Yaakov Yosef A

Re. Israel becoming a “stratocracy” [= rule by military elite]

I hope not, and it certainly isn’t official. Maybe it’s a “judiciocracy” [if there is such a word.] It is becoming more and more obvious that Bibi is deliberately trying to maintain an endless state of [at least low simmer] war and fear in order to strengthen his political position. Which is a move in that direction and disturbing to say the least.

AAQ: “You read this in spy novels. The game is a little different now. Internet allows cheap access to multitudes of not very smart people.”

YYA: I don’t read spy novels… You are right that some ‘human resources’ are recruited online (including by the Mossad), but they go after people who have access to ‘something’ of value. A Chareidi yungerman is probably the dumbest choice for a spy recruiter, because he wouldn’t even be able to get access to an army base, let alone anything more sensitive. Unless this is just a ‘psyop’ campaign, which it appears to be.

AAQ Re. “Religious group”

YYA: Forgive my semantics, the emphasis was not on defining Chareidim as a different religion… My point in that post was that not every “No true Scotsman” is automatically a fallacy. There is SOMETHING that genuinely defines a “true Scotsman”, and SOMETHING that defines a “true Chareidi”. This is especially true in a religious context. A person cannot be a “true Orthodox Jew” of any sort if he doesn’t believe in Torah MiSinai that isn’t subject to change. What precisely defines one as a “true Chareidi” is an interesting discussion in itself, but SOMETHING must be a red line.

AAQ – “Population issue was (is?) part of Zionist discourse. Government would use more resources to subsidize larger families. Maybe even more than now, as now “subsidies for Nth child” is a code word for paying charedim and, thus, controversial. Would this work? I am not sure – it seems that world experience with encouraging more children by money is not working well.”

YYA: The secular establishment all but gave up hope on the population front since the Second Intifada ended their pipe dream of flooding Israel with Russian Goyim. (And scared many of those already here into emigrating.) Having kids as a Zionist ideal (among seculars) is something that went the way of the Kibbutzim, Mapa”i, punch made with raspberry cyclamate syrup, and pay phones that took ‘asimonim’…

As far as subsidies, you seem to be behind on Israeli news. That ship sailed over 20 years ago thanks to the efforts of Tommy Lapid (father of Yair). Until then Israel had relatively generous child subsidies, similar to European countries, which were slashed in the hopes of reducing the Chareidi birth rate. It didn’t work. But no one has any ??? ????? of bringing those subsidies back.

You are very right that subsidies have never succeeded in INCREASING birth rate, such as in places like Japan and South Korea where the government is desperate to stop the population collapse. I vaguely remember a quote (maybe you know who said this?) to the effect that having and raising children is a commitment that no amount of money can pay for, and a joy no amount of money can buy.

AAQ said: “YYA> It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim – sounds like an answer Moshe gave at the sne … well, that also happened only once in history … this is a self-protective instinct to go away from others not just to Torah but even only to the Torah taught “by your Rebbeim” …

YYA: Well, if we’re together with Moshe Rabbeinu than we’re in good company… Sometimes our job is to protect ourselves, if that is what the Ribbono Shel Olam wants. The core of the debate here is determining WHAT exactly the Ribbono Shel Olam wants. If you think you know better than the Gedolim, so do what you want.

AAQ said: “it is in the gemorah whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own – who says your blood is redder. And, as with all contracts, they require agreement of both sides. If you can convince the rest of Israelis of your mailos, I’ll have no problems with that at all!”

YYA: Don’t understand what you want to say here. This isn’t “whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own”. No ‘contract’ or agreement could ever permit such a thing. What about people my age (of all religious affiliations) who anyway don’t go to the army? Are we “giving someone’s life instead of our own”? This isn’t how the dynamic works, and this isn’t how these decisions are made. The rest of the Israelis do not decide what the Torah says or what Hashem wants from us. That’s all this boils down to. If you think that you understand better than a broad consensus of Gedolei Torah what Hashem wants us to do, so be happy and do what you want. We will listen to them, not you. Nothing personal. Do you also decide for yourself on medical or legal matters, or do you ask the professionals?

AAQ said: “So, the question becomes: why don’t non-charedi Israelis value great charedi contribution in growing families, learning Torah, providing religious services to others, having great middos, inviting foreign investment, providing kiddush Hashem and kiddush medina story in international papers about great Torah lifestyle, etc? You can’t blame this on anti-religious sentiment – B’H majority of Israelis are either observant or traditional, with many others indifferent rather than anti-religious.”

YYA: You answered your own question. Many (observant, traditional, or ‘sympatish’) Israelis do value the Chareidi contribution in some of those ways. Those who don’t are mostly part of the other group who are anti-religious (or more accurately, brainwashed by the media most of the time.) There are also RZ in both of those camps. The more R in the former, the more Z (sometimes) in the latter.

The truth is that at ‘street level’, in real life, there is much less anti-Chareidi sentiment here than you would think from reading the clickbait headlines.

AAQ – This is like a debate between two people who speak two different languages. Each one’s line of reasoning makes no sense from the other’s perpective.

AAQ Re. Expelling the Chareidim

BTW, if you really hold that Chareidim should pick up and leave, and if not then they are ‘gazlanim’ or whatever, so tell that to the Israeli government (who never even suggested such nonsense), not to the Chareidim. They will have a lot of work to do:

1. Finding a country or countries willing to grant over a million Chareidim political asylum. [Start moving while Trump is still in office…]

2. Financing over a million plane tickets and hundreds of thousands of cargo shipments. [Not to mention the logistics involved, let alone the cost.]

3. Explaining to the Goyim why over a million Jews are now refugees from the ‘Jewish State’. [It has been said that this is the real reason the Chilonim never dared to do this…]

4. Establish a Left Progressive government now that the political balance has been upset in their favor.

5. Enact a One State Solution, separating religion, ethnicity, and state. Israel loses any semblance of a Jewish will to live.

6. The Arabs smell blood.

7. Rinse and repeat items 1 and 2 for the Chilonim themselves as soon as the State of Palestine is established “from the River to the Sea”.

AAQ said: “Who made “charedi” a synonym to “Torah”?

YYA: ‘Chareidi’ is a ‘demonym’ to Torah [like ‘Americans’ to ‘America’], not a ‘synonym’. The Navi Yeshayah [in the Haftarah ????? ????, last perek] used that term. Check the Pesukim there for the context and tell me it doesn’t sound familiar… If you know of a group of people more loyal to Torah, please tell me where they are so I can go join them…

AAQ said: “If after we went through various logical aspects of this, the final answer is based on “I am right because I am right”, then it is an indication of a weakness in the position.”

YYA: “I am right because my Rebbe is right” is an argument from authority. Something perfectly Kosher in Judaism, if not in secular philosophy and debate. Not at all the same as: “I am right because I am right”. This isn’t “weakness in the position”, this is the strength of the ??? ??? who is the source of ???? ?????? ????? within ??? ?????, as well as general antisemitism in the world at large. Both have nothing to do with logic, and their proponents give contradictory reasons for why they hate the objects of their hatred.

SomeJew said: “In what world do you really believe that this is really Iran behind these “agents”? this could easily be the Zionist government as well as it could easily be completely fabricated from top to bottom.”

YYA: I’m no fan of the Israeli government or Zionism, and they certainly are capable of fabricating or exaggerating cases against people they want to get rid of, (including their own Prime Minister), but it doesn’t make sense for them to take a random Yungerman from Beit Shemesh who no one ever heard of, and send him to jail for three years ‘just so’. They also arrested several Chiloni soldiers, which from their perspective is a much bigger problem, because soldiers have access to actual information about the army.

SomeJews said: “So, I don’t think the argument should be “does this help Iran” as that just follows lockstep with the zionist propaganda that Iran is an enemy of the Jews, when rather they are an enemy of Israel (and the non-Jewish “West”.

YYA: ??? ????, even ??????, if the Zionists are behind this, then making a tumult about this helps the Zionists scare Yidden. If the Iranians are behind this, then it helps the Iranians scare Yidden. The point was that there is zero positive toeles from publicizing the name of the Yid from Beit Shemesh who was caught up in this mess.

Yo do also realize that as far as Iran is concerned, all Yidden living in Eretz Yisroel are ‘Zionists’, even ?? ???? ???? that they don’t hate the Yidden who live elsewhere.

AAQ said: “Let’s put Devorah aside…”

YYA: Maybe there is a difference between a Neviah answering questions ?? ?? ?????? as a Hora’as Sha’ah (something that happened twice in the entire history of Klal Yisroel) that she was commanded ????? to do, as opposed to 20 year old girls teaching 18 year old boys? Does co-ed high school also evoke comparisons to Tanach in your opinion?

AAQ said: “The rest is a tactical question of chicken and egg – can charedim start cooperating and help bring kosher Israel faster or will you be waiting for someone else to deal with the problems and will join only when it is safe. Whole Chumash is about being leaders in solving issues, not waiting until someone else will create a perfect environment for you.”

YYA: It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim. If we can be mekarev some Yidden then wonderful, but that isn’t a heter to fudge ANYTHNG in Yiddishkeit. I am not a Tzedoki, so I don’t know how to read out of Chumash any Heter to do anything not approved by Gedolei Yisroel, who also can read Chumash… By the way, the people clamoring for Chareidim to “cooperate” are not interested in a “kosher Israel” either, so you are trying to make a Shidduch between two sides that have no interest in it.

AAQ said: “I understand you are taking offense of my suggestion to leave the country. This is purely a socratic argument here. You plan to take advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate. You propose a payment that they find insufficient. Then, don’t use the service. You can live in EY outside of Medina.”

“When you live under Poritz and have a chance to live in a normal country, you need to move. See Rambam/desert. Any commentaries there that discuss whether and how is EY different in this aspect?”

YYA: First of all, open up the Rambam and read what he said: (Hilchos Deios beginning of Chapter 6)

?????? ??????????? ???? ????? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ????????????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????. ????????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ????????????? ????????? ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????????. ??????????? ??? ??????????? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????????????. ???? ???????????? ?????? (???? ?? ?) “??????? ??? ???????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ???????”. ???????? ???????? ??????? ?????’. ????? ??? ????? ??????????? ?????????????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ????????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????? ???????. ????? ????? ???? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????? ????????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????????. ??? ????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ??????? ???????? ??????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ??????????? (???? ? ??) “?????? ?????? ????????”. ????? ????? ?????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ??? ???? ????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ????? ????? ??????????? ???????????? ????????????????. ????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? (????? ? ?) “??? ?????????? ??????????? ?????? ????????”:

He is clearly not talking about oppression, Poritizm, etc. The issue is associating with the wrong crowd. Which is EXACTLY why joining the IDF is a complete non-starter. (Aside from gilui arayos, chilul Shabbos, and other ‘pitchifkes’ that don’t seem to bother you too much.)

Now let’s talk about “taking advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate”. There are about half a dozen main arguments why Chareidim, myself included, do not feel any guilt about this whatsoever, some of which have been discussed, but I don’t have time to waste draying a kup arguing with you back and forth about the merits of those arguments. It’s enough to go straight to the bottom line. Which is:

The whole point of life is to do ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??. This is done by learning and keeping the Torah.

Including: Halacha, Mussar, Hashkafa, Chassidus, Middos, Ahava, Yirah, Kedushah, Taharah, Deveikus, Bein Adam LaMakom, Bein Adam Lachaveiro, Lifnim Mishuras Hadin, Minhagei Yisroel, Gedarim uSeyagim, Mentchlichkeit as defined by Torah, being normal and healthy and well balanced as defined by Torah, Fifth Shulchan Aruch, etc.

Not including: What the Chilonim will think of us, what the Goyim will think of us, how it will look in the New York Times, the latest theories of the apikorsim, “ethics” as defined by non-Torah sources, worrying about things Hashem doesn’t want us to worry about, the secular ‘flavor of the month’, Never Again TM, Jewish Pride TM, what the scientists say, what the politicians say, what the askonim say, what the Coffee Room says, etc.

[Please don’t nitpick about the details of the lists, yes there are gray areas, I think the general message and flavor is quite clear…]

So, how do we know what to do? We ask our Rabbeim. Not by reading pashkevilim or ‘Frum’ magazines or websites. By finding a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshivah and asking and listening and most importantly Davening for Siyata DiShmaya. Who is qualified to ask? Try to find someone who dedicates his life to serving Hashem and helping others to also do so. Someone thoroughly familiar with all aspects of Torah including everything on List A. Preferably someone who comes from the Mesorah your family comes from, but that is less ???? on issues other than straight Halacha and Minhag. And most importantly Daven for Siyata DiShmaya.

Since my Rebbe Muvhak said not to go to the IDF, and the Rov who I currently ask my questions in Halacha and Hashkafa to says not to send my sons to the IDF, so for me the issue is closed. Since there is basically wall to wall consensus on this in the entire Chareidi world, so for all of us the issue is closed.

If that upsets you or anyone else, zei gezunt and be happy. Nothing personal. I’m just not interested in spending more time debating endlessly about the IDF. Which is actually why I started this thread on a different topic.

AAQ – For goodness sake, no one is interested in forcing Satmar to vote, and no one ever will be. Can you figure out why? And the fact that they stay completely out of politics and TAKE NO MONEY from the Medinah makes them immune to any pressure that could be applied to others. [Their birth rate is also even higher than the ‘regular’ Chareidi birthrate, without help from government money…]

Yankel Berel Re. P/N and Satmar.

Thank you for clarifying. I am not Satmar or close enough to Satmar to be able to definitively say what they really hold on the ‘ground level’ so to speak. That said:

1. Being confronted with a ????? ??? ????? choice on the individual level due to ‘Shevuos’ issues ?????? cannot occur as long as Israel stays a democracy.

2. As far as the legitimacy or lack thereof of the IDF and its actions, even when clearly P/N, no one is asking Satmar, and Satmar probably wouldn’t answer them if asked. So where do you see ‘real life’ P/N?

3. Since at least the leaders of Satmar presumably understand this, so any wording to the contrary is ?????? rhetoric. Does anyone seriously think anyone will be forced to vote on pain of death? Or even join the IDF? So why do the ‘pashkevilim’ contain ????? ??? ????? or similar language? ??? ???, it means “this stuff is totally non negotiable under any circumstances.” Which is enough to negate any possibility of compromise. ?? ???? ?? drafting girls which is literally and Halachically ????? ??? ????? because of the possibility of [problems] without consent on their part ??? [something that frequently occurs in the IDF and is swept under the rug.]

AAQ Re. your back and forth with Reb Mutche.

This has been beaten to death again and again. (Aside from the fact that you again got the numbers and facts drastically wrong, but that isn’t ????.) No one has the right to force bochurim into a situation where they will inevitably be subjected to [the things we have repeatedly discussed.] Period. End of discussion. They can’t put us all in jail or kill us. And whatever else they may try to do to us now will set a legal precedent for what our grandchildren will legally be able to do to their grandchildren… The politicians already understand this. The main problem is the Supreme Court and AG. It’s easier to remove nine people from power than to have a civil war, even if only one side has guns. They don’t want to look like Iran.

AAQ said: “This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.”

YYA: There can be good kings (Shapur wasn’t elected democratically) and bad ones, or good elected leaders and bad ones. On a purely utilitarian level, the main difference between an autocracy and a democracy is the speed and extent to which things can move in either a good or bad direction (or both), due to not being slowed down by checks and balances.

AAQ: “Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …”

YYA: True. Although the Emperor had significantly more power than the President of a constitutional republic, and in some places (including in that same Gemara ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ???) he is referred to as a ‘King’, despite the checks on his power. (Contrary to popular belief, ancient kings in general didn’t always have completely unlimited power, and had to deal with rules, traditions, and political intrigues.) Imperial Rome actually operated as a form of oligarchy where a ruling class of wealthy and connected families with representatives in the Senate chose the Emperor and other key posts from within their ranks.

AAQ: “Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?”

YYA: On a practical level, once the option became available, republics and democracies (without getting into the differences) were and are usually the best places for Jews to live. With some very big exceptions… It’s also worth noting that the Roman Empire worked quite effectively (for their purposes) as a “proven political model” for more than double the amount of time the USA has existed, so time will tell…

AAQ: “1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.”

YYA: Truth be told, I regretted mentioning Mexico as soon as I sent the comment (although they seem to have a full blown listim-ocracy down there in the literal sense), because it confuses what I was trying to say. The term ‘??????’ in this context means strongmen who seized power illegitimately. This is based on the premise that any non-Torah government of and by Jews, certainly inside Halachic Eretz Yisroel, does not have the Halachic legitimacy of ???? ??????? ????. This is the opinion of mainstream Chareidi Poskim ???? ?????. So, for example, it is Halachically forbidden to purchase items seized by the Israeli ????? ????? debt collection enforcement or any other Israeli government agency. (Whereas the Gemara explicitly says that it would be permitted to purchase such items seized by a Goyish Malchus of any kind as long as they apply their own rules consistently.) It has nothing to do with how nice or ‘normal’ they are. They don’t have a Halachic mandate to make or enforce laws. Technically they are closer in function to Europe than Mexico, but that doesn’t change the Halachic bottom line.

AAQ: “2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.”

YYA: I hear what you are saying. The Brisker Rov actually quipped along those lines to R’ Amram Blau that he (R’ Amram!) was a ‘Zionist’, because in Russia he would never dare protest that way… But ???? ????? R’ Amram wasn’t a Zionist… and the Brisker Rov also held that we can and should ‘play the game’ and insist the Israeli government abide by their own rules whenever we can further the cause of ????? ?????? by doing so. This is not a contradiction to seeing wayward Jews as our brothers. There is a difference between the State and the people. We also never asked the government to be nice to us because they are our brothers… That line of reasoning won’t get very far in the Knesset.

Re. AAQ, SomeJew, and some others who have expressed the sentiment that: “who gives you the “right” to not be coerced by secularist? Are you free to demand that you have no nisyonos?” or “This is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.”

And other such pearls of wisdom… ?? ???

YYA: Without going into any other issues (please!), both of you miss the point (for different reasons). In Judaism no one has any ‘right’ to anything. Everyone has ‘obligations’ that if fulfilled protect all of the things modern legal systems attempt to protect through the institution of ‘rights’. It is assur to steal or cheat, which ensures ‘right’ to property. A husband has obligations towards his wife, and vice versa. An employer has obligations towards his employees, and again vice versa. Nothing is framed in terms of ‘rights’. Certainly no one has any ‘rights’ vis a vis the Ribbono Shel Olam, including ‘not having nisyonos’, especially since the whole point of being alive in Olam Hazeh is FOR nisyonos. Which of course always exist anyway. A Jew does have an OBLIGATION (again, not a right) to do everything he can to prevent being subjected to UNNECESSARY nisyonos. Since Israel claims to be a democracy and guarantees certain ‘rights’ for its citizens, we play them by their rules. [Which may or may not include voting, ask your LOR for guidance… But simply invoking ones ‘rights’ without voting is muttar ??? ??????.] The KGB and the Czars and the Medieval Kings also had rules, which we played as much as we could to enable us to keep our Yiddishkeit. That doesn’t mean we believe in the ideology of the Medinah any more than we believed in the ideology of the KGB. [Satmar doesn’t necessarily agree with the ideologies of the politicians they do business with in the US either ??? ??????.]

AAQ said: “you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.”

From a legal perspective that may be correct. (This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.) But from a Torah perspective ???? ??????? does not apply to anything that is against Torah [as defined by whichever Gadol/Rov you follow.] BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have ???? ??????? status, rather they are considered ??????, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.

For those who may be visiting or here by mistake, this is an Orthodox Jewish website, so please respect that.

mdd1 said: “YYA, I was just objecting to your assertion that “fighting is more honorable than being a pushover” has no mekor in the Jewish Hashkofah. That is all.”

Fighting for Hashem’s honor is not the same as fighting for one’s own honor. [Aside from the fact that the Rambam also isn’t saying what a king should do, only that he is permitted to do so. Can you find any examples from Tanach of a Milchemes Reshus done (by a righteous Jewish king) for no concrete ????? other than ?????? ?????] Fighting for a genuine Torah Malchus is Hashem’s honor. The wars of the Chashmonaim were Hashem’s honor.

The “virtue” of fighting in order to show one isn’t a “pushover” comes from Eisav, not from Yaakov. That’s where the secular Zionists got it from, and the RZ got it from the secular. Not from the Rambam…

mdd1 – “the kovod of Malchus Yisroel is an aspect of the Kovod of Malchus Shamaim. But was is it increased by fighting sometimes?!? Maybe it should be increased by being pushovers? That is my whole point.” ?? ???

YYA: That is the difference between “Malchus Yisroel” and “Golus”. Sorry to break it to you, but we are still in Golus, and “Israel” (at best) has no connection to “Malchus Shomayim”… When they are ???? ??? or have ????? parades etc. and they brag about it in international forums that is not any sort of glorification of Malchus Shomayim. They also are pushovers for whatever meshugas the Poritz Trump decides to do, even at the expense of Jewish lives. So ?? ???????

mdd1 – ???? ???? ???? if your understanding of the Rambam is correct altogether, as in ‘honor’ with no ?????. That still doesn’t mean that “going down fighting” is inherently more honorable from a Jewish perspective, particularly when compared to dying ?? ????? ??? in the classical Torah sense of the term, which is the subject of this thread.