It’s not a misconception. I went through Gehenoim for my questions. I was called names, yelled at and misunderstood by most people that i spoke to. I learned to keep it to myself and do my own research. It’s true that they said “good question” but when they tried answering me and i argued back and told them their answers were not logical and insufficient, they said i was unwilling to accept and i must have a real problem. One rabbi told me that because i have such questions a yid might not be able to drink wine that i touch. This is not a fairy tale from an angry teenager. This is a true story that happened to me.

It’s one problem. They teach not to care about how you look which causes some to care too much. I am the yeshiva hater you are talking about. Proud of it. Burnt by the system. I’m that guy.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no difference between finding a shidduch and anything else in life with regards to “bashert”. Everything that happens in this world is hashem’s will and hashem knows exactly what will happen, and it’s always for the good. If you aren’t sure what you will eat for breakfast and you end up eating pancakes, it is bashert. This doesn’t mean that we should just walk through life without trying to make things as best as we possibly can with the reasoning that everything is bashert anyway. Such thinking is foolish. For some reason people take the bashert concept to a whole new level when it comes to shidduchim. They quote a saying from chazal that everyone’s match is declared in heaven before they are born. That is true, but it’s not as if heaven didn’t know even earlier who your match is. Everthing is destined from above. But we still need to live our life according to the guidelines of the torah which includes looking out for your best interest and looking for someone to marry that will suit you best and help you further in your avodas hashem. Any questions and confusion about a bashert shidduch can really be general issues you may have with the concept of yediah and bechirah.

Learn a little Mussar and think about life for a minute or two and realize that just because your friend is “going off” it doesn’t mean his gehenoim is going to be any hotter than yours and you will start to act as the same friend you always were and if enough people do that, he will get the feeling that Yiddishkiet is a beautiful true religion that is all about believing in and fearing the creator of the world and not about his parents, teachers and friends telling him how he should live his life.

A break off from EvanAl “Evan Shesiyah” the name of the stone in the second beis hamikdash. can also be translated as rock & drink.

Avram, that was beautiful.

You still do not understand my first post. You keep asking why he would do it. You want an answer that will be some sort of gain for him. I am telling you that he is doing it for the gain of hashem, not for his own gain. Why isn’t that enough of a reason for him to do it? You have this idea that every thing people do is for their good. I am waiting for you to tell me how you know it must be that way.

He chooses what to do, and he can choose to do what God says simply to serve God. That is the reason.

Patur Aval Assur: I did not read the entire thread, but I would like to answer your original question. I believe this may be correct answer, so please read carefully.

Your question is based on the assumption that all humans only do things that are motivated by a pleasure that they will derive from that action. Your question follows that “why” should we serve Hashem for any reason other than reward (which the Mishna expects us to do). You cleverly pointed out that reasons like feeling good are really only other forms of reward which should not be considered different than doing it for the Olam Haba type of reward.

When you ask “why” should we do it, you want an answer that will contain some sort of pleasure based motivation that will explain the action, and then you refute it by saying that it’s reward.

But your assumption is wrong. The question why should or why would a person do something does not necessarily make sense. Think about it. How do you know that people only do things for a reason? Does a plant decide that it’s a wise idea to start growing in the spring? How do you know that people are different? Observation? I am not arguing with you that it certainly seems that people behave that way, but how do you know it’s an inherent rule of nature? There is no known scientific law that explains why people (or animals) must do things only for a personal gain.

Now, I am not suggesting that there are people out there who bang pots on their knees every morning for no reason at all. But as a Terutz to explain the Mishna, I would like to suggest the following. There is a Madrega that can be reached at which point a person is serving the Ribono Shel Olam not for the purpose of getting a reward. Which includes all reward. “Why” is he doing it? Because he reached that level of Avodas Hashem where his body follows the Torah even if his bodily desires contradict it. His body no longer follows the rules of regular bodies that only do things for the purpose of pleasure.

I don’t think there is a logical argument that can be made against the possibility of such a thing existing. It might still bother you that “how” can he be doing something with no reward type of motivation. I will answer that perhaps if we continue to serve Hashem non stop in the most extreme way possible for us, maybe one day we will experience the true Avodah of Shelo Al M’nas Lekabel Pras and we will see for ourselves exactly how it is possible.