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Gadolhadorah and AAQ – There is something called Siyata Dishmaya that a Tzelem Elokim acting in good faith can be worthy of attaining, and a computer algorithm perhaps not so. Hashem is still the מזווג זווגים. How many people do you know whose shidduch would never have made it past the AI Bot? IMHO, a lot of the difficulties in shidduchim today are because people are afraid to think even slightly out of the box. An AI Shadchan Bot, would essentially be based on matching boxes, not thinking outside of them.
AAQ – The Midrash doesn’t say how she made her decisions. ShadchanBot TM would presumably try to line up ‘checklists’ as much as possible. That may sometimes work, and sometimes not. There is a lot to delve into this Midrash, because lemaaseh most shidduchim not made by Neviim usually don’t involve direct input from the Ribbono Shel Olam… So what was Rabbi Yossi really saying? The matron presumably wasn’t stupid either, so what was her hava amina and what was her maskona? I believe that the point of the Midrash is that when a person believes and understands that Hashem is the real Shadchan, then he merits a Siyata Dishmaya, which someone with the attitude of the matron would not have. Someone relying on a computer program instead of the Ribbono Shel Olam is just a more technologically sophisticated ‘matronita’.
AAQ – Actually there is a lot to learn from the sad story of Saul Lieberman. About what happens when very smart people (who may think they are smarter than the Gedolei Hador, and in his case could credibly back up such a claim with actual geonus to some extent) come up with very clever ideas of how to save Klal Yisroel by integrating and compromising… What became of that?
ujm – When HaRav Amram Blau was imprisoned in 1953 for protesting Chillul Shabbos, the Chazon Ish came to visit him…
There is a crucial point that is being ignored here, and which makes this whole 117 post debate completely irrelevant. Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל was a big kanoi, but his shittah was not in sync with Satmar. NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues. The opposition to the State was because of all the Rishus the State did, and he of course held that voting or participation in any way was considered associating with Reshaim, NOT NECESSARILY because of the ‘Shevuos’. This was so much so, that a later leader of the post-R’ Amram NK said openly that “WE NEVER FORGAVE HIM FOR MIXING OTHER ISSUES INTO THE KANAUS” = for NOT emphasizing the Satmar shittah (that he didn’t really hold of, at least for the first few decades of his activity.)
Fast forward – The ‘Modern’ NK post 1960 has been completely taken oven by the Satmar ideology in THEORY, WITHOUT the limits the Divrei Yoel imposed IN PRACTICE = not demonstrating with Goyim, etc. You will NEVER see them protesting Chilul Shabbos, pritzus, or ANYTHING OTHER THAN the EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, not any particular mehalech the State should or shouldn’t do. (מה שאין כן real Satmar do protest those issues, and even their demonstrations in Manhattan etc. are ISSUE oriented, e.g. for the draft gezeros etc.) The PLO or the Iranians (and some of the NK themselves…) don’t care about chilul Shabbos. This doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל, and not much to do with Satmar either for that matter. Certainly zero shaychus whatsoever with the Steipler or the Chazon Ish.
KGN and AAQ – The PM isn’t the problem, this is 100% the SC and company.
ujm – I’m not comparing the two, but rather making a broader point. Saul Lieberman was also a so-called “talmid chochom”. Yet Mr. Lieberman was an apikorus. Being very book smart (in Jewish holy books) doesn’t mean much in some cases.
Are you sure he was? From what I understand, he personally was fully Orthodox his entire life, but he thought he could keep the Conservative movement close to Mitzvah observance. That project obviously failed.
ujm – In truth, Shabbos itself is now in prison.
Shabbos in prison, not Iran in prison. Stop dragging the name of Rav Amram זצ״ל through the mud of the phony NK2025.
As was suggested several years ago, just allow an AI Chatbot to review all the pending shidduch resumes and match them electronically and eliminate the useless intermediaries.
Cool idea. That would probably end up like the story of Rabbi Yossi ben Chalafta and the Roman matron…
AAQ – I think R Hirsh means that Yitzhak needed to observe people who think differently, not just those who were already talmidei Avraham.
The thousands of yokels who walked in the door for the free food were not yet “Talmidei Avraham”, and most probably didn’t end up ‘going all the way’. Probably more like a Chabad House, and less like a Yeshivah.
AAQ – De facto Yitchok Avinu saw plenty of the surrounding population in the home of Avraham, and how Avraham interacted with them. That is still different from going out to learn about them, which according tho Chazal is not a good idea.
AAQ – thanks, for the explanation. So, put forward legislation that changes that and makes such units possible. And if it passes, follow up on that. If it does not, the other Israelis will see that you at least tried.
Dear Reb AAQ – as Yankel Berel and I (and a few others) have tried to explain to you many times, legislation has been passed repeatedly over the last 20 years by the democratically elected government. The problem is that the non-democratic Supreme Court (lately including the AG who acts on behalf of them instead of her legal boss = the government) continuously strikes down any and every attempt to compromise. This is done mostly by forbidding any separation of genders as discriminatory. This emboldens the non-democratic IDF leadership to fail to enforce any existing programs even those that haven’t been struck down yet, and also feminist groups to file complaints against any kind of tzniyus agreements with the Chareidi tzibur. (This also hurts women in the IDF themselves in many ways, but Progressives never care about stuff like that.) In other words THE SC DOESN’T WANT THERE TO BE A COMPROMISE, they want blood, and they are the real overlords of the powerless government.
AAQ – If someone says, like it seems you do, that he sees some emes in the RJBS position at the time, but things changed now, I am interested in the discussion. This heuristics, unfortunately, saved me a lot of time.
That RJBS was a Talmid Chacham is beyond doubt. To say he was the preeminent Daas Torah to measure everyone else against is something else altogether.
AAQ – Those who managed to sneak out of the Nazi occupied zone could not and did not do so by train, so the “true story” is a moshol at best.
somejew – “pushing someone away from Torah” is not the same as what you wrote: “So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching”. The “Torah” of NK is rejected by 99.99% of Orthodox Jewry. Stop playing bait and switch word games.
anonymous Jew and qwerty – To the best of my knowledge, no one ever attempted to claim that in today’s matzav we should shut down the IDF entirely and all go learn. (Although in the time of Chizkiyahu Hamelech that was actually done in real life and it worked to defeat Sancheriv. Why Dovid Hamelech didn’t rely on that and Chizkiyahu did is discussed by the meforshim.) It also says בפירוש that מי גרם עומדות היו רגלנו במלחמה שערייך ירושלים שהיו עוסקים בהם בתורה. The real problem with the IDF is the pritzus, Progressive ideology, and officers who have an agenda to ‘convert’ their soldiers to OTD. Dovid Hamelech’s army had no girls, no chilonim (or sinners of any kind), no unmarried bochurim, no Leviim or Kohanim, etc. Such an army would in fact be a mitzvah to join, if we could even make it in…
AJ – But you can’t maintain that Torah study protects absolutely. Far too many people have died over the millenia.
Torah protecting is not a mechanistic formula that means no one ever dies. To repeat what I posted before, and you ignored in the name of “sechel”:
Wow, you are so brilliant, you discovered an ingenious philosophical argument that no one ever thought of before: Why do bad things happen to good people? Do you also deny that Mitzvos protect, or that Teshuva Tefillah and Tzedaka protect? That Hashem’s Covenant with the Avos protects? Do you deny Hashem’s Hashgacha altogether?
So much has already been written on this subject throughout the generations, and you would be well advised to learn more before reinventing the wheel. Suffice it to say that after all the pogroms, blood libels, etc., you are still alive and kvetching. So Someone saved your ancestors through the generations in the merit of ‘something’. Think about it…
Lakewhut – The same plan we had until now – שבכל דור ודור עומדיים עלינו לכלותינו והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם.
Whether Mamdani is in fact the “most antisemitic mayor in US history” is by no means certain. He won’t send out “his goons” to harass Jews. The 90% of the iceberg beneath the surface is the growing Muslim population in NYC who helped elect this creep, and now feel emboldened. Whenever I visit, for years already, you see them everywhere. That and “intersectionality” automatically connecting everyone who isn’t White or Jewish to every grievance known to mankind, especially against Whites and Jews.
AAQ – According to your ‘logic’, instead of going for three years to the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever, Yitzchok should have enlisted for three years of service in Avimelech’s army…
AAQ – Excuse me, I started reading straight from the ‘drash’ and skipped the first line. Then I noticed that this is yet ANOTHER dig about Chareidim serving in the IDF. Even אם תמצי לומר that there is something to be gained from exposure to outside ideas (something by no means מוסכם לכל הדעות, and even in the “Yekkish” context was seen as a הוראת שעה and not לכתחילה), so you think the way to do that is to conscript teenagers to a 24/7 forcible שעבוד to all-powerful Chiloni (often OTD for good measure) commanding officers with a hostile agenda? That doesn’t even jive with the (contrived) ‘drash’ you quote, let alone with any normative concept of Torah Chinuch.
Rashi explains why Avraham and Sarah moved, because there was no longer traffic in that area (to invite guests and teach them about Hashem) after Sodom was destroyed. Avraham was constantly interacting with all kinds of pagan wayfarers who he hosted and fed and taught about the true God of the Universe. Yitzchok grew up in the ultimate Kiruv house, he had no need to go anywhere to see the local yokels, they were right there all the time. On the other hand, Sarah was adamant about kicking out Yishmael so he wouldn’t be a bad influence on Yitzchok, and Hashem agreed with her. So there are in fact multiple layers of chinuch decision making and strategy going on in last week’s parsha, but the “vort” about going out to shpatzir in – Gaza – seems off the mark. In fact, we find at least two examples where Chazal clearly recommended AGAINST such a mehalech. One by ותצא דינה, and one by וישב העם בשיטים that the Midrash interprets as a lashon of שטו העם or ‘strolling around’. We also find that Yosef made sure to settle his brothers and their families in Goshen, far from the center of Egypt, to keep them AWAY from the locals as much as possible. When Bnei Yisroel entered the Land, there were also multiple ציוויים to eliminate the locals – so that they may not lead you astray… In other words, stay away from bad guys, period. The “vort” sounds more like an anachronistic projection of modern German style hashkafa than an actual pshat in what was going on then.
AAQ – why baloney? please share your experience with that
I wasn’t there personally, the Chareidi tzibbur “been there done that”… There was such a program, which started out separate, and sure enough ended up with problems. The key is that the SC paskened that any type of gender segregation in the IDF is automatically illegal, and there is a dedicated officer (YoHaLaM) with a department and staff etc. specifically to enforce this (and other progressive #$%!).
AAQ – Can anyone help find the source?
The only Gemara I can think of that is even remotely close is the story in Maseches Taanis of Rabbi Chiyya and his sons who led a taanis-atzeres tefillah, and when they said משיב הרוח ומוריד הגשם the wind and rain immediately came, and Eliyahu Hanavi had to stop them before they could get to מחיה המתים. If it was so easy to bring Moshiach in one shot then someone would have done it already. (Even then, they were stopped.)
AAQ – was there a general statement signed by everyone there? Maybe I missed. And I am asking questions about something I have only 2nd hand information, no need to be hostile.
There was a general statement read publicly at the conclusion of the Atzeres, summarizing the united position on the issues. You missed it. Again.
The mere fact that three very different groups of Gedolim, each one itself comprised of different shittos, ALL TOGETHER AS ONE agreed to set aside their differences ON OTHER ISSUES, and focus on this issue THAT THEY ALL AGREE ON, itself should indicate that YES, THEY REALLY MEAN IT. ALL OF THEM.
Maybe you should get some first hand information, a little goes a long way.
his “drash” was obviously tongue-in-cheek… but the gemora reference had to be genuine…
So you’re quoting a joke, by a colorful and insightful person who did a lot of good things, but he wasn’t generally considered to be a Gadol, against several dozen leaders of thousands each. Um, OK.
AAQ – I use benefit of hindsight, as you mention, to analyze machlokets of 100 to 50 years ago – close enough to be relevant but far enough to provide hindsight.
There are many conclusions from that, including one that R Soloveitchik shitah has a lot to offer. Maybe not to everyone, but a legitimate Torah-based view.What relevance does any of this have to the present situation? The IDF itself was radically different 50 years ago.
Nowadays especially, how does being a “Harvard Law Professor” qualify someone to even have normal human seichel, let alone to understand the Tachlis of what we are doing in this world?
Alan Dershowitz spend decades running away from his Yiddishkeit, to no avail. So of course it hurts him that the Goyim have double standards. Why not draw the conclusion that where you are isn’t where you belong?
SQUARE_ROOT (quoting someone) – The Jews devised, four centuries before [the founder of a religion],
a legal system based on the dignity of man
and individual equality before the law,Hashem gave us, over a thousand years before [the founder of a religion], a legal system which included the concepts of the dignity of man
and individual equality before the law.Fixed it for you.
Without getting into (the separate issue of) who is worthy of being quoted, many of the quotes you bring from Jewish celebrities kvetching about unfair standards etc. are factually true, but they miss the point. Antisemitism is not due to a lack of understanding or misinformation on the part of the Goyim, and it cannot be remedied by ‘hasbarah’ and PR campaigns. It is something Hashem built into the Bris Bein Habesarim when He chose us as the Am Hanivchar. Antisemitism is a safety net to keep us from going lost among the nations and forgetting who we are. If the Jew doesn’t make Kiddush, the Goy makes Havdalah… Why expect anything else? Why waste energy complaining? The Goyim will never accept us, better we should return to Hashem and His Torah.
Even in a case where there are two fully legitimate Torah shittos, and someone tries to convince people to follow one as opposed to the other, that would not be מסית ומדיח by any stretch.
somejew – So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to [reject the Torah NK is teaching] and/or {push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”,} that would also be mu”m.
You are mixing two completely different things into one sentence. Pushing Jews towards false religions (or atheism/kefirah) IS the dictionary definition of “meisis”. Wanting that Jews should reject the “Torah” NK is teaching (when that “Torah” includes collaborating with Iran and Hamas and runs against the Torah of 100% of the Gedolei Hador, including all mainstream Satmar and friends) is NOT “meisis”. The key is what does Hashem want, not what do you want.
AAQ – Even an honest secular Israeli (there are quite a few) would laugh at some of your suggestions.
Evalemoshavlo – You seem to forget that almost all Jews killed worldwide in the last 80 years have been killed either in Israel or because of Israel?
When your leaders lose their minds and see you as an extension of the state of Israel (?!) , it wont help to convince them otherwise. It is a sure call to scram!!
And go to – the State of Israel? And there they can’t kill us ר״ל?
על פי דרך הטבע what you are saying is pure nonsense. Rounding up all the Jews to a “concentrated location” to make the Final Solution easier. The Goyim aren’t going to stop hating us. The Brisker Rov said in ’48 that he has a kashe on BG ימ״שׁ. How did BG push so hard for an independent state and departure of all British troops, when he knew that על פי דרך הטבע the Arabs were far stronger. How could he BG be סומך על הנס without believing in nissim? אלא מאי, BG ימ״ש was stam a mufkar who didn’t care how many Jewish lives he endangered as long as he achieved his goals – or bust.
The only thing protecting us, anywhere, is Hashem’s bris with Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov, and we try our best to be מעורר רחמי שמים through Torah and Mitvos, Teshuvah Tefillah and Tzedaka. If moving to Eretz Yisroel will bring you closer to Hashem and His Torah, then wonderful. If not, then shelter in location and do Teshuvah.
anonymous jew – Wow, you are so brilliant, you discovered an ingenious philosophical argument that no one ever thought of before: Why do bad things happen to good people? Do you also deny that Mitzvos protect, or that Teshuva Tefillah and Tzedaka protect? That Hashem’s Covenant with the Avos protects? Do you deny Hashem’s Hashgacha altogether?
So much has already been written on this subject throughout the generations, and you would be well advised to learn more before reinventing the wheel. Suffice it to say that after all the pogroms, blood libels, etc., you are still alive and kvetching. So Someone saved your ancestors through the generations in the merit of ‘something’. Think about it…
AAQ – I am not sure why you are not thanking me for the suggestion to form a cybersecurity unit and not following up with it. This suggestion is exactly to minimize the problems you are talking about. Such a unit will not have to deal with pritzus or anything else…
Been there, done that, bunch of baloney… They had some cool code name for it though…
AAQ – The point here is that Gemora seemingly says that if all gedolim daven together – Moschiach will come.
Where?
AAQ – So, anyone can support or disprove this suggestion that there was no general agreement and therefore focus was on tehilim rather than a keynote speech.
No agreement on what exactly? Nah, those Gedolim don’t REALLY mean it… Stop playing stupid.
AAQ – And I am asking how does achdus feel when you know that this is a political event that is highly offensive to the rest of klal Yisroel.
Achdus is relevant between people who keep the rest of the Torah = עמיתך. There is no chiyuv of achdus with Chilonim, certainly not at the expense of any iota of שמירת המצוות. This is separate from caring about them, helping them ברוחניות ובגשמיות, and even loving them as בני אברהם יצחק ויעקב. If they like us too much that itself is worrisome.