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Dear Yankel Berel, Non Political, and whoever else is interested.
I chose not to respond to Yankel Berel, despite the fact that in general I like most of his posts, and he likes most of mine (one other threads). The point is, that this sort of debate is inherently problematic. Not every Yankel and Yossel and anonymous מאן דאמר with a keyboard is qualified to decide on his own who is a Gadol and who is not, what is Kefirah and lehavdil what is true Emunah. Does anyone here have smicha to paken shailos in Halacha? Would anyone here consider himself qualified to give medical advice if that isn’t his profession? So why are we sometimes so quick to think that we are all qualified to pasken someone is a kofer ח״ו? I actually went to ask a שאלה what to do, and the Rov I asked told me that it’s better to stay away altogether from these kind of ‘chat rooms’, for a number of reasons, but most especially because it just becomes a contest who gets the last word, which is not good for middos, and also means that it’s very unlikely that anyone would be מקבל anything meaningful in such a context. This is aside from the danger of lashon hara, bizui talmidei chachamim, and other very real issurim that go out the window when everyone has to prove his point at all costs. I am writing this last post מצד דרך ארץ not to abruptly disappear and ignore those who I was conversing with.
דרך אגב – I am not ‘Yeshivish’, or Lubavitcher, I am a Chossid (of a different Chassidus), as I have said on other threads. My main Rebbe זצ״ל was among the many Gedolim who did hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am well aware that there were other Gedolim who held differently. By now basically everyone in Klal Yisroel who doesn’t live under a rock has is aware of both sides of this issue, and there really isn’t anything for people like us to add. If someone here is a שליח בית דין or otherwise acting upon the guidance of real דעת תורה, then ignore what I said. If not, think it over, maybe ask someone bigger, and choose what to do.
כתיבה וחתימה טובה, and all the best.
AAQ – My impression is that every negotiation with charedim usually negotiate for the various social benefits for the community, like paying for Nth kid more than for (N-1)st, etc.
The child subsidies battle was lost over 20 years ago, and was never seriously revisited since then. It was not a game changer for Chareidim, but possibly was for Arabs, although there were other factors involved.
AAQ – As a contrast, a lot of Mizrachi battles early on in Israel was about establishing religious institutions for the whole country.
If you are referring to the Rabbanut, that is something that started two decades before the State. We had a discussion a while back about who was behind that, what for, and whether it was a good idea. Mizrachi was in fact much more involved, why that was so is more complicated. The big battles during the beginning years of the State saw very much Chareidi involvement and Mizrachi silence. They had their reasons for not fighting, and some of them reverberate down to today’s disputes.
AAQ – YYA, you have a point, we are always stereotyping here, it is a nature of online anon discussion, thanks for reminding to keep it lower. I am mostly responding to the positions articulated here by posters and sometimes articles with pronouncements. I am obviously aware that not everyone thinks like that – and I welcome when someone says that, like you sometimes do! I do think that info we are getting reflects some of the reality.
I try. No one is perfect, as an individual or as a group, but the reality is that a lot of really good stuff is going on here, but news is all about “man bit dog” and clickbait. You do see here about one article about a Chessed organization for every 200 articles about politics and hafganot.
AAQ – Thanks for listing various organizations. So, back to the army topic – why not bring some of the army-related activity into negotiations – and into public statements.
Actually, various forms of “national service” were suggested at different points in the draft saga over the years. Sometimes tacit deals were put together, but always the Supreme Court and Company disqualified them.
ZSK and AAQ – ״משתכנזים״ is a different and more recent phenomenon of Sephardi bochurim from Chareidi homes who attended Ashkenazi Yeshivos and adopted Ashkenazi mannerisms and even minhagim. If it is מחזק them to do so, שיהיו בריאים/זאל זיין געזונט.
ZSK – You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach.
The Sephardim themselves certainly do, for the last five centuries. Just look at the list of famous Mekubalim over that period of time. I am curious about the Ramchal’s Siddur, if you have more information.
ujm – I don’t like the government of Israel, and certainly the historical Secular Zionist movement any more than you do. I do love the people here, and believe that most of them are closer to Torah and Emunah than you think. But the language you use makes it easy to avoid the real part of your message.
Yankel Berel – I prepared a detailed response to your post, but I am scrapping it, because I am not interested in fueling further back and forth on this subject that will inevitably lead to more ביזוי תלמידי חכמים. All of the ענוים and בעלי מידות of the coffee room can figure it out for themselves, without help from a “בעל גאוה” who for some reason doesn’t consider himself qualified to say דעות about someone many גדולים did in fact hold of, even if some others disagreed. כתיבה וחתימה טובה to all.
I’m somewhat amused at how those who say that “we can never know why the Holocaust happened” and similar comments, have no problem knowing why the State of Israel happened. The truth is, EVERYTHING is a ניסיון, and a preparation for Hashem’s end game. How exactly that will work is indeed something we cannot know in advance.
AAQ – I agree with most what you have (agreeing with me:), but I don’t agree with this last one. Sephardi chachamim indeed go great length to show uniformity and be seen as part of Israeli charedim. Still, the performative rejection of everything related to the country does not exist there.
That was exactly the point being made. Even the Sephardim, who are less opposed to the State per se, are working together with the Kanoyim (not just UTJ) on THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE, because it is NOT necessary to go as far as “rejection of everything related to the country” in order to be opposed to sending 18 year old boys to a “gender integrated” Progressive social engineering tool, that also happens to be an army. This has been explained here many times, not just by myself.
I am still waiting for anyone to present a coherent, logical, and practical alternative for maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, that doesn’t rely on the Chareidim.
Aliyah can be great for many things, but not for sustainable long term growth. The numbers are also nowhere near enough, despite enormous efforts, much money spent, and helpful organizations.
Google “Demographics of Israel”, read the various articles and surveys, and try to come up with something…
Without a Jewish majority, the IDF won’t have what to fight for altogether. And everyone knows it. Especially our enemies…
Gadolhadofi – I have six members of my extended family currently serving in Gaza, my son-in-law’s friend and next door neighbor was killed in action, as was the niece of a very close friend of my wife (she was a border guard who was killed in the initial attack), who’s husband davens in the same shul I do. So I don’t live under a rock or in a bubble. (Or in America for that matter…)
Forgot to mention the amazing work done by Rav Haber זצ״ל and Matnat Chaim. Dor Yesharim is another medical organization that started as a Chareidi initiative, and spread far beyond.
ZSK – This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
The connection to Lusatia goes back over 250 years before the birth of the Ramchal. The custom (and Halacha) was that individuals (as opposed to entire communities exiled together) who migrated to other countries adopted the local minhagim. So that, together with marrying into the local Jewish community for centuries, means that for all practical purposes he wasn’t much of a “Yekke”, just as the Shelah, Aruch HaShulchan, and Skulener Rebbe weren’t “Sephardim”
The piece about the Ramchal’s siddur is fascinating. Where did you see that? There is part of a מחזור for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur extant with handwritten glosses of the Ramchal, which were published. This is the first I’ve heard about a whole Siddur.
ujm – A large portion, indeed likely well over a majority, of current fully Torah observant Sephardim, are religiously observant under Ashkenazic influence. This includes them (or their parents/grandparents) having attended Ashkenazic Yeshivos, etc.
This is a complicated and sensitive subject, and the breakdown of the numbers depends entirely on how you define “fully Torah observant”. If you use an Ashkenazi Chareidi definition, then that’s called a “No True Scotsman” argument. (No Scotsman ever ran away from battle. Aye, Donald MacRonald did run away? He wasn’t a True Scotsman… = No truly observant Jew wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim, because anyone who wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim isn’t a truly observant Jews.)
If you define “observant” as Shomer Mitzvos in the basic sense, which is what most Sephardim were to begin with, then the vast majority cannot be credited DIRECTLY to Ashkenazi influence. (More on that below.)
ujm – A lot of this is the result of the Ashkenazic Torah world having strongly helped their Sephardic brethren remain strongly Torah observant during their transition from the Arab lands to Israel, when the State of Israel spent considerable resources in attempts to secularize the Sephardic immigrants.
This is very true, however unfortunately the number saved were dwarfed by the number lost. The entire Torah world then, less than five years after the Holocaust, was a small and impoverished שארית הפליטה, and not in a position to compete with the Mapai bosses, the Jewish Agency, the שומר הצעיר Kibbutz movement, and other קליפות who played a role in the Shmad.
What did happen, somewhat later on, is that many Sephardi parents who kept their Mesorah of יראת שמים, realized what was going on, and with great מסירות נפש sent their children to Yeshivos, which mostly (though not exclusively) were Ashkenazi. Usually Litvish, some Chabad. Those children in many cases grew up to become תלמידי חכמים who opened their own Sephardic Yeshivot and Talmud Torah, and were מחנך the next generation of Sephardi children, including many who didn’t come from observant homes at that time. There were also Sephardi חכמים who learned לכתחילה in the old Sephardi Yeshivot, such as Rav Ovadia and others, who sent their children to Ashkenazi Yeshivos, and they eventually opened Sephardi Yeshivot that synthesized some elements of the Ashkenazi Derech in learning. Rav Meir Mazuz זצ״ל, who recently passed away, learned by his father in Djerba, then in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva opened in Tunisia, where he became Rosh Yeshiva, and then he opened a Sephardi Yeshiva in Bnei Brak where he was מקפיד to follow the Tunisian דרך הלימוד.
While all of this was happening, many if not most Sephardim remained basically שומרי מצוות to some extent, despite the best efforts of the Zionists. They built Shuls which the vast majority of them attended, and they maintained their Minhagim and distinctive sincerity, Emunah, and legendary respect for חכמים. The products of the various Yeshivos mentioned became Rabbanim, Mechanchim, and Kiruv workers, who helped significantly raise the level of שמירת המצוות and Torah learning among the Sephardim at large over the last 40 or so years, so now it is much more common to see Sephardi Baalei Batim who are truly learned and מדקדקים במצוות. It is also important to note that Sephardim typically see the entire community as an organic whole, where everyone feels they belong even if not everyone is on the same level of observance, so it would be very hard to do an accurate breakdown of the numbers.
So, bottom line, it’s true that the מסירות נפש of the פעילים and others eventually bore fruit, and there is an Ashkenazi connection to much of the contemporary Sephardi Torah world, through different channels, most of them indirectly.
AAQ – I have $100 and you give me another $10. I still owe you $10 and gratitude.
Actually, the correct equation is more like – you take $100, and give me back $10 (or less). Still something if you legally take $100 from everyone equally, and give me a special rebate, however the Israeli government gives out subsidies for all kinds of things you never hear any noise about. There is a Ministry of Sports and Culture that subsidizes soccer games (on Shabbos of course, my tax shekels at work רחמנא ליצלן) and the Philharmonic Orchestra, among other causes. Why entertainment venues that sell tickets need cash handouts altogether is something you never hears anyone yelling about. IIRC, its budget is about 10X more than all government support of Yeshivos and Kollelim put together, and more than triple the entire Misrad Hadatot budget (some of which goes to support churches, again רחמנא ליצלן). Personally, I never took a shekel from the “Datot” as a matter of principle.
AAQ – this attitude turns off all of us who are observant but do not choose to follow your leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Please read this article thoroughly, then please share with me what alternative plan you have for maintaining a Jewish majority of any kind in Israel, and how to motivate anyone to implement your plan, that doesn’t involve “choosing to follow (Chareidi) leaders”. I have been waiting for over a week. Got a few בזיונות from Gadolhadofi, one התחמקות from ZSK, but no serious, coherent answers.
AAQ – If you plan for the charedi army in, say, 30 years, you need to send enough high school students to study physics right now.
Considering that since the beginning of the war in Gaza about a sixth of the soldiers killed were due to ‘friendly fire’ and accidents, maybe you can offer some suggestions to the IDF on how to train their soldiers better RIGHT NOW, instead of worrying about how the Chareidim will do so in the future. Perhaps they can put more emphasis on safety training, and less on progressive ideology, more emphasis on recognizing physical reality when choosing in which roles to place new recruits, and less on “gender integration”. The Torah also teaches us that protecting our soldiers safety is more important than protecting “innocent” Gazans… 18 year old kids didn’t have “decades” to prepare for anything. Tech infrastructure, R&D know-how, Iron Dome, nukes, etc., that were built over decades, aren’t going to disappear and require rebuilding from scratch. Be that as it may, without Chareidim, Israel would soon enough become the fourth Moslem majority nuclear power, after Pakistan, France, and the UK…
Haleivi – I was expecting a response from those who seem to think it’s OK to be מבזה someone they think may be a Kofer. They did write back with the usual circular reasoning. In reality, the most that is EVER permitted לתועלת is למיחש מיבעי, which לכאורה doesn’t include “qwertying” anyone.
Dear user176,
I also strongly disagreed with the disgusting title of this thread, and the irrelevant hate language. But posts like yours also make the mistake of confusing ideology with people. To clarify:
“A hiloni loving in Israel who loves Hashem and every Jew is your brother whether you like it or not.”
Absolutely. Although those people don’t usually call themselves “Chilonim”, but “Masortim” meaning “traditional”. There are more of them then there are real “Chilonim” (who also are our brothers whether THEY like it or not…)
“and may very well sit in the front row in olam haba.”
I am not in charge of Olam Haba, but תינוק שנשבה doesn’t create זכות, only mitigates liability. Someone who is מחלל שבת is probably not going to be in the “front row in Olam Haba” AS HE IS NOW. However, if he lives in Israel, he is statistically far more likely to have a תיקון eventually by himself of his children/descendants becoming בעלי תשובה. The “Secular” Israelis, at least over 80% of them, especially the Sephardim, are also far more connected to Judaism than Secular Jews in America, who nowadays basically know nothing and have over 50% intermarriage. There is a small minority (which used to be bigger) of real רשעים. Tinok Shenishba DOES NOT excuse being חוטא ומחטיא etc. The founders of the state in many case were not even תינוק שנשבה by any stretch.
“Do you shake a lulav without aravot?”
Again correct, but you have to know what is an Arava and what is an Etrog, and not confuse between them. One can and must do that without calling anyone Fourth Reich etc.
“There is constructive criticism l’toelet and their is destructive all encompassing vitriol against swaths of Am Yisrael.”
Again absolutely correct.
“It is so blatantly obvious that the current State of Israel is the foundation and preparation for Mashiah.”
The two World Wars definitely were preparation for Mashiach, and the Chofetz Chaim and others said so, that doesn’t give credit to those who perpetrated them (the real Second and Third…) Everything, including Trump, Putin, and the weather, is a PREPARATION for Hashem’s ultimate goals. The FOUNDATION for Mashiach is Torah, Mitzvot, and Teshuvah.
ZSK – I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.
ZSK – I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai and Rav Ovadia both have large and distinct groups of people who do everything according to their שיטות. The Chida is probably the most frequently quoted mid-era Sephardi Acharon, but I don’t know of any group who follows his פסקים exclusively.
ujm – Is anyone here familiar with the migration trajectory of Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc.? As in, which came from Eretz Yisroel, which from Bavel, etc. And where the separation formed between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and others.
The Jewish communities of Iraq and Iran most definitely came from Bavel. The Jews of the island of Djerba, in Tunisia, claim descent from two Mishmaros of Kohanim who were exiled there from Eretz Yisroel at the time of Churban Bayis Sheini. Seeing as Djerba was geographically isolated from the Goyish urban centers, did not get chased repeatedly from place to place like most other kehillos in Golus, and was a major מקום תורה for centuries, they preserved their Mesorah unusually well. The Yemenite Jews were there since Churban Bayis Rishon. Interestingly, certain Teimani minhagim are similar to old Ashkenazi minhagim (the square Kesher Shel Rosh being one example.) Since the last time our ancestors met was probably at the Aliyah LaRegel in the First Beis Hamikdash, that shows an amazing continuity of Mesorah. The first Jews in Western Europe, including both Ashkenaz and Sepharad, were probably those exiled there by the Romans. Afterwards it’s possible some came there from Bavel too, via the Byzantine Empire and Italy.
The emergence of Ashkenazim and Sephardim as distinct groups is generally considered to have started at the end of the Tekufah of the Geonim. Until then, all major Halachic shailos that couldn’t be resolved locally would be sent to the great Yeshivos at Pumbedisa and Sura. Many travelled all the way to Bavel to learn there, like Rabbeinu Gershom did. When Moslem persecution in Bavel, and increasing danger traveling, made that system end, the local Yeshivos took over. In Spain the Yeshivos followed the teachings and Mesorah of Rabbeinu Chananel and the Rif, and in Germany that of Rabbeinu Gershom and his Talmidim (who in turn were the Rebbeim of Rashi). There was a Torah presence beforehand in both places, but everyone was subordinate to the Geonim of Bavel, who had a direct living Mesorah from the Amoraim.
AAQ – For the record, as a matter of principle I have never voted in any Israeli election, so they are not “my politicians”. Nor have I ever taken a shekel from the State other than things that every citizen is automatically eligible for equally, such as subsidized health care, even when eligible to do so, also as a matter of principle. Everything you and most others here think that you know about the POV of the different groups in Israel is based on reading news. That isn’t a good way to get to know anything, let alone something as complicated as this.
Speaking of POV, I’m sure you don’t do this deliberately, but you and other Frum Jews who post here, regularly use negatively slanted language and apply double standards towards Chareidim. When Goyim (or secular Jews) in the NYT, WSJ, or broadcast media, do the same to Israel, you (and I) rightfully call them antisemites.
“Your politicians are always DEMANDING more” [Something was legislated years ago/Bagatz-AG strike down the law/Chareidim ASK, like every politician would, to RETURN WHAT WAS ALREADY = Chareidim DEMAND more…]
“On every issue of your community.” Name one other “community” issue in the last 30 years that was, by itself, a reason for Chareidim toppling a government. I’m waiting… לזכותה ייאמר, an RZ MK broke ranks with her own party and toppled the Bennett government for religious reasons.
“Just stop blaming and complaining.” In other words, don’t answer back or otherwise defend yourself when we blame and complain about you. I never initiated any thread here. All I did was respond to various complaints towards Chareidim, mostly by people with limited knowledge of the subject.
Another commenter accused me of engaging in “PR”, for having the chutzpah to defend the Yeshiva World on a website called “Yeshiva World News”…
“and try to find small ways to show others that good that you can show them”
Some big ways:
Yad Sarah, Ichud Hatzalah, Zaka, Efrat (a mostly Chareidi organization that by definition helps ONLY Chilonim…), all of the major food distribution Tzedakas help very many beneficiaries who aren’t Chareidim, ditto for the Bikur Cholims, many non-Chareidim with special needs children send them to Chareidi places where they get better care. Laniado Medical Center in Netanya was built by the Klausenberger Rebbe זצ״ל, and serves the greater Netanya area, which is decidedly non-Chareidi, aside from the one small neighborhood where it is located. Yad L’Achim, aside from its Kiruv work, famously works to rescue Jewish women from Arab villages, at great risk to themselves. Most of those women aren’t Chareidi… Apologies to those organizations I didn’t remember by name off the top of my head.
Some smaller ways:
Very many Chareidi volunteers who bring joy to patients and family in hospitals and nursing homes, special children, the mentally and emotionally challenged, and yes, hold on tight, to – soldiers. For some strange reason, the soldiers never threw rotten tomatoes at us… In fact, they less-than-legally allowed us into encampments of IDF soldiers adjacent to Gaza, who were quite glad to see us.
I deliberately focused on general Chareidi activity, and left out things specific to certain groups (Chabad being the most obvious example) or individuals (Chareidi donors, who help many non-Chareidi beneficiaries). There are also Chareidi volunteers in not (exclusively or primarily) Chareidi organizations.
None of this is secret, and none of this is new. So why does this even need to be pointed out to people on “Yeshiva World” News?
ARSo – It’s not a matter of being a בר פלוגתא. It’s calling out patently false views
In order to decide which views are “patently false”, you need to be within some sort of standard deviation of being a בר פלוגתא. If you open up a ראשון and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”? There has to be some שייכות, which no one writing here has. If Rav Shach זצ״ל would be writing here I wouldn’t be calling him out ח״ו. This is just פשוט שכל. If you follow a גדול (not just for purposes of מחלוקת, but follow for real) who happens to also not hold of Lubavitch, fine for you. That doesn’t give you the right to add your own “two cents” to this or any other מחלוקת.
ARSo – had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T because he was a big talmid chochom and we therefore have no שייכות to being his בר פלוגתא?
It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…
ARSo – That is SO not true! Every single Lubavicher that I have ever met over more than the last fifty years is focused on spreading the word of how great their rebbe was/is, and it really irks them if someone doesn’t believe that he was/is the tzaddik hador.
So what. In discussing the parameters of תועלת, nowhere does the חפץ חיים permit saying לשון הרע in order to “irk” someone. If it is clear that there is no possibility of convincing someone, then there is no obligation, and ממילא no היתר, of תוכחה or תועלת or anything else. Be honest. Whoever is posting these comments here is just doing it for fun. Not to “save” anyone. By the way, believing any particular person is the צדיק הדור is perfectly Kosher. You don’t have to agree, but that is a long way from בזיון.
ARSo – That’s fine when the question is merely, is someone a gadol or not. But when the question is whether the supposed-gadol has views that are dangerous and misleading, your rebbe’s rule does not apply, even according to the Chofetz Chaim.
No, not at all. To trigger a ספק דאורייתא of איסורי לשון הרע it is not at all necessary to be a גדול, only to be עמיתך, which nowadays is not much higher a bar than being Shomer Shabbos… You are also using circular reasoning. Anyone you think might be a כופר is automatically no longer protected by עמיתך, which in turn permits you to be דן לכף חוב, which establishes that he is in fact a כופר…
If you don’t like Lubavitch, maybe you like Satmar… The Divrei Yoel said that if someone is very excited about one particular Mitzvah, but not so much about other Mitzvos, he should investigate carefully where his excitement is coming from… Are all the people here so excited about “saving כלל ישראל” from “כפירה” equally excited about every other aspect of Yiddishkeit?
GadolHadofi – This website is ostensibly ‘Yeshivish’, so I am not talking to a secular audience. As it happens, ‘secular’ Israelis, to a larger extent than you think, do understand the issues I raised. In fact, Arachim and others use exactly the same line of reasoning I did when discussing these issues. Especially the issue you ignored altogether, which is who is doing more for the survival of Israel as a Jewish state, something directly tied to maintaining a Jewish majority. I actually do kiruv work in real life, something I have mentioned previously. (It is true that Kiruv of Israelis and Kiruv of Americans are two different planets in many respects. Israelis tend to respond better to a more direct and even ‘tough’ approach in debate, something that has much to do with the local mentality.)
The reality is that the average Israeli has many things on his mind other than drafting the Chareidim. The amount of space devoted to this issue on the news portion of this website doesn’t reflect daily life in Israel any more than the American news items are reflective of daily life in America. News is all about clickbait. Real-life Israelis, most of whom aren’t really hardcore ‘Chilonim’, deal with the same day to day challenges all people deal with, and much of real-life Kiruv is about showing them how the Torah helps us deal with those challenges. That usually interests them much more than politics. When inevitably they do get around to “Well OK, all of this is really great, I wish they would have told me about this growing up, but why don’t you guys go to the Army etc.?” Arachim and others do use exactly the arguments I did. In fact, in private sessions, people like Uri Zohar and Ika Israeli ז״ל were even more blunt then I was… None of this is a secret, at least not here.
For some strange reason I didn’t think posting on a “Frum” website qualifies as “attempting PR”. I noticed that most people posting here, who live outside of Israel, do not really understand Israeli society, Chareidi, RZ, or non-religious. This applies equally to the wannabe “kanoyim”, and to those who berate the Chareidim for “not sharing the burden”, both of them from the comfort of their homes in חוץ לארץ… That led me to try to share my perspective, born of real life experience. I do have more important things to do, so I’m not interested in continuing to bother you.
ZSK – Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim
GadolHadofi – Baruch Hashem, I am much involved in Kiruv (something I have mentioned in other posts), have an excellent relationship with my Chiloni, Mesorti, RZ, and Chareidi neighbors, and those two things taught me a bit more about the reality in Israel than you probably are aware of. My comment about raising teenagers was humorous, if you didn’t get it.
HaKatan – I actually agree with many things you say, but the מצב today is more complex than 80 years ago. The fact that Zionism was a major disaster ברוחניות is very clear. How to clean up the mess that they left behind is more complicated.
ZSK said – What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus.
At least now I understand what you meant, but the thread was about Sephardim living today. The Sephardim post-1492 abandoned philosophy almost entirely, for the reasons why see the works of the Hassid Yaabetz (another great Sephardi early Acharon…) who was among those who left Spain. There were Sephardi Rishonim who also differed (in a major way) with the school of thought you mentioned such as: Raavad, Rashba, Rabbeinu Yonah, Ramban, R’ Yosef Gikatila (שערי אורה), R”I Sagi Nahor, R”I d’min Acco, and more. The Geonic era was essentially prior to the Sepharad – Ashkenaz divide, although the debate over philosophy existed already then.
Be that as it may, since the Baal Shem Tov HaKadosh and the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh (and the Chida who already noted the connection between them) there has been positive interaction between Sephardim and Chassidus, in both directions.
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai, and certainly Rav Ovadia, don’t go back “a couple of centuries”… They did gain enormous renown and acceptance of their works during their lifetimes though. Actually, I just mentioned some of the ones who ARE well known. The list of Sephardi Acharonim you haven’t heard of at all is as long as an encyclopedic Teshuvah in Yabia Omer…
Another thing people forget, is that post Spanish Expulsion and numerous other צרות, there simply were fewer Sephardim than Ashkenazim, something which is still true today, in a major way. Although inside Israel, Sephardim are over 50% of the Jewish population (because they tend to be more traditional/religious than the secular Ashkenazim, with everything that implies WRT birth rate and Yeridah/assimilation.)
SQUARE_ROOT – Exactly. I mentioned that in brief, but it was a huge issue. There were printing presses in Salonica, Istanbul, or Italy, if you could travel there by boat and be on the road for months or years, like the Chida did. (He was also a Shaliach to raise money for the Jews in Eretz Yisroel, on the way he published his own sefarim, and some others.)
ujm – She davens Sephardi, (and cooks Sephardi, way better than Ashkenazi…), but for Halacha etc. she follows my minhagim. (The same thing applies to an Ashkenazi girl who marries a Sephardi.)
chiefshmerel – Mercaz Harav, although the “flagship” RZ Yeshiva, is not a Hesder Yeshiva, but a full-time Yeshiva Kedosha (and an excellent one at that, in terms of level of learning.) The top tier Hesder Yeshivos (a small fraction of the 80) are reasonably high level in learning. There are also programs for deferred service until after Semichah, at which point alumni become IDF Chaplains (who have no power to enforce anything, which is a different story…) Similar to “Atudah”, for med students and certain tech specialties who complete their education before being enlisted as medics or technicians.
qwerty613 – Just to set the record straight. Anyone who want to do so can click on my username and view all of my posts, to everyone, and then do the same with your username, and see which one of us is נוהג to “go pit bull” on people. What I did do, was to suggest that if you are so profoundly troubled by something Rabbi Manis Friedman said, you could – contact him and ask for clarification… To that you responded by harping on how what Rabbi Friedman said MUST BE kefirah, CAN ONLY BE kefirah, HOW CAN YOU DARE SAY IT ISN’T kefirah… To which I responded by again politely suggesting that you just call or otherwise contact him and ask him for pshat in what he said. You then launched into a series of verbally abusive posts that can only be described as psychotic, upon which I signed off of that thread for over a month. Shortly before Tisha B’Av, I noticed that the same thread was still going strong and racking up hundreds of comments over a month and a half, far more and longer than any other thread, mostly posts from you, displaying obsessive hate for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and using gross nivul peh to describe him, which the moderators repeatedly ignored. (Rabbi Friedman was no longer the main focus of the conversation at that point, if that even matters.) I suggested that: 1. Perhaps Erev Tisha B’Av is not a proper time for such discussion. 2. No one here is qualified to be a בר פלוגתא of the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone else. 3. Who are you trying to convince? To which you responded with another psychotic fit. Anyone can read it and decide for themselves, because again nothing was deleted… I’m not sure where Yankel Berel comes in to all of this, because we otherwise agree very often.
To the point, as I wrote here before:
I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms directed towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
No one even tried to offer a serious response to either of these posts, and I don’t think any more is necessary. Wishing you the best, and זאל זיין געזונט.
Rocky and ujm – You are both wrong with regard to the learning abilities of Hesder Yeshiva students, and I doubt either of you know many of them.
SQUARE_ROOT – Despite consistently producing the best soldiers, the top IDF brass don’t particularly like Hesder students, discriminate against them and spite them, and even those few who become upper mid ranking officers are never promoted too close to the top, even though they are excellent and idealistic and give it their everything. Wonder why that is…
GadolHadofi – Something is truly wrong with you for not understanding the ire of a secular society who’ve see millions of people bankrolled by the government to study and reproduce for decades, while they work hard, fight, bleed and even die in their place.
First of all, you speak as if the government fully “bankrolls” the Chareidim, and as if that is the reason they are able to survive. The amount of money paid to a Kollel Avreich from the Misrad HaDatot is a little more than 400 shekels a month… The VAT paid back to the government by a medium sized Chareidi family from one week of food purchases is more than that. Almost all Yeshivos and Kollelim collect money in Chutz LaAretz in hard currency, which is spent directly into the local Israeli economy to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I.e. the Yeshivos give back more than they get. Child subsidies have long since been slashed a generation ago, thanks to Lapid Sr., with no effect on the Chareidi birth rate. Government “support” for Torah is far from being make-or-break, and the גדולי תורה intentionally kept it that way, even though לזכותו יאמר Menachem Begin sincerely wanted to give more.
Second – If you think parents don’t work hard, fight, bleed, and even die, you have never raised a house full of.teenagers… Seriously, if it were so easy to be Chareidi, let the Chilonim come join us… The majority of soldiers in any army are not קרבי, i.e. “combat” soldiers. Google “tooth to tail ratio” to find out more. That is certainly the case in the IDF which automatically drafts boys (and girls!) who are far below par for combat, even if they wanted to volunteer. There are certainly many who fight, bleed, and even die ר״ל, but they are not near being a majority of the Army, let alone of the population. Even of those who do fight, most complete their three years and get on with life. Contrary to popular belief, most soldiers do not do much מילואים work, if at all. Again, it largely depends on what they were doing beforehand. It is true that a disproportionate burden falls upon a certain sector of the IDF, with a very high percentage of them being Religious Zionists, not ‘Tzfonbonim’, if you know what that term means. Yair Lapid, for example, spent his IDF time as a journalist for the IDF news service… Being a Chareidi, and raising the next generation of a Jewish majority, is a lifelong commitment, with many years of hard work, and expenses, which few Chilonim would be willing to trade their difficulties for (although many begrudgingly are jealous of the Yiddishe Nachas…) So, when push comes to shove, the Chilonim themselves do not consider the Chareidi burden to be lighter.
Third, and really first in importance – The vast majority of the “ire of a secular society” is coming out of the unholy axis of the Supreme Court, AG, and the Israeli MSM, who for the most part aren’t exactly veterans of Sayeret Matkal or the Shayetet, or even just Golani like my father-in-law… I live in Israel, in a mixed neighborhood, with not-religious and not-fully-religious neighbors with whom I have a good relationship, and experience much less hostility than I see on this “frum” website… Just follow the trail of who is pushing for Chareidi “integration” and you will easily see the pattern.
AAQ – Zionists proposed to have a [secular, atheist, socialist] Jewish state in [anywhere] (EY) and that happened, and they saved (millions) (Which millions did they save from death? The million they refused to save in Hungary, because it wouldn’t help their cause, or the 900,000 who fled Muslim countries as a direct result of the founding of the State? Maybe a few thousand were directly saved by Zionist individuals, not the movement as a whole.) from death and (assimilation) (?! Inside Israel secular Jews assimilate less by default, although the real Leftists manage to find Shiksas to bring over from Europe.) in process, and [despite their best efforts to the contrary] established [על אפם וחמתם]a place where Jews can keep mitzvos and learn Torah. I am not suggesting voting for mapai [long since defunct, sort of replaced by עבודה which is also defunct, now the moldering remains of the three or four Leftist parties joined forces as ‘Democratim’ to sort of stay alive], but we should acknowledge the facts. [That Hashem saved us from the Zionist efforts to destroy us ברוחניות, which had the side effect of helping us בגשמיות]
AAQ – I think a lot of tensions come from projecting old political arguments onto current events.
I have said that to ujm etc. But that doesn’t mean that the same underlying problems aren’t there, they just change names and ideology.
AAQ – To see effect of this history – look at Sephardim, where Shas combines multiple groups and there is less inter-group enmity.
LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!! I won’t ruin your innocence…
They did not go through haskalah and reform and socilaism – but right now, they are stam Israelis, but they are less affected by the political outrage.
Most American Ashkenazim know very little about the world of the different Sephardi communities, which is just as rich, varied, and nuanced as the Ashkenazim are. I am married to a Sephardi woman, who (despite being the daughter of a decorated veteran of the Golani Brigade) would take great offense at being referred to as “stam Israeli”. To very briefly summarize a huge topic: The Sephardi mentality does in fact tend to see community members of all levels of Jewish knowledge and observance as an organic whole. Those sometimes wayward members also tend to see themselves as full fledged part and parcel of the community, who deeply believe, respect, care, and support חכמי התורה, לומדי התורה, and all things Jewish, and would never be caught dead doing anything to ח״ו harm any of that, despite their own weaknesses. Some have attributed this to not having gone through Haskalah and Reform etc, but it goes deeper than that. (Haskalah did make it to most Sephardic lands, but later and with less ferocity.) Sephardim historically faced (relatively…) less hostility from the local non-Jews, so they tended to interact more with society at large, but still nowhere near what Americans are used to. To חוצניקים, these traits, combined with looser dress code and seemingly “Israeli” pronunciation of לשון הקודש, make Sephardi Chareidim seem more “Israeli”, but that isn’t how they see themselves. There are also different varieties of Sephardim, who unfortunately don’t always get along as harmoniously as you seem to think… although Rav Ovadia was a uniquely powerful personality, who was able to reach out to and unite very different people, and singlehandedly led a Sephardi Torah renaissance. The fact that they don’t yell and protest as much doesn’t mean they aren’t affected by the “political outrage”. The reality is that they are MORE affected. Just look at where and to whom most of the recent arrests were directed… The Leftist ערב רב, who largely despise the Sephardim and are largely despised by them, see the Sephardi Chareidim as the “weak link” in the Chareidi Torah world, and more vulnerable to “integration”. The fact that the Sephardi חכמים are fully on board with a חרדי coalition stretching as far as the Yerushalmim tells you pretty much everything you need to know about where they really stand now.
UJM – The infantile over-the-top hate language, Nazi imagery, over-emphasis on being opposed to “Zionism” and not “ערב רב” (which would include post-Zionists, and exclude the vast majority of RZ), and lashing out at people who partially agree with you (even a large minority of RZ!), all distract people from the core part of your message which is very real.
AAQ – That is what I was saying – you are complaining when someone takes away benefits they gave you before. And then you point to others who get more somewhere else.
I wasn’t. At all. My whole point is that whoever is having kids in Israel and raising them is not doing so because of government subsidies, so the government is left with no leverage left there, and little credit.
AAQ – You are not pained that groups of Jews do not feel good will towards each other?
I absolutely am. Have said so many times. It just isn’t relevant at all to the demographic reality.
AAQ – So, I suggest joining and influencing IDF now to prepare for your children being there.
You don’t get it. We want a “Chareidi” majority. That doesn’t go together with joining the IDF “now”…
AAQ – So, take responsibility and participate in the country’s life as partners and not as renters who demand everything has to be to their standard before you come in.
The children ARE the country. The Torah is the country’s life. The Chilonim demand Hashem keep them alive and safe in His Palace (פלטין של מלך) without contributing to keeping the Torah. We take responsibility by having Jewish children and raising them to keep the Torah. The Chilonim, sadly, not so much so.
AAQ – But I see the long-term “plan” now.
It isn’t a plan, it’s just the מציאות.
AAQ – Leadership asserts that members of the community will change to other groups if they were to be exposed to other views.
They ARE ALREADY exposed to ‘other views’ far more than you think or we ideally would want, and they don’t change as much as you think they would either. Serving in the IDF is not simply being “exposed to other views”, as has been repeated here ad nauseam…
AAQ – This greenhouse grown majority will not have abilities to function, as there is no experience for several generations.
Again, the reality everyone knows is that the “greenhouse” isn’t as tightly sealed as you think, and Chareidim function just fine in many fields they choose to engage in, when and how they deem appropriate. דרך אגב, in the IDF “officers” in their low twenties teach kids of 18 everything most of them will ever know (unless they sign up for צבא קבע and join elite units) about using weapons and military tactics. It isn’t rocket science (that they learn in רפא״ל or אלביט, and such, where some Chareidim also work…)
AAQ – Imagine, they’ll be the majority – would they suddenly find chochma and middos to run the country, the army, international politics?
Stop klapping al cheit for other people’s imagined aveiros. The Chiloni government officials are just overflowing with Chochma and Middos like a broken toilet…
AAQ – We had this with Jews becoming free in, say, interwar Poland – there was a lof of heat, but these were all losing battles.
Don’t know what in the world you are talking about. Beyond apples and oranges… Jews in Interwar Poland were viciously discriminated against by a boorish and hostile yokel population with a centuries old tradition of antisemitism. Jewish political power, such as it was, was mostly in the hands of Secularists and Socialists, who the yokels saw as Communist agitators (some in fact were). Most importantly, the ejector button in the ברית בין הבתרים operational headquarters in שמים was already flashing red… In ארץ ישראל, the ejector function is ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ בטמאכם אותה. Progressive alphabet soup, kefirah, and other rotten stuff, give Eretz Yisroel a “stomach ache” which sends many of the (few) children of the Lefties and Progs to pursue careers in חוץ לארץ, including the grandchildren of BG himself… יש מנהיג לבירה.
AAQ said – The more ways you can find to participate in the society/army, the faster you’ll get support.
The more children you have, and raise to be Ehrliche Jews, the faster you’ll get a Chareidi majority. Then, let them come to us for support… The reason the Chilonim are so interested in ‘integrating’ Chareidim is because they fear just such a scenario… That’s why we don’t buy it.
There were indeed very many great Sephardi Achronim, who most Ashkenazim haven’t heard of. In all fairness, the ‘fame’ of an Acharon usually is related to the availability of his Sefer. Why one particular Sefer or Mechaber becomes known throughout Klal Yisroel, and one doesn’t, often defies logical explanation, only משמיא קא זכו ליה. Among major Sephardi Achronim, just to name a few: The Beit Yosef, the Ramak (Tomer Devorah and many others), Radvaz, Shittah Mekubetzet, Reishit Chochmah, Ein Yaakov, Ramah MiPano, the Alshich, R’ Shlomo Sirilio (on the Yerushalmi), Shiltei HaGiborim, Ramchal, the Ohr HaChaim, Rashash (R’ Shalom Sharabi, Mekubal and Rebbe of the Chida), the Chida, R’ Chaim Palaggi, Abir Yaakov (Abuhatzerah), the Ben Ish Chai, Kaf HaChaim, and many more. The Ohr HaChaim and Chida in particular were prolifically studied and quoted by גדולי החסידות, even more so than by the Sephardim themselves. Geography and finances also affected printing and distribution of Sefarim. Tunisia produced many great Geonim, but their numerous Sefarim were not widely known during their lifetime outside of North Africa. In Yemen, poverty, lack of modern printing technology, and the isolated location, led to many Sefarim remaining in manuscript for centuries. Rav Ovadia’s works, aside from his own Gadlus, are a treasure trove of halachic material culled from the works of many dozens of Sephardi Achronim that he dedicated much of his life to learning and teaching.
The Sephardi minhagim and nuschaot entered Chassidus primarily through the works of the Arizal, who himself was the son of an Ashkenazi father and a Sephardi mother. That also led to affinity between the Sephardi Mukubalim and Chassidus. The Abuhatzerah dynasty is one prominent example. דרך אגב, most “Sephardim” today (Iraqi, Persian, most Syrian, most Moroccan, most Tunisian) are not at all descended from “Sepharad”, and are more accurately referred to as “Edot Hamizrach” (except that geographically Morocco is Edot Hamaarav…) Iraqi, Persian, and Yemenite Jews were there for the most part since חורבן בית ראשון. (Yemenis have their own unique and ancient minhagim, and their Halachot are based largely on the Rambam.) Rav Ovadiah Yosef (himself Iraqi/Bavli) was asked by Juan Carlos, the former King of Spain, why those communities refer to themselves as “Sephardim”. He answered that the name “Sephardim” was adopted by all communities who accepted the Beit Yosef/Mechaber (who was in fact “Sephardi”) as their final authority in Halacha.
ZSK – Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
עד כדי כך?! As a Chossid, who learned in Litvish Yeshivos, and is married to a Sephardi woman, I beg to differ. We belong in the same sentence, and the same Beis/Beit Midrash, and the same house, and most importantly the same Beis/Beit Hamikdash, of which there will be only one for all of כלל ישראל.
ZSK – Very hard to predict when the moderation will release any given comment. This results in comments apparently being posted out of sequence.
Keith – The likelihood that any of us will solve this problem. Here is close to zero. The likelihood that we are slandering each other in (and?) our brothers and sisters, who have never been exposed to Judaism is great.
You are very right. I have also mentioned this point more than once, and so did Yankel Berel and others. Many here do try to stick to positive arguments, as opposed to frontally bashing the other side.
AAQ – 1) Israel already provides subsidies. You hear protests when they are suddenly reduced.
Again, you are a little behind the news. Those subsidies were slashed over 20 years ago, mostly by Lapid Sr. שר״י. What remains doesn’t begin to make a dent in the cost of raising children. Most Leftist European countries give out far larger subsidies (to Muslim invaders), and recently East Asian countries with low birth rates tried outdoing even Europe, to little avail.
(2) unfortunately, it seems that non-charedim do not feel that growing-up charedim are their children too.
They don’t feel the Arab children are their children either. That doesn’t do anything to change the demographic issue.
(3) not serving adds to that feeling that growing population will not add to the defense of the country.
Not having a Jewish country do defend sort of makes that חשבון irrelevant. When (not if) there will be a Chareidi majority, they will have to deal with us on our terms, including cleaning up the IDF.
(4) same in politics – if growing charedi vote is only to support their own benefits, this does not add to mutual feelings.
You don’t get the idea. Our ‘benefits’ are the future of כלל ישראל, and especially the future of Israel, whether you, the Chilonim, or the lamppost agree with that or not. There isn’t any alternative or Plan B. Gornisht. Many non-Chareidim begrudgingly admit this simple fact. For a while, the Israeli powers that be toyed with mass immigration of (mostly) Halachic Goyim from the former USSR, but they vote Right wing and have fewer kids than Jewish Israelis. There simply aren’t enough non-Chareidi Jews serious enough to have more kids, and preferably have them here.
AAQ – I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting.
If there is no Jewish majority, there won’t be “the rest of klal” to have an opinion. There won’t be anything for the IDF to fight for. No other חשבונות will make any difference. The Progressive Post-Zionist elite doesn’t care, because they have a pipe dream of a Goyish state of all its citizens. (Anyone who still subscribes to that view post October 7, I have no issue with calling him ערב רב. And no, UJM, they AREN’T Zionists.) The other 90% of the non-Chareidi Jewish population for the most part do see us as brothers. If and when they don’t, it’s because of the ערב רב junta who incite them through the ‘MSM’, because we are the biggest obstacle to their vision of Israel’s Post-Zionist future.
AAQ said – YYA > certainly not 18 year old singles… So, make it 19-y.o. married once and request them visiting home every night or shabbos.
You really know a lot about the Army, (and the Yeshiva world) do you?
AAQ – So, you graduated from being a בר פלוגתא of contemporary גדולי ישראל to being an בר פלוגתא of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai? At least please resolve for us all of the תיקו and the kashes in all of Shas while you’re at it…
AAQ – I see in the current generation almost zero doctors.
There will be enough doctors to go around, Chareidi or otherwise. There will not be a committed next generation of Klal Yisroel, or a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisroel without Chareidim. (Not knocking the stronger end of the RZ spectrum, but they are nowhere near being able to achieve those two absolutely essential goals without the Chareidim too.)
AAQ – When malach told Yehoshua that he came because Jews were not learning during the war – Yehoshua could just say that when I order the fight, it counts as learning?!
Um, uh, just maybe the Malach was a sufficiently worthy מאן דאמר to tell Yehoshua what to do, whereas we aren’t necessarily מאן דאמר to tell גדולי ישראל what to do…
Or why he did not designate bnei Levi to sit and learn?
That’s actually a good question, to find the answer read the pesukim more carefully. This happened during the battle of Yericho, when Sheivet Leivi and the Kohanim participated in the procession with the Aron and Shofaros… It has been pointed out that even then, they didn’t not learn ALTOGETHER, but just not as much or as intensely as they otherwise would have וילן בתוך העמק – עומק ההלכה.
Yankel Berel – I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms you (and others) imply towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.