ZSK

AAQ’s response is the best.

Definitely do not send your daughter to EY to seminary.

Source: Partially from having witnessed many, many public displays of bad behavior on the part of seminary girls in EY, and mostly based on Mrs. ZSK’s knowledge of how seminaries work, her experience, and her friends’ experiences.

HaKatan:

1) It’s fine. Do learn some Arabic. If not, read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya with a reliable translation. The Arabic and Hebrew are slightly different and the context and position of the Oaths therein, as well as their use, is important. It’s not pratical Halacha there, it’s a rhetorical device. The Qafih (Hebrew) edition is best.

2) I didn’t question whether the various authorities quote them. That was never a doubt.

3) For the millionth and final time, I questioned: (a) the practical Halachik applicability of the Oaths, considering (1) Halachik methodologies and approaches to Halacha vs. Aggada, (2) the context of Ashkenaz vs. Sephard, Edot HaMizrach and Teimanim and (3) the very different reality we live in where there is a Jewish state in existence as opposed to the past where this wasn’t even our ancestors’ foggiest dreams; (b) R Teitelbaum’s authority to issue his ruling considering the factured state of Halacha and our (Jewish) legal system, and (c) the supposedly binding nature of such ruling outside his community.

You’d be surprised to learn that you and I probably agree on more than we disagree. Which is the case with most Charedim, Datiim and MO.

1) Risaala Al-Yemeniyya is Iggeret Teiman, not Dalalat Al-Hai’irin – aka Moreh Nevuchim. Go learn Arabic. And yes, Rambam’s opinion does in fact matter, because you keep on invoking Rambam to back your case, when that simply isn’t so.

As for other Poskim, it may be the Ashkenazi position that the rulings of previous leaders must be taken into account. But it is just that, an Ashkenazi position and tendency. It is not a Sephardic position at all, nor it is an absolute amongst Ashkenazim. In fact, because there is no Sanhedrin and more often than not there is no central bais din in any given city, no Rav has binding authority. Therefore, we can respectfully question and reject a previous court’s ruling with justifiable reason for doing so. If you bothered to read that acutal works of the Rambam (and Ri Megash, and the Rif) you keep on trying to use to back your case, you would know this.

Which leads to my next point.

2) Re Aggadeta. This actually matters, but you’re not listening so we’re done here.

3) You’re not listening again. I’m saying that R Teitelbaum did not have any binding authority over anyone other than his community. Period. End of discussion. He did not. No one recognized him as having any binding authority outside of his direct followers and those who joined his “Chassidus” in the wake of the Holocaust after their religious communities were annihilated by the Nazis YMSV”Z. He didn’t even have binding authority within his city of residence, much less in Hungary, Eastern Europe, Ashkenaz or all of Am Yisrael.

Kindly stop with the nonsense that a R Teitelbaum had absolute authority over all of Am Yisrael to issue his ruling when he did not.

So ujm, you intend to call anyone else a non-Jew or is it just me? You might as well do so now and tell us all how many of us who support the State of Israel aren’t Jewish according to you.

You digging in your heels on your accusation shows that either my subsequent post saying you’re a troll and possibly not Yeshivish is true, or that I am a bit to close to the mark for your comfort regarding your real life beliefs about your fellow Jews.

I will point out that you haven’t denied the hatred in question here.

I will also point out that I never said Golus ended – it hasn’t and that’s obvious. Whether we are currently in אתחלתא דגאולה or עיקבתא דמשיחא is another matter, one you and I will clearly disagree about עד ביאת גואל, may he come within the next few weeks.

“I don’t understand why these Zionist idolaters continue to insist they are right and making silly claims like the Satmar Rav does not pasken for all of Jewry and the like.”

Because you don’t understand or know how Rabbinic authority works post-Bavli. That is patently obvious from your responses.

“The Satmar Rav was not the one who invented the oaths and their halachic applicability. But he does bring down numerous poskim through the ages, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO the Rambam, who invoked them as halachically binding. The midrash indicates that the oaths were the reason or the unimaginable ocean of Jewish blood spilled in response to Ben Koziva’s rebellion in Beisar. And on and on and on. Even the famous supposed quote from the Or Sameach that the Zionists love to distort (as mentioned above), clearly indicates that the oaths are halacha. Period. Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara.”

Go read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya in Arabic with Mori Qafih’s translation into Hebrew already. Learn Arabic. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

@YYA – Yes, all that is true. Ujm, HaKatan and Somejew have never experienced any of this (which I suspect you and I regularly interact with, since we both actually live in Israel).

Ujm/Joseph is absolutely a pyromaniac type troll (see his thread about reparations to slave owners as an example of that), but I still felt it necessary to respond to a claim that I’m somehow not Halachically Jewish when I can B”H document my family back at least 250-275 hundred years, which is more thoroughly than some of the frummest descendants of holocaust survivors, who most unfortuntately cannot trace their families back more than 3-4 generations.

Most people’s actions and statements in real life are very different from online. It’s very easy to hide behind a pseudonym.

Ujm hates Eretz Yisrael, his fellow Bnei Yisrael and especially the RZ Tzibbur.

Nothing new here.

@HaKatan:

Nice job trying to pull DARVO (“deny, attack, reverse victim and offender” for the ignorant). You’re not getting away with it.

You are on record consistently and constantly denigrating the RZ community and flipping accusations of heresy. Your statements are literally all over this forum and you know it. If the mods allowed screenshots and links, I’d just post them all. They are even within this thread. Don’t deny it.

If you haven’t gotten my point or understood anything I’ve posted, how I’ve consistently questioned and taken apart the various things you – and somejewiknow – have posted to defend your position – in extreme detail, I might add, you’ll never get it. All your present response definitively demonstrates is just how unlettered, closed-minded and unwilling to be educated you are.

Improve your reading comprehension, go back through my reponses to you, learn something and bother to internalize what I’ve written.

Regardless, you are absolutely and indubitably wrong, there is no doubt about that.

@ujm – If you think the RZ community believes any of that, you’re as guilty as HaKatan.

No, I have not added any such heresy. Rabbonim are not gods, they certainly are not HKB”H Himself, although you may think they are like the Pope (certainly Chassidim behave as such). I’ve responded to you repeatedly, but like usual, either you’re acting in bad faith or your reading comprehension level is considerably lower than I thought, even for an Appalachian Transcarpathian like yourself. To clarify again, because I’m not going to let you claim שתיקה כהודאה:

1) Charedim have deified Rabbis (see Artscroll hagiographies as blatant examples of that) to the point of the Charedi community replacing the Torah with something else entirely, that being Rabbinic edict and deification of Rabbonim, which beyond being legally unacceptable by Halakhic standards (an actual Bais Din is required for a Gezera or Takana, not what currently occurs in Israel or the Aguda, and certainly not what gets slapped on Pashkevilim) (2) more often than not is not guided by Rabbonim, but by bad actors – also known as Askanim – who provide partial or false information for their own personal gain. This is a known thing, and it is unfortunately only the Charedim who don’t see it or the harm it brings. I lament this state of affairs where I am forced to question what Rabbonim say because it’s simply unconscionable that Rabbonim would actually sign or utter such things; the fact that you don’t get that is very telling.

Sinas Yisrael is partially what Yankel Berel said – מפקיר דמם של ישראל, which you are guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is accusing an entire community of essentially being an עיר הנדחת, which beyond being completely and utterly false, is acccusing a community of acting in a manner liable for capital punishment, which you’re also guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is taking every single government handout possible and giving nothing material in return, such as paying taxes and working rather than using תורתינו הקדושה כקרדום לחפור בו. Sinas Yisrael is saying “Your children have to die protecting me, but my children will not die protecting you and yours”.

On the other hand, Sinas Yisrael is not expecting the Charedi community to pull its weight. Do I need to quote Moshe Rabbeinu’s statement to Reuven, Gan and half of Menashe to you? Only Chilonim want to shut down Yeshivos. The RZ community absolutely does not want that, and you declaring such is מוציא שם רע, מוציא לעז, רכילות and לשון הרע, and there certainly is no תועלת in such. What the RZ community wants is for the Charedi community to stop the התנשאות והתנהגות של גאווה toward everyone else and show they actually care. Without minimizing what the Charedi community has done during the last war, more needed to be done, and that more is specifically serving in the army and giving the RZ community a chance to rest.

Again, I have never said the IDF is perfect. However, the IDF has tried gone far out of its way to create frameworks for Charedim to stay Charedi in the army. The army lets people skip early morning lineups to daven, they bring in Rabbonim to speak (which Chilonim freak out about for no reason other than their total ignorance and שנאת תורה הקדושה), there is maximum effort to meet Kashrus standards. Meanwhile, it’s patently obvious that anyone Charedi who goes OTD while in the army already wanted to do so and is using the IDF as an excuse. But of course, you’ll just use the No True Scotsman fallacy to declare any Charedi person who has served to not truly be Charedi.

Lastly, for the millionth time: RZ does not worship the State as an idol. Period. The fact that you can’t see that reflects entirely on you.

HaKatan: “HaTorah haZo lo sihei muchlefes.” You did that with the Rabbonim you worship like Catholics worship G-d via the Pope, also known as “Gadolatry”.

I am also not going to take it up with Rabbonim who died nearly 100 years ago. I will, however, take umbrage with you, who is a Sonei Yisrael and deserve to be treated as such.

Yankel: “the RZ tell their rabanim what to say”. That’s unfair. The same could be said about Charedi Rabbonim who sign whatever Askanim place before them (yes, that actually happens).

HaKatan:

Again:

1) R’ Teitelbaum did not have binding judicial authority outside his own community. He certainly did not have such authority in his own country of origin. He did not have that binding authority anywhere else in Europe, certainly nowhere in the Middle East and North Africa. He was one opinion. You clearly do not understand that simple fact, just like you don’t understand how judicial authority is supposed to work within Judaism as a whole, the non-binding nature of moder practice and what we call Minhag (which isn’t actually Minhag), the fact that there has been no true binding judicial authority since the Bavli, and the fact that there are major differences between Ashkenazi and Sephardim with regard to following legal precedent. Hint: Ashkenazim tend to demand it, Sephardim do not. It is not a violation of Halacha to say, “with all due respect to the prior court, we’re ruling differently for xyz reason”. So your Halacha LiMaaseh argument is void.

2) Whether your utterly pathetic self likes it or not, Aggadeta such as that in Shir Hashirim cannot be used for pesak Halacha. Period. End of discussion. They are an Asmachta at most, which makes the oaths possibly Dinim Muflaim, Rabbinic Laws that can be overturned. Your claim otherwise is also void.

3) You are wrong vis-a-vis Risaala Al-Yemeniyya, notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary. Understand: You don’t know what you’re talking about. If you bothered to read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya in the original Arabic (like I have), or a reputable Hebrew translation from someone such as a member of the Qafih family, instead of whatever biased, Ashkenazi half-translation you read, you would know that Rambam does not issue any sort of halachic ruling with regard to the so-called “oaths” and that the precise context of these “oaths” is encouraging Yemeni Jewry to stand strong in the face of pressure to convert or face violence/death. The only halachic material is laying out how to determine if someone is a false Messiah. The oaths are a rhetorical device. That’s it. You’re wrong and you wearing a fedora, kopek, streimel or whatever headgear you want will not cover up that fundamental misunderstanding.

In the end, we don’t have to listen to anything R’ Teitelbaum said. It’s really that simple. You can kick, scream and name call all you want. It’s pathetic at this point, and you’re not changing minds.

You also will answer HKB”H for slandering an entire community after 120.

ujm – That is not your business.

There is something seriously wrong with you, HaKatan and somejewiknow.

@somejew – First of all, please provide the Hebrew original.

Second, the objections are the same tired objections the Charedi world expresses every 30 seconds, which are not going to change without Charedim enlisting en-masse and forcing the change they want. They have nothing to do with your favorite bogey-man, Zionism.

@ujm – Zionism has nothing to do with this, Joe. See above.

@somejewiknow – I wasn’t talking about R’ Teitelbaum. That leaves exactly three people I could be referring to.

Yaakov Yosef – Yes, we don’t fit perfectly into the boxes, and Israelis definitely don’t fit the checkboxes they claim to. It’s also why so many Anglos tend to eventually start their own Shuls and institutions – because of not totally fitting into mainstream Israeli society.

ujm – No. It wasn’t an excellent point. It was stupid, but definitely what could be expected from an Appalachian Transcarpathian.

@somejewiknow – In that case, you have absolutely no right to state your opinion about Satmar, Vayoel Moshe, etc.

To answer the question directly, I do live in EY. Proudly so.

And I have my criticisms of the State, but those specific criticisms are only shared privately with those living in Israel. Not with those living in Chu”l.

This is pure idiocy and ignorance. Or to quote Ramban: אין טעם ואין ריח.

Let me set the record somewhat straight before the resident Appalachian Transcarpathians weigh in.

1) First of all, the OP vastly overestimates the willingness to fund independent Kashrut organizations and the necessary (expensive) infrastructure. Even Tzohar, in addition to its fundraising, depends to a certain degree upon Rav Stav’s position as the Rav of the city of Shoham, affiliated Rabbis’ positions within the Rabbanut and the Rabbanut Kashrus infrastructure. Let me be clear: I am not attacking Rav Stav or Tzohar. Whether the OP and folks here like it or not, Tzohar has become a legit alternative to the Rabbanut and Misrad HaDatot.

2) There is the Rabbanut and there is the Misrad HaDatot. They are two different, albeit connected entities. The Rabbanut is under the Misrad HaDatot. That was how you ended up with the bizarre situation of a minister threatening the tenure of a Chief Rabbi.

3) The Misrad HaDatot is a government ministry that is corrupt and full of Shas and Agudist lackeys. That corruption was how you ended up with the totally preventable situation about 10-15 years ago where the Petach Tikva Beis Din decided (brainlessly) to reject a completely legit conversion done in the USA and thereafter experienced massive blowback from American Orthodox Jewry, from LWMO to Charedim. Rav David Lau warned the court of blowback on both politcal and halachic grounds, but the Shas and Agudist lackeys decided they knew better and got egg on their faces as a result. From the perspective of both an American and an Israeli, it was incredibly embarassing.

The reason why so many Chilonim hate the Rabbanut is because of the Misrad HaDatot, not the Rabbanut in of itself. The Misrad HaDatot dictates – before marriage – who the bride and groom are to learn Hilchos Nidda from. Outside Yishuvim and DL majority areas, they are usually Charedi individuals who should not be teaching Chilonim. Yes, Chilonim are hostile to the idea of learning Hilchos Niddah and they come in with a massive chip on their shoulder, which they should not do. Charedim do not help, considering their inability to reach Chilonim in any meaningful manner.

The only reasonable employees at the Misrad HaDatot are those who are not Charedi. I know this first hand. Upon Aliyah, it was a Charedi clerk who wanted to declare our Ketubah invalid on grounds of “not liking” wording. The wording was the standard American. It was his DL supervisor who first berated the clerk (he recognized my Rav’s name on the marriage certificate), made the clerk call my Rav early in the morning in the USA – while I was in the office, and ask his question. My Rav’s response was, “You call me to verify other Rabbonim. You’re questioning a wedding I performed?”. Even Charedim don’t want to interact with Charedim at the Misrad HaDatot.

4) There is the Rabbanut itself. It is a government office, but its purpose is to maintain a specific level of Orthodox Judaism that is more or less acceptable to all. It intersects with the average Israeli at major points in life such as birth, bris milah, marriage/divorce and death. For the most part it does what it is supposed to do. They try their best, but they are hamstrung by both the secular legal and political system and Charedi politics and policy.

5) Kashrus: The Rabbanut does all the work and is minimally the equivalent of the OU. Charedi hechsherim show up, check one set of lungs (not enough to verify for Kashrus purposes), look at a few ingredients, then leave. The hechsherim are worthless. It’s similar to how the OU does the overwhelming majority of the work in the USA, and the Charedim just piggyback again and do a worthless, cursory check. Charedim might as well rely on the OU and the Rabbanut.

6) If the OP thinks abolishing the Rabbanut will end the things he would like to see disappear, he is blind. Chilonim will just consider it a victory and then try to ban funding to both Charedi and DL Yeshivot and other institutions.

If you’re considering Aliyah, do so intelligently and plan carefully. But definitely do so.

Well, they are, especially a certain housing minister.

Anyone who reads the Hebrew language press knows this.

@AAQ – I have no idea, but I suspect not. Certainly there was nothing of the sort when I was in school in the 90s-2000s.

That’s an interesting statement by RJBS – and I agree with it. I’ve said before that there are far too many people with Semicha who shouldn’t be allowed within 10 feet of a Shulchan Aruch.

HaKatan

Hold up, boy-o.

You said:
“Every form of Zionism believes in at least two things:
1. Judaism is a Nationality, not (only) a religion, and Zionism is the current manifestation of that Nationality.
2. The Zionist “State” is the Nation-State of that religion.”

First of all, I am guessing your overly reduced point is: Zionism believes Judaism is a nationality only and the State is the Nation-State of that secularist entity. If that’s your point, you’ve stated it very poorly to say the least.

If that isn’t your point and that you think Judaism is not a nationality and is instead something else, please spell out exactly what sort of group you think Jews are, if we are not a nation and ergo by definition a nationality. Nations have a unique language, culture, religion, writing system, etc. We have these things. These are the things that separated us from the Egyptians, as pointed out by Rashi. Do you deny this?

If so, please confirm you believe that term “Am Yisrael” is a misnomer, and that the term “Am” – that appears hundreds of times within the Chumash alone, is incorrect. Please also confirm you believe the phrase in Parshas Yisro – “Mamleches Kohanim ve-Goy kadosh”, as well as the phrases in Ve’eschanan – “Am chacham venavon” and “Goy gadol”- are not true and that we’re followers of one religion like Islam, Hinduism, or the followers of the so-called carpenter, rather than what we are – a nation and a rather obvious ethnoreligious group.

@ujm –

There are at least 80 Hesder Yeshivot with permanent Kollelim. They are army yeshivot, and receive money from the IDF/Israeli government. So no, the IDF (and by extension the Israeli government) does not devalue Torah Study. Quite the opposite, actually.

To be sure, there are certainly things in the IDF that should be less priority (some of the things you mentioned) – but you have those things when there is an ideologically secularist upper echelon.

As for Charedim being the only ones significantly engaged in Torah Study in a permanent manner – again, you’re a pathetic liar. And I can easily argue that Charedim are not any more engaged in Torah Study than the RZ sector is (something that is blindingly obvious to anyone who has lived in or adjacent to Charedi enclaves for any extended period of time).

The excuses you’ve provided are pathetic. RZ soldiers are attending Shiurim in between rounds of fighting in Gaza and Lebanon. The photos of soldiers’ notebooks full of Torah have been shown all over the place in Jewish media, as have photos of those Shiurim.

You’re wrong, hopelessly ignorant and completely unlettered.

@AAQ – He wouldn’t accept a test to determine exemptions – because it would have been developed (and possibly administered) by Zionists, which by definition is a no-go in his book. Even if the Gedolim created such a test, he would reject it on the grounds that the Gedolim caved to the Zionists – and they are therefore not Geolim anymore. To ujm and his ilk, there is no situation where anyone may have anything to do with the State unless it is to take money.

@somejewiknow –

3 brief points (I’m done arguing with you):

1) It is patently false that you have not rejected one Sefer. You’ve rejected anything that is authored by an individual who supports Zionism, Chibat Tzion, Chovevei Tzion, Mizrachi, HaPoel Mizrachi, etc. That means you’ve rejected works by: 1) Rav Reines; 2) Rav Alkalai; 3) Rav Kalischer; 4) Rav Teichtal; 5) Rav Kook; 6) Rav Soloveitchik; 7) Rav Yeshayahu Shapira (Brother of the Piacezna Rebbe); 8) Rav Aviner – These are all Rabbonim who backed Zionism to varying degrees and/or have works supporting such (I’m not sure about Piacezna’s brother). The last one wrote a work that is a direct challenge to Vayoel Moshe.

2) You absolutely are using the no true scotsman fallacy. To you, no true Rav/Gadol could possibly be a Zionist, therefore any pro-Zionist work is heresy or a forgery and its author is a heretic. Which is why you reject all the Rabbonim above and their works (and in some cases, actions).

3) I don’t think anyone here rejects the sources used by the SR, or the sources in general. It is a rejection of the methodology used – You cannot rule Halacha based on Aggada. Because R’ Teitelbaum founded his entire Magnum Opus upon Aggada, it contains a fundamental error impeaches its authority. Its conclusions can be questioned.