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it is clear that the yeshiva bachur when put in a forced framework like the army , experiences a yerida .
even if , and that’s not a given , if people do learn there and do daven there ,
that does not mean that they are not experiencing a yerida .
the intent of the left wing crooks who sit on the plum chairs in the court rooms and legal offices is simple
they want to remake our future educators and our future heads of households
closer to their own image
only a fool or a liar would argue against that
which in turn will guarantee the following generation
to be modified even further
even a thousand heart warming stories about mesirut nefesh on behalf of the soldiers
will not change these stark facts
this is a battle of wills
they can take away subsidies , illegally kidnap our youth , and harrass innocents on our streets
but they will never break our resolve
ki am kshei oref hu …..
.
.this is sheker vechazav
.AAQ is persisting in his naivete …..
.@AAQ
… you should also understand that the self-serving cries of Torah using non-truthful loshon is not answering the questions people have.
——-
its not self serving – its HKBH serving
its easier to blend , enlist and get a well paying job afterwards
its easier to turn into dati leumi
then to be stuck in this “black” mindset
nevertheless
they forego normal living and are happy to live bedachkut
thats not self serving – that HKBH serving
——
its not ‘questions’ which people have
its ‘terutsim’ which people have
those people cannot bear to live that way
and therefore have to find fault with the haredim
and like rav chaim brisker famously commented
“I can supply answers to questions
but I cannot supply answers to teirutsim ….. ”
.
.@AAQ
I fully concur with yaakov yosef’s post addressed to you .
.
.this gzera of forced enlistment and arrests of innocents is plainly illegal and
renders those commanding the arrests liable as kidnappers
there is no law on the books authorising those arrests
and conversely there is a law on the books regulating the deferment of torah learners
anyone believing otherwise has fallen for a fraud engineered by crooks masquerading as legal experts
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.it was rav ch ozer rav of vilna , who merited the hakarat hatov from rav dushinsky for his appointment as rav of the edah
and it was again the same rav ch ozer who r moshe blau the then rosh hakahal of the edah was continually consulting with re the steps the edah should be taking
interesting facts to consider
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.Why is ujm repeating the same canard again and again , when it is obvious from the whole context of the letter that the steipler was referring to the hevrei ha ‘eda hacharedit ???
and not at all to any neturei karta
not from then , and not from now ???
.
.if steipler was referring to them , how does that figure into the question of voting which is the sole and clear subject of the letter ???
it as clear as day that his intent was the chevrei haeda and
NOT the neturei karta as they are known to us , historical or contemporary
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.@AAQ
a psak – means halachik
which means logically and traceably sourced in shas and poskim
subject to logical counter arguments and counter proofs
.
.whereas an etsah is either intuitive,
or sourced in the more ‘murky’ part of aggadeta
or mesorah received ish mipi ish
not subject to logical counter arguments and proofs
.
..
the issur of machloket does not translate into
an issur on alternative thought , or
an issur on fact based criticism
otherwise you reduce all thinking human beings into nothing more than consenting robots
.
.
so the question of sin’at hinam is totally unconnected to our discussion
.
.galut includes :
shibud malhuyot in the form of onerous taxes specifically on the jews
shibud malhuyot as they interfere with kiyum hamitsvot
lack of malhut beit david
dispersion of the yehudim all around the world
being far from EY
lacking the avoda
lacking the tahara engendered by hakravat hakorbanot
lacking the BHMK
lacking hashra’at hashechina
the tsa’ar hashchina
physical tsarot as a result of shibud malhuyot
the immense power of the se’or sheba’issa or the yetser hara
the fact that most of the world’s inhabitants are not aware of the RBSHO and his torah
lacking the required menucha needed to delve into torah properly
lacking batei din smuchim
—
that is as far as my mind goes at this moment
all of the above is included in galut
and will be restored when mashiach will come , may it be soon in our days
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.simcha is not an evil man .
people who died to save the community in the IDF are on the level of harugei lud .
thats the written opinion of rav chaim shmulevits zatsal.
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.have not forgotten
will post bln
.zionism is not necessarily a heresy
but that is subject of another conversation we are having on another thread
where you are still waiting for my response
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.@yakov yosef
bet you that ujm will not answer ….
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.@aaq
thats not a ‘gutte shailo’ at all
this is based on a simple lack of understanding
.no one in his right mind says that re missiles and hostages, no hishtadlut is required —
what they are saying is : the ‘hishtadlut’ which is specifically requested , i.e.
enrollment of our precious and impressionable youth [who will end up being the fathers and educators of the subsequent generation] into the army
will 1] make no material positive difference in the lot of the missiles and hostages anyway
and 2] will make an enormous negative difference in the essence of our precious youth in 99.999 % of the draftees
so —
even though it is true that hishtadlut in general , is required re missiles and hostages , nevertheless
said particular hishtadlut is not required by said particular youth
so —
as a result , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is not permitted , not possible, or not required , for whatever reason —
that person should suffice with the following – rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
—
whereas in the case of stopping the immoral gzera of forced enlistment , said hishtadlut , sometimes – depending on the circumstances, is permitted
therefore as a result , again , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is permitted , or required ,
that person is obligated to do both —
also
rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
and also
put in the required hishtadlut
.
.
this is not a contradiction at alljust two age old principles of yahadut , put into practice , in two totally different circumstances
.
.
.by the way – re funding – as far as I am aware , the demonstrations are not against the funding
they are only against the illegal kidnapping of innocent people
at the behest of biased crooks masquerading as legal experts …
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.@aaq
we should not be ‘choosing’ at all …
all yehudim are precious
after all , doesnt it say ‘ma chazi dama didach sumak tfei” ?
and even the so called ‘insincere’ people are also included in the above
on the other hand , this does not make aberrations, part of judaism , either
.
.
.we should not be
re the hafets hayims postion re zionism
it is well known that aguda was established as a reaction to mizrachi and its willing affiliation and support of the zionist movement
hafets hayim was a leading founding member of aguda
the lack of open writings against zionism from hafes hayim ‘s side , should be attributed to tactical reasons , not to strategy
.
.@AAQ
there is no written tshuva from him re the issue you mention .
there are reports of an oral one .
that was not a psak as such , as far as I understand
that was an etsa , an advice ,
by the way , from a klal yisrael perspective , with the benefit of hindsight , it was sound advice …
.
.clear from the steiplers letter that he is referring to edah hacharedit , and
not to participants in holocaust denying conferences , nor to participants in PLO demonstrations in the 1970’s
.
.
.your last post got me to laugh
the unsavory tactics of demonstrating together with people whose hands are stained with Jewish blood
and participating in Iranian holocaust denying conferences
are considered unsavory by 99.9 % of orthodox jews
ranging across the whole spectrum , from satmar to mizrachi
from talmidei hahamim gedolim umuflagim to amharatsim gemurim
this [by the way correct] view is held by all of the above , long before my words were posted
and will stay the same after your defense of their underhanded tactics will be long forgotten already
it is not motsi shem ra , nor is it lashon hara
this is pashut to anyone who is part of the 99.9 %
.
.
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.it seems like there are two different qwerty’s on this thread ??
.I was referring to actions – not to ideology
the actions of demonstrating together with people stained by Jewish blood is UNSAVORY .
Yes .
Definitely .
whether they are of the same ideology or not, is totally immaterial .
.
.@aaq
you are right
the problem is getting bigger and bigger as the years go by
the only way this can be handled is by voicing our concerns every time it comes up .
.
.@aaq
WW2 started september 1939 with germany and then soviet russia attacking poland
mir , in eastern poland was conquered by the soviets
the yeshiva fled mir which was under soviet occupation towards vilna in october 1939 after receiving a clear psak [!] from rav ch’o that they should even be mehalel shabat to do so
rch’o took the initiative to send telegrams to the yeshivot under soviet occupation at the time
vilna was also under soviet occupation at the time
but r’ch’o was told that vilna would be handed over to the then still free and neutral Lithuanian government
which actually happened a few weeks after the yeshivot arrived in vilna
the question of yeshivat mir fleeing from vilna to the far east came up later , after the soviet occupation of free lithuania in the summer of 1940
that was during the period lithuania was occupied by the soviets for the period around one year between the soviet invasion during the summer 1940 and the nazi invasion during june 1941
during that year the yeshiva was grappling with the question about applying to the soviets for exit visas
and that was after r’ch’o was niftar already
at no point was there any ‘psak’ from anyone either way , re the advisability of filing requests to exit the communist ‘paradise’ .
.as an aside –
on the domestic scene —
the religious in Israel are innocent victims of … prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts
—
and ironically …. on the international scene —-
exactly the same :
Israel is the innocent victim of …. prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts
midah keneged midah , hashgacha peratit ……
.
.as an aside –
on the domestic scene —
the religious in Israel are innocent victims of … prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts
—
and ironically …. on the international scene —-
exactly the same :
Israel is the innocent victim of …. prejudiced lawfare by biased crooks masquerading as judges and legal experts
midah keneged midah , hashgacha peratit ……
.
.read the steiplers letter in its entirety and tell me, honestly :
the words ‘neturei karta’ , refer to the edah people or the ones who demonstrated together with the PLO ?
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.@AAQ
the very future of our nation is under threat
this is no joking matter at all
this illegal and immoral decree has to be resisted by all [peaceful] means possible without letup until complete victory
.
.I am also confused
why are hazals definitions of galut not good ‘working definitions’ ?
I did not post “random musings” …
I posted hazal’s definitions of galut
why are hazal’s definitions not ‘commonly agreed foundations’ ?
I am not disagreeing perse with anything you wrote
just that it is hollow ,incomplete and therefore misleading , to define a concept by only one characteristic …
all explanations by hazal are relevant …
.
.
or not ?
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.@AAQ
your naivete is shining through again …
to quote such a groundbreaking sefer ha ikarim from a ‘secondary source’ without verifying that it actually does say such a huge hidush in an unambiguous way , is plain naive ….
this is not meant as a mean comment …
.
how many times are people going to fall for the same untruth ?
steipler is NOT referring to the neturei karta as we are
thats clear to any careful reader
he is addressing the issue of VOTING ONLY
he uses the term neturei karta to describe the hevrei ha’eida
thats all
there is no reference whatsoever to any of the unsavory tactics of those neturei karta as they are known
.
.this is a milhemet mitsva – not to agree to forced enlistment
and we cannot back down .
ish et re’ehu yazoru ule’achiv yomar chazak !
et l’asot lashem !
.
.I do not understand .
which part of my post re galut is inaccurate ?
and why cant we work with what I wrote ?
.
.@yaakov yosef
I am not serious ….
I cannot stand ideological straightjackets .
posters like katan and somejew from one side and posters like evalemoshiv and square on the other side
all have their agendas and they push them irrespective of the real world realities and the inevitable consequences their so called solutions will engender
they are doing so blindly and therefore are dangerous
baruch hashem we still have special people amongst us gdolei yisrael who can help us navigate these very difficult issues.
.
.maybe I mentioned this once already – habad theology reminds me of climate change and chinese influence
all three advance unseen until they suddenly dominate the world …
.
.anything I wrote is derived from hazal and sefarim kdoshim
I did not make anything up and I cannot see any reason why you should reject anything I mentioned
if you have a reason as to what and why you find anything objectionable please state what it is and why
in the absence of the above I cannot see why we cannot work with all these aspects of galut I mentioned ?
.
.Avi k
you are mixing issues
RMF halachically [!] disagreed with those who assered giving back land even bimkom pikuach nefesh . nothing to do with the principle of datt torah
there was no ‘psak’ by r ch’o about shanghai at any time
by the way rch’o was niftar just weeks after the soviets marched into vilna
before the yeshiva moved from lithuania
daat torah was never invented
it exists only to the extent that there are sources in the torah supporting it
and cannot be an invention if thereare sources for it
.
.so am trying again :
my mistake of peshat in my learning is kefira be’ikar ?
beit shamai according to beit hillel is kefira be’ikar ?
???
The point is that Lubavichers face the same problem. I’m sure that many recognize the issues that we’ve brought to the fore, but they feel that they can’t say or do anything or they’ll face ostracism.
—
that’s an overly rosy view in my opinion …
the lubavichers are hamstrung ,but not because of the fear of ostracism
it is because they cannot accept , under any circumstance , that their rebbi should be mistaken , anytime , on any topic whatsoever
and it is that irrational belief which is the foundation and the singular source of their continuous conundrum
on all of their so called ‘issues’ which are brought up , they are able to point to utterances or writings of their “infallible” rebbi which are a valid source for their mistaken and problematic belief
even though that their rebbi himself is not able to point to any preceding source to validate his opinion
the very minute that a habadi is willing to accept the possibility that his leader , even while being great man , erred , is the very minute of his salvation
otherwise we will continue to go round and round in the same merry go round without any solution whatsoever
.
.
.Ok –I read somejews last post now , will redefine my post now and use his terminology
to summarize the above conversation , according to the staipler :
belief in trinity is —kfira be’ikar
belief in reform is —kfira be’ikar
.
.shitat beit shmai according to beit hillel is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikarwhen I learn a gemara and learn the wrong peshat it is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikarbelief in athaltah di geoula is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikar.
.
.OPEN LETTER TO EVALEMOSHIVLO
I would like to make a suggestion based on RAMBAM . Yes, I am suggesting preparing Orthodox Israeli Jewry for mass Yeridah, and I even have a plan.
Send a delegation for a series of meetings with Government Ministers. (Yes non Jewish Ministers)
Say to them, we are preparing our communities for mass Yeridah.
We want our communities and their families to be able to live near one another and to retain our culture, our educational system etc. We need proper and adequate employment and social services. We need shuls, schools, yeshivos, seminaries, etc.
It can be done. There are large empty expanses of land – in Chuts la’arets .
Yeridah has many challenges but when done together, it’s a whole different story.
I know that I’ll be hit in the face with all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put, but times have changed.
Our precious youth in Israel are hunted by a mafia-like unelected clique , like some sort of criminals.
This is totally unacceptable and unsustainable .
We cannot foresee the results of this unprecedented and evil witch hunt .
WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!
We MUST seriously consider mass yeridah , for the sake of the Jewish Nation’s eternal future !
.
.
.as continuation of previous post
there is more than one type / level of galut
there is the galut of being far from EY
there is the galut of lacking a BHMK
there is the galut of lacking the shehina
there is the galut of physical tsarot as a result of shibud malhuyot to varying degrees , different in various locales and times
there is the galut as manifested as power of the se’or sheba’issa which seems to hold the world in its clutches
there are so many aspects and levels of this overarching word galut that it is very difficult to encapsulate it in one or 2 words
the truth is that it is all of the above and probably even more
.
.
hope we agree on this and previous post ….
.
.re galut
gemara baba batra 8A [if remember correctly] says that limud hatorah if on high level will bring mashiach
if on lower level will reduce shibud malhuyot in the form of easier taxes on the jews
and if on even lower level then the taxes of the shibud malhuyot will be crushing
we see that there are different levels of shibud malhuyot
the jew in the present USA is in galut
the jew under the czar in the 1800’s was also in galut
but lo harei zeh keharei zeh ….
.
.bottom line
wrong pshat in gemara
an everyday occurrence by many people … is definitely NOT kfira ……
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.@aaq
where is sefer ikarim ‘lenient’ about mistakes in core beliefs ?
.
.@AAQ
this comes from talmidei rav chaim ozer
.
.
btw – I myself heard from a witness who saw emrei emet talking to REW for over two hours in marienbad in 1937those who knew emrei emet , say that this was almost unheard of that he should spend so much time with someone
REW was an adam gadol me’od .
.
.@avi k
that tour was when rav kook was still rav of jafo
before he moved to the newly established rabanut rashit
.if not mistaken rav sonnefeld called him by the title of ‘the yafo rav’ even when he was already rav rashi in yerusalem
.every fact has to placed and considered within its context
otherwise the wrong impression is given
.