yankel berel

katan > … Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.

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you missed someone out here …. a realist .

a realist is not beholden to any ideological straightjacket

a realist has no preconceived notions to what the solution is meant to be

a realist’s solutions are tailor-made to …. reality

exactly the approach the torah mandates the Jew to take

torah mandates the Jew to find and execute the most fitting solution to reality as is possible

if that means the continuation of those despicable zionists – so be it …

pikuach nefesh doche et kol hatora , including any possible shavu’oth
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@AAQ

your call to restore ‘trust’ , is another sign of naivete and [sorry again] lack of comprehension of israeli mentality

remember – hard reality is the master – nothing else

first we should acknowledge reality , internalize it , and only then …. form opinions ….

israeli mentality and practice are essential part of said reality

ignore them at your own peril …
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many religious sefaradim ignored said reality during their first generations’ sojourn in EY

they mistakenly thought that reality consists of not much more than wishful thinking

they only realized their mistake when it was too late …
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with

@AAQ

There is no comparison whatsoever between the legal behaviour of the USA SC on one hand and the Israeli SC on the other.

The US SC recognizes that their power is derived from the People , the Peoples representatives and the Constitution.

The Israeli SC on the other hand, sees itself as its own source of power. It sees itself as not needing the people , nor a constitution , nor the law , as a source of power.

Rather, it sees itself sufficiently ‘enlightened’ , to tell the citizens of the Nation :

what they ought to think ,
how they ought to legislate , and
who they ought to appoint to the bench.

If you follow the news over the last 30 years, this is blatant .

The democracy index of the Economist is totally meaningless to me.

I am b’h granted by the One above with reading and thinking abilities and I don’t see any need to outsource them .

For sure not to some elitist lefty institution.

Which thrives on naive people like you [sorry] who take them seriously ….
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your suggestion re building ‘big coalitions’ is as naive as your other suggestions and not based on hard reality at all
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as you may remember – in any conflict between hard reality and wishful thinking

who wins – hands down ??
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Avi k

> Haredim served in war of independence .

correct .

that was in 1948.

but the army under the command of the woke SC , in 2025 is a totally different army ….
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Rav Elchonon wrote that RZ is avoda zara beshituf

but he meant this in a haskafic sense , not in a halachik sense.

RE would not be matir an eshet ish who got married with 2 frum edim who are RZ

nor would any posek

even the SR would not ….

somejew > The Steipler says very clearly that an otherwise frum yid does not cross the threshold of kofer in ikkarei hadaas if he makes the mistake of “aschuleh d’geila” vis-a-vis the false geila of the tziyonim. That doesn’t mean that everyone who indeed makes that foolish mistake now has a free pass to believe all types of kefira and apikorsus and can never become a rushe!

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I never said that someone who ‘makes the mistake of aschuleh d’geila’ cannot become a rushe …

following statement is equally true : I never said that someone who learns vayoel moshe can’t become a rushe
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don’t know where in the world did you see in my writing that someone “cant become” a rushe ???

hareshut netuna [mishna avot] ….. EVERYONE can become a rushe …

al ta’ami beatsmecha ad yom ….

even yochanan cohen gadol could ….

so can the vayoel moshe learner … and so can the dati le’umi yehudi …
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why is what ‘can become’, relevant at all ?

what should be relevant is : what he is !

what is he now ? is he ma’min be 13 ikarim ?

is he shomer torah ?

that’s all that matters.
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so, the steipler says – again – that

someone who IS ma’amin be’ikarim and in athalta d/g, is considered our brother al pi hahalacha

as simple as can be .
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@somejew

you said and I quote :

“the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.”

A] real full fledged zionists , shomer shabbat [and I will add here] shomrei halacha and ma’minim be 13 ikarei emuna

which I suppose is included in your description of shomrei shabat – are no longer part of klal yisroel

by sole virtue of their being ‘full fledged zionists’

thats my understanding of your words ….

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B] what do you mean by the words ‘full fledged zionists’ ?

again , my understanding here – someone who believes that the medina is athalta d/g .

he supports the medina with all his might

and thinks that this is thw way to bring mashiach

ad kan my understanding of your description of a ‘full fledged zionist’

please correct me if I am wrong in A ? in B ? or in both ?

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Supposing I am right in both A and in B , and I do understand you correctly ….

then I definitely stand by my previous post

you do contradict karyane de ‘igrata and all rabanim and dayanim in klal israel .
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am interested to hear your rejoinder .
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Where is katan ?

is he hiding ?

and why ?
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@ujm
If a country makes an agreement with a group, future governments cannot unilaterally revoke it.

Think of the American government agreements with the Native Americans (better known as Indians). The US can’t cancel it today and say they aren’t bound by the American government that agreed to it 100, 75 or 50 years ago.
[ujm]
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This BG-Agudah agreement is nothing like a treaty between nations

not in a legal sense , nor was it formulated or understood as such at the time

you have to read reality as it really is

counterproductive to defend a rightful cause with baseless claims

it is nothing more than something akin to a coalition agreement ….

and we all know

how durable , trustworthy and enforceable they are …
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@square root

can not understand you – thousands of people chvsh fall sick , an epidemic …

would you send your own kid to fall sick because others are sick already ?

where is the logic ?
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@AAQ

yankel> don’t see any connection to ‘no true scotsman’ in any of my writings …

aaq > I meant that – in this case – you seem to only consider chachamim those who agree with your opinion.

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Incorrect.

I treat both SR and r YB soloveitchik with reverence.

Both were chachamim .

Both were outliers and clearly a minority amongst the chachamim in their views.

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What I am saying , and you did not address , is the current draft .

All chachamim seeing the current draft problem with all its current realities and all its repercussions , agree not to enlist ..

aaq disagrees ….
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…. and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
[katan]

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Oh … after so much prodding …

finally did katan agree to let the cat out of the bag ….

the secret is out : the US is the mysterious esav who is going to administer EY .

the same US who withdrew from Afghanistan , Iraq and Lebanon after

many years ,
many dead ,
many wounded
many trillions of debt,

that very same US will have the appetite to tolerate another round of their middle eastern adventures ?

and successive administrations will keep the course ?

new and changing majorities in congress and senate will keep up their support ?

..
the most important question – what will the situation be when the inevitable withdrawal will happen ?

what is the situation going to be for the mothers and the children in EY ?

what is the situation going to be for the elderly in EY ?

what is the situation going to be for the fathers, the breadwinners and protectors of the family, in EY ?

what is katan suggesting ?

to have bitachon ?
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kdushat levi and r yisrael salanter both famously said that
there is no place for bitachon when someone else’s gashmiyut is at risk …

am betting that katan would not risk his own house – where he should have bitachon- in such a scenario …

whoever follows katan in this reasoning , is totally off the torah derech ….
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telling a person he is naive

and that his naivete may be dangerous

is not meant as an insult

and should not be taken that way either

you cannot keep on talking in the name of ‘the law’ to force people into the army

when ‘the law’ is being trampled on in the most brazen way by the very same people who

are supposed to be the most exemplary upholders of that very same ‘law’

and are the ones fabricating on their own new laws , non existent

and never passed formal procedures in the knesset

and clearly contradicting actual laws , passed by all legal necessary procedures

if this sounds orwellian , it is because this is plain reality obvious to all besides the willfully blind ….
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@somejew

@katan

the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.
[somejew]

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somejew clearly contradicts karyane de’igrata vol 1 …..

and contradicts worldwide accepted halachik practise in all batei hora’a

and all rabanim and dayanim

all because of some supposed obligation to fit with wrongly preconceived ideological shitah ….
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He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
[katan]

According to katan – the first PM of the medina could obligate the medina 80 years later….

that shows the tenuous grasp on reality katan possesses ….

Not only is katan deficient in the torah and its analysis …

even to plain reality staring in to your face , to which the torah is meant to be applied, he is deficient …

how can his maskana count at all ?
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@Avi k

Besides your shitot which are wrong

your facts are also wrong

R E Wasserman zatsal clearly refers to the term dati le’umi in his writings

at the end of kovets he’arot on yevamot

REW was murdered al kidush hashem in 1941 …
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@AAQ

You seem to be ignorant of the facts .

And you are not addressing my point at all.
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politicians DID create a way to stop them.

the MAJORITY of the Knesset passed many laws to stop them ,

which were immediately vetoed by the same SC effectively blocking any voter based authority on this subject

this , while they themselves are the subject of the legislation ….
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your problem is that you are so naive that

in your wildest dreams they could not do such a thing

that’s why you discount plain reality right in front of your eyes

easy to check , read about it , george orwell in action , ….. right here , right now ….

unbelievable … but true …..

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@AAQ

Reread : Previous post was not clear enough
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The SC canceled every law which they saw as touching their own authority . And that without any legal basis .

If that’s not illegal , then what is ?
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you seem to be [sorry] ok with

forming opinions without knowing fact and figures first

I rather hold of the following approach – First one gathers the facts and the figures , then one forms an opinion , accordingly.
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@katan

The only ones who would have those details would be those in political power, not ordinary commenters on this forum.
[katan]

—
Katan agrees here that he himself does not have those details …

Meaning he himself does not know which esav country would be willing to assume control of EY ….

And which esav country will be accepted by the Arabs in EY …

And still assumes that he is able to convince his readers of the practicality of his suggestion in 2025

without him self even knowing what he is suggesting ….

am wondering whether his readers should be insulted …

insulted by the apparent lack of basic intelligence katan is imputing to them ….

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AAQ is insinuating in his latest post that he would send all ten even when having clear foreknowledge that three will come back OTD …

I don’t have a problem at all with his strategy of minimizing risk

but sometimes reality is such that losses will for sure occur

and AAQ has let us know that even in a case of a certain loss of three of his children’s religion , he would still send all ten
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here is the crux of the issue , here is THE point where AAQ deviates from the unanimous haredi sages’ position.

AAQ is willing to sacrifice three of his sons’ religion

on the altar of ‘sharing burdens’ and on the altar

of the false hope of finding favor in eyes of those who disdain us

while the haredi consensus is

that our children’s religion is one of the most precious things one can have, not to be bartered for anything in the universe
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By the way , AAQ has not insinuated at all , about what he would do if he had foreknowledge that 3 of his sons would come back as cripples chv’sh , not as result of combat , but as result of internal army policy ?

From his lack of answer we could safely assume that he would not send any of his ten sons ….

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and here comes the million dollar question –

MA NISHTANA between 3 sons without religion and 3 sons without their health [both chv’sh] ???

I suspect that AAQ considers – like all other critics on this page , and all around the world for that matter …-

loss of religion, a relatively minor problem , while a lack of health a major one ….

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The difference between the Sages and their critics is this following point :
how tragic and how major is the issue of decline in yirat shamayim or the issue of OTD ?

Is it a calamity ?

or an inconvenience ?
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if you support forced haredi draft, it is an inconvenience .

if you resist haredi draft, it is a calamity.
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quite simple…..
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@avi k

@zsk
@are roster

They obviously believe that the Torah protects. Thats why they are learning whenever not protesting.
The reason why they protest is because they listen to the Sages who advised to protest.
Because the torah commanded them to listen to the Sages.
So , listening to Sages is another form of listening to the Torah , which protects.
So yes, protesting protects from the gezerat shmad which is imposed on them by your friends.
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@ujm

Come on ….

Inter – Arab violence and clear mass pikuach nefesh in all 12 instances I mentioned which happened over the last 20 years are because of the Zionists ????

Hamas throwing Arabs off high rises is because of zionists ??

They have no regard whatsoever for human life , not their own and for sure not about their perceived enemies.

This is not written as a passing of moral judgement .

This is merely an observation of reality.

A reality which cannot be wished away .

A reality which has to be dealt with .

Same with all other 12 examples of totally depraved barbarities

depicted in real life right in front of our very eyes over the last 20 years all around the Middle East .

katan and somejew remind me of the proverbial ostriches

instead of burying their heads in the sand

they turn the clock back to the 1880’s – voila , no problems at all ….. all solved …..

its all the z ‘s fault ….

as if that changes reality by a millimeter …..
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@AAQ
If you think they are violating some rules, then other parts of the system, like Knesset, should be able to override them …

Fully agreed.

They should be able to override …

You are not updated, seems like – they did override them , multiple times …

They canceled every law which they saw as touching their own authority . And that without any legal basis .

If that’s not illegal , then what is ?

you seem to be [sorry] ok with something called the ‘ostrich approach’

I rather hold of the following approach – First one gathers the facts and the figures , then one forms an opinion , accordingly.
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@non political

you are 100 % right in your observation
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the question I am repeatedly posing to AAQ , and did not merit to receive a straight answer to — yet , is

a hypothetical one

AAQ obviously does not have 10 sons eligible for the Israeli draft , and

obviously he has no foreknowledge what is going to happen to them
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but AAQ [in addition to countless others] is very quick to pass judgement on the leaders of haredi judaism

for their advice discouraging the draft.

AAQ himself , even after numerous direct and targeted prodding , declined to answer 2 simple questions
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It is safe to assume that the reason of his repeated non answer is

because he knows that any honest answer will include a negative – no , he will not send any of his sons
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in the case of three of them returning as a cripple, for sure not

and in the case of three of them returning OTD , also not.
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so AAQ himself in regard to his own children would advise them not to enlist …
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why is he critical of gdolei yisrael who advise the exact same to

their students who alpi torah are considered like their own children ?
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it is becoming clearer and clearer that criticism of non enlistment

is rooted in either a lack of care for the individual to be enlisted, or

a lack of care about the overwhelming calamity of this individual going OTD

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@ujm

the only plausible reason I can see on

why people take the issue of OTD lightly – is that they only pay lip service to this whole scare of OTD

they do not really care about it ….

so they belittle it …

no study , no this , no that …..
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