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@somejew
…. Dismantling the Zionist state, may it happen soon, does not mean anything more that passing on control to any other self-identifying non-Jewish governance. This could be the USA, the UN, Jordan, or Hamas. I’m not intending to push my own opinions on what is preferred, I am only intending to point out the obvious reality that if the residents of Israel all wanted to give up their state, there are many relatively peaceful pathways to ….—
Absolute hogwash .
I have not heard bigger shtuyot than this comment in a long time.USA ?
How many soldiers are the US willing to sacrifice for the big ‘merit’ to govern one of the most volatile places on earth ?
I remember how one or two attacks by hezbollah got the mighty US soldiers packing from Lebanon in 1983.
—
The UN ?they were meant to guarantee the demilitarisation of Sinai after 1956. Right ?
how much resistance did they put up when threatened by Nasser ?
they folded without a shot being fired .
—
Jordan ?
how many of the 37 shuls left in the jewish quarter of the old city in 1948 were still intact when the Jews returned after 1967 ?
how many jewish residents still lived in the old city during that period ?
do you really think Jordan would be able to suppress Hamas from their stated aim to drive out every Jew who cannot prove that his ancestors lived in Palestine before 1917 ?
—
Last but least – the most spectacular of all of your stupid claimsHamas ?
you are putting the fox literally in charge of the hen house.
any further comment is totally superfluous
—
schar va’onesh is only AFTER we do all possible to avert pikuach nefesh
never heard hatsalah saying anything like your krumme svarot.
.
.you state in your post that pikuach nefesh is not docheh the so called issur of the oaths .
1] what is your source
2] why doesnt it say in hazal that there are 4 hamurot – a’z , g’a shf’d and the oaths ?
3] sh’a when mentioning the three hamurot, OMITS ANY MENTION of the oaths . why is this not proof that pikuach nefesh is not docheh the oaths ?
for the sake of honesty , you and your compatriots ujm and katan should stop quoting a so called ” universal all poskim agreement that the shavu’ot are bnding lahalacha ” .
Dismissing AVNEI NEZER who is basing himself on omission of yad hachazaka, tur and shulhan aruch , is dishonest.
.
Katan went on a holiday ?
.somejew to yb :
You push the zionist propaganda that the Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region, turning our traditional friends and supporters in the Muslim world into our enemies. I can’t know what ‘s in the hearts of those non-Jewish nations, but the words they say align with historical precedence that they only have issue with zionists, not (per se) Jews.
===
Your claims here seem to come from another planet.
Ask the Druze about the reliability of what comes out of Arab Leaders mouths.
Ask the Alawites .
Ask the Kurds.
Ask the Yazidi’s.
Ask the xtians .
The Hamas supporters in Europe claim that the jews will have to choose between the coffin and suitcase.
Thats what they say now.
And what will happen if there [for some silly technical reason] is no option of suitcase ?
And what will the average Arab do when his leader is overthrown and there is no obvious replacement ?
Who do you speak to then ?
===
The real reason you do not take any of this into account is like I wrote:
According to you the whole existence of IDF is yehareig ve’al yaavor, meaning that even if [chvsh] millions of innocents would be barbarically slaughtered , you still would close down the IDF .
So thats why you have the liberty to come up with total nonsensical non solutions .
You anyway ARE NOT CARRYING THE RESPONSIBILTY OF PIKUACH NEFESH on your shoulders .
This is crystal clear from your whole approach .
And on top of it, we heard it from your own mouth , claiming to rely on some [still] source less agadic maharal , contradicting clear poskim clearly traced back to gemara without holek , and poskim without any preconditions.
So this whole discussion , according to you, is anyway totally irrelevant !
—
Summary :
one side is attempting to have real responsible pikuach nefesh discussion based on cold reality as it is now
while
the other side has bekalut da’at dismissed the pikuach nefesh side of it and therefore comes up with clear flippant theories [supposedly based on long gone history] on which the originator himself would not dream to rely on if it would pertain to his very own little daughter’s health and wellbeing.
—
somejew has not yet answered how A fits with B …
.
.somejew to yb :
You push the zionist propaganda that the Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region, turning our traditional friends and supporters in the Muslim world into our enemies. I can’t know what ‘s in the hearts of those non-Jewish nations, but the words they say align with historical precedence that they only have issue with zionists, not (per se) Jews.
===
Your claims here seem to come from another planet.
Ask the Druze about the reliability of what comes out of Arab Leaders mouths.
Ask the Alawites .
Ask the Kurds.
Ask the Yazidi’s.
Ask the xtians .
The Hamas supporters in Europe claim that the jews will have to choose between the coffin and suitcase.
Thats what they say now.
And what will happen if there [for some silly technical reason] is no option of suitcase ?
And what will the average Arab do when his leader is overthrown and there is no obvious replacement ?
Who do you speak to then ?
===
The real reason you do not take any of this into account is like I wrote:
According to you the whole existence of IDF is yehareig ve’al yaavor, meaning that even if [chvsh] millions of innocents would be barbarically slaughtered , you still would close down the IDF .
So thats why you have the liberty to come up with total nonsensical non solutions .
You anyway ARE NOT CARRYING THE RESPONSIBILTY OF PIKUACH NEFESH on your shoulders .
This is crystal clear from your whole approach .
And on top of it, we heard it from your own mouth , claiming to rely on some [still] source less agadic maharal , contradicting clear poskim clearly traced back to gemara without holek , and poskim without any preconditions.
So this whole discussion , according to you, is anyway totally irrelevant !
—
Summary :
one side is attempting to have real responsible pikuach nefesh discussion based on cold reality as it is now
while
the other side has bekalut da’at dismissed the pikuach nefesh side of it and therefore comes up with clear flippant theories [supposedly based on long gone history] on which the originator himself would not dream to rely on if it would pertain to his very own little daughter’s health and wellbeing.
.
.examples of yb’s supposed kefira , according to somejew:
======================================================
1] You’ve construed a false binary between a Zionist state and another Holocaust …
[somejew to yb]
—That’s not kefira .
Even according to you , that somehow there exists , a realistic totally safe path for the medina to be dismantled . Even if that would have been a correct description of reality, even then.
My portrayal is at most, nothing more than a misread of the reality in front of us.Kfira, man dechar shemei !
==================================================
2] You’ve rejected the axioms of schar vonesh on it’s face in thinking that the actions of the IDF exclusively decide life and death for the millions of people living within that evil state’s borders, and not their gzar din from Rosh Hashuneh.
[somejew to yb]
—Sheker .
I never rejected s’char va’onesh in any way, shape or form.
I merely put into practise centuries old halachik practise. When dealing with a choleh and the best way of treating him , we have to establish the metsi’ut first. Same with pidyon shevuyim .
We have to decide on who the best surgeon is AL PI DERECH HATEVAH, which way of treatment is the most mutslach AL PI DERECH HATEVAH , which approach to take with the kidnapping party AL PI DERECH HATEVAH .
That is our very grave responsibilty when confronted with a pikuach nefesh choleh r’l.
And if we are light about it, flippant about it, then we are shofech damim.
One cannot ask – it is already decreed anyway from rosh hashana , so what’s the big deal which surgeon we will hire.
No , it is a big deal !
Rav Yisrael Salanter famously explained that bitachon is not warranted when another jew needs your help, for sure not bimkom pikuach nefesh.
Rather one should do EVERYTHING one can .
No contradiction whatsoever to schar va’onesh.
Or to gzera mirosh hashana.
Or to ani mamin sheboreh yitbarach shemo boreh umanhig et kol habru’im.If that is correct for one choleh , why is this not correct for millions of them ?
IDF , or any jew , or any other collective or organisation of Jews [eg hatsole shomrim] are obligated to act as if there would not be any notion of bitochon
After one does EVERYTHING POSSIBLE and there is a result , we know and believe that the result is totally min hashamayim. Here we use schar va’onesh.
And the gzera mirosh hashana.
And ani mamin sheboreh yitbarach shemo , oseh et kol hama’asim, boreh umanhig et kol habru’im.But before, when we have to act , we act AL PI DERECH HATEVAH !
Proof is in the pudding . Puk Chazi – how does hatsole act ?
Exactly the Same with pikuach nefesh in our Holy Land.Are hatsole kofrim ??? Has veshalom. But they have to act AL PI DERECH HATEVAH and
do everything humanly possible, as if it depends on them.Exactly the Same with pikuach nefesh in our Holy Land.
.
.
No kfira whatsoever in my words ..
.…. because (if well) you breached any norms of yiddishkeit and have full on entered kefira mode.
…. I can’t point out every breach of yours, nor do I think you care ….
[somejew to yb]—
Grave accusations , my dear somejew.
Grave and unfounded accusations.
Will try to go thru them , one by one and none will be left standing b’ezrH.
.
.@somejew
… nor does my allegiance mean only thing, rather the only thing that should matter is the Holy Torah we have from Sinai.
[somejew to yb]
—
Could not agree more.
.
.I just now read your post . Quickly.
I want to read it slowly. Od hazon lamo’ed.
In the meantime , the following is an old question I was not zocheh to hear an answer on :
—Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.@katan .
This is very important.
here katan broke ranks with somejew.
if we are to take katan at face value [no reason not to]
katan agrees here that pikuach nefesh supersedes any understanding of the three oaths
so [even if] organizing an army to defend the yoshvei EY would contravene the oaths , nevertheless bimkom pikuach nefesh , this is mandated
katan argues that the IDF is not a good fit, because its involvement with the three hamurot.
meaning avoda zara giluy arayot and shfihut damim.
—
the Q is now . the mere fact that the IDF is osek in those three , is that enough to stop a frum jew’s involvement in the IDF
or do we need to consider the candidate, the frum jew’s own participation in the three hamurot ?
.meaning : if the frum jew himself will not participate in the three hamurot , but other people within that army are,
is that ground to prohibit the frum jew’s participation in the IDF to save lives ?
.
.Where is somejew ?
Is he reconsidering his allegiance ?
..
@katan .
This is very important.
here katan broke ranks with somejew.
if we are to take katan at face value [no reason not to]
katan agrees here that pikuach nefesh supersedes any understanding of the three oaths
so [even if] organizing an army to defend the yoshvei EY would contravene the oaths , nevertheless bimkom pikuach nefesh , this is mandated
katan argues that the IDF is not a good fit, because its involvement with the three hamurot.
meaning avoda zara giluy arayot and shfihut damim.
—
the Q is now . the mere fact that the IDF is osek in those three , is that enough to stop a frum jew’s involvement in the IDF
or do we need to consider the candidate, the frum jew’s own participation in the three hamurot ?
.meaning : if the frum jew himself will not participate in the three hamurot , but other people within that army are,
is that ground to prohibit the frum jew’s participation in the IDF to save lives ?
.
.
.am still waiting for yr answer
Nu
Mr Katan ???
.am still waiting for yr answer
.katan permits organized self defense in galut to save lives
but he rejects IDF because it is a shmad army
accordingly , what happens to bal tshuva who is a previous member of IDF and is now called to serve
he is not impressionable as he is older now
and knows he can withstand the tests how terrible they may be
q is
should he abstain from enlisting bichlal
or should he enlist
.
.
.
.
if yes – why ?reminder
according to katan somejew and ujm
oaths are “undisputed halacha”
Are they UNDISPUTED ?????????
.
.Nu
waiting for katans real shitah ???
.@ qwerty
even if the leader of habad would miraculously reappear I would not follow him
neither should any believing yid.
there is a whole parasha in the torah addressing this phenomenon specifically
what happens when the navi sheker gives an ot or makes a mofet ?
moshe rabenu our thue and klal yisrael wide true prophet forewarned us
ki menasseh hashem etchem
HKBH is testing us
are we truly following the torah or not
so definitely , no
even if habad’s leader will pretend to duplicate j’s alleged moftim
or pretend to copy shabtai tzvi’s rumored supernatural wonders
we , the collective yidden all over the globe , spanning all our generations , both present and future
will NOT bow down and will not be duped .
==
ani maamin be’emunah sheleima … shezot hatora lo tehei muchlefet .REMINDER
the following are katan’s words
“If you are unable to run away, then you have no choice but to fight. But, of course, the preference is to run away, not to fight”
if unable to run away , there is no choice but fight [to save lives] , even if it is against the oaths !
[summary of katan’s words].
.the following is an excerpt from tunasifish
…. [the leader of the habadi’s] got very upset at people in 1960 when they wanted him to take on the leadership and he made reb avrohom hayor pick up thousands of pamphlets saying the rebbes moshiach in e”y …
meaning the leader of habad made his hasid retract claims that the leader is mashiach [claim by tunafish]
why then did the very same leader encourage and publicly validate his own mashiach claim ???
did he consider himself mashiach or not ???
if he did , why did he order the retraction of the pamphlets in the 1960’s ?
if he did not , why all the crazy [pseudo xtian] public mashiach frenzy in the 1980’s and the 1990’s ??
what is tunafish’s REAL opinion ?
.
.
.
.I promised a quote from AVNEI NEZER that oaths are not lhalacha .
Here we go :
AVNEI NEZER YD siman taf nun dalet from se’if katan mem dalet and onwards [pages 287 – 288 – 289]in more detail se’if katan nun :
‘ … and now it is good and not questionable why rambam [in his halacha sefer mishneh torah] and all poskim did not bring the oaths lahalacha , because those oaths are not lehalacha , because the person himself his body was not commanded to keep the oaths … thats why the poskim did not bring the oaths’
in short – shitat avnei nezer is that the oaths were said to the shoresh neshama , not to the guf .
so they are not obligatory lehalacha.
the guf, if it would be close to the neshama , which is close to HKBH , would instinctively follow the oaths .
and then merit special close hashgacha from HKBH.
if for whatever reason the guf does not follow the oaths , that’s a SIGN that the guf is not close and not in sync with its neshama .
therefore the guf loses its special merit for hashgacha pratit and reverses to a lesser level called hashgacha klalit.
but this is clear according to AVNEI NEZER – there is no halachik obligation whatsoever resulting from the oaths
and it is equally clear from his words
that this is the reason none of the accepted halacha sefarim mention the oaths
ad kan the summary of divrei the gdol haposkim AVNEI NEZER zatsal.
—after those words of AVNEI NEZER
it is laughable to claim that the oaths are “undisputed halacha”
.
.
.Oh .
in the other thread katan agreed that
pikuach nefesh overpowers [even his understanding of] the oaths
but now he is reverting to his old position
and he quotes a maharal
but without any address
we cannot check it
would he be so kind to give an address
..
thanks
.
.you see , I would not put in such stark language
I would not call them idolators
not because I do not see the rationale for doing so
I perfectly understand the rationale for considering them idolators
and I personally would be inclined to consider them as such
but the gdolei haposkim and gdolei harabanim did not go that far
so since I am not fooling myself as a ma’an de’amar in their presence I defer to their opinion
that does not mean that are not seriously ‘off the rocker’
I suspect that even you do not consider then idolaters with full meaning of the word
since you go there to daven with a minyan
I seem to remember that a clear idolater is not ra’uy to make up a minyan
.
.There were two entities who had a problem with the jewish mass return to EY
the vatican and lehavdil satmar
both built their worldview on the fact that most yidden are exiled from EY
and both have a problem
vatican solved it by refusing official relations with israel for half a century
but caved in since
satmar lehavdil is still holding out
because it is apparently holding that most jews do factually not reside in EY
.
.you ask for a source that oaths are not lehalacha.
I do not have the sefer wiyh me now
If not mistaken AVNEI NEZER end of YD in siman taf nun dalet [454] clearly asks why none of our pillars of halacha bring the oaths in their halacha sefarim.
and clearly says that the reason is because the oaths are not halacha.
will bln try to look it up again and give you a more exact quote.
.
.@katan .
Thanks for this clarification.
This is very important.
here katan broke ranks with somejew.
if we are to take katan at face value [no reason not to]
katan agrees here that pikuach nefesh supersedes any understanding of the three oaths
so [even if] organizing an army to defend the yoshvei EY would contravene the oaths , nevertheless bimkom pikuach nefesh , this is mandated
katan argues that the IDF is not a good fit, because its involvement with the three hamurot.
meaning avoda zara giluy arayot and shfihut damim.
—
the Q is now . the mere fact that the IDF is osek in those three , is that enough to stop a frum jew’s involvement in the IDF
or do we need to consider the candidate, the frum jew’s own participation in the three hamurot ?
.meaning : if the frum jew himself will not participate in the three hamurot , but other people within that army are,
is that ground to prohibit the frum jew’s participation in the IDF to save lives ?
.
.to the group
re hafets hayim’s opinion re Z , it might be worthwhile to go through kovets ma’amarim by his talmid muvhak where he quotes H’H extensively.
Re examination of passionately held beliefs should not be cause for a breakdown
It should be a cause for the heady feeling of freedom and maturity
a feeling of not being enslaved by previous opinions
a feeling of openness and willingness to always learn more , know more , and
grow
—sechel , like the long disappeared menachem , is most probably digesting the new information and re considering his identity
otherwise why would they be so quiet for so long
.
.Seems like somejew went missing
he did not want to answer a very simple question
how do you fit a with b
.Nu .
a to the point answer ?
when is it coming ?
.
.Somejew went on an extended holiday ?
Sounds like a joke
katan claims
“Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara”
—
We never said its non halachik because it’s in an agadeta gemara .
We – repeating Avnei Nezer here – argue its non halachik , because it’s omitted by
MISHNE TORA LEHARAMBAM
TUR LERABANU YAKOV BAL HTURIM
SHULCHAN ARUCH LEMARAN HABET YOSEF
HAMAPA LEHARAMA
MISHNEH BRURAH LEBAAL HAHAFETS HAYIM
all of them , unanimous and undisputed pillars of halacha .
How much ink has been spilt over the centuries to explain omissions in our pillars of halacha ?
This is not a coincidence , nor happenstance.
This is halacha .
—
Message to mr somejew , mr katan and mr ujmRunning away doesn’t help
A major posek , AVNEI NEZER maintains its not lehalacha
based on [amongst other proofs]
the blatant omission of the oaths from all major pillars of halacha
ignoring this , and burying your heads in the sands does not make it go away
.
.
.Still waiting for somejew’s answer ??
.
according to the gmara
a] j was busy with kishuf , which might explain the so-called wonders he allegedly performed
and that
b] j was meisit umediach et yisrael
a term which normally is used for causing and promoting avoda zara
.
.gmara does not state which avoda zara
the only avoda zara from those times we know about , is the belief and worship of j himself
so , besides j’s kishuf
and j’s promotion of self worship
according to the gmara
he would not be worthy of any punishment
possibly because he was a shomer torah in all other aspects
as is documented , if we are to believe this pupil of j , called mathew
.
.so-
was j shomer torah ?yes.
.
.@ katan
sorry but you did not answer .
will try again-
in a case of mass pikuach nefesh and
the only way out of this mass pikuach nefesh is – violating your understanding of the oaths ,
is it prohibited to violate them ?
or is it mandated to violate them ?
—
Simple and clear Qexpect a simple and clear answer
.
.Katans lie about the shavu’ot is clearly disproven by avnei nezer
.lol.
oaths undisputed halacha …
avnei nezer disputes it.
not mentioned not in yad hachazaka mishneh torah
not in tur
not in sh aruch
not in mishneh brura
pashtut in all mentioned sfarim that they are NOT lehalacha
from siman 329
thats undisputed ????
you should change your english dictionary ….
.
you are simply not answering .
the first gmara you brought is not talking about j the founder of xtianity.
yehoshua b prachya lived a good few generations earlier.
—the second gmara you brought, mentions only kishuf and meisit umadiach [promoting to serve a’z ]
not any other averot – so other mitsvot j kept.
like the quote of his pupil matew
—which a’z was j guilty of promoting ?
himself
j turned himself into a’z
eerie similarities to a certain false messiah in our times
.
that was my posthave not seen any answer from you yet …
.
.Why does somejew think that
a non attributed alleged and agadic maharal has the power to impose conditions on
an unbroken chain of undisputed pillars of halacha stretching back to clear gmara
..
in what other subject in our vast torahin what other accepted tshuvot sefer
has he seen a similar flippant approach ?
.
al achat kama vekama when the subject at hand is min hachamurot she bachamurot
the issue of mass pikuach nefesh !?!
.we are waiting …
for an honest answer ….
.
.katan to yb:
…. The other point is self-defense, to which all agree that one must defend one’s self, particularly if leaving the area of conflict is not possible. But the Zionist army is not relevant to that point, as the Zionist army is a shmad factory with all three of the gimmel chamuros, so that’s obviously a non-starter, regardless ….—-
The Q is not , whether you or me should send our kids to what you call the “shmad factory”
The Q is , whether the shmad factory , as it is , should fight , or
stop fighting
That , and that only, is the Q here.
The repercussions of the answer to that Q are crystal clear
If they stop fighting , we all know what is going to happen .
mass murder [chvsh] ….
.
So the Q I posed to you , and
you ignored it , was
whether organized self defense to save millions from mass murder
is mandated , or
prohibited ?
.
.you have not answered this very simple question ….
..
Nu Mr somejew
we are waiting for your answer
which option is preferred lefi halacha ?
.
.…. in other words , according to the above
j was a shomer torah
but in addition to his proclaimed shmirat mitsvot and professed belief in nits’hiyut hatorah , he was also
a self proclaimed navi , and
a self proclaimed messiah who promoted self worship and
performed so called ‘miracles’ with the power of the samech mem.
.does anyone see similarities ?
.
Somejew is – again – not answering
.
in a case when the only two options are
eight million jews massacred [chvsh]
or
IDF fighting
.
which one is preferable al halacha ?
and what are your clear proofs for your answer ?
.
..
.1] yehoshua b prachya lived much before the historical j we are talking about
so the j which is our subject was not the talmid discussed in that gmara
2] the second gmara mentions that j was busy with kishuf , which might explain the so-called wonders he allegedly performed
and that j was meisit umediach et yisrael
a term which normally is used for causing and promoting avoda zara
gmara does not state which avoda zara
the only avoda zara from those times we know about , is the belief and worship of j himself
so , besides j’s kishuf
and j’s promotion of self worship
he would not be worthy of any punishment
possibly because he was a shomer torah in all other aspects
if we are to believe this pupil of j , called mathew
.
.
in other words according to the abovej was a shomer torah but in addition to his proclaimed shmirat mitsvot and professed belief in nits’hiyut hatorah , he was also
a self proclaimed navi , a self proclaimed messiah who promoted self worship and performed so called ‘miracles’ with the power of the samech mem.
.
.I know firsthand of many attempts by xtians to draw on the similarities between the late rebbi of habad and their j ,
to justify and promote their own dead god
.
.should habad not take this into consideration before they embark on their roller coaster novel theological experiments
designed to inflate and overstate their own leader’s importance ???
.
.the true secret behind katan’s delusional haskafa is the following
he claims no jew will be harmed even when IDF stops fighting
which is totally delusional
and obviously so
.
.
the secret behind it is simple – katan has no skin in the gamekatan holds , and he will not deny this , like his compatriot somejew,
that when faced with a choice of sure death on one hand , and fighting and surviving on the other ,
one is OBLIGATED to die , together with his kids ,together with all his grandchildren ,
together with his neighbors , together with all residents of his street
together with all mitpallelim in his shul , together with all inhabitants in his city
together with all residents in the holy land , young and old
from sucklings to ctizens in old age homes
.
.
so think about thiswhat difference does it make whether there is or is not a viable plan to look after yoshvei EY ?
they do all ‘get on the plane’ or not
can you safely evacuate 8 million people and their possessions or not
it all is totally irrelevant anyway…
fighting as defense is out of the question anyway …
.
.
.
no wonder katan and somejew could come up with the most ridiculous ideas possibleit is clear that neither katan nor somejew have no responsibility whatsoever for the well being of yoshvei EY
they ‘ll readily admit that , they will say : the Z caused the mess so they should clean it up.
meaning – we have no responsibility for the well being of yoshvei EY
it is preferable that they die , over active self defense
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it is important to keep this in mind , when engaging with them about possible ‘alternative solutions’ for safety of yoshvei EY ….
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katan is living in lala land
the problem is that he thinks that he lives on earth
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