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… it’s not very relevant what to expect from Arab rule in the holy land …, because nobody suggested that Arabs should rule there …
[katan]—
plain incorrect .
somejew is clearly on record , claiming repeatedly that Arabs are respected and should be trusted with government in EY.
I asked 12 realistic questions – no answer whatsoever has been forthcoming ,yet ….
katan, however , claims some ‘unnamed esav’ should be trusted to take over government
katan consistently declines to name that country , however.
it seems it’s meant to be some sort of surprise …. in the ruach of purim maybe ….
when katan will deign to specify which country is going to be trusted to shield EY’s jews from a wild and hating Arab populace
we should ask him too whether the same wild Arab populace of EY , has agreed to be governed by this ‘esav country’ ??
very important question …
maybe katan knows what we do not know ….
maybe katan knows of other Arab populations which are governed by ‘esav vountries’ ??
he should share their names with us
just in the very unlikely case that we will be met with deafening silence as an answer [or with sidestepping]
which will cause us to take this an admission that there are not any esav countries governing Arab populations on the globe
the next question will come up – why not ??
why are no Arab populations governed by any esav countries ??
.
.the only plausible reason I can see on
why people take the issue of OTD lightly – is that they only pay lip service to this whole scare of OTD
they do not really care about it ….
so they belittle it …
no study , no this , no that …..
.
.As it happens, though, there is a different example, Morocco, where even now the Jewish community still exists, with active support of their Muslim king who has restored synagogues and promoted Jewish heritage.
[katan]—
I hear your answer here.
But mr katan , what is your honest opinion ,
will EY under Arab control resemble Morrocco , a stable country for as long as we can remember, or
one of the other 12 examples of recent and present mass pikuach nefesh areas in the ME ?
considering the exagerated grievances the Arab locals are being fed with their mother’s milk for many generations
and considering the wide support hamas and islamic jihad receive in Arab society
and considering hamas’ stated policy of “the suitcase or the coffin” [H yishmor]
or their promise to duplicate October 7 again again , until there are no more jews left in palestine [H yishmor]
an honest answer mr katan – would you wager your own house on this ????
.
honesty – honesty , goes a long way ……
.
.@AAQ
the q is still very simple – in a case when it cannot be helped !
if it is impossible to rectify it, when you know for sure that this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
.A] 3 kids are coming back crippled l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.B] 3 kids are coming back without their religion l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
—
no reason to fear an honest answer …
.
@AAQ
saying something is illegal when it is illegal is not “vile” at at all
it is merely stating a legal fact
Hafets Hayim would never object to that
.@aaq
Never said their position was not a legitimate position as a private opinion within the Israeli State.
According to Israeli law they can advocate for this position , run for election , and attempt that their position should garner a majority and then pass it into law.
Totally within their rights acc to Israeli Law .
But to falsely label full time torah students as criminals , dodgers or fugitives etc , when SC’s cancellation of the Tal Law was done in an unauthorized and therefore illegal way , is beyond acceptable .
The people acting as enforcers of this illegal decision, are legally nothing more than kidnappers .
This is a plain legal issue , not a call to violence at all.
The SC cancelling Knesset’s law regulating the SC’s own authority is nothing more than one big farce. Even a ten year old sees through it.
This not “vile” ,
this is accurate.
.My imperfect understanding that politically the law was damaged by lack of results – while it proposed a path for charedim to integrate, that did not happen. That was a chance for some compromise, but I guess both sides decided to risk and press their advantage.
[aaq]
—Yes, I do agree that yours is an imperfect understanding , sorry about that.
The ONLY reason Tal law is not officially in force now – is the SC .
Nothing else.
They used non-existing authority to cancel it.
So it legally follows – that if cancellation is illegal – the law is legally still in force.
.
Simple.
.@AAQ
its a mitsva for a ben torah to be asleep at 3 am
he needs to concentrate the next day
cf. turei zahav EH 23.
.
@AAQ
Got news for you .
Majority of Knesset is of the same opinion as me .
They acted already .
They passed laws curtailing the SC’s illegal activities .
Which were illegally overturned by that very same SC.
Those illegal rulings by the SC were illegally enforced by thugs, paid by leftists , who virtually stopped everything.
And threatened to destroy the whole country if SC’s power is diminished in any way.
They were aided and abetted by the MSM and the corrupt judicial system .
So without any recourse , the Knesset was rendered practically powerless …..
Unbelievable – right ?
I couldn’t make it up …
These are the plain facts….
Follow the Israeli news , and its all there …..
.I am still [patiently…] waiting for AAQ’s wisdom ….
.Katan is too scared to answer questions
He knows that honesty will not serve him too well ….
.A few questions for katan – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
.katan will have to use his own head ….
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
—
Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
This is totally irrelevant .
What is relevant — is what we can logically expect from the Arabs in 2025 …
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the jews will suddenly be safe ???
.
..
notice to katan –
All ‘real non-Zionist posekim’ paskin halacha lema’aseh, that
the subsequent children of a grusha, divorced with a get signed by fully frum athalta digeuola believers , to be ksherim lavo bakahal .
this is pashut and also easily verifiable .
this is fully in line with steipler who unequivocally states
its assur to speak lashon hara about dati le’umi as they are not yatsa michlal amitecha …
.
.
.Brisker Rav published a KK signed by the Gerrer Rebbe and many others that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.”
—KK was referring to dati le’umi hinuch in their era and their locale.
Nothing more.
And , again, the KK was lesheim hitrachkut , not to entrust your children to them.
Not lehalacha.
.
Notice to katan .
sfarim hakdoshim write that ka’as is heresy .
Wine of a ko’es is not yayin nesech ….
.Rav Elchonon states b&w in kovetz maamarim that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
—REW z’l did not issue any halacha psak that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
Far from it.
This was a ma’amar hashkafa , and meant as mussar vehit’orerut.
Not lehalacha.
Pashut to any beginner ….
.Chazon Ish NEVER stated that dati le’umi wine is yayin nesech.
None of chazon ish devotees ever considered dati leumi touched wine as yayin nesech.
This a verifiable fact .
There are hundreds of chazon ish devotees in BB , serious talmidei hahamim .
Utter baloney.
.AAQ
the reason I employ the term ‘legally considered kidnappers’ is merely a reaction
a reaction to the tsunami of moralizing and smearing adjectives thrown in the direction of innocents
adjectives like ‘lawbreakers’ or ‘criminals’ or ‘dodgers’, which are misplaced.
full time learners , and haredim more generally, are a minority treated with disdain and derision
in a sea of powerful well-oiled secularism
not only haredim are treated with said disdain and derision –
settlers of the dati le’umi variety have the doubtful privilege to receive the same type of treatment in Israel ,
they are also a despised minority there , although the latest turn of the political wheels
made them temporarily forget their ‘special status’
the wheels in Israel turn very fast …
.@aaq
??
.AAQ
but that was not what my post was about .
my post was about the legality of the kidnappers who enforce the illegal draft
speaking in a strictly legal sense
which you did not address at all
.
AAQ
Israel is not America .
To use American tactics in Israel is naive and therefore dangerous .
You will be taken for a ride .
As experience has amply shown.
.Katan is continuing to live in lala land …
A few questions for him – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
—
Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the hated [no difference why] jews will suddenly be safe ???
.
.for the benefit of the readers –
I will correctly rephrase somejews previous post …
—
a person like @ujm who quotes the many many quotes from chazal that mention that there will be a time that Jews will suffer under a kingdom of the “erev rav”.Many many quotes from chazal that express this “erev rav” as being direct partners with the S”M and Amulek.
And now, with the rise of this non antisemitic stated called “Israel”,
a state that has tried to defend itself from so much death ,
a state based on the same ideology that has not brought us the Holocaust ,
a state that continues to send Jewish boys off to die in order to preserve the lives of its civilians ,you can find many many many rabunim and gedolim who say explicitly that the power the evil secularists within the state called “Israel” are wielding , is exactly that malchis of “erev rav” that chazal mentioned.
Why do you call a person who reiterates those Torah teachings as a “Rasha Gamur”(sic)?
.The problem is that somejew and katan are employing a literal reading to divrei drush
they are mistaking divrei drush and divrei mussar as if they were halachot psukot arrived at kedarka shel torah
they are not
hence, their ‘totally off’ maskanot …
.Edited
I merely quoted the steipler as it is written
clearly differentiating between jews for j about who there is no mitsva of ve’ahavta , on one hand and
dati leumi jews where there is a hiyuv de’oraytah of vea’havtah , on the other hand
I never advocated for believing in athalta di’ge’oula
nor have I ever claimed anything about some supposed “impossibility of becoming a rushe” …
hareshut netuna [mishna avot] is said about everyone – from somejew and katan themselves to
yours truly and any other jew.
.
and besides am not entirely sure what somejew even wants in his last post ….
..
@ square root
Thank you for your response.
Sorry , but What you wrote does not reflect reality .
You should really withdraw the rest of your writing about haredim too – not only the part about hospitals .
Most of it is demonstrably incorrect.
Wishing you and yours -like coffee – a Chativa v Chatima Tova and ask that you be Moichel to me if I have committed an avera against you
.@square
I cannot see why ujm is any more of a rasha than
someone who is clearly motsi shem ra – or even says lashon hara- about
hundreds of thousands of innocent and sincere individuals ….
.
..
@aaq
no one was ever hinting at any violence
neither is anyone using vile language
we are only reflecting on raw reality as it manifests itself
whatever I wrote is nothing more than a mirror of said reality
Israeli laws are clear cut
they totally omit any power given under any circumstance for any court to abolish any law
what SC does and did , is an absolutely illegal power grab ,
aided and abetted by an AG beholden to said SC and by
violent street protests bankrolled by overseas governments ‘aid’ money and by soros type NGO’s
.Besides – SC’s annulment of the Tal law was made under false pretenses of so called ‘equality’
blatantly obviously false , as this very same SC upholds Israeli Arabs automatic freedom from Army service
notwithstanding their full and equal legal citizenship in the state , not any less than haredim’s legal citizenship .
.
.
So – legally, full time learners deferring their service are not draft dodgersand those enforcing it – are legally , kidnappers
.
.
.this was written from a strictly legal perspective.
.@aaq
to clarify – there is no law authorizing the SC to cancel any laws passed by the knesset.
you say – there is nothing forcing the knesset to follow the SC , -that is a perfectly accurate observation.
that is besides the violent thugs , bankrolled by soros and the biden admin ,
who forcibly put the whole country to a stop
shielded by a corrupt SC, and
helped by biased media and bureaucracy
which was the only thing stopping the knesset from asserting its legal and lawful authority.
.to summarize , SC overreach, bases itself, not on Israeli law as it really should , but on plain violent street thuggery.
.
this is well known to anyone following Israeli news …
.it is obviously not a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika if the Zionists are violating the oaths. That’s silly. [katan]
—
you are misinterpreting what I said .All I am dealing with ,is not the tsidkut or otherwise of the z.
We have to deal in a cold logical halachik way without emotions ,
about the continued EXISTENCE of the state ,
not about the z campaign under the british ,
not the establishment of the state ,
not about the wars that followed.
not about what the z could or should have done,
they are all history , and irrelevant
the question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state is intertwined with the pikuach nefesh of millions
and therefore extremely weighty
this question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state vs the pikuach nefesh concerns ,
is to be solved on the basis of PRESENT REALITY in 2025.
sidestepping this reality , automatically disqualifies you from any halachic logical input to deal with this problem
that would be the same as purposely ignoring the workings of a fridge and
then in the same breath claiming that you know whether its use is permitted on shabat.
—
Since the discussion is not about ‘history’ , rather about reality.meaning the EXISTENCE of the state ,
it definitely is a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika
whether said EXISTENCE contravenes the oaths
.
..
“The only delusion I see in this discussion is Z … if the Z actually cared about Jewish lives …. [katan]
—
that’s exactly your problem . you cannot see anything beyond the rish’ut of the z .that blinds you to all reality and warps your mind to consider the present world with a century old perspective,
time to wake up, mr katan, we are now in 2025 … and have to respond to the reality in 2025 ….
..
@aaq
it seems you are determined to make it into the Guinness book of records under the subject of sidestepping …
such a simple question and you keep on refusing to answer …
what’s the big deal about answering ?
in case where advice etc. does not help – ,period.
in a cold , cost and benefit analysis , would you send all ten , or would you send none ?
.
.
.
I am [patiently…] waiting for your honors wisdom ….
.
.@aaq
unfortunately, @somejew is desperate to always misinterpret yankels comments , making believe that
yankel said his own histadlis are what saves lives and that ultimately he is in control of his own destiny.
somejew does not [want to] understand the oft repeated axiom from kadmonenu that in saving or helping others ,
there is no inyan of bitachon . one is mehuyav to approach that inyan of helping others as
if there is no inyan of bitachon on the RBSH”O , and has to be done ‘all out’.
that was all yankel said .
he merely quoted from kadmonenu
so- what follows is that , when considering helping and saving your neighbor[s] , the hiyuv hishtadlut has to be “all out ”
as the everyday example of the tsadiqim of hatsala amply demonstrate
they do not wait and shmooze , they run as fast as they can ,
even if it is a safek , even it is a sfek sfeika , even if it is a sfek sfek sfeika , even if it is a sfek sfek sfek sfek sfeika,
even on shabbat , even on yom tov , even on yom kippur
and they do not say , the result is anyway bashert , I have bitachon,
I can walk the same pace I walk to shul , or to do any other mitsva , whatever happens will happen anyway …
no hatsala member , anywhere in the world, has that approach
because of that axiom in yahadut – when you have to help or save someone else
the hiyuv is to act as if the outcome depends only on your actions
that is not kfira chv’sh , that is the proper approach al pi torah
thats all yankel has been saying from the start, and that is all yankel continues to say in to the future
somejew is ignoring that , at his own peril
.
Fyi. Steipler writes clearly, black on white, in karyane de’igreta vol 1 , that
it is assur to say lashon hara about dati leumi yehudim even if they [mistakenly] believe that the state is the forerunner of our ge’oula.
they are not ‘begeder yatsa miklal amitecha’
and are to be considered our brother in all halachik respects .
.
.
obviously they are not jews for jobviously they are not OTD when fully observant
obviously they are not ‘geshmad’
.
they are only ‘mistaken’ in one aspect , but still our brothers witha hiyuv de’oyraytah of ve’ahavtah leacha kamocha, towards them.
.
.@Square Root
You blew this one big time
“Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring and paying hospital employees.”
[square root]
—Guess you are completely unaware of Mayanei Yeshu’a Hospital in Bnei Brak. They train nurses and other hospital employees. A fully Chareidi hospital that has never gone on strike.
The Haredi Freshwater family has supported this institution.
Kudos to Dr Rothshild z’l , a fully haredi physician, who turned a dream into a reality.
..
Time has come for Square Root to apologize and delete his vile motsi shem ra …..
.
.We should thank ujm for all his quotes proving that we are not in any atchalta degeoula , rather
in a galut as a despised minority within a big and powerful majority of secularists.
as the gra z’l stated that after the galuyot under the 4 malhuyot , there will be
another a fifth galut under the erev rav within the jewish people.
which has come to pass in our days
the redifot that yeshiva bachurim and kolel men have to endure are no joking matter .
.
It is clear that tif’eret shlomo ‘s writing quoted by square root , has no connection whatsoever to
the present situation and
its extremely weighty pikuch nefesh conundrums, to be decided by the wisest of our sages.
..
@aaq
there is no source whatsoever for the court to cancel any law
a law is the expression of the sovereign , the one from where the court derives its own legitimacy
go through the lawbook and find me one …
there is no constitution in Israel , unlike other countries
so the court cannot get it from the constitution.
.without a source , they are … unauthorized !
this is simple logic, totally appropriate for any person , religious or not , ha’arets or not .
.
.a law
@aaq
just the opposite .
am not wearing any political hat at all
am writing with a purely legal hat on my head.
unauthorized decisions , overstepping their legal mandate , are legally null and void
their legal authority derives from the elected knesset only
they never received the authority to infringe on the legislative and executive branches ,
not from the knesset , and not from any other elected representative body
so using simple logic , in a strictly legal sense, their decisions are null and void , and
are to be considered as if they legally never happened
which leads us to the simple legal – not political- conclusion that those enforcing the draft are
legally to be considered ‘kidnappers’ , nothing less.
.those who are not happy with this legal arrangement have the option
to run for seats in the knesset and attempt to find a legal majority to change this
they had this option for the last 80 years in all of Israel’s elections and …
they have never changed the law
besides for the ‘tal law’ which was
again , ILLEGALLY cancelled
.@aaq
Again – sidestepping ….
the q was very simple – in a case when it cannot be helped !
it is impossible to rectify it, this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
.A] 3 kids are coming back crippled l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.B] 3 kids are coming back without their religion l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.simple q
deserves a simple answer …
.Lol.
Katan suggests that a non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , or
much more important,– the many millions of innocent women, men and children therein , while
somejew prefers the local arabs who are supposedly ‘well regarded as good, respectable caretakers of the land’ …
I am not sure whether to laugh or to cry , when reading such clear delusional propositions.
Anyone with even only rudimentary knowledge of current events and recent history
understands the massive bloody repercussions [H yishmerenu] from such irresponsible approaches
there is no ‘havtuche’ anywhere in the torah that when hefker decisions are taken in regard to pikuach nefesh
that nothing would happen to the endangered people.
this is a clear halacha she’ela .
not a hashkafa she’ela
and there is a clear halacha response , in sh’a YD 157
that pikuch nefesh is docheh any issur [besides the cardinal three] including the sfek sfek sfek sfek sfeika of the oaths’ issur
which clearly is the ONLY driver of those totally delusional propositions of somejew and katan .
.
clearer than midday sun , that , when somejew and katan would be free from
their imprisonment in the confines of the mental jail of the mistaken elevation of the oaths as one of the ikarei emuna,
they , in their wildest dreams would not even think of advocating for such dangerous ideas.
.
Using R Steinman zatsal as proof for katan’s warped shitah that
a fully observant Jew exiting the IDF,
is to be considered OTD , is plain fraudulent .
.
Over the past 50 years, the leftist self-appointed SC and the evil AG have completely rejected
every compromise solution to the Israeli Draft Crisis.Somehow that fact is NEVER MENTIONED
by radical Zionist fanatics like Square.That fact does not fit into his narrative,
so he conveniently forgets about it.
.
.@square
1] first of all — it is absolutely NOT true , —- what you wrote , is just plain ridiculous
2] second — issurei lashon hara apply when it IS true ….
who gave you a heter ?
the same God Who commanded us about motsi shem ra , commanded us about lashon hara …..
why are you getting worked up about katan’s motsi shem ra , and not about your own lashon hara ???
isn’t that hypocritical ??
two weeks before yom hadin ?
.
..
zsk states that he is of the opinion that full time learners should be drafted
but has not shown any reason why those who don’t, are acting against the law
and why those who enforce it should not be legally considered kidnappers.
..
I cannot understand why every answer of yours is again – sidestepping ….
Obvious you would test the the navi.
Obvious you would ask the navi what to do …
The q is ,again, navi tested – tick.
navi not available for advice , result of circumstances – tick.
you have to decide on your own
you know for a fact that 3 of your sons will return as a cripple
you know for a fact that 3 of your sons will return without their religion
the choice is clear – either you send all , or you send none
what would you do ?
send all ten ?
or send none ?
in both cases – the cripple case and the religion case –
please don’t avoid , not asking for more than a simple clear cut answer ….
.This signifies the collapse of somejews pretension to speak in the name of the torah
and in the name of orthodox judaism .
he is simply speaking in the name of …. himself .
.
.seems that square root is not willing to own up to his double standards ….
.Thank you to haimy for your nuanced post .
.Why is the ‘motsi shem ra’ square root , accusing other people of being ….. motsi shem ra ?
.
.