Yaakov Yosef A

Yankel Berel and Rescue, Re. ‘Common sense’

Yankel, you are very right, although it really isn’t even necessary to go as far as the Nazis ימח שמם. Just look at how clueless the US government is when dealing with other cultures and mentalities. ‘Common sense’ means one thing in the US, but something very different in Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, or Iran [each one in their own distinct way.] Putin isn’t a raving lunatic, and neither is Khamenei. Xi was never even accused of being one. That doesn’t stop them from making decisions that baffle the Western mind, and appear to Americans to be divorced from ‘common sense’. Their actions make perfect sense to themselves and to those who share their mentality and values. Even within the US, a Progressive Liberal’s idea of “common sense” is radically different from that of a “MAGA” guy. Not so long ago [like 20 years or less] there was nothing more “self understood” using “common sense” than the fact that men are men and women are women, etc… [Something the Mishnah uses as an example of a שבועת שווא because it is assur to swear for or against something self evident.] Now, saying that in the wrong place could get you “cancelled”, or even arrested [in the UK.]

What we like to call “common sense” actually contains a large scooping of “preconceived notions” and “cultural norms”, served in a “comfort zone cone” and sprinkled liberally with “confirmation bias”. Understanding this reality is the essential first step in any program of Mussar or self-awareness. By the way ‘Rescue’, the desire of most people to “be like the herd” and the desire of some people to “rebel against the herd”, are BOTH perfectly capable of tilting ones perception of reality and “common sense”.

AAQ said: “You keep harping on the “charedi” self-identification. I don’t really care.

YYA: I only went there because of you calling “no true Scotsman” on me. There is no inherent need to go there for purposes of this discussion.

AAQ: “Was Rambam charedi? I asked here before – and would he be now?”

YYA: Well, he wasn’t “RZ” because Zionism wasn’t invented yet… He wasn’t “MO”, because “Modern” [as in Enlightenment Era philosophy and worldview] wasn’t invented yet… [Islamic Aristotelianism was very different from Enlightenment, and “Rationalism” is very different from “Empiricism”. But that’s a whole different discussion.] Have you heard of Rav Meir Mazuz זצ״ל? He was Chareidi. So do the cheshbon…

AAQ: “When I started wondering whether Rambam in our times will go to Lakewood or to MIT first (nobody answered here), someone said – to Lakewood, because after MIT, he will not be admitted to Lakewood.”

YYA: He probably wouldn’t go to either of them… People make much ado about the Rambam being a “doctor”. To become a doctor 800 years ago, there was no need to go to college or medical school, and no standardized tests or mandatory residency and internship. Let alone gratuitous courses in kefirah, co-eds, and campus culture… Aside which, the Rambam sat and learned full time and was supported fully by his brother [contrary to how people misinterpret his shittah…] until his brother was killed in a shipwreck. Only then was he forced to become a ‘doctor’, which at the time was about as difficult as taking a basic vocational course at a Chareidi school…

AAQ: “Let’s say, you are a pashute kosher Jews totally disconnected from this internal football, say, a Persian or a Teimani, landing in NYC. You know what Torah is, you can read it by heart, you know Rambam and S’A … So, you listen to these two T’Ch. Do you have a way to select which one of them is the “real Torah”, or maybe you decide that both have value, and you show both a good Sephardishe respect.”

YYA: To quote both of us: “He probably wouldn’t go to either of them…” [He would] “decide that both have value, and [he would] show both a good Sephardishe respect.” That’s what most of them did. Among Sephardim who went to Ashkenazi institutes of higher Jewish learning, I believe there are more in Yeshivish places than in YU style places.

AAQ: “For example, on co-ed high schools – R Soloveitchik writes certain rationales for this. He was certainly aware of all possible objections. In fact, his first response from a shaila from NY board in 1950s was that he is not going to respond to such a provocative topic without an assurance that someone needs it.”

YYA: In simple English, the rationale boils down to one line: “If they will anyway have boyfriends/girlfriends [=כרת], better they should have Jewish boyfriends/girlfriends than Goyish ones [= being lost to כלל ישראל altogether ר״ל].” That, and only that, was what was meant by “someone needs it.” But a community that is holding in such a matzav is not a מאן דאמר to reckon with when it comes to ענייני קדושה, which is what the IDF sugya is.

AAQ said: “this is an example of LK we are discussing. In US, politicians are almost exempt from libel laws in favor of free expression. Do we have a similar exemption for Jewish public figures, whether they are tzadikkim or not?”

YYA: “Tzadikim or not” is one thing, “עמיתך or not” is something else. Bibi is not עמיתך.

AAQ: “Bava [ben Buta], in Bava Basra, is very careful not to criticize a king [Herod], presumably mostly out of fear, but maybe not also.

YYA: Whatever that was about, it wasn’t about לשון הרע. Herod was way out of the range of עמיתך by all opinions. The question there was ‘cursing’ a king, not ‘criticizing’.

AAQ: “Maybe if we ascribe good intentions to politicians, they’ll have to behave accordingly?”

YYA: Wishful thinking?

AAQ – Re. Reb Aharon and Reb Yoshe Ber זכרונם לברכה

I don’t often paraphrase ‘qwerty613’, but “Even if I don’t know what exactly ‘Chareidi’ is, I know what it isn’t.” And to paraphrase a Supreme Court justice: “I know it when I see it”.

AAQ said: “I think we got to some point here: if we have an important communal issue – can every “religious group” follow their own derech or is there a need for finding a common solution. Let’s for simplicity exclude non-religious Jews, just two groups of religious Jews – and this issue is either joining current IDF or IDF consisting of both groups of Jews.”

YYA: I.e. a חזית דתית משותפת – political (religious) union of Chareidim and RZ. No. Not happening. The last time anyone [mostly on the RZ side] seriously attempted to do that was in the 50s. The חזון איש and other Gedolim of that era categorically rejected such a possibility עד עולם. Even though the position of the Chareidim then was far weaker than it is now, and the RZ back then were closer to the Chareidim in their level of observance. Why do you keep trying to suggest shidduchim that neither side is interested in?

1. As far as Chareidim are concerned, there is no need now for a “solution”. That’s the game. If nothing happens we win.

2. The whole point of this “communal issue” is a pretext to make the Chareidim less Chareidi or not Chareidi, and thereby reverse the demographic trend. Something many if not most RZ would like to see happen. So why should the Chareidi Gedolim go for that? Makes no sense whatsoever.

3. Most RZ are not interested in letting Chareidi Gedolim tell them what to do to any extent, so they also aren’t interested in such a union.

4. The Chilonim will not exclude themselves from the equation “for simplicity”. Minor detail.

5. Most importantly, the only thing that matters is “What does Hashem want from us?” On one side of the equation you have a broad consensus of Chareidi Gedolim who are completely dedicated to Hashem and His Torah. On the other side you have people who have co-ed high schools (i.e. כרת ייהרג ואל יעבור ואכמ״ל, preparation for the IDF.) Among other מצוות ומעשים טובים. And their ‘rabbis’ are at least tacitly OK with that. Do our Gedolim need their input to determine what Hashem wants from us?!

Re. Israel becoming a “stratocracy” [= rule by military elite]

I hope not, and it certainly isn’t official. Maybe it’s a “judiciocracy” [if there is such a word.] It is becoming more and more obvious that Bibi is deliberately trying to maintain an endless state of [at least low simmer] war and fear in order to strengthen his political position. Which is a move in that direction and disturbing to say the least.

AAQ: “You read this in spy novels. The game is a little different now. Internet allows cheap access to multitudes of not very smart people.”

YYA: I don’t read spy novels… You are right that some ‘human resources’ are recruited online (including by the Mossad), but they go after people who have access to ‘something’ of value. A Chareidi yungerman is probably the dumbest choice for a spy recruiter, because he wouldn’t even be able to get access to an army base, let alone anything more sensitive. Unless this is just a ‘psyop’ campaign, which it appears to be.

AAQ Re. “Religious group”

YYA: Forgive my semantics, the emphasis was not on defining Chareidim as a different religion… My point in that post was that not every “No true Scotsman” is automatically a fallacy. There is SOMETHING that genuinely defines a “true Scotsman”, and SOMETHING that defines a “true Chareidi”. This is especially true in a religious context. A person cannot be a “true Orthodox Jew” of any sort if he doesn’t believe in Torah MiSinai that isn’t subject to change. What precisely defines one as a “true Chareidi” is an interesting discussion in itself, but SOMETHING must be a red line.

AAQ – “Population issue was (is?) part of Zionist discourse. Government would use more resources to subsidize larger families. Maybe even more than now, as now “subsidies for Nth child” is a code word for paying charedim and, thus, controversial. Would this work? I am not sure – it seems that world experience with encouraging more children by money is not working well.”

YYA: The secular establishment all but gave up hope on the population front since the Second Intifada ended their pipe dream of flooding Israel with Russian Goyim. (And scared many of those already here into emigrating.) Having kids as a Zionist ideal (among seculars) is something that went the way of the Kibbutzim, Mapa”i, punch made with raspberry cyclamate syrup, and pay phones that took ‘asimonim’…

As far as subsidies, you seem to be behind on Israeli news. That ship sailed over 20 years ago thanks to the efforts of Tommy Lapid (father of Yair). Until then Israel had relatively generous child subsidies, similar to European countries, which were slashed in the hopes of reducing the Chareidi birth rate. It didn’t work. But no one has any הוה אמינא of bringing those subsidies back.

You are very right that subsidies have never succeeded in INCREASING birth rate, such as in places like Japan and South Korea where the government is desperate to stop the population collapse. I vaguely remember a quote (maybe you know who said this?) to the effect that having and raising children is a commitment that no amount of money can pay for, and a joy no amount of money can buy.

AAQ said: “YYA> It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim – sounds like an answer Moshe gave at the sne … well, that also happened only once in history … this is a self-protective instinct to go away from others not just to Torah but even only to the Torah taught “by your Rebbeim” …

YYA: Well, if we’re together with Moshe Rabbeinu than we’re in good company… Sometimes our job is to protect ourselves, if that is what the Ribbono Shel Olam wants. The core of the debate here is determining WHAT exactly the Ribbono Shel Olam wants. If you think you know better than the Gedolim, so do what you want.

AAQ said: “it is in the gemorah whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own – who says your blood is redder. And, as with all contracts, they require agreement of both sides. If you can convince the rest of Israelis of your mailos, I’ll have no problems with that at all!”

YYA: Don’t understand what you want to say here. This isn’t “whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own”. No ‘contract’ or agreement could ever permit such a thing. What about people my age (of all religious affiliations) who anyway don’t go to the army? Are we “giving someone’s life instead of our own”? This isn’t how the dynamic works, and this isn’t how these decisions are made. The rest of the Israelis do not decide what the Torah says or what Hashem wants from us. That’s all this boils down to. If you think that you understand better than a broad consensus of Gedolei Torah what Hashem wants us to do, so be happy and do what you want. We will listen to them, not you. Nothing personal. Do you also decide for yourself on medical or legal matters, or do you ask the professionals?

AAQ said: “So, the question becomes: why don’t non-charedi Israelis value great charedi contribution in growing families, learning Torah, providing religious services to others, having great middos, inviting foreign investment, providing kiddush Hashem and kiddush medina story in international papers about great Torah lifestyle, etc? You can’t blame this on anti-religious sentiment – B’H majority of Israelis are either observant or traditional, with many others indifferent rather than anti-religious.”

YYA: You answered your own question. Many (observant, traditional, or ‘sympatish’) Israelis do value the Chareidi contribution in some of those ways. Those who don’t are mostly part of the other group who are anti-religious (or more accurately, brainwashed by the media most of the time.) There are also RZ in both of those camps. The more R in the former, the more Z (sometimes) in the latter.

The truth is that at ‘street level’, in real life, there is much less anti-Chareidi sentiment here than you would think from reading the clickbait headlines.

AAQ – This is like a debate between two people who speak two different languages. Each one’s line of reasoning makes no sense from the other’s perpective.

AAQ Re. Expelling the Chareidim

BTW, if you really hold that Chareidim should pick up and leave, and if not then they are ‘gazlanim’ or whatever, so tell that to the Israeli government (who never even suggested such nonsense), not to the Chareidim. They will have a lot of work to do:

1. Finding a country or countries willing to grant over a million Chareidim political asylum. [Start moving while Trump is still in office…]

2. Financing over a million plane tickets and hundreds of thousands of cargo shipments. [Not to mention the logistics involved, let alone the cost.]

3. Explaining to the Goyim why over a million Jews are now refugees from the ‘Jewish State’. [It has been said that this is the real reason the Chilonim never dared to do this…]

4. Establish a Left Progressive government now that the political balance has been upset in their favor.

5. Enact a One State Solution, separating religion, ethnicity, and state. Israel loses any semblance of a Jewish will to live.

6. The Arabs smell blood.

7. Rinse and repeat items 1 and 2 for the Chilonim themselves as soon as the State of Palestine is established “from the River to the Sea”.

AAQ said: “Who made “charedi” a synonym to “Torah”?

YYA: ‘Chareidi’ is a ‘demonym’ to Torah [like ‘Americans’ to ‘America’], not a ‘synonym’. The Navi Yeshayah [in the Haftarah השמים כסאי, last perek] used that term. Check the Pesukim there for the context and tell me it doesn’t sound familiar… If you know of a group of people more loyal to Torah, please tell me where they are so I can go join them…

AAQ said: “If after we went through various logical aspects of this, the final answer is based on “I am right because I am right”, then it is an indication of a weakness in the position.”

YYA: “I am right because my Rebbe is right” is an argument from authority. Something perfectly Kosher in Judaism, if not in secular philosophy and debate. Not at all the same as: “I am right because I am right”. This isn’t “weakness in the position”, this is the strength of the יצר הרע who is the source of שנאת תלמידי חכמים within כלל ישראל, as well as general antisemitism in the world at large. Both have nothing to do with logic, and their proponents give contradictory reasons for why they hate the objects of their hatred.