Forum Replies Created
-
AuthorPosts
-
February 9, 2026 7:47 am at 7:47 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2509389Yaakov Yosef AParticipant
AAQ said: “i don’t understand. My argument is simple and has nothing to do with chilonim or goyim: you are openly taking advantage of others, making them protect you. This sounds like gezelah, aggravated that this is about taking life risks, not just money. There is no davening or learning that can override such aveiros. Sheretz byado. Rambam is pretty clear on that aspect of teshuva.”
YYA: If you genuinely think that all of the [otherwise quite different, but united on this issue] Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbes and Rabbonim who are opposed to their followers serving in the IDF are all gazlanim and tovel v’sheretz b’yado, and in need of ‘AAQ’ to teach them how to do Teshuvah, then maybe YOU need to do Teshuvah…
AAQ said: “So, if you have a choice between being a gazlan, doing something that you don’t think is allowed and leaving, leaving is the ehrliche Torah answer.”
YYA: You are again using weasel language. Choice 1 is ‘being a gazlan’. No less. 100% certainty. So says AAQ. Choice 2 is ‘something you don’t THINK is allowed’, despite a broad consensus of Torah leaders agreeing that it is in fact not allowed. Do you understand what is wrong with this?
AAQ said: “you are openly taking advantage of others, making them protect you.”
YYA: How do the Chareidim ‘make them protect (us)’? By being born here? Simply by existing? Where is the מעשה גזילה? When is the חלות of the din gezeilah? This is a real ‘Bombeh Chiddush’ you were mechadesh here, that it’s possible to be a גזלן [of נפשות no less, not just money] without proactively doing anything. Not simply בהיתירא אתי לידו, rather not אתי לידו altogether. Can you bring me ANY examples from Gemara, Rishonim, Achronim, Poskim, that such a thing exists?
Do you hold that someone who fails to pay ‘protection’ money to the [Jewish?] Mafia is a ‘Gazlan’? Because the mafioso decided that I owe him money therefore I do? And he is ‘protecting’ me, isn’t he? Maybe even risking his life [in fights with the other mafia gangs] more than a soldier. Because a government [‘democratic’ or otherwise] decides something is so, therefore that creates a genuine Torah chiyuv even במקום איסור? [“איסור” in לשון הקודש is “something you think is wrong” in weasel language.]
This is why we need real Gedolim who make decisions based on Shas and Poskim with real rules and real sechel [not to mention Siyata Di’Shmayah], not simply gut feelings and boich sevaras. If you think you are wiser than them, so זאל זיין געזונט, this is just becoming a waste of time.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSomeJew said: “In what world do you really believe that this is really Iran behind these “agents”? this could easily be the Zionist government as well as it could easily be completely fabricated from top to bottom.”
YYA: I’m no fan of the Israeli government or Zionism, and they certainly are capable of fabricating or exaggerating cases against people they want to get rid of, (including their own Prime Minister), but it doesn’t make sense for them to take a random Yungerman from Beit Shemesh who no one ever heard of, and send him to jail for three years ‘just so’. They also arrested several Chiloni soldiers, which from their perspective is a much bigger problem, because soldiers have access to actual information about the army.
SomeJews said: “So, I don’t think the argument should be “does this help Iran” as that just follows lockstep with the zionist propaganda that Iran is an enemy of the Jews, when rather they are an enemy of Israel (and the non-Jewish “West”.
YYA: ממה נפשך, even לשיטתך, if the Zionists are behind this, then making a tumult about this helps the Zionists scare Yidden. If the Iranians are behind this, then it helps the Iranians scare Yidden. The point was that there is zero positive toeles from publicizing the name of the Yid from Beit Shemesh who was caught up in this mess.
Yo do also realize that as far as Iran is concerned, all Yidden living in Eretz Yisroel are ‘Zionists’, even אם תמצי לומר that they don’t hate the Yidden who live elsewhere.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – Re. ‘Escalating game’
That would make sense if these dopes had access to any sort of classified anything. But they don’t. Especially the Chareidim who don’t even serve in the army. You would think the Iranians would know that from reading YWN… They also don’t have the slightest inkling how to hide their tracks, especially digitally, and the Iranians apparently didn’t bother to help them. So, unless the Iranian spy masters are complete idiots, the only logical explanation is that the ‘tumult’ is itself the goal.
Re. Lashon Hara
The courts do whatever they do, we don’t exactly have control of that. I was questioning the toeles, and even the Halachic permissibility, of posting the name here on YWN or similar forums.
February 6, 2026 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2509177Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “Let’s put Devorah aside…”
YYA: Maybe there is a difference between a Neviah answering questions על פי הדיבור as a Hora’as Sha’ah (something that happened twice in the entire history of Klal Yisroel) that she was commanded משמים to do, as opposed to 20 year old girls teaching 18 year old boys? Does co-ed high school also evoke comparisons to Tanach in your opinion?
AAQ said: “The rest is a tactical question of chicken and egg – can charedim start cooperating and help bring kosher Israel faster or will you be waiting for someone else to deal with the problems and will join only when it is safe. Whole Chumash is about being leaders in solving issues, not waiting until someone else will create a perfect environment for you.”
YYA: It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim. If we can be mekarev some Yidden then wonderful, but that isn’t a heter to fudge ANYTHNG in Yiddishkeit. I am not a Tzedoki, so I don’t know how to read out of Chumash any Heter to do anything not approved by Gedolei Yisroel, who also can read Chumash… By the way, the people clamoring for Chareidim to “cooperate” are not interested in a “kosher Israel” either, so you are trying to make a Shidduch between two sides that have no interest in it.
February 6, 2026 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2509167Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ Re. Haskalah
You said “everyone was Frum in Lita until SUDDENLY everyone stopped”. I pointed out that it DIDN’T happen SUDDENLY out of nowhere. That’s all I meant. Whether the Maskilim are to blame depends on whether you believe in Torah or להבדיל, in Hegelian or other schools of philosophy that believe in the “sweep of history”. We believe each person has Bechirah and cannot blame Zeitgeist. But please, let’s stay on topic.
February 5, 2026 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2509118Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “I understand you are taking offense of my suggestion to leave the country. This is purely a socratic argument here. You plan to take advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate. You propose a payment that they find insufficient. Then, don’t use the service. You can live in EY outside of Medina.”
“When you live under Poritz and have a chance to live in a normal country, you need to move. See Rambam/desert. Any commentaries there that discuss whether and how is EY different in this aspect?”
YYA: First of all, open up the Rambam and read what he said: (Hilchos Deios beginning of Chapter 6)
דֶרֶךְ בְּרִיָּתוֹ שֶׁל אָדָם לִהְיוֹת נִמְשָׁךְ בְּדֵעוֹתָיו וּבְמַעֲשָׂיו אַחַר רֵעָיו וַחֲבֵרָיו וְנוֹהֵג כְּמִנְהַג אַנְשֵׁי מְדִינָתוֹ. לְפִיכָךְ צָרִיךְ אָדָם לְהִתְחַבֵּר לַצַּדִּיקִים וִלֵישֵׁב אֵצֵל הַחֲכָמִים תָּמִיד כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּלְמַד מִמַּעֲשֵׂיהֶם. וִיִתִרַחֵק מִן הָרִשָׁעִים הַהוֹלְכִים בַּחשֶׁךְ כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא יִלְמֹד מִמַּעֲשֵׂיהֶם. הוּא שֶׁשְּׁלֹמֹה אוֹמֵר (משלי יג כ) “הוֹלֵךְ אֶת חֲכָמִים יֶחְכָּם וְרֹעֶה כְסִילִים יֵרוֹעַ”. וְאוֹמֵר אַשְׁרֵי הָאִישׁ וְגוֹ’. וְכֵן אִם הָיָה בִּמְדִינָה שֶׁמִּנְהֲגוֹתֶיהָ רָעִים וְאֵין אֲנָשֶׁיהָ הוֹלְכִים בְּדֶרֶךְ יְשָׁרָה יֵלֵךְ לְמָקוֹם שֶׁאֲנָשֶׁיהָ צַדִּיקִים וְנוֹהֲגִים בְּדֶרֶךְ טוֹבִים. וְאִם הָיוּ כָּל הַמְּדִינוֹת שֶׁהוּא יוֹדְעָם וְשׁוֹמֵעַ שְׁמוּעָתָן נוֹהֲגִים בְּדֶרֶךְ לֹא טוֹבָה כְּמוֹ זְמַנֵּנוּ. אוֹ שֶׁאֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לָלֶכֶת לִמְדִינָה שֶׁמִּנְהֲגוֹתֶיהָ טוֹבִים מִפְּנֵי הַגְּיָסוֹת אוֹ מִפְּנֵי הַחֹלִי יֵשֵׁב לְבַדּוֹ יְחִידִי כָּעִנְיָן שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (איכה ג כח) “יֵשֵׁב בָּדָד וְיִדֹּם”. וְאִם הָיוּ רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים שֶׁאֵין מְנִיחִים אוֹתוֹ לֵישֵׁב בַּמְּדִינָה אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן נִתְעָרֵב עִמָּהֶן וְנוֹהֵג בְּמִנְהָגָם הָרַע יֵצֵא לַמְּעָרוֹת וְלַחֲוָחִים וְלַמִּדְבָּרוֹת. וְאַל יַנְהִיג עַצְמוֹ בְּדֶרֶךְ חַטָּאִים כָּעִנְיָן שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ירמיה ט א) “מִי יִתְּנֵנִי בַמִּדְבָּר מְלוֹן אֹרְחִים”:
He is clearly not talking about oppression, Poritizm, etc. The issue is associating with the wrong crowd. Which is EXACTLY why joining the IDF is a complete non-starter. (Aside from gilui arayos, chilul Shabbos, and other ‘pitchifkes’ that don’t seem to bother you too much.)
Now let’s talk about “taking advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate”. There are about half a dozen main arguments why Chareidim, myself included, do not feel any guilt about this whatsoever, some of which have been discussed, but I don’t have time to waste draying a kup arguing with you back and forth about the merits of those arguments. It’s enough to go straight to the bottom line. Which is:
The whole point of life is to do רצון השם יתברך ולדבקה בו. This is done by learning and keeping the Torah.
Including: Halacha, Mussar, Hashkafa, Chassidus, Middos, Ahava, Yirah, Kedushah, Taharah, Deveikus, Bein Adam LaMakom, Bein Adam Lachaveiro, Lifnim Mishuras Hadin, Minhagei Yisroel, Gedarim uSeyagim, Mentchlichkeit as defined by Torah, being normal and healthy and well balanced as defined by Torah, Fifth Shulchan Aruch, etc.
Not including: What the Chilonim will think of us, what the Goyim will think of us, how it will look in the New York Times, the latest theories of the apikorsim, “ethics” as defined by non-Torah sources, worrying about things Hashem doesn’t want us to worry about, the secular ‘flavor of the month’, Never Again TM, Jewish Pride TM, what the scientists say, what the politicians say, what the askonim say, what the Coffee Room says, etc.
[Please don’t nitpick about the details of the lists, yes there are gray areas, I think the general message and flavor is quite clear…]
So, how do we know what to do? We ask our Rabbeim. Not by reading pashkevilim or ‘Frum’ magazines or websites. By finding a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshivah and asking and listening and most importantly Davening for Siyata DiShmaya. Who is qualified to ask? Try to find someone who dedicates his life to serving Hashem and helping others to also do so. Someone thoroughly familiar with all aspects of Torah including everything on List A. Preferably someone who comes from the Mesorah your family comes from, but that is less מעכב on issues other than straight Halacha and Minhag. And most importantly Daven for Siyata DiShmaya.
Since my Rebbe Muvhak said not to go to the IDF, and the Rov who I currently ask my questions in Halacha and Hashkafa to says not to send my sons to the IDF, so for me the issue is closed. Since there is basically wall to wall consensus on this in the entire Chareidi world, so for all of us the issue is closed.
If that upsets you or anyone else, zei gezunt and be happy. Nothing personal. I’m just not interested in spending more time debating endlessly about the IDF. Which is actually why I started this thread on a different topic.
February 5, 2026 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2508876Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said:”> Because before there was a medinah and an IDF the Maskilim, Zionists and Secularists just loved us.
this is over the top. this is not current Israel.” עד כאן
YYA: This is very much relevant, because the hate you think you can solve will never go away. Just like antisemitism. It is because of what we ARE, not because of what we DO.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – For goodness sake, no one is interested in forcing Satmar to vote, and no one ever will be. Can you figure out why? And the fact that they stay completely out of politics and TAKE NO MONEY from the Medinah makes them immune to any pressure that could be applied to others. [Their birth rate is also even higher than the ‘regular’ Chareidi birthrate, without help from government money…]
February 5, 2026 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2508875Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “Conservative movement in US was very strong 40% of population – and now it is not, they just stopped having children and enthusiasm towards the ideology.”
YYA: שיקרא לא קאי, what is the surprise?
AAQ said: “Everyone was “frum” in Lita contrary to Germany – until suddenly everyone stopped.”
YYA: Ever heard of the “Haskalah” movement?
AAQ said: “If you continue ignoring social and ideological problems with charedism, you are making your community weaker, not stronger.”
YYA: That’s basically what the fox said to the fish… Our Gedolim care more and know better than you do.
AAQ: “t is more predictable that Israel will have observant majority – if you add RZ, stam observant and traditional Yidden together.”
YYA: By that definition there may already be a majority. But Chareidim are growing far faster than any of those groups, except for the far right of the RZ who are becoming more Chareidi…
AAQ: “Then, it will not be kashrus out of Ben Gurion’s sentimentalism, but because knesset will consistently vote for it.”
YYA: Sentimentalism?! ימח שמו וזכרו, he was sure Chareidim would be gone within 10-15 years so he was willing to be a ‘good sport’ to keep the religious quiet while he shmadded 900K Sephardim and “accomplished” other goals of his.
AAQ: “Will we all be able to run the country together in an erliche way, or we will continue squabble?”
YYA: When it comes to matters of Yiddishkeit, Chilonim are not part of “we”, and our differences are not “squabbles”.
AAQ: “Ehrlich is about obligations to the others.”
YYA: Not in Judaism. Ehrlich in Judaism encompasses the totality of what Hashem wants from us. “Obligations to the others” derive from the Torah and are limited by the laws of the Torah. For example, we cannot help an old Chiloni lady be מחלל שבת even when it looks very mean and the Chilonim don’t understand what we are doing. In fact, if we could, we would give her סקילה which doesn’t look so nice or democratic.
AAQ: “will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?”
YYA: Women instructors for men, or women in the army altogether, is אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות. With or without sheitels. Kashrus is literally the least of the problems in the IDF. Hallel on Yom Ha’atzamot? For what exactly?
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantHappy New Year said: “Torah is legal. Not ruchniyus. Ruchniyus is for goyim.”
Halacha is the ‘legal’ part of Torah. There is endless depth in Torah, both in learning and observance, above and beyond simply ‘being yotzei’. But it all has to fit inside the framework of Halacha. “Ruchniyus” without Halacha is for Goyim (and is also fake.) Ruchniyus within Halacha is very much for Jews. Learn the famous first Ramban in Parshas Kedoshim to find out more.
Happy New Year said: “Sometimes we are Doresh Taamey dikra. Machlokes when. But usually not! (Maybe on a D’rabanan. But not a D’oraysa)”
No need to go that far. Women covering hair is actually a D’Rabanan according to most Poskim. But dressing provocatively (which encompasses many other trends and issues aside from shaitels), even if ‘technically’ not assur in terms of ערוה, still may involve multiple issurim D’Oraysa, including, ironically, לפני עוור לא תתן מכשול.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipant1. There is a lot to be said for the anti-Sheitel side. Baruch Lesin summarized the core issues well.
2. Technically, for purposes of permitting one to make a bracha or say Krias Shma in her presence, any sheitel does the job.
3. As has been pointed out, in America until fairly recently the choice usually wasn’t ‘shaitel or tichel’, rather ‘shaitel or nothing’.
4. Which is why most Ashkenazi (and even some Sephardi) Rabbonim encouraged sheitels in the past, and most still don’t oppose them (within reason.)
5. It is very important for a married woman to look as good as she can for her husband. So if anything, save the best sheitel for home.
6. A 75 year old lady wanting to look 50 (or 25) is basic human nature, and there isn’t anything anyone can do about it.
7. למעשה, ask your LOR who knows your background and understands what your wife (and you) can handle.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. P/N and Satmar.
Thank you for clarifying. I am not Satmar or close enough to Satmar to be able to definitively say what they really hold on the ‘ground level’ so to speak. That said:
1. Being confronted with a ייהרג ואל יעבור choice on the individual level due to ‘Shevuos’ issues לכאורה cannot occur as long as Israel stays a democracy.
2. As far as the legitimacy or lack thereof of the IDF and its actions, even when clearly P/N, no one is asking Satmar, and Satmar probably wouldn’t answer them if asked. So where do you see ‘real life’ P/N?
3. Since at least the leaders of Satmar presumably understand this, so any wording to the contrary is לכאורה rhetoric. Does anyone seriously think anyone will be forced to vote on pain of death? Or even join the IDF? So why do the ‘pashkevilim’ contain ייהרג ואל יעבור or similar language? אלא מאי, it means “this stuff is totally non negotiable under any circumstances.” Which is enough to negate any possibility of compromise. מה שאין כן drafting girls which is literally and Halachically ייהרג ואל יעבור because of the possibility of [problems] without consent on their part ר״ל [something that frequently occurs in the IDF and is swept under the rug.]
February 4, 2026 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2508504Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “So, you are now abandoning attempts to defend your position and return to proclaiming your inalienable right to be free from Zionist yetzer harah. Let me try to accept your position for a minute. Then, the erliche way would be to either leave the country or to seek mechilah from those who risk their life to defend yours, while you do not want to/not able to (there is a chabad story about chasidim telling a balgula that they “cannot” help him push the horse out of the mud, and he replying – “you can, you just dont want to”). Try to compensate with some other activities, while admitting that it is never a full compensation – organize volunteer help with army supplies; work in place of soldiers (this might require getting a college degree); babysit their children; visit soldiers in hospitals – do this en masse, and maybe you’ll get some acceptance.”
YYA: You keep insisting on turning every thread into a debate on Chareidim and the army. Please stay on topic or start yet another new thread to review the same arguments over and over again. You may want to read this, unless you already read it and ignored it:
Dati Leumi Rabbanim: “IDF Is Violating Orders; Bnei Yeshivos Will Boycott Armored Corps”
AAQ said: “your inalienable right to be free from Zionist yetzer harah.”
YYA: I already explained that this has nothing to do with rights. Hashem gave us a Torah and commanded us to not do certain things or put 18 year old boys in a position where they will be at risk of doing those things. We will do whatever we have to do, legal or otherwise, to keep the Torah that Hashem gave us. If you think you understand the Torah differently, then no one is telling you or your children what to do.
AAQ said: “Then, the erliche way would be to either leave the country or to seek mechilah from those who risk their life to defend yours, while you do not want to/not able to”
YYA: “Ehrlich” is defined by Hashem and His Torah. Not by your personal sensibilities. 18 year old boys and girls serving together is not ehrlich. Every single attempt to create some sort of ‘kosher’ army unit failed, due to the IDF brass gradually reneging on their promises, or being ‘forced’ to do so by the Supreme Court. Every. Single. Attempt. Ever. Comprende? That isn’t ehrlich. Telling 15% of the population to leave the country or violate their faith isn’t ehrlich. It also would be suicidal for Israel, which is the actual subject of this thread. If you think that what you are saying is something normal to say, then tell whoever has problems with the Chareidim to leave the country. They or their children probably eventually will leave anyway.
AAQ said: “Try to compensate with some other activities, while admitting that it is never a full compensation… yada yada… do this en masse, and maybe you’ll get some acceptance.”
YYA: No one is looking to “get some acceptance” from the poritz. As if this is the reason (some of) the Chilonim hate us. Because before there was a medinah and an IDF the Maskilim, Zionists and Secularists just loved us. Only afterwards they suddenly started to hate us… The chicken and the egg.
AAQ said: “There are reports that the new army regulations for charedim was done with approval of Beltzer and Karlin. So, if at least their followers will join this, we will see in a year or two, whether this approach works for both sides. Some progress,”
YYA: You again fail to understand the foileh shtick of Israeli politics, although the game has been explained here before. Don’t hold your breath waiting to see Belzer soldiers…
But the real bottom line is the line this thread started with. The future belongs to the children, and the children belong to the Chareidim. The tipping point has already been passed on both sides in their respective directions. Which is why all other Chareidi/Chiloni issues are ultimately moot.
February 3, 2026 7:48 am at 7:48 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2507324Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ Re. your back and forth with Reb Mutche.
This has been beaten to death again and again. (Aside from the fact that you again got the numbers and facts drastically wrong, but that isn’t נוגע.) No one has the right to force bochurim into a situation where they will inevitably be subjected to [the things we have repeatedly discussed.] Period. End of discussion. They can’t put us all in jail or kill us. And whatever else they may try to do to us now will set a legal precedent for what our grandchildren will legally be able to do to their grandchildren… The politicians already understand this. The main problem is the Supreme Court and AG. It’s easier to remove nine people from power than to have a civil war, even if only one side has guns. They don’t want to look like Iran.
February 3, 2026 7:48 am at 7:48 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2507323Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – Re. source of ליסטים Psak
This opinion is widely known בעל פה in the name of the Chazon Ish through his Talmidim, although he didn’t write it in his Sefer. The Shevet HaLeivi clarified that this doesn’t in any way permit proactively stealing or damaging property already בחזקת the Israeli government. Some of the laws would ex post facto apply anyway as מנהג המדינה, קנין סיתומתא, הסכמת הקהל, and other Halachic categories (the details of what is and isn’t covered is beyond the scope of this forum.) However, from a Torah perspective, a bachur not serving in the IDF is in no way a ‘criminal’.
February 3, 2026 7:48 am at 7:48 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2507320Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.”
YYA: There can be good kings (Shapur wasn’t elected democratically) and bad ones, or good elected leaders and bad ones. On a purely utilitarian level, the main difference between an autocracy and a democracy is the speed and extent to which things can move in either a good or bad direction (or both), due to not being slowed down by checks and balances.
AAQ: “Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …”
YYA: True. Although the Emperor had significantly more power than the President of a constitutional republic, and in some places (including in that same Gemara לאו אורח ארעא לזלזולי במלכותא כוליה האי) he is referred to as a ‘King’, despite the checks on his power. (Contrary to popular belief, ancient kings in general didn’t always have completely unlimited power, and had to deal with rules, traditions, and political intrigues.) Imperial Rome actually operated as a form of oligarchy where a ruling class of wealthy and connected families with representatives in the Senate chose the Emperor and other key posts from within their ranks.
AAQ: “Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?”
YYA: On a practical level, once the option became available, republics and democracies (without getting into the differences) were and are usually the best places for Jews to live. With some very big exceptions… It’s also worth noting that the Roman Empire worked quite effectively (for their purposes) as a “proven political model” for more than double the amount of time the USA has existed, so time will tell…
AAQ: “1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.”
YYA: Truth be told, I regretted mentioning Mexico as soon as I sent the comment (although they seem to have a full blown listim-ocracy down there in the literal sense), because it confuses what I was trying to say. The term ‘ליסטים’ in this context means strongmen who seized power illegitimately. This is based on the premise that any non-Torah government of and by Jews, certainly inside Halachic Eretz Yisroel, does not have the Halachic legitimacy of דינא דמלכותא דינא. This is the opinion of mainstream Chareidi Poskim הלכה למעשה. So, for example, it is Halachically forbidden to purchase items seized by the Israeli הוצאה לפועל debt collection enforcement or any other Israeli government agency. (Whereas the Gemara explicitly says that it would be permitted to purchase such items seized by a Goyish Malchus of any kind as long as they apply their own rules consistently.) It has nothing to do with how nice or ‘normal’ they are. They don’t have a Halachic mandate to make or enforce laws. Technically they are closer in function to Europe than Mexico, but that doesn’t change the Halachic bottom line.
AAQ: “2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.”
YYA: I hear what you are saying. The Brisker Rov actually quipped along those lines to R’ Amram Blau that he (R’ Amram!) was a ‘Zionist’, because in Russia he would never dare protest that way… But הלכה למעשה R’ Amram wasn’t a Zionist… and the Brisker Rov also held that we can and should ‘play the game’ and insist the Israeli government abide by their own rules whenever we can further the cause of שמירת המצוות by doing so. This is not a contradiction to seeing wayward Jews as our brothers. There is a difference between the State and the people. We also never asked the government to be nice to us because they are our brothers… That line of reasoning won’t get very far in the Knesset.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantSACT5 – Thank you for your thoughtful post. First of all, I deliberately did not address my comment to anyone specific. I actually had another (much more problematic) commenter in mind as well. This is however a ‘Frum’ site, not a ‘Kiruv’ site. [Of which there are some excellent ones.] In other words, a ‘safe space’ where Frum people [probably including quite a few teenagers and young adults and others not holding by Kiruv yet by any standard] can read news and engage in dialogue without being exposed to shmutz or kfirah. This is not the ideal place to go to find out more about Judaism, and using it that way would likely be counterproductive for both the visitor and the ‘locals’. The tone of some of the comments posted also leaves me wondering whether ‘v32itas’, ‘rescue’, ‘flamingOTD’, etc. are looking to learn or to ‘teach’ ודי למבין… ‘rescue’ is correct that it isn’t my job to be the policeman, that’s why there are moderators. However, they don’t necessarily have time to go through each and every post thoroughly, so they do rely on assistance from users. These issues have been brought to the attention of the moderators, and one thread seems to have been deleted.
February 2, 2026 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2507125Yaakov Yosef AParticipantRe. AAQ, SomeJew, and some others who have expressed the sentiment that: “who gives you the “right” to not be coerced by secularist? Are you free to demand that you have no nisyonos?” or “This is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.”
And other such pearls of wisdom… עד כאן
YYA: Without going into any other issues (please!), both of you miss the point (for different reasons). In Judaism no one has any ‘right’ to anything. Everyone has ‘obligations’ that if fulfilled protect all of the things modern legal systems attempt to protect through the institution of ‘rights’. It is assur to steal or cheat, which ensures ‘right’ to property. A husband has obligations towards his wife, and vice versa. An employer has obligations towards his employees, and again vice versa. Nothing is framed in terms of ‘rights’. Certainly no one has any ‘rights’ vis a vis the Ribbono Shel Olam, including ‘not having nisyonos’, especially since the whole point of being alive in Olam Hazeh is FOR nisyonos. Which of course always exist anyway. A Jew does have an OBLIGATION (again, not a right) to do everything he can to prevent being subjected to UNNECESSARY nisyonos. Since Israel claims to be a democracy and guarantees certain ‘rights’ for its citizens, we play them by their rules. [Which may or may not include voting, ask your LOR for guidance… But simply invoking ones ‘rights’ without voting is muttar לכל הדיעות.] The KGB and the Czars and the Medieval Kings also had rules, which we played as much as we could to enable us to keep our Yiddishkeit. That doesn’t mean we believe in the ideology of the Medinah any more than we believed in the ideology of the KGB. [Satmar doesn’t necessarily agree with the ideologies of the politicians they do business with in the US either ודי לחכימא.]
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantThere are plenty of Goyish, secular Jewish, and even specifically ‘OTD’ websites out there. Anyone who doesn’t respect the ground rules of Orthodox Judaism doesn’t have to hang out on this site. It has nothing to do with anything personal. להבדיל, if one of us would start posting on a website catering to members of a different religion things against their religion, THAT would be rude.
February 2, 2026 11:39 am at 11:39 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2506693Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said: “you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.”
From a legal perspective that may be correct. (This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.) But from a Torah perspective דינא דמלכותא does not apply to anything that is against Torah [as defined by whichever Gadol/Rov you follow.] BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have דינא דמלכותא status, rather they are considered ליסטים, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. Pikuach Nefesh
As far as I have ever seen in his Seforim or four biographies I have read, the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל did not in any way suggest or desire the “dismantling of Israel” through “actions of the nations and their intervention” (מעשי האומות והתערבותם) [the approximate לשון used] which “would definitely create a danger to many Jewish lives”, but rather only בבקשת רחמים i.e. Davening. This was also part of the rationale behind his refusal to allow participation in any demonstrations involving “Palestinians”. [This is well documented, in print, in לשון הקודש and in English, despite the trolls and NK fan club claiming otherwise.] So, it is clear that (anyones’s rhetoric aside) whatever he held to be ייהרג ואל יעבור in theory or in practice did not contradict that. Another thing to consider is that the Divrei Yoel Davened with great intensity during all of Israel’s wars. When asked, he said “What is the other option, for the Arabs to win ר״ל?!”. This is also documented. That obviously doesn’t jive with holding no defense is permitted ex post facto. He obviously could not and would not explicitly be מתיר the actions of the IDF… As if they asked him anyway so מאי נפקא מינה? To kler chakiros that לו יצוייר they would have asked him what to do would he have assered ANY defensive action? Again, מאי נפקא מינה? I think a solid case could be made that the Divrei Yoel did not hold what you seem to think he held. So what did he hold was ייהרג ואל יעבור? Voting? Joining any Israeli anything? Possibly. I don’t think anyone is shooting Yeshiva Bochurim for not going to the IDF, or anyone for not voting, so again I’m not sure if there is a נפקא מינה to any of this.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantFor those who may be visiting or here by mistake, this is an Orthodox Jewish website, so please respect that.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. ייהרג ואל יעבור and the Medinah
If that was meant literally, then that means he held of his יישוב of the Maharal הלכה למעשה. The Divrei Yoel had the right to learn pshat however he saw fit. He also knew how to read the Shulchan Aruch. There were other Poskim who disagreed (at least with this part of his Shittah.)
What about the fact that Israel and its actions create Pikuach Nefesh for Jews outside of Israel? When Jews are killed in Australia or France in the name of Jihad against Israel, even though they have nothing to do with Israel, why isn’t that part of the equation of Pikuach Nefesh that needs to be dealt with? The Israeli government has repeatedly (and cynically) tried to use these incidents to encourage “Aliyah”… So לשיטתם Pikuach Nefesh is apparently a מצוה התלויה בארץ… One of the main reasons Satmar gives for their protests in Chutz La’aretz is to show that Israel does not represent all Jews, and not all Jews necessarily identify with Israel, therefore there is no reason to randomly attack Jews anywhere in the name of ‘Palestine’. Something they hold has potential to save Jewish lives.
I am not aware of any normative Satmar Chassidim who protest or lobby in favor of the US cutting off military aid to Israel. The (fake) “NK” were kicked out of Satmar long ago and do not have the backing of either Satmar Rebbe or any major Rov.
January 31, 2026 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2506158Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 said: “YYA, I was just objecting to your assertion that “fighting is more honorable than being a pushover” has no mekor in the Jewish Hashkofah. That is all.”
Fighting for Hashem’s honor is not the same as fighting for one’s own honor. [Aside from the fact that the Rambam also isn’t saying what a king should do, only that he is permitted to do so. Can you find any examples from Tanach of a Milchemes Reshus done (by a righteous Jewish king) for no concrete תועלת other than להגדיל שמעו?] Fighting for a genuine Torah Malchus is Hashem’s honor. The wars of the Chashmonaim were Hashem’s honor.
The “virtue” of fighting in order to show one isn’t a “pushover” comes from Eisav, not from Yaakov. That’s where the secular Zionists got it from, and the RZ got it from the secular. Not from the Rambam…
January 29, 2026 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2505495Yaakov Yosef AParticipantVayidomAharon – If you “literally do not know what I am talking about”, then it wouldn’t be funny, would it?
January 29, 2026 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2505484Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 – “the kovod of Malchus Yisroel is an aspect of the Kovod of Malchus Shamaim. But was is it increased by fighting sometimes?!? Maybe it should be increased by being pushovers? That is my whole point.” עד כאן
YYA: That is the difference between “Malchus Yisroel” and “Golus”. Sorry to break it to you, but we are still in Golus, and “Israel” (at best) has no connection to “Malchus Shomayim”… When they are מחלל שבת or have תועבה parades etc. and they brag about it in international forums that is not any sort of glorification of Malchus Shomayim. They also are pushovers for whatever meshugas the Poritz Trump decides to do, even at the expense of Jewish lives. So מה הועילו?
January 28, 2026 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2505284Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel – Re. Rhetoric vs. PN
I don’t have a good answer for your question. My gut feeling is that if and when push comes to shove I don’t think Satmar would proactively do anything that drastic. Although the increasing fear of such a possibility may put pressure on the Israeli government to behave themselves on matters of Yiddishkeit and Chareidim inside Israel.
January 28, 2026 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504917Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 – צריך עיון גדול if your understanding of the Rambam is correct altogether, as in ‘honor’ with no תועלת. That still doesn’t mean that “going down fighting” is inherently more honorable from a Jewish perspective, particularly when compared to dying על קידוש השם in the classical Torah sense of the term, which is the subject of this thread.
January 28, 2026 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm in reply to: Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach #2504918Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel – ‘Rabbi’ in English has multiple interpretations, some fit him more than others… So it is a good way to not be מחניף and still allow plausible deniability…
January 28, 2026 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2505015Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 – Re. Rambam
This is aside from the fact that the Kovod and שמעו of a genuine Halachic King who is the executive embodiment of the עם השם and represents the מלכות of Hashem on Earth is directly tantamount to כבוד שמים as in מלך שמחל על כבודו אין כבודו מחול, because his Kovod isn’t his own, rather it is the Kovod of Hashem. Any comparison between this concept and the IDF is a complete non-starter.
January 28, 2026 8:29 am at 8:29 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504771Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. Pikuach Nefesh.
I hear what you are saying. On a practical למעשה level, I don’t think anyone holds that anything we discussed is a Heter to ignore an actual immediate PN scenario. Both on the individual level, such as Hatzalah for Chilonim even on Shabbos and even without considerations of איבה etc., and also on the tzibbur level. The reason people permit themselves to speak this way is because they know no one is asking them either way what Israel’s military policy should be. So it becomes a matter of internal polemics where precise definitions and guidelines are less critical. If by some miracle the Matka”l would convene a panel of Satmar/Eidah Rabbonim to seriously listen to their input on למעשה level decision making, I think you would hear a very different tune (which would still be very different than current Israeli policy, but fully grounded in Halachic and practical reality.)
Another related but different issue is how much of what is bandied around as “pikuach nefesh” really meets that definition, and to what extent is IDF tactical and strategic policy based on pikuach nefesh as opposed to other considerations. Take for example something that has been in the headlines for the past few days. The return of the dead ‘hostage’. Jewish lives were risked, and in other similar episodes Jewish lives were lost, in order to return a dead body for proper Jewish burial. This is something that has no Halachic heter whatsoever. Simply an emotional reaction which is more prevalent by Chilonim, because death and burial are among the few things they associate with religious emotions. Yet somehow this is all self-understood and even celebrated, even among Frum Jews, which shows the extent foreign Hashkafos and emotions have seeped in.
Bibi in particular excels at creating a constant atmosphere of “pikuach nefesh”, in order to distract from the many problems he doesn’t have solutions for and to scare people away from voting for Left-wing politicians. (Which may be good for us too politically, but it isn’t a heter to drag a war on forever and get soldiers killed.) So, you are right that this doesn’t make pikuach nefesh less important, but it begs one to think more critically about what actually is PN and what isn’t.
January 28, 2026 8:29 am at 8:29 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2504756Yaakov Yosef AParticipantReb Mutche – The truth is that privately many non-Frum Israelis admit that this is true, and even (begrudgingly or not) admire the Chareidim for this. It’s poshut common sense that raising an average sized family by Frum standards involves a far greater commitment than serving in the army for three years and then moving on with your life. I live in Israel in a ‘mixed’ neighborhood. My neighbors from across the street are a Chiloni couple in their seventies who raised five children (which was more than the norm but still not rare for Chilonim of their generation.) We have a good neighborly relationship, although we don’t talk politics, and they definitely do understand why this issue is important. Unfortunately, the younger ‘Z’ generation of Chilonim is drifting further away from any שייכות to Jewish ideas and values, and they don’t necessarily even think in these terms.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantv32itas – I don’t know what translation you are using, but you seem to be confused by it. You would do yourself well to buy an Artscroll Chumash, and even better a set of Artscroll Rashi translated. “The Living Torah” translation by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan is also an excellent resource. The terms you listed are synonymous.
January 28, 2026 8:29 am at 8:29 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2504589Yaakov Yosef AParticipantVayidomAharon – You need to train better. If Ms. Ayelet Hashachar sees your ‘brilliant’ post she’ll fire you.
January 28, 2026 8:29 am at 8:29 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504586Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – As I have tried to explain many times, ‘Chareidi’ is primarily an attitude and value system, not the external ‘results’ of that value system. You also seem to keep identifying all Chareidim with the Litvish subtype, or conflating ‘Chareidi’ with ‘Kollel Yungerman’, although they are two different things. That said, if EVERYONE will be Chareidi (or perhaps more accurately some sort of ‘critical mass’), so then most of the reasons for avoiding certain endeavors and occupations etc. will no longer be relevant. So it will be easier for those Chareidim so inclined to pursue at least some of the options you mentioned.
Before, during, or shortly after that ‘critical mass’ is reached, the Supreme Court will absolutely need to be removed from power ‘by any means necessary’. Their toxic and divisive influence cannot be overstated, and they do everything to prevent any sort of rapprochement between the different groups in Israeli society, especially when it comes to the Chareidim.
I also believe that the more ‘Chareidi’ side of the RZ world will grow in numbers, resulting in a shift of the RZ balance in favor of R as opposed to Z. (For the same reasons described in the post on demographics.) That group already has doctors, professionals, etc., and will continue to produce them. At any rate, I’m not worried about a shortage of doctors or engineers in Israel in the foreseeable future. Unless everyone goes into high-tech, which is a totally separate problem… At any rate, I think this will somehow develop as an organic process of growth, together with the numbers.
These are my personal thoughts only, I don’t speak on behalf of any specific group or Shittah.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel said: “it was on the widely held belief that SR holds that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot”
IMHO, a careful reading of the ויואל משה inside does not bear that out.
January 27, 2026 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504509Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 – Re. Rambam
In today’s terms that may be what is called ‘deterrence’. Milchemes Reshus can only be initiated by a Halachic King, with the approval of the Sanhedrin. What does that have to do with anything after the Churban Bayis Rishon?
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach #2504247Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDear Qwerty.
I do apologize if I offended you.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach #2504246Yaakov Yosef AParticipantTo Qwerty
Since I am not Lubavitch why would I be presumed to think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach until I explicitly say I don’t? But for the record, yes, it is factually incorrect and very dangerous Hashkafically (maybe even Halachically) to say anyone is Moshiach, certainly someone no longer alive, such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל. That doesn’t give anyone a היתר to speak disrespectfully. The most ever מותר for people like us to say would be “Rav Shach זצ״ל said X”. Or maybe not even that. A new Sefer just came out from a close talmid of Rav Shach זצ״ל called בסערת אש. It contains many interesting שיחות and הנהגות. Once someone spoke badly in front of Rav Shach about Rabbi Goren (of mamzerim fame). Rav Shach asked him to stop. He asked why, seeing as Rav Shach was one of the most outspoken opponents of Rabbi Goren during that episode. He said “Yes, it was necessary to speak. But we already spoke enough.” So there are limits to this sort of thing.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2504241Yaakov Yosef AParticipantFor those inclined to question what is the point of all this, a few thoughts:
1. The basis the Supreme Court has always used for striking down every attempt to legislate the Chareidi/Yeshiva exemption is that it ‘discriminates’ in favor of one particular group. (Never mind that in theory no one is stopping Chilonim from opening ‘Yeshivos’ and asking for deferrals. A law that says ‘if you do X you are exempt from Y’ is not discriminatory even if in practice 80% of the population would choose not to do X.) It would make sense to factor into army service laws things like being married before age X, or having Y kids before age Z, resulting in abbreviated service or options to do civilian public service etc.
2. From this perspective It is also incredibly dumb to cancel child care subsidies. Aside from the fact that they are primarily punishing the wife (who is anyway exempt) for her husband’s “crime”.
אלא מאי, why don’t they think this way? Because the פן ירבה aspect is actually something the anti-Chareidi chevra are looking to stop… But they don’t do anything to fix their own broken demographic trend. The Chareidim actually have ‘Efrat’, which is a Chareidi organization whose sole purpose is to save Chiloni babies… Think about that for a second. Chareidim, for themselves, don’t need the services of Efrat at all. But they pay for it and volunteer for it. Is there any comparable Chiloni organization that ONLY helps Chareidim? [Efrat has nothing to do with Kiruv and doesn’t in any way mix into the lives of these children when they grow. They do their עבודת קודש simply so that these Jewish babies should live.]
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2504233Yaakov Yosef AParticipantujm – Probably, but that is a general worldwide trend. I suspect though that the most religious Muslims (and therefore the most Jihad oriented) have a higher rate. The publicly available data doesn’t break down the Arab statistics by how religious they are.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive. #2504232Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – This isn’t a social contract (although in a funny sort of way you could call it a de facto ‘division of duty’ between religious and secular), it’s just reading the data and recognizing reality. No one sat down and planned it should be this way. In fact years ago when secular Israelis were more idealistic (about their ideas, but they believed in what they were doing) it was more common to see Chiloni families with four or five kids, something that almost doesn’t exist in today’s generation.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504174Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ said “absolutely, but we also should not go to another extreme and denigrate something just because anti-religious people started it.”
YYA: The problem with Zionism is not simply that “anti-religious people started it”.
AAQ: “If you find common positions with Israelis who are not charedim but are observant, or traditional, or even non-religious but not anti-religious, then those remaining anti-religious attitudes will be marginalized. These are not 1950s any more.”
Absolutely true. But there are certain lines that cannot be crossed.
AAQ: “When I asked the speaker later in private – his take was that yichud and such can lead to irreversible tragedies, comparing with limited damage from nezikin [I am not commenting]”
YYA: He does have a point… That isn’t a reason not to learn and be careful with דיני ממונות or הלכות שבת. Just a reason to be extra careful with הלכות יחוד, something many Rabbonim have pointed out.
AAQ: “How do you explain pages of Gemorah explaining medical cures and safe travel instructions? Was it to provide medical parnosah to students or because the rabonim genuinely cared for their health? about being careful how you dispose glass pieces? about tzadik (or tzadekes?) that provide shovels for funerals? [yes, it says that learning gets bigger zechut].”
YYA: You correctly answer your own question. Being careful with all of these things is part of what the Torah teaches us. That is part of גמילות חסדים which is one of the pillars of the world and a big part of Torah itself. As the Ba’al HaTanya and Reb Yisroel Salanter are both quoted as saying: “Someone else’s גשמיות is my רוחניות.” You don’t need to spend 10 years of your life on medical school and residency and specialization etc. in order to do Chessed.
AAQ: “Do you think developing missile defense or brain surgery are less of a chesed? Just try to disassociate this from zionism or secularism of colleges and look at the issue itself.”
YYA: Potentially these things could be chessed, and someone who for whatever reason chose that career path could do his work with genuine כוונה to do chessed (which would certainly make him a better doctor, maybe even a better missile defense contractor). We could disassociate this from Zionism and secularism, but not from college… In the case of the brain surgeon, huge amounts of college. You don’t need to go to college in order to do chessed. And there are plenty of Goyim out there who are surgeons or missile designers etc. If Israel will become so Chareidi that they will need davka Chareidi surgeons for lack of any others, then long before that the colleges will be cleaned out from shmutz… More likely Moshiach will come first and ועמדו זרים ורעו צאנכם.
AAQ: “I think I know where you are going, but I don’t fully agree, maybe needs to be re-phrased. Hashem created all these interesting things around us – surely, not for us to ignore, but to apply our Torah approach to the world. While I agree with your “accusation” that I am repeating my own opinion on Charedism, I found a similar view in R Soloveitchik in 1950s: ,if we claim to have knowledge of the world from Hashem, then we should not be hiding in the caves, but rather engage with the world.”
YYA: Simply being alive in a physical body with physical needs and having a wife and kids and supporting them etc. (without davka going to medical school for 10 years) is enough “engaging with the world” to be יוצא according to the Torah.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504170Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel:
First of all, thank you for clarifying your point. You started off asking about pshat in the Maharal according to the ויואל משה, so forgive me for misunderstanding where you were going.
You, me, and everyone on YWN are not part of any “decision making process” WRT the future of Israel and the IDF. So we don’t need to “make decisions” on that subject based on Pikuach Nefesh or anything else. We do need to make decisions about our own Hashkafah and behavior, which is why I focused on the Hashkafah aspect as opposed to the practical aspect of what Israel should do. לכאורה the IDF isn’t going anywhere in the immediate future, unless it gets replaced by the army of Moshiach.
That being said, הלוואי the people who do make decisions for the IDF should keep פיקוח נפש of Jews at the top of their list of priorities. Not politics, not honor, and not risking living soldiers to ‘rescue’ dead soldiers.
January 27, 2026 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2504169Yaakov Yosef AParticipantmdd1 Re. War with Ammon:
I wasn’t self-assured that I remembered the exact sequence of events, so I opened up Sefer Shmuel and checked. Thank you for referring me to Divrei Hayamim. I checked there (DH 1, perek 19, posuk 8) and although there are some additional details, the Jewish attack is clearly framed as a preemptive response to Ammon mobilizing their forces for an attack. Which says something about Dovid HaMelech’s military strategy, but is not an example of “fighting for honor”. Aside from the fact that when a new head of state (Chanun ben Nachash) takes charge of the country next door (which had an on and off history of hostility that continues down to today), and the first diplomatic delegation sent to him is physically assaulted and abused, that says something about his intentions more than simply being an affront to “honor”. We see that Dovid HaMelech was not averse to staging a preemptive strike when he held it was necessary.
WRT Keren HaTorah, is that my personal kovod that you accuse me of being “self assured”? I am assured that Hashem will not abandon the Yeshivos, who are the home of some of His most loyal Yidden, who deserve to be assured more than me. If the support will come from this campaign or the next one or from some other source, is for Hashem to take care of. Don’t worry, the Yeshivos aren’t going anywhere.
January 26, 2026 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503936Yaakov Yosef AParticipantFar more Goyim were killed by the Nazis than Jews, despite their countries having armies.
January 26, 2026 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503845Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel said: “but closing up shop as you say …. the ‘gesheft makes no sense’ ….. is equal to …. inviting clear mass pikuach nefesh permanently tenable or not tenable … is language to be used only when discounting the RBSHO chvsh rabenu yonah [shar gimmel] writes that the hiyuv of bitachon includes the ‘carrying of yeshuat hashem belevavo’
YYA: Seriously, do you think that Bibi et al “carry Yeshuas Hashem bilvavo”? So what are they thinking? Do they even think they have a long term strategy of any kind? We obviously do not discount the Ribbono Shel Olam ח״ו. They do. So how on Earth do they think the IDF will protect Israel forever?
This is not a thread about “dismantling Israel” or the IDF, or what Israel’s military strategy should be. I don’t see any point in discussing those issues, because no one asks us our opinion anyway. What this thread is about, which is very נוגע to us (to avoid), is the culture of lionizing the IDF and ‘sheepizing’ the real Kedoshim of all the generations (as well as the misguided set of priorities and values that leads to such an attitude.) Which is the core of Zionism. The attitude that “Jews were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army yada yada.” Something that is not only כפירה גמורה, but is also wrong במציאות too.
Israel (via the IDF) usually does an OK job of cleaning up its own mess, or putting out the fires that it started, or whatever mashal you want to use, minus 20,000 or so Jewish lives lost over the last 78 years. Vastly more Jews than were killed EVERYWHERE ELSE PUT TOGETHER over the same period of time. Contrary to popular belief, there were many 78 year intervals during the Tekufah that we didn’t have an army when fewer Jews were killed. So מה הועילו חכמי חעלם בתקנתם? Can we safely disband the IDF now that we’re stuck here? No, we cannot. Are the poor kids sent to be cannon fodder possibly to save Jews and possibly to keep Bibi in office or other considerations doing a Mitzvah? Maybe. But they are dead. Why is this idiotic מצב anything to be proud of?
Yankel Berel said: “the same One who carried the jews in EY in His embrace for the last 80 years in the face of overwhelming odds can … and will …. continue to carry them , so whether some countries do or do not have nuclear weapons is really irrelevant to the final outcome”
YYA: I don’t understand your thinking. ממה נפשך – If you aren’t a Zionist, so what changed 80 years ago? Before then Hashem didn’t carry the Jews in His embrace? Yes EVEN DURING THE HOLOCAUST. More on that in the next paragraph. So what did the IDF or Israel in general add to the equation? For the secular who don’t rely on Hashem’s embrace, only on the IDF, then it takkeh does make no sense… So what are they thinking?
As for the Holocaust, the IDF would have done no good whatsoever. More SOLDIERS were KILLED fighting the Nazis than the TOTAL NUMBER of IDF soldiers who ever existed, even if the soldiers from ’48 would still be alive and combat ready today… 6,000,000 MORE Russians (22,000,000!) were killed in WWII than the entire Jewish population of the world at the time. It is a joke to think that the IDF could have stood up to the Nazis. Pathetic non-starter. If a nation with the scientific, technological, financial, and manpower resources of Germany would want to eliminate Israel and only the IDF would be in its way, על פי דרך הטבע the odds would not be good.
So, bottom line: Israel will do whatever they do. The IDF will do whatever they do. No one is closing up shop or trying to do so. The poor kids slaughtered like sheep usually succeed in temporarily ‘mowing the grass’ and hopefully at least get a Mitzvah. Those who are still alive to thank we do thank. The Israeli leadership past and present get absolutely zero credit for ‘saving’ Klal Yisroel. This whole bloody mess is nothing to be proud of. I sit together with six million Jews between electrified barbed wire fences and the Mediterranean Sea and yes, indeed, אין לנו על מי להישען אלא על אבינו שבשמים. And I am very proud to be part of the עם השם who keep the chain of קבלת התורה going, and I hope all Jews everywhere will also “share the burden” and get with the Ribbono Shel Olam’s program. במהרה בימינו אמן.
January 26, 2026 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm in reply to: Who is really a Gibbor? Who is really a Kadosh? #2503661Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel said: “imagine the attack of 7 october … WITH NO IDF at all …. who would stop those barbarians al pi derech hateva ???”
Without Israel or Zionism there would be no REASON for the attack in the first place… The arsonist firefighter…
Will post more IY”H later.
Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel Berel Re. Maharal
You asked me for how the ויואל משה explains pshat in the Maharal. That’s what I wrote. The wording of the ויואל משה doesn’t suggest he agrees הלכה למעשה that the שבועות are ייהרג ואל יעבור, and he admits that the Maharal is a Chiddush, and even adds additional kashes on the Maharal. But then your Kashe is on the Maharal, not on the ויואל משה. Siman 157 is a very short siman on a very big topic. There are many more relevant and realistic (for the time of the Mechaber and Ramah) scenarios not spelled out there, or even in the Meforshim on the ‘daf’. And the bottom line is that as we both agree there are bigger problems with Zionism than this.
January 26, 2026 10:04 am at 10:04 am in reply to: Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach #2503567Yaakov Yosef AParticipantDear Dr. Qwerty Seeker of Truth.
If you are genuinely unbiased and unswayed by anything but the objective truth, so why do you “hate his [i.e. my] guts” (an איסור דאורייתא) for saying the EXACT SAME things as Shimon Katz? Unless you are offended by the tone I used, which has nothing to do with the truth or fallacy of anything I said. So you may be more vulnerable than you think to being mistaken about what is or isn’t true…
-
AuthorPosts