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@HaKatan: Denigration? Go look in the mirror. You are guilty of that more than anyone here.
You and your ilk should take back every single horrible thing you have said about the RZ and MO communities over the years. And again, I will note you have never substantially answered anything I have said in rebuttal to you, ever. You instead either don’t respond or continue to quote the same Rabbonim and repeat the same slander and misinformation, even when it has been called out, taken apart, questioned and utterly debunked.
@UJM: Joseph, don’t play innocent. You know as well as I do that you think the RZ community believes that DBG and TH were Moshaich, which is false.@Non Political:
It’s also not good form to constantly call the RZ community heretics and project what you think the RZ community believes without even attempting to find out what those beliefs are.Re hagiographies, nice red herring, but I’ll bite. If you think hagiographies are reverance rather than deification or something slightly less worse, Chassidishe Rebbelach and Roshei Yeshiva being attributed the sort of divine spirit Christians claim their saints have, and you have no problem with that, you’re being obtuse. On top of that, hagiographies give wrong impressions of real lives, which are often more inspirational than claims like “Rashi knew all of Chumash by heart at age 5”. But that isn’t my point and it never was. My point is that the above behavior combined with Rabbonim ruling and controlling their followers by edicts and bad actors (and there is no way you will convince me that Askanim are good for the community) rather than through an actual Bais Din with Takanos duly issued per the prescribed process in the Rambam, Mishna and Bavli does actually replace the Torah with something else. And I will repeat that this was in direct response to HaKatan once again accusing me of heresy, which is so far from the truth it is ridiculous.
As as side point: Regarding Rav Aharon Feldman in particular (who wasn’t even on the radar in my comment since he isn’t part of the Charedi establishment in Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim), I’m very well acquainted with his extended family and his beliefs reflect living in Bnei Brak for many years, as opposed to the rest of his family that have far more nuanced beliefs, which I have first hand knowledge of. And that is with all due respect to him as the Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisrael, et cetera.
Re Gezeros, Takanos and Pesakim regarding the Army and the State, okay, I’ll play ball. If a recognized local Beis Din had gotten up in 1947-1948 and duly issued a Gezera, Takana or Pesak that it is prohibited to serve in the army or have anything to do with the State for xyz Halachic reason, that would be one thing. There would be clear grounds avoid contact with the state and a justification for such. That has not happened. To the best of my knowledge, no Beis Din with any sort of binding authority has done any such thing (remember, binding authority is either through a local court or a national court, the latter of which has not existed since the Bavli, if not earlier). There have been proclamations and statements by Rabbonim as well as Seforim written about the subject. Those are not Takanos, Gezeros or Pesakim. They aren’t binding. Therefore, there is no excuse for avoiding the IDF beyond not trusting Chilonim, which while totally understandable (I’m not thrilled about my kids serving in the army in the distant future, especially together with Chilonim, and that is putting it extremely mildly) is still not a good enough excuse to avoid service at all costs, especially considering the efforts the IDF actually does take to ensure that Charedim can maintain their lifestyle within reason.
None of you have to like my opinion and that’s fine. However, I demand the same respect for the RZ community that the Charedi community demands; I insist on it and will accept nothing less. These anti-RZ and Israel threads are quite frankly unacceptable.
@ujm – If you think the RZ community believes any of that, you’re as guilty as HaKatan.
@ujm: absolutely not. Even if I did live in the USA , I would never move to NYC.
No, I have not added any such heresy. Rabbonim are not gods, they certainly are not HKB”H Himself, although you may think they are like the Pope (certainly Chassidim behave as such). I’ve responded to you repeatedly, but like usual, either you’re acting in bad faith or your reading comprehension level is considerably lower than I thought, even for an Appalachian Transcarpathian like yourself. To clarify again, because I’m not going to let you claim שתיקה כהודאה:
1) Charedim have deified Rabbis (see Artscroll hagiographies as blatant examples of that) to the point of the Charedi community replacing the Torah with something else entirely, that being Rabbinic edict and deification of Rabbonim, which beyond being legally unacceptable by Halakhic standards (an actual Bais Din is required for a Gezera or Takana, not what currently occurs in Israel or the Aguda, and certainly not what gets slapped on Pashkevilim) (2) more often than not is not guided by Rabbonim, but by bad actors – also known as Askanim – who provide partial or false information for their own personal gain. This is a known thing, and it is unfortunately only the Charedim who don’t see it or the harm it brings. I lament this state of affairs where I am forced to question what Rabbonim say because it’s simply unconscionable that Rabbonim would actually sign or utter such things; the fact that you don’t get that is very telling.
Sinas Yisrael is partially what Yankel Berel said – מפקיר דמם של ישראל, which you are guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is accusing an entire community of essentially being an עיר הנדחת, which beyond being completely and utterly false, is acccusing a community of acting in a manner liable for capital punishment, which you’re also guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is taking every single government handout possible and giving nothing material in return, such as paying taxes and working rather than using תורתינו הקדושה כקרדום לחפור בו. Sinas Yisrael is saying “Your children have to die protecting me, but my children will not die protecting you and yours”.
On the other hand, Sinas Yisrael is not expecting the Charedi community to pull its weight. Do I need to quote Moshe Rabbeinu’s statement to Reuven, Gan and half of Menashe to you? Only Chilonim want to shut down Yeshivos. The RZ community absolutely does not want that, and you declaring such is מוציא שם רע, מוציא לעז, רכילות and לשון הרע, and there certainly is no תועלת in such. What the RZ community wants is for the Charedi community to stop the התנשאות והתנהגות של גאווה toward everyone else and show they actually care. Without minimizing what the Charedi community has done during the last war, more needed to be done, and that more is specifically serving in the army and giving the RZ community a chance to rest.
Again, I have never said the IDF is perfect. However, the IDF has tried gone far out of its way to create frameworks for Charedim to stay Charedi in the army. The army lets people skip early morning lineups to daven, they bring in Rabbonim to speak (which Chilonim freak out about for no reason other than their total ignorance and שנאת תורה הקדושה), there is maximum effort to meet Kashrus standards. Meanwhile, it’s patently obvious that anyone Charedi who goes OTD while in the army already wanted to do so and is using the IDF as an excuse. But of course, you’ll just use the No True Scotsman fallacy to declare any Charedi person who has served to not truly be Charedi.
Lastly, for the millionth time: RZ does not worship the State as an idol. Period. The fact that you can’t see that reflects entirely on you.
Just think – If you read HaKatan’s history, you will see that he does nothing but slander the entire Religious Zionist community any chance he gets. It’s a constant thing with him.
Square Root isn’t totally wrong, most unfortunately. I wish he were, but he isn’t.
I highly suggest you read his post history before assuming I’m picking on anyone
@yeshivaguy – I don’t need to read the book. The Rabbi’s son’s rebuttal, which was put out pretty quickly after the book’s release, is enough.
You’ve also just proven my point – they are supposedly teaching a lesson and inspiring people. That isn’t a biography – that’s a hagiography at the minimum.
@citadel – The mods don’t allow links, but if I remember correctly, you can find it on YouTube under a channel called Torat Andalus. That should tell you exactly who was slandered and who his son is without having to give names.@Yeshivaguy45 – No, the author did not contact the family. It is on record. Like I said, his son clarified the facts in a video. You can look it up. If the author bothered to “do his research”, he would know that “Muad” is a degrading term in Arabic and wouldn’t have used it.
On top of that, Artscroll is notorious for publishing hagiographies, not biographies, and there is a difference betwen them.
This was nothing more than Artscroll taking potshots at a Hakham they did not like, just like how their volume of Shir HaShirim presents interpretation as translation (absolutely not the same thing), and just like how their Hilchos Nidda book for some odd reason contains an angry rant about teenagers violating Issur Negia.
Mods, please keep this thread open, but please do close all the anti-RZ threads.
HaKatan: “HaTorah haZo lo sihei muchlefes.” You did that with the Rabbonim you worship like Catholics worship G-d via the Pope, also known as “Gadolatry”.
I am also not going to take it up with Rabbonim who died nearly 100 years ago. I will, however, take umbrage with you, who is a Sonei Yisrael and deserve to be treated as such.
Yankel: “the RZ tell their rabanim what to say”. That’s unfair. The same could be said about Charedi Rabbonim who sign whatever Askanim place before them (yes, that actually happens).
I have not read the book and I have no intention of doing so.
That being said, I know exactly who “Rabbi Muad” was, and that “Muad” is an extremely insulting term to be used at all, but certainly in reference to that individual.
The Rabb in question’s son responded in detail on on YouTube with regard to the events mentioned in the Artscroll book and what actually happened.
The author should be ashamed of himself.
“So, “Hesder Jews”, who practice the idolatrous and heretical “Religious Zionism”, and also allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army, are obviously not practicing the “correct Derech HaTorah”. The “correct Derech HaTorah” is to remain Jews who serve only G-d, not Jews who also worship the Zionist idol and also not to allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army.”
Again, you will answer HKB”H for slandering an entire community of Orthodox Jews.
You just don’t get it, and you never will.
HaKatan:
Again:
1) R’ Teitelbaum did not have binding judicial authority outside his own community. He certainly did not have such authority in his own country of origin. He did not have that binding authority anywhere else in Europe, certainly nowhere in the Middle East and North Africa. He was one opinion. You clearly do not understand that simple fact, just like you don’t understand how judicial authority is supposed to work within Judaism as a whole, the non-binding nature of moder practice and what we call Minhag (which isn’t actually Minhag), the fact that there has been no true binding judicial authority since the Bavli, and the fact that there are major differences between Ashkenazi and Sephardim with regard to following legal precedent. Hint: Ashkenazim tend to demand it, Sephardim do not. It is not a violation of Halacha to say, “with all due respect to the prior court, we’re ruling differently for xyz reason”. So your Halacha LiMaaseh argument is void.
2) Whether your utterly pathetic self likes it or not, Aggadeta such as that in Shir Hashirim cannot be used for pesak Halacha. Period. End of discussion. They are an Asmachta at most, which makes the oaths possibly Dinim Muflaim, Rabbinic Laws that can be overturned. Your claim otherwise is also void.
3) You are wrong vis-a-vis Risaala Al-Yemeniyya, notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary. Understand: You don’t know what you’re talking about. If you bothered to read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya in the original Arabic (like I have), or a reputable Hebrew translation from someone such as a member of the Qafih family, instead of whatever biased, Ashkenazi half-translation you read, you would know that Rambam does not issue any sort of halachic ruling with regard to the so-called “oaths” and that the precise context of these “oaths” is encouraging Yemeni Jewry to stand strong in the face of pressure to convert or face violence/death. The only halachic material is laying out how to determine if someone is a false Messiah. The oaths are a rhetorical device. That’s it. You’re wrong and you wearing a fedora, kopek, streimel or whatever headgear you want will not cover up that fundamental misunderstanding.
In the end, we don’t have to listen to anything R’ Teitelbaum said. It’s really that simple. You can kick, scream and name call all you want. It’s pathetic at this point, and you’re not changing minds.
You also will answer HKB”H for slandering an entire community after 120.
This thread, quite frankly, is pure idiocy.
ujm – That is not your business.
There is something seriously wrong with you, HaKatan and somejewiknow.
@qwerty613 – Many of us have asked Mr. Small to explain his position on several occasions and his response is to fire off the same tired statements from various Rabbonim. There is no substance to his arguments. He will not expain what within Zionism – and especially RZ – is idolatry. There are only claims that “Zionists worship a state, not G-d”, an argument relevant 80-125 years years ago, but not relevant today.
@Non Political – The RZ movement is not at war with the Charedi world. The Charedi world is titling at windmills a la Don Qixote.
@somejew – First of all, please provide the Hebrew original.
Second, the objections are the same tired objections the Charedi world expresses every 30 seconds, which are not going to change without Charedim enlisting en-masse and forcing the change they want. They have nothing to do with your favorite bogey-man, Zionism.
@ujm – Zionism has nothing to do with this, Joe. See above.@AAQ (Dr.?) – He’s reversing the order specifically to denigrate Rav Soloveitchik. He can’t help himself.
@somejewiknow – I wasn’t talking about R’ Teitelbaum. That leaves exactly three people I could be referring to.
Aheimisher – I believe that Judaism should follow the baseline rulings of the Misha, the Bavli/Yerushalmi, Mishne Torah, then whatever historical halachik precedent you want (more of an Ashkenazi approach than Sephardic) – if you even want to do that much. We do not have a national judicial authority with broad consensus and pesak being voted on. We haven’t had such since the Bavli (and Yerushalmi). There is only local authority – meaning a local Beis Din, and even that doesn’t really exist, considering that each Shul considers its Rabbi the “Mara D’asra”, and there usually muiltiple Batei Din unless you live in a small community.
R’ Teitelbaum did not have judicial authority outside his community; he certainly did not have any binding judicial authority, ergo no one needs to listen to what he wrote.
somejewiknow – What a load of bunk, and that is putting it extremely mildly.
If you think NK is promoting peace and understanding, you’re beyond clueless. Might I remind you that NK went to Iran – which has stated repeatedly that Israel should be wiped off the map and it aims to do so, R”L.
Don’t play games, Sonei Yisrael.
Yaakov Yosef – Yes, we don’t fit perfectly into the boxes, and Israelis definitely don’t fit the checkboxes they claim to. It’s also why so many Anglos tend to eventually start their own Shuls and institutions – because of not totally fitting into mainstream Israeli society.
ujm – No. It wasn’t an excellent point. It was stupid, but definitely what could be expected from an Appalachian Transcarpathian.
R Teitelbaum’s works are most definitely not binding Halacha Le-Ma’aseh. On top of that, R’ Teitelbaum most definitely did not have judicial authority outside his community.
No one else is required to listen to him.
@somejewiknow – In that case, you have absolutely no right to state your opinion about Satmar, Vayoel Moshe, etc.
Yaakov Yosef – Exactly right. Both ujm and HaKatan have no clue.
Charedim call me a Zionist, the RZ public considers me very Charedi-leaning.
To answer the question directly, I do live in EY. Proudly so.
And I have my criticisms of the State, but those specific criticisms are only shared privately with those living in Israel. Not with those living in Chu”l.
I would assume most live in the Tri-State area.
Those who live in EY tend to have a more nuanced attitude (i.e., no one would say the State is perfect).
This is pure idiocy and ignorance. Or to quote Ramban: אין טעם ואין ריח.
Let me set the record somewhat straight before the resident Appalachian Transcarpathians weigh in.
1) First of all, the OP vastly overestimates the willingness to fund independent Kashrut organizations and the necessary (expensive) infrastructure. Even Tzohar, in addition to its fundraising, depends to a certain degree upon Rav Stav’s position as the Rav of the city of Shoham, affiliated Rabbis’ positions within the Rabbanut and the Rabbanut Kashrus infrastructure. Let me be clear: I am not attacking Rav Stav or Tzohar. Whether the OP and folks here like it or not, Tzohar has become a legit alternative to the Rabbanut and Misrad HaDatot.
2) There is the Rabbanut and there is the Misrad HaDatot. They are two different, albeit connected entities. The Rabbanut is under the Misrad HaDatot. That was how you ended up with the bizarre situation of a minister threatening the tenure of a Chief Rabbi.
3) The Misrad HaDatot is a government ministry that is corrupt and full of Shas and Agudist lackeys. That corruption was how you ended up with the totally preventable situation about 10-15 years ago where the Petach Tikva Beis Din decided (brainlessly) to reject a completely legit conversion done in the USA and thereafter experienced massive blowback from American Orthodox Jewry, from LWMO to Charedim. Rav David Lau warned the court of blowback on both politcal and halachic grounds, but the Shas and Agudist lackeys decided they knew better and got egg on their faces as a result. From the perspective of both an American and an Israeli, it was incredibly embarassing.
The reason why so many Chilonim hate the Rabbanut is because of the Misrad HaDatot, not the Rabbanut in of itself. The Misrad HaDatot dictates – before marriage – who the bride and groom are to learn Hilchos Nidda from. Outside Yishuvim and DL majority areas, they are usually Charedi individuals who should not be teaching Chilonim. Yes, Chilonim are hostile to the idea of learning Hilchos Niddah and they come in with a massive chip on their shoulder, which they should not do. Charedim do not help, considering their inability to reach Chilonim in any meaningful manner.
The only reasonable employees at the Misrad HaDatot are those who are not Charedi. I know this first hand. Upon Aliyah, it was a Charedi clerk who wanted to declare our Ketubah invalid on grounds of “not liking” wording. The wording was the standard American. It was his DL supervisor who first berated the clerk (he recognized my Rav’s name on the marriage certificate), made the clerk call my Rav early in the morning in the USA – while I was in the office, and ask his question. My Rav’s response was, “You call me to verify other Rabbonim. You’re questioning a wedding I performed?”. Even Charedim don’t want to interact with Charedim at the Misrad HaDatot.
4) There is the Rabbanut itself. It is a government office, but its purpose is to maintain a specific level of Orthodox Judaism that is more or less acceptable to all. It intersects with the average Israeli at major points in life such as birth, bris milah, marriage/divorce and death. For the most part it does what it is supposed to do. They try their best, but they are hamstrung by both the secular legal and political system and Charedi politics and policy.
5) Kashrus: The Rabbanut does all the work and is minimally the equivalent of the OU. Charedi hechsherim show up, check one set of lungs (not enough to verify for Kashrus purposes), look at a few ingredients, then leave. The hechsherim are worthless. It’s similar to how the OU does the overwhelming majority of the work in the USA, and the Charedim just piggyback again and do a worthless, cursory check. Charedim might as well rely on the OU and the Rabbanut.
6) If the OP thinks abolishing the Rabbanut will end the things he would like to see disappear, he is blind. Chilonim will just consider it a victory and then try to ban funding to both Charedi and DL Yeshivot and other institutions.
@Yaakov Yosef – No, different people. This is a kid trolling.
But ujm and HaKatan may be the same person.
If you’re considering Aliyah, do so intelligently and plan carefully. But definitely do so.
Well, they are, and anyone who reads the Hebrew language media knows it. Including Charedim themselves.
Well, they are, especially a certain housing minister.
Anyone who reads the Hebrew language press knows this.
What on earth is wrong with you?
@AAQ – I have no idea, but I suspect not. Certainly there was nothing of the sort when I was in school in the 90s-2000s.
That’s an interesting statement by RJBS – and I agree with it. I’ve said before that there are far too many people with Semicha who shouldn’t be allowed within 10 feet of a Shulchan Aruch.
“You can’t, because Jews do not have a common land, language and culture.”
What on earth are you talking about? We most certainly do.
Did you sleep through Chumash class from 1st grade through the end of Mesivta (and by extension, Matan Torah)?
EY, Jews, the Torah and Yiddishkeit are inextricably linked. I get you’re trying (pathetically and in vain) to remove Zionism from the picture by any means necessary, but all you’re actually doing is severing the link between them.
HaKatan
Hold up, boy-o.
You said:
“Every form of Zionism believes in at least two things:
1. Judaism is a Nationality, not (only) a religion, and Zionism is the current manifestation of that Nationality.
2. The Zionist “State” is the Nation-State of that religion.”First of all, I am guessing your overly reduced point is: Zionism believes Judaism is a nationality only and the State is the Nation-State of that secularist entity. If that’s your point, you’ve stated it very poorly to say the least.
If that isn’t your point and that you think Judaism is not a nationality and is instead something else, please spell out exactly what sort of group you think Jews are, if we are not a nation and ergo by definition a nationality. Nations have a unique language, culture, religion, writing system, etc. We have these things. These are the things that separated us from the Egyptians, as pointed out by Rashi. Do you deny this?
If so, please confirm you believe that term “Am Yisrael” is a misnomer, and that the term “Am” – that appears hundreds of times within the Chumash alone, is incorrect. Please also confirm you believe the phrase in Parshas Yisro – “Mamleches Kohanim ve-Goy kadosh”, as well as the phrases in Ve’eschanan – “Am chacham venavon” and “Goy gadol”- are not true and that we’re followers of one religion like Islam, Hinduism, or the followers of the so-called carpenter, rather than what we are – a nation and a rather obvious ethnoreligious group.
@AAQ – I like the idea.
In Israel, the RZ sector has “bagruyot” – basically tests you need to pass to be considered to have graduated high school – that are in Tanach and Torah She-Ba’al Peh.
I don’t see any problem with such a test being applied globally, and modified as needed to suit communal needs.
@ujm –
There are at least 80 Hesder Yeshivot with permanent Kollelim. They are army yeshivot, and receive money from the IDF/Israeli government. So no, the IDF (and by extension the Israeli government) does not devalue Torah Study. Quite the opposite, actually.
To be sure, there are certainly things in the IDF that should be less priority (some of the things you mentioned) – but you have those things when there is an ideologically secularist upper echelon.
As for Charedim being the only ones significantly engaged in Torah Study in a permanent manner – again, you’re a pathetic liar. And I can easily argue that Charedim are not any more engaged in Torah Study than the RZ sector is (something that is blindingly obvious to anyone who has lived in or adjacent to Charedi enclaves for any extended period of time).
The excuses you’ve provided are pathetic. RZ soldiers are attending Shiurim in between rounds of fighting in Gaza and Lebanon. The photos of soldiers’ notebooks full of Torah have been shown all over the place in Jewish media, as have photos of those Shiurim.
You’re wrong, hopelessly ignorant and completely unlettered.
@AAQ – He wouldn’t accept a test to determine exemptions – because it would have been developed (and possibly administered) by Zionists, which by definition is a no-go in his book. Even if the Gedolim created such a test, he would reject it on the grounds that the Gedolim caved to the Zionists – and they are therefore not Geolim anymore. To ujm and his ilk, there is no situation where anyone may have anything to do with the State unless it is to take money.
@AAQ – No, there aren’t. Because they consider Z and MO to be heresy of the highest level, they’ll never engage seriously.
3 brief points (I’m done arguing with you):
1) It is patently false that you have not rejected one Sefer. You’ve rejected anything that is authored by an individual who supports Zionism, Chibat Tzion, Chovevei Tzion, Mizrachi, HaPoel Mizrachi, etc. That means you’ve rejected works by: 1) Rav Reines; 2) Rav Alkalai; 3) Rav Kalischer; 4) Rav Teichtal; 5) Rav Kook; 6) Rav Soloveitchik; 7) Rav Yeshayahu Shapira (Brother of the Piacezna Rebbe); 8) Rav Aviner – These are all Rabbonim who backed Zionism to varying degrees and/or have works supporting such (I’m not sure about Piacezna’s brother). The last one wrote a work that is a direct challenge to Vayoel Moshe.
2) You absolutely are using the no true scotsman fallacy. To you, no true Rav/Gadol could possibly be a Zionist, therefore any pro-Zionist work is heresy or a forgery and its author is a heretic. Which is why you reject all the Rabbonim above and their works (and in some cases, actions).
3) I don’t think anyone here rejects the sources used by the SR, or the sources in general. It is a rejection of the methodology used – You cannot rule Halacha based on Aggada. Because R’ Teitelbaum founded his entire Magnum Opus upon Aggada, it contains a fundamental error impeaches its authority. Its conclusions can be questioned.
UJM and your other aliases –
Blah, blah, blah, Zionism and Zionists bad, IDF bad. You’re a broken record. And you continue to intentionally misconstrue what’s being said to you.
The OP’s point is that it is super tone-deaf and insensitive to call for a day of prayer to avoid army service in the middle of a war where Charedim are the only ones (other than Israeli Arabs, who no one trusts with weapons) sitting pretty not sending their family members off to war, and not really even doing the necessary extra learning to protect soldiers. Only the utterly clueless could fail to understand that very fair and justifiable criticism.
My point to ard was very simple: Gedolim often aren’t the ones writing Pashkevilim or the letters mentioned within the OP. Askanim are writing them, and they back their positions with partial/faulty information, which is what is fed to the Gedolim. The Gedolim allow their signatures to be used based on that partial/faulty information. That’s why these letters are hard to take seriously. I can think of two recent examples where this happened and the fallout ended up with many losing respect for Gedolim. That’s it. You decided to take that as me being disrespectful of Rabbonim, when that isn’t so.
My point to DaasYochid (and later on to you) was my above statement about tone-deaf actions, only expanding it to include a general explanation of the resentment toward the Charedi public in general and during a war in particular, since I felt it necessary.
As for your comments about the IDF: The IDF does not devalue Torah learning. At all. I know this first hand. There are issues to be sure, but you are definitely not the person to have that conversation with, since you’re more interested in criticism and blame than anything else and it’s a waste of time.
I sense an implied accusation that I don’t consider תורתו אומנותו to be important – that is revolting to say the least. I never said such a thing, and would never say such a thing. I’ve said it is applied too broadly and is a net negative when applied too broadly. The RZ community doesn’t believe that either. They tend to share my view – that it’s applied too broadly.
One last thing: You said: “even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah” – This a canard, lie and utter falsehood and you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it.
UJM: Joseph, you missed the point like usual.
The point was that the names of our illustrious Gedolim are too often plastered all over every Pashkevil and letter willy-nilly with no thought of the consequences or necessity – or even if the Pashkevil may in fact be based on nonsense (or worse, political machinations), which makes such letters hard to take seriously. Askanim are the ones responsible for this, because they don’t provide the whole story, and that is a known fact. All of this is known, and any Chaim Yankel who spends any amount of time in a Charedi enclave knows this. That is essentially “rubber stamping” (and rampant abuse of Rabbinic authority by Askanim), and it is beyond unfortunate that it occurs.
FWIW, there is also the fact that I’m not a fan of ranking Rabbonim and even considering some to be completely infallible, but that is a different conversation.
DaasYochid:
They may have legitimate reasons. But we don’t have to accept them, and indeed most outside the Charedi sector do not.Ayin tovah? I’m not sure whether you’re addressing me or not, but regardless, give me a break. In other forums, I’m usually labeled a “RZ Charedi Apologist” or “Not truly RZ”. There is plenty of room to argue Charedim are selfish for not considering themselves part of the Kahal and constantly and consistency declare themselves exempt from any national obligation or responsibility toward others. I don’t see any selfless motives in that. I’m more than happy to hear what selfless motives you can ascribe to declaring oneself absolved of all national obligations and engaging in absolute austritt other than taking money from institutions such individuals essentially hate.
@ard – If you think the Gedolei HaDor actually authored these letters, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Askanim write the letters, the “Gedolim” simply rubber stamp them after receiving partial information. This is known and it is why Pashkevilim and these letters are very hard to take seriously.
@DaasYochid – He’s not necessarily devaluing the other side, he’s criticising (justifiably, I might add) Charedim for continuing to act like their blood is סומק טפי in a situation that is Pikuach Nefesh (maybe even Milchemes Mitzvah, but I don’t want to have that debate) – which demands picking up a gun and defending yourself. הבא להורגך השכם להורגו applies here, as does האחיכם יבאו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה. The fact that Charedim don’t and consistently look for every single excuse not to – that speaks volumes in of itself. You cannot expect those who serve and put their lives at risk to just be okay with a large segment of the population being able to just opt-out while they cannot. To the Chiloni majority, תורתו אומנותו is not a valid reason. Mental/physical illness is basically the only thing they will accept. To the DL community, תורתו אומנותו is valid, but there’s no way תורתו אומנותו applies to every single person in the Charedi sector, and it’s also applied in far too broad a manner to be reasonable.
1) HaKatan has unfortunately demonstrated time and again that he has no interest in views that aren’t his own (or even challenge them), and will just repeat the same arguments.
2) If you take a survey of what RJBS is known for, you’re going to overhwlemingly hear TuM and Modern Orthodoxy as opposed to Religious Zionism. As it happens, RJBS’s view is interesting – and I think is something Mizrachi should have considered.
3) I don’t really want to get into the politics surrounding Gush Katif. My use of such was merely to back what I said to HaKatan, nothing more. But the reality is that it completely changed the RZ community.
@Always_Ask_Questions – I’m not an insider but I live in Israel and this is an issue the Dati Leumi public discusses (even putting it in inappropriate places like עלוני שבת). The Ramatkal has an interest in maintaining the Chiloni Mehadrin command structure, so they promote those who share their values and POV to the highest echelons of the IDF.
@Simcha613 – You’re 100% right. But this is Yeshiva World News, so a significant plurality here is not going to agree with you and will outright reject it.@Non Political –
I grew up in a mixed MO-Yeshivish “out of town” community and learned in a mixture of Charedi and RZ institutions, including a Charedi high school and a Yeshivat Hesder in the Jordan Valley. I’ve been in Israel for most of my adult life and lived in a wide range of places. I’m aware my POV is atypical, especially for this forum.I can’t speak for what goes on in Bet El. I agree with the general statement regarding the rhetorical use of such derision, as opposed to actually believing it. To be sure there is derision and disrespect from both sides. My experience is more derision and negative treatment from Charedim
– Yated, Kikar Shabbat and B’Chadrei regularly post/distribute this type of content. Certainly American Charedi outlets and American Charedim themselves can’t seem to restrain themselves from doing such – prime examples are on this thread. I generally find it’s the RZ pundits who are most guilty of disrespecting Charedi Rabbonim (especially one particular staff writer for Matzav HaRuach (who deserves the flak he complains about receiving)), but even then it’s mostly due to the lack of IDF enlistment, the lack of recognition of the plainly obvious Yad Hashem in the State’s function (the State of Israel is a barely functional parliamentary democracy), and a lack of a sense of gratitude for anything provided to Charedim over the last 75-8p years or so. In fact, in this past week’s Matzav Ruach, the guilty party above tried to turn his article about the Rabbanut Tzva’it into a Charedi hit piece. The interviewees – who are in the Rabbanut Tzva’it – weren’t having it and told him to “keep the interview on the subject at hand and not move to irrelevant issues”. Which kind of makes my point.
@HaKatan – I am going to put this very politely: You are ignorant insofar as the RZ community is concerned. That is an understatement. You come on this forum and fire off accusations without substantiating them. You won’t substantiate them because you prefer to simply declare things what you think they are. When challenged, you ignore the challenge and try to change the terms of dicussion, declaring what you disagree with to be invalid proof. You tried that with me and I called you out on it. You are not arguing in good faith or engaging in an honest discussion. I’m calling you out on such again.I stand by what I said about working with the State to the degree possible. I have solid basis for such. You are clueless of the effect the Gush Katif and Northern Shomron evictions had upon the RZ community. That was a watershed moment. The RZ community nearly turned against the State in the wake of that abomination (and the overly violent eviction from Amona shortly thereafter) – and they would have actually done so had Ariel Sharon been so stupid as to carry that abomination out on Tisha B’Av itself (Tisha B’Av was the originally planned date until an advisor bascially said, “Hey, this is the worst date you could choose. You’re going to turn the RZ community Charedi”. So they delayed it). Everything changed with Gush Katif and there has been a marked shift in the RZ community’s treatment of the State since then (certainly those evicted themselves have a very complicated relationship with the State, to say the least). The RZ community may say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim and enlist in the IDF, but they are far more willing to openly criticise the state than in the past – and they do so regularly.
Those MiSheberachs are not heretical. Per Pirkei Avos and Halacha, you are required to pray for the government, even if it is “evil” (see the Czar and Nazi Germany). There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rav Kook’s prayer – there are so many qualifiers in such that it reflects what I’ve said (which was Der Ruv’s intent). There is nothing wrong with a prayer for what is essentially (for better or worse) a Jewish Army. There is nothing wrong with a prayer for the release and salvation of Jews living under oppressive regimes. If you want to prove otherwise, actually provide material responses beyond repeating the same quotes from the same Rabbonim. We have been waiting for you do so, but so far it’s just crickets from you.
As for RJBS’s writings about Zionism – I’m not interested in them. The RZ philosophy I read (should I bother) is from places such as Merkaz HaRav, The Eretz Chemda Institute and various Yeshivot Hesder. Figures such as Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, both Rav Kooks, and those that followed them. Not RJBS. RJBS is known for TuM, not RZ, ergo I do not consider him to be a major player insofar as RZ is concerned. Other people may feel otherwise and that’s fine.
As for your statements about Zionism: Ideologically Secularist Zionism, yes (and notice that no one here has disagreed that ideologically secularist Zionism is absolutely a problem). Not RZ. For the millionth time. Also I will point out that your continued insistence that EY has no significance essentially makes you one of the Meraglim, and you should probably keep in mind what happened to them after they slandered EY.
@Always_Ask_Questions – Right. Don’t disagree. Also, I’m not going to claim to be an expert on RJBS. That being said, I’ve done enough reading on RJBS and his philosophy to know HaKatan is full of it.@HaKatan – I got the reference and once again, you’re incorrect. Let me break this down for you:
Modern Orthodox is about survival in the modern era as an Orthodox Jew while not compromising anything within Orthodoxy. Everything from TiDE to TuM demonstrates such. It doesn’t actually include anything about Zionism, especially as *you* (erroneously) define it. The fact that some form of “Yay, State!” was added later doesn’t mean that much.
MO’s definition of Zionism is essentially supporting the State of Israel through AIPAC, Mizrachi, etc. and saying a couple of MiSheberachs that every single Shul, Yeshiva and Beis Midrash in Israel – regardless of headgear – should absolutely be saying per Pirkei Avos, but don’t actually need to be said outside Israel. Maybe MO gives some money, maybe their kids go learn in Yeshiva in Israel and spend a bunch of money there. That isn’t what RZ actually is (something I would know about, and you most definitely would not, seeing as you consider anything outside your daled amos to be treif). If anything, MO’s definition of Zionism is the watered down American version.
RZ is about cooperating with a B’di Eved State post-facto – to the degree possible within the fabric of Orthodox Judaism – with the goal of having enough religious influence upon it that perhaps (and emphasis on perhaps) it may end up in the future in retrospect as having been Aschalta D’Geula. There is real practice of Mitzvos Teluyos Ba’Aretz, including Yishuv Ha’Aretz, Shemitta, Teruma and Maaser, Peah, Neta Revai, Orla, etc. That isn’t Dechikas HaKetz. Secular Zionists already did that. This is something else.
See the difference?
As I have said to you and somejew in the various threads over the last few weeks, you have yet to actually pinpoint what is actually heretical within in RZ (and by extension Zionism itself. I could very easily do that for you, but I’d like you to actually do so. I have a good idea of what you’re going to point at, and it is most definitely incorrect. On the other hand, what I would point out is actually a problem. But I also have no interest in giving you and your ilk more ammo that you can use to screw up your chances of entering Olam HaEmet. So you’re still just making authoritarian pronouncements in the name of various Rabbonim without elaboration. This also applies vis a vis your attitude toward Modern Orthodoxy.
And again, per my above point, I challenge you to attempt to have a discussion without besmirching or demonizing Orthodox Jews who do not share your views. Meaning, try not calling people heretics or fling accusations of heresy at people willy-nilly for a change. I know it’s hard for someone like you. (And I will again remind you that you and somejew have actually violated multiple issurim surrounding Zilzul Talmidei Chachonim.)
I asked you to define Mesorah as a term. Your answer is definitely *not* the definition of Mesorah. Try again.
*Unlike in “Modern Orthodoxy, where rabbis are consulted only for what the laymen consider to be “halakhic” questions, in actual Judaism, we have a concept called mesorah. We also have an obligation to “make for yourself a rav” who follows that mesorah. So, when in doubt, particularly when dealing with severe prohibitions like this, one is obligated to ask a competent Rav.”
Define Mesorah. That word does not mean what you think it does.
@HaKatan – Please define Mesorah for all of us so-called “ignorant laymen”.
@Simcha613 – Give it a rest. They’ll never see things your way.
@AAQ – There are maybe 1-2 Dati generals in the IDF and this is a major problem. Datiim usually see their active duty military careers dead-end at Lieutnant Colonel (they usually reach General in reserve duty only). The Ramatkal is certainly Chiloni LeMehadrin and intends to stay that way. That is a major problem, and is why there are so many generals who came out as leftists once they left the army and joined politics. It’s something the RZ community has been trying to change for years, but they need the Charedi community’s help changing that. That can only happen if Charedim enlist and help force the change.
@ujm – Joseph, you really couldn’t just say what you meant, rather than framing it within a context rife with criticism? Hogwash. You needed to take your potshot at the MO community.
@somejewiknow – Go read some American Jewish History books to learn about the realities of being Jewish in the USA during the first half of the 20th century. Sarna comes to mind in particular. If you don’t want to do that, at least read R’ Berel Wein. Or even read R’ Rakeffet’s biography of the Rav Soloveitchik.
@HaKatan – Are you capable of not mentioning Zionism for more than 30 seconds? Also, there is a huge gulf between the philosophy of Rav Soloveitchik and that of the man you and somejewiknow have essentially dubbed Voldemort or Acher. Anyone familiar with either Rav’s writings knows as such.@AAQ – I have it on good authority (first-hand knowledge and from a reliable source) that NCYI’s offical policy does not allow non-Orthodox Jews to be members – especially Mechalalei Shabbos BeFarhesiya such as those who drive to Shul. On the other hand, TTBOMK – and I haven’t heard anything to the contrary – the OU does allow such individuals to be members of Shuls part of the OU. The question is whether somejewiknow would prefer that non-Orthodox individuals go to Conservative or Reform institutions just so NCYI is “frum enough” (parenthetically, this goes for the OU as well).
As an aside: What I disagree with in this thread (and in the threads about Zionism, the IDF, etc.) is the blatant disrespect and character assassination the Chassidish and Yeshivish communities continue to engage in vis a vis MO and RZ communities and their Rabbonim. This thread is a prime example. Why is it that the MO and RZ communities are capable of showing respect to the Charedi community and their Rabbonim (depsite deeply disagreeing on a great number of issues), but the Charedi commnunity is completely and utterly incapable of showing that same respect in turn?
If you want to discuss criticise MO philosophy, there is a way to do that without having to engage in character assasination and disrespect.
Full disclosure: I don’t care for MO or YU.
That being said, the OP is a load of hogwash, and that is an understatement.
Are you implying Rav Soloveitchik was responsible for the Conservative movement? Because that is exactly what you just implied, and that isn’t the case.
At least go read a biography of Rav Soloveitchik by someone who isn’t an Agudist or read some authoritative American Jewish History books before speaking.