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mdd1 – The original nusach of the infamous “cherem” (that some here suggest still is in force, if it ever was legit to begin with…) prohibited “intermarriage” with the ״מוחרמים״, among other extremes. That’s called פסולי קהל. Look before you shoot. For some reason the many Maskilim who operated within the Volozhin Yeshiva several decades later were never treated so harshly… But Klal Yisroel has moved past this stuff. On both sides. So why dig it up? Like I wrote to Yankel Berel, we all have at least 613 things we can agree on…
SQUARE_ROOT – It isn’t a Chiddush to anyone that Agudath Israel is mildly pro-Israel. Therefore what exactly? Some agree, some are more pro than them, and some are anti. None of the other groups really care what Agudah holds.
ujm said – “YYA: If you observed anyone referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Fourth Reich of Ireland, would you get as bent out of shape as you do when you hear the State of Israel being referred to as such? If not, it appears you give the Zionist State some sort of messianic categorization.”
Well, FWIW, Ireland isn’t so far from going there… But seriously, there is a range of other options between “Messianic Redemption” and “Nazis”, don’t you think?
Ask yourself: If YOU thought Israel was no different than Ireland, then why do YOU get bent out of shape when the Israeli “leaders” do things (that they obviously shouldn’t be doing) against Yiddishkeit? Why do you expect them to be better than Goyim? אלא מאי, even you understand that Israel, despite being very deeply flawed and in need of תיקון, is “something more than Ireland”, not אתחלתא דגאולה, just “something more than Ireland”. Maybe even something more than Monsey…
ujm – So why are you so “worried” about us? Why do we need you and your Iranian and NK friends to come up with ideas how to “help” us? Just let the Ribbono Shel Olam take care of it, and stop trying to give Him ideas how to “save” us…
SQUARE_ROOT said:
“Is Chabad Kiruv a Failure?
When we consider the high % of Jews who intermarry with non-Jews,
and also consider the low % of Secular Jews who become Baalei Teshuvah,
we cannot ignore the possibility that Chabad kiruv a failure,
and might not be worth the great time and money Chabad has spent on it.Viewed from this perspective,
we cannot ignore the possibility that ALL kiruv a failure!”So, exactly how much time and money is a Jewish Neshama, a בן אברהם יצחק ויעקב, a חלק אלוק ממעל, a בנים אחים ורעים, an אחותי רעייתי תמתי, worth in your humble estimation? What Z’chus exactly is worth more than saving ONE Jew, let alone his/her future descendants, ALL of whom, together with ALL of their Mitzvos UNTIL THE END OF TIME will be “credited” to the eternal “bank account” of whoever was Mekarev them?
Aside from the fact that Kiruv, especially in Eretz Yisroel, is more “successful” than you think, but this isn’t a numbers game. And who could ignore the revolution going on for decades in the former Soviet Bloc nations (led to a large extent by, well you know which group…) where tens of thousands of Jews have returned to their roots and built families of Shomrei Mitzvos? Is this not “worth it”? תמיה תמיה אקרא!
What is more חשוב in Hashem’s View כביכול than bringing back His lost children?
Yankel Berel – I’m not sure the Chazon Ish ever wrote “against” the בעלי מוסר. He had his own Shittah, which he formulated in some of his letters and to some extent in אמונה ובטחון, but any “criticism” of מוסר was at most implicit.
אגב, it has also been said that נפש החיים is a great Chassidish Sefer… There are many places where It is particularly close to the lashon and shittos of the Tanya, to the point where those not strongly familiar with both Sefarim could be fooled into thinking that a particular quote came from the “other” Sefer… Which goes to show כי אב אחד לכולנו…
Yankel Berel – All the vertlech and maaselech used to perpetuate Machlokes are always from a “mekor ne’eman”… No one is claiming that the Chazon Ish was a “Chossid” or even agreed in theory with (some of) the principles of Chassidus. (We do all agree on at least 613 things, don’t we?) It is well documented that he did have a very positive relationship with many Chassidim during the last Tekufah of his life, when he lived in Bnei Brak, something that was crucial to the success of Bnei Brak as a Chareidi city, as he himself noted. There were also Chassidim and people from a strongly Chassidish background who were members of his inner circle. Not the least of which was his brother in law the Steipler Gaon זצ״ל, who’s parents were Chassidim, who attributed his own birth to the Bracha of a Chassidish Rebbe, and who was נוהג many Chassidish minhagim throughout his life (despite telling his son Reb Chaim זצ״ל to change most of them himself.) Why can’t we all understand this in terms of בית שמאי and בית הלל that Chazal say לא נמנעו מלישא נשים אלו מאלו ולא נמנעו עושין טהרות אלו על גב אלו שהיו נוהגין אהבה שלום ורעות? Chassidus has stood the test of time and is here to stay. The Litvishe Velt does their thing, they aren’t going anywhere, and they are not “under attack” from Chassidus as some may have felt 250 years ago. So why dig up old מחלוקת that has long since died of old age and ceased to be relevant, if it ever was? Even if all the sharfeh vertlech from “mekoros ne’emunim” really were said (a sketchy proposition to say the least…), תכלית למעשה who cares? There are Yidden who absolutely gain from Chassidus, and there are Yidden who absolutely gain from the “Yeshiva World” (the real one, not the web site…) There are also Yidden who absolutely gain from Sephardic Chachamim. (I could add some more groups and subgroups, but I don’t want to start more conflict…) We can all respect each other and love each other and even learn from the things that the “other” groups do better than we do. If, for whatever reason, there were some heated exchanges between different חכמי וצדיקי הדורות over the centuries, we don’t need to get hung up on that, or חס ושלום to disrespect one of the sides. These are very פשוט things that I think we can all agree on. And again, always remember that even before this, there are always at least 613 things we definitely all agree on…
ujm – October 7 happened in “Green Line Israel”, and many of the people harmed believed (until then) in a “one state solution”, just like you do…
“Constant murders etc.” also were mostly inside the “Green Line”.
But yes, we feel safer here, because of the additional השגחה פרטית and סייעתא דשמיא of being בהיכל המלך.
In Germany in the 1920s few if any Jews were killed. The Jews there felt very safe, and felt sorry for the poor Yidden in ארץ ישראל who suffered from numerous terror attacks already then. So you can trust in Trump or whichever politicians or Askonim you hold of, and we will trust in Hashem. Not the IDF, not Bibi, only Hashem Himself.
ujm – “So, too, are secular Zionists (like Netanyahu) who still maintain the old Zionist ideals.”
Wow, ujm, you just gave Bibi a big compliment he doesn’t deserve…
“Are you accusing the Religious Zionists/Daati Leumi of not having functional brains? Because, even if it were doable, they are extremely opposed to such an idea.”
Anyone with a functional brain understands that there is no נפקא מינה anyway, because before Moshiach comes it ISN’T doable AT ALL, and after Moshiach comes מחיית עמלק will make it unnecessary…
HaKatan – I don’t live in the West Bank, but I have a daughter and son-in-law who do. (Real West Bank ר״ל, not Kiryat Sefer…) Personally, I would feel safer there than in Mamadani’s New York, and I don’t see America in general moving in a good direction.
Yankel Berel – “chazon ish was a mitnaged who put aside his hitnagdut in the cause and benefit of judaisn overall”
Well, the original Misnagdim did not put aside their “hitnagdut”… If someone theoretically is opposed to the ideas of Chassidus, but in practice respects Chassidim and Rebbes, they respect him back, has no problem working together with them, even admires and praises certain things that he admits they do better than most Litvaks, so is this person really such a “Misnaged”? I don’t think anyone realistically expects more than that or needs more than that from anyone who doesn’t hold of their Shittah (saying this in both directions.) It’s fine to disagree, even Gedolei Yisroel can disagree, but the Chazon Ish was not מבטל the legitimacy of Chassidim (and probably Chassidus, he didn’t hold they were Kofrim or in Cherem ר״ל or other nonsense suggested here.) He certainly wasn’t מבטל the legitimacy of Mussar, even if he had a different Derech.
דרך אגב, the Kuntres Emunah Uvitachon of the Chazon Ish was published posthumously, and apparently wasn’t even finished. So it is impossible that the Chazon Ish ever had such a conversation… Like so many other apocryphal quotes and maaselech used to promote Machlokes, it’s just another figment of someone’s imagination… I’ve learned אמונה ובטחון of the Chazon Ish, and I would never have known that it’s a “critique” of anything until you said so… In theory every statement of a “shittah” could be seen as an implicit criticism of another shittah, but then אין לדבר סוף. Better to look for less Machlokes and more Shalom.
mdd1 – Although I frequently disagree with ujm on other issues, including the idiotic doubling down on defending a disgusting unrepentant pervert, but his last post about the Chazon Ish is correct. No one ever attempted to claim that in his Shittos and Derech the Chazon Ish was anything other than a Litvak, but he didn’t hold that Chassidim or their Rebbes were פסולי קהל ח״ו the way some mechutzafim posting here seem to suggest.
Gutte Voch Dr. Yaakov Qwerty!
So now ברוך השם I am back to being a Kosher Jew in your book. Thank you for at least being openminded enough to recalculate when you realize something has gone too far. Mind you, I never said anything about the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל being Moshiach or a Novi. Read all of my posts going back to almost a year ago, you will find absolutely nothing of the sort. The only think I said that Shimon didn’t, (he actually almost did, but in a roundabout way), was that if you or anyone else has טענות on Rabbi Friedman, you should contact him. How about if Shimon himself contacts him, and confronts him with the contents of the Sefer he mentioned, where the Lubavitcher Rebbe basically demolishes any הוה אמינא of the line of thinking that Rabbi Friedman may or may not have been going with? I would be very curious as to how such a scenario would play out. Nobody can claim to be a card carrying Lubavitcher AND go against explicit instructions of the Rebbe. So he would have to answer SOMETHING, and based on that it would לכאורה be possible to determine where Rabbi Friedman is really holding. Think about it: If you frame any question as a challenge to Chabad philosophy per se, or even if you just identify yourself as someone who questions his whole outlook, you immediately put him in defensive mode, and therefore any answers given could be questionable. (Which is what you and Yankel rejected any possibility of questioning Rabbi Friedman.) But if you frame the whole thing as “OK, I hear what you say, but how then can we understand Z, Y, and Z that the Rebbe זצ״ל says HERE (presenting him with the Sefer, which דרך אגב, it sounds like it was compiled in response to krumkeit of the sort we are concerned about here…) In other words, tell him “you are A-OK (לצורך העניין), but please tell me Pshat what the Rebbe really meant”. If someone, maybe Shimon, could pull this off convincingly enough, then IMHO it would be possible to determine from Rabbi Friedman’s reaction where he really is holding.
What do you, Yankel Berel, and Shimon Katz think of this line of reasoning?
As far as what you heard from the Chabad Rabbi:
“I asked the Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend when this Moshiach business started and he told me, “When the Rebbe took over in 1951, he announced he’s Moshiach.” Then I asked him why Chabad thinks the Rebbe is a Novi and he told me that when the Rebbe was three years old, he had a dream in which Hashem told him he’s a Novi and he had a vision of himself sitting on a throne with millions of people bowing down to him.”
I have read lots of Chabad Seforim, from the Rebbes and also from Chassidim, and I have seen even some hard-core Meshichist material in flyers and pamphlets etc. floating around my neighborhood (although I never buy any Sefer who’s author is clearly a Meshichist). I have yet to see anything remotely resembling either of those stories. If you see this Rabbi regularly, could you please ask him for מראי מקומות where this stuff comes from? Shimon seems to be quite well versed in Chabad sources, did he ever hear such a thing? אגב, even people who actually have real clairvoyant dreams, for whatever reason משמים Hashem chooses to give them, at age three or at any age, are not automatically Neviim, according to any Shittah, so you could ask him that too.
Dr. Qwerty and Yankel Berel – I am somewhat amused watching your conversation with Shimon Katz. What is he being מחדש to you that I wasn’t? Before Dr. Qwerty was accusing the Rebbe himself of doing horrible things for the basest of motives, and Yankel Berel was seemingly pretty much OK with that, now both of you are מודה במקצת even לגבי the Chassidim, certainly לגבי the Rebbe. So did I just misread you? Did something change your mind? Or is something else going on? “Davening six days a week in a Chabad shul” is way more Kesher with Chabad than I have (on the למעשה level), and certainly doesn’t go together with considering them Kofrim ח״ו. Neither of you would ever daven in a Conservative place of worship, let alone a church. If you REALLY AND TRULY believe them to consider Mitzvos optional, then their Shul is Conservative ח״ו. If you REALLY AND TRULY believe them to “deify” the Rebbe then… So you apparently don’t REALLY AND TRULY believe these things. At any rate, what is the “secret sauce” Shimon is feeding you?
DaMoshe and LerntminTayrah – You both are apparently not aware that the main Machlokes against Chassidus, and particularly the involvement of the Gra זי״ע, began more than a decade AFTER the passing of the Baal Shem Tov.
“The Torah History podcast from Rabbi Aryeh Ganz ( recent episode – maybe season 2 episode 41?) has a story where a certain Rebbe said that the derech of the Besht no longer exists. A bunch of Rebbes from different sects made a mechaah. The Rebbe replied, “Every Rebbe says that the way of the Besht is lost EXCEPT in their own sect. I am just saying the same thing , but adding my own sect as well”.”
The Rebbe was the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל, who did not make that statement in the context you are using it. He held that later generations weren’t living up to the lofty ideals of the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע, not that there was something “wrong” with the Derech of the Baal Shem Tov ח״ו that was “corrected” later. Neither of you seem to be capable of anything other than repeating over old Maaselach from Lita. Can you provide any actual examples of things the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע said to do, that Chassidim did then, but stopped doing later, because the Litvaks told them to stop? Not stories, not podcasts, real documented facts.
WRT the Chazon Ish זצ״ל, he is also said to have attributed the success of Bnei Brak to the Chassidish Baalei Batim and mayor (Reb Yitzchok Gershtenkorn ז״ל), who treated the Chazon Ish as a de-facto Rebbe… and followed his every word with great devotion, as opposed to Vilna itself (his previous home) where the (Litvish…) Baalei Batim ignored the Gedolei Torah and went head over heels after the Haskalah and other secular movements… Did he change his outlook after moving to Bnei Brak and meeting Chassidim firsthand? I don’t know. But his very friendly and positive relationship with the (mostly Chassidish) founders of Bnei Brak is well known and documented. More than your stories are. (What was the date the Chazon Ish supposedly celebrated the “cherem”? Why is a cherem something to celebrate (even if ח״ו necessary)? When the Sanhedrin executed someone they had to fast, not celebrate. The whole “maaseleh” smells “off”.)
DaMoshe – So, you hold that at the time of the Beis Haleivi “Chassidus as the Baal Shem Tov taught it” still existed, and therefore it was assur to bury Chassidim in the regular cemetery, and then a generation later it was OK for his own granddaughter to marry a Chossid? Unlike your Bubbe Maiseh, the marriage of Reb Chaim’s daughter to Reb Hirsh Glickson הי״ד is well documented. So according to you Chassidus died out at some point between 1892 and 1913 and with it the “cherem”. Very interesting…
Have you ever read any of the easily available Seforim containing the recorded teachings of the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע and tried to check what he did and didn’t say based on his own words, not just those of his opponents? Then you could judge for yourself whether his Derech still exists and if it really was so “scary” to begin with. That’s what real Litvaks do right? They think independently and draw their own conclusions… Except when a Negiah of machlokes clouds their brains and they become more closed-minded than what they accuse Chassidim of being… Maybe you should learn some Mussar to gain clarity and self-awareness, that’s Kosher by you? Or are you uber-Litvak and anti-Mussar also?
HaKatan – “The “West Bank” is far more dangerous, as has been sadly proven far too often ever since the Zionists conquered that territory.”
A quick perusal of Chaim Baruch’s list reveals that you consider the home of almost half a million Yidden to be “far more dangerous” than:
Yemen (a dangerous place to be a Goy, let alone a Yid)
Iran (you must have some protekzia there, do you?)
Egypt (a little less likely to be killed than the previous two, but watch your back)
South Africa (tell them you aren’t a Zionist, really NOT a Zionist, maybe paint your face black)
Paris and London (capitals of the second and third nuclear armed Muslim states respectively)
Dublin, Toronto, Montreal, NYC, LA, and Dearborn, Michigan.
He forgot Chicago, although the gang members there are probably equal opportunity murderers.
So good luck, and don’t forget to buy a good Israeli made “Shachpatz” before you go move to Yemen or Dearborn or wherever…
HaKatan – “A letter posted to this site is no longer just for “internal RZ purposes”. His response was, of course, to it being posted here, not to their “internal purposes”.
זאל זיין געזונט, the ORIGINAL LETTER was NOT posted here. The real purpose of the letter is to put pressure on certain RZ politicians who are seen in their own tzibbur as being too close to the Chareidim and not tough enough on Netanyahu. The chances that this letter, emotional though it may be, will actually make a difference at the end of the day to the draft law itself, is quite slim, and the writers know it. Some well-meaning person posted it here (for what תועלת I’m not sure, because no one on either side is going to change their stance on this issue because of something like this), and the usual suspects right away began to pounce… Anyone with any amount of empathy, no matter how strongly he is opposed to the positions expressed in the letter, easily understands that even were you to encounter the original author of the original letter there is ZERO חיוב מחאה here, and certainly ABSOLUTE ZERO תועלת to be מוחה. But go explain that to someone who doesn’t have any empathy. Someone who sits on his toilet seat and dreams of endangering the life of millions of Yidden in the name of his warped NK uber-Kanoi ideology rejected even by Satmar.
For what it’s worth, in Russia they have Daylight Savings Time all year round, among other reasons in order to avoid the issues that arise from suddenly changing the clock. If you like that, then I guess you could say that just like a broken clock is right twice a day, so can Russia be on the right side of one issue…
Shimon Katz – The son-in-law was Rav Tzvi Hirsh Glickson, who was married to Sarah Rashe the daughter of Reb Chaim Brisker. He was a Talmid and Chossid of the Avnei Neizer of Socatchov, and Reb Chaim, who met him while visiting Warsaw in 1913, was profoundly impressed by his clarity in learning. He lived for a time in Brisk and became a close Talmid of Reb Chaim, aside from being his son-in-law. After Reb Chaim’s passing he returned to Warsaw and opened a Yeshiva there named Toras Chaim. There he taught mostly Chassidish bochurim according to the Brisker derech halimud… He tried to move with his family to Eretz Yisroel in 1935, but could not get the necessary “certificate”. Tragically, he was killed together with his entire family when the Nazis ימ״ש invaded Poland, so he doesn’t have descendants today. השם ינקום דמם.
At any rate, it is absurd to suggest that the Beis Haleivi held the “cherem” against Chassidim to still be in effect, and then a generation later his son makes a (very successful) shidduch with Chassidim. (For those wondering, the original cherem explicitly prohibited “intermarriage” with Chassidim.) What changed all of a sudden and when? אלא מאי, as often happens when stories about machlokes pass through the grapevine and through the sands of time, people tend to embellish them and add things that להד״ם…
Does any Litvish Godol living today actually believe the “cherem” against Chassidim is still in force? If the answer is no, but in the time of the Beis Haleivi supposedly it still was in effect (שקר גס, but for argument’s sake…) so when did it suddenly stop? Or maybe it wasn’t so in force even then? Or maybe never really legit to begin with…
ujm – You keep on babbling about how the Arabs/Muslims were supposedly so wonderful to the Jews until Zionism came along. Even אם תמצי לומר that your thesis is true (it isn’t), the Arab mentality doesn’t care. If they hate Jews now, THEY THINK that they ALWAYS hated Jews, and that’s how they program their kids. They don’t believe in binary true/false or in history as an immutable reality, or in REALITY ITSELF as an immutable reality. So it doesn’t matter that factually at certain times in the past they were “so-so plus”, which qualified in the Middle Ages as a “Golden Age”. What matters is how THEY see their identity and history NOW. Not how you and your friends sitting somewhere you fool yourself into thinking is a safe distance away think they see themselves.
Shimon Katz – Just a quick heads up. Rabbi Manis Friedman is Dr. Qwerty’s favorite topic, for some reason even more than the “Atzmut Mahutniks” you mentioned. The thing that turned Qwerty against me in an almost obsessive way is that I had the gall to suggest to him that he should try to contact Rabbi Friedman and talk to him before Paskening that he is a Kofer. Just ask the Rabbi what he meant. To him all of Chabad boils down to that one stupid video on YouTube. Nothing else they or even the Rebbe himself said or did counts, only “Manis Friedman”.
Dr. Qwerty – You say that you daven six days a week at a Chabad Shul. You also have said multiple times in previous posts that you consider Chabad to be idolators and Kofrim etc. So what is your Heter to daven in an “idolatrous” place of worship? Or are you not so sure that each and every Lubavitcher is a “kofer”?
Thanks SQUARE_ROOT. I’m not so sure Alan himself is so proud of the Harvard stuff these days… At any rate, most people know who he is.
Shimon – Watch out for Dr. Qwerty, he is the “pit bull” of the coffee room on anything connected with Chabad. Don’t try to engage him in debate, it’s a complete waste of time.
Shimon – A day in the life of the “Coffee Room”. This should really be called the “Rage Room”.
ujm – “That being said, what I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact.”
I would cool it a bit on that “far, far better” stuff. The Muslims in the Middle Ages were in fact far better than the Christians, but they went through centuries of decline and radicalization, way before Zionism, and the Christians went through the Renaissance and Enlightenment which weakened the power of the Church. By the time Europe had come up with new secular “reasons” to be antisemitic, the Muslims had caught up with or surpassed them.
Rav Shach was not speaking theoretically at all. He answered real Sheilos both during the Camp David Accords and the Oslo Accords. Do you seriously think Rav Shach held it would be OK to surrender Israeli sovereignty ENTIRELY to the Arabs? Or are you again playing your game of moving the goal posts?
Dr. Yaakov Qwerty שליט״א said “YYA sinks to a new low by suggesting a commonality between those who criticize Chabad and those who support Neturei Karta.”
You missed the parenthesis where I wrote: (not that I equate those groups).
The ONLY commonality I did suggest between the critics is that they are using the “Coffee Room” as a “Rage Room”. There are three main Chevra, with some occasional assistance, who constantly flame about the “Zionists”, as if the type of Zionism they are so worked up about even exists anymore. They often start pyro-provocative threads about dismantling Israel etc. There is another group who flame at “anti-Zionists”, especially NK. Now the fake NK clowns, as I have mentioned many times, exhibit all of the symptoms of “antisocial personality disorder”. The WORST thing to do with someone like that is to berate him and curse him etc., because he enjoys being a pariah and that just adds “fuel” for his fire. I don’t know what your field of specialization is, but as a doctor I’m sure you understand that. So neither of these two groups accomplish anything other than venting their anger in a “kosher” way. Then there is the third group, of which you are the leader and champion, who use Chabad as their punching bag. (You also use me personally as a punching bag, but that’s much better than using the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, so feel free to keep on doing so.)
The צד השוה שבהם is that they are mainly looking for “kosher” לשון הרע and אונאת דברים and other such activities.
ujm – Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing. Especially since this letter is mainly for internal RZ purposes and will not make any difference in real life, for reasons you won’t understand.
ujm – Brilliant, ingenious argument. That will show them. Get a life.
Meaning as much as the Supreme Court despise the Chareidim.
ברחל בתך הקטנה
As much as THEY despise the Chareidim.
The sad truth is that most of the current government, and certainly the opposition waiting in the wings for the “Bismuth Plan” to fail or be shot down by the SC, couldn’t care less about the RZ or the Chareidim, only about their own political career. Most of the Supreme Court, who are the ones who actually make the decisions, downright despise the RZ, as much as the Chareidim.
ujm – What about this very partial list limited to Eretz Yisroel long before Zionism:
1517 Chevron and Tzfas
1660s Total destruction of Teverya, pogroms in Tzfas.
Early 1700’s Yerushalayim
1834 Tzfas and Chevron
1838 Mostly Tzfas
and more…
All involving mass murder and Hamas-style treatment of the women. You don’t know or care.
I could think of better things to do לעילוי נשמת the fallen הי״ד than to use them to promote controversy, but I agree with ZSK about the “merits” of posting this here.
“The question arises in countries like Korea, Malaysia Phillipines etc, where there are no Jews except an occasional traveler or someone who has seasonal work.”
There are huge numbers of Israeli tourists who travel to all kinds of nutty places, especially in the Far East, and very often are more open to investigating Yiddishkeit there than they are at home. Down the block from me lives a (now Chassidish, not Chabad) family, from a very secular background, who became Baalei Teshuva thanks to Chabad of Bangkok. The Chabad house of Hoi An, Vietnam (just down the road from Da Nang…) hosts an average of 250 Israelis every Shabbos. Chabad of Wyoming is located in Jackson Hole, not Cheyenne, and there is actually a book published about what they do. There is also a book published by the Shaliach in Anchorage, Alaska with mind-boggling stories of Kiruv and Chessed, including traveling with a plane than can land on ice to do Brissim in towns north of the Arctic Circle.
But hey, Qwerty knows best – “Kiruv really isn’t possible in those places”. As if he tried.
“As for your grandfather, Chabad was different at that time. It was seriously interested in Kiruv, but things have changed.”
First of all, the קפידה was on the “low return” part. Was one Neshoma worth more in 1960 than it is worth today. Secondly, “at that time” was in 1960. Almost ten years after the last Rebbe זצ״ל accepted leadership of Chabad. The main sichos used to try to present Chabad as Kofrim etc. were already said by then, and the Shelichus enterprise was well underway. (Having actually been started by the Rayatz זצ״ל, but don’t let facts confuse you.) So you are now saying that then they WERE OK? That’s a big step forward for you, especially since you don’t seem to know a lot about the Shluchim of later years.
Feel free to use me as a verbal punching bag. I couldn’t care less.
Yedl – אין הכי נמי, there is never such a thing as “low benefit kiruv”. Neshamos are not dollars and anyone who thinks of kiruv in terms of ROI/bottom-line calculations doesn’t begin to understand what it means to bring a חלק אלוק ממעל back to the Ribbono Shel Olam. That’s before you even start factoring in זרעו וזרע זרעו עד סוף כל הדורות. Truly mind boggling.
Rav Avigdor Miller זצ״ל, attributed his entire course in life and everything he accomplished, to a Lubavitcher Chossid who was his private Rebbi as a teenager in Baltimore in the 1920’s, who instilled in him love for learning Gemara and convinced him to continue his Jewish education in Yeshivah Gedolah, something very unusual in America back then.
somejew – “it sounds like your concern is that the stated goal is impractical.”
Why is that not sufficient grounds to oppose something? Especially when “impractical” means literal סכנת נפשות?
“But my question explicitly side-stepped that issue.”
Of course, because you aren’t interested in the reality on the ground or how do deal with that reality. You just want more feed for endless debates about hypothetical scenarios that aren’t an option in real life. Something made easier by the fact that you don’t live here, and you apparently are willing to gamble with millions of Jewish lives. (As if someone in a position of power either on the “Zionist” side or the “Palestinian” side is asking you or any of us for our opinion.)
Yedl – “The words “low benefit kiruv” hurt me, because I am only frum today because a Lubavitcher Chassid was Mekarev my grandfather in 1960. Am I a low benefit?”
Reb Yedl, many (not all, or even most) of the people here aren’t interested in sincere and meaningful discussion. They want a “rage room” where they can vent their steam without revealing their real identity and therefore with no consequences. The “problem” is they understand that isn’t so Kosher, so the “solution” is to find some שעיר לעזאזל who is “יוצא מכלל עמיתך” according to them, and therefore “fair game” for Lashon Hara, Onaas Devorim, etc. The three most popular choices are “Zionists”, “Neturei Karta”, or Lubavitch. (Not that I equate the three groups.) It has nothing to do with you, and not much to do with them either.
Yedl – “when someone has a warm fuzzy feeling, is he doing the Mitzvas Aseh of Ahavas Hashem?”
Yes, actually, on a basic level. (אהבה טבעית vs. אהבה רבה etc. There is actually a lot of profound “Reid” in the ספרים הקדושים on the supposedly “fuzzy feeling” stuff.) How is anyone מחנך children (little or big or sometimes even adults…) to Ahavas Hashem, Ahavas HaTorah, Ahavas HaMitzvos? With warm fuzzy emotion that doesn’t involve big Hasagos. Obviously there is much room to grow further over the course of a lifetime.
The Baal Shem Tov taught 60 great Talmidim, most of whom were already great Geonim and Lamdanim before they met the Baal Shem Tov, and many were already or went on to become Rabbonim and Poskim. The Baal Shem Tov had what to teach them just as much (and more) as he had what to teach Poshute Yidden. The trope that Chassidus is only about “feelings” and not Torah ח״ו is מזוייף מתוכו. There is a very important Inyan not to NEGLECT “feelings”, not to REJECT “Poshute Yidden”, not to be מבטל any aspect of חובת האדם בעולמו OTHER than “only” Lomdus, but none of this is a סתירה to גדלות בתורה or the centrality of Torah in the life of a Yid.
DaMoshe said – “I’d say the Gra was definitely correct.”
I am מוחה on you being מבזה the Gra זי״ע. It’s assur to say such a thing even about your father or your Rebbi, let alone about גדולי הדורות from 250 years ago. The Gra זי״ע doesn’t need your הסכמה.
Before you and some other chevra on this thread open up your פי חזיר כבית הכסא ניידא דמי to be מבזה Gedolim from centuries ago, you should first learn what the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע and later גדולי החסידות זי״ע really said (and didn’t say), what the Gra זי״ע and later גדולי ליטא זי״ע said (and didn’t say), and also what the Shulchan Aruch says…
I am writing this as מחאה, not as an invitation for more debate.
This thread began with the following statement:
“I believe that there are many people here who identify as “Chassidim” or “Chassidish” or something like that.
In my mind, this means that their life has been effected in some way by a revolution started by the Ba’al Shem Tov a few hundred years ago.
I am very curious to know how different people feel about this:
How would your Yiddishkeit or life in general have been different if not for the Ba’al Shem Tov?
What does it mean to you that you are a Chassid?”In other words, a self-identified Chossid, asked fellow Chassidim or those interested in Chassidus or with some Kesher to Chassidus, to discuss what Chassidus means to them. Anyone opposed to the Baal Shem Tov or Chassidus, or who doesn’t believe his Derech still exists, need not comment altogether. Just go on with your life as usual. Why the venom? Why the ביזוי תלמידי חכמים from close to 300 years ago?
The Beis Haleivi’s granddaughter (daughter of Reb Chaim Brisker) was married to a Chossid. The Chofetz Chaim in Mishna Berura quotes the Shulchan Aruch Harav with the same or greater frequency, and deliberately using the same honorific title (HaGRaZ – HaGRA), as he quotes the Vilna Gaon. If you don’t like Chassidus, don’t be a Chossid. Be an Ehrlicher Litvak. But don’t be a shaygetz who is מבזה תלמידי חכמים.
somejew – “as a Yid, what issue do you have with the “One State Solution” as a replacement for today’s government? (giving its proponents the benefit of the doubt that there is a practical path to that goal). Isn’t the “extreme leftist post-zionism” just the same as every other fully secular western government?”
Show me even one Arab-only country where democracy works altogether, let alone a country with mostly Muslim Arabs and other large groups. Do you know anything about the history of Lebanon? Are Jews able to live there today?
HaKatan – “The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.
As well, “post-Zionist” opposition to Judaism is far better for Jews than Zionist opposition to Judaism because Zionist opposition to Judaism stems from its need to redefine and replace Judaism with Zionism, while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.”“The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.”
Where do you see them? In Brooklyn? In Rockland County? I live in Eretz Yisroel, and I don’t see them here, except in the Beis Hakevoros.
The Israeli Supreme Court, the Attorney General, the Israeli “mainstream media”, and almost all the major players in the battle against Yiddishkeit in Eretz Yisroel, all subscribe to the Post-Zionist ideology (although they don’t necessarily support a one state solution in practice at this point, for the practical reason that the Arabs are not ready for peaceful coexistence…) Post-Zionism is based on Progressive ideology, which is pro-Toeva, pro-Arayos, etc. They want to replace Judaism with Progressivism and Universalism, which is the real המשך of Zionism – ככל הגויים בית ישראל.
“while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.”
Of course they do, they just have a NEW AND DIFFERENT ideology of Rishus.
Reb Yedl – מה לכהן בקברות, there are better places to ask serious questions.