Yaakov Yosef A

Yaakov: I’m very aware of the history. – But you neglected to mention that for some strange reason, the first time NK publicly associated with the Arabs was davka AFTER R’ Amram left… Nothing to see here.

And the NK was quite “radical” (in the sense how hamon hoam defines radical in these regards) under the leadership of Rav Amrom.

Why the need to qualify “radical” with additional peirushim? Ela mai…

It didn’t suddently flip within five years after Rav Amrom withdrew from the leadership.

Sure it did. There were people looking to get rid of R’ Amram זצ״ל already beforehand, and they used his marriage to a giyores as an excuse to do so.

There are quite the stories of Rav Amrom himself.

About his willingness to sacrifice himself, not to sacrifice others… A little difference goes a long way…

Btw, if you search the UN website you can find documents from the NK petitioning the UN in the 1950s to take away Israeli sovereignty and place the Holy Land under international control and UN protectorate.

That would be a continuation of the De Haan negotiations of the ’20s, and the negotiations with King Abdullah in ’47. Not what the PLO was looking for, certainly not what Iran is looking for now.

AAQ – translating back into yinglish: he quotes chazal that sometimes my teachers did not; and I disagree with his logic emotionally and I am looking for the logical argument to present.

The Gedolei Hador know all the Chazals that you quote, and then some, yet for some reason they don’t agree with you… So, yes, you very often can be caught processing the words of Chazal through your own ‘boich sevaros’…

Axiom: when all gedolim of one generation gather on one street of Yerushalaim and daven together, Moschiach will come [anybody knows the gemora page? It might be in Sanhedrin.

Do not know what you are talking about. Maybe you think there is some Tzaddik Nistar hiding in a cave somewhere who agrees with your Hashkafa? So you don’t have to listen to 99% of the Gedolei Hador? Don’t think so. If Hashem doesn’t wan’t the Geulah yet who can force His hand?

mdd1 – Ya’akov Yosef, you are insane.

Thank you. For what reason do you say so?

mdd1 – I meant that the non-Chareidim can cancel all the monetary support and so on and so forth. And so, the Chareidim might be forced to negotiate, Comprendo?

The State’s “monetary support” for the Yeshiva World is overrated. Most of the money comes from private donations. Since this has been going on already for a couple of years, the private donations have increased to cover loss of government money. There are quite a few rich Chareidim, if you don’t know. Satmar orbit mosdos never took government money to begin with. That ship has sailed without the Chareidim.

What is actually going on now, if you didn’t notice yet, is the use of criminal sanctions against Yeshiva Bochurim. That also won’t work, because you can’t arrest 80,000 people and disenfranchise 20% of the population.

The Gedolei Yisroel will continue to lead us, not the YWN peanut gallery.

AAQ – OK, OK, even as you are going overboard with Russian army caring of soldier safety …

Sure they cared about the safety of their own soldiers more than they cared about their enemy’s civilians, as does the US Military, and every army worldwide except for the IDF.

So, maybe time for the bayonets in yeshovos.

Been there, done that, in the time of Chizkiyahu Hamelech. Not feasible at present.

ujm – How, exactly, is today’s NK any more radical than Rav Blau’s NK that (to take one of numerous examples) protested together with Yasser Arafat’s PLO against Israel in front of the UN? That occurred during the lifetimes of both Rav Blau and the Steipler Gaon.

You are aware that R’ Amram Blau זצ״ל left Yerushalayim and the leadership of the NK when he remained in ’65, are you? That approximately was when they began going downhill. The passing of R’ Velvel Brisker זצ״ל five years earlier, combined with their sidelining of R’ Amram, left them without any responsible adults in the room. The letter was addressed to his “colleagues in Yerushalayim”, that doesn’t hint anything to you? How much do you even really know about the history of NK? If you did your homework you would understand the absurdity of your question.

AAQ – Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.

So what? Serving with girls and chilonim and being mechalel Shabbos is what will help us make the grade?!

Last line cut off:

Not even Curtis Sliwa and the Guardian Angels…

mdd1 – it is not a question of what I or you would like. It is a question of which deal it will be possible to work out.

This is a very krum line of reasoning that is heard constantly from דעת בעלי בתים in discussions of this sort. Torah and Mitzvos have nothing to do with “what you or I would like”, and ממילא it is NOT a question of “which deal it will be possible to work out”. We are מושבעים ועומדים מהר סיני, regardless of personal preferences. This isn’t a business deal. There is no room for sacrificing Yiddishe Neshamos for the sake of the Holy IDF, even if there IS room for endangering Yiddishe bodies רחמנא ליצלן. (The safety of our soldiers comes before the safety of enemy civilians according to Halacha, and להבדיל every form of law except for Israeli Bagatz Progressive perversion.) I would not hesitate to send my sons to a real Jewish Torah army to do the Mitzvah of Hilchos Milchamah, but I would not send them to an Israeli shopping mall (for kedusha reasons), let alone to the IDF. This is completely separate from the debate on Zionism etc. On this issue there is no difference between Satmar and Rav Yitzchak Yossef, or anyone in between. Most but NOT all RZ do follow your line of reasoning, and that shows in the results…

The title of this thread is exceedingly gross. Better to start a new one just to stop seeing this disgusting title every day. BTW, it also doesn’t make sense. The first two “Reichs” weren’t antisemitic, and no other country except for Oestreich ever called it’s government by that name.

mdd1 – There are many other such stories.

Tell me some more of them, I’m waiting… I actually checked it out, there are at least eight documented cases of people who fell from planes without a parachute and survived, including a flight attendant who’s plane was BOMBED cruising at over 30,000 feet… So never say never… But that isn’t the way to go. Show me eight people who became baalei teshuvah BECAUSE of the IDF…

Derech agav, near death experiences often stimulate people to think about the meaning of their lives. That has happened in the IDF, in the Russian Army, in vehicle accidents, and many other scenarios. That is also probably what happened to your friend. That doesn’t mean the IDF service itself made him a Baal Teshuvah… If anything, the credit goes to Hamas or Hezbollah, or whoever was shooting…

AAQ – Look at this debate – it is enough for one minor event (demonstration) lead to people putting away niceties and start putting statements saying that the other side is against the Torah.

I am not emotional about this at all. I don’t know or care who you are in real life, and you can think whatever you want gezunterheit. All I was trying to point out is that when ALL of the major Gedolei HaTorah are on one side of an issue, and you are on the other side, you may want to think about why that is so. What do you think about a hypothetical scenario where ALL the major medical associations recommend vaccinating children against measles, and some wise guys who post on social media hold differently… So they should go open a new medical organization for people who think they are doctors, and dispense medical advice according to their own lights? Why is it that when it comes to gashmiyus you understand that is absurd, but when it comes to chayei olam every schmendrick with a keyboard is entitled to an opinion?

ujm – Why don’t YOU here and now share with us which alleged sources YOU are aware of, as you claim, WRT the shittos of the Steipler and the Chazon Ish regarding the Neteurei Karta and HaRav Amrom Blau ztvkl.

Because we aren’t talking about the NK of Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל. You keep on going back to the same bait and switch. Anything positive the Steipler זצ״ל said about the NK goes back to that tekufah. No connection whatsoever to the current incarnation of NK. The Chazon Ish and the Steipler were not NK, to put it mildly, even then, although they held of the personal tzidkus of R’ Amram. Seeing as the overwhelming majority of Gedolei Yisroel, maybe all of them, certainly those who follow the Shittah of the Chazon Ish, COMPLETELY reject the antics of today’s NK, the burden of proof is on you, not on me, Yankel Berel, or anyone else.

ujm – I don’t know who they are. What was the extent of their kesher with the Steipler? What rabbinical/rosh yeshiva position do they hold today? What exactly, in their words, did they hear from the Steipler? All other sources I am aware of WRT the shittos of the Steipler, his brother-in-law the Chazon Ish, and the entire Chazon Ish orbit (and there are MANY sources available both living and in print), DO NOT agree with you. Part of your problem is that you automatically take any statement of anti-Zionism in theory, that any Gadol ever said, and extrapolate it ad absurdum until it becomes NK. That is what happens when you don’t follow a living Mesorah, and that is how the NK themselves deteriorated to the sorry state they are in.

AAQ – שתהיה בריא, by “hishtadlus” I didn’t mean the “Iron Dome” and such. I meant the entirety of the Israeli situation. Yes, the Iron Dome works about 85% of the time, and has enough ammo to last for a few weeks at most, as we and our enemies now know… But that too is just a temporary patch. It doesn’t resolve the core issues or guarantee anything going forward.

mdd1 – Ujm, I personally know an Israeli who went to the army frei and came out a Ba’al Teshuva in a black yarmulke. Etc.

And I know of a bochur who was trafficked as a slave to an Egyptian house of depravity, eventually was framed and sent to jail for 12 years, and emerged as one of the greatest tzaddikim of all time… I don’t know what color Yarmulke he wore. What is your point? There is at least one documented case of a woman who fell more than 10,000 feet from a plane that broke apart and lived to tell about it. Do you want to try that too?

Chaim87 – Gedolei Yisroel don’t agree with you. That is why they are opposed to joining.

Everyone currently Chareidi I know who served in the IDF (including many Baalei Teshuvah) also don’t agree with you.

Even many honest RZ who I know also don’t agree with you. The difference in Shittah with RZ is mainly how much risk/damage is “acceptable” to “pay the price” for the fake Geulah. Many of those RZ who don’t accept the secular State as “Geulah” are also in line with the Chareidim on this issue. There is also a political action group of wives of RZ servicemen who try to remedy the גילוי עריות situation in the IDF.

You said – “Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So it’s like what came first the chicken or the egg?”

Your Saifa shlugs up your Raisha. If the matzav there is so Ehrliche, so why do davka those with one foot out the door run there? No one said there are NO Ehrliche people there, but the general matzav is decidedly not conducive to that, to put it mildly. There were heartbreaking shailos of Mesirus Nefesh from soldiers conscriptied to the Russian Army and other goyish armies. During the Russo-Japanese War of 1906 and WWI there were in fact “tons of very frum ehrlicha groups” forced in there. That doesn’t mean that the Russian Army is a place for a frum boy. (There also were no girls in the army then, which is the real issue now.)

בכלל, the whole line of reasoning you use is krum. Yosef Hatzaddik went through terrible nisyonos and emerged greater than he ever would have been had he not been there. So send every Joe to endure such nisyonos, because you CAN remain ehrliche if you really want… כמה יוסף איכא בשוקא?

Next item – “Or maybe it’s just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?”

First of all, halevai that all the chevra in America who “work with goyim and shiksas too” should themselves be Ehrliche. From reading the comments on YWN, which is already a filtered space, you can easily see the טמטום הלב in action. Where do you think that comes from? They didn’t get their krum hashkafos from the Yeshivos they went to back in the day. Second of all, which is really first of all, a workplace is something one joins of his own volition, and can choose to leave if the matzav gets too problematic. An army by definition is not like that. The relationship between a commanding officer and his soldiers is not like that of a boss and his employees. Also, a normal boss typically is not interested in pushing an ideological agenda, the IDF most certainly is.

The bottom line, which was also the opening line.- this is up to the Gedolei Yisroel to decide. I see how strong YOU are in your Yiddishkeit by your total disregard for that, so please don’t teach us how to “stay strong with our yiddishkiet”.

No one said, at any point, that we are on a level where no hishtadlus is necessary, or that there is no need for hakaras hatov towards the actual soldiers. (Hint – the ones making the most noise against the Chareidim are not the soldiers…)

The core issue here is that “hishtadlus” does not permit גילוי עריות and going OTD. This has much less to do with learning Torah, than it has to do with keeping Torah. In the Litvish language “learning Torah” is a code word for all of Yiddishkeit. לצורך העניין, the Chassidish and Sephardim are speaking Lithuanian.

On the Chiloni side, the ones pushing this issue do not have the interests of the IDF at heart. They are out to “bring the Chareidim into the Israeli mainstream”, which is dog whistle language for OTD.

What we have here are two sides who know full well what they want and why, and what the other side wants and why, but they can’t say what they really mean, (from the Chareidi perspective for the very reason you started off with…) so they use code language.

I don’t know what the Gedolim hold the point of the “march” is, but my best guess is they are trying to show that this issue is dear to too big a segment of the population for the AG/SC dictatorship to disenfranchise. In this context “Atzeres Tefilah” is code language for “no violence”.

By the way, if it is so much easier to be a Chareidi than to be a soldier, and the whole Chareidi thing is just about taking the easy way out and “not wanting to sacrifice”, so why don’t the Chilonim who don’t like the army go become Chareidim? Who is stopping them? אדרבה, let all the Chilonim (and especially all the girls) leave the IDF to go to Yeshiva (and Beis Yaakov or Neve Yerushalayim or something) and learn how to live as Jews, and then ONLY Chareidim (who never interrupted between Tefillin Shel Yad and Shel Rosh…) will serve in a real Halachic army…

The reality is that no other segment of Israeli society sacrifices more for what they believe in than the Chareidim do. Even among those who serve in the IDF, most are not active combat soldiers. Which also means that once they finish their three year stint, they do little if any Miluim. Being a real Chareidi is a life commitment, that encompasses every aspect of one’s life, for the entire duration of one’s life.

ujm – Cut the nonsense. Stop playing stupid. Go ask any living talmid of the Steipler you can find what he held about the post-R’ Amram Blau NK, which answered and answers to zero Daas Torah whatsoever. By 1970 R’ Amram זצ״ל was not in control of NK. This letter is as relevant to the contemporary NK as the Teshuvas HaRashba is to the Kashrus of any contemporary butcher store.

AAQ – This isn’t about “complaints”, this is about life itself as Torah Jews. That is how Gedolei Yisroel of the Litvish, Chassidish, and Sephardim, as well as a few honest RZ leaders, all see this issue. Things have been tried, but the IDF doesn’t take the Chareidim seriously, and the SC does everything to prevent any solution. The IDF of 2025 is not the Haganah of 1948 (which wasn’t so great either), and is certainly no semblance of a real Jewish Army. If you still don’t get it, I can’t help you.

somejew said – because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.

Satmar itself begs to differ with you. They don’t demonstrate with Arabs, and sharply criticized some of the antics of the bogus Neo-NK. So why do you insist on being more Satmar than Satmar? Think about it for a second. If nothing else was wrong with NK, other than thinking that ONLY they are real מאמינים, and all of Klal Yisroel are kofrim/mesisim ח״ו, then that alone would be the biggest proof that THEY THEMSELVES are kofrim, because they cut themselves off from the entire ציבור and don’t believe in any living Torah authority or Mesorah. Letters from 70 years ago won’t help here.

ZSK – (2) the tendency to regard Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidish Rebbes as pope-like figures who can perform miracles, if not outright deification of those Rabbonim.

The idea of Emunas Chachamim goes way back before there was a ‘pope’, and doesn’t involve ‘deification’. I didn’t know that popes are believed to work miracles, but you may know more about Christianity than I do. I’m not interested in debating someone convinced he is smarter than the vast majority of Frum Jews, who do believe in some form of Emunas Chachamim, and certainly in the Zohar, but suffice it to say that even actually believing in Roshei Yeshivos as miracle workers doesn’t violate any of the Ikkarim, or any issur of any kind TTBOMK. By the way, why are you so protective of the honor of Rav Kook זצ״ל, but permit yourself to use grossly disrespectful language (hate, short temper, etc.) with regard to the Satmar Rebbe זצ״ל? How much do you really know about the life, actions, and Middos of the Divrei Yoel? Or Rav Kook himself for that matter, who would never use such language. Because two or three mentchlichkeit-challenged commenters constantly hang themselves on their erroneous understanding of the Satmar Rebbe’s shittah doesn’t give anyone a hetter to be מבזה תלמידי חכמים.

בקיצור נמרץ, the most basic meaning of Emunas Chachamim is that there is a special Siyata Dishmayah bestowed upon the Torah leaders of every generation, above and beyond their intellectual greatness, to help them teach us Ratzon Hashem. What that includes, and who that includes, is subject to debate, but denying that such a thing exists altogether may very well be ‘heretical’. קסם על שפתי מלך במשפט לא ימעל פיו משלי טז, י. See what Rashi says there. משפט and דין also include (at least) paskening shailos in issur v’hatter, and according to most any guidance in how we are to behave as Yidden. It is also possible that due to lack of zchus or a גזרה משמים that can’t be overturned, that there can sometimes be a lack of siyata dishmayah. (So don’t start about the Holocaust yaddah yaddah.) But in general, there is such a thing. It is NOT ‘infallibility’. There is a whole מסכת הוריות about that. But ‘failure’ in this context means lack of סייעתא דשמיא, to be remedied by Teshuvah, (and Korbanos in the time of the Beis Hamikdash when applicable), not that the system isn’t real.

By the way, according to the above, calling out as ‘heretical’ something accepted by the overwhelming majority of Gedolei Yisroel (including RZ!), such as some of the things on your list, may itself be heretical…