yankel berel

@rescue

??
.

@rescue

heard that the famous kdushat levi once remarked … why did God create crooked logic ? What is the point ?

whereupon he answered that crooked logic was created to be used for melamed zhut on the yehudim

think of that famous quote from this famous melamed zhut , whenever I hear crooked logic being used to be melamed chov ….
.
.

@yya

was referring to another heter — not apei tlata …
.

I seem to remember that there is no issur lashon hara on something which is anyway clear public knowledge

thats not referring to the ‘heter’ of apei tlata

might be wrong here …
.
.
.

@somejew
A] disagree with all of your answers but will look at SH’A 157 again

.

B] your answer is not addressing the question —
the question is re the immediate p/n resulting from inaction of the IDF [!] …. not about the situation WITH IDF’s ACTION

you attempt to prove the lack of p/n in EY from the fact that no people run away in the present … you totally ignore the fallacy of this proof …

the reason they do not run away is a result of the IDF’s activities … the question was re p/n WHEN THE IDF is INACTIVE …

.

you are straw manning my words — I never advocated for mass aliah to EY … I advocate for an honest open minded FACT BASED normative halachik analysis of the situation

without being pre-obligated and biased to zionist ideology , nor to antizionist ideology

.

firstly – this entire discussion IS ABOUT the potential dismantlement of the medina and the IDF

secondly – there IS NO SERIOUS ATTEMPT AT ALL on your behalf to provide exact details of a replacement government

thirdly – you totally ignore the plain fact that ‘evil parties’ are right now , as we debate , threatening lives …..

and you totally ignore the main issue … not whether there SHOULD be the option to leave ….

rather the main issue is whether there WILL BE the option to leave ….

what SHOULD BE is totally irrelevant ….

.

so -the question again :
What is your reasonable practical plan how ‘running away’ is going to preclude the p/n resulting from the IDF being inactive ….

you are talking about millions ‘running away’ … all ages ….sucklings and grandmothers …. healthy people and sick people ….
…. wheelchairs and stretchers … double buggies and pregnant mothers ….

What is your reasonable practical plan where this ‘running away’ is going towards … towards which country ….
you have not furnished any reasonable practical details …

What is your reasonable practical timetable re how long this ‘running away’ of millions is going to take …
and what reasonable and practical safeguards do you have for the safety of those millions while the ‘running away’ is going on ….

.

C] you seem to pretend to make a uturn now , while plausibly still secretly maintaining that rav chaim is a zuken mamre

.

D] I still maintain that in the past these were your claims . But you are not obligated to maintain them in the present .

so — for the present : can you clarify your position ?

Given that hatsala responds with hilul shabat to address even avoidable and previously self created emergencies …. do you agree that jews should respond with hilul shevu’a to address avoidable and previously self created emergencies ?

I have no more time now — but will bln continue

wow

thanks to ujm …

AAQ:
I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave

somejew :
many jews get arrested while trying to leave

AAQ :
people who knew they will be obligated to serve in the army, chose to stay in the country, and then got arrested for violating army orders. These people had time to leave before they were called up. They did not care.
I am not sure what yeshiva is responsible for your education. You seem to be totally oblivious to the idea of emes in a discussion.
.

.

.

This seems like an established pattern

A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable

B] other posters reply and disagree

C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc

D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face

E] somejew gets offended and disappears

F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh

G] back to A again ….

====

the only way somejew is able to disprove the above post

is by supplying a point by point, fact and logic based answer , to each and every question

without running away ….

what somejew was doing till now , was plain …. running away …

it s high time somejew is accountable for the shenanigans he is posting

.
.

@rescue

we can respect others and still disagree with them and not be ‘superior’ as you put it

only God knows who is ‘superior’ . this not for us , this is hidden from us

but that does not mean everyone’s opinion is equal

there are opinions which are clearly ‘superior’ over other opinions

people keep on mixing those two issues

you are correct about people not being ‘superior’

but you are not correct about opinions not being superior

.
.

YYA

How could participating in the behirot of the medina be yehareig veal yaavor when the actions of the IDF itself are not

something does not add up in your portrayal of the shitah of the SR

in any case , my post was not addressing the SR perse

I am referring to what every satmar, from poster on yeshivaworld , to the pashute man in the street to the dayan who gave shiurim on vayoel moshe

say : that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

I would be willing to yield to you re the shitah of SR personally that he held that p/n is docheh the shavu’ot

but then my question from the start of this post comes back

and secondly — how come all satmar hasidim themselves say not like you ???

where did they get it from ?

all signs seem to point that SR himself held that p/n is not doche the shavu’ot

where am I going wrong in my logic ?

@YYA

you are misconstruing my argument here , with apologies

I am not arguing against the reputation of SR chvsh

which you seem obligated to defend

the reputation of SR as a kdosh elyon and a huge talmid haham who sacrificed himself for klal yisrael is well established and undisputed

that is not the issue

the point is re the underlying principle under which many people operate their thinking and their approach

with potentially enormous consequences – and that is still an understatement …

that pikuach nefesh is not a factor to be halachically counted whenever dealing with any question re the medina

that is THE point here .

this negation of pikuach nefesh is totally baseless in halacha,

and in addition, this is without equal in any other area in halacha , where so much care is given to base one’s psak

on reality , on logic , on rigorous proof from chazal , from rishonim, from our great halacha codifiers , from poskim ,

with letters of inquiry between gdolei hador , bekoved rosh …

whereas in this case all these rigorous procedures are somehow summarily tossed out of the window ….

Mods – cannot see the comments …

@rescue

I do not know your background …

but have a question for you

you advocate for ‘common sense’ as opposed to rules

some 85 years ago in Central Europe ‘common sense’ was something very different to what it is now

how are you to know which ‘common sense’ is the right one ?
.
.

hello

@YYA

If that was meant literally, then that means he held of his יישוב of the Maharal הלכה למעשה. The Divrei Yoel had the right to learn pshat however he saw fit. He also knew how to read the Shulchan Aruch. There were other Poskim who disagreed (at least with this part of his Shittah.)
———

That was not the issue I raised

I never questioned SR ‘right’ to learn pshat as he saw fit …

nor did I ever question SR’s ability to learn Sh’A …

the question I raise is for us , how can WE follow SR in paskaning that p/n is not doche the shavu’ot

with the result [if the circumstances align] that it is better to chvsh lose all inhabitants in EY than to have the IDF defend their lives

when the pashtut of shulchan aruch and poskim is to the opposite ?

where else , in what other area in torah do we arrive at a maskana halacha lemaaseh

with such a type of mehalech or procedure ?
—-

dont forget even if maharal is halacha lemaaseh

which is very difficult to accept

we still have to jump through lots of hoops to arrive at a yehareig veal yaavor psak in the case of IDF fighting to preserve the jews in EY

1] who said in definite way that the shavu’ot have not expired at the end of elef hachamishi – like the pashtut in r chaim vital

2] who said in a definite way that haskamat ha’ umot is not a heter [like avnei nezer maintains] and that the league of nations mandate or the 1947 UN vote qualify as haskama

3] who said in a definite way that notwithstanding that the question we are dealing with is not the ESTABLISHMENT of the medina , but rather its MERE EXISTENCE ex post facto ,this is still a violation of the shavu’ot [like the steipeler in karyane de igrata maintains] …

in order to arrive at a yehareig veal yaavor psak you will have to answer with a DEFINITE answer to all of the above questions

otherwise it is a safek nefashot

and even after a definite answer to all questions

you have to discount the pashtut in sh’a ,tur, yad etc etc which mandates saving lives

.

@aaq
you want to live in EY but do not want to live in the Medinah? Go to PA, Gazah, Jordan, Syria and make your case for being a perfect dhimmi.
[aaq]

—

this is not a ‘de jure’ argument

this is only a ‘de facto’ argument

‘de jure’ they have no right to make a jew so uncomfortable in their self made medina

that he is forced to go and live in those judenrein places

every jew has the inherent right to live in EY

it is not by the virtue of the medina’s goodwill that a jew lives in EY

I want to live in EY free from secular coercion

and that is my definite right
.
.

@somejew

that’s what you routinely have been doing for the last few months …

you argue , you respond , you curse , and then you disappear

to be followed after a while by another round

of the same ….
.
.
.

@ julius

the argument against the draft because of the resulting remake of the draftees into their commanders image is very powerful

this is against the whole torah

much stronger than some weak reasoned principle of the 3 shavu’ot

which does not withstand even summary scrutiny
.

This seems like an established pattern

A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable

B] other posters reply and disagree

C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc

D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face

E] somejew gets offended and disappears

F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh

G] back to A again ….
.
.
Good to recognize a pattern …
.
.
.

@ujm

I did not check all countries in your list

but Syria ’11 was not the US at all …
.

@qwerty

the argument is not against the habad people who as you keep on saying , are wonderful people

not ‘crazy’ at all

the argument is about their newfangled baseless brainwash

to which they were subjected by their rebbi going back to the very first moment in 1950 when rayats was niftar

their rebbi himself was a wonderful person too

but the brainwash is plainly indigestible and totally foreign to our millennia old yahadut

the problem is that new generations are being raised , all spoon-fed with that very same drivel …
.
.
.

YYA

it seems we keep on agreeing …

but the rhetoric from satmar is not as you portray it

they seem to sincerely believe that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

and that it would ‘better’ to chv’sh lose all of the yehudim in EY , rather than have the IDF fight for their survival

I hear this from their rabanim , from their posters here and from their people on the street

it is that principle that I am questioning …

they base the resistance to the draft on that principle of theirs

whereas all the other haredim base their resistance to the draft

on the obvious danger to yahadut …

there is a huge difference between the two ….

dont forget — with the future demographic trends as they are

the non frum segment of jews all over the world will decline

conversely the frum will become an ever increasing part

with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder

on questions of outside support for the medina …

are we prepared that the governments around the world get the message from their jews that the medina should close shop ?

this is an issue which needs to be hashed out , in my opinion at least …

The Chareidim actually have ‘Efrat’, which is a Chareidi organization whose sole purpose is to save Chiloni babies… Think about that for a second. Chareidim, for themselves, don’t need the services of Efrat at all. But they pay for it and volunteer for it. Is there any comparable Chiloni organization that ONLY helps Chareidim? [Efrat has nothing to do with Kiruv and doesn’t in any way mix into the lives of these children when they grow. They do their עבודת קודש simply so that these Jewish babies should live.]

[yya]

—

extremely powerful argument
.

vayidom manages to contradict himself in the span of only 2 sentences

he needs the haredim

and also wants them to submit to a process which remakes their children into non haredim ….

hmmmm……
.
.

YYA

maybe I did not explain properly

my question was not on maharal

it was on the widely held belief that SR holds that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

how does that square with SH’A YD 157 ?
.
.
.

you claim that SR agrees that p/n is doche the shavu’ot ?

any discussion I had with satmar people on this topic , yielded the same result

p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

it does not sound that they all are mistaken in the shitah of the SR

just last week I asked a satmar aligned rav who used to give public shiurim on vayoel moshe

this very same question re p/n being docheh the shavu’ot according to sh’a

he said that SR held that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

when I asked about the pashtut of the shulhan aruch YD 157

he said that he does not know and has to be me’ayen
.
.
.
besides:

Its not just an ‘omission’ in the mechaber and rama

As far as I remember they state that in all other issurim the klal of yaavor veal yehareig applies

technically the shavu’ot [if indeed applicable lehalacha as SR holds in his sefer] are included in she’ar issurim

thats the pashtut

so we do have a statement that all issurim are nidcheh mipnei p/n , including the shavu’ot ….
.
.
.

What do you think ?