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@aaq
why are you sidestepping ?
I asked you a simple question …
if a navi told you that 3 of your kids will …. no matter what you advise them
what would you do ?
what’s so hard ?
.“There isn’t much else to say about this ….”
—
That sums it up . You are not willing to consider anything which goes against your preconceived opinion ….The facts however do not stack up .
The same law you quote, gives the defense minister the authority to defer drafting .
That was valid and legal enough for fifty long years .
fifty long years after the law you quote came into effect.
this was accepted practice and fully legal for half a century !
accepted practice by all defense ministers irrespective whether haredi parties were part of the coalition or the opposition .
only overturned by, seven merets voters aka supreme court UNAUTHORISED to do so.
same with Tal law . – overturned by the same merets voters aka supreme court UNAUTHORISED to do so.
those seven merets voters claimed that the tal law is ‘unconstitutional’ –
a fancy word which is nothing more than plain baloney , as Israel has no constitution ….
seven unelected leftists acting illegally have no power whatsoever
to overturn the decisions of Israels duly elected executive and legislative branches of government
so it simply follows , those enforcing the draft are nothing more than kidnappers
and those deferring are doing so legally .
it so happens that zsk concurs with those seven unelected merets voters on this particular issue
but that does not make any of their illegal decisions any more legal …
.
It is always easier to shut down a losing debate by saying : I am not discussing this any further .one should follow facts and logic and nothing more ….
which zsk is not really doing in our case ….
.
.@zsk
you are entitled to your opinion – but that does not make the current draft any more legal ….from a strictly legal point of view – those enforcing the draft, are kidnappers and should be treated as such .
so , calling them ‘draft dodgers’ is less accurate than calling those seeking to arrest them ‘kidnappers’ …
.@aaq
sorry but you have not answered .
the question is , when faced with the absolute knowledge that those are going to be the results , no matter the advice you are giving them ,
You have 10 children – if you know, A NAVI TOLD YOU , that three of them are going to lose their religion because of their service , would you send them ?
You have 10 children – if you know A NAVI TOLD YOU , that three of them are going to lose their health and come back as cripples because of their service , would you send them ?
keep in mind that neither [religion and health] are a result of any enemy actions , both are the result of internal army structure and command
If you could honestly answer both of those two questions …. without extra commentary.
.
.the question is and still remains valid –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?
yes or no ?
and why ?
based on which halachik source ?
.Why does katan give the impression to be totally indifferent to the lot of the yehudim after his dismantlement of the state ?
.
Is that really part of his shitah ???
.
.Why are they [somejew and katan] so scared to answer ?
is it because of lack of answers ????
.
why is somejew sidestepping again ?
a clear shulhan aruch not like his claims .
why can’t he answer a simple question ?
.I don’t have access to the official printed version which habad disseminated
it is well known , however.
.katan :
Chareidim do not want to rule E”Y …
—Katan is not a spokesman for haredim .
the overwhelming majority of haredim who do participate in israeli elections , do want to rule EY ….
if they would constitute a majority , they would rule .
don’t be fooled by katans rigid adherence to a literal reading of SR writings .
his comments reflect nothing more .
.
.Where is square root ?
does he take responsibility for his vile rant ?
or is he hiding ?
.
Square root has lost his whole credibility by first shouting from all the rooftops that he is against motsi shem ra
and then himself spouting all types of baseless antisemitic accusations against many innocent hardworking people , who I personally know and recognize as such .
am betting that square himself is not ‘interested’ in building houses ‘with his bare hands’
nor is he ‘interested’ in picking fruit with his bare hands either …
am disgusted by his two facedness …..
.
.katan conveniently closes his eyes whenever something not fitting his shitah pops up …
and then claims he did not see it …
he is very nizhar in shmirat enayim ….
.katan :
The Khazar state is not a question on anything. The State existed when they were gentiles, and some of their ruling class then converted to Judaism. And their reign did not last all that long …
—
does katan realize he did not address the question at all ?katan claims the MERE EXISTENCE of a state before mashiach is kfira and yehareig ve’al yaavor ….
khazar state existed over many generations ,
so why did r yehuda halevy , when teaching the khazar king all about our belief , not at all mention this supposed hugely important ikar of judaism ?
katan seems happy to leave this [and many other] question[s] unanswered ….
and still expects us to accept his farfetched and unsubstantiated theories on the grounds of his say so ….
.
.katan :
The oaths do not apply during Temple times. That’s why.
—
why do they not apply during temple times ?=====
The oaths do not apply during Temple times. That’s why.—
and if the jews will rebuild the temple nowadays , according to your reasoning , will the oaths stop applying ?
.While I am not a zionist [like damoshe is] and I do disapprove of zionism ,
nevertheless it is clear that he can be a zionist and still not reject the torah
like steipler clearly writes in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1
.Have not heard from square root yet —-
Nu
when is Square Root going to delete his motsi shem ra ???
.katan :
Obviously, as the Chazon Ish wrote, the Zionist “independence” day should really be, if anything, a 9 Av, not a holiday.—
don’t believe chazon ish himself ever wrote that …
.Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.katan seems afraid to answer ……
wonder why ….
is it because his intuition tells him that his answer will prove to be contradictory to his make believe shitah he is trumpeting as if reflecting the torah ?
the more he avoids answering , the more it seems that is really the case ….
.nu mr somejew ??
yb: The Zionists’ tremendous weakness in logic is very clear indeed.
Since you asked:
1] specifying exactly which country will take over – the nations can figure that out
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden – this is silly; what would you do if there are threats to Jews in Zimbabwe, for example? The government there would have to deal with it. Same in the holy land, with whichever government takes over from the Zionists.
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw – zero, of course – it should be totally peaceful and bloodless, of course.
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal … – a normal and secure country unlike the Zionist paradise which is forever at war and takes billions of dollars a year to maintain that sorry state and “State”.
—-
the above are the ‘pearls’ from the one pretending to worry about the Jews .
Read his words – he takes ZERO responsibility ….
.
.
scandalous ….
.katan is scared to answer ?
.again mr some jew …
sh’a says clearly , and I am copying from your quote of shulchan aruch ….
כל העבירות שבתורה, חוץ מעבודה זרה, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, אם אומרים לו לאדם שיעבור עליהם או ייהרג,
אם הוא בצינעה – יעבור ואל ייהרג
אם הוא בפרהסיא, דהיינו בפני עשרה מישראל, חייב ליהרג ולא יעבור, אם העובד כוכבים מכוון להעבירו על דת
clear as day that all averot besides the three , he should be over the issur …
betsin’a for sure
and also befarhesya if the one who is forcing does not want to leha’avir al hadat .
so , the one coming to murder , the one which necessitates the issur , he has no intention leha’avir al hadat
the din is ya’avor
not like maharal in his agada sefer
.
not a ‘bomba kushya’ – just pashut pshat …
.
.Why is somejew refusing to answer simple questions which will clarify the shitah he is trying to ram down everyone’s throat as the only acceptable torah approach ??
why ?
is he scared ?
.think we could start to agree
aaq is refusing to answer ….
so – seems like my initial impression was correct – he is lacking in the basics of yir’at shamayim …
.
am still happy to be proven wrong here ….
.
.Nu
when is Square Root going to delete his motsi shem ra ???
.the king converted after having already been king,
SO WHAT ? IF EXISTENCE OF A STATE IS ASSUR , HE SHOULD DISSOLVE HIS KINGDOM …..
—and that kingdom anyways didn’t last,
SO WHAT ? IT LASTED FOR QUITE A FEW GENERATIONS , NO ONE CALLED ON THEM TO DISSOLVE IT
—
not that it matters since he didn’t ask any rabbi for permission to rule as a Jew; he just did so.
R YEHUDA HALEVY TEACHES THE KING AT LENGTH ALL IMPORTANT STUFF ABOUT JUDAISM …. [in his sefer hakuzari]
AND LEFT OUT SOMETHING SO IMPORTANT , WHICH RENDERS PEOPLE INTO ‘KOFRIM’ …… ???
come on …. .
.
.The Steipler is rightly quoted as claiming that the State is halachically permitted once it’s been established. I myself looked it up again .
It is there , black on white, in karyane de’igrata vol 1 .
.Hashem sent us under the persian golus even with a temple
and then He put us under the greeks under galut yavan .
why should the oaths not apply ?
we were ,clearly by Hashems decree under galut yavan .
what right did they have to rebel against that ?
.
Source please ?
.you are entitled to your opinion – but that does not make the current draft any more legal ….
from a strictly legal point of view – those enforcing the draft, are kidnappers and should be treated as such .
.@square root
when are you going to delete your vile motsi shem ra rant about haredim ?
or alternatively ,
delete your multiple posts accusing others of motsi shem ra ?
.
.When will square root take responsibility ?
.
..
… The establishment of a Jewish medinah is possible if the constitution of Torah is recognized as the basic constitution of EY, with Torah leadership governing the medinah …[moetetset gdolei hatorah – marienbad 1937]
.The following should really be posted –
Will you, moderator, please remove SQUARE from this forum.
Do we really need to hear his vile motsi shem ra rants about haredim here?
No we don’t.
.Bottom line
that remains clear : khazar state existed under the jewish religion
the second temple was built under persian rule
afterwards it stood under greek rule
why is rebelling against greek rule not against the oaths ?
.
.When I said they do teshuva , obviously , I did not mean teshuva gemura and there is no avera at all,
If that happened , then mashiach would have come .
that goes without saying.
I meant, they do teshuva and are at the same level as all other haredim are now.
—So :
the question is –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?yes or no ?
and why ?
based on which halachik source ?
.
.@aaq
it seems you prefer asking over answering ….
.I am specifically talking about pikuach nefesh here .
it is pashut in shas , poskim and shulhan aruch that besides the three hamurot, pikuach nefesh is docheh everything else .
you claim that the oaths take precedence over pikuach nefesh .
the gemara contradicts that
the poskim contradict that.
the shulhan aruch contradicts that.
.
.
I would like a direct answer please, not a sidestepping one .
.Is Square root still standing behind his vile rant ???
and is he still accusing somejew and katan of being motsi shem ra and a rodef ???
WHEN WILL SQUARE ROOT DELETE THIS DESPICABLE POST ???
.
.Square root is a total embarrassment
He should delete his vile rant , full of motsi shem ra
He complains about rodaif , while he himself is one
He seems like one big hypocrite …
.Purim 1956
three years after chazon ish’s petira
public discourse
printed and distributed
all around the world
.Nu ?
ZSK agrees ?
Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.no one suggested removing a letter from the torah
if the whole citizenry would keep all mitsvot , except for your understanding of the oaths , that is .
So the question is, again , in such a case ,
THERE IS NO AVEROT ,
besides the mere existence of the army , only as a shmira for a fully haredi citizenry ,
is THAT yeahreig veal yaavor ? yes or no ?
and why ?
what is the proof / source ?
please – no sidestepping
and , please a direct and clear answer
.that follows a pattern .
valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered
under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet
but guess what
the carpet is not big enough ….
.
.
think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
.
.I am specifically talking about pikuach nefesh here .
it is pashut in shas , poskim and shulhan aruch that besides the three hamurot, pikuach nefesh is docheh everything else .
you claim that the oaths take precedence over pikuach nefesh .
the gemara contradicts that
the poskim contradict that.
the shulhan aruch contradicts that.
.
.
I would like a direct answer please, not a sidestepping one .
.
.@aaq
sorry but you have not answered .
the question is , when faced with the absolute knowledge that those are going to be the results , no matter the advice you are giving them ,
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their religion because of their service , would you send them ?
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their health and come back as cripples because of their service , would you send them ?
keep in mind that neither [religion and health] are a result of any enemy actions , both are the result of internal army structure and command
If you could honestly answer both of those two questions …. without extra commentary.
.
..