the sharfeh vertlech from “mekoros ne’emunim” really were said (a sketchy proposition to say the least…), תכלית למעשה who cares? There are Yidden who absolutely gain from Chassidus, and there are Yidden who absolutely gain from the “Yeshiva World” (the real one, not the web site…) There are also Yidden who absolutely gain from Sephardic Chachamim. (I could add some more groups and subgroups, but I don’t want to start more conflict…) We can all respect each other and love each other and even learn from the things that the “other” groups do better than we do. If, for whatever reason, there were some heated exchanges between different חכמי וצדיקי הדורות over the centuries, we don’t need to get hung up on that, or חס ושלום to disrespect one of the sides. These are very פשוט things that I think we can all agree on. And again, always remember that even before this, there are always at least 613 things we definitely all agree on…
ujm – October 7 happened in “Green Line Israel”, and many of the people harmed believed (until then) in a “one state solution”, just like you do…
“Constant murders etc.” also were mostly inside the “Green Line”.
But yes, we feel safer here, because of the additional השגחה פרטית and סייעתא דשמיא of being בהיכל המלך.
In Germany in the 1920s few if any Jews were killed. The Jews there felt very safe, and felt sorry for the poor Yidden in ארץ ישראל who suffered from numerous terror attacks already then. So you can trust in Trump or whichever politicians or Askonim you hold of, and we will trust in Hashem. Not the IDF, not Bibi, only Hashem Himself.
ujm – “So, too, are secular Zionists (like Netanyahu) who still maintain the old Zionist ideals.”
Wow, ujm, you just gave Bibi a big compliment he doesn’t deserve…
“Are you accusing the Religious Zionists/Daati Leumi of not having functional brains? Because, even if it were doable, they are extremely opposed to such an idea.”
Anyone with a functional brain understands that there is no נפקא מינה anyway, because before Moshiach comes it ISN’T doable AT ALL, and after Moshiach comes מחיית עמלק will make it unnecessary…
HaKatan – I don’t live in the West Bank, but I have a daughter and son-in-law who do. (Real West Bank ר״ל, not Kiryat Sefer…) Personally, I would feel safer there than in Mamadani’s New York, and I don’t see America in general moving in a good direction.
Yankel Berel – “chazon ish was a mitnaged who put aside his hitnagdut in the cause and benefit of judaisn overall”
Well, the original Misnagdim did not put aside their “hitnagdut”… If someone theoretically is opposed to the ideas of Chassidus, but in practice respects Chassidim and Rebbes, they respect him back, has no problem working together with them, even admires and praises certain things that he admits they do better than most Litvaks, so is this person really such a “Misnaged”? I don’t think anyone realistically expects more than that or needs more than that from anyone who doesn’t hold of their Shittah (saying this in both directions.) It’s fine to disagree, even Gedolei Yisroel can disagree, but the Chazon Ish was not מבטל the legitimacy of Chassidim (and probably Chassidus, he didn’t hold they were Kofrim or in Cherem ר״ל or other nonsense suggested here.) He certainly wasn’t מבטל the legitimacy of Mussar, even if he had a different Derech.
דרך אגב, the Kuntres Emunah Uvitachon of the Chazon Ish was published posthumously, and apparently wasn’t even finished. So it is impossible that the Chazon Ish ever had such a conversation… Like so many other apocryphal quotes and maaselech used to promote Machlokes, it’s just another figment of someone’s imagination… I’ve learned אמונה ובטחון of the Chazon Ish, and I would never have known that it’s a “critique” of anything until you said so… In theory every statement of a “shittah” could be seen as an implicit criticism of another shittah, but then אין לדבר סוף. Better to look for less Machlokes and more Shalom.
mdd1 – Although I frequently disagree with ujm on other issues, including the idiotic doubling down on defending a disgusting unrepentant pervert, but his last post about the Chazon Ish is correct. No one ever attempted to claim that in his Shittos and Derech the Chazon Ish was anything other than a Litvak, but he didn’t hold that Chassidim or their Rebbes were פסולי קהל ח״ו the way some mechutzafim posting here seem to suggest.
Gutte Voch Dr. Yaakov Qwerty!
So now ברוך השם I am back to being a Kosher Jew in your book. Thank you for at least being openminded enough to recalculate when you realize something has gone too far. Mind you, I never said anything about the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל being Moshiach or a Novi. Read all of my posts going back to almost a year ago, you will find absolutely nothing of the sort. The only think I said that Shimon didn’t, (he actually almost did, but in a roundabout way), was that if you or anyone else has טענות on Rabbi Friedman, you should contact him. How about if Shimon himself contacts him, and confronts him with the contents of the Sefer he mentioned, where the Lubavitcher Rebbe basically demolishes any הוה אמינא of the line of thinking that Rabbi Friedman may or may not have been going with? I would be very curious as to how such a scenario would play out. Nobody can claim to be a card carrying Lubavitcher AND go against explicit instructions of the Rebbe. So he would have to answer SOMETHING, and based on that it would לכאורה be possible to determine where Rabbi Friedman is really holding. Think about it: If you frame any question as a challenge to Chabad philosophy per se, or even if you just identify yourself as someone who questions his whole outlook, you immediately put him in defensive mode, and therefore any answers given could be questionable. (Which is what you and Yankel rejected any possibility of questioning Rabbi Friedman.) But if you frame the whole thing as “OK, I hear what you say, but how then can we understand Z, Y, and Z that the Rebbe זצ״ל says HERE (presenting him with the Sefer, which דרך אגב, it sounds like it was compiled in response to krumkeit of the sort we are concerned about here…) In other words, tell him “you are A-OK (לצורך העניין), but please tell me Pshat what the Rebbe really meant”. If someone, maybe Shimon, could pull this off convincingly enough, then IMHO it would be possible to determine from Rabbi Friedman’s reaction where he really is holding.
What do you, Yankel Berel, and Shimon Katz think of this line of reasoning?
As far as what you heard from the Chabad Rabbi:
“I asked the Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend when this Moshiach business started and he told me, “When the Rebbe took over in 1951, he announced he’s Moshiach.” Then I asked him why Chabad thinks the Rebbe is a Novi and he told me that when the Rebbe was three years old, he had a dream in which Hashem told him he’s a Novi and he had a vision of himself sitting on a throne with millions of people bowing down to him.”
I have read lots of Chabad Seforim, from the Rebbes and also from Chassidim, and I have seen even some hard-core Meshichist material in flyers and pamphlets etc. floating around my neighborhood (although I never buy any Sefer who’s author is clearly a Meshichist). I have yet to see anything remotely resembling either of those stories. If you see this Rabbi regularly, could you please ask him for מראי מקומות where this stuff comes from? Shimon seems to be quite well versed in Chabad sources, did he ever hear such a thing? אגב, even people who actually have real clairvoyant dreams, for whatever reason משמים Hashem chooses to give them, at age three or at any age, are not automatically Neviim, according to any Shittah, so you could ask him that too.
Dr. Qwerty and Yankel Berel – I am somewhat amused watching your conversation with Shimon Katz. What is he being מחדש to you that I wasn’t? Before Dr. Qwerty was accusing the Rebbe himself of doing horrible things for the basest of motives, and Yankel Berel was seemingly pretty much OK with that, now both of you are מודה במקצת even לגבי the Chassidim, certainly לגבי the Rebbe. So did I just misread you? Did something change your mind? Or is something else going on? “Davening six days a week in a Chabad shul” is way more Kesher with Chabad than I have (on the למעשה level), and certainly doesn’t go together with considering them Kofrim ח״ו. Neither of you would ever daven in a Conservative place of worship, let alone a church. If you REALLY AND TRULY believe them to consider Mitzvos optional, then their Shul is Conservative ח״ו. If you REALLY AND TRULY believe them to “deify” the Rebbe then… So you apparently don’t REALLY AND TRULY believe these things. At any rate, what is the “secret sauce” Shimon is feeding you?
DaMoshe and LerntminTayrah – You both are apparently not aware that the main Machlokes against Chassidus, and particularly the involvement of the Gra זי״ע, began more than a decade AFTER the passing of the Baal Shem Tov.
“The Torah History podcast from Rabbi Aryeh Ganz ( recent episode – maybe season 2 episode 41?) has a story where a certain Rebbe said that the derech of the Besht no longer exists. A bunch of Rebbes from different sects made a mechaah. The Rebbe replied, “Every Rebbe says that the way of the Besht is lost EXCEPT in their own sect. I am just saying the same thing , but adding my own sect as well”.”
The Rebbe was the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל, who did not make that statement in the context you are using it. He held that later generations weren’t living up to the lofty ideals of the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע, not that there was something “wrong” with the Derech of the Baal Shem Tov ח״ו that was “corrected” later. Neither of you seem to be capable of anything other than repeating over old Maaselach from Lita. Can you provide any actual examples of things the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע said to do, that Chassidim did then, but stopped doing later, because the Litvaks told them to stop? Not stories, not podcasts, real documented facts.
WRT the Chazon Ish זצ״ל, he is also said to have attributed the success of Bnei Brak to the Chassidish Baalei Batim and mayor (Reb Yitzchok Gershtenkorn ז״ל), who treated the Chazon Ish as a de-facto Rebbe… and followed his every word with great devotion, as opposed to Vilna itself (his previous home) where the (Litvish…) Baalei Batim ignored the Gedolei Torah and went head over heels after the Haskalah and other secular movements… Did he change his outlook after moving to Bnei Brak and meeting Chassidim firsthand? I don’t know. But his very friendly and positive relationship with the (mostly Chassidish) founders of Bnei Brak is well known and documented. More than your stories are. (What was the date the Chazon Ish supposedly celebrated the “cherem”? Why is a cherem something to celebrate (even if ח״ו necessary)? When the Sanhedrin executed someone they had to fast, not celebrate. The whole “maaseleh” smells “off”.)
DaMoshe – So, you hold that at the time of the Beis Haleivi “Chassidus as the Baal Shem Tov taught it” still existed, and therefore it was assur to bury Chassidim in the regular cemetery, and then a generation later it was OK for his own granddaughter to marry a Chossid? Unlike your Bubbe Maiseh, the marriage of Reb Chaim’s daughter to Reb Hirsh Glickson הי״ד is well documented. So according to you Chassidus died out at some point between 1892 and 1913 and with it the “cherem”. Very interesting…
Have you ever read any of the easily available Seforim containing the recorded teachings of the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע and tried to check what he did and didn’t say based on his own words, not just those of his opponents? Then you could judge for yourself whether his Derech still exists and if it really was so “scary” to begin with. That’s what real Litvaks do right? They think independently and draw their own conclusions… Except when a Negiah of machlokes clouds their brains and they become more closed-minded than what they accuse Chassidim of being… Maybe you should learn some Mussar to gain clarity and self-awareness, that’s Kosher by you? Or are you uber-Litvak and anti-Mussar also?
HaKatan – “The “West Bank” is far more dangerous, as has been sadly proven far too often ever since the Zionists conquered that territory.”
A quick perusal of Chaim Baruch’s list reveals that you consider the home of almost half a million Yidden to be “far more dangerous” than:
Yemen (a dangerous place to be a Goy, let alone a Yid)
Iran (you must have some protekzia there, do you?)
Egypt (a little less likely to be killed than the previous two, but watch your back)
South Africa (tell them you aren’t a Zionist, really NOT a Zionist, maybe paint your face black)
Paris and London (capitals of the second and third nuclear armed Muslim states respectively)
Dublin, Toronto, Montreal, NYC, LA, and Dearborn, Michigan.
He forgot Chicago, although the gang members there are probably equal opportunity murderers.
So good luck, and don’t forget to buy a good Israeli made “Shachpatz” before you go move to Yemen or Dearborn or wherever…
HaKatan – “A letter posted to this site is no longer just for “internal RZ purposes”. His response was, of course, to it being posted here, not to their “internal purposes”.
זאל זיין געזונט, the ORIGINAL LETTER was NOT posted here. The real purpose of the letter is to put pressure on certain RZ politicians who are seen in their own tzibbur as being too close to the Chareidim and not tough enough on Netanyahu. The chances that this letter, emotional though it may be, will actually make a difference at the end of the day to the draft law itself, is quite slim, and the writers know it. Some well-meaning person posted it here (for what תועלת I’m not sure, because no one on either side is going to change their stance on this issue because of something like this), and the usual suspects right away began to pounce… Anyone with any amount of empathy, no matter how strongly he is opposed to the positions expressed in the letter, easily understands that even were you to encounter the original author of the original letter there is ZERO חיוב מחאה here, and certainly ABSOLUTE ZERO תועלת to be מוחה. But go explain that to someone who doesn’t have any empathy. Someone who sits on his toilet seat and dreams of endangering the life of millions of Yidden in the name of his warped NK uber-Kanoi ideology rejected even by Satmar.
For what it’s worth, in Russia they have Daylight Savings Time all year round, among other reasons in order to avoid the issues that arise from suddenly changing the clock. If you like that, then I guess you could say that just like a broken clock is right twice a day, so can Russia be on the right side of one issue…