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ZSK – I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it.
Sure it does… ואכמ״ל
ZSK – IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.
So was the Cantonist decree or any other גזרות שמד.
ZSK – Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns them.
They are there, and they can leave. The Kanoyim are still here after 77 years of not being in the government or taking money from them. If they call their bluff, there won’t be anything remaining for the Left to leverage.
ZSK – I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw.
ממה נפשך, if they are for real, they will listen to the גדולי תורה. If not ח״ו, they will have an opportunity to choose. I also have seen a lot in almost 30 years of living in Israel, though I don’t agree with your assessment. My gut feeling is that when push comes to shove more are for real than you think. (I also think that the real loser of this מצב will be the AG/Bagatz Junta, becaus more ‘Chilonim’ are מאמינים than many here think, and civil war ר״ל is not an option for anyone.)
ZSK – But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments.
I understand where you are coming from, but look at it the other way. (Don’t get me wrong, and I am not trying to make a 1:1 comparison in terms of intensity.) There were ‘laws on the books’ in the time of the Greeks, the Romans, all of Medieval Europe, Spain, Russia… The גדולי התורה of those generations taught us that our ‘ideological arguments’, i.e. the Torah (its letter and spirit) come before those laws. Sometimes we had a נס חנוכה, and sometimes we were tortured and slaughtered, but we are still here, and they are long gone… You may argue that here it is different, because it’s a ‘Jewish’ state with Chareidi participation in government, etc. The bottom line is that ALL of the Chareidi (and some RZ) Gedolei Torah aren’t buying it. As I have mentioned previously, the consensus is far too broad to blame on politics. This is real, whether anyone likes it or not. If it means all Chareidim becoming Kanoyim, with all that implies, so be it. We aren’t going anywhere, and there isn’t enough room in Israeli jails for 54,000 boys. The Israeli government will not be able to do anything more brutal than Antiochus or Hadrian or Czar Nicholas I ימח שמם. Then, as now, the point of the ‘laws’ was to integrate the Jews into their vision of the broader society, and they didn’t see themselves as villains or oppressors for trying to do so.
The reality is that the IDF has no use for thousands of Chareidi soldiers who ‘aren’t with the program’. For them this is a bigger pain in the neck then the Hilltop Youth (who at least believe in fighting Arabs…) Left to their own devices, the IDF brass (and probably Bibi and most of the politicians) wanted somewhat more of what has been going on until now – ויזנב בך כל הנחשלים אחריך to turn into Chardakim, some of whom may finish off still outwardly resemble Chareidim enough to be able to convince a new and slightly larger crop to join the next round. IMHO, the AG and Bagatz are (most unwilling) שליחים of the השגחה עליונה to raise the bar too high and too fast, and break the cycle. They themselves don’t understand that their actions and words are doing more to stop Chareidi recruitment (among those somewhat more serious, but still בקצה המחנה) than anything the גדולי תורה could have done on their own. This מצב will force the ‘at risk’ demographic to decide who they are and where they want to be. This will also harden and unify Chareidi positions on issues that may otherwise have been negotiable or internally contentious. Those who will leave will primarily be those who were looking to leave anyway. (Same thing that happened with the Hellenists, Meshumadim, Maskilim, etc.)
The bottom line is, pitting the ‘rule of law’ (something that isn’t exactly Israel’s strong point even in the best of times…) against the rule of Torah (as interpreted by the real גדולי ישראל, the ones the דעת בעלי בתים don’t like…) will not work. It might not be pretty, but it won’t work.
Sechel – I’m also a little suspicious about who ‘CS’ really is. If she just wants to be מתחזק with friends, there are plenty of Chabad and Chabad friendly websites and social media. However, the moderators should really clean up anything going near ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, of ANY kind, or hate language, again of ANY kind. (It says so in the rules, doesn’t it?)
Non political – The previous thread with the same name 3.0 was completely taken over by a disturbed troll who rambled out hundreds of posts full of crude hate language, including towards the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself. Either the moderators have to start doing their job, or just avoid certain subjects until they do.
AAQ – I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed.
The bottom line is, our job is to serve Hashem on His terms, as defined in the Torah, as taught by גדולי הדורות חכמי התורה. That’s where it starts, and that’s where it ends. That is the definition of the Jewish People, that Hashem miraculously kept going through the millennia. The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. We ARE an outside entity, because we define our national identity and covenant in completely different terms. We were here first, and we will be here last. How exactly that will work out is Hashem’s business. Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור. If you don’t like that, you can live your life how you see fit, I have no ability or desire to tell anyone what to do. The מצב בשטח, as they say here, is that most of the PEOPLE of Israel are much closer to Yiddishkeit than the STATE and its institutions are. I am involved in Kiruv on a number of levels, and I see it every day. But even in Kiruv, our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.
I’m starting to question whether posting here is worth it altogether, seeing the same דעת בעלי בתים tropes paraded day in and day out, often by people who live in חוץ לארץ and are far removed from the reality on the ground (and from serving in the IDF themselves…)
Are Roster – Preventing גילוי עריות does in fact come before saving Jewish lives. I know already the tropes you will answer with, and I don’t have time to repeat the answers on every new thread. Ask your local תלמיד חכם to explain the sugya. Suffice it to say that ALL the גדולי תורה here in Israel are united on this issue.
Simcha613 – Everything in Torah is ‘vague’ without the guidance of חכמי התורה גדולי הדור. Especially inyanim of Emunah and Hashkafah. That ‘vagueness’ is where דעת בעלי בתים comes from… There are many other problems with the IDF, that the Israeli government has no interest (or even legal ability for now) to adress. The גדולי הדור will decide what to do למעשה. Any further discussion is in fact ‘beating to death’ and a waste of time.
Ari Knobler – The Gemara you quote is referring to the learner himself. The Maharsha over there is referring to Doeg and Achitofel, and why their Torah learning didn’t protect them from dying prematurely (as punishment for their רשעות). Your attitude is called מאי אהני לן רבנן (as in היכי דמי אפיקורוס…), discussed in Sanhedrin 99b and the mefarshim there. If you are smart enough to read the Maharsha and quote half of it, you can easily find the relevant sources if you want to… At any rate, neither you or me can decide these matters למעשה, only גדולי הדור. If you don’t like it, then do what you want. כלל ישראל will keep on going…
You are accusing Chareidim of “cowardice” and “ideological convenience”? So, let all the Chiloni cowards join Yeshivos, if it is in fact so easy and convenient… Get real. Chareidim ‘give up’ many things secular Israelis (and MO) hold dear, for the sake of their ideology. If you think that the existence of כלל ישראל altogether, and our survival through the generations, is not the direct result of Divine Providence, which is dependent upon the ברית ושבועה at הר סיני when we got the Torah and promised to learn it and keep it, then ח״ו you have less אמונה than millions of believing Goyim… I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I don’t think you really were מתיישב what you even wrote, because it’s so off kilter Jewishly speaking.
As it is, the real issue with the army is גילוי עריות, as has been discussed here many times, and hinted to in ‘yeshivaman613’s post here. We believe that אלקיהם של אלה שונא זימה הוא, and והיה מחניך קדוש (as in the ARMY מחנה…), do you?
Moshiach’s army?! LOL!!!!!! הלוואי the Roshei Yeshiva and some of the Maggidei Shiur might make the grade… Maybe… You’re comparing that to a Chiloni co-ed cesspool?! Not even a joke. In Moshiach’s army (if he will even need one) they won’t have abortion clinics… There will be some other differences too…
By the way, which IDF unit did you serve in?
ujm – This is the second time I completely agree with a post of yours.
AAQ – Same happened before between chassidim and misnagdim
A good example that has been noted by both Chassidim and Litvaks. Again, not davka through ‘learning’ by each other (although here too that has also happened), but simply by example.
HaKatan – The wicked Israeli Left (ערב רב) is pushing all kinds of filthy progressive ‘treif alphabet soup’ ideology, as well as kefirah and sometimes avoda zara (‘Bagrut’ points for studying other religions in high school, for example. Did you know about that?). They aborted more Jewish babies than the Nazis killed children in the Holocaust (2,000,000 plus vs. about 1,500,000, so much for them caring about ‘Jewish continuity’). They do all kinds of filthy and wicked things you don’t even know about. But they are so far off that they don’t even believe in ‘Zionism’ any more… So, when you yell about ‘Zionism’, you miss the point. It’s like the whole point of what they are doing is just to try to get you to say ‘Zionism’, and then they trapped your Neshama… Knowing the enemy (and who the real enemy is) is the most critical thing in battle (not trying to plagiarize Sun Tsu). Many, if not most ‘RZ’ people today in Israel, are significantly more ehrlich than the average MO in America. Some RZ are basically Chareidim in different clothing, and with some idealism about building settlements etc. They aren’t Kofrim. Neither are Belz and Vizhnitz and Ger… (Who do take limited money from the Medinah.) The real bad guys (who are dwindling in numbers) don’t even call themselves Zionists. Try Googling ‘Post-Zionism’, or read a little about the ‘Bagatz’ and the ‘Rotschild protests’. Half of what you write is dated and no longer correct, and the other half is correct, but it isn’t ‘Zionism’ any more. Understanding the issues better, and targeting your bullets where they belong, will make your message more effective and less offensive.
Chabad Shlucha – Please don’t take what I said personally. I have the utmost respect for Chabad and especially the Shlichim. The Rebbe זצ״ל didn’t hold of debates with misnagdim. There are plenty of Yidden out there to reach out to without wasting time debating people who have no intention of being מקבל anything.
Chabad Shlucha – Please, if you really do love and respect the Rebbe, his teachings, and his legacy (I also do, although I am not Lubavitch myself), PLEASE DO NOT START THESE THREADS. There are a small number (possibly only one) of seriously disturbed trolls, with an obsessive hate of Lubavitch, who hijack the conversation and turn it into a rage-room full of disgusting hate language and ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, that bears no resemblance to a real Torah debate. Look at what happened to ‘Hi I’m Back 3.0’, now with almost 900 comments, almost all of them pure garbage. (Where are the moderators?! Do they do anything at all? If someone would use the same language ‘qwerty613’ uses about the Lubavitcher Rebbe to describe a Litvish Gadol, would that also be OK with them? No deletions ever?) If you REALLY ARE CHABAD (?), so PLEASE DON’T FEED THE TROLLS.
Keith – You are right that lashon hara is terrible, but that doesn’t make any other Torah prohibition not terrible. I don’t think that the גילוי עריות etc. that goes on in the IDF is helping to bring Moshiach either… Neither is the lashon hara and שנאת חינם coming out of the pro-army camp, for that matter.
Everyone here should really stop and think for a moment – nothing anyone says here or in any real life ‘coffee room’ makes any difference in the situation in Israel, or anywhere else. So why the hyperbole? It’s enough just to say what you think and move on, if even that is needed…
Just to be clear. I am not interested in continuing the endless debate about Zionism etc. ad nauseam. It is not OK to call Jews kofrim, idol worshippers, galachim, etc., because they have a mistake in שיטה, and often not even that. (There are plenty of other possibly worse forms of krumkeit right here in the coffee room, especially of the מאי אהני לן רבנן variety, which is actual אפיקורסות according to the Gemara. I don’t see the Kanoyim calling them out.)
My only intention was to point out the complete fallacy of the opening post in this thread, which is in fact a man-bit-dog story. Aside which, it’s hard to give the IDF credit at all. Lazer Brody did not become Frum because his drill sergeant learned with him Likutey Moharan or taught him about Hisbodedus… Many people became בעלי תשובה after going through traumatic experiences or facing death, and that got them thinking about what the real תכלית of life is all about. Sometimes that can happen in the army. I have heard true stories like that about former soldiers in the American Army (which protects more Jews than the IDF…), the Russian Army (go volunteer there?), and also in the Israeli Army. Also about people who were in car crashes and jungle exploration mishaps, among other things. It isn’t some special סגולה of the IDF…
If you take the sum total of Jews who became Baalei Teshuvah due to their army experiences ALONE, and add the total number of Jews who became OTD due to ‘anti-Zionist’ rhetoric ALONE, then in my humble estimation you are still at least two orders of magnitude short of the number of Jews who went OTD in the IDF… There are also some former hostages who became בעלי תשובה while in captivity by Hamas, do you recommend doing that also?
HaKatan said – they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).
They aren’t DOING more shmad now… Those Israelis are the grandchildren of the ones the old Zionists tore away from Yiddishkeit BACK THEN. The larger numbers reflect population growth over 70 years. (As opposed to secular Jews in חוץ לארץ whose numbers shrink due to rampant assimilation…) That is a terrible מצב, but the way to fight it is not by screaming (at other Chareidim no less…) about ‘Zionism’, but by doing more Kiruv, or helping those who do so.
AAQ – When speaking about how different communities are מחזק each other, I didn’t mean necessarily by direct contact and interaction, although that does happen to some extent. Simply knowing that some Jews out there, who also live in 5785 and deal with many of the same challenges you do, are better than you in field X, can often inspire one to invest at least a little more effort in that field than one otherwise would have been inclined. That idea actually was codified by the Rambam in Hilchos Deios, about the importance of where one lives and who one associates with, but the sources goes back to Tanach and Chazal in multiple places – הולך את חכמים יחכם and more. (Not דווקא one who is לומד מחכמים, even just הולך, to hang around with חכמים.)
The point you made about Rav Soloveitchik is לכאורה correct.
ZSK:
1. The ‘Bagatz’ is THE wedge preventing any cooperation in Israeli society in general, and plays incessant divide-and-conquer to achieve their own goals.
2. My focus was on ‘conscientious’, as in ‘due to matters of conscience’. The fact that those ‘matters of conscience’ are of the type ‘that to the non-Charedi majority boils down to cultural preservation’ doesn’t change anything. The ‘non-Chareidi majority’ doesn’t decide matters of Halacha or Hashkafa for us.
3A. You said – I don’t disagree with this and I’ve said so on more than one occasion on this forum. However, I do not consider such a good enough reason for Charedi and RZ men to not serve. – Well, גדולי ישראל do not agree with you. I don’t know what planet you live on if you think the Gerrer Rebbe wants to (or needs to…) bring down a government just to get his grandson out of the draft.
3B. “the Charedi leadership should be making real attempts to work with the IDF to make service possible” – Something that cannot take place under ‘Bagatz’ progressive dictatorship. Both of us know that, and you have also said so yourself.
4. Here you almost explicitly agree with what I said in 3B.
5. That is probably what will eventually happen once the Bagatz is out of the way, and real change to the IDF becomes possible. It doesn’t look like that is happening anytime soon.
6. I don’t have the time or the stomach to write in detail about politics. Suffice it to say that the usual דעת בעלי בתים deflections of blaming everything גדולי ישראל say that they don’t like on power politics won’t cut it here. It is clear that there is a broad and deep consensus here between a wide range of Rabbonim, Rebbes, and Roshei Yeshiva, which goes way beyond ‘politics’.
7-8. That is true, but only because those were the majority of the ‘Chareidim’ filling the quotas until now… The anti-Chareidi camp is starting to understand that, and they want real Chareidi blood, not the fake variety.
9. IMHO, the IDF isn’t so stupid, and they look the other way rather than drafting kids they don’t want. They play this same game לכתחילה with boys from strongly anti-Zionist communities and ‘Hilltop Youth’, among others. If they really wanted them, they wouldn’t ‘buy’ the psychiatrist stories.
AAQ – Not because ‘Satmar will stop davening by us’ or because of ‘Chareidi reaction’. Simply by seeing that there are people who (usually/in general/in many areas/disclaimer of your choice) do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ. Not because they are afraid of anyone, but because they are also Jewish and they also want to be ehrlich and this silently reminds them that they can be better. Again, I am referring to those areas in which Chareidim do in fact do better than MO. No intention to start a debate on the relative merits of either group. The same can also be said of the symbiotic relationship of all different groups of observant Jews, (Sephardim, Litvish, Chassidish, the serious RZ, and all variations of the above), who each excel in some way, and inspire others to be better too.
I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship. No one, not even Satmar etc., ever remotely suggested that entering a MO/RZ Shul (at least normal mainstream MO that conform to basic Halacha) is in any way comparable to a non-Orthodox בית הכסא.
ZSK – I was also disgusted by the language used, and especially the timing, and I let him know that too. I’m starting to think that the real reason some people are so fixated on fighting ‘Zionism’ is that it ‘allows’ them to copy-paste harsh language from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue, and apply it to anyone they don’t like now, without feeling guilty – because such-and-such a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva ‘also said that’ (in a completely different era and context). Even back then, usually by the time these ‘statements’ attributed to Gedolim made it to street level or to biographies of questionable accuracy, much was added and embellished… The Chazon Ish and the Satmar Rov (for example) wrote many seforim. Someone who wants to see what they definitely did say can look there. But it’s more exciting to quote apocryphal (and ‘juicy’) stories…
sechel83 – Please stop dignifying this crackpot by engaging him in debate. He has absolutely no interest in what you (or anyone who disagrees with his obsessive hate) has to say. You are just causing his venom glands to produce more poison. Ignore him and let this disgusting thread finally die out, if the moderators refuse to do their job and erase it.
Calling any Jew a ‘galach’ ‘sheigitz’ etc. is disgusting, and accomplishes nothing to get your point across.
ZSK said – We’d can be sure we’d be better off if the entire Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim publicly admitted their past positions toward Zionism were a Hora’as sha’ah that are no longer relevant and instead joined the rest of the Orthodox Tzibbur, got jobs, helped the RZ community turn the IDF into something respectable and paid taxes like they are supposed to.
Past issues with Zionism are not the reason for the present issues you mentioned. Most Chassidim do have jobs. There are different issues in Eretz Yisroel and Chutz Laaretz.
We’d also be better off the RZ and MO communities stopped compromising on Orthodox values to please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors, coworkers, colleagues, etc.
The main thing preventing them from doing so even more is that they see the example of the Chareidim. (Something Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik said in his day about American MO and Satmar…)
And we’d be better off if the non-Orthodox communities just admitted they are essentailly bagel flavored progressivism and not attempt to speak for Judaism.
They have no way of figuring that out on their own, because for the most part they know nothing about real Judaism. The solution is not to ‘accept’ their matzav, but to be מקרב them. The rest will die out within three generations from assimilation, like half of them already did.
DuvidF – Shkoyach Reb Noach, so, if you like, erase point #5. That is the least relevant of the issues I raised, since I was in fact referring to ‘biological’ Kohanim and Leviim. I deliberately didn’t raise the issue of drafting תלמידי חכמים or צורבא מרבנן, to avoid endless debate on who qualifies for those terms. (That there is a prohibition on drafting תלמידי חכמים is quite clear, but not necessary or even relevant for our purposes.) The main problem with the IDF is גילוי עריות, along with a host of other issues, which are issues even for ‘Dati’ soldiers, of whom approximately 20% go OTD, (down from 50% decades ago…), but their leaders ‘religious’ devotion to the Medinah and the IDF overrides these concerns.
ZSK said – Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.
A ‘conscientious objector’ in the Western legal sense is usually someone opposed to the entire concept of war for religious or ideological reasons. Chareidi opposition to serving in the IDF is clearly based on religious and ideological reasons, whether you agree with them or not. If living the Chareidi lifestyle is so easy, and it’s worth it just to get out of the pesky draft (for laziness’s sake of course, no ideology to see here…), so why don’t the RZ and Chilonim join Chareidi Yeshivos and live the good life? אלא מאי, you know yourself that what you are saying is nonsense, and the whole Chareidi position isn’t ‘worth it’ from any point of view other than religious/ideological, except that you strongly disagree with their ideology, so TO YOUR MIND they are ‘draft dodgers’, even though if you want to be honest with yourself you have to admit that בגשמיות it would be much easier for them to just ‘go with the flow’ RZ style (as some weaker ones do, that actually is the exception that proves the rule.)
AAQ said – Right, so according to shitato: every charedi needs to register with the draft first and then bring proofs of their exemption.
That’s exactly what they do… You should familiarize yourself with the subject more if you really want to weigh in with an opinion. Why you would need to have an opinion altogether when you live in חוץ לארץ is a different שאלה, one that I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to…
For everyone, pro-Medinah and anti:
1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to והיה מחניך קדוש (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.
2. Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards are impossible without total reform of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto controls Israel, as well as undoing the last 30 years of legislative and judicial precedents WRT ‘gender integration’. This might actually happen when Chareidim eventually become a majority of the population.
3. Whatever course Chareidi Jewry takes will be charted by גדולי ישראל, who know better than me and you. Those who think they know better will anyway do what they want. (No need to roll out the rusty old tropes about the Holocaust and the Medinah and yadda yadda. You can do what you want without being מתרץ yourself to me or the lamppost.) Hashem will do what He wants. Far enough forward it will be clear in hindsight who was right. ואתם הדבקים בה׳ אלקיכם חיים כולכם היום
I have new respect for you, Reb ‘ujm’, after seeing your comment. This is a thread that actually accomplishes something real.
somejew – The story about the Chazon Ish doesn’t say so. לועג על דברי חכמים, certainly the way the Chazon Ish understood it, is something many ostensibly Chareidi people do in various ways. Learn the Sugya in Sanhedrin. Zionism has many problems, but not necessarily לועג על דברי חכמים, although it may be a big risk factor.
sechel83 – As they say here חבל על הזמן. You aren’t going to convince Mr. Qwerty of anything. Just leave him alone to stew in his own juices and this idiotic thread will die out ממילא. What is the point of debating someone so obsessed with things that have no relevance to his own life? No one is asking him to be a Lubavitcher. If he wants to go through life thinking that Reuven is an Apikoros and Shimon is a Kofer (and he himself is a fine Ehrlicher Yid…), so let him live that way. Answering him back just triggers his venom glands and results in כל שכן דפקר טפי, so better to do אל תענה כסיל כאיולתו.
qwerty613 – I don’t hate you. In fact, I don’t know you, and you don’t know me… I left this thread because already a month ago I saw it wasn’t going anywhere. I was just surprised to see it running for so long, with so many comments.
To quote you:
So let me share the salient points.
1. Don’t give Mussar to people who won’t listen to you, and I don’t have any interest in what a nasty jerk like you has to say.
(The people you disagree with probably don’t have any interest in what a pleasant and friendly fellow like you has to say.)
2. Second don’t give Mussar unless you like the person you’re trying to reach. I’m sure you hate my guts as much as I hate you.
(You just admitted that you aren’t qualified to give Mussar. So don’t do it. How do you hate someone you don’t even know?)
3. Don’t give Mussar unless you’ve made changes in yourself. Clearly you’re way too arrogant to ever work on yourself.
(You feel free to criticize others, including the Lubavitcher Rebbe, because you are so… humble? I guess you must have made really big changes in yourself before you got to be so great.)
If you want more of this keep writing. I’ve got plenty more in my arsenal.
(I don’t care. I actually invited you to do so. Better you should use me as a punching bag than ח״ו to do so with the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל. If you would get professional help, it would be better and more effective. Why should it make any difference in my life what a nameless and faceless (and apparently mentally ill) troll rants and raves?)
Are you like this in real life, or is this just your ‘rage room’? Seriously, copy and paste all 875 comments to an email, send it anonymously to the mental health professional of your choice, without identifying which participant you are, and ask him if ‘qwerty613’ is in need of therapy or other intervention.
Qwerty, if you need a punching bag, so rage-post me (like you did for a few days 700 comments ago…), not the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am definitely less of an Ehrlicher Yid than he was… But better for everyone to just shut up and move on with something more meaningful and productive, especially ערב תשעה באב.
All you guys are finished being מתקן yourselves? Looked at a Jewish calendar lately? Nothing better to do? 870 posts accomplishing what exactly?
1. No one here will succeed in convincing anyone of anything, no matter what. This thread has long since disintegrated into a rage-room, nothing more.
2. The guy from the קמצא/בר קמצא story was probably just as sure as you all are that he was right… He wasn’t…
3. I’m assuming everyone here is mentally healthy (more or less) and Orthodox Jewish (more or less).
4. So what are you all trying to accomplish?
Clap clap clap. An ad-hominem attack thread Erev Tisha B’Av. Moderators please delete this garbage as a z’chus for Klal Yisroel.
It’s a general rule in Shas, that whenever a special פסוק or דרשה is necessary, it is to teach an EXCEPTION, not the normative rule.
DuvidF – The Sifri you quote proves the opposite – ONLY in מלחמת מדין did שבט לוי participate, NEVER in any other war, and we need a special פסוק to teach us that THAT ONE TIME שבט לוי was also included. The אחרונים discuss why, mainly because מלחמת מדין was a רוחניות battle to avenge the מעשה פעור, similar to the story of Chanukah, which is the only other historical military campaign of כלל ישראל where שבט לוי participated and led.
somejewiknow – The quote you bring from a biography of the Chazon Ish (not ספר חזון איש or any authoritative Halachic work of his תלמידים…) is not talking about Zionism per-se, rather לועג על דברי חכמים, something many ostensibly ‘Chareidi’ people (including on this website) permit themselves to indulge in… The source for that is the Gemara in מסכת סנהדרין, not a special חידוש of the Chazon Ish. If you want to be more Lomdish, that actually proves AGAINST your argument – If the only reason the Mizrachi Rabbi is פסול is because he is לועג על דברי חכמים, then simply being Mizrachi isn’t enough… The story about the ‘Kiddush’ sounds garbled and missing pieces (and also לכאורה contradicts the previous quotes.) What is meant by “this is the first I’ve heard”? There was plenty of interaction between the Chazon Ish and members of Mizrachi before then. Also, bear in mind that at the time the Secular Zionists were proactively tearing children away from Yiddishkeit, importing treif meat and selling it with the Hechsher of the Rabbanut, and attempting to forcibly conscript Chareidi/Dati GIRLS (=גילוי עריות for those who can’t put two and two together), all with the tacit and-or explicit complicity of the old Mizrachi זכרונם לבראך. Many of the secularists themselves at the time were from Frum homes who were שנה ופירש קשה מכולם, with an agenda to eliminate Yiddishkeit, similar to the Soviet Yevsektzia. (Some of the Mizrachi were not much better, despite pretending to be Frum… That may explain the Kiddush story, and why it seems to be ‘censored’…) Nowadays the situation is quite different, and most of what is going on is from ignorance, not malice.
The ‘quote’ (mis)attributed here to the Chazon Ish regarding yain nesech doesn’t make sense at all לשיטתו, and IMHO could not have been said by him. (Or else something is missing from the statement or the context.) The burden of proof is on whoever makes such a sensational claim to provide verifiable sources.
Seriously folks, on both sides of the never ending fight, let’s try to understand:
1. SECULAR ZIONISM IS LONG SINCE DEAD AND BURIED.
Secular Zionism is the belief that by establishing a state the Jews would be accepted into the ‘family of nations’ as equals, ending antisemitism. In other words: ככל הגוים בית ישראל. That is straight אפיקורסות. That was the real goal, and settling the Land was simply the means to the goal, but a state in Uganda would also have been fine for them. That is what the גדולים were fighting against, and all quotations on this subject pertain to an era when that belief was current. At the time, there were unfortunately ‘religious’ Jews who bought into that ideal. (Not the Uganda stuff, but the idea of ‘auto-emancipation’.) Nowadays no sane person can seriously believe any of this, because it is so painfully obvious that Zionism did nothing to ameliorate antisemitism, and the Jewish people will never be accepted by the Goyim, with or without a state. (Not a surprise for us…)
2. THE RESHAIM CURRENTLY FIGHTING כל דבר שבקדושה IN ארץ ישראל ARE NOT ZIONISTS.
The Secular Left in Israel today mostly subscribe to what has been referred to as ‘Post-Zionism’, meaning they believe that the whole concept of a Jewish State is wrong and unethical, and they seek to establish a ‘State of all it’s citizens’. Vis-a-vis the ‘Palestinian’ issue, this is sometimes referred to as the ‘One State Solution’. This comes from the postmodern/progressive opposition to nationalism in general. They are viciously anti-religious and pro תועבה, as well as all the other garbage Progressives hold dear. Some of the more extreme ones actively help enemies of the State of Israel, as has been reported on this site in several articles.
3. NOT ALL OF TODAY’S ‘RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS’ EVEN BELIEVE IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו ETC.
The term ‘Religious Zionist’ as used today encompasses a broad range of groups, from people who are barely שומר מצוות altogether, to those who are completely Chareidi in their lifestyle and standards of Yiddishkeit, but they also believe in building settlements on the hills of the Shomron to hasten the גאולה. Many of the latter groups do not even hold of the State, or even serve in the Army. In fact, it is well known that boys who show up to the לשכת הגיוס wearing a certain ‘look’ associated with certain ‘Religious Zionist’ groups are usually rejected automatically…
AAQ said – Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
So come here and join. We’re waiting for you… If you really believe what you say, then why is living in America a bigger היתר to ‘shirk responsibility’ than concern about real Halacha and Hashkafa issues is? If this is a כלל ישראל issue, so why are you (and all the other big talkers in America) less obligated than the boys who happen to live here?
LOL. The IDF isn’t Moshe Rabbeinu’s army. Not by a long shot.
Yechiell said – Why does this forum allow anti-Zionists to spew forth their vile hatred?
Are you new to this site? What did you think would happen when you threw out a potentially provocative question? (Which happens to be incorrect, regardless of your position on Zionism itself.)
I have a better question. Why does this forum allow some commenters to “spew forth” anti-Yeshivish attitudes and content while calling itself “Yeshivah World News”? I am not a fan of ‘ujm’ or ‘somejew’ type screeds, but at least this isn’t “Zionist World News”, so their comments don’t directly contradict the stated purpose of the site. Some of the anti-Chareidi comments I have seen here would be offensive to many ‘Traditional’ non-Chareidi Israelis…
Maybe there were some differences between the army of Yehoshua bin Nun and, להבדיל אלף אלפי הבדלות, the IDF?
1. No girls.
2. No chilonim.
3. No singles. (The draft age was 20, being single after 20 subjects one to condition number 4…)
4. No עברה of any kind, דאורייתא, or דרבנן, or עובר על דברי חכמים, up to and including interrupting between תפילין של יד and של ראש…
5. No Kohanim and Leviim.
6. Probably no one currently in the IDF, or in the Yeshivos for that matter, would make the grade.
ואם תמצא לומר, so how do we make an army now? Well, that’s a very good question. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of a “Jewish Army” as described in Tanach and הלכות מלחמה of the Rambam. Nothing. Zero.
All you need to do (and all you really can do) is compare existing brands/items and choose whatever can reasonably be expected to give you the best ROI. Try using resources like Consumers’ Reports and other independent reviewers, or for big items talk to repair workers and ask them what really lasts and what doesn’t.
AAQ – Theoretically there may be such a thing. Practically there are many complications:
1. Who is eligible? Since the whole point of ‘reparations’ is to play with ‘white guilt’, what about whites who have black ancestors? (There are many. Some of the enslaved ‘blacks’ were 3/4 or more white, including famously Thomas Jefferson’s ‘pilegesh’ who was the mother of six white skinned children.) Do they fit the ‘narrative’?
2. What about people descended from both slaves and slave owners? (e.g. Kamala Harris…)
3. What about American Blacks whose ancestors were enslaved elsewhere (Caribbean immigrants = most of Crown Heights, Bed Sty, and adjacent neighborhoods)?
4. Speaking of the Caribbean, what about whole countries populated by the descendants of slaves, slave-owners, and indigenous peoples who were misched together over the centuries? Who gives and who gets? Slavery in the Caribbean was much more widespread and brutal than in the United States.
5. Why do you assume West Africa deserves compensation? The local Black yokels were the ones who sold the slaves to begin with… One tribe of vilde chayes would raid the tribe down the road and sell their prisoners to the slave traders, and next season the other tribe would win.
6. What about the East African slave trade, which was a much bigger operation than the Atlantic trade, and very brutal (work on plantations in India and Indonesia, hard labor in the Middle East, etc.), and was conducted exclusively by Arabs… The Arab and Muslim slave traders also engaged in what is today referred to as ‘human trafficking’ of whites… But all this is whitewashed because it doesn’t fit the Liberal race narrative.
7. Reparations ultimately become a ‘Chad Gadya’ type of thing. Suppose we sue Italy for property damage and looting done during Churban Bayis Sheini… They would then sue the Huns and Visigoths (Germany and Norway)? And then what?
The truth is, when Moshiach will come there will be major reparations to be paid with 2000 years of interest… תחת הנחושת אביא זהב ותחת הברזל כסף ותחת העץ נחושת ותחת האבנים ברזל, and there will be those who won’t be able to pay their way תחת רבי עקיבא וחבריו מה תביאו. But לכאורה no human court is capable of figuring this stuff out until then. במהרה בימינו אמן.
ujm said – It is only applicable to Yehudim; not to shkotzim who calls us Jews sonei yisroel.
Google ‘circular reasoning’ and ‘no true Scotsman’. (If you even take yourself seriously, something I think is questionable…)
ZSK – You can find some Satmar-type Chassidim on the internet, but they have their own sites. They don’t typically troll or try to ‘convert’ to their השקפה. I don’t know exactly who or what ujm, HaKatan, and somejew are in real life, but they know nothing about the reality of Israeli life and society. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing.
AAQ – I’m referring to the probability of one’s being Jewish altogether, something ‘ujm’ ridiculously challenged. (Although technically חזקה is enough, like by almost everything else.) Any pre-Haskalah/mass assimilation maternal yichus is equal in this regard, whether you can trace your GGGM to Sanz, or Vilna, or Aleppo. (The latter probably being even better yichus.) The Gemara you refer to is concerned about the (albeit remote) possibility of other forms of פסולי יחוס.
To extend your logic, I think, good middos is the only sure sign of good yihus, and opposite – of opposite.
Absolutely correct, but it’s not MY logic, it’s a Gemara in Kiddushin 71a, which is brought להלכה למעשה in detail in Even HaEzer Siman 2. So, don’t be משתדך with trolls…
kuvult – Excuse me, it was Delaware and Kentucky, not Maryland. Lincoln actually dismissed the elected government of Maryland at the beginning of the Civil War to prevent them from going Confederate and cutting off Washington DC from the rest of the Union, which was another legally questionable move (that worked).
ujm said – Unfortunately, you on the other hand, on your maternal side is quite short and has strong indications of gentile blood.
200 years is short? Anyone who can trace his maternal yichus to pre-Haskalah times (so can I, to chassidim of the Divrei Chaim in Sanz) can basically be 100% certain that he is a Kosher Jew. On the other hand, the Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer Siman 2) based on the Gemara in Kiddushin says clearly that one who habitually accuses others of being פסולי ייחוס is HIMSELF suspect… Especially if he is argumentative and שונא את הבריות, i.e. a ‘troll’, which is an indication of guess what type of blood… Aside from the fact that there is an actual Halachic איסור to make such a claim, even as a joke. Look it up, it’s all there. If we had a בית דין with legal power to do so, you could be put in חרם for making such a statement (Yoreh Deiah 334, 43) as in real חרם, not online flaming. Seriously, get your act together and get a life.
ZSK – In general, I’m suspicious of anyone posting on this forum claiming to speak in the name of Satmar-orbit ideologies. Real Satmar Chassidim (of whom I know quite a few) don’t typically hang out on English language Yeshivish-Modern Chassidish-Parve websites. Some of the regular trolls here seem to be very familiar with the names and details of various Modern Orthodox Rabbis who have expressed problematic views, and other information from way outside the ‘heimishe velt’, more than I am familiar, and almost certainly more than any regular Satmar Chossid would be… Normative Satmar Chassidim are not hateful or argumentative (to a greater extent than one would find among average human beings), and many of them give much tzedaka and do chessed with people who don’t necessarily share all of their ideology.
AAQ – Well, for purposes of the opening question of this thread, it would be advantageous to claim descent from a slave owner. I think we can agree that f there was anything to gain financially or legally by claiming such descent, anyone who could would come running, regardless of skin color, or under what circumstances his great-great-grandparents met. My main point actually was that the whole ‘reparations’ discussion (the regular one, of ‘blacks’ claiming reparations from ‘whites’) is inherently flawed, and just a cover story for racism. If descendants inherit guilt from 160 years back, why should that guilt follow racial lines rather than genealogical lines? It is documented that Kamala Harris is a descendant of one of the most notorious slave traders (not just an owner) of 18th century Jamaica, but that didn’t stop her from playing the ‘white guilt’ card against Donald Trump, who has no known slave owners in his ancestry.
ZSK – I don’t think ‘ujm’ is a ‘Sonei Yisrael’ so much as a pyromaniac looking to start some ‘action’. I suspect his views and behavior in real life may be different than how he presents himself online…
ujm – למאי נפקא מינה? If we still have to fast on Sunday then we are still in Galus, geographic location notwithstanding. If you are referring to the אתחלתא דגאולה crowd, they also fast on שבעה עשר בתמוז (I have more friends and family like that than you do, so I can vouch for that if you don’t think they do…) There are many מעלות in רוחניות and עבודת השם יתברך to living in Eretz Yisroel (for the right reasons), that have nothing to do with Zionism, ׳אתחלתא דגאולה׳, etc. There are also people who are referred to as ‘Religious Zionists’ who DON’T believe in the State (as opposed to יישוב ארץ ישראל itself) as ׳אתחלתא דגאולה׳. You probably haven’t heard of חרד״ל or חבקו״ק, nor have you visited the ‘Hilltops’… They aren’t big fans of guys like Bennett… (Certainly not of Lapid or anyone further left, who aren’t even ‘Zionists’ at all.)