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YYA
I hear all of your points
but re the mitsva or not of IDF’s activities
I do not have enough factual details about each and every military action to form a specific opinion whether it is or is not a mitysva
but … and that is very important … overall … without the present existence of the IDF , the present existence of millions of our brothers is in mortal danger
close your eyes and imagine that on october 8 the IDF would be totally out of action for two weeks …
what would have happened al pi derech hateva ….
you and I , and every honest and knowledgeable person do have enough factual details to come to that conclusion
rav chaim shmuelevits came to that very same conclusion too
that ‘s why he said what he said
does that mean that zionism is correct ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that they should have established a state ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that the IDF is blameless ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that yeshiva boys should enlist ?
Chas veshalom
does that mean that the IDF is not being used as a secular melting pot ?
for sure it is a secular melting pot
.
.
are we so small minded that we cannot acknowledge the reality in front of us ??we can definitely withstand the false allure of zionism without negating clear pikuach nefesh reality
.
.
.somejew claims that somejew is ‘sincere’ …
hitler and the nazi’s —- somejews favorite nickname —-
were ‘sincere’ too ….
they ‘sincerely’ worked for the destruction of the jews
my dear somejew — ‘sincerity’ is not enough ……
we need some HUMILITY too
humility in realizing that other jewish sages have more and better understanding of the torah
humility in accepting their understanding and gaining the flexibility of changing your own thinking as a result
humility …. humility …. humility …..
.
.yes r somejew
klal yisrael with its rabbanim and tsadiqim are not zuken mamre’s
and if you find yourself at odds with them
that is a sign that you are one who is in danger of turning into a zuken mamre …
not them ….
.
..
@ somejew
you wrote that chazon ish is wrong or mistaken
you also wrote that r chaim shmulevits could be a zuken mamre for going against [your understanding of] the torah
when he says that fallen IDF soldiers are equivalent to harugei lud
which is against your understanding of the torah .
these are facts and not at all motsi shem ra
.
.
.What’s the issue that the rebbe is greater than moshe rabeinu?
It’s a clear medrash אין דור שאין בו כמשה
So the rebbe is equal and what is the big difference between equal and a bit greater????
[sechel]—
typical habad logic without any sechel
in no jewish community in the last 3000 years was their rebbi , rav , rosh yeshiva , haham or leader crowned as ‘greater than moshe rabbenou’
not in the ashkanazi mesora , not in the sfarardi mesora
not in the mitnagdic mesora , not in the hasidic mesora
not in the habad mesora , not in the other hasiduyot mesora
not the baal hatanya , not the tsemach tsedeq
not in the liadi dynasty , not in the niyezin dynasty
not in the kapust dynasty , not in the temimim yeshivot under the rashab
this happened 2000 years ago when lehavdil a jewish man falsely claimed he was conceived without an earthly father
this is totally new and
part of the false brainwash of deification
where logic , facts and mesora don’t count anymore
and ample proof to this brainwash is shown by sechels mindless rubbish posted as a pathetic excuse for the indefensible
.
.
.YYA
excellent
that was my point from the beginning
the approach of satmar to the shavu’ot is a machloket haposkim
thanks for agreeing
I never asked nor claimed that avnei nezer is the only approach
.
.I fully agree : there are many other valid reasons to counter zionism
but the shavu’ot are being – in my opinion – misused and misrepresented
and that is, besides simply megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha,
also dangerous and leads to pikuach nefesh
.
.the answer you gave from vayoel moshe only covers the gemara which limits the yehareig veal yaavor to the 3 hamurot
where seemingly SR classifies the shavu’ot under avoda zara
this still needs much thought , but that is for a different occasion
but that was not my query
my question was specifically to shulchan aruch YD 157
where shulchan aruch does not mention the shavu’ot as an avera where there is an obligation to be moser nefesh
nor does rama
nor do any of the nos’ei keilim say so
you did not address that
.
that was the question
1] zionists, especially to “religious” min, are not “fellow jews”, they are amulek, may they be peacefully uprooted from the world.
2] At shabbos tish we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.
—-
both the above quotes are from somejew
somejew encourages his kids to pray for ‘hargenen’ the zionists
and somejew also wishes for the tsionim to be ‘peacefully uprooted’
without going into the contradictions between those two wishes
he seems to be aiming those prayers and wishes, at most , if not all , non satmar minded jews in EY ….
now the question is , how wide is the difference between the prayers and wishes of somejew on this particular topic … and the prayers and wishes of the average hamas supporter on this particular topic ????
food for thought ….
..
.
.YYA
you learned vayoel moshe and al hageulah
maybe you can help
SR quotes maharal that 3 shavu’ot are applicable even if faced with pikuach nefesh
how does that jibe with SH’A YD 157 that only 3 hamurot are yehareig ve al yaavor ??
.
.somejew is in the business of giving out zuken mamre cards ….
did it ever occur to somejew that he himself might be the prime candidate ….
.
.
.you wrote that chazon ish is wrong or mistaken
you also wrote that r chaim shmulevits could be a zuken mamre for going against [your understanding of] the torah
when he says that fallen soldiers are equivalent to harugei lud
which according to your understanding is against the torah .
.so chazon ish , for disagreeing with somejew and being mistaken ….
should , using somejew’s reasoning , earn a zuken mamre card from somejew ….
.
.YYA
as far as I remember avnei nezer in end of yoreh deah quotes rashi as saying that haskamat ha umot is matir the shavu’ot
and when quoting r yenotan aibshits to the opposite , he writes ‘yibatel [r’y] va’elef kayotse bo , ve’al yibatel ot achat midivrei rashi’
quite strong language ….
.
.YYA
sefer hasidim says that someone who dies while doing a mitsva is a kadosh
for sure if he is killed because he was doing a mitsva
you rightfully approach the quote about r shlomo zalman and har herzl with a healthy dose of skepticism
but rav chaim shmulevits in his sichot mussar at the end clearly categorises fallen soldiers as harugei lud
that is black on white
.
what do you think about that ?
.
.r shlomo zalman is also quoted as bitterly condemning the zionists in the forties as having innocent yiddish blit on their hands
the quote re the cemeteries you mentioned , even if true , should still be balanced with the quote mentioned above
.
Somejews posts are plain abhorrent .
.
the cat is out of the bag
somejew has stated that his opinion re tinok shenishbah is right and chazon ish is wrong
and most importantly that he understands halacha better than the chazon ish
and therefore somejew is handing out ‘zuken mamreh’ cards
for disagreeing with somejews understanding
it seems that chazon ish is also a candidate for one of somejew’s “zuken mamre cards” ???
no wonder that somejew ‘s klal yisrael consists of very few members ….
.
.but you conveniently ‘forgot’ the other side of the coin
there are no nazi’s who would recoil at hearing denigrating comments about the jews
there are conversely a huge amount of zionists who genuinely recoil at such comments
so my original argument stands
the correct monikker is
— secular —–
not zionist
what was the kushyia on rav friedman , remind me please ?
.Somejew has zuken mamre cards which he gives out whenever gdolei hador, talmidei hahamim or rabanim explain or apply hazal
in a way which contradicts
somejews understanding of the torah
rov minyan ubinyan of erliche klal yisrael with their gdolim have siyata dishmaya to mechaven to the emet
somejew is the one who knows the ‘truth’ and accordingly excludes whoever disagrees
instead of employing some humility before those greater than him
i.e. the gdolei hador
he self appoints himself as the one who is shofet et hashoftim ….
he reeks of ga’ava ….
no wonder that in his klal yisrael there are only a few hundred members …
.
.
your post re gorens proper appellation is incomprehensible to me
the most chashuv rabbanim sign publicly that his proper appellation is without the title rav
and haleivi bichvodo uveatsmo disagrees ….
haleivi deems himself as more qualified than them to decide who is or isn’t worthy of the title rav ???
.
.@AAQ
….There are lots of cases where rabbinical opinions show up late: turns out R Landau is against demonstrations …
[aaq]
—————–
that serves as another reminder of aaq’s ignorance of basic facts in EY
most mainstream rabbanim were against demo’s
this is not news at all
starting from rav shach
rav steinman
rav elyashiv
and most hasidic rebeim
.
.
YYA
The British also had no right to speak on behalf of the Arabs, something the Arabs still resent down to today ..
—
And the arabs do have a right to speak ‘on behalf of’ the arabs ?
what exactly are the criteria for the right to speak ‘on behalf’ ?
would ottoman turkey satisfy the criteria for speaking ‘on behalf’ ?
would the roman empire satisfy the criteria of haskama shel ha’umot ?
positing that haskamat ha’umot is a matir [as per your reasoning]
is kibush milhamah a kinyan al pi torah ?
cf avnei nezer where he posits that pre revolutionary russia is the private domain of the tsar al pi torah
so why is palestine not the possession of the british empire, al pi torah ?
.
.
rav zevin is on record saying that the 1947 un vote constitutes haskamat ha umotwas it ‘theirs’ to be maskim ?
maybe . it was a mandate , after all .
not clear …
.
.@shimon kats
I heard multiple times from chashuve upstanding habadi’s that their rebbi is greater than moshe rabenu
they told me that in all sincerity
I cannot imagine anyone in the last 3000 years of jewish history saying that about his rebbi .
who else said that about their leader ?
the only person I can think of is someone who lehavdil also claimed he had no earthly father ….
they also told me that their leader is not in gan eden …..
correct me if wrong ….
YYA
Among other reasons, because we didn’t swear to THEM, but to the Ribbono Shel Olam.
—
when and where did we swear to the RBSH’O ?
.
.reminder to the reader:
what somejew claims to be ‘torah’
does not necessarily have to jibe with the real torah
somejew has selective reading glasses ….
.
.@ shimon kats
de-emphasizing fire and brimstone … does not mean that the actual criteria of the torah changed
not at all
only that the results of fire and brimstone mussar are sometimes not good anymore
and the results of the ‘loving’ type of mussar are better
cf. gemara end of sotah mentions what the kohen says to the soteh about other people transgressing
because of the superior results in getting the sotah to do teshuva , lav davka that it actually reflects reality …
—
besides the point , this reality is anyway not noge’a to us
we do not sit in bet din shel ma’ala
the only thing we should be concerned about is our yachas to those people , nothing more
the ‘rich world of chasidut’ you mention, is only applying to our yachas to those people
but not to reality which did not change
somejew made a very revealing statement just now :
I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.
—–
that gives you an accurate description of where on the map somejew is positioning himself
according to somejew there are now , probably only a few hundred , or maybe a few thousand non heretical jews on the planet
according to somejew it seems that 99 % of haredi jews are kofrim [full of heresy – in his words] ….
we should keep that at the forefront of our minds whenever we read his posts …..
.
.the shavu’oth are different to hilchot lashon hara which are mentioned in yad hachazaka as opposed to the shavu’ot
the omission of the shavu’oth from sifrei halacha is brought as a factor by an authority no less than the gaon the avnei nezer [YD 454:48-51]
he explains that the shavu’ot are ‘not lehalacha’ [his language] and
that explains the widespread omission from the accepted codifiers [again his language]
whereas there is no mention whatsoever anywhere in any posek re lashon harah being omitted …
and the issur of lashon harah ‘not being lehalacha’
.
.… Aside from the Divrei Yoel, many other Poskim held the Oaths to be very serious and very real, including Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Brisker and his son Rav Velvel, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, Rav Eliyahu Henkin …
—
you mention the chafets chayim and rav grozovsky
could you point to a specific place ?
.
.ujm is calling the channel 13 reporter a zionist
he could have called him with any other title
the title zionist is irrelevant
even if this reporter does happen to be a zionist
this is totally immaterial to his despicable comment
if he would be a secular post zionist , would he then not have made that same despicable comment ??
there are unfortunately plenty of non zionists capable of making such a comment
and plenty of zionists who recoil at hearing such a comment
the correct moniker is ‘secular’ , not zionist
—–
@shimon kats
You came in the middle of the conversation here .
I was not attempting to discuss the yachas of the aguda rabbanim to the medina per se
nor about the involvement of the haredim in knesset or the medina
I was only pointing out the contradictions within ujm’s posts
on one hand ujm maintains that goldknopf ‘s usage of nazi terms with regard to draft issue is al daat the mo’etset
with proof that the rabbanim of the mo’etset would have publicly distanced themselves from such language
and on the other hand he maintains that all rabanim , even those affiliated with aguda
agree with satmar that the medina is the me’akev of mashiach
that the medina is against the ikarei emuna
that it is prohibited even bimkom pikuach nefesh
so why — according to ujm’s thinking — did the rabanim of the mo’etset not come out in public against rym levin signature
under the declaration of independence
which supposedly is against the ikarei emuna , something which supposedly is yehareig veal yaavor ?
that was my point – nothing more …
.
.@shimon kats
I wrote that this is ‘propaganda’ because that is standard fare in hasiduyot to claim that each successor is a seamless continuation of the previous leader
yes it is more or less the same minhagim the same buildings the same nigunim etcetera
so it looks and appears the same
but when there is a change of personnel at the top
in essence the whole system changes
because the system is a mirror of the personality of the leader
and that changed ….
—-
if daitsh thought that publishing his book will help him in his supposed agenda , then he would be quite silly in my eyes …
this book did nothing for his supposed agenda
if anything , it caused him only trouble
daitsh did a great service to the world in providing many historical facts which are required knowledge when faced with habad deification mass brainwash attempts
there were differences between rayats and his second son in law
rayats did not agree to his stance re Erets Yisrael
rayats did not agree with his extensive university studies
rayats agreed to the shidduch because his second daughter was more open or ‘modern’
the mass deification programs in habad are a clear result of their late leaders deliberate policy
rayats never agreed to such a policy , nor did he ever cultivate such a thing
re bias
Chazon ish writes in emuna uvitachon [if not mistaken] based on shulchan aruch that a rav can decide even his own meat whether it is kasher or not
and is not pasul because of personal interest
he decries the convenient excuse for not following rabanim whenever they go against the layman’s opinion
that the rav decided the way he decided , because of personal interest …
—
I personally knew some of the signatories of the psak re goren
and know many people who knew the others personally
I can assure anyone
this has nothing to do with supposed zionist leanings of goren
or any political affiliations
and for sure not as a result of any newspaper articles
this is a pure halachik issue pertaining to the specific personality of goren himself
and it was on those halachik grounds that this psak was issued
I do not know of any rabbinic figure who merited such a public psak by such a variety of klal yisrael’s greatest
and the problem lies with goren personally as opposed to the signatories
any straight thinking honest person would agree with me
.
.you seem to waffle between the rabbanim being against goren or the newspapers being against him
you seem to miss something extremely basic here
the august rabbanim — those who signed on to this public psak delegitimising goren
do not have to recuse themselves because of some supposed ‘conflict of interest’
for the simple reason that there is no personal interest at all besides kvod shamayim
this is obvious to any person who is close enough to observe them on a long term basis
in your world this seems not to exist
therefore – in your world everything is personal interest
and therefore — in your world — rabbanim do follow the newspapers …. they are … followers
those rabbanim who signed — by virtue of their non personal interest,, are not followers …
they are … leaders … true leaders
thats why the public follows them
in your world the rabanim seem not to be leaders … but followers ….
which is why the public uses them … but does not follow them
—-
how many participants were there at the funerals of the signatories of this psak ???
conversely – how many participants were there at the funeral of goren ???
did his public use goren ???
or did they follow goren ???
—
I most strenuously condemn your summary
you attribute to me that zionism is ‘holy’
you could not have been more wrong
I never said that , nor did I even insinuate that.
.
.the bottom line however is the following —
according to satmar this declaration is kefira be’ikar
against all the ikarim
is yehareig ve’al yaavor
and on top of that three unhinged commenters repeatedly post
that this is accepted by ALL rabbanim
..
comes ujm and is mechadesh that shtika of the rabbanim affiliated with aguda is a hoda’a to the statements of its lay leadership
now— use ujm’s logic and voila —
we have a haskama that signing this declaration is none of the above
not kefira in the ikarim
not yehareig ve’al yaavor
not THE supposed source of all evil …..
.
there is another issue with the tefillin raised by satmar rav : guf naki
.
.Shimon katz
seem to remember that rayats had his gripes about his son in law according to shimon deuts’hs biography about the late leader of habad …
there is much more to the story than your simplistic propaganda version , ….
.
.your description of the kol loreh by the greatest rabbanim as a ‘result’ of newspaper writings is beyond the pale.
those rabbanims integrity and yirat shamayim totally precludes that from being the case
Anyone who knew those rabbanim personally could testify to the above .
I think you yourself would agree to those simple and true facts , had you merited this personal acquaintance.
goren was not a rav , not because of any newspaper article
goren was not a rav because the gedolei hador said so , unambiguously.
you would serve the cause of truth if you would state your agreement .
.
.Rav Goren is not a Rabbinic authority to the Charedi public, mainly due to the Charedi media’s blatant disrespect and slander as well as Satmar – who essentially called him the devil incarnate. But say I mentioned Rav Kook or other world-class RZ Rabbonim, would you say the same thing, that they aren’t authorities, and only Charedi Rabbonim count?
[zsk]——————————
Wrong . Sorry but wrong . Goren is not a rabbinic authority to the charedi public , not because of a supposed “Charedi media’s blatant disrespect and slander and satmers calling him the devil incarnate”.
No.
The reason why he is not a rabbinic authority is because a signed and widely publicised psak that goren is not a rav and that all his halachik decisions are invalid .
This psak was signed by rav elyashiv, rav shlomo zalman auerbach , rav yaakov yisrael kanievsky , rav shach and rav chaim shmulevits .
This psak was supported by rav moshe feinstein and rav yaakov kamenetski
I do not know any other orthodox person who merited such a public statement from such a wall to wall list of august personalities about their specific persona
rav kuk, although controversial , was admired and respected by rav elyashiv and rav auerbach
one can state unequivocally the following :
the rov minyan and the rov binyan of orthodoxy rejected goren as a rav .
.
Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State
I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).
[somejew]
————————————————-this is unsupported in judaism
.
.chiloni protests held more sway.
and worked very well …
because the judicial system , the MSM and the international left very shrewdly held their hands over them
in a blatant shmor li va’eshmor lach fashion
and are to blame for everything going wrong today.
/
correct
r levin did not view it like a RZ.
but he signed .
I disagree that his non signature would signify the retreat of the status quo
I also disagree that the RBSHO was left out of the declaration
the peshara was the inclusion of the words ‘tsur yisrael’ which the religious understood as referring to God.
the bottom line however is the following —
according to satmar this declaration is kefira be’ikar
against all the ikarim
is yehareig ve’al yaavor
and on top of that three unhinged commenters repeatedly post
that this is accepted by ALL rabbanim
..
comes ujm and is mechadesh that shtika of the rabbanim affiliated with aguda is a hoda’a to the statements of its lay leadership
now— use ujm’s logic and voila —
we have a haskama that signing this declaration is none of the above
not kefira in the ikarim
not yehareig ve’al yaavor
not THE supposed source of all evil …..
.
.Front page has a video of R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at these demonstrations. So, those who were there either did not bother asking the gadol, or went against his instructions? If so, what are their expectation – what zechus is protecting them?
[aaq]
—————————-Those AAQ’s comments reveal his ignorance of the basic facts of the israeli scene ….
.
@moshe goldwasser
the idea of the ‘veltishe’ kiruv orgs [who definitely have a different outlook than habad]
did absolutely not ‘come from’ habad !!!
this is classic false habad propaganda
used to brainwash its adherents
.
.I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded for mitsvot . that was the alternative to the 13 ikarim ….
.the pashtut in maharal is that the oaths are yehareig veal yaavor
how that fits with the klal that only the 3 hamurot are classified as such I do not know
.@ rightjew
even an authentic prophet cannot nullify a mitsvah
cf rambam end yesodei hatorah
at the most they can temporarily suspend certain mitsvot – if expressly commanded by the RBSH’O
.goren is not accepted as a rabbinical authority and his mention undermeines your post
.anyone who reads up about the nazi’s does not call them nazi’s
it only serves to cheapen the unspeakable horror of the nazi’s
it does not elevate the horror of the machti’o
think about this and you will get my point
..