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@YYA: Well said.
HaKatan:
Thanks for a real reference.
My response:
1) The question on Mi Yodeya is clearly answered that this “Mesorah” cannot be verified or fully attributed to whom you claim said it, as it could have been either the Vilna Gaon himself or Rav Chaim Volozhin.
2) The statement says nothing about the State of Israel you R”L wish to to see nuked into oblivion. It is about what will have to be dealt with in that final exile – rampant assimilation, intermarriage and a comfortable existence, one that led at one poster here to state that even after Moshiach comes, he will will not move to EY and will just only fly in for Chagim, as well as many, many others to say they would never move to EY because America is their home, not EY. Which leads to the question of just how much of American Jewry will last through the exile as Jews, and how many will assimilate and be lost.
3) What’s your point beyond more kvetching about Zionism?
@somejew –
Very briefly because I don’t have a lot of time for this (I could write far more but will not be doing so), and I will not be responding to you until I have time, which could be in a few months from now:
1) All I was doing was explaining Chaim’s broadside against you, why it most unfortunately was justified and why you are so difficult to have a conversation with. It’s a חבל that you couldn’t figure that out and resorted to accusations that are not true in the slightest.
2) I can say the same about you and your lack of understanding of how Batei Din, Serara, Pesak Halacha, Hora’ah, Takanos, etc. work.
3) The conversations about RZ are most definitely not meaningful and they do not do anything other than reveal reciprocal sinas chinam.
Actual heresies would be: (1) Chabad’s quasi-deificiation of their long-deceased Rebbe; (2) the tendency to regard Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidish Rebbes as pope-like figures who can perform miracles, if not outright deification of those Rabbonim; (3) praying to ספירות, which is minimally שיתוף if not outright polytheism and idol worship; (4) תפילות like מכניסי רחמים which pray to Angels, not HKB”H; (5) the Zohar implying that HKB”H has a wife and children. You could possibly also include the Zohar issuing Halachik rulings clearly in violation of regular Halacha. Shall I continue?
4) If you bothered to learn the Sefarim written by RZ Rabbonim, you would realize that you’re wrong. ויואל משה is one of the best polemics ever written against secularism and indeed it is food for thought on ideological terms, but it is not a halachik work, it should not be considered such and it does not argue effectively against RZ.
5) Those arguments that supposedly dismantle RZ are weak, especially when the underpinnings of the entire book rest on Aggada – which is not used to issue Halachik rulings and is not to be interpreted, but taken at face value, something you should know.
6) You want Torah arguments? Fine. Here we go:
a) Aggada. Read what I said above. That is a powerful Halachik argument, if not a Torah argument altogether. The entirety of ויואל משה is based on something that לפי הלכה is not to be used for exactly what the Satmar Rebbe uses it for. From that it is absolutely possible to argue that ויואל משה in fact teaches Torah in violation of Halacha. Unless you want to tell me that ויואל משה is in fact an ideological argument, in which case RZ argues against it. But it that case, ויואל משה is not Halachik in any sense of the word. Perhaps an Asmachta, but probably not even that.
b) You clearly do not understand Rambam’s use of the three oaths, its context and why it was stated in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya, just like HaKatan doesn’t get it either (and never responded to me about it). Read Mori Qafih’s (R. Yosef Kapach) edition of Iggeros HaRambam. There is nothing halachik about their mention, it is rhetoric. Reading the original in Arabic makes that patently obvious. The only halacha in that letter is in fact guidelines for dealing with a false messiah – in Yemen, not elsewhere. Those were specific circumstances. It cannot be extrapolated to today in reference to RZ.
b) Our מסורת – וזה נכתב בתורתינו הקדושה בעצמה: Any הוצאת דיבה about ארץ ישראל, which today means the State of Israel, and definition does include Zionism, leads to severe punishment. It happened when Berlin was declared ירושלים, it happened when other cities were declared ירושלים as well. Unlike the Satmar Rebbe’s hatred and short temper, this is an actual part of our מסורה. That is also a Torah argument and one that in our most sacred book meant the death of an entire generation and HKB”H killing 12 leaders immediately. By arguing against RZ and Z in general, ויואל משה is in fact an argument against ארץ ישראל in the modern era. There’s a reason why Satmar is often to referred to acting like the Meraglim.
c) The Satmar Rebbe only had authority over his commnunity. He did not have any authority over anyone outside, certainly not over the thousands who rejected his Shita outright. This is an actual הוראה issue and it most definitely applies. The RZ community has never accepted his authority. On top of that, his בית דין is not the only one in New York or in Israel. It therefore cannot claim sole abiltiy to issue תקנות of any kind because that requires the presence of one בית דין in a city. Thus, ויואל משה cannot be binding לפי הלכה.
d) Religious Zionism does not consider Moshiach to have come. Certainly this is the case post-expulsion from Gaza. You do not see anyone RZ not fasting on Tisha B’av or any of the other fast days. You do not see them erasing Selichos, Avinu Malkeinu or any other part of the traditional Tefillos said in mourning for the Beis HaMikdash and Yerushalayim.
e) Religious Zionism does not worship Herzl, Ben Gurion, Netanyahu or the State. They never have.
f) The prayer for the State does not say the Geulah has arrived. It says the extreme very possible beginning. Those qualifiers of ראשית צמיחת actually mean something.
7) That is Rav Kook to you. I will insist and demand that you show Der Rav the same respect you show the Satmar Rebbe.
8) The Satmar Rebbe was in fact wrong about Rav Kook. Your blind hatred and refusal to do any sort of serious research about the issue demonstrates your ignorance.
Be well.
Askanim should not exist. Period.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in galus for Torah is in America.”Again, provide a documented source.
I don’t believe Chaim is part of the RZ Tzibbur. I think he has RZ leanings.
You speak of fear about opening certain sefarim. I have learned VaYoel Moshe, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch, as well as Rav Kook. There is nothing in RZ that violates anything within any form of Orthodox Judaism. Period. You don’t know anything about RZ because you won’t study anything by Rav Kook, Rav Reines, Rav Alkalai, Rav Mohliver, etc. You instead project from ideologically secularist Zionism onto RZ, when they are categorically different. The practical Halachik differences, as I have said, are a couple of Mi-Sheberachs (which per Halacha must be said in Israel by all shuls, including Charedi) and Hallel on two days a year. The philosophical difference is how to deal with the State and its modern institutions. Anything else that differs is cultural. But I’ve said this all before; you just don’t want to accept any of it due to intransigence.
On the other hand, I can point out a great many number of things that Chassidim do that are flagrant violations of Halacha and/or are are almost forms of idol worship or shittuf, if not being polytheistic in nature and straight idol worship.
You’re getting hit with personal attacks because quite frankly, you’re what we would call – for lack of a better term – a grade-a <expletive>, and an intentionally ignorant one at that. You’re divisive, you drive Sinas Chinam, you try to make up Halachik excuses for your behavior. You are being called out for that, as well as the following:
1) You are a Chassid (I suspect Satmar, Vitznitz or Munkacz, since those three groups are the most vitriolic in their hatred of anything supporting the State of Israel, or even Zionism in any form) who cannot get it through his head that other valid Orthodox derachim do not and will not take a Chassidish Rebbe’s word to be immutable law from Har Sinai. We’ll ask our Rabbonim about these questions, thank you very much. Which also leads to a point I made a few months ago: The Satmar Rebbe did not have any authority outside his community, especially over the great number of Jews who have consistently rejected his authority and his sefer. You also refuse to address the fundamental questions I’ve raised against Vayoel Moshe. You just respond that I’m a heretic, despite the legitimacy of the questions being raised.
2) You are completely ignorant regarding RZ. I explained why above.
3) You are incredibly disrespectful when it comes to RZ Rabbonim, with you using epithets that should only be used for actual Resha’im and not even using terms of respect and authority that were earned. Rav Kook is not one of them, and you are grade-a schmuck (and I mean the Yiddish definition) for continuing to use those epithets. (The next time you refuse to call Rav Kook with his title, I will ask the moderators to delete your disrespectful posts like I’ve done in the past.)
There’s a reason why I’ve been telling you for at least two years to give it a rest and get a clue. Think about it. Read an actual history of RZ and and accrate biography of Rav Kook.
I’ll stop there.
@YYA – Obviously.
@AAQ – Here’s the thing: There is no actual change in leadership. Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood and all the other various jihadist groups have the same beliefs and mindset. It’s an issue with Islam itself.
@YYA:
“The Chareidim are the Zhid of Israel, and Israel is the Zhid of the world.”
I don’t agree with the first part of this unless this is from the perspective of Chilonim, but the second part is definitely true.
“For all the armchair Kanoyim in the room trying to find sources to expand the ranks of “Kofrim B’Ikkar”
That describes somejew and HaKatan perfectly.
@YYA – Don’t worry. HaKatan isn’t making Aliyah anytime within this lifetime. He’ll live anywhere but Israel. Even if he doesn’t say it, it’s plainly obvious from his posts.
@AAQ – I live in Israel, we’ve seen the results of these situations repeatedly. We know what will happen.
Unfortunately, with international politics being as they are, there really is no solution.
@OP:
I made Aliyah and agree with YYA.
Let them stay in the US. Moshiach hasn’t come anyway and most people wouldn’t accept a Moshiach who doesn’t look exactly like them, which means nothing is changing.akuperma:
“if non-zionist Hareidim grow in number, they might be able to work out something with the Yismaelim to bring about peace, something the secularists have been unable to do for the last century”If you think this is possible, you very clearly don’t know anything about Islam and Arabs.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA.”Provide a documented source (Sefer, page, footnote, etc.) that can actually be looked up. The phrase “we have a mesorah” isn’t good enough.
What happens is obvious: Hamas rearms and another round of fighting happens sometime in the near future, hopefully without a repeat of what happened two years ago.
We should have wiped everyone in the strip off the map or expelled them to Egypt or Jordan.
HaKatan:
Let’s pull this apart:
“Rabbi Kook was indeed very learned and had certain standards that were extremely high, like tznius, for example”.
First of all, that is Rav Kook to you. We’ll start there. Show the required respect. And yes, Rav Kook followed halacha meticulously, as is well documented.
“He also held that their “State” may not come about through violence and war, which is exactly how it did end up being founded.”
A defensive war. An actual second attempt at full Shmad after the Churban a few years before. Pikuach Nefesh in the most literal form possible. Does Halacha address that? Yes, you kill a rodef, which is exactly what the Arabs were.
“But all of that doesn’t change what the gedolim held of him, as mentioned above. The Chazon Ish also banned the sale of Rabbi Kook’s books, which included at least Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, if not also the others. So, no, that would not fit into the rubric of “hardline chareidi”.”
Works being banned by Rabbonim does not make one not Charedi. You clearly don’t know what Charedi means beyond the cultural trappings of such. If Rav Kook were alive today, he’d be voting for UTJ.
@Avi K – True. However, an issue of Mekor Rishon (Hebrew RZ newspaper, if you’re aware of it) from a year or two ago stated such and provided a documented source of the statement I summarized. Based on that, it does appear that the Hungarian establisment was not prepared for a Litvak to hold any authority over them. But that also reinforces a statement I made in another thread, that these “disputes” and “fights” were largely ideological without real animosity, with the most notable exception who made it personal was a certain Rav Teitelbaum.
@AAQ – I was not writing off REW. I was condemning Askanim – both past and present – for providing disinformation, causing Rabbonim to make statements based on deliberately incorrect or incomplete information and creating rifts that don’t need to exist – such as that between the Charedi and RZ public.
Regarding R Elyashiv and R Kamenetsky – It was disinformation, just like what was done to R Slifkin. I have no doubt regarding that.
@yankel –
HaKatan, in his blindness and hatred, is unwilling to do the research which would reveal Rav Kook to be as hardline Charedi as they got despite being the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi and part of the Rabbanut. Instead, he will argue – as he has in the past -that Rav Kook was powerful and they used those titles because of his position and being intimidated into doing so, not because he actually deserved them.
Which is an absolutely absurd assertion to make and I do not understand HaKatan’s intransigence and unwillingness to do even the most basic research into Rav Kook’s life.
He also will not address the fact that with the exception of the Satmarer, most of these “fights” between the RZ/MO Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur were largely ideological, with neither party having any true animosity/visceral hatred toward the other.
“REW may also have been influenced by courtiers who gave him misinformation.”
This would not surprise me. I suspect many Rabbonim who were opposed to Zionism were fed misinformation – deliberately – by the evil known as Askanim. Especially insofar as Rav Kook is concerned (who today would be considered very Charedi).
And there’s also the Hungarian establishment in the Old Yishuv’s sole objection to Rav Kook being, “He’s a Litvak. We ain’t listening to no Litvak”.
Vezos HaBeracha – Yamim Nora’im
Bereshis – Regular other than last line for each day. Unless it’s the resident Teimani guy reading, in which case he cycles through Teimani, Ashkenazi (Polish), and Edot HaMizrach.
Maftir- Regular@EX-CTL – Florida is either southern New York or northern Cuba so not surprising (I’m kidding). The further north you go in Florida, the more southern it becomes.
Where I come from in the south, a large number of people in almost every single one of the Orthodox Shuls carry.
@Avi K – HaKatan cannot and will not present direct citations that back anything he says. He just provides generally well-known quotations, statements, arguments or vague references to sefarim that support his argument. We can press him all day long about providing sources, he simply won’t do it. Maybe we’ll get a reference to a sefer or a quote from the same 4-5 Rabbonim he likes to quote.
His arguments cannot be taken seriously and should be treated as mere rhetoric.
“I wrote I was uncomfortable davening in shul with the person next to me having a gun.
I consider a shul a place of peace where guns don’t belong.”Then it would a good idea to not walk into Shuls in the southern USA, because there are many people with concealed carry permits and are in fact carrying guns.
@UJM: Negativity toward Zionism by definition includes denigrating the DL Tzibbur despite the very clear differences between DL and secularist Zionism, which is something you engage in on an almost daily basis. Don’t try to pull DARVO again.
As for a thread about me, I’m touched you think I’m that important (I’m really not), but there’s no reason for that. It’s just engaging in actual Lashon Hara 4-5 days before Rosh HaShana. But that’s on you.
As for this site, I’m done. Shana Tova.
@UJM:
Here’s the thing: Words have consequences, whether online or in person. You don’t seem to get that and think that you’re just some anonymous Charedi dude behind a screen. But we know that ex-CTLawyer is an in real life friend of yours. So you’re not.
The blunt truth is that the sheer amount of Lashon Hara, Rechilus and Motzi Shem Ra that you have spewed against both the Dati Leumi (a community that does in fact include me) and Modern Orthodox communities does actually count. You had those thoughts, you wrote them down, you posted them. Ergo you are responsible for them just like I am responsible for whatever I have said. What you wrote/said are absolutely wrongs against those communities and I know this to be true because your vile slander has been seen on Social Media, and I’ve seen the responses.
And yes, you do in fact owe me an in real life apology. You questioned my Yichus. That was not percieved, that was real – especially because you posted it in on a public forum.
So no, you will have to do more.
K’siva V’Chasima Tova.
@UJM – You’re going to have to do better than post on a forum and speak to people in person if you want actual forgiveness.
Obviously.
“The reason that so many go off is, of course, that this is the express purpose of the Zionist army: shmad.”
Don Quixote, the windmills want you to know that they aren’t jousting and the year is no longer 1500. (if you can’t figure out the reference: Stop fighting wars from 100 years ago and get with the program.)
“Please stick to facts and the Torah, not idolatrous insanity.”
Speak for yourself, he who worships the trinity of three Rabbonim rather HaShem Himself.
None of us are buying what you’re selling.
What @Ari Knobler said is true.
This is just plain slander and laughably untrue. For this to be true, thousands would have to be going OTD every year and that just is not true by any stretch of the imagination. The RZ Tzibbur would literally be unable to run a Shul or minyan if this were true, much less the 80 thriving Yeshivot Hesder and the numerous Pre-Army Mechinot.
It is as I have said: Those who go OTD in the Army by and large are those who were looking for an excuse to do so.
This is my final post here for a while because this is admittedly a pointless argument and one I am no longer willing to engage in.
This is not an opinion. From a stricly legal persepctive, the draft is completely legal.
The 1949 Defense Service Law, which predates the now unconstitutional 2002 Tal Law (and by extension the Torato Umanuto Arrangement) by at least 50 years, requires military service of all Israelis. It does not differentiate between Charedim and everyone else. Yes, there was an “agreement/arragement” not to draft Charedim, but an agreement not ensconced in binding law passed by the Knesset is quite frankly worthless. This is the case right now. There is no permanent legislation granting Charedim full, permanent exemption from the IDF service.
From the law on the Knesset website:
“In this Law-
“defence service” means
(a) service in the Regular Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: ‘regular service”);
(b) service in the Reserve Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: reserve service”);
“ordinary resident” means a person whose ordinary place of residence within the territory in which the law of the State of Israel applies;
“person of military age” means an ordinary resident of an age as specified hereunder:
“(a) in the case of a male person – any age from eighteen to forty-nine years inclusive;
(b) in the case of a female person- any age from eighteen to thirty-four years inclusive.The exemptions are:
(1) the mother of a child;
(2) a pregnant woman.
(c) A married woman shall be exempt from the obligations of regular service.
(d) A female person of military age who has declared that reasons of conscience or religious conviction prevent her from serving on defence service, shall, in such manner as shall be prescribed by regulations, be exempted from the obligations of defence service”.The punishment for draft-dodging, per the law is, “imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine not exceeding six hundred pounds or to both such penalties”.
Thus, Charedim are not exempt from service. Yeshiva students are not exempt from service. Hesderniks are not exempt. By law, the only groups with valid exemptions are those with medical conditions (including psychological and psychiatric), Olim and women (Sections 11 and 6 of the law). Based on this law which does in fact remain in effect, IDF service enforcement is not kidnapping. It is arresting those in violation of the law and those violators should be required to serve or produce a valid exemption in order to not serve.
Now, as for the so-called Tal Law: That law was declared discriminatory in 2005/2006, again in 2012 and most recently in 2017, whereupon it was essentially declared unconstitutional. It is a piece of legislation no longer relevant despite what you and I think about the HCJ and their technical ability to declare laws unconstitutional.
There isn’t much else to say about this.
Be well.
@YYA:
1) Are you referrring to the deleted thread about Artscroll’s nasty and uncalled for hatchet job of Hakham Faur? That thread had nothing to do with “Haskhafos of Conservative Judaism” and was about Artscroll’s tendency to call a hagiography a biography, when those are decidedly not the same thing in the slightest. It was also moving away from that hatchet job to Sephardic approaches to Halacha and Aggada, a very tame subject.
(BTW, if you think I’m an OTD Chossid, you’re very far removed from the truth. The correct label would be “Frum without any Mishugassen or idiotic Chumros whatsoever”. I also have zero connection to the Chassidish world.)2) This is true, but I admittedly don’t read the threads about Chabad. I do not believe I have ever been disrespectful vis a vis Satmar. I do wonder if you’re offended by the use of “Shem Resha’im Yirkav” in connection with Rav Kook ZT”L, something somejewiknow used to routinely do until I asked the mods to stop him – which they did, or if your objection only applies to Charedi Rabbonim.
3) This should not have happened, but we all know that the resident notorious troll started all this by questioning my Yichus – an idiotic thing to do – and those threads were largely in response to that. You yourself called out that individual.
4) I don’t disagree that this is wrong and those threads should have been deleted.
One more thing: This is the internet, you cannot easily control what is posted and what isn’t.
And like Smerel, I’m done here for now. There are far too many Sonei Yisrael from the Charedi Tzibbur here who would rather hate on their Dati Leumi and Modern Orthodox brethren than do anything else.
Chiefshmerel provided reliable sources. Newspapers are considered reliable historical sources. Anyone who has taken a history class and done any basic level of historical research knows that. You just don’t like the source because (1) it disputes your incredibly subjectve view of history and (2) the source is not Rabbinic.
@AAQ:
My point is that these arguments are irrelevant.
Sorry, real life interfered.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ. I never disagreed about that.
That being said, you, YYA and I are on opposites of the IDF issue and will not agree. My stance is still that Charedim should serve in the IDF and it is not going to change.
The rabid anti-Zionists here unfortunately do not possess reading comprehension skills. One only needs to read through recent threads concerning Israel, Zionism etc. over the last few months to half-year to see that they do not respond in a material manner when questioned. In particular, despite Yankel and and myself being on opposite sides of the Charedi draft issue, both of us have questioned them on the same grounds repeatedly with no material response. YYA has done so as well.
It doesn’t matter if it was questioning the applicability of the three oaths on Halachic grounds; respectfully questioning the applicability of Vayoel Moshe and such a work having any binding authority upon anyone outside the Rabbinic jurisdiction of its author; respectuflly yet forcefully showing how the RZ Tzibbur is very different from secularist Zionism; and even calling out divisive, bombastic rhetoric 2 days before Tisha B’Av as well as recent threads with bombastic titles for no reason other than to be rude and offensive.
The response has been the same. They repeatedly reference the same three Rabbonim, insist that any works which imply some support for Zionism on any level are intentionally being misinterpreted and misunderstood by their disputants, use Halacha as an excuse for a total lack of Middos, much less basic politeness, and ignore anything they disagree with or cannot respond to.
They also are quite frankly the Yeshivish/Chassidish equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills, meaning that vis a vis Zionism, they are continuing to fight a nearly century old battle now irrelevant. They should be looking at the far more insidious, underlying issue at hand – ideological secularism (a century ago this took the form of Zionism and communism, it is now currently in the form of progressivism and militant antitheism), and joining the RZ Tzibbur in combating that issue which concerns Orthodox Judaism in all its stripes.
Very succinctly:
1) No, there is no plan for that. Obviously. Why? Because:
a) Our politicians – including Charedim I will add – are interested in staying in power over anything else.
b) Having large families is considered to be a choice.
c) The government has a tendeny to kick issues not viewed as essential further along down the road to be dealt with at a later time.2) Because “sharing the burden” is limited to the IDF, not maintaining a Jewish majority, democracy or anything else.
My questions for you are:
1) What you sort of recognition do you want the Charedi public to receive for making what is largely perceived to be a life choice. A medal? Blanket military exemptions? Eternal public funding? Free housing, electricity, etc.? The exclusive right to rule?
2) What’s your plan? Expel anyone who can’t produce a shtar yuchsin?@YYA: It may be that Machzor. I don’t have the source on hand – I borrowed it several years ago. It was a book published by Machon Masores Ashkenaz (they’re very reliable when it comes to tracing anything Yekkish or Nusach Ashkenaz) about Yeshivos in Germany. I seem to recall the same source noting that the local Shul in Padua where Ramchal davened was Yekkish.
The Machzor bears the hallmarks of Yekkish Nusach Ashkenaz, particularly “וישמחו ה׳ אוהבי שמך” right before the closing of the Kiddushas HaYom bracha in both the Shmoneh Esrei for Shabbos and and the one for Chagim. No other Ashkenazi Siddurim have it, they all use “וינחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” for Shabbos and “וישמחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” on the 3 Regalim. The only other Siddur such phraseology appears in is Baladi Teimani Siddurim and it’s one of a great number of overlaps between Baladi and Yekkish Siddurim.
And again, I will point out that there are Italian Ashkenazim who can trace their families back hundreds of years. Their Nusach is essentially Yekkish and this was confimed more than once by an Italian Ashkenazi living in Italy.
Re the rest of your post: I know how Minhag HaMakom works as well as why it doesn’t really work in EY.
@IzoBar: HaKatan doesn’t actually have a response about which other oaths are being referred to, if not the three in question.
“The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.”
I’m clearly remembering incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.
“Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.”
Re Teimanim: You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach. I’m well aware that Teimanim are not “Sephardim” in the Spanish-expulsion sense and where their philosophical tradition comes from.
It may be that the study of philosophy dropped after 1492, but it certainly did not disappear to the degree you imply.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ overstepping its authority. That’s part of what the judicial reforms were supposed to address. We have a certain Aharon Barak to thank for starting this mess back in the 1980s-1990s, as well as the current AG, Yair Lapid, etc. for perpetuating it.
I believe the government should have enforced the Tal Law more than it did. A lot of these issues could have been solved if they did so – and if certain groups within the Charedi Tzibbur kept cooler heads.
A counter point that is important: The Charedi leadership has for many years prevented non-fulltime learners from enlisting through various means, but especially through social pressure and shidduchim. That has to change.
I still believe Charedim should serve in some capacity, whether it’s IDF service or national civil service.
Like I said to YYA, we’re not going to agree on this issue. That being said, the problems and issues at hand are not lost on me.
YYA:
“Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim”.This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
But generally, it is correct that Italians are neither Ashkenaz or Sepharad.
UJM:
The term for such in Hebrew is “להשתכנז”, it is not a positive phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with supposed help from the “Ashkenazi Torah world”. It’s more trying to fit in with the outside culture than anything else.@YYA – Truth be told, and I don’t live under a rock, but outside of Chozrim BeTeshuva, Sephardim joining any sect of Chassidus is a rarety unless the surrounding community is Chassidish.
The Sephardim I associate with and have been to exposed to are very proud of their Sephardic Masoret, particularly the one from Andalucia and don’t care for Chassidus or any of its trappings. And this is from a wide range of individuals – from RZ to Sephardic Charedi, even what would be called “traditional”. Thus, aside for a few Sephardim I recently have interacted who were Chabad, I dont interact with Sephardim who are Chassidish. The very idea strikes me as odd, even though it admittedly really shouldn’t, especially in Israel. (Parenthetically, I’ve obviously heard of Amnon Yitzhak and Shalom Arush, Sephardim who went Breslov.)
I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
@YYA:
What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus. Chassidus isn’t even on the radar.
That was my intent, not actual separation.
Also, just a note: Ramchal was Yekkish, not Sephardic.
As for whoever said there are no Sephardic Aḥaronim – well that’s just wrong. Like YYA said, you just haven’t heard of them.
@AAQ: Don’t bring up that thread, this one may be deleted like that one was.
You should have given it a different name then.
@YYA – Yeah, I know. I suspect that either something is glitchy with the website or the response was blocked completely.
The general gist of it was what I’ve been saying all along:
– Charedim should serve and I don’t think the reasons provided are good enough. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the issue. That being said, that does not change the fact that there are very serious problems within the IDF – problems I have never denied the existence of or denied that they are problems in need of change.
– The inflexiblity of the government, HCJ and Charedi leadership bear the blame for the situation. At the moment, the HCJ and AG are generally speaking the biggest problem other than the IDF’s insitutional biases that require fundamental change. To a certain degree I believe Charedi leadership bears some blame due to inflexibility – but I understand their side perfectly well.
– The government – and in particular people like Yair Lapid and Merav Michaeli – is its own worst enemy when it comes to drafting Charedim. Every time there is a trend toward serving, some anti-religious ideologue has to open his/her mouth or try to pass a law forcing the issue when quietly letting Charedi society start serving on their own is the right move.
– The battle over Charedim being drafted should not be happening in the middle of a war.
– There will need to be difficult compromises made by all parties for anything to change in a meaningful manner.
– RZ isn’t the problem and was never the problem, contrary to certain individuals arguing the contrary. Ideological secularism is, whether it takes the form of Zionism, progressivism, communism, leftist authoritarianism, etc.
– The issue of preserving a Jewish majority is an issue that needs to be confronted.
BTW, the term “Chardakim” is gross.
@YYA – I responded to you and Yankel but the mods appear to have blocked the post. I’m not really sure why.
Suffice it to say that I partially disagree and partially agree.
Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
@YYA:
“HaKatan – It is the ברית בין הבתרים that bothers the Gentiles. They don’t know or care about the difference between Satmar and Lubavitch, between Brisk and Har HaMor, between Ponevizh and Ponevizh, between Reb Arelach and Tzohar, or between you, me, ‘Square Root’, and ‘AAQ’. We are all Zhidden and fair game for murder ר״ל. The ideological flavor of the month (of the Goyim, or the confused Jews) makes no difference. Zionism was the second to most recent, and one of the most thorough, attempts by ערב רב to reject the Jewish end of the ברית בין הבתרים, and Hashem activated the Goyish end of the ברית בין הבתרים with devastating results. The most recent such attempt is post-Zionism/Progressivism, and Hashem again activated the system on Simchas Torah 5784. What WE have to do is תשובה תפלה וצדקה, and to help more Yidden do the same. Not deluding ourselves that the ‘only’ problem is Zionism, (and therefore we are OK, because we don’t like Zionism…)”This is completely right.
Hamikaten:
“It is Zionism that bothers the gentiles, not Judaism. The gentiles know the dirty secret that the Zionists are invaders who represent only themselves and not Jews, even if they publicly play along that the Zionist paradise is “Jewish”. They don’t see Jews as Nazis, but rather the Zionists, again, of course. Et al.”This is wrong and you know it.
It appears my response to HaKatan was banned by the mods.
Suffice it to say that HaKatan is once again lying and misrepresenting the RZ Tzibbur per usual.
Contrary to what he claims, is in fact looking to judge anyone he possibly can in the worst possible light.
And like I said in that post – “J’accuse”. And I mean it. (If you don’t what that means, go look up what it means in the context of Judenhasse.)
I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it. IDF service is a government policy and legal issue. Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns then.
I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw. They can serve.
@HaKatan – Don’t be intentionally dense. You know exactly what he means.
NOYB, catch yourself and besalel are right. We’ve always echoed our surroundings. Older generations may not consider modern Europop, trance, punk-pop, rap or whatever genre to be music, but to the younger generation, it is.
It’s kind of like how my parents’ generation abhors the use of the term “ain’t” while my generation (middle aged Millenials) and younger use the term and think nothing of it.
To make the point:
– Shlock Rock parrots and parodies 60s-90s rock music.
– The song “Yidden” by MBD is a literal rip-off of “Ghenghis Khan” – 70s pop music.
– Miami Boys Choir in its heyday sounded like 80s and 90s pop music.
– Shlomo Carlebach and Diaspora Yeshiva Band sound like 60s and 70s rock music.
– Chazzonus is essentially the Jewish version of the opera.
– Chassidish niggunim are Eastern European folk and drinking songs. To wit: I heard someone use “Korobeiniki”, a morbid Russian love ballad also known as the music in Tetris, for those who have played video games, in davening.
– I witnessed someone use the most recognizable chords of the song “Iron Man” in Hallel.
– One of the most popular tunes for Dror Yikra in the US is “Sloop John B”, as in The Beach Boys.– The Shabbos Zemer “Ka Ribon Olam” – The author – R’ Yisrael Najara – literally wrote it to the tune of an Arab song that was fairly popular or common in the 1500s in what was then Jewish Gaza.
@YYA:
1) No disagreement about the HCJ. We have a certain former Justice Aharon Barak (that is someone that terms such as “Yemach Shemo” and “Shem Reshaim Yirkav” could be used in association with, even though I wish him a long life to 120 years) to thank for that.
2) I was focusing on the legal definition.
3a) That is the Charedi position. That is not the RZ position.
3b) Obviously.
4) I did agree and I don’t deny it.
5) I share your lack of optimism toward the HCJ and IDF compromising. However, I will point out that AAQ is right about something: The IDF should not have to convince Charedim to serve. They should just me showing to serve like everyone else because it is the law.
6) I have no problem with discussing the politics, which absolutely plays a role in this issue. The broad consensus you speak of is within the Charedi community and certain parts of the RZ community. It is not aross the board.
7-8) No disagreement.
9) The IDF doesn’t want נוער הגבעות because the brass doesn’t trust them (they also tend to engage in criminal activity, specifically arson and destruction of property). Regarding everyone else, the games should stop.Just to be clear – again: I disagree with the Charedi Tzibbur on issues associated with the State, but most of those issues (Hallel on Israeli holidays, prayer for the state, IDF, captives/hostages) are relatively minor – with the exception of IDF service (which I have mixed feelings about). But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments no one is accepting outside certain parts of the RZ Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur.
@Yankel: They’re supposedly deferring, but in reality they are deferring until they are too old to serve – which is de facto draft dodging. Let’s be honest, Charedim want a blanket exmeption enshrined in law.@AAQ:
Shas at its core is a social justice party dressed up in Sephardic clothing. It is also decidedly Charedi – or possibly non-Zionist Sephardic, but it is far more focused on social justice issues that Charedi issues.