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What @Ari Knobler said is true.
This is just plain slander and laughably untrue. For this to be true, thousands would have to be going OTD every year and that just is not true by any stretch of the imagination. The RZ Tzibbur would literally be unable to run a Shul or minyan if this were true, much less the 80 thriving Yeshivot Hesder and the numerous Pre-Army Mechinot.
It is as I have said: Those who go OTD in the Army by and large are those who were looking for an excuse to do so.
This is my final post here for a while because this is admittedly a pointless argument and one I am no longer willing to engage in.
This is not an opinion. From a stricly legal persepctive, the draft is completely legal.
The 1949 Defense Service Law, which predates the now unconstitutional 2002 Tal Law (and by extension the Torato Umanuto Arrangement) by at least 50 years, requires military service of all Israelis. It does not differentiate between Charedim and everyone else. Yes, there was an “agreement/arragement” not to draft Charedim, but an agreement not ensconced in binding law passed by the Knesset is quite frankly worthless. This is the case right now. There is no permanent legislation granting Charedim full, permanent exemption from the IDF service.
From the law on the Knesset website:
“In this Law-
“defence service” means
(a) service in the Regular Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: ‘regular service”);
(b) service in the Reserve Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: reserve service”);
“ordinary resident” means a person whose ordinary place of residence within the territory in which the law of the State of Israel applies;
“person of military age” means an ordinary resident of an age as specified hereunder:
“(a) in the case of a male person – any age from eighteen to forty-nine years inclusive;
(b) in the case of a female person- any age from eighteen to thirty-four years inclusive.The exemptions are:
(1) the mother of a child;
(2) a pregnant woman.
(c) A married woman shall be exempt from the obligations of regular service.
(d) A female person of military age who has declared that reasons of conscience or religious conviction prevent her from serving on defence service, shall, in such manner as shall be prescribed by regulations, be exempted from the obligations of defence service”.The punishment for draft-dodging, per the law is, “imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine not exceeding six hundred pounds or to both such penalties”.
Thus, Charedim are not exempt from service. Yeshiva students are not exempt from service. Hesderniks are not exempt. By law, the only groups with valid exemptions are those with medical conditions (including psychological and psychiatric), Olim and women (Sections 11 and 6 of the law). Based on this law which does in fact remain in effect, IDF service enforcement is not kidnapping. It is arresting those in violation of the law and those violators should be required to serve or produce a valid exemption in order to not serve.
Now, as for the so-called Tal Law: That law was declared discriminatory in 2005/2006, again in 2012 and most recently in 2017, whereupon it was essentially declared unconstitutional. It is a piece of legislation no longer relevant despite what you and I think about the HCJ and their technical ability to declare laws unconstitutional.
There isn’t much else to say about this.
Be well.
@YYA:
1) Are you referrring to the deleted thread about Artscroll’s nasty and uncalled for hatchet job of Hakham Faur? That thread had nothing to do with “Haskhafos of Conservative Judaism” and was about Artscroll’s tendency to call a hagiography a biography, when those are decidedly not the same thing in the slightest. It was also moving away from that hatchet job to Sephardic approaches to Halacha and Aggada, a very tame subject.
(BTW, if you think I’m an OTD Chossid, you’re very far removed from the truth. The correct label would be “Frum without any Mishugassen or idiotic Chumros whatsoever”. I also have zero connection to the Chassidish world.)2) This is true, but I admittedly don’t read the threads about Chabad. I do not believe I have ever been disrespectful vis a vis Satmar. I do wonder if you’re offended by the use of “Shem Resha’im Yirkav” in connection with Rav Kook ZT”L, something somejewiknow used to routinely do until I asked the mods to stop him – which they did, or if your objection only applies to Charedi Rabbonim.
3) This should not have happened, but we all know that the resident notorious troll started all this by questioning my Yichus – an idiotic thing to do – and those threads were largely in response to that. You yourself called out that individual.
4) I don’t disagree that this is wrong and those threads should have been deleted.
One more thing: This is the internet, you cannot easily control what is posted and what isn’t.
And like Smerel, I’m done here for now. There are far too many Sonei Yisrael from the Charedi Tzibbur here who would rather hate on their Dati Leumi and Modern Orthodox brethren than do anything else.
Chiefshmerel provided reliable sources. Newspapers are considered reliable historical sources. Anyone who has taken a history class and done any basic level of historical research knows that. You just don’t like the source because (1) it disputes your incredibly subjectve view of history and (2) the source is not Rabbinic.
@AAQ:
My point is that these arguments are irrelevant.
Sorry, real life interfered.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ. I never disagreed about that.
That being said, you, YYA and I are on opposites of the IDF issue and will not agree. My stance is still that Charedim should serve in the IDF and it is not going to change.
The rabid anti-Zionists here unfortunately do not possess reading comprehension skills. One only needs to read through recent threads concerning Israel, Zionism etc. over the last few months to half-year to see that they do not respond in a material manner when questioned. In particular, despite Yankel and and myself being on opposite sides of the Charedi draft issue, both of us have questioned them on the same grounds repeatedly with no material response. YYA has done so as well.
It doesn’t matter if it was questioning the applicability of the three oaths on Halachic grounds; respectfully questioning the applicability of Vayoel Moshe and such a work having any binding authority upon anyone outside the Rabbinic jurisdiction of its author; respectuflly yet forcefully showing how the RZ Tzibbur is very different from secularist Zionism; and even calling out divisive, bombastic rhetoric 2 days before Tisha B’Av as well as recent threads with bombastic titles for no reason other than to be rude and offensive.
The response has been the same. They repeatedly reference the same three Rabbonim, insist that any works which imply some support for Zionism on any level are intentionally being misinterpreted and misunderstood by their disputants, use Halacha as an excuse for a total lack of Middos, much less basic politeness, and ignore anything they disagree with or cannot respond to.
They also are quite frankly the Yeshivish/Chassidish equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills, meaning that vis a vis Zionism, they are continuing to fight a nearly century old battle now irrelevant. They should be looking at the far more insidious, underlying issue at hand – ideological secularism (a century ago this took the form of Zionism and communism, it is now currently in the form of progressivism and militant antitheism), and joining the RZ Tzibbur in combating that issue which concerns Orthodox Judaism in all its stripes.
Very succinctly:
1) No, there is no plan for that. Obviously. Why? Because:
a) Our politicians – including Charedim I will add – are interested in staying in power over anything else.
b) Having large families is considered to be a choice.
c) The government has a tendeny to kick issues not viewed as essential further along down the road to be dealt with at a later time.2) Because “sharing the burden” is limited to the IDF, not maintaining a Jewish majority, democracy or anything else.
My questions for you are:
1) What you sort of recognition do you want the Charedi public to receive for making what is largely perceived to be a life choice. A medal? Blanket military exemptions? Eternal public funding? Free housing, electricity, etc.? The exclusive right to rule?
2) What’s your plan? Expel anyone who can’t produce a shtar yuchsin?@YYA: It may be that Machzor. I don’t have the source on hand – I borrowed it several years ago. It was a book published by Machon Masores Ashkenaz (they’re very reliable when it comes to tracing anything Yekkish or Nusach Ashkenaz) about Yeshivos in Germany. I seem to recall the same source noting that the local Shul in Padua where Ramchal davened was Yekkish.
The Machzor bears the hallmarks of Yekkish Nusach Ashkenaz, particularly “וישמחו ה׳ אוהבי שמך” right before the closing of the Kiddushas HaYom bracha in both the Shmoneh Esrei for Shabbos and and the one for Chagim. No other Ashkenazi Siddurim have it, they all use “וינחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” for Shabbos and “וישמחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” on the 3 Regalim. The only other Siddur such phraseology appears in is Baladi Teimani Siddurim and it’s one of a great number of overlaps between Baladi and Yekkish Siddurim.
And again, I will point out that there are Italian Ashkenazim who can trace their families back hundreds of years. Their Nusach is essentially Yekkish and this was confimed more than once by an Italian Ashkenazi living in Italy.
Re the rest of your post: I know how Minhag HaMakom works as well as why it doesn’t really work in EY.
@IzoBar: HaKatan doesn’t actually have a response about which other oaths are being referred to, if not the three in question.
“The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.”
I’m clearly remembering incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.
“Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.”
Re Teimanim: You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach. I’m well aware that Teimanim are not “Sephardim” in the Spanish-expulsion sense and where their philosophical tradition comes from.
It may be that the study of philosophy dropped after 1492, but it certainly did not disappear to the degree you imply.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ overstepping its authority. That’s part of what the judicial reforms were supposed to address. We have a certain Aharon Barak to thank for starting this mess back in the 1980s-1990s, as well as the current AG, Yair Lapid, etc. for perpetuating it.
I believe the government should have enforced the Tal Law more than it did. A lot of these issues could have been solved if they did so – and if certain groups within the Charedi Tzibbur kept cooler heads.
A counter point that is important: The Charedi leadership has for many years prevented non-fulltime learners from enlisting through various means, but especially through social pressure and shidduchim. That has to change.
I still believe Charedim should serve in some capacity, whether it’s IDF service or national civil service.
Like I said to YYA, we’re not going to agree on this issue. That being said, the problems and issues at hand are not lost on me.
YYA:
“Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim”.This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
But generally, it is correct that Italians are neither Ashkenaz or Sepharad.
UJM:
The term for such in Hebrew is “להשתכנז”, it is not a positive phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with supposed help from the “Ashkenazi Torah world”. It’s more trying to fit in with the outside culture than anything else.@YYA – Truth be told, and I don’t live under a rock, but outside of Chozrim BeTeshuva, Sephardim joining any sect of Chassidus is a rarety unless the surrounding community is Chassidish.
The Sephardim I associate with and have been to exposed to are very proud of their Sephardic Masoret, particularly the one from Andalucia and don’t care for Chassidus or any of its trappings. And this is from a wide range of individuals – from RZ to Sephardic Charedi, even what would be called “traditional”. Thus, aside for a few Sephardim I recently have interacted who were Chabad, I dont interact with Sephardim who are Chassidish. The very idea strikes me as odd, even though it admittedly really shouldn’t, especially in Israel. (Parenthetically, I’ve obviously heard of Amnon Yitzhak and Shalom Arush, Sephardim who went Breslov.)
I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
@YYA:
What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus. Chassidus isn’t even on the radar.
That was my intent, not actual separation.
Also, just a note: Ramchal was Yekkish, not Sephardic.
As for whoever said there are no Sephardic Aḥaronim – well that’s just wrong. Like YYA said, you just haven’t heard of them.
@AAQ: Don’t bring up that thread, this one may be deleted like that one was.
You should have given it a different name then.
@YYA – Yeah, I know. I suspect that either something is glitchy with the website or the response was blocked completely.
The general gist of it was what I’ve been saying all along:
– Charedim should serve and I don’t think the reasons provided are good enough. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the issue. That being said, that does not change the fact that there are very serious problems within the IDF – problems I have never denied the existence of or denied that they are problems in need of change.
– The inflexiblity of the government, HCJ and Charedi leadership bear the blame for the situation. At the moment, the HCJ and AG are generally speaking the biggest problem other than the IDF’s insitutional biases that require fundamental change. To a certain degree I believe Charedi leadership bears some blame due to inflexibility – but I understand their side perfectly well.
– The government – and in particular people like Yair Lapid and Merav Michaeli – is its own worst enemy when it comes to drafting Charedim. Every time there is a trend toward serving, some anti-religious ideologue has to open his/her mouth or try to pass a law forcing the issue when quietly letting Charedi society start serving on their own is the right move.
– The battle over Charedim being drafted should not be happening in the middle of a war.
– There will need to be difficult compromises made by all parties for anything to change in a meaningful manner.
– RZ isn’t the problem and was never the problem, contrary to certain individuals arguing the contrary. Ideological secularism is, whether it takes the form of Zionism, progressivism, communism, leftist authoritarianism, etc.
– The issue of preserving a Jewish majority is an issue that needs to be confronted.
BTW, the term “Chardakim” is gross.
@YYA – I responded to you and Yankel but the mods appear to have blocked the post. I’m not really sure why.
Suffice it to say that I partially disagree and partially agree.
Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
@YYA:
“HaKatan – It is the ברית בין הבתרים that bothers the Gentiles. They don’t know or care about the difference between Satmar and Lubavitch, between Brisk and Har HaMor, between Ponevizh and Ponevizh, between Reb Arelach and Tzohar, or between you, me, ‘Square Root’, and ‘AAQ’. We are all Zhidden and fair game for murder ר״ל. The ideological flavor of the month (of the Goyim, or the confused Jews) makes no difference. Zionism was the second to most recent, and one of the most thorough, attempts by ערב רב to reject the Jewish end of the ברית בין הבתרים, and Hashem activated the Goyish end of the ברית בין הבתרים with devastating results. The most recent such attempt is post-Zionism/Progressivism, and Hashem again activated the system on Simchas Torah 5784. What WE have to do is תשובה תפלה וצדקה, and to help more Yidden do the same. Not deluding ourselves that the ‘only’ problem is Zionism, (and therefore we are OK, because we don’t like Zionism…)”This is completely right.
Hamikaten:
“It is Zionism that bothers the gentiles, not Judaism. The gentiles know the dirty secret that the Zionists are invaders who represent only themselves and not Jews, even if they publicly play along that the Zionist paradise is “Jewish”. They don’t see Jews as Nazis, but rather the Zionists, again, of course. Et al.”This is wrong and you know it.
It appears my response to HaKatan was banned by the mods.
Suffice it to say that HaKatan is once again lying and misrepresenting the RZ Tzibbur per usual.
Contrary to what he claims, is in fact looking to judge anyone he possibly can in the worst possible light.
And like I said in that post – “J’accuse”. And I mean it. (If you don’t what that means, go look up what it means in the context of Judenhasse.)
I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it. IDF service is a government policy and legal issue. Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns then.
I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw. They can serve.
@HaKatan – Don’t be intentionally dense. You know exactly what he means.
NOYB, catch yourself and besalel are right. We’ve always echoed our surroundings. Older generations may not consider modern Europop, trance, punk-pop, rap or whatever genre to be music, but to the younger generation, it is.
It’s kind of like how my parents’ generation abhors the use of the term “ain’t” while my generation (middle aged Millenials) and younger use the term and think nothing of it.
To make the point:
– Shlock Rock parrots and parodies 60s-90s rock music.
– The song “Yidden” by MBD is a literal rip-off of “Ghenghis Khan” – 70s pop music.
– Miami Boys Choir in its heyday sounded like 80s and 90s pop music.
– Shlomo Carlebach and Diaspora Yeshiva Band sound like 60s and 70s rock music.
– Chazzonus is essentially the Jewish version of the opera.
– Chassidish niggunim are Eastern European folk and drinking songs. To wit: I heard someone use “Korobeiniki”, a morbid Russian love ballad also known as the music in Tetris, for those who have played video games, in davening.
– I witnessed someone use the most recognizable chords of the song “Iron Man” in Hallel.
– One of the most popular tunes for Dror Yikra in the US is “Sloop John B”, as in The Beach Boys.– The Shabbos Zemer “Ka Ribon Olam” – The author – R’ Yisrael Najara – literally wrote it to the tune of an Arab song that was fairly popular or common in the 1500s in what was then Jewish Gaza.
@YYA:
1) No disagreement about the HCJ. We have a certain former Justice Aharon Barak (that is someone that terms such as “Yemach Shemo” and “Shem Reshaim Yirkav” could be used in association with, even though I wish him a long life to 120 years) to thank for that.
2) I was focusing on the legal definition.
3a) That is the Charedi position. That is not the RZ position.
3b) Obviously.
4) I did agree and I don’t deny it.
5) I share your lack of optimism toward the HCJ and IDF compromising. However, I will point out that AAQ is right about something: The IDF should not have to convince Charedim to serve. They should just me showing to serve like everyone else because it is the law.
6) I have no problem with discussing the politics, which absolutely plays a role in this issue. The broad consensus you speak of is within the Charedi community and certain parts of the RZ community. It is not aross the board.
7-8) No disagreement.
9) The IDF doesn’t want נוער הגבעות because the brass doesn’t trust them (they also tend to engage in criminal activity, specifically arson and destruction of property). Regarding everyone else, the games should stop.Just to be clear – again: I disagree with the Charedi Tzibbur on issues associated with the State, but most of those issues (Hallel on Israeli holidays, prayer for the state, IDF, captives/hostages) are relatively minor – with the exception of IDF service (which I have mixed feelings about). But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments no one is accepting outside certain parts of the RZ Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur.
@Yankel: They’re supposedly deferring, but in reality they are deferring until they are too old to serve – which is de facto draft dodging. Let’s be honest, Charedim want a blanket exmeption enshrined in law.@AAQ:
Shas at its core is a social justice party dressed up in Sephardic clothing. It is also decidedly Charedi – or possibly non-Zionist Sephardic, but it is far more focused on social justice issues that Charedi issues.“HaKatan – The wicked Israeli Left (ערב רב) is pushing all kinds of filthy progressive ‘treif alphabet soup’ ideology, as well as kefirah and sometimes avoda zara (‘Bagrut’ points for studying other religions in high school, for example. Did you know about that?). They aborted more Jewish babies than the Nazis killed children in the Holocaust (2,000,000 plus vs. about 1,500,000, so much for them caring about ‘Jewish continuity’). They do all kinds of filthy and wicked things you don’t even know about. But they are so far off that they don’t even believe in ‘Zionism’ any more… So, when you yell about ‘Zionism’, you miss the point. It’s like the whole point of what they are doing is just to try to get you to say ‘Zionism’, and then they trapped your Neshama… Knowing the enemy (and who the real enemy is) is the most critical thing in battle (not trying to plagiarize Sun Tsu). Many, if not most ‘RZ’ people today in Israel, are significantly more ehrlich than the average MO in America. Some RZ are basically Chareidim in different clothing, and with some idealism about building settlements etc. They aren’t Kofrim. Neither are Belz and Vizhnitz and Ger… (Who do take limited money from the Medinah.) The real bad guys (who are dwindling in numbers) don’t even call themselves Zionists. Try Googling ‘Post-Zionism’, or read a little about the ‘Bagatz’ and the ‘Rotschild protests’. Half of what you write is dated and no longer correct, and the other half is correct, but it isn’t ‘Zionism’ any more. Understanding the issues better, and targeting your bullets where they belong, will make your message more effective and less offensive.”
@YYA – יישר כחך. מאה אחוז. Exactly right. The Left in Israel – which is not Zionist (and probably Anti-Zionist at this point in time), ideologically secularist, aggressively anti-religious and fully in lock-step with progressives around the world are the actual problem. Zionism was an issue when the state was founded, it is not an issue today.But HaKatan chooses not to recognize this.
@YYA – You’re likely right. By perpetuating a mostly irrelevant issue and insisting they are on the “right side of history” (for lack of a better term), they are giving themselves carte-blanche to be as nasty and rude as possible.
As it happens, I may harshly criticize the Charedi Tzibbur at large, but it is not out of actual hatred or malice.
@YYA:
1) The Knesset passed a law that everyone, including Charedim, needs to serve. That should be the end of it. The HCJ had no business declaring the law unconstitutional and sending it back to the Knesset for more pointless debate.
2) Per your definition, Charedim do not qualify as “conscientious objectors” since they aren’t opposed to the concept of war. If they were the majority, post-October 7th they would have waged war per Halacha and the war would have ended far sooner. They don’t want to serve on ideological grounds that to the non-Charedi majority boils down to cultural preservation, not opposition to the concept of war.
3) Like you said, the objection is based on והיה מחניך קדוש (Not “Shmad”). I don’t disagree with this and I’ve said so on more than one occasion on this forum. However, I do not consider such a good enough reason for Charedi and RZ men to not serve (women shouldn’t be serving in any combat capacity, period, if at all). I believe and think that rather than constantly threatening to bring down governments and cause elections because the Gerrer Rebbe is specifically trying to prevent his grandson from being drafted, the Charedi leadership should be making real attempts to work with the IDF to make service possible rather than shutting down all attempts with nary a second thought. Compromise is absolutely necessary.
4) It is patently obvious that the entire situation is a problem (putting it very mildly) because the entire government needs fundamental reform – our current AG, the HCJ and the so-called anti-reform protests (actually just expanded “We hate Bibi” protests from the Covid-19 era) – are prime examples of the problem. I don’t believe there is need to undo everything the Knesset and HCJ has done.
5) I have never said that the Charedi lifestyle is easy. My belief: Let Charedi men do basic training, then get jobs and do a week or two of Miluim here and there. The Batei Midrash may empty out to some degree, but those who are actually dedicated to learning and not wasting their time hanging around stores in Bnei Brak (where I lived for 7 years and saw this daily) will remain and should receive a government stipend at a level minimally equal to a freshman MK or Dayan.
6) You’re overlooking the power politics at play here – specifically the power Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold (I read the Hebrew language Charedi press), as well as the power Roshei Yeshiva have when they tell בחורי ישיבה to completely ignore draft notices and not show up to present the relevant paperwork for getting their exemption.
7) The majority of those who go OTD while in the IDF wanted to do so already. IDF service was the way out.
8) Obviously, I disagree with their position. I don’t deny it and have never denied it.
9) As an aside: The draft dodgers in Ramat Aviv Gimmel, Ramat HaSharon, Hod HaSharon, Ramat Efal, etc. who get out of service thanks to their parents bribing psychiatrists to diagnose their kids with mental disorders should be thrown in jail just like Charedim who don’t show up to get their exemptions. And their parents? Prosecute them, fine them and/or put them in jail.
Also: people in חו״ל can have opinions about these issues. Whether they are relevant or not is a different issue altogether.
@YYA – I was mostly making a rhetorical point that the same can be said about the Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim and that Mr. somejewiknow should have never said what he did. He certainly should not have posted it two days before Tisha B’Av.
@AAQ – Yes, exactly.
“you are missing the key point that being zionist is specifically לועג על דברי חכמים.”
This is not true and you know it.
“Claiming that any zionist (especially a RZ galach) brought someone closer to Torah is like claiming the Mitzrim got the Jews to really daven. We cannot possibly know how great the damage being done by every money paid by zionists into otherwise kosher institutions. Nonetheless, we can be certain that we Jews would be better off if they had never started their war against Judaism, and we can be certain that we would be better off if they would disappear today, just as we daven three times a day for their quick peaceful downfall and destruction.”
You posted this two days before Tisha B’Av? And you called RZ Rabbonim a term used for priests? Seriously? You should be ashamed of yourself.
You are literally the reason why we mourn today. It is exactly this unspeakable, implacably obscene hatred that you, ujm and HaKatan has toward the RZ, MO and non-orthodox communities that is the cause of everything.
We’d can be sure we’d be better off if the entire Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim publicly admitted their past positions toward Zionism were a Hora’as sha’ah that are no longer relevant and instead joined the rest of the Orthodox Tzibbur, got jobs, helped the RZ community turn the IDF into something respectable and paid taxes like they are supposed to. We’d also be better off the RZ and MO communities stopped compromising on Orthodox values to please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors, coworkers, colleagues, etc. And we’d be better off if the non-Orthodox communities just admitted they are essentailly bagel flavored progressivism and not attempt to speak for Judaism.
By the way, the position of blaming anything and everything on Zionism and Zionists sounds a lot like the Judenhasse gentiles express toward Am Yisrael.
Ujm: Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.
By the way, if you didn’t respond to the selective service card you received at age 18, you’re a draft dodger by US law, you’ve committed a felony and can be liable for 250,000 USD in fines and possibly jail time.
I have exactly this to say to certain individuals who posted on this thread – you know exactly who you are:
1) וַיֹּצִ֜יאוּ דִּבַּ֤ת הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר תָּר֣וּ אֹתָ֔הּ אֶל־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל לֵאמֹ֑ר הָאָ֡רֶץ אֲשֶׁר֩ עָבַ֨רְנוּ בָ֜הּ לָת֣וּר אֹתָ֗הּ אֶ֣רֶץ אֹכֶ֤לֶת יוֹשְׁבֶ֙יהָ֙ הִ֔וא וְכׇל־הָעָ֛ם אֲשֶׁר־רָאִ֥ינוּ בְתוֹכָ֖הּ אַנְשֵׁ֥י מִדּֽוֹת׃
2) וַיָּמֻ֙תוּ֙ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֔ים מוֹצִאֵ֥י דִבַּת־הָאָ֖רֶץ רָעָ֑ה בַּמַּגֵּפָ֖ה לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃
3) וְלֹא נָתַן ה׳ לָכֶם לֵב לָדַעַת וְעֵינַיִם לִרְאוֹת וְאָזְנַיִם לִשְׁמֹעַ עַד הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
As for this: “the ineffable Rav Shach זצוקללה”ה” – So you’re a heretic, even more so than you claim Zionists and Zionism to be. Only HKB”H Himself and His Divine Name may be referrred to with that term.
“the requirement of every Jew to personally adamantly reject Zionism”
Speak for yourself.
Like I’ve said to HaKatan multiple times: R Teitelbaum did not have binding authority outside his community. Period. Ergo we do not have to listen to his opinion.
Grow up.
AAQ’s response is the best.
Definitely do not send your daughter to EY to seminary.
Source: Partially from having witnessed many, many public displays of bad behavior on the part of seminary girls in EY, and mostly based on Mrs. ZSK’s knowledge of how seminaries work, her experience, and her friends’ experiences.
HaKatan:
1) It’s fine. Do learn some Arabic. If not, read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya with a reliable translation. The Arabic and Hebrew are slightly different and the context and position of the Oaths therein, as well as their use, is important. It’s not pratical Halacha there, it’s a rhetorical device. The Qafih (Hebrew) edition is best.
2) I didn’t question whether the various authorities quote them. That was never a doubt.
3) For the millionth and final time, I questioned: (a) the practical Halachik applicability of the Oaths, considering (1) Halachik methodologies and approaches to Halacha vs. Aggada, (2) the context of Ashkenaz vs. Sephard, Edot HaMizrach and Teimanim and (3) the very different reality we live in where there is a Jewish state in existence as opposed to the past where this wasn’t even our ancestors’ foggiest dreams; (b) R Teitelbaum’s authority to issue his ruling considering the factured state of Halacha and our (Jewish) legal system, and (c) the supposedly binding nature of such ruling outside his community.
You’d be surprised to learn that you and I probably agree on more than we disagree. Which is the case with most Charedim, Datiim and MO.
Ujm:
“Right wing” or “too Jewish” has nothing to do with my reaction.
A significant portion of your post history is a nasty screed and canard against the RZ Tzibbur that demonstrates your true colors – a deep-seated hatred for that community and EY. This thread continues such.
Quit the darvo already. You are not the victim here.
Anyone can look at your posts, then look at mine, and figure out that my reaction to this thread – which never should have been started in the first place – is based on your documented post history.
End of discussion.
1) Risaala Al-Yemeniyya is Iggeret Teiman, not Dalalat Al-Hai’irin – aka Moreh Nevuchim. Go learn Arabic. And yes, Rambam’s opinion does in fact matter, because you keep on invoking Rambam to back your case, when that simply isn’t so.
As for other Poskim, it may be the Ashkenazi position that the rulings of previous leaders must be taken into account. But it is just that, an Ashkenazi position and tendency. It is not a Sephardic position at all, nor it is an absolute amongst Ashkenazim. In fact, because there is no Sanhedrin and more often than not there is no central bais din in any given city, no Rav has binding authority. Therefore, we can respectfully question and reject a previous court’s ruling with justifiable reason for doing so. If you bothered to read that acutal works of the Rambam (and Ri Megash, and the Rif) you keep on trying to use to back your case, you would know this.
Which leads to my next point.
2) Re Aggadeta. This actually matters, but you’re not listening so we’re done here.
3) You’re not listening again. I’m saying that R Teitelbaum did not have any binding authority over anyone other than his community. Period. End of discussion. He did not. No one recognized him as having any binding authority outside of his direct followers and those who joined his “Chassidus” in the wake of the Holocaust after their religious communities were annihilated by the Nazis YMSV”Z. He didn’t even have binding authority within his city of residence, much less in Hungary, Eastern Europe, Ashkenaz or all of Am Yisrael.
Kindly stop with the nonsense that a R Teitelbaum had absolute authority over all of Am Yisrael to issue his ruling when he did not.
@ujm – Keep telling yourself that. Your post history shows otherwise.
@AAQ – I don’t get the deletion of the thread either. Once we got past the hatchet job part, that was a really tame discussion heading into Ashkenazi and Sephardic methodologies. Really tame, especially in comparison to the more bombastic threads here.
@YYA – I find that most American Jews are very unfamiliar with life in Israel.So ujm, you intend to call anyone else a non-Jew or is it just me? You might as well do so now and tell us all how many of us who support the State of Israel aren’t Jewish according to you.
You digging in your heels on your accusation shows that either my subsequent post saying you’re a troll and possibly not Yeshivish is true, or that I am a bit to close to the mark for your comfort regarding your real life beliefs about your fellow Jews.
I will point out that you haven’t denied the hatred in question here.
I will also point out that I never said Golus ended – it hasn’t and that’s obvious. Whether we are currently in אתחלתא דגאולה or עיקבתא דמשיחא is another matter, one you and I will clearly disagree about עד ביאת גואל, may he come within the next few weeks.
@ujm: I’m well aware of that. However, there are also many, many families who cannot trace back past 1-2 generations before the Holocaust. I consider myself lucky that I B”H can trace my family back to just before the Haskalah started. Also what YYA said, which is why I responded to you in the first place, because I am aware of those Halachos in Yore De’ah.
Let me guess, you’re casting doubt on my Jewishness because (1) I disagree with you over one issue – the State of Israel, and (2) because of a deleted thread where I defended a so-called “Conservative Rabbi” who wasn’t actually Conservative, and called out Artscroll for slander. That isn’t a good reason.
Grow up.
@YYA: That is true and I tend to agree with you. Usually you don’t find Chassidim on the internet, but there are exceptions. As it happens, I do question just how Yeshivish/Chassidish ujm, HaKatan and somejewiknow actually are (I increasingly believe they are either flame throwing secular, OTD or MO trolls posing as Yeshivish). However, I unfortunately have had nothing but really bad interactions with Satmar and Vizhnitz Chassidim.
@GadolHadofi: Could be. More likely he just didn’t like me calling him out.“I don’t understand why these Zionist idolaters continue to insist they are right and making silly claims like the Satmar Rav does not pasken for all of Jewry and the like.”
Because you don’t understand or know how Rabbinic authority works post-Bavli. That is patently obvious from your responses.
“The Satmar Rav was not the one who invented the oaths and their halachic applicability. But he does bring down numerous poskim through the ages, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO the Rambam, who invoked them as halachically binding. The midrash indicates that the oaths were the reason or the unimaginable ocean of Jewish blood spilled in response to Ben Koziva’s rebellion in Beisar. And on and on and on. Even the famous supposed quote from the Or Sameach that the Zionists love to distort (as mentioned above), clearly indicates that the oaths are halacha. Period. Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara.”
Go read Risaala Al-Yemeniyya in Arabic with Mori Qafih’s translation into Hebrew already. Learn Arabic. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
According to Joseph, Not Israeli obviously. Everyone else.
Stirring the pot again are we?
@YYA – Yes, all that is true. Ujm, HaKatan and Somejew have never experienced any of this (which I suspect you and I regularly interact with, since we both actually live in Israel).
Ujm/Joseph is absolutely a pyromaniac type troll (see his thread about reparations to slave owners as an example of that), but I still felt it necessary to respond to a claim that I’m somehow not Halachically Jewish when I can B”H document my family back at least 250-275 hundred years, which is more thoroughly than some of the frummest descendants of holocaust survivors, who most unfortuntately cannot trace their families back more than 3-4 generations.
Most people’s actions and statements in real life are very different from online. It’s very easy to hide behind a pseudonym.
ujm: I have a family tree that demonstrates clear Jewish lineage on my mother’s side from at least the 1700s and on my father’s side from at least the mid 1800s.
Try again, Sonei Yisrael.
Ujm hates Eretz Yisrael, his fellow Bnei Yisrael and especially the RZ Tzibbur.
Nothing new here.
@HaKatan: Child, bless your heart (I mean that as the lowest form of insult). You’re utterly wrong, but it’s okay. I’ve spent enough time disproving your weak opinion and you know it.
@somejew – A spokesperson for Neturei Karta is not a valid source for anything. You know why.@Non political – So Charedim can insist that the RZ Tzibbur follow their Rabbonim, their minhagim, etc.? No, two can play that game.
The reason for my requiring a court to issue a binding takana is simple: Charedim claim they are the only ones who truly represent Judaism. That’s a joke and utterly ridiculous, but that’s the claim. If that’s the case, then you need to show me you followed the Halachic process when deciding that Charedim should be except while everyone else isn’t. The most indisputable to do that is a Beis Din issuing a binding takana. Otherwisem, anything stated or published, whether proclamation or signed Pashkevillim – which everyone knows are an absolute joke and not worth the paper they are printed on – are simply written responsa to be considered but not binding in any manner since we have good reason for such, and there is no excuse for no service. It’s really that simple.
Nice job trying to pull DARVO (“deny, attack, reverse victim and offender” for the ignorant). You’re not getting away with it.
You are on record consistently and constantly denigrating the RZ community and flipping accusations of heresy. Your statements are literally all over this forum and you know it. If the mods allowed screenshots and links, I’d just post them all. They are even within this thread. Don’t deny it.
If you haven’t gotten my point or understood anything I’ve posted, how I’ve consistently questioned and taken apart the various things you – and somejewiknow – have posted to defend your position – in extreme detail, I might add, you’ll never get it. All your present response definitively demonstrates is just how unlettered, closed-minded and unwilling to be educated you are.
Improve your reading comprehension, go back through my reponses to you, learn something and bother to internalize what I’ve written.
Regardless, you are absolutely and indubitably wrong, there is no doubt about that.