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just keep daven and 19812262 will receive some seichel min hashamayim
@aheimisher
what normative halachik practices, according to that we shouldn’t follow Mishna Brura etc.
[aheimisher to yb]
===Mishna brura is a step by step text based peirush on Sh A.
whereas VY’M and al hageoula are in depth all encompassing pseudo hlachik sfarim.
No connection between the 2.—
When Mahari bei rav wanted to mechadesh smicha , he wrote to many gdolei hador.Whenever there were thorny aguna she’elot , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.
When there was a gzerat hashchita in Germany pre WW2 , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.
When the new invention of electricity made its inroads , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.
And the list can go on and on.
—
But when
the newly created medina created manifold millions pikuach nefesh she’lot , then suddenly, one sefer without any haskamot , without any give and take , without any back and forth correspondence suffices ….
THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE NORMATIVE HALACHIK PROCESS . Nor was it.
This seems more like a tool for shaping public orthodox opinion.
.
.if there is a disgrace its the leadership of satmar
It’s ok to have a halachik agreement between torah giants, that doesn’t mean a psak is wrong
[heimisher]—
Oho.
Now we are on familiar territory.Satmar claims repeatedly that they are and represent the real Jewish viewpoint, with no valid halachik detractor.
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.
/Brisker Rav zatsal did NOT agree that everything SR wrote in his sefer is halacha
He thought that SR was doing worthwhile things in fighting against the tsunami of Z which was engulfing yehudim all over the world in those yrs.
I heard from many sources , and it is well known that BR advised frum members of knesset how to vote in the plenum. Which SR would never even dream of doing.
[aheimisher to yb]
The Brisker Rov, The Chofetz Chaim ect. agreed with this psak.
==
Come on.
Hafets Hayim was niftar already in 1933 .
VY’M was printed AFTER establishment of the medina in 1948.
.
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.What intimidation tactics, don’t throw accusations at talmidei chachomim without proof
[aheimsher to yb]===
It is well known that SR merov kana’uto whenever discussing the Z movement , he started screaming .
One cannot have a level headed , proper halachic weighing up discussion under such circumstances. I am not saying that this intimidation was pre planned.
The fact is nevertheless that said intimidation stifled proper level headed discussion of those very weighty issues.There are proper reliable sources that many gdolei yisrael did not want to discuss those topics with him , for this very reason.
Like the Imrai Emet. Tshebiner Rav ,Belzer Rav R Aron and more.
Even those rabanim who did discuss those topics with him , were clever enough to stay clear from the truly contentious issues .
==
So, did intimidation play a role in the discussions between SR and other rabanim ?
YES
.
.@aheimisher
The Rebbe Shlita deliberately didn’t have haskamos like many other great Rebbes, like the Baal HaTanya, Reb Tzaddok HaKohen, Reb Nachman of Breslov etc.
[aheimisher to yb]===========
Ba’al HaTanya, R Tsaddok , R Nachman etc did not write on halacha.
Shulch Aruch Harav was written at the express instruction of his Rebbi the Maggid.
.
.SR did not ask for haskama because he was sure he would not get one.
That is the cold reality.
.
.@aheimisher
@Yaakov YosefThree shavu’ot are not mentioned in Rambam’s Yad
Not mentioned in Tur
Not mentioned in Sh’u’AruchA clear temi’ah , a clear question.
Posed by the Heiliger Posek HaDor , the Avnei Nezer zatsal .
In his halacha lema’ase sefer Shut Avnei Nezer.
Wherefrom he paskins halacha lema’aseh that the three shavu’ot are not halacha, they are divrei hagada , hashuv in their own right, but not halacha lema’ase.
=====
So we can , relying on avnei nezer hanal
safely state thatfact is that
the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im bekamah drachim.=====
The thrust of and the intent of the SR writings and activities, were all – to blunt the hashpa’a of Z .
This was a political and social war or rather campaign which consumed a very big part of life.
He marshalled every resource available in this fight.
Even divre drush and hagada were a good resource.
.
.
===Not speaking ivrit was a tool in this fight.
Proving there is no mitsva of yishuv EY was another tool in this fight.
Blowing up the 3 shavu’ot was another one.
===
It is as clear as day that SR first decided that Z is treif and only afterwards wrote vayoel moshe and al hagueoula ….
.
.Is it common in habad to name baby girls after the rabanit of the rayats ?
As common as the other wives of the rebbes ?
Y or N ?
.
.
Honesty …..
.
.
.ujm:
The Messianic congregation Yaron Lischinsky belonged to seeks to recruit Jews to Yushke worship.This is who Israel gives visas to immigrate
===Thanks to ujm somejew and their ilk who do not participate in the Israeli elections….
The medina would have been much more jewish if all religious voters , voted.
Not voting is also voting.
It is a vote for those who seek to recruit jews to yoshke.
Same counts for WZO .
So the message to ujm :
If you complain , first do so in front of the mirror.
.
.
.Katan has not mentioned – even once – what he thinks will happen to 8 million innocents in EY.
He simply does not seem to care.
Katan will support hatsole in the US . and any other lifesaving organization.
He cares about pikuach nefesh.
But that is minused by 8 million.
8 million innocents condemned by katan to …..
.
.@aheimesher
Normative halachik practice, thousands of years old do not change, even by an unproven [or proven] estimate of 1/4 of klal yisrael.
—fact is that
there are no haskamot to vayoel moshefact is that
there is no written give and take between the mechaber and any of the other gdolei talmidei hahamim of the generation kedarka shel torah , like we find by any major deliberation in torah like by our truly great like r akiva eiger , noda beyehuda etc etcfact is that
one cannot base halaha on feelings , how righteous they may be.fact is that
the subject of STRIPPING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM THEIR PIKUACH NEFESH PROTECTIONS is an extremely weighty halachik subject .fact is that
satmar rav used intimidation tactics when arguing with other talmidei hahamim and gdolei yisrael on this subject.fact is that
the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im bekamah drachim.fact is that
It was not accepted as halaha by the overwhelming majority of gdolei talmidei hahamim in klal yisrael.fact is that
One cannot base halaha on hagada.fact is that
Avnei Nezer very clearly disagrees with vayoel moshe.fact is that
steipler very clearly disagrees with vayoel moshe.fact is that
It is mutar al pi hahalaha to exaggerate in order to stop your talmidim from associating with bad elements .
Cf hafets haim hilchot lashon hara.fact is that
despite the claims by its author , vayoel moshe was not meant to be taken literally, only leharchik et haadam min harsha’im.fact is that
satmar shitah , despite its noble origins and intentions, when taken literally , makes a caricature of our holy torah.
.
.
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.R Rivkin died as a direct result of harassment at his front door.
.
..
.Are there tshuvot from SR to other gdolei yisrael back and forth re this pivotal stripping of p/n protection of millions based only on where they live ?
Like all other weighty she’elot in halacha bemeshech all dorot of weighty rabbinnic decision making ?????
.
.
.Are there haskamot for vayo’el moshe ?
By who ?
.Is it true that rebbi / talmid disagreements are valid and can be found in gemara rishonim poskim and aharonim all thru jewish history ? Y or N ?
those who live under the zionists are more entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they see firsthand what the monsters surrounding them are up to.
But not according to somejew’s crooked ‘halacha’ according to which pikuach nefesh concerns re the eight million , do not exist …
.
.Welcome.
The Messianic congregation Yaron Lischinsky belonged to seeks to recruit Jews to Yushke worship.
This is who Israel gives visas to immigrate
===Thanks to ujm and his ilk who do not participate in the Israeli elections….
The medina would have been much more jewish if all religious voters , voted.
Not voting is also voting.
It is a vote for those who seek to recruit jews to yoshke.
Same counts for WZO .
If you complain , first do so in front of the mirror.
.
.
.the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im.
It was not accepted as halaha by the overwhelming majority of gdolei talmidei hahamim in klal yisrael.
It is not meant to be taken literally.
It is mutar al pi hahalaha to exaggerate in order to stop your talmidim from associating with bad elements .
Cf hafets haim hilchot lashon hara.====
One cannot base halaha on feelings , how righteous they may be.
Nor on hagada.
halaha is based on proven hochachot from gemara rishonim and poskim.
And has to be accepted by klal yisraels poskim and gdolei yisrael.
=====Al achat kama vekama when the subject is STRIPPING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM THEIR PIKUACH NEFESH PROTECTIONS.
Your approach to pikuach nefesh protection stripping would amount to a bad joke, if it would not be plain dangerous.
Never in the history of klal yisrael had we a mass pikuach nefesh question approached with such flippancy.
.
.
.I will repeat the truth as it is :
Katan from far off chul condemned the innocent ahenu yoshvei erets yisrael to total victimhood by barbaric monsters, just to fit his narrowminded parroted ideology.
He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael.
His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
The world of mussar and agada , and the world of halacha lema’aseh .
—We pray and hope that the RBSH’O will be chonen him some dei’a.
=========================
Katan has not mentioned – even once – what he thinks will happen to 8 million innocents in EY.
He simply does not seem to care.
Katan will support hatsole in the US . and any other lifesaving organization.
He cares about pikuach nefesh.
But that is minused by 8 million.
8 million innocents condemned by katan to …..
.
.Thank you to somejew .
At least we see the yawning chasm between those who take the SR writings literally [i.e. most of satmar nowadays]
and the rest of klal yisrael, who still have a strong sense of reality plus achrayut for the life and well being of their brothers and sisters.
.
.
.Was the wife of the rayats ‘accepted’ in habad ?
.
.Nothing to be scared off.
Truth and honesty do not bite ….
.
.Menachem the expert on habad is hereby invited to give his professional, truthful explanation of the complete story.
Would like to say “unbiased” expert, but can’t.
Menachem is not only biased in how slanted he presents the details. He is even biased in what he addresses and in what he omits.Any unpleasant , uncomfortable issue he omits.
And then he claims that it is omitted , because he happens to be ‘not in the mood’ ….. .
.
.
.But Yankels understanding of Menachem’s sidestepping tactics ….
Which question he deigns to answer and which questions he conveniently ignores …..
That is like whose understanding ?
.
.
.This is a very valid question.
Katan from far off chul condemned the innocent ahenu yoshvei erets yisrael to total victimhood by barbaric monsters, just to fit his narrowminded parroted ideology.
He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael.
His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
The world of mussar and agada , and the world of halacha lema’aseh .
—We pray and hope that the RBSH’O will be chonen him some dei’a.
I repeat :
We are talking here about pikuach nefesh of millions of innocents , which inexplicably does not feature at all in your deliberations, which i find unforgivable.
—
The following is the crux of satmar extremism –in one fell swoop , without adequate halachik deliberation whatsoever, they paskened that THERE IS NO PIKUACH NEFESH IMPERATIVE wherever the Z word is involved.
In one fell swoop they condemned eight million Jews to having no protection under our three thousand year old pikuach nefesh laws.
Babies, children , mothers , fathers , grandfathers , grandmothers.
They did not even give them a hearing , a chance to argue ,
Boom.
In one fell swoop.
No pikuach nefesh. Al pi torah – They can all die.
Their property is for the taking.
No protection.
all because of this magic Z word.
—
That is THE issue where satmar nowadays diverges from the rest of klal yisrael.They took the aggadic guidance from their first rebbe , which was designed to cut them off from the zionist movement , and adapted it to halacha lema’aseh WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AGE OLD HONORED HALACHIK practice.
With the extremely sad result of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha.
With the stroke of a pen they stripped millions of defenceless innocents from their halachik pikuach nefesh protection .
—And without even notifying them ….
.
.
.What I find very difficult , is the speech Shumer gave , explaining his support of arms embargoes against Israel during a seven front war .
He sourced inter alia Satmar shitah.
Official Satmar kept quiet about that and did not protest at the usage of their shitah to deny 8 million innocent Jews living in EY, lifesaving defensive equipment.
I cannot understand how they could do that .
.Lo ta’amod al dam rei’acha does not appear in their sifre torah ???
.
.According to menachem , the fact that his rebbi came out to particpate in the levaya of R Rivkin is a sure sign that the slain rosh yeshiva was ‘accepted’ in habad.
Q for him , hope he is ‘in the mood’ , or maybe better said ‘is he brave enough’ ….
.
.did your rebbi come out for the levaya of his mother in law , the wife of rayats ?
If yes , is that also a sure sign that she was ‘accepted’ in habad ?
.
.Was she really ‘accepted’ in habad ?
Is she mentioned in the magazine ‘derher’ [another of menachems criteria of acceptance in habad] ?
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.Is menachem honest [and brave] enough to front up ????
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.
We are waiting ….
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.before Israel was made there were shuls, yeshivos ect.
—
is that a heter to destroy the ones built since ?
.
.in every q of halacha, you must first establish what the metsiut is, afterwards research the halacha applicable to the established metsiut.
If you see the metsiut only as black and white , you miss out .
On all the shades of grey , which are a part of the metsiut.
Which invalidates any psak halacha you arrive at.
Then you sound like a chicken without a head , like katan for example.
Simple.
—
We are talking here about pikuach nefesh of millions of innocents , which inexplicably does not feature at all in your deliberations, which i find unforgivable.
,
.look in chazon ish in start of YD . think siman gimmel that tinokot shenishbu is assur to hate .
look in rambam hilchot mamrim 3:3 where he says that tinikot shenishbu is mitsva to love.
you cannot paskin nowadays on basis of avot der natan.
.
No Z caused the holocaust. This is utter drivel.
Some of them stood by while it was happening and some of them obstructed the hatzala.
Some of them did everything they could to save whatever they could.
Looks grey , right ? Not black and white .
Because that’s reality.
But none of them ’caused’ it.
.
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The difference between katan and an antisemite is marginal.Whatever the antisemite says about the Jew , katan says about the Zionist.
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.@ menachem
According to you , R Rivkin z’l was properly accepted in habad . Even after his public disagreement with your infallible rebbi.
.Accepted – like the rebbetsin of the rayats ?
Or like the eldest daughter of the rayats ?
Would you define them as ‘accepted’ in habad ?
Guessing here that menachem is ‘not in the mood’ right now ….
Am happy to hear honest assessments as response those questions .
Katan is totally off .
He is willing to accept that R A miBelz was taken and ‘fooled’ by Z propaganda … even though RAB was miles away from any connection to olam hazeh including from Z propaganda.
But he is not willing to accept that SR [and others] exaggerated about the Z in order that his followers should stay away, even though this is perfectly acceptable al pi halacha as clearly delineated in hafets haim ….
.Is it true that a habadi nowadays feels more at ease with a mehalel shabbat than with a fully frum haredi non habadi ?
I do not think safety is an issue either way.
But yiddishkait definitely is. Chinuch for children is a major factor to consider.
.
Kol hanotel etsa min hazkenim eino nichshal.
.If All other matters being equal, it is a tremendous zhut to live in Gods Palace asher enei hashem mereishit shana ad ahrit shana.
To be mekayem mitsvat yishuv haarets ….But no one should make aliyah without carefully considering how this will impact his and his families’ level of yiddishkait., including in depth discussion with one’s rav who knows his situation first hand.
Israel ranks second in the world , in the “Happpiness index”.
@menachem or any other defender of habad
Our old question keeps coming back .
Is there a source , anywhere .
From torah logic or hazal that your rebbi is infallible ????If yes , could you or any other habad supporter , provide it ?
.I heard from a belzer hasid who is ne’eman alai kevei trei that rav ahron mibelz z’l said the same thing as the [fanfiction in your language] artscroll quote from y rosenblum re where the homeless Jews after the war would/ could have gone to.
Imrai Emet writes in osef mihtavim that zhuyot for jews in EY obtained by the secular is a ‘good thing’ .
So Rosenblum’s quote of R Y Kamenetski is lav davka untrustworthy.
Part of satmar tactics in debates which I have observed over the years , is the ability of shutting out uncomfortable opinions of erliche rabanim, by
1] denying the veracity of the quote, ad kedei throwing aspersions of lying on the most dependable talmidei hahamim.
2] if no 1 is impossible , denigrating the rav quoted [himself] as not erlich.
.
.
They will resort to any of those subterfuges, as long as they do not have to admit to legitimate hilukei dei’ot between bona fide gdolei torah from both sides.
.
.@yaakov yosef
Well said.
.Message to somejew, ujm and katan :
—-
There is black . There is white.There are infinite shades of grey.
Some people see only the first two.
They are missing out.
And do not merit to see the world as it really is.
And therefore live in olam hadimyon.
And cannot understand , even if they would want – the majority of people who see the world as it really is.
.
.
Nebach.
.
.Thanks to Square.
There is black. There is white.
And there are infinite shades of grey.
Some people only see the first two.
They are missing out.
.
.Why do hahmei habad who were higi’u le’hora’a regard the last leader and rebbi of the habad hasidim as infallible ?
Is there any clear source for this ?
Or is this just a feeling ?
Or are they concerned that they would be considered as ‘traitors’ or ‘guilty of treason’ [like the late author of ashkavte devei rebbi] if they would give a voice to the possibility of him being fallible ?
Even Menachem who valiantly tries to defend all other habad issues , has kept on walking very far around this issue.
———-
Any response ??
.1] did the RY suffer redifot as a result of his inaction to support his rebbi ? Yes or No ?
2] Did the RY disagree with your rebbi in a disrespectful manner ? Yes or No ?
3] Is it true that rebbi / talmid disagreements are valid and can be found in gemara rishonim poskim and aharonim all thru jewish history ? Y or N ?
4] Can you – for honesty’s sake – snap out of your “busy/ offended/ not in the mood/blood libel [etc]” state, and finally provide ‘to the point answers’ to my questions ?
.
ujm:
We should all sing together the song that HaGaon HaRav Sholom Ber Sorotzkin shlit”a sang at his son’s chasuna a few weeks ago in Eretz Yisroel, together with the entire Yeshivas Ateres Shlomo and thousands of other attendees at the Chasuna:
<b>G-d is our King,
We are his servants
The holy Torah is our Law
We are loyal to it.
We do not recognize the Heretic Zionist Regime
Its laws do not apply to us
We walk in the ways of the Torah
In fire and water
We walk in the ways of the Torah
To Sanctify the Name of Heaven
==================================================LOL.
ujm wants us to follow rav sorotskin ….Is ujm USING rav sorotskin here , or
is he so taken by his new rebbi , rav sorotskin, that he encourages all of us to follow his new da’at torah ?This Q is easily proven ….
What will ujm say when rav sorotskin will suddenly advocate for voting for the knesset or voting in the WZO ….
Think we all know the answer …..
.
Is Shtika kehoda’a a klal to be applied here ….