Yaakov Yosef A

Yankel Berel – I didn’t disagree with your basic line of argument on the למעשה level, my intention was just to point out that it is possible to be very krum, and maybe even a bona-fide אפיקורוס, without technically crossing any Halachic lines (of the type that would make someone פסול לעדות יין נסך etc.) Also, that most aspects of Emuna in general fall under the category of חובות הלבבות which only Hashem can judge. So there is what to think about there and be careful (on all sides of the fence). I agree that a person can be a fine Ehrilcher Yid who also happens to believe in building settlements down the road from Shechem, and that doesn’t make him an אפיקורוס, probably not even according to the Satmar Rebbe. The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists. I also posted here more than once that it is possible to be a Satmar Chossid with 100% impeccable anti-Zionist credentials, and still help build Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel. (Something many such people actually do.) Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.

AAQ – Maybe there is a moment now, again, to try to join together, whether in the army or in Tehilim.

All noise to the contrary notwithstanding, on the person-to-person grassroots level, there is much more אחדות here than you may think. We hope to Hashem אך טוב לישראל ברוחניות ובגשמיות.

Yankel Berel said – The fact is that one could be a bona fide religious zionist nowadays without any agadic heresy either.

Agree with you 100%, although it may depend on the specific flavor of ‘Dati Leumi’ in question. The DL world itself is a broad and colorful spectrum from people who are Chareidi plus in their lifestyle and עבודת השם, but also believe that building settlements on the hills of Shomron will be מקרב the גאולה, to people like Naftali Bennett, who I wouldn’t take לכתחילה as an עד for anything, but not because of the ‘Zionist’ stuff…

However, it is also perfectly possible for someone to be fully observant of Orthodox Judaism, at least outwardly, and still be an אפיקורוס, only based on his krum beliefs or lack thereof. Just to give an easy example: One of the 13 Ikkarim is belief in תחיית המתים. There is no נפקא מינה in day-to-day behavior or observance of other areas of Halacha directly connected to that belief. One could even theoretically believe in שכר ועונש and עולם הבא (in some form other than what our Mesorah says), yet לכל הדעות failure to believe in this particular doctrine (which you may call אגדתא), clearly triggers Halachic consequences and makes a person a bona-fide אפיקורוס who is פסול לעדות etc. There is precedent in Poskim (at least לכתחילה) to avoid taking as an עד someone who clearly denies or is מזלזל in beliefs, minhagim, or aspects of the Mesorah that have been accepted by כלל ישראל, even if he doesn’t technically deny any of the 13 Ikkarim or violate any Halacha.

5TResident – Of course, you live comfortably under the blanket of security of the Five Towns, while complaining about the way we deal with the complex situation here. There is a lot more going on here on all sides than you will ever see on YWN, so it is disingenuous to just throw out cheap complaints. The Poskim, Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbes, etc., who live here and dedicate their lives to helping and guiding Yidden here, are not ‘complaining’. They are dealing with very real problems that even the (more serious end of the) Dati-Leumi do not deny exist. Are you aware, for example, that there is a movement of Dati-Leumi women lobbying to protect their husbands (who serve in active combat units) from ‘gender integration issues’ in the Army ודי למבין…

On a practical level, the Army needs the Chareidim like a hole in their head. On the Secular side, this is all about Right versus Left, Supreme Court versus elected government, Only Bibi versus Anything Other Than Bibi, Yuli Edelstein trying to send his boss into retirement and become the next boss, Bennett taking another shot at the Piñata and not caring what will happen the day after, and other שאר ירקות that are very relevant to the security needs of Israel. There are plenty of Tzfonbonim who go to college in Europe instead of going to the Army, or else do a short stint in an Army office or media outlet. On the Chareidi (and a growing portion of the Chardali) side, this is primarily about והיה מחניך קדוש, which is a very serious issue that can potentially be יהרג ואל יעבור, (for girls, literally יהרג ואל יעבור, as paskened by the חזון איש). If you don’t know what a ‘Tzfonboni’ or a ‘Chardali’ is, then you may want to educate yourself more about the nuances of Israeli society before formulating your opinions.

Yankel Berel – WRT your distinction between ‘Halachic’ heresy vs. ‘Aggadic’ heresy.

I agree with you in principle that in order for heresy to trigger Halachic consequences in a Beis Din Shel Matah there must be a crossing of some sort of threshold that can be measured and assessed by human judgement, just like anything else subject to דין של מטה. That doesn’t mean that a person who has krum hashkafos in Hashem’s eyes will not be subject to דין של מעלה, potentially even to the point of losing Olam Haba ח״ו. In other words, the fact that something may be a דבר המסור ללב, doesn’t necessarily make it less WRONG, just not ENFORCEABLE. The last perek of Sanhedrin discusses various attitudes that brand one as an אפיקורוס, including ׳מאי אהני לן רבנן׳, something that shows up in the comments section on this web site almost every day… If one uses the cop-out of calling ‘Aggadita’, then THERE IS NO HALACHIC DEFINITION OF אפיקורוס ANYWHERE ELSE IN ש״ס. This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות (even to the point of יין נסך etc.) בקיצור, if one ח״ו writes off אגדתא as not binding להלכה, then the Gemara doesn’t tell us ANYTHING binding להלכה about what to believe, which is absurd. As it is, the רמב״ם derived most of the 13 Ikkarim from that Gemara, and codifies them in his introduction to that פרק. He also codified הלכות יסודי התורה and הלכות דיעות based almost entirely on Aggadita. So, whether anyone likes it or not, Aggadita CAN AND MUST in fact also be binding למעשה. The question then becomes – תכלית למעשה how do we know what, when, and to what extent? Here there is much gray area and דברים המסורים ללב, and it is specifically in this area that דעת תורה becomes essential. HOWEVER – seeing as we don’t have a recognized Sanhedrin for כלל ישראל, no particular group can impose its שיטות in דברים המסורים ללב on any other group, except to the extent that all normative Orthodox Jewish traditions agree. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a big deal what you believe, it is a HUGE deal, because it permeates all aspects of our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, which is the Tachlis of life itself.

HaKatan said – Regardless, Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was “responsible for all the tuma in America”.

When and where and in front of whom did Rav Aharon Kotler make that statement? There was a lot of טומאה going on in (Jewish) America going back almost a century before Rav Soloveitchik even arrived there. Even with regard to RIETS/YU itself, the place was what it was decades before Rav Soloveitchik got there. If you know a little bit about what was going on in America before Reb Aharon (and the Satmar Rebbe and other Gedolim) arrived, YU was א האלבע צרה by comparison… I suspect that this ‘statement’ is either not accurate or taken way out of context.

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan was a fascinating and very special Yid, who already was a one-man revolution both in Kiruv, and in making profound Torah ideas accessible in English, before his life was tragically cut short. He was also very much into the works of Rebbe Nachman of Breslev, and was surely aware of that מסורה when he wrote his books. (I believe he may even bring the quote by name somewhere in his many ספרים.)

There was a time when there was simply almost nothing else in America. So whoever was born in America, or had to flee to America (and needed a visa affidavit with a job offer) ended up there, regardless of whether they agreed with every aspect of their hashkafah. At that time, prior to Bernard Revel, RIETS was closer to being a regular Yeshiva. It would be inaccurate to say they ‘separated’ from the Yeshivish Velt, because they were לכתחילה catering to an American audience at a time when the mainstream Yeshiva world was still located in Europe. Post WWII, when thousands of survivors arrived in the US, regular Litvish Yeshivos were also rebuilt in America in a somewhat modified form, and RIETS itself remained more or less what it was beforehand. Once other options were available, parents and bochurim could choose where to go. It’s not like RIETS was once an integral part of the European Yeshiva Velt and then split off and went its own way…

somejewiknow said – “those who live under the zionists are less entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they are more noegea b’duvar”

I guess so, if they still existed. Those who are clueless about what is really going on here aren’t נוגע בדבר. In fact, they aren’t even נוגע altogether…

Evalimoshavlo said – “As was written in different thread, the name Zionists was hijacked, true identity theft!
The word zionist needs to be redefined and brought back home into the fold.
A zionist is someone who loves Tzion, someone who cares about what happens in EY and tries to improve whatever needs to be improved.”

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don’t think you need to use the word ‘Zionist’ in order to say it. Love of Tziyon goes back way before ‘Zionism’, like back to Avraham Avinu… Herzl שר״י was not a lover of Tziyon. He famously was in favor of building a (Goyish) Jewish State in Uganda. Some good people explained to him that the Jewish people already have a homeland they yearn to return to, and that only by hijacking that yearning would his (אפיקורסות) idea gain any traction with traditional Jews, who were still the majority at that time. On the other hand, there were and are many opponents of ‘Zionism’ who were/are ardent lovers of Tziyon, care very much about what happens here, and do things to improve whatever needs to be improved. All of us can agree to disagree on WHAT exactly needs to be done, but we can also agree that the term ‘Zionism’ isn’t necessarily part of the equation.

I saw written years ago that Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik (of RIETS), in his Hesped for his uncle Reb Velvel Soloveitchik (of Brisk/Yerushalayim), pointed out that Reb Velvel’s strong and unwavering opposition to Zionism was never a סתירה to his great love of ארץ ישראל and it’s people… He also noted the irony that the ‘Zionist’ branch of the family resided in חוץ לארץ, and the ‘anti-Zionist’ branch all ended up living in Israel…

SQUARE_ROOT – With all due disrespect for the fake neo-NK, if you keep up your ‘Every member of the (bogus) NK is ___’ for another few lines, you will have more ‘every member’ than they have members… They are a few dozen (at most) deranged attention seekers. That’s all. They are protesting against a straw-man/boogeyman that no longer exists, and the more normal Yidden yell at them, the bigger an adrenaline high they get.

Chaim_Baruch – I reside in Israel for close to 30 years, although I would describe myself as ‘non-Zionist’ more than ‘anti-Zionist’. If Zionism in its original form still existed, then I would be anti-Zionist… I am opposed to Yidden not knowing about Yiddishkeit, something the dead Zionists are major shareholders in (but not exclusive shareholders.) The remedy for that is יפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה, not yelling and screaming.

ZSK – I would go further and say that those who are actually familiar with the matzav here understand that the entirety of Israeli society (Chareidi, DL, Mesorti, and Secular) is nuanced and multi-layered. The most radical opponents of classical Zionist ideology today are probably the Meretz/One-State-Solution/IDF=baby-killers types. I doubt that ‘ujm’ knows anything about them, and if he would see them, he would probably think they are big Zionists because they are big atheists… He probably doesn’t know the difference between Noam Chomsky and Bibi Netanyahu… Or between ‘Mamlachti’ DL and ‘Har HaMor’ or ‘Noar G’vaot’… Or even the nuances of local intra-Chareidi politics…

ujm – Jews in London, NY, etc. are entitled to whatever opinion they want on any subject. There is a separate question of how seriously to take your opinion… That depends (among other things) on how familiar you are with the subject matter, and how seriously you take your own opinions (by acting on them in a meaningful way.) On this topic, that is something greatly affected by whether or not you live here. If you think that today’s ‘Zionists’ are located in Tel Aviv and Haifa, that shows how much you know about the demographics and society of ארץ ישראל today… That will affect how seriously people take your opinions…

ujm said – “Miss Milgrim was a member of the local Reform Temple in her hometown in Kansas.”

So ממה נפשך. If she was Jewish according to Halacha, so she was a תינוקת שנשבה למהדרין מן המהדרין לכל הדעות, because she didn’t even grow up in a place where she was likely to encounter Orthodox Jews of any kind. If she wasn’t Jewish כהלכה then she wasn’t doing anything wrong by planning to marry a non-Jew… At any rate, as has been pointed out, the filthy רוצח who killed them didn’t check their יחוס first. If your point is that the secular Israeli State and its overseas agencies spread confusion on the subject of מי הוא יהודי, then yes, that is a big problem. But people with basic human sensitivity understand that now is not the time to talk about this issue.

“At the Israeli embassy in Washington, Miss Milgrim was assigned to work with homosexual groups and women’s organizations, and she was in charge of outreach to progressive and social justice-oriented groups.”

If you learned Maseches Sanhedrin and Maseches Makkos you would know that even someone who actually did חיובי מיתה במזיד, and was executed by בית דין, we say כיון שלקה הרי הוא כאחיך. If you have complaints or ideas about where her נשמה is going, you have to take that up with the בית דין של מעלה, but I don’t recommend being in a hurry to visit their office… Honestly, I don’t know if you and I are better in Hashem’s eyes than her. She really and truly didn’t know better. In her limited understanding of Judaism, she probably thought that working at the Israeli Embassy was a very wonderful Jewish thing to do. Is it sad that innocent נשמות are confused by all kinds of meshigasen, including but not limited to those promoted by the Israeli Government? Yes, very much so. If that bothers you, (and it should), so either engage in קירוב רחוקים or donate to those who do… You’d be surprised that right here in ארץ ישראל you can find many fine Kosher anti-Zionist Yidden who are big into being מקרב our brothers and sisters, and are capable of communicating with them in a way they can appreciate. If you can’t do that, then at least don’t do damage.

AAQ – “This is again picturing the other side as the extreme”

Please read carefully: To make a ‘binary choice’ between a GOYISH VELT that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically.

I.e. – When I said ‘Goyish Velt’ I meant literal ‘Goyim’, not ח״ו any Jew of any sort. And yes, the ‘goyish velt’ REALLY IS extreme. If you are aware of what is going on today on college campuses etc. it is EXTREME. My only point (which I spelled out multiple times already) was that in the eyes of today’s Progressive Post-Modern 400 gender Goyish velt, even YU are ultra-right-wing extremists, no less than me (and probably you, for that matter…) IMHO, this is going in a direction that will eventually leave the more serious MO “Chareidi by default”. Sort of ‘we didn’t leave Modernity, Modernity left us’…

Just nudge your community to accept modernity to the extent R Twersky did.

Rav Twersky himself, in his books, pointed out that in his day college campuses were very different than what they have become today (he wrote that about 30 years ago…) In his day, the main challenge was from Kefirah, and he avoided that by going to a Catholic college IIRC… Nowadays (again, writing in the mid 90s…) the biggest issue on campus is פריצות, which is a more difficult challenge for most people. It’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky… He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it… Everything else about his lifestyle, family, חינוך of his own children, etc. was 100% heimish.

and respect others that do – and let’s talk then.

I mentioned previously my respect for Reb Yoshe Ber z”l and some of his talmidim… I am aware of his hashkafah, and I don’t see that as an automatic סתירה to respect. I do wonder what his take would be on Post-Modernism and where it’s going today, as well as this idea of mine about MO eventually facing a crossroads that will force them to define who they really are. He probably would write something with a title like “Halachic Man and the Rupture of Modernity in a Post-Modern World”…

Never forget – everyone here has at least 613 things that we all can agree on… And we will all celebrate that in a week and a half from now…

somejewiknow – The Ramban (parshas ki savo) says the Divine promise of protection for the Jewish people is specifically for the Jews in chitz l’uretz – making Eretz Yisroel the most dangerous place for Jews.

Not exactly… The Ramban only says there that once the Jewish people go into Galus in חוץ לארץ (which we did…), then the גזרה of חורבן ends, and the promise of לא מאסתים ולא געלתים לכלותם kicks in.

This thread is still going?

1. It’s very easy to be a Zionist or an anti-Zionist from the comfort of your home in America…

2. ‘Secular Zionism’ (originally known as ‘Auto-Emancipation’ before Herzl ימ״ש found out that ‘Zion’ existed…) is the belief that Jews can be the ‘masters of their own destiny’ and solve their problems (especially antisemitism) by establishing their own state (anywhere, no connection to ארץ ישראל). That, according to them, would result in the Goyim accepting the independent Jewish State as an equal member of the community of nations i.e. ככל הגויים בית ישראל. That is straight כפירות ואפיקורסות גמורה לכל הדעות.

3. There was and is a separate idea of hishtadlus to speed up the Geulah, particularly through יישוב ארץ ישראל, (which as a mitzvah in itself may or may not apply today altogether). This idea of speeding up the Geulah through hishtadlus, but not denying that only Hashem is in control, was the hashkafah of the חובבי ציון movement, which predated Herzl by two decades, and remains the hashkafah of the various forms of Religious Zionism. It is WRT this idea (not the other one) that there were חילוקי דעות among Gedolei Yisroel of that era.

4. Fast forward 120 or so years… (I am not interested in wasting time on rehashing and debating the history, קל וחומר on klering chakiros what could have/should have/would have been if only whatever…) Millions of Yidden live here. Secular Zionism has long since gone out of style. No sane person can claim that Israel has been accepted ‘as an equal member of the community of nations’, or even is in control of its own destiny… Most (all?) of the politicians only care about political survival, not any particular ideology. Those who oppose Yiddishkeit in Israel today do so mainly in the name of Progressive/Post-Modern ideology. Religious Zionism ironically still exists, despite also being despised by the Progressives…

5. This leaves us with a practical set of facts on the ground that have to be dealt with. There are different approaches HOW to deal with the State once it exists, הלא הם כתובים על ספר דברי הימים. I do not consider myself qualified to judge תלמיד חכם זה נאה ותלמיד חכם זה אינו נאה, so I’ll leave it at that… Since we live here, unlike you, we don’t have the luxury of contemplating theoretical scenarios that start with ‘What if?’. Even Satmar etc. agree that there is no scenario על פי דרך הטבע to shut down the State any time in the foreseeable future without massive loss of Jewish life ר״ל. I don’t think any Yid not mentally ill holds that to be an option. And if NOT על פי דרך הטבע, it might as well be ended by Moshiach… Hence, my earlier post. None of this is a סתירה to not believing in either type of Zionism, just a practical reality.

somejewiknow said – “You seem to be fully unaware that the heresy called “Religious Zionism” that exists today is even worse and dangerous to Jews than secular zionism at its worst.”

Hold your horses Reb Yid… I know all about ‘Religious Zionism’, (I’m not sure you do…), and there is a very wide range of people who go by that name. Some of them are almost Chilonim in their behavior and hashkafa (Bennett and friends come to mind), and some of them are fine ehrlicher Yidden and עובדי השם, who also happen to believe in settling the Land as part of their Avodah… I don’t think that the lady from the Shomron who nebech was murdered last week and her husband could seriously be seen as “even worse and dangerous to Jews than secular zionism at its worst”. You do know what ‘secular Zionism at its worst’ did, do you? (שמד of Sephardim, Yaldei Tehran, collaborating with the Holocaust, political murder, etc.)

To be clear, I don’t agree with any kind of Zionism בשיטה, but I don’t automatically write off Yidden who do. But it is easier for you to feel good about yourself that ‘at least I’m NOT a Zionist’, especially if you anyway live in America… It’s equally easy for MO to feel good about themselves that ‘at least I AM a Zionist’, especially if they anyway live in America…

My point was that today it is rapidly becoming no longer possible to be both Modern and Orthodox, regardless of your position on Zionism.

AAQ – “I am sure there are places that try to keep with the “Joneses” in all these things. I am not talking about that at all. I am not talking about that. Just about basics of reading/writing/math/science/professions. Rambam learned greek and “modern” Arab science without getting involved in their toevot.”

I have no doubt whatsoever that you (and the YU leadership) have no intention of having anything to do with ‘toevah’ stuff. The issue is that (for example) a professor of biology (not even a Supreme Court judge…) merely expressing the viewpoint that there are only two genders is enough to get ‘cancelled’ in academia, media, etc. Even ‘pareve’ medical information websites (again, for example, this is becoming more pervasive everywhere) use language that would make Orwell blush, ostensibly to avoid offending the 0.05% of the population who is confused about their gender identity. (At least that was the number before it became a ‘social contagion’.) This isn’t a joke. There are Orthodox Jewish professionals and academics in various fields who are afraid to say certain things, for fear of being labeled ‘transphobic’, let alone ‘homophobic’. These are people who are very well versed in secular knowledge, and probably consider themselves to be ‘modern’, but the secular world they worked so hard to be accepted in no longer sees them as modern (or at least wouldn’t if they would say what they really think and believe…) Kiruv literature and websites, and even anything that could be seen in the outside public domain, have to be more and more careful not to ‘trigger’ anyone. What happens when the goyish velt deteriorates to the point where it is no longer possible to play the game of ‘modernity’? We will have to stand up and say “Yes, we believe in God Almighty the Creator who created only two genders, and He even has what to say about how they are to behave…”

None of this is inherently a סתירה to secular ‘knowledge’ per se, but it is a סתירה to secular modernity as a value. If we are honest with ourselves, how much of Modern Orthodoxy is simply aping goyish values and seeking acceptance from them, without technically violating the Halacha (hopefully)? If the Goyim will look at ‘Modern Orthodox’ as right-wing extremists, similar to the ‘Ultra-Orthodox’, that kind of takes all the fun out of it… The Rambam did not define himself in terms of his secular knowledge, nor did he see it as a value in itself. That is not the position of YU (for example).

BTW, Rav Dr. Avraham J. Twersky z”I himself notes in his memoirs that in his day (pre-68…) college campuses were far less toxic than they are now (in terms of גילוי עריות), and he acknowledged that his example is not automatically transferable to today’s מצב. He also did not define himself as Modern, and he didn’t raise his own children that way, despite his knowledge and professional accomplishments.

The bottom line is, even if you want to be Modern and value modernity, (and I’m not interested in debating the merits of that whole approach) that isn’t enough to convince the goyish velt anymore, unless you keep a VERY low profile about the ‘Orthodox’ part.

AAQ – “But do you see a stirah here between your 2 statements? If the rebbe is not infallible, then there is a place for non-rebbes to come up with solutions.”

Who said anything about anyone being ‘infallible’? Even אם תמצא לומר he WAS infallible, that isn’t the same as omniscient and omnipotent, and having every solution for every problem, attributes that לכל הדעות only apply to the Ribbono Shel Olam Himself. Daas Torah/Emunas Chachomim is not ‘infallibility’. It refers to an enhanced סייעתא דשמיא to both discern true רצון השם and to carry it out successfully. It does not automatically guarantee smooth sailing בגשמיות, or even ברוחניות for that matter. If it would, then there would be no בחירה. This is basic Hashkafah 101, לכל השיטות והדעות. The reason most Chassidim and many non-Chassidim ask their Rebbeyim guidance in areas not directly covered by Halacha is because there is much רצון השם that is not spelled out explicitly in Poskim…

“If the rebbe is not infallible, then there is a place for non-rebbes to come up with solutions.”

Moshe Rabbeinu was as close to infallible as any human being could possibly be, and in his capacity as transmitter of רצון השם to כלל ישראל he was in fact infallible, yet there was room for Pinchas to take the initiative to kill Zimri, for the טמאים לנפש to ask for and receive פסח שני, and for the בנות צלפחד to ask for and receive the פרשה of inheritance. Sarah Shenirer didn’t just run ahead with her idea on her own, she did seek guidance from the Belzer Rebbe, and not much later got the emphatic support of the Imrei Emes of Ger, who sent his own granddaughter. There is enough room for many צדיקים and ehrliche Yidden (men and women), big and small, through all the ages. We are able to make נחת רוח for Hashem Yisborach by rising above our challenges, in a way that even Moshe Rabbeinu and the Avos could not. If not, then Hashem wouldn’t have created us in the first place…

“His solution: an article in a Yiddishe paper summarizing halochos of mikva on one page”

That’s all he ever did? Not exactly. Are you aware of how many short sefarim and pamphlets the Chofetz Chaim wrote, including those specifically geared towards women? (Including on טהרת המשפחה and tzeniyus issues.) He wrote for bochurim conscripted in goyish armies and for those who went to work abroad in places where their Yiddishkeit would be challenged. He did much more, read up a little about his life and work. What do you suggest he should have done, given the logistical and financial limitations of Eastern Europe more than a century ago? As it is, he probably did more ‘outreach’ than any other Gadol of that era. But no one person, no matter how big, can ever do everything. That’s WHY there is plenty of room for the Sarah Shenirers, within the framework of Emunas Chachomim.

Somehow, learning how to divide a talit that two people are holding is worthy learning, but a contemporary issue is relegated to “let the Rebbe tell us”.

For starters, because ‘contemporary issues’ are vastly more susceptible to interference from the good old Yetzer Hara than halachic discussions spelled out in the Gemara… “Let the Rebbe tell us” protects you from אדם קרוב אצל עצמו. As I mentioned in my previous post about Reb Yoshe Ber z”l,, it could be anyone bigger than you ברוחניות as long as both of you are sincere. Rav Avigdor Miller (and many others) often said that the point of learning Gemara and Poskim etc. is to understand the מושגים and language of the Torah. Without that, it’s like a cow going to a Rav for guidance… That also won’t work…

Rav Avraham Twersky integrates psychology w/ Torah – while he was treating nuns (he has a book about just that).

Yes he did. He also corresponded extensively with the Steipler Gaon, and went to the Mikveh every day while going to medical school…

חכמה בגויים תאמין refers to technical know-how, not guidance on the תכלית החיים and רצון השם, which, for Yidden, define and permeate every aspect of life.

I also believe that the sugya of Toeivah Rights is much more relevant today than Zionism, because secular Zionism basically no longer exists. Those who oppose Yiddishkeit in Israel today do so in the name of Progressive ideology, and Toeivah/’gender’ integration (39 flavors variety) is high on their list of priorities, including especially in the Army.

AAQ – “I agree, except disagreeing with MORE or LESS (putting aside Chofetz Chaim who said – people say that in our time, one should be frum/frum/and then klug, but I say klug/klug and then frum).”

I wasn’t making a value judgment on who is truly more frum, just noting that people in general (myself included) have more difficulty liking people who’s superior conduct makes them feel less comfortable with their own ruchniyus. That’s human nature. I used the term ‘frum’ but what I really meant and should have said is ‘ehrlich’. ‘Frum’ is usually understood in terms of measurable and visible things. “Ehrlichkeit’ is about pnimiyus, and only Hashem really knows.

‘Klug’, in the sense you refer to, is a metric unto itself. It is entirely possible for someone to be genuinely frum, and even ehrlich, without being very bright… It’s also possible to be very clever, even ‘religiously’, but not ehrlich…

“Chabad Alter Rebbe once went down to his son’s apartment (future Rebbe, I presume) and saw him deep in learning while a baby left by the wife to be watched was crying. Rebbe reprimanded his son for not paying attention to the baby.”

The young father in the story was Rebbe Dov Ber, the second (‘Mitteler’) Rebbe of Chabad. The way this is usually understood is that he was so intensely focused that he literally didn’t hear the baby. He wasn’t indifferent to his child’s cries. (This isn’t far-fetched, Both Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadiah Yosef zt”l were filmed on video deep in learning and completely oblivious to noisy groups of people who entered the room with flashing cameras etc., until they finished whatever it is they were focused on.) The Baal HaTanya, who did hear the baby despite his own awe inspiring level of focus, taught him that a Tzaddik needs to reach a level that no amount of deveykus and concentration can stop him from feeling the pain of a Yid in distress…

“Metaphorically, not paying attention to your brothers, to your own obligations, to Hashem’s world is not necessarily more observant.”

Our own obligations, to ourselves and to our brothers, need to be defined by the Torah. If someone (for example) doesn’t go to the army because his Rebbe holds that is not good for him, then he is DOING his obligation, not IGNORING it. If you or others hold of a different system, that doesn’t make HIM not ‘ehrlich’ within his system. You bring up frequently ‘paying attention to Hashem’s world’. This is an interesting subject, but you are using this idea not in the traditional understanding of the term. You seem to refer to various phenomena (‘Modernity’ etc. and all that entails) as ‘Hashem’s world’, when they really are the world of בעלי בחירה who use their בחירה badly… This is like those who saw (for example) Zionism and its founders as a Divine phenomenon because some good things came of it. On a deeper level, everyone is a שליח of Hashem’s Providence, whether they like it or not. Without Haman and Achashverosh we wouldn’t have Purim. Without Pharaoh we wouldn’t have Pesach. But we wouldn’t go to Haman or Pharaoh to learn about Ratzon Hashem… We would go to Moshe Rabbeinu or Mordechai. Fast forward, there is no question that Herzl was a tool in Hashem’s Plan. So was Marx. So was Hitler for that matter… But despite them indisputably being part of Hashem’s world, we don’t look to them for guidance… We look to the Torah and the teachers of Torah. This also has nothing to do with being ‘observant’, except maybe being literally ‘observant’ of what is going on…

“I learned sometimes with charedi type people and sometimes with “modern”. Yes, there are more rishonim quoted in charedi discussions, but there is way more in depth discussion of the sugya in the “modern” shiur, where participants include top engineers/doctors/college professors – both by an occasional Aristotle or Josephus quote, but also by applying their seichel.”

There are different calibers and qualities of sechel, both among doctors/professors and among kollel yungeleit… Anecdotal experience with a non-representative sample doesn’t constitute proof. Ask a professor to do a comprehensive statistically sound comparative study… There is also a difference between a ‘deeper’ understanding of a sugya and a ‘flashier/more exciting’ understanding. Why would quoting Aristotle or Josephus add ‘depth’ to a discussion of Gemara? That would only add ‘flair’ among people who value secular sources more than Torah itself. This is also ignoring the issue of who has true pshat in the sugya and who does not. Rishonim dedicated their lives to toiling in Torah and living Torah. So, it follows, their opinion is more valued than that of Aristotle…

“It would laughable to consider first group frummer than the second.”

What does any of this have to do with ‘frum’?

“I was discussing someone with a Lwood person (ltoeles) and started mentioning, admiring that that person was at YU (at a top shiur by a R’Y) and then in Lakewood and now in another place – really very broad horizons. I could not finish my sentence though as the response came “YU is not a problem for him”. I frankly presume that the speaker would not be shining at that top YU shiur, but I don’t think he understands it.”

I don’t know what that proves. I know closely two choshuv Yidden who were genuine Talmidim of Reb Yoshe Bar Soloveitchik z”l. One of them is a prominent MO Rav, the other is a family member of mine, a learned and ehrlich person, but not a Rav. They were chavrusas back in the day in RIETS. When I say ‘talmidim’, I mean that they actually asked Reb Yoshe Ber for guidance in life and followed it, whether convenient for them or not. Both of them are exceptionally ehrlich people. The one who is a Rav resigned from a very lucrative MO congregation because they wanted to institute a ‘women’s prayer group’ and other such deviations. How many people went through YU and did not come out with such fortitude? IMHO, it is their personal kesher with Reb Yoshe Ber that built them into what they are. On the other hand, there are people who cruise through the ‘right’ places with the ‘right’ Roshei Yeshiva etc., but they never really were mekabel anything… And of course many cruised through YU and לכתחילה didn’t look for anything. But these two did. (I’m not saying no one else did, but these two I know did.) This is what Daas Torah/Emunas Chachomim really means. When someone defers to someone bigger than him ברוחניות, Hashem helps him grow. It’s a matter of humility and sincerity, that begets סייעתא דשמיא.

WRT why, for example, Sarah Shenirer and not the Chafetz Chaim started Beis Yaakov, there is a concept that each נשמה has a שליחות in this world that no one else can accomplish, even someone bigger. We find in the Gemara תענית כד that לא מצית למיעבד כעובדא דאבא אומנא. See ליקוטי מוהר״ן סימן לד for example, although this isn’t exclusively a Chassidish concept by any means. That isn’t a חיסרון in the Chafetz Chaim ח״ו, but the initiative had to come from the one who was zocheh to it.

With that I will sign off for now. I won’t have time next week to post. Take care and good Shabbos.

Yankel Berel – BTW, that would mean the Chareidim were even more involved, not less…

AAQ said – “There were no Meah Shearim, everybody could read newspapers. They were in Yiddish and in Hebrew and in Polish and in Russian. I think you are projecting current charedi community into 1920s and think Mizrahi went there.”

(Um, scratching head…) Huh? in Meah Shearim whoever wants can easily read כל תועבות שבעולם on all types of media from printed to electronic without anyone being the wiser… If they don’t (I believe most don’t ברוך השם), it’s only because they consciously choose מרצונם הטוב מתוך בחירה חופשית to listen to the Gedolim who tell them not to. Do you seriously think today’s Chareidim are MORE insulated than our great-great-great-Zeidies were 130 years ago?! Mizrachi first came on the scene in the 1890s, at that time the wholesale yeridah was mainly in the cities, the small town Yidden were still vastly more innocent than we are today. By the 1920’s, post the upheaval of WWI, the matzav was worse.

“The modern movements were very attractive: “we can build a new life!” If you and I were there, we would probably join also. So, under these conditions, Zionism in general was a good thing comparing to the alternatives – taking people with socialist (left wing) or nationalist (right wing) ideas into building up Jewish nation instead of Russian/Polish/German or world communism. And, of course, religious Zionism let people combine these new passions with traditional Judaism. I would say even if/where they went too far (from our view a century later),”

The various ‘isms of the late 1800s were not about living the good life. Most of the early Maskilim were ‘starving artist’ types who were ‘lishma’ in their krum way. The people who joined were also not burned out people looking for an easier or better life. (Those types went to America if they could… Not trying to downplay the nisayon of either group, just clarifying what we are talking about.) The typical profile of the Socialist/Marxist were young, bright, and idealistic youths out to save the world. Those who were strong in Emuna channeled their youthful idealism into Torah and mitzvos. Those who were not, knew they were not Kosher Jewishly and made a conscious decision to leave. Mizrachi did not recruit among people who were already socialists, and offer them some Yiddishkeit to go with their Communist Manifesto… They recruited from inside the Beis Hamidrash and Shul, from those who had no intention of going OTD.

“And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so.”

Reb Elchonon zt”l hy”d simply and literally made exactly that cheshbon, on his own flesh, and chose to go back to near-certain death rather than join the faculty of YU… I was simply pointing out that the vast majority of adults alive pre-WWII are anyway no longer alive today regardless of what happened to them during the war. The only question is where ARE they NOW? In the Heichal of Harugei Malchus with Rabbi Akiva? In the Heichal of the Chafetz Chaim or Reb Chaim Brisker or at least Ehrlicher Baalei Agalos? Or downstairs with Herzl and Karl Marx? Sooner or later, that is all that matters for all of us.

All of this talk about the Holocaust is really just a waste of time. The Holocaust was a גזרה מן השמים that could not be stopped by any means, ברוחניות ובגשמיות, many מחללי שבת and even Zionists were killed, and many Frum people escaped. The vast majority of people didn’t have real options to escape, unless they had money, connections, or family in America with money. Most did not, regardless of which Rav/Rebbe they followed. My GGF escaped to America on his Rebbe’s advice, while it was still relatively easy to get visas… My other Elter Zeide had family in England, and from there moved on to America. It is not true that ALL of the Rabbonim said to stay, and equally untrue to think escaping was an option for everyone.

“but then in 1920-30s Sochnut centralized donations and directed them towards kibbutzim and acquiring land rather than manufacturing in Tel Aviv area – for ideological reasons. In hind side, land was important factor, of course, but the price was that manufacturing had potential of generating wealth, giving jobs to new arrivials, while kibbutzim were money pits. So, for example, German Jews were not interested in coming to a place with no job prospects until it was too late.”

The ‘Sochnut’ being part of the WZO… Of which Mizrachi were members… It gets worse. They deliberately sabotaged rescue efforts if those being rescued were the ‘wrong’ kind. ואכמ״ל וד״ל

“Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow …”

The New Yishuv, who were the ones engaged in dialog with BG, were members of government from the get go. There was pressure to keep them quiet.

“And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.”

They were already coming because their Arab neighbors were killing them post 1948… Menachem Begin got their support in 1978…

AAQ said – “Again, I do have mixed feelnigs about charedi community – indeed, great growth numbers but at the expense of changing the character of what passes as Torah:

Because our Bubbies and Zaidies centuries ago who still possessed the true Torah were using birth control… The only difference is 50% of kids were dying then from smallpox/DTP/MMR/strep=scarlet fever/etc… We learn and keep the same Torah they did.

“aggressive self-righteousness, lack of ahava towards other Jews”

Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews… BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)

“having no shame in living at someone else’s expense (and in Israel – lives)”

“Living at someone else’s expense” is only an issue if nothing is being accomplished or given in return. There are many fine Yidden, some of them very wealthy, who strongly believe that their best investment is supporting Torah. WRT Israel and the Army etc. I will write IY”H a separate post. BTW, I live here and pay taxes here, and have had missiles shot near my house here… My father-in-law served with distinction in the Golani Brigade. The armchair Zionist big talkers in America don’t trouble me…

“bite as a horse” attitudes towards anyone who learned chochma.”

I’m assuming you’re paraphrasing the “bite as a donkey” attitude towards anyone who learned Torah… Disclaimer – I am not a Litvak, I’m Chassidish. TTBOMK, the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.

“Rough generalizations, of course, but Emes is too high a price to pay for Survival”

You are arrogating to yourself the authority to define ‘Emes’ of Torah, i.e. Divine Emes… Why do you think you are qualified to do so?

“And this is nothing new in history, there were all kind of Jews at all times, but I think talmidei chachamim of previous generations policed their members better than now,”

That’s the exact same trope used in EVERY generation by those who didn’t want to listen to the Talmidei Chachamim of THEIR generation…

Always_Ask_Questions said – “One can say that adequate response was early developed by R Hirsh (and attempted before by Mendelssohn)”

What on Earth are you talking about putting Rav Hirsch zt”l in the same sentence as Mendelssohn ימח שמו וזכרו?! Mendelssohn (‘successfully’) attempted to create the PROBLEM, Rav Hirsch zt”l created one of the SOLUTIONS. Go learn history, together with the guy who wrote here that Rav Kook z”l was head of הסדר, something founded 30 years after his passing… Lakewood in the 40s-50s was also nothing like how you describe it, both in its goals and its modus operandi. What happened to Lakewood decades later is a different subject.

“At some point, we should get out of survival mode and ask the question – is Hashem looking for a nation that reads old books or a nation that reacts to the world that He sent us to.”

Well, those ‘old books’ as you call them (I do not want to descend to ad hominem insults, but using such an expression to refer to Toras Hashem is beyond the pale for anyone remotely claiming to be a believing Goy, let alone a believing Jew.) were in fact given to us by Hashem Himself, something we will be celebrating three weeks from now… The ‘world Hashem sent us to’ is a test how loyal we will be to doing Hashem’s Will, as described in those ‘old books’ and explained and applied by the Chachomim of each generation, (not the baalei batim from the peanut gallery.) This isn’t a Chiddush of mine, or of anyone else, this is spelled out already in Chumash and Navi many times. כי מנסה ה׳ אלקיכם אתכם, ואלה הגוים אשר השאיר ה׳ לנסות בהם את ישראל, etc. The only thing ‘new’ is the flavor-of-the-month of the Nisayon.

Speaking of changing ניסיונות and engaging modernity, let me ask you a question. Is Modern Orthodoxy really ‘modern’ anymore? In order to be even minimally ‘Orthodox’ one needs to acknowledge that the only Kosher ‘relationship’ is marriage between a man and a woman. One must also acknowledge that there is a clear definition of what the terms ‘man’ and ‘woman’ mean… Holding these positions is already enough to brand you a ‘far right homophobic transphobic extremist’, far from being ‘modern’ or ‘with it’. So can ‘Modern Orthodoxy’ continue to pretend not to be an oxymoron? Just ask whoever is in charge of YU… Zionism is a much more convenient issue for you to debate, because the debate is more historical and less relevant…

AAQ said – “On one hand, Aguda approach was able to isolate and save from assimilation a lot of Yidden and many had large families in several generations. Those who were more exposed to non-Jewish world have higher assimilation rates and smaller families. But notice that both EY and US leaders considered these measures as emergency (midbar, Chazon Ish, breaking ribs while doing CPR R Kotler) – and now these communities normalized this emergency method, leading to three generations of Yidden with broken ribs wandering about the desert”

You are misching together several unrelated issues, some of which have nothing to do with anything I posted. ‘Agudah approach was to isolate’ – no, actually Agudah was a political party/lobbying group. Its stance vis-a-vis Zionism was and is considered moderate. It was and remains an umbrella organization representing diverse groups (Chassidish, Litvish, German Jews in the early days, Sephardim before Shas). Being ‘isolated’ from the Goyim was the norm for most of Klal Yisroel pre-Haskalah.

The mass Kollel movement you seem to so deplore is peculiar to one particular branch of Chareidim, i.e. Litvaks, and isn’t the subject of this thread. It also didn’t start as an emergency measure, or have anything to do with preventing assimilation. When and where assimilation was an issue (pre-War Europe), there were very few people in Kollel. Lakewood didn’t begin to grow anywhere near its present size until well after the petirah of Reb Aharon Kotler, at which point American Jewry had become well established ברוחניות ובגשמיות. Why they do it the way they do is beyond the scope of this thread. (Disclaimer – I am not a Litvak, but I deeply respect כל אשר יראוך)

Chassidim typically were and are more zealous in distancing themselves from Goyish ways and influences, and typically have large families B”H, but generally did not embrace Kollel-for-everyone OR college-for-everyone. Many of them live near Lakewood/in Tom’s River… Chassidim also aren’t the subject of this thread.

“But mostly, there is a large community that focuses on self-preservation rather than Emes of Torah – and redefines what “emes” is according to their limited understanding. I don’t think this is what Hashem expects from Jews.”

WOW, that is a ‘humble’ statement. Thank you for kindly sharing with us of ‘limited understanding’, your profound השגה of ‘Emes of Torah’, based upon your presumably ‘unlimited’ understanding of what Hashem expects from Jews… Something you apparently believe you know more about than all of the Gedolim of the past 100 years who, nebbech, were busy with ‘self preservation’… Get real… I am not campaigning here for a particular Shittah or Gadol or subtype of Chareidim, חבר אני לכל אשר יראוך, but emphasis on the יראוך, and not איש הישר בעיניו יעשה.

AAQ – 1) you claim that Mizrahi affected those jews that were not affected by the non religious movements. Prob true, but it is a crime in your eyes because you are viewing any cooperation with zionists as a crime.

I specifically spelled out that I am not getting into the issue of Zionism per se, only its results in the Ruchniyus department. There are others here who take a different approach, please do not automatically assume I speak on their behalf.

2) that Mizrahi made their children non religious. This is a serious claim. Is it really true?

I did not claim that Mizrachi ITSELF made their children non-religious. It facilitated contact between virulently anti-religious people on one hand, who the secular Zionists undeniably were, and people who were basically ehrlicher Yidden who they could never reach on their own. The results of that shidduch were disastrous, if not for the first generation, then for their children.

It probably was true early on, but so was with other jews, in Palestine andin Europe. It was everywhere.

You are going back to your previous line of reasoning, that ‘everyone everywhere was going off, so why get on Mizrachi?’ To that I responded, that those Jews who joined openly secularist movements knew THEY were going OUT. Mizrachi brought the secularists IN to reach Jews who, at the time, were not interested in going OUT. BTW, if you noticed, I am actually giving Mizrachi credit for the success of Zionism as a popular movement… You might like that…

At the end, children of those who moved to EY did better than of those who stayed in Europe listening to r Wasserman and others.

No, they did not. Seeing as almost all of those children are anyway no longer alive, due to 90 or so years passing, which group is in a better matzav now? The ones who listened and (many of them) died על קידוש השם, or the ones who didn’t listen, and lived (many of them were also killed) as מחללי שבת and בעלי עברה? If you truly believe that גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו. and what Rashi said in last weeks Parsha וחי בהם לעולם הבא then your statement doesn’t make sense. BTW, most of the pre-WWII ‘Zionists’ didn’t actually move to British Palestine, and many who tried were prevented from doing so by the British. Many Chareidim attempted to go to Eretz Yisroel, even before it became obvious that war was brewing (Zionism never held a monopoly on love for the real Eretz HaKodesh…), but the Zionists controlled the limited supply of ‘certificates’ issued by the British… All of this is well documented. This leaves aside the issue of Zionist sabotage of rescue efforts during the war, a subject that was censored and suppressed in Israel for decades.

By the way, in the long run, those who listen to Gedolim have more children and grandchildren… I don’t know if anyone did a rigorous study, but I suspect that the descendants of the Chareidim who did survive the Holocaust are more numerous than the descendants of the secular and even Mizrachist settlers of that era… So who did better even בגשמיות?

The way you present history after that is somewhat colored by your opinion. Who started, who joined later…

There is a concept in Torah outlook that who starts something is indicative of what that something is all about… Zionism in general was started by people who were very far from loving the special Kedushah of Eretz Yisroel… The Rabbanut was started by people who didn’t exactly want or need real Rabbinic guidance… Mizrachi was all about FOLLOWING, and following the WRONG people.

bottom line, Mizrahi Cooperated more and had influence on what the state was doing.

Cooperating is not the same as influencing, and may be the opposite… The early leaders of the State granted many concessions to the Chareidim in order to keep them quiet… They were sure that within a decade or two they would complete their work of shmad with both the new immigrants from Sephardic countries, and even the children of the Chareidim themselves. The Ra-Banim of Mizrachi were sent to convince the Olim parents to sent their children to the ‘Yeshiva’ in Deganya… I know personally three people who experienced this (as children, their parents are no longer alive) themselves. So what ‘influence’ are you referring to? What can Mizrachi show in the רוחניות department for almost 130 years of existence?

I agree that both groups tried their best in unprecedented circumstances and had both good and bad Decisions.

I agree that there were well meaning people on both sides. (I hinted to Rav Kook z”l being of a different type than the others.), but in hindsight there is no question who was right. My main point is that Mizrachi was born mostly of דעת בעלי בתים and people doing their own thing, good intentions notwithstanding.

Even r Yochanan Ben Zakkai was not sure whether his negotiations with Romans were done correctly.

Mizrachi was more Josephus and less Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai… Actually, it is very relevant to bring up רבן יוחנן בן זכאי, because תן לי יבנה וחכמיה is the precedent for Jewish survival, not political maneuvering…