Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
qwerty613 – I, for one, care more about every Jew than any Lubavicher, because I’m not only interested in their Olam Hazeh but also their Olam Habo.
So go open up a “Qwerty House” in Thailand or India, and start helping lost Jews with their Olam Hazeh and Olam Habo. Doing that is so much easier than tirelessly commenting online with mesirus nefesh to save Jewish Neshamos like you do…
Don’t worry, I’m not interested in wasting time debating you, but your comment was just so funny that I had to laugh.
Non Political – I don’t know. My guess, which I have mentioned before, is that if and when there will be a genuine operational need for Chareidim, for practical reasons, not for ideological reasons, then the IDF brass will have no choice but to sincerely engage with the Chareidim on terms acceptable to a majority of Gedolei Yisroel. In order for that to be possible, it will be necessary to break the stranglehold of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto runs Israel. Hopefully the latter will precede the former, or even better the Geulah Hasheleimah will precede both.
ZSK – Going off topic here, but necessary to mention:
Nobody “prays to Sefiros” ח״ו and no sane person who isn’t a Shabbetai Tzvi cultist perverts the words of the Zohar the way you did. Seeing as you repeatedly reference Rav Kook זצ״ל, you probably know that in his time there was a Yemeni Rav who convinced himself that he knew better than all of Klal Yisroel and was חולק on the Zohar, mainly using your purported arguments, and a Sefer was written to counter his arguments with a lengthy Haskamah and introduction by – Rav Kook בכבודו ובעצמו – explaining why that Rav (and you) are wrong. You claim to have read Rav Kook, and I have no reason to doubt that, so you probably are aware of his fondness for Zohar and Kabbalah. What the Zohar really means is way beyond the scope of “The Coffee Room”, but if you want you can learn the following Sefarim:
ספר אילימה רבתי and שיעור קומה of the Ramak.
All of the כתבי האריז״ל. (Read carefully the Hakdamah of R’ Chaim Vital.)
The works of Ramchal, especially קל״ח פתחי חכמה. He also wrote an entire Sefer called קנאת ה׳ צבאות specifically debunking the kefirah of Shabbetai Tzvi ימ״ש and explaining correct pshat in the Zohar in many of the places they distorted.
Sephardic: דעת ותבונה of the Ben Ish Chai, especially his long Hakdamah, is an excellent source. There is also a lesser known Sefer called אמונת חכמים written in Italy about 300 years ago by R’ Aviad Sar Shalom Basila, which deals entirely with the issues you raised.
Litvish: Biur HaGra on ספרא דצניעותא, as well as נפש החיים of R’ Chaim of Volozhin. פתחי שערים of R’ Yitzchok Isaac Chaver, talmid of R’ Chaim Volozhiner.
Chassidish: שערי היחוד והאמונה by R’ Aharon of Shtrasheleh, יסוד האמונה by R’ Boruch Kossover, and of course the many works of the בעל התניא. Try also נתיב מצוותיך of R’ Isaac of Komarno. The works of Rebbe Nachman of Breslev, and especially ליקוטי הלכות of his talmid R’ Nosson, are very helpful.
There are even explicitly RZ sefarim by contemporary authors written on this subject too, if you want…
If you think that ONLY you are the REAL מאמין, and ALL of these גדולי עולם were even POSSIBLY kofrim ח״ו, then you have a bigger problem than I can help you with.
ujm – I could ask you for the date of the letter you repeatedly quote, which for some reason is missing… But it isn’t necessary to even go there. Just go ask the living talmidim of the Steipler what he held about demonstrating with the PLO… For that matter, go ask the living talmidim of the Divrei Yoel what HE held about demonstrating with Palestinians… What is the point of your games?
ZSK – How did you get to Vizhnitz being anti-Zionist (more than regular Chareidim)? They have a representative in the Knesset! Historically, the relationship between Chassidus and Zionism has varied greatly from one Chassidus to another. There are also many (and growing) RZ who embrace Chassidus in different ways. Overall, I would say that RZ have a better relationship with Chassidus than with the “Lithuanian” Yeshiva World.
AAQ – Someone asked a gut shailoh on the front page – when it comes to missiles and hostages, some say – learning protects, no hishtadlus is required. Why not apply same logic to a threat of losing funding or army recruitment?
No one ever said that we are holding at a level where “hishtadlus” is not required. However, “hishtadlus” doesn’t override the many issurim involved in participating in the IDF. Even Pikuach Nefesh doesn’t override Gilui Arayos. In a situation where the IDF has an agenda to deliberately be מכשיל Chareidi soldiers in Chilul Shabbos and other issurim, then Pikuach Nefesh doesn’t override that either. That is the actual point of conflict here, not whether “hishtadlus” is necessary. Everyone involved here in Israel, on both sides of the fence, understands that. It’s just that the Chareidim can’t say out loud that they won’t serve altogether, and the Left can’t say out loud that they want to make Chareidim go OTD, so both sides use code words and dog whistles.
AAQ – I am not a Navi either, and we all hope to Hashem to protect us as only He can, which is the real bottom line – והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם. The return of the remaining living hostages removed the main source of internal pressure within Israeli society that hamstrung the government throughout the war. That is why they (the elected Israeli government) see this deal as a victory. For us, the release of 20 Jewish Neshamos from the Hamas Gehennom is a big Chessed Hashem which we are very thankful for. For Trump, he thinks he will get a Nobel Peace Prize, which he won’t, because he isn’t a Leftist. This ‘peace’ probably won’t last until next years Nobel committee meets anyway… He does deserve a Nobel for the Abraham Accords alone, which he didn’t get and won’t get again because he isn’t a Leftist Progressive. But for Hamas, they see it exactly as described above. It is worth noting that the Arab mindset in general sees these things from a long-term perspective in terms of the overall situation as opposed to ‘specific actions’, and that 10-20 years of recovery time is also OK with them as long as they see themselves as moving towards their ultimate goal. This has been pointed out many times by those familiar with the Arab culture and mentality, mostly in sources published inside Israel that Americans don’t read.
“All your items except maybe (5) were present before latest negotiations.”
Item 5 was also present all along, with Qatar playing ‘negotiatiator’. Qatar is the ‘good cop’ on the Hamas side, nothing more. They have ties to extremist Islam that the West likes to ignore, and do not have our best interests, or even the Gazans’ best interests in mind. This just goes to show again that the Turkish Bazaar crooks are sharper negotiators than Trump, despite his fantasies to the contrary. Saudi Arabia and the UAE are more worried about this than Israel is, because they know their neighbors better than Bibi thinks he does, and certainly better than Trump.
ujm – Let me ask you a question. What do the contemporary ממשיכים of the Steipler, i.e. Reb Chaim zt”l and his family, and the living Takmidim of the Steipler and Reb Chaim, have to say about the contemporary Neturei Karta? You know the answer, you are just playing games with cutting and pasting old letters out of context. There are many people alive who knew the Steipler and know exactly what he held. Go ask them…
ujm- Yaakov: You can read for yourself what the Steipler Gaon said in high praise of the Neteurei Karta, as written in קריינא דאיגרתא, and directly quoted above in the Opening Post of this thread.
I read it, as did Yankel Berel and everyone else…
The first thing I wrote on this thread seems to have slipped under your radar, so I will repeat it here:
There is a teshuva in Teshuvos HaRashba that says that the butcher store located at a certain address in Barcelona is certainly Kosher. If you happen to be in Barcelona, you know where you can go to pick up Kosher meat with the Hechsher of no less than the Rashba himself…
Now, try and think about the connection between the letter of the Rashba and the letter of the Steipler… And why it is ridiculous to take letters of Gedolim from generations ago and cut-paste to different people in different times doing different things, even if they happen to go by the same name.
AAQ – From the perspective of Hamas this is 100% victory. They got everything they wanted:
1. Thousands of terrorists freed. That was their number one priority, as they said many times.
2. The ‘Palestinian Issue’ stays more relevant than ever, despite the Abraham Accords and growing Moderate Arab frustration with the Palestinians. This is also something they said outright that they wanted to achieve.
3. Tens of thousands of ‘Palestinians’ killed and maimed, photographed and published in dead color.
4. Almost the whole world buying their claim of genocide and justifying their actions, even on October 7.
5. Qatar and Turkey got their hooves in the door to the committee leading Gaza, which means Hamas remains in power either themselves or by proxy.
6. They got themselves killed and sent to their 72 whatever…
בקיצור, they got everything they wanted and then some. They couldn’t care less about the destruction and loss of life, including their own, because that itself is part of their goal. There is no way to defeat such an enemy other than real genocide and annihilation, which Israel can’t and won’t do, because we are NOT holding by the גאולה or אתחלתא דגאולה…
ZSK – I don’t agree with the first part of this unless this is from the perspective of Chilonim.
So from who’s perspective are we talking about… The ‘world’ who use Israel as their Zhid also feel they have the moral upper hand, and that we are guilty of bringing their hate upon ourselves etc. yadda yadda… There is an exact, precise, 1-for-1, midda-k’neged-midda relationship between the two.
simcha613 – Rav Yitzchak Yosef is far from being a ‘kanai’, or even a ‘machmir’. But he is his father ZT”L’s son, and isn’t afraid to say the truth out loud. Someone who speaks on television openly with chutzpah against a wall-to-wall lineup of Gedolei Hador is OK with you? That isn’t “terrible dibur”? Yes, these people are ‘apikorsim’. Learn the Gemara in Sanhedrin about, and Sefer Chofetz Chaim for that matter, about who is an ‘apikores’ (מאי אהני לן רבנן…) before you pasken against one of the biggest Poskim of this generation.
Chaim87 – Left to their own devices they won’t think twice, but it will take them time to recover with the generous help of Qatar, Turkey, and other “peacekeepers”. והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם
AAQ – Hashem is perfectly capable of delivering a perfect solution, and if He gave us this solution in the meantime, then that is what He holds is perfect for us at present. A clear cut victory for Israel at this point would also be problematic… You won’t like my explanation why… But think for yourself.
ZSK – The only permanent solution is מחיית עמלק which presumably won’t be an option until Moshiach arrives. “International politics” is the 70 wolves voting what to do with the one sheep… The difference is that some of the wolves are OK with doing the dirty work themselves, and some are in favor of “peace”.
ujm – Yankel & Yaakov: In 1970, the NK held a public protest alongside the PLO outside the United Nations. And this was the NK that the Steipler issued extremely high praise…
No, it was not. At that point even Satmar stopped praising them…
For all the armchair Kanoyim in the room trying to find sources to expand the ranks of “Kofrim B’Ikkar”:
Are you doing this in order to strengthen your own Emunah, or someone else’s Emunah, or just to indulge in ‘kosher’ lashon hara (because you hold that the ‘bad guys’ are יצאו מכלל עמיתך)?
There is a famous vort from R’ Chaim Brisker. Women hate mice and try to kill them. Cats also hate mice and try to kill them. The difference is, women would rather that mice cease to exist altogether. Cats want mice to continue to exist, so they can enjoy chasing and killing them… The same goes for Gedolei Yisroel as opposed to askanim/politicians/balaganistim. Gedolei Yisroel truly want all of Klal Yisroel to be zocheh to real Emunah and kiyum haTorah, without any Kefirah or Krumkeit, mistaken or otherwise. Sometimes that means they have to fight reshaim, but they hate every minute of it because they would rather that everyone do Teshuvah and there be more Kvod Shomayim. The other guys also fight reshaim (for fun and profit), but they enjoy the fact that reshaim still exist, because it gives them something to fight against and show that they’re worth something…
Yankel Berel said:
as an aside – on the domestic scene — the religious in Israel are innocent victims of … prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts
and ironically …. on the international scene —- exactly the same: Israel is the innocent victim of …. prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts.
midah keneged midah , hashgacha peratit ……Exactly true. Happens again and again and again, and the Erev Rav don’t get the idea. The Chareidim are the Zhid of Israel, and Israel is the Zhid of the world.
Yankel Berel – Thank you for clarifying… Some people are capable of taking such things literally. I also don’t like these ‘open letters’ from anonymous Baalei Batim with bright ideas how to save Klal Yisroel.
ZSK – With regard to the Mesorah from R’ Chaim of Volozhin, I believe it is first recorded in the Sefer Keser Rosh which was recorded by one of his talmidim. It is well known that such a mesorah exists. None of this has anything to do with this thread though. The chiddush of R’ Chaim was that America would one day be a major center of Torah. To make such a statement in the early 1800’s was quite shocking. He didn’t say when that would happen, and how long it would remain that way. He certainly never said that any individual or group is obligated to go there or stay there in order to bring this about. It does imply that AFTER America the next stop is Eretz Yisroel and the true Geulah, not galus to a different country.
Reb Eliezer – We say in at the end of the haftorah for a taanis tzibur עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו, I will collect additional collections. We see from this that the all Jews will not go to Israel at the same time.
There is a Mesorah from Rebbe Nachman of Breslev interpreting that posuk exactly that way – that there will be a partial return followed by the complete return with Moshiach.
Yankel Berel and @fakenews – We also have a Mesorah that the essential Mahus of Eretz Yisroel is Emunah, and nothing the Zionists do can change that. מה שאין כן in Chutz Haaretz, the Communists and others were able to completely eradicate Judaism in their locations. (Even that wasn’t 100%) We see this again and again, that despite relentless incitement and defamation against Torah true Judaism (by the tiny Erev Rav minority), more and more Neshamos find their way back to Yiddishkeit. Just look at what has been going on here for the last two years, and especially with the returning hostages. What you hear in the news is only a fraction of what is actually going on (thanks to the Israeli MSM being controlled by the aforementioned Erev Rav.)
HaKatan – speaking of the Mesorah from R’ Chaim of Volozhin, אדרבה, where do you think the next station after America is? The Chofetz Chaim (who knew about the Mesorah) already said where ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה. I’m not saying that everyone has to pick up and run right now, but ממילא the train will have to move on, as it always did throughout the Galus. To say how and when that will happen, and at what point in the process will the true גאולה take place, is beyond my pay grade.
If you are worried about the Nevuah of Yechezkel and Zechariah about what will be in Eretz Yisroel, which we anyway don’t know pshat exactly how and when that already was/or will be, the Chofetz Chaim and other Gedolei Yisroel knew about that too and didn’t see that as a reason not to live here. Chutz LaAretz in Ikvesa D’Meshichah is not going to be a picnic either…
All of this doesn’t in any way change the simple reality that moving to Eretz Yisroel is not something to do because of hysteria and political speculations, but as a serious decision in your personal growth in Avodas Hashem in consultation with Daas Torah. If not, then as they say here, חבל על הזמן. It is still perfectly possible to be a fine Ehrlicher Yid in America, or ח״ו to be the opposite anywhere. Don’t make your decision based on anonymous letters of דעת בעלי בתים…
Yankel, I hope you aren’t serious…
YFRBachur – US style housing is a total non starter. Not happening. Period Stop.
Large available tracts of land near JLM? also non existent.Those two ‘kashes’ cancel each other out. There are ‘US style’ houses, available, if you are willing to move further out. There are some beautiful communities like that which cater specifically to American Olim.
Israel has it’s own, internal housing shortage. They aint bending over backwards for people who may or may not be oleh.
The reasons for that shortage have nothing to do with lack of room to build. Overregulation and bureaucracy are the main reasons, and if you have enough money they can be dealt with… In the immediate Yerushalayim area there are in fact real topographical and political (‘green line’ etc.) limitations on where you can expand.
WADR, by using the term “Ultra-Orthodox”, in the title no less, you instantly self identify as non-Chareidi…
“all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put”
As long as Moshiach hasn’t come yet, there need not be any ‘guilt over staying put’. Whether moving to Eretz Yisroel is the right move for any given individual or family depends on many factors and is a serious and personal decision, not for you to make for them. There is no one size fits all.
Forget about the Israeli government, Ministry of Housing, yadda yadda. They don’t wan’t Dossim. Just raise enough money to buy property, bribe the relevant officials to not make problems, and build on your own. There are several beautiful new neighborhoods that meet most of your suggested standards. The price of a new apartment in these places ensures that only Americans from X community buy there…
Demand easier conditions for opening businesses, easier taxation – whatever!
Tell them that for the locals too… Good luck… You actually do get certain tax breaks when you make Aliyah, if you know how to play the system.
We are on the threshold of worldwide changes that we cannot foresee their results. WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!
Because right here in Eretz Yisroel there are never any “changes that we cannot foresee their results”? The Chiloni government has a real “Plan B”? There are many reasons to move here for growth in ruchniyus if you can deal with the challenges, but your reason is not one of them.
The NK back then (in the day of Rav Amram Blau zt”l) was a completely different organization (which started out as a branch of Agudah… you can’t make this stuff up…) They didn’t register their name and logo (if they had one) with the Zionist copyright authorities, so there is no way to legally prevent the psychotic freak show from using their name. The Steipler zt”l was referring to the former NK, not the latter…
There is a teshuva in Teshuvos HaRashba that says that the butcher store located at a certain address in Barcelona is certainly Kosher. If you happen to be in Barcelona, you know where you can go to pick up Kosher meat with the Hechsher of no less than the Rashba himself…
Dear Yankel Berel, Non Political, and whoever else is interested.
I chose not to respond to Yankel Berel, despite the fact that in general I like most of his posts, and he likes most of mine (one other threads). The point is, that this sort of debate is inherently problematic. Not every Yankel and Yossel and anonymous מאן דאמר with a keyboard is qualified to decide on his own who is a Gadol and who is not, what is Kefirah and lehavdil what is true Emunah. Does anyone here have smicha to paken shailos in Halacha? Would anyone here consider himself qualified to give medical advice if that isn’t his profession? So why are we sometimes so quick to think that we are all qualified to pasken someone is a kofer ח״ו? I actually went to ask a שאלה what to do, and the Rov I asked told me that it’s better to stay away altogether from these kind of ‘chat rooms’, for a number of reasons, but most especially because it just becomes a contest who gets the last word, which is not good for middos, and also means that it’s very unlikely that anyone would be מקבל anything meaningful in such a context. This is aside from the danger of lashon hara, bizui talmidei chachamim, and other very real issurim that go out the window when everyone has to prove his point at all costs. I am writing this last post מצד דרך ארץ not to abruptly disappear and ignore those who I was conversing with.
דרך אגב – I am not ‘Yeshivish’, or Lubavitcher, I am a Chossid (of a different Chassidus), as I have said on other threads. My main Rebbe זצ״ל was among the many Gedolim who did hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am well aware that there were other Gedolim who held differently. By now basically everyone in Klal Yisroel who doesn’t live under a rock has is aware of both sides of this issue, and there really isn’t anything for people like us to add. If someone here is a שליח בית דין or otherwise acting upon the guidance of real דעת תורה, then ignore what I said. If not, think it over, maybe ask someone bigger, and choose what to do.
כתיבה וחתימה טובה, and all the best.
AAQ – My impression is that every negotiation with charedim usually negotiate for the various social benefits for the community, like paying for Nth kid more than for (N-1)st, etc.
The child subsidies battle was lost over 20 years ago, and was never seriously revisited since then. It was not a game changer for Chareidim, but possibly was for Arabs, although there were other factors involved.
AAQ – As a contrast, a lot of Mizrachi battles early on in Israel was about establishing religious institutions for the whole country.
If you are referring to the Rabbanut, that is something that started two decades before the State. We had a discussion a while back about who was behind that, what for, and whether it was a good idea. Mizrachi was in fact much more involved, why that was so is more complicated. The big battles during the beginning years of the State saw very much Chareidi involvement and Mizrachi silence. They had their reasons for not fighting, and some of them reverberate down to today’s disputes.
AAQ – YYA, you have a point, we are always stereotyping here, it is a nature of online anon discussion, thanks for reminding to keep it lower. I am mostly responding to the positions articulated here by posters and sometimes articles with pronouncements. I am obviously aware that not everyone thinks like that – and I welcome when someone says that, like you sometimes do! I do think that info we are getting reflects some of the reality.
I try. No one is perfect, as an individual or as a group, but the reality is that a lot of really good stuff is going on here, but news is all about “man bit dog” and clickbait. You do see here about one article about a Chessed organization for every 200 articles about politics and hafganot.
AAQ – Thanks for listing various organizations. So, back to the army topic – why not bring some of the army-related activity into negotiations – and into public statements.
Actually, various forms of “national service” were suggested at different points in the draft saga over the years. Sometimes tacit deals were put together, but always the Supreme Court and Company disqualified them.
ZSK and AAQ – ״משתכנזים״ is a different and more recent phenomenon of Sephardi bochurim from Chareidi homes who attended Ashkenazi Yeshivos and adopted Ashkenazi mannerisms and even minhagim. If it is מחזק them to do so, שיהיו בריאים/זאל זיין געזונט.
ZSK – You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach.
The Sephardim themselves certainly do, for the last five centuries. Just look at the list of famous Mekubalim over that period of time. I am curious about the Ramchal’s Siddur, if you have more information.
ujm – I don’t like the government of Israel, and certainly the historical Secular Zionist movement any more than you do. I do love the people here, and believe that most of them are closer to Torah and Emunah than you think. But the language you use makes it easy to avoid the real part of your message.
Yankel Berel – I prepared a detailed response to your post, but I am scrapping it, because I am not interested in fueling further back and forth on this subject that will inevitably lead to more ביזוי תלמידי חכמים. All of the ענוים and בעלי מידות of the coffee room can figure it out for themselves, without help from a “בעל גאוה” who for some reason doesn’t consider himself qualified to say דעות about someone many גדולים did in fact hold of, even if some others disagreed. כתיבה וחתימה טובה to all.
I’m somewhat amused at how those who say that “we can never know why the Holocaust happened” and similar comments, have no problem knowing why the State of Israel happened. The truth is, EVERYTHING is a ניסיון, and a preparation for Hashem’s end game. How exactly that will work is indeed something we cannot know in advance.
AAQ – I agree with most what you have (agreeing with me:), but I don’t agree with this last one. Sephardi chachamim indeed go great length to show uniformity and be seen as part of Israeli charedim. Still, the performative rejection of everything related to the country does not exist there.
That was exactly the point being made. Even the Sephardim, who are less opposed to the State per se, are working together with the Kanoyim (not just UTJ) on THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE, because it is NOT necessary to go as far as “rejection of everything related to the country” in order to be opposed to sending 18 year old boys to a “gender integrated” Progressive social engineering tool, that also happens to be an army. This has been explained here many times, not just by myself.
I am still waiting for anyone to present a coherent, logical, and practical alternative for maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, that doesn’t rely on the Chareidim.
Aliyah can be great for many things, but not for sustainable long term growth. The numbers are also nowhere near enough, despite enormous efforts, much money spent, and helpful organizations.
Google “Demographics of Israel”, read the various articles and surveys, and try to come up with something…
Without a Jewish majority, the IDF won’t have what to fight for altogether. And everyone knows it. Especially our enemies…
Gadolhadofi – I have six members of my extended family currently serving in Gaza, my son-in-law’s friend and next door neighbor was killed in action, as was the niece of a very close friend of my wife (she was a border guard who was killed in the initial attack), who’s husband davens in the same shul I do. So I don’t live under a rock or in a bubble. (Or in America for that matter…)
Forgot to mention the amazing work done by Rav Haber זצ״ל and Matnat Chaim. Dor Yesharim is another medical organization that started as a Chareidi initiative, and spread far beyond.
ZSK – This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
The connection to Lusatia goes back over 250 years before the birth of the Ramchal. The custom (and Halacha) was that individuals (as opposed to entire communities exiled together) who migrated to other countries adopted the local minhagim. So that, together with marrying into the local Jewish community for centuries, means that for all practical purposes he wasn’t much of a “Yekke”, just as the Shelah, Aruch HaShulchan, and Skulener Rebbe weren’t “Sephardim”
The piece about the Ramchal’s siddur is fascinating. Where did you see that? There is part of a מחזור for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur extant with handwritten glosses of the Ramchal, which were published. This is the first I’ve heard about a whole Siddur.
ujm – A large portion, indeed likely well over a majority, of current fully Torah observant Sephardim, are religiously observant under Ashkenazic influence. This includes them (or their parents/grandparents) having attended Ashkenazic Yeshivos, etc.
This is a complicated and sensitive subject, and the breakdown of the numbers depends entirely on how you define “fully Torah observant”. If you use an Ashkenazi Chareidi definition, then that’s called a “No True Scotsman” argument. (No Scotsman ever ran away from battle. Aye, Donald MacRonald did run away? He wasn’t a True Scotsman… = No truly observant Jew wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim, because anyone who wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim isn’t a truly observant Jews.)
If you define “observant” as Shomer Mitzvos in the basic sense, which is what most Sephardim were to begin with, then the vast majority cannot be credited DIRECTLY to Ashkenazi influence. (More on that below.)
ujm – A lot of this is the result of the Ashkenazic Torah world having strongly helped their Sephardic brethren remain strongly Torah observant during their transition from the Arab lands to Israel, when the State of Israel spent considerable resources in attempts to secularize the Sephardic immigrants.
This is very true, however unfortunately the number saved were dwarfed by the number lost. The entire Torah world then, less than five years after the Holocaust, was a small and impoverished שארית הפליטה, and not in a position to compete with the Mapai bosses, the Jewish Agency, the שומר הצעיר Kibbutz movement, and other קליפות who played a role in the Shmad.
What did happen, somewhat later on, is that many Sephardi parents who kept their Mesorah of יראת שמים, realized what was going on, and with great מסירות נפש sent their children to Yeshivos, which mostly (though not exclusively) were Ashkenazi. Usually Litvish, some Chabad. Those children in many cases grew up to become תלמידי חכמים who opened their own Sephardic Yeshivot and Talmud Torah, and were מחנך the next generation of Sephardi children, including many who didn’t come from observant homes at that time. There were also Sephardi חכמים who learned לכתחילה in the old Sephardi Yeshivot, such as Rav Ovadia and others, who sent their children to Ashkenazi Yeshivos, and they eventually opened Sephardi Yeshivot that synthesized some elements of the Ashkenazi Derech in learning. Rav Meir Mazuz זצ״ל, who recently passed away, learned by his father in Djerba, then in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva opened in Tunisia, where he became Rosh Yeshiva, and then he opened a Sephardi Yeshiva in Bnei Brak where he was מקפיד to follow the Tunisian דרך הלימוד.
While all of this was happening, many if not most Sephardim remained basically שומרי מצוות to some extent, despite the best efforts of the Zionists. They built Shuls which the vast majority of them attended, and they maintained their Minhagim and distinctive sincerity, Emunah, and legendary respect for חכמים. The products of the various Yeshivos mentioned became Rabbanim, Mechanchim, and Kiruv workers, who helped significantly raise the level of שמירת המצוות and Torah learning among the Sephardim at large over the last 40 or so years, so now it is much more common to see Sephardi Baalei Batim who are truly learned and מדקדקים במצוות. It is also important to note that Sephardim typically see the entire community as an organic whole, where everyone feels they belong even if not everyone is on the same level of observance, so it would be very hard to do an accurate breakdown of the numbers.
So, bottom line, it’s true that the מסירות נפש of the פעילים and others eventually bore fruit, and there is an Ashkenazi connection to much of the contemporary Sephardi Torah world, through different channels, most of them indirectly.
AAQ – I have $100 and you give me another $10. I still owe you $10 and gratitude.
Actually, the correct equation is more like – you take $100, and give me back $10 (or less). Still something if you legally take $100 from everyone equally, and give me a special rebate, however the Israeli government gives out subsidies for all kinds of things you never hear any noise about. There is a Ministry of Sports and Culture that subsidizes soccer games (on Shabbos of course, my tax shekels at work רחמנא ליצלן) and the Philharmonic Orchestra, among other causes. Why entertainment venues that sell tickets need cash handouts altogether is something you never hears anyone yelling about. IIRC, its budget is about 10X more than all government support of Yeshivos and Kollelim put together, and more than triple the entire Misrad Hadatot budget (some of which goes to support churches, again רחמנא ליצלן). Personally, I never took a shekel from the “Datot” as a matter of principle.
AAQ – this attitude turns off all of us who are observant but do not choose to follow your leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Please read this article thoroughly, then please share with me what alternative plan you have for maintaining a Jewish majority of any kind in Israel, and how to motivate anyone to implement your plan, that doesn’t involve “choosing to follow (Chareidi) leaders”. I have been waiting for over a week. Got a few בזיונות from Gadolhadofi, one התחמקות from ZSK, but no serious, coherent answers.
AAQ – If you plan for the charedi army in, say, 30 years, you need to send enough high school students to study physics right now.
Considering that since the beginning of the war in Gaza about a sixth of the soldiers killed were due to ‘friendly fire’ and accidents, maybe you can offer some suggestions to the IDF on how to train their soldiers better RIGHT NOW, instead of worrying about how the Chareidim will do so in the future. Perhaps they can put more emphasis on safety training, and less on progressive ideology, more emphasis on recognizing physical reality when choosing in which roles to place new recruits, and less on “gender integration”. The Torah also teaches us that protecting our soldiers safety is more important than protecting “innocent” Gazans… 18 year old kids didn’t have “decades” to prepare for anything. Tech infrastructure, R&D know-how, Iron Dome, nukes, etc., that were built over decades, aren’t going to disappear and require rebuilding from scratch. Be that as it may, without Chareidim, Israel would soon enough become the fourth Moslem majority nuclear power, after Pakistan, France, and the UK…
Haleivi – I was expecting a response from those who seem to think it’s OK to be מבזה someone they think may be a Kofer. They did write back with the usual circular reasoning. In reality, the most that is EVER permitted לתועלת is למיחש מיבעי, which לכאורה doesn’t include “qwertying” anyone.
Dear user176,
I also strongly disagreed with the disgusting title of this thread, and the irrelevant hate language. But posts like yours also make the mistake of confusing ideology with people. To clarify:
“A hiloni loving in Israel who loves Hashem and every Jew is your brother whether you like it or not.”
Absolutely. Although those people don’t usually call themselves “Chilonim”, but “Masortim” meaning “traditional”. There are more of them then there are real “Chilonim” (who also are our brothers whether THEY like it or not…)
“and may very well sit in the front row in olam haba.”
I am not in charge of Olam Haba, but תינוק שנשבה doesn’t create זכות, only mitigates liability. Someone who is מחלל שבת is probably not going to be in the “front row in Olam Haba” AS HE IS NOW. However, if he lives in Israel, he is statistically far more likely to have a תיקון eventually by himself of his children/descendants becoming בעלי תשובה. The “Secular” Israelis, at least over 80% of them, especially the Sephardim, are also far more connected to Judaism than Secular Jews in America, who nowadays basically know nothing and have over 50% intermarriage. There is a small minority (which used to be bigger) of real רשעים. Tinok Shenishba DOES NOT excuse being חוטא ומחטיא etc. The founders of the state in many case were not even תינוק שנשבה by any stretch.
“Do you shake a lulav without aravot?”
Again correct, but you have to know what is an Arava and what is an Etrog, and not confuse between them. One can and must do that without calling anyone Fourth Reich etc.
“There is constructive criticism l’toelet and their is destructive all encompassing vitriol against swaths of Am Yisrael.”
Again absolutely correct.
“It is so blatantly obvious that the current State of Israel is the foundation and preparation for Mashiah.”
The two World Wars definitely were preparation for Mashiach, and the Chofetz Chaim and others said so, that doesn’t give credit to those who perpetrated them (the real Second and Third…) Everything, including Trump, Putin, and the weather, is a PREPARATION for Hashem’s ultimate goals. The FOUNDATION for Mashiach is Torah, Mitzvot, and Teshuvah.
ZSK – I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.
ZSK – I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai and Rav Ovadia both have large and distinct groups of people who do everything according to their שיטות. The Chida is probably the most frequently quoted mid-era Sephardi Acharon, but I don’t know of any group who follows his פסקים exclusively.
ujm – Is anyone here familiar with the migration trajectory of Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc.? As in, which came from Eretz Yisroel, which from Bavel, etc. And where the separation formed between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and others.
The Jewish communities of Iraq and Iran most definitely came from Bavel. The Jews of the island of Djerba, in Tunisia, claim descent from two Mishmaros of Kohanim who were exiled there from Eretz Yisroel at the time of Churban Bayis Sheini. Seeing as Djerba was geographically isolated from the Goyish urban centers, did not get chased repeatedly from place to place like most other kehillos in Golus, and was a major מקום תורה for centuries, they preserved their Mesorah unusually well. The Yemenite Jews were there since Churban Bayis Rishon. Interestingly, certain Teimani minhagim are similar to old Ashkenazi minhagim (the square Kesher Shel Rosh being one example.) Since the last time our ancestors met was probably at the Aliyah LaRegel in the First Beis Hamikdash, that shows an amazing continuity of Mesorah. The first Jews in Western Europe, including both Ashkenaz and Sepharad, were probably those exiled there by the Romans. Afterwards it’s possible some came there from Bavel too, via the Byzantine Empire and Italy.
The emergence of Ashkenazim and Sephardim as distinct groups is generally considered to have started at the end of the Tekufah of the Geonim. Until then, all major Halachic shailos that couldn’t be resolved locally would be sent to the great Yeshivos at Pumbedisa and Sura. Many travelled all the way to Bavel to learn there, like Rabbeinu Gershom did. When Moslem persecution in Bavel, and increasing danger traveling, made that system end, the local Yeshivos took over. In Spain the Yeshivos followed the teachings and Mesorah of Rabbeinu Chananel and the Rif, and in Germany that of Rabbeinu Gershom and his Talmidim (who in turn were the Rebbeim of Rashi). There was a Torah presence beforehand in both places, but everyone was subordinate to the Geonim of Bavel, who had a direct living Mesorah from the Amoraim.
AAQ – For the record, as a matter of principle I have never voted in any Israeli election, so they are not “my politicians”. Nor have I ever taken a shekel from the State other than things that every citizen is automatically eligible for equally, such as subsidized health care, even when eligible to do so, also as a matter of principle. Everything you and most others here think that you know about the POV of the different groups in Israel is based on reading news. That isn’t a good way to get to know anything, let alone something as complicated as this.
Speaking of POV, I’m sure you don’t do this deliberately, but you and other Frum Jews who post here, regularly use negatively slanted language and apply double standards towards Chareidim. When Goyim (or secular Jews) in the NYT, WSJ, or broadcast media, do the same to Israel, you (and I) rightfully call them antisemites.
“Your politicians are always DEMANDING more” [Something was legislated years ago/Bagatz-AG strike down the law/Chareidim ASK, like every politician would, to RETURN WHAT WAS ALREADY = Chareidim DEMAND more…]
“On every issue of your community.” Name one other “community” issue in the last 30 years that was, by itself, a reason for Chareidim toppling a government. I’m waiting… לזכותה ייאמר, an RZ MK broke ranks with her own party and toppled the Bennett government for religious reasons.
“Just stop blaming and complaining.” In other words, don’t answer back or otherwise defend yourself when we blame and complain about you. I never initiated any thread here. All I did was respond to various complaints towards Chareidim, mostly by people with limited knowledge of the subject.
Another commenter accused me of engaging in “PR”, for having the chutzpah to defend the Yeshiva World on a website called “Yeshiva World News”…
“and try to find small ways to show others that good that you can show them”
Some big ways:
Yad Sarah, Ichud Hatzalah, Zaka, Efrat (a mostly Chareidi organization that by definition helps ONLY Chilonim…), all of the major food distribution Tzedakas help very many beneficiaries who aren’t Chareidim, ditto for the Bikur Cholims, many non-Chareidim with special needs children send them to Chareidi places where they get better care. Laniado Medical Center in Netanya was built by the Klausenberger Rebbe זצ״ל, and serves the greater Netanya area, which is decidedly non-Chareidi, aside from the one small neighborhood where it is located. Yad L’Achim, aside from its Kiruv work, famously works to rescue Jewish women from Arab villages, at great risk to themselves. Most of those women aren’t Chareidi… Apologies to those organizations I didn’t remember by name off the top of my head.
Some smaller ways:
Very many Chareidi volunteers who bring joy to patients and family in hospitals and nursing homes, special children, the mentally and emotionally challenged, and yes, hold on tight, to – soldiers. For some strange reason, the soldiers never threw rotten tomatoes at us… In fact, they less-than-legally allowed us into encampments of IDF soldiers adjacent to Gaza, who were quite glad to see us.
I deliberately focused on general Chareidi activity, and left out things specific to certain groups (Chabad being the most obvious example) or individuals (Chareidi donors, who help many non-Chareidi beneficiaries). There are also Chareidi volunteers in not (exclusively or primarily) Chareidi organizations.
None of this is secret, and none of this is new. So why does this even need to be pointed out to people on “Yeshiva World” News?
ARSo – It’s not a matter of being a בר פלוגתא. It’s calling out patently false views
In order to decide which views are “patently false”, you need to be within some sort of standard deviation of being a בר פלוגתא. If you open up a ראשון and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”? There has to be some שייכות, which no one writing here has. If Rav Shach זצ״ל would be writing here I wouldn’t be calling him out ח״ו. This is just פשוט שכל. If you follow a גדול (not just for purposes of מחלוקת, but follow for real) who happens to also not hold of Lubavitch, fine for you. That doesn’t give you the right to add your own “two cents” to this or any other מחלוקת.
ARSo – had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T because he was a big talmid chochom and we therefore have no שייכות to being his בר פלוגתא?
It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…
ARSo – That is SO not true! Every single Lubavicher that I have ever met over more than the last fifty years is focused on spreading the word of how great their rebbe was/is, and it really irks them if someone doesn’t believe that he was/is the tzaddik hador.
So what. In discussing the parameters of תועלת, nowhere does the חפץ חיים permit saying לשון הרע in order to “irk” someone. If it is clear that there is no possibility of convincing someone, then there is no obligation, and ממילא no היתר, of תוכחה or תועלת or anything else. Be honest. Whoever is posting these comments here is just doing it for fun. Not to “save” anyone. By the way, believing any particular person is the צדיק הדור is perfectly Kosher. You don’t have to agree, but that is a long way from בזיון.
ARSo – That’s fine when the question is merely, is someone a gadol or not. But when the question is whether the supposed-gadol has views that are dangerous and misleading, your rebbe’s rule does not apply, even according to the Chofetz Chaim.
No, not at all. To trigger a ספק דאורייתא of איסורי לשון הרע it is not at all necessary to be a גדול, only to be עמיתך, which nowadays is not much higher a bar than being Shomer Shabbos… You are also using circular reasoning. Anyone you think might be a כופר is automatically no longer protected by עמיתך, which in turn permits you to be דן לכף חוב, which establishes that he is in fact a כופר…
If you don’t like Lubavitch, maybe you like Satmar… The Divrei Yoel said that if someone is very excited about one particular Mitzvah, but not so much about other Mitzvos, he should investigate carefully where his excitement is coming from… Are all the people here so excited about “saving כלל ישראל” from “כפירה” equally excited about every other aspect of Yiddishkeit?
GadolHadofi – This website is ostensibly ‘Yeshivish’, so I am not talking to a secular audience. As it happens, ‘secular’ Israelis, to a larger extent than you think, do understand the issues I raised. In fact, Arachim and others use exactly the same line of reasoning I did when discussing these issues. Especially the issue you ignored altogether, which is who is doing more for the survival of Israel as a Jewish state, something directly tied to maintaining a Jewish majority. I actually do kiruv work in real life, something I have mentioned previously. (It is true that Kiruv of Israelis and Kiruv of Americans are two different planets in many respects. Israelis tend to respond better to a more direct and even ‘tough’ approach in debate, something that has much to do with the local mentality.)
The reality is that the average Israeli has many things on his mind other than drafting the Chareidim. The amount of space devoted to this issue on the news portion of this website doesn’t reflect daily life in Israel any more than the American news items are reflective of daily life in America. News is all about clickbait. Real-life Israelis, most of whom aren’t really hardcore ‘Chilonim’, deal with the same day to day challenges all people deal with, and much of real-life Kiruv is about showing them how the Torah helps us deal with those challenges. That usually interests them much more than politics. When inevitably they do get around to “Well OK, all of this is really great, I wish they would have told me about this growing up, but why don’t you guys go to the Army etc.?” Arachim and others do use exactly the arguments I did. In fact, in private sessions, people like Uri Zohar and Ika Israeli ז״ל were even more blunt then I was… None of this is a secret, at least not here.
For some strange reason I didn’t think posting on a “Frum” website qualifies as “attempting PR”. I noticed that most people posting here, who live outside of Israel, do not really understand Israeli society, Chareidi, RZ, or non-religious. This applies equally to the wannabe “kanoyim”, and to those who berate the Chareidim for “not sharing the burden”, both of them from the comfort of their homes in חוץ לארץ… That led me to try to share my perspective, born of real life experience. I do have more important things to do, so I’m not interested in continuing to bother you.
ZSK – Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim
GadolHadofi – Baruch Hashem, I am much involved in Kiruv (something I have mentioned in other posts), have an excellent relationship with my Chiloni, Mesorti, RZ, and Chareidi neighbors, and those two things taught me a bit more about the reality in Israel than you probably are aware of. My comment about raising teenagers was humorous, if you didn’t get it.