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RightJew – ‘Eretz Yisroel’ and ‘Israel’ are two different things geographically Halachically and ideologically. I live in Eretz Yisroel, do you? I am not NK or even Satmar or anything close, as you can easily see from my other comments. That isn’t a סתירה to calling a spade a spade when necessary.
SomeJew – Cut the nonsense. The Sefer Chazon Ish was very carefully edited first by himself, and then checked for typos by a handpicked group of close Talmidim who had a living Mesorah of what their Rebbe said and meant. And they knew the context and nuances and yada yada. Especially when it came to such hot-button issues like this one. No way to weasel out of it. How did the Talmidim of the Chazon Ish understand their Rebbe’s שיטה? Don’t forget, you accused me of “am-aratzus”, not simply following a different שיטה than you do. After you knew already that there is indeed such a שיטה, which may well be MORE מוסכם להלכה. Especially when it comes to writing people out of Klal Yisroel altogether ר״ל. So you are poshut a liar, plain and simple.
mdd1 said – YYA, on a different note: there are reports about negotiations (between the Chareidi leadership and others) to pass the Chareidim draft law. So, what happened to the money that was sure to arrive from chutz la’Aretz which would allow the Chareidim to be independent?
Until now there were no ‘draft laws’? So they’ll fudge another draft law and the politicians will have some quiet until after the elections and then the Supreme Court will strike the law down again and then… So what? עולם כמנהגו נוהג. I have lived here for almost 30 years and it happens again and again and again. And there are always people (including some who wear kipot, with or without two-sided tape to keep it attached to their bald spot) who gloat about how THIS TIME will be different and soon Chareidi society will collapse and they’ll all come running to the IDF and yada yada… Not impressed. Talk to me 50 years from now. The Chareidim aren’t going away. The Chilonim are dying out of population collapse. The RZ for the most part will learn to be OK with the Chareidim (who they share more common ground with than they sometimes think) and those who won’t will go down the demographic sewer with the Chilonim at a slightly slower pace. Do you have a better vision for the future of the Secular Israelis? They don’t really have one themselves, so they avoid thinking about it…
SomeJew – I think you really need more help than I thought you did. You selectively choose certain maamorim and fly away with them to places no normative gadol (including Satmar) ever thought to go with them. 7,000 is around 10% (?) of Satmar? 90% of Satmar are also Goyim?! Do you understand where you are going with this and why you may seriously need help?
RightJew – I wonder how many of the “reviewers” on Amazon even read the book. It includes hundreds or pages of the Zionists’ own words, with all sources attributed. You can easily purchase most of the books quoted, and the others can be found in libraries, and check out the sources inside if you don’t believe the author. Are you afraid to do so?
Yankel Berel:
I never said that it was a given that הסכמת האומות would be מתיר anything, something the Maharal says explicitly that it doesn’t, however even לשיטתם of those who might say it does, it isn’t pashut at all who would need to be מסכים.
DaMoshe:
The letter of the Ohr Somayach is most probably a forgery ואכמ״ל. Even if it wasn’t, the legal status of the British Mandate wasn’t technically כיבוש in the normal sense. It came with an expiration date (May ’48) and a requirement to grant independence to the local population. There was also a lot of arm-twisting and actual terrorism being perpetrated against the British between the Balfour Declaration and ’48 by groups like Etzel and Lechi and sometimes also the Hagana. If persecution would be a reason to be מתיר the שבועות, so why wasn’t that triggered already at the time of the Churban itself with all the accompanying Roman brutality? It wasn’t, because Chazal say that Bar Koziva was punished for violating the Oaths 65 years AFTER the Churban.
Yankel Berel: you mention the chafets chayim and rav grozovsky
could you point to a specific place ?
Rav Reuven wrote an entire Kuntres called בעיות הזמן which I was actually quite shocked by, because his שיטות on Zionism are closer to Satmar than anything people usually associate with the “Yeshiva World” and a member of the Moetzes. The Sefer is available for download at HebrewBooks. The Chofetz Chaim is quoted by Rav Elchonon in Kovetz Maamarim, especially the newer two volume edition that includes letters and other additional material.
ZSK
In the event of a Halachic government in Eretz Yisroel (before or after Moshiach, the technical challenges would be basically the same), there לכאורה need not be a shutdown of the electric grid. Bnei Brak and Modiin Illit both already have citywide electric grids for Shabbos under Chareidi Halachic supervision (which serve as backup generators for the national grid during the week = win-win for all). I believe they use more automation (they are much newer than most of the national electric infrastructure) and non-Jewish Shabbos supervisors. Something along these lines could conceivably be implemented on a national level if it was a priority for the government, which it would be in a Halachic state.
Fire and emergency services are completely מותר on Shabbos לכל הדיעות.
Police could employ more non-Jewish officers (there already are a lot of them anyway). That would probably be sufficient for regular beat policing. Jewish commanding officers could be on call at the station in Shabbos mode to be available in the event of a more complex situation, and to call in additional (Jewish if need be for true Pikuach Nefesh scenarios) officers using Hatzalah style radios. Jewish police could be required to be present and prepared at the station to be on call if needed. All of this could be fine tuned by consultation between police experts and Poskim to some sort of system that would be acceptable to both.
The airports, seaports, radio and television would actually shut down completely for 24 hours like they do already on Yom Kippur.
The Kohanim would bring the Korban Tamid, Minchas Chavitin, Mussaf, Ketores, Lechem Hapanim, and light the Menorah. The Leviim will sing Mizmor Shir LeYom HaShabbos and Shiras Ha’azinu.
Everything else would be closed for Shabbos.
When the Sanhedrin declares Rosh Chodesh or Ibbur Shana, everyone’s Calendar App automatically updates. That would raise an interesting question whether Rosh Hashanah would still need to be two days. Moshiach will need to figure that one out…
The King’s Poisoned Wine
The Strategy:
Number the Bottles: Label the bottles from 0 to 999. Convert each decimal number to its 10-digit binary equivalent (e.g., 0 = 0000000000, 3 = 0000000011, 999 = 1111100111).
Assign Prisoners: Assign each of the 10 prisoners a single binary digit position (Prisoner 1 for the first digit, Prisoner 2 for the second, and so on, up to Prisoner 10 for the tenth).
Create Mixtures: For each bottle, create a mixture: if a bottle’s binary number has a ‘1’ in a specific position, add a drop of that bottle’s wine to the cup for the corresponding prisoner.
Example: Bottle #3 (0000000011) would contribute a drop to Prisoner 9 and Prisoner 10’s cups. Bottle #1 (0000000001) only contributes to Prisoner 10’s cup.
Administer Simultaneously: Give each prisoner their unique mixture to drink at the same time.Observe & Decode: After 24 hours, the prisoners who die reveal the poisoned bottle. The pattern of dead (1) and alive (0) prisoners forms a binary number. Convert this binary result back to decimal to find the poisoned bottle.
Why It Works: There are \(2^{10}=1024\) possible unique outcomes (combinations of dead/alive prisoners) for 10 prisoners, which is enough to uniquely identify one of the 1000 bottles (since 1024 > 1000). Each bottle’s unique 10-digit binary code directly maps to a distinct set of prisoners who will drink from it, creating a unique “fingerprint” for that bottle.
AAQ: Maybe Saul and Yoav not finishing off amelikites?
That was itself a sin, not merely bad strategy.
AAQ: Deborah chastising Barak (not Ehud or Hussein) for not going into the fight?
After being told to do so על פי נבואה.
AAQ: Implicitly, Shimshon and Yiftach are imperfect leaders leading the fight when proper leaders were afraid, maybe retired to beis midrash
Not even close. Shimshon was chosen by Hashem before even being born. By Yiftach it also says ותהי על יפתח רוח השם. They were ‘imperfect’ compared to – Moshe Rabbeinu and Shmuel HaNavi…
AAQ: Jews asking Shmuel to appoint a king, as they were not satisfied with weak leadership in front of enemies
Did you read the rest of the Perek?
AAQ: Plishtim capturing Aron, maybe because Eli’s sons were not good leaders.
No, because Eli’s sons did things they shouldn’t have done and that created a קטרוג on Klal Yisroel because it was allowed to go on.
AAQ: Apocrypha about Macabees not fighting on shabbat
??? So what? That also doesn’t make sense, and may be a forgery.
AAQ: Most importantly, I think, Jews most of the time did not think about submitting to the enemies when it was possible to fight, so praise to Yehoshua/David/Deborah etc for fighting shows that having army is ok.
They also brought Korbanos and were praised for doing so. Is it OK to bring Korbanos today?
Keep on trying if you want.
AnIsraeliYid – “Your crack about “political considerations” is also misguided. In most cases, it is world pressure that causes Israel to hold back from using full force. Unfortunately, paying at least some attention to this is necessary in today’s world, where Israel is dependent on the world for weaponry and raw materials for the weapons it manufactures itself. I agree that this is not optimal – but it’s necessary.”
Where do you see that in הלכות שבת? You hold BOTH אתחלתא דגאולה AND that it is OK to sacrifice hundreds of Jewish lives to pander to world opinion?! If this is Geulah and הלכות מלכים, then עד רדתה and don’t look back. If this is Galus and ad hoc as in הלכות שבת, THEN the rules of the game are completely different. In either scenario there is no היתר to sacrifice Jewish lives בוודאי because of a ספק that maybe the Goyim will then be happy. So your post and Israeli policy both make no sense either way.
The Gedolim usually DO explain themselves, but not on line or out loud. Whoever seriously wants to find out can easily do so if you know where and who to ask.
somejew – Do you hold that the Chazon Ish knew how to learn?
AAQ – My choice of chronology is based on the simple reality that back then many Maskilim had learned in Volozhin or other high level Yeshivos. They at least were raised Frum. Up to and including most of the founders of the State. Nowadays most secular Jews truly know almost nothing.
somejew – I deliberately didn’t go into the details, because whoever wants to debate will do so anyway. But even the RZ Rabbonim (at least the earlier ones) understood that they had to deal with this issue. Another very common mistake that you alluded to is people thinking that the Shevuah of the Yidden is conditioned on the Goyim keeping their Shevuah, which it isn’t. Among other reasons, because we didn’t swear to THEM, but to the Ribbono Shel Olam. The British also had no right to speak on behalf of the Arabs, something the Arabs still resent down to today. So the Balfour Declaration wasn’t מתיר anything. At any rate, even those who kvetched sevaras or maybe even forged letters, all held that they HAD to say SOMETHING about the Oaths. So they were in a better matzav than many ostensibly ‘Chareidi’ Yidden today.
HaLeiVi – Your last post hit the nail on the head 100% It is impossible to simply ignore a Gemara. A fact that didn’t escape the vast majority of Rabbonim on both sides of the debate on Zionism.
HaLeiVi – I do refer to almost all other RZ Rabbonim at least as ‘Rav’, but that one was seriously beyond the pale. But you do have a valid point.
somejew – The number mentioned is 7000, not 6000. The source is a Midrash quoted by Rebbe Avraham Azulai זי״ע author of חסד לאברהם and אור החמה. The Satmar Rebbe זי״ע did mention that.
You asked – “Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible? I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.” עד כאן דבריו
If you “have no issue” with that happening in the literal sense of the word, then don’t worry about it, you also won’t be there. Personally I don’t think I am in the top 7,000 of Klal Yisroel either. If you think you are, then you probably have other issues you need to do Teshuva for if you want to make it there alive. Note that even אם תמצי לומר that this Midrash no other source ever quoted is meant literally, it isn’t talking about who will go to עולם הבא, only who will survive the final חבלי משיח in עולם הזה. It also contradicts dozens of Pesukim and מאמרי חז״ל, aside from multiple other kashes.
Why would you have a הוה אמינא to base your entire השקפת החיים on this one (very novel and not poshut at all) source? You do know that the Divrei Yoel זי״ע himself did much chessed and tzedakah even with Jews who didn’t follow his Shittos, do you?
You said – “what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva)” עד כאן
You mixed up Pshat in the Gemora in Rosh Hashana לבלי חוק אפילו חוק אחד. That isn’t the standard for losing Olam Haba. That is the standard for entry to Gehennom, after which מבצבצין ועולין. By the way, learning Torah is a good way to avoid or reduce Gehennom, and it gives you a much more positive attitude in Olam Hazeh too.
I don’t understand why some people are so obsessed with anger and negativism. Why do you or ‘ujm’ care who will be in Olam Haba? Are you finished with yourselves? This has nothing to do with Zionism or the Medinah or Chuck Schumer. Hashem has His ways of bringing back whoever needs to come back, and getting rid of whoever needs getting rid of. יבוא בעל הכרם ויכלה קוציו. That has nothing to do with our job in this world.
ujm – “YYA: Your count of total Jews is way off base. Where did you pull that figure?”
From publicly available information culled from multiple sources, most of whom would not be inclined to inflate the number of Chareidim or even Jews in general. Please provide alternative numbers if you can.
ujm – “Firstly, you’re probably including Goyim who call themselves Jews. (Non-Orthodox and Zionist political conversions and their offspring for centuries; so-called “patrilineal” Jews and their offspring for generations; etc.)”
No. If you include those (i.e. ‘law of return’ “Jews”) the number goes up to 24 million.
ujm – “But that’s the smaller issue with your figure; you’re missing all the Jews who R”L shmaded to another religion and their offspring for millennia; all the Jews who R”L were born Jewish but considered themselves non-Jewish and their offspring for millennia; etc.”
Those are bona-fide תינוקות שנשבו in the literal sense. What do you do with the Rashi in Yeshaya who explicitly says Moshiach will bring them back? What about והביאו את כל אחיכם? What about איש לא נעדר? What about ובאו האובדים בארץ אשור והנידחים בארץ מצרים? What about וחשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נידח? What about ועמדו רגליו ביום ההוא? What about מוריד שאול ויעל? And more and more and more… Why the blood lust for sending the Ribbono Shel Olam’s children to Gehennom ר״ל? Just to make yourself feel better? If you really think Pshat in Sanhedrin is literally 1/300,000 Jews, do you think you and ‘qwerty’ will make the grade?
anon1m0us said – It reminds me of ancient Jews who instead of following halacha, started following the cool medrashim. They ended up on a cross.
Don’t know who or what you are talking about. The Three Oaths are a Gemara towards the end of Kesubos, not a Midrash. (They are also mentioned in the Midrash Shir Hashirim, but that is not the SOURCE of this subject.) There are quite a few Rishonim and Achronim who considered them to be binding. Hilchos Lashon Hara, among others, are not discussed in most of the major Halacha seforim of the Rishonim, except very briefly in the Rambam and Rabbeinu Yonah. Other than a few lines in Masches Arachin, and scattered מאמרי חז״ל elsewhere, most of the references to all forms of Issurei Dibbur are – Aggadita. Yet we know that Lashon Hara is is a very big deal because – it says so in the Aggadita… So the Chofetz Chaim went and collected all of the scattered Halachic references and made them into a systematic Sefer called Chofetz Chaim, and the Aggadita he called Shmiras Halashon. No one even tried to claim that he made up something יש מאין just because there was no such thing as a Sefer or even a Perek within a Sefer on הלכות לשון הרע until he came along. Aside from the Divrei Yoel, many other Poskim held the Oaths to be very serious and very real, including Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Brisker and his son Rav Velvel, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, Rav Eliyahu Henkin, and many more. Some of the early RZ Rabbonim discussed the issue in their works and tried to build a case to permit Zionism anyway, including Rav Kalisher and Rav Reines, but they didn’t write it off as “faulty understanding of the Torah”, something you consider yourself more qualified to judge than any of the above Rabbonim.
AAQ and ZSK – Davka the Rabbonim who signed against Goren, especially Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Elyashiv, were known to respect and have a close relationship with several prominent RZ Rabbonim. They opposed Goren because of actual things he did. There were also those within the RZ orbit who saw Goren as a ‘loose cannon’ who damaged their cause.
AAQ – If those Rabbonim would relate to ALL RZ Rabbonim as they did to Goren, then Occam’s Razor might be relevant. The reality doesn’t bear that out. On the other hand, the Razor would apply neatly to one person issuing two completely contradictory ‘psakim’, where the only צד השווה is his desire to pander to the Zionist powers that be, something he never bothered to hide or was even ashamed of.
ujm
Yes, there is a process of בירור. Yes, it says וברותי מכם המורדים והפושעים. Yes, the Erev Rav will disappear. But that could very well take place through the demographic and sociological בירור process without killing anyone.
Re. ujm and the demographics of Ma’aminim.
Based on all demographic studies, including those done by non-Jews (Pew institute) or secular Jews (including the Israeli government), the percentage of Shomrei Shabbos is approximately a quarter of the best estimate of the number of Halachic Jews by birth, and that percentage is expected to get much higher within a few decades due to the huge differential in birthrate and ‘retention rate’ (i.e., not intermarrying). The Chareidi slice of the pie is the fastest growing and the most retaining… (The average birthrate of Chareidim is double that of MO/RZ and more than triple that of Secular.) There are actually MORE Orthodox Jews now than ANY OTHER “DENOMINATION” except for “unaffiliated” who are anyway going lost because the few children they have usually aren’t Jewish… “Open Orthodoxy” is too small to even be counted as a distinct group. (They probably are counted as MO.) This is aside from the fact that in Israel a large portion of the not-fully-observant (and a majority of the Sephardim who are half of the Jewish population) self describe as believing in Hashem and the Torah and certainly wouldn’t be caught dead in a Reform/Conservative anything. (And they have more kids than the hard-core Chilonim… And they are far more likely to become BT…)
So don’t be so down. The Ribbono Shel Olam is moving things towards the true Geulah, may it be ברחמים גדולים and like we say on Shabbos Nachamu, (UNLIKE the 20% who made it to יציאת מצרים) may it be איש לא נעדר.
By the way, the Navi Yeshayah clearly says והביאו את כל אחיכם בית ישראל מכל הגוים וכו׳ which Rashi says refers to Jews who don’t even know they are Jewish altogether, and Moshiach will gather them too, so don’t be so quick to write off Neshamos (who לכל הפחות know they are Jewish) as a lost cause חס ושלום.
AAQ, RightJew, and friends –
There is an excellent book called “The Empty Wagon – Zionism’s journey from identity crisis to identity theft.” If you have the patience to go through 1390 pages and close to 3000 footnotes, with hundreds of citations from the writings of Zionist thinkers and leaders, you will get a much clearer picture of what secular Zionism was about then, what parts of it still exist today, how and why the RZ and Chareidim dealt with it the way they did, what the Zionists did and didn’t try to do, and to what extent they succeeded in their goals, among many other things that you are often confused about. It is very probable that you will interpret the facts differently than the author does, but you will at least know WHAT THE ZIONISTS SAID ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN GOALS IN THEIR OWN WORDS. All of the quotations include the name of the publication and the page number, if you want to fact check or context check. Reading this would probably change your perspective, if not your opinions themselves. I don’t have time to copy hundreds of pages and then debate the משמעות of each quote and each sugyah. If you are serious you can do the research.
ujm said – All can be the same non-believing kofer.
“Kofer” means “denier”. You have to know something in order to deny it. Most of the Maskilim and Zionists in the 5600s (1840-1939) fitted that definition. Most of the non-Frum today are nowhere close.
Yankel Berel – I’m aware of that שיטה. That being said, if we take the most basic definition of גוף נקי, then applying it to healthy people for two minutes isn’t too hard. Especially if the other side of the equation is leaving the person as a קרקפתא דלא מנח תפילין according to all שיטות.
ZSK said – Re your other two posts: Seriously? Are we really going to heresy accusations?
Yes indeed. Not accusing the גברא as a whole ad hominem, but calling out a seriously off-base statement that is in fact kefirah.
Both of us say twice every day in Krias Shma, as well as in numerous other places in Davening, as well as throughout Chumash, Navi, and Chazal, that Jewish Galus and suffering including Jews being killed (ואבדתם מהרה means being killed, not just Galus, according to the Yerushalmi in Brachos) is BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, not because we didn’t have an army (which we did have at the time of the Churban). Not believing that is real Kefirah. I’m sure you learned Sefer Melachim, and probably also Yirmiyahu and even Divrei Hayamim. Where does it say in any of those sources that the Churban Bayis Rishon was because Tzidkiyahu’s army was inadequate? You do believe שכל דברי נביאים אמת, do you not? Where is there ANY Torah source of any kind that faults the Jewish people or blames their suffering on their failure to have an army? There isn’t any. The (large subgroup but not all) RZ who speak that way are just copy-pasting Goyish kefirah ideas into a pseudo-Jewish context to ape the secular Zionists they hold dear. Nothing else.
ZSK – WRT Rabbi Goren’s contradictory ‘psakim’. Occam’s Razor makes more sense than hiding behind “I would need to read the entire transcript” with no intention to actually do so. Something that the Rabbonim who opposed him already did, I did (the Langer case), and you also could easily do if you wanted.
An Israeli Yid
As another Eretz Yisroel Yid, I am well aware of the demographics and society of Israel, and that Zionism today isn’t what it used to be. Something I have stated here many times. However, the סעיף in Hilchos Shabbos is NOT about WHO has an obligation to “defend ones fellow Jews” (at any rate something the IDF sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t, depending on political considerations), nor about whether such an obligation, if it exists nowadays altogether, outweighs Gilui Arayos and GRATUITOUS Chilul Shabbos, among other issues.
ujm said – Unfortunately 98% of Jews don’t believe in the Torah.
What in the world are you talking about?! There are approximately 15-16 million Jews worldwide. Of which 3-4 million are Shomer Shabbos. Of the Shomer Shabbos approximately two thirds are Chareidim. Two percent of 15 million is 300,000. There are more Satmar Chassidim plus Eidah Chareidis etc. Yidden than that!
ujm – NAME one such Posek.
An Israeli Yid said – What I have yet to see from them, though, is an explanation as to WHY, exactly, this particular Se’if in the Shulchan Aruch does not apply to the present situation.
No mention is made in the סעיף in question of the necessity or even permissibility of forming a standing army בזמן הזה. The subject matter is הלכות שבת ONLY. If there is a real tactical need to go after hostile invaders on Shabbos, so it is מותר for the ad hoc vigilante committee to go get the pitchforks or the spears or the M-16s and chase after them. No one argues with that. Serving in the IDF involves multiple serious issues that the secular authorities have repeatedly refused to address, despite promising to do so, so the Gedolim called cut. They don’t need to explain it to you. Those who listen to them understand the core issues already, and they have privately explained many things off the record.
On more than one occasion I have seen caricatures of Chareidim in Chiloni publications that look exactly like Der Sturmer with Hebrew captions. In Germany it took only six and a half years of propaganda to turn the world’s most sophisticated and cultured society into mass murderers. In Israel this level of propaganda has been going on for 77 years and we can still walk around as Chareidim without being killed. פוק חזי מה בין פושעי ישראל לנביאי אומות העולם
If you believe in Chazal that גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו, then which is worse, physically killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them to Gan Eden as קדושים, or spiritually killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them elsewhere? (Plus literally killing over 2,000,000 Jewish babies.)
AAQ said – My theory is that this is a history-driven sociological trap: leadership established separate communities (Rambam’s deserts in the words of Chazon Ish), had to use separatist ideology to protect them (and this worked well both in Israel and US), and now these ideologies took over the crowds beyond the temporary measures they were, and leadership is unable to change them, in part because the protection is based on “we are right, and they are always evil”, but also because they can’t go against the load crowds. Emes is the biggest loss of this complex process.
עד כאן דבריו.You are rambling off too much nonsense to break down one by one. Let’s focus on the core issue. Secular Zionism was a highly organized and targeted campaign to destroy Judaism and replace it with a secular national identity. Period. Everything else, including the IDF, was a היכא תמצא to accomplish that. In other words, the State in general, and the IDF in particular, are one big social engineering project to create a new Jewish identity. This was never a secret. Not participating in that project is not some special “separatist ideology” or social phenomenon, it’s basic Judaism 101. That was even before ‘gender integration’ became ubiquitous in all parts of the IDF. Why in the world do you think the Rabbonim should “go against the crowds” and send the boys to Kefirah and Gilui Arayos galore in the name of – “Emes”?! (Did you mean to say ’emesis’?) What will be with the IDF and who will fight the Arabs is a red herring. The Chilonim don’t have a long term solution to Israel’s problems any more than the Chareidim do. Our job is to keep the Torah and Mitzvos. Sorry to disappoint you, but that does not include having an army during Galus. If truly Torah observant Jews end up becoming a majority in Israel, there will be many issues to deal with. When we get there, Gedolei Yisroel will deal with it. They aren’t afraid of “the crowds”. They are afraid of איסורי כרת וסקילה and more, which will have to be cleaned out of the IDF altogether. For now, it’s just regular Galus survival as usual under Jewish Paritzim.
RightJew said – The halacha cited above clearly refers to non-Jews who besiege a Jewish city, in which case halacha requires military self-defense against those non-Jews, even on Shabbat.
The Halacha in question is in Hilchos Shabbos. It PERMITS defensive combat on Shabbos on an ad-hoc basis under certain conditions. It says NOTHING about the necessity or even permissibility of establishing an organized army בזמן הזה. This is more relevant to Shomrim than to the IDF.
ZSK, with regard to Rabbi Goren. How do you reconcile his more famous ‘psak’ on the Langer mamzerim, with his less famous ‘psak’ to accept the ‘conversion’ of the children of Mary Ben Gurion (the shiksa daughter-in-law of… Google it.) The two phony ‘psakim’ are diametrically תרתי דסתרי. He was מתיר the mamzerim by retroactively rejecting the conversion of their father because – he wasn’t Mitzvah observant and ‘probably’ never had any intention to be. He was also מתיר Ben Gurion’s shratzim einiklach – who also weren’t Mitzvah observant and ‘definitely’ had no intention to be… You don’t have to be Satmar to see the problem here…
AAQ asked – Is the concern that the person does not care what he is doing or whether he is Jewish?
Well, the shliach would typically ask “Are you Jewish?”. If it’s a kid, he might ask if he’s 13. (I guess if the character in question isn’t “binary” the shliach might have to ask ‘them’ for ‘their’ ‘pronouns’…) You are right that unfortunately some people think they are Jewish but they really aren’t. Sometimes people like that say they are “half Jewish”, to which the shliach would ask “which half?”.
Once we have determined within reason that the guy approaching the shliach is in fact a guy, not a Goy, and has reached the age of ג״י, then we are left with the issue of מצוות צריכות כוונה, and what degree of כוונה that means. When it comes to a מצוה דאורייתא that doesn’t involve doing something a person would do anyway (possibly as opposed to something done completely as a מתעסק such as eating matzah or even Korban Pesach just because he’s hungry), then בפשטות simply doing the act is ‘caring’ enough, unless one has deliberate negative כוונה NOT to do the מצוה, which in this context makes no sense because if that were so he would probably just walk away.
ujm said – Comparing it to someone who refuses to put on Tefillin even when approached, doesn’t make it a Mitzvah for someone who doesn’t refuse. Nor does it necessarily demonstrate that he believes on some level.
I don’t understand your reasoning. I didn’t compare the two. The fact that many refuse to put on Tefillin proves that they don’t feel a need to ‘humor’ a stranger (who they may also see as strange). That would tend to indicate (even though it isn’t perfect proof it is a רגליים לדבר) that those who DO put on Tefillin are not simply ‘humoring’ the Chabadnik. Especially if he then proceeds to say קבלת עול מלכות שמים, which especially if he knows לשון הקודש is literally accepting Emunah in Hashem.
ujm further said – Given you acknowledge the view I’m sharing is a valid shitta by various Poskim, is your hypothetical rhetorical questions being made to them?
If you mean the Hatzolah question, then yes. Absolutely. My question is not hypothetical or rhetorical at all. Here in Eretz Yisroel it is מעשים בכל יום on the literal and practical level, both during the week and on Shabbos. I challenge you to find me ANY living Posek ANYWHERE, including Satmar, Hisachdus, Eidah, Neturei Karta, whatever, who will give you a היתר to stand there and watch a (regular contemporary non-Frum) Yid die רחמנא ליצלן because he is a “Kofer”. In a real למעשה scenario. Even if you would have to be מחלל שבת. Please try to prove me wrong if you can.
ujm – Let’s say it’s a מחלוקת הפוסקים, especially since it IS… So what? So he did a מצוה not לכל הדיעות. You hold that’s no good, fine, don’t do it yourself. Or, come up with a better way to reach Yidden. Someone has to start somewhere. Sitting and criticizing won’t bring back Hashem’s children.
AAQ said – Still, focusing on such a psak focuses on (misses?) the big picture of what Chabad shluchim achieve. I am not suggesting mitzva b’yadei avera, but just fair appreciation. Especially when criticism comes from people who did not bother to do anything themselves…
I think we agree, I was just pointing out the technical reason why this PARTICULAR mitzvah campaign generated the most controversy.
Brilliant RightJew. Big chiddush.
News flash. Gedolei Yisroel also know how to read Shulchan Aruch. They also know some more things about the Torah and, lehavdil, about what goes on in the IDF.
The NYPD and US Army also protect many Jews. It seems your interest in the IDF is not purely from a practical standpoint.
AAQ said – Maseches Taanis describes a doctor who was visited by yeshiva shel maaleh more often than Abaye and Rava (despite his bloodletting methods were not the most effective ones – surely a fact known b’shmayim!). I would presume many would like to follow in his steps.
Nice. The Gemara there (24b) asks what was so special about Abba Umna, and one of the things listed is him going to great lengths to avoid any unnecessary exposure of female patients. So to your mind “following in his steps” would mean joining the IDF, because there they are very careful about tzniyus… Or becoming a modern doctor, most of whom are very machmir in tzniyus… He wasn’t a Tzaddik BECAUSE he was a doctor. DESPITE being a doctor, which exposes one to certain additional nisyonos, he STILL managed to be a Tzaddik. Like they say here יחי ההבדל הקטן…
ZSK said – For 2,000 years, Jewish children were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army.
That statement is kefirah. Leaving aside discussions of hishtadlus with regard to individuals, the Jewish nation as a whole is subject only to Divine Hashgacha and nothing else. At the time of the Churban, and afterwards at the time of the Bar Koziva revolt, they had an army, but it didn’t help because Hashem didn’t want it to. Whether making an army is permitted altogether in Galus (which we still are in) is directly connected to the sugya of the Three Oaths, which you acknowledged is at least “a legitimate Halachic discussion”. By the way, the Russians had a very strong army (Cossacks you said?), and they lost 22,000,000(!) people in WWII, more than the entire Jewish people worldwide.
ZSK said – To imply that there is no difference between a Jew dying as a helpless victim of a Cossack and a Jew dying as a soldier defending EY is an insult to the Kedoshim.
What difference is there that makes a difference Jewishly? Because the soldier died with ‘honor’? Sorry to burst your bubble, but that doesn’t come from Judaism. What about the ‘helpless victims’ of the עשרה הרוגי מלכות or all the real קדושים of the generations? The ones the word ‘Kedoshim’ was meant to describe? And what about a non-Jewish soldier who dies for his country? Is he a ‘Kadosh’ according to your religion?
I think anyone honest would have to admit that saying that the IEC is primarily concerned with producing electricity for Pikuach Nefesh is not a strong sevara… Aside from the fact that all real Pikuach Nefesh places (hospitals etc.) have backup electric systems… What do you think they do when there’s a blackout?
WRT electricity, police, etc. on Shabbos in Israel.
If the State truly cared about Shabbos, many things could be done by non-Jews. There are PLENTY (some would say too many) of non-Jewish police officers in Israel. Same for the electric company. Many utilities have long since been automated to a great extent, as has been pointed out. A little creative ingenuity (that Israel so prides itself on) and a few non-Jewish Shabbos supervisors, and they could be good to go Halachically IF THEY CARED ENOUGH. There is a tendency among RZ Rabbis to immediately invoke the ‘But how will the Heiliger State manage if we keep Shabbos/Shemittah/Tzniyus/etc. without any shtick?’ clause. Actually, the biggest Shabbos challenges are factories that use extreme high-temperature furnaces (Phoenicia Glass and the Haifa oil refinery being the most infamous) that take much time to warm up and to cool down (and therefore almost never shut down). There are actually Halachically and technically viable suggestions that have been made how to deal with those issues, based on technology that has been used in other places, but the management isn’t interested.