Out Of The Mailbag – To YW Editor (Modest Suggestion For Shidduch Crisis)

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yw story logo.jpgDear Yeshiva World,

There is much being said about the Shiddich situation today. I have a modest suggestion that can be implemented by individuals.

The Gra in Even Shleima says “ki mah she’heodom chai hu keday lishbor hamiddah shelo shavra ad henah, velochen tomid tzorich lehischazek, ve’im lo hischazek lomoh lo chaim”  [the reason a person is alive is in order to break the middah that he hasn’t yet broken, and therefore one must always strengthen himself, and if he didn’t strengthen himself, what is he living for]?”

A person’s essential nature is very hard to change.  Rav Yisroel Salanter zt”l said it’s more difficult to change one middah than to learn gantz Shas.  Today bli ayin hara we see so many people completing Shas.  So perhaps it’s time to tackle something even more difficult.  While we should all be working on our middos leshem shomayim, I hope that the following shelo lishma may help motivate some.

Parents have little control over some of the qualifications prospective mechutonim may be examining with regard to a Shidduch.  The height of the child, the appearance, the intelligence are beyond their control (after having davened for them in past), as are the parents’ social and economic status.

There is one factor that I have seen discourage prospective mechutonim which can be altered, albeit with considerable effort, and that is the middos of the parents.  Many shidduchim have been refused consideration or shattered at a later stage due to the reputation of the shver (or shvigger) for being a difficult person, one who always gets his (or her) own way, etc.

Sometimes a prospective mechuton will overlook the person’s conduct in the community if he is perceived as sweet and nice to his family, but other times the prospective shver is described as controlling every aspect of his children’s lives.  Of course, we want to instill our values in our children, but there comes a time when it’s up to the children to apply what they’ve been taught on their own, and, unfortunately, some parents don’t see this.

Of course, change doesn’t happen overnight, but we must believe in the power of Teshuvah to transform a person, and his reputation as well.

The next time you have a difference of opinion with your neighbor, your child’s school, your friends at shul etc. (or, the next time your child wants to do something perfectly innocuous that is just not “your way”), consider that if you give in, you may thereby avoid pushing away your child’s shidduch.

Signed

A very easygoing parent (I hope).


71 COMMENTS

  1. Why would this letter be of any good to the shidduch crisis; it sounds like any parenting letter being given over?!?!?

    This “suggestion” can be applied in general:
    Parents should back off from their children on a certain level especially when he/she is on the verge of getting married. What a parent has instilled in their children is what the children have hopefully come to – from now on thay are on their own moulding themselves using the tools they learnt from their parents.

  2. Definitely interesting.I have definitely heard such a complaint…No one thinks that they are difficult.It really means looking deep within one self to realize where we stand.It means more than being mevater ince in a while…It may mean really changing one self.Hatzlocha and shkoyach ofr the suggestion.We need more of these..

  3. Thinking about your response to a difference of opinion before you act is a great suggestion, but I’m not sure why one needs the threat of “it might hurt my child’s shidduch” in order to act like a mentsch. Do it because it’s right, not just because it might ruin a shidduch.

  4. The Gra is correct. However if a person can’t get married maybe he/she is doing the wrong deed; why is this writer blaiming the actions of parents on kids.
    If the parents are a certain way, its something to deal with. But maybe the children who are so desprateley looking for their zivug have to change their own ways- everyone at their own level ofcorss. Maybe this is what the GRA meant for; the actual person not their parents. their parents have their own problems, which thay have to fix for THEMSELVES!!!
    Nobody is perfect but we can try to reach Perfection!!!

  5. enough already & let everybody worry aobut themselves & everbody is responsible for themselves & sooner than later they are going to figure out how come my children are not engaged, stop giving advice & wisdom as nobody is even the least bit interested

  6. My comment is slightly off topic, but still has שייכות. People are also too ready to refuse a shidduch if one of the parents are divorced. I agree, perhaps more careful checking-into is required for children of divorced families, but, nebech, because the parents are no longer together the boy or girl is not a good potential? !!!

  7. Being involved in shidduchim, I think the writer has a great suggestion. I tell parents all the time that the most important thing to look for in a mechutan is an easy-going person. During the dating process & certainly later on, the difference between an easy-going mechutan & a difficult one is tremendous.

    Shadchanim also tend to stay away from difficult people. It’s very unpleasant to deal with them.

    So, all in all, improving your Middos may help the shidduch problem.

  8. Reb Yisroel Salanter would be proud of this post. If I did not have another job, I would be motivated to develop the virtual Bais Humssar.

  9. i am now in shidduchim (as my name states!!!) and i totally agree with the letterwriter!! he is like totally right! i mean my freind’s dad is totally one of the most controliign ppl in the world!! and my friend is like not getting any shidduchim cuz of it! she cries to me on the phone all of the time that no one calls her cuz her father is so hard to deal with! she constantly pleads to me and says, why cant ppl just look at me and my middos and not the middos of my father! it really bothers her so much! she can’t change her father’s middos, only her own! And the person that she is going to marry is going to marry her and not her father!! She is already going on 25 and went out very few times, because ppl konw about her father!! i cry for her all the time! its really hard to have parents like taht!! My friend is a great girl who has wonderful middos, but her situation is quite bleak, becuase of her father!! my dear brothers and sisters of klal yisroel, let us unite and think of what we could do for the girls and boy who struggling with the shidduch crisis!! you can make a dfiference! how? by improving on your middos, so your children will not have to experince what my friend is going through!

  10. I couldn’t agree more.

    I’m a 29 year old who had been dating untill last year I realized that I have made some mistakes which include priortizing what is it that your looking for in a marriage.

    also I do have to say that I followed the advice of some rabonnim who said to marry girls who are your age, the problem I find in girls my age (29) that they are pretty much accomplished and want someone who’s a professional.

    those that do go out with you think to much and don’t have it straight.

    so I guess ill be dating younger girls who are naive and maybe ill get married soon

    frusterating

  11. “Controlling parents” is the one big issue of the shidduch crisis. It has always been the roll of parents to “look into” a shidduch for their children. But we are getting to the point of rediculous questions and expectations. If parents would start treating their children as young adults, who have minds of their own and a future to build on, rather than haveing everything handed to them on a silver platter from the start, maybe there would be less of a shidduch crisis.

  12. whoever wrote this letter i don’t understand why this is part of th shidduch problem(id rather not call it a crisis-because it aint a crisis!) but anyways what does have to do with parents middos! this is the first time i’ve ever heard of such a thing. please can you explain what you mean. thank you.

  13. # 12, It’s not saying that a/t is wrong with the child because of the parents middos. It’s saying s/t that I HAVE seen before. Sometimes a shidduch is pushed away due to the fact that the mother of the prospective boy or girl is “a tough cookie” , or the father ” has a reputation of being difficult to deal with”…etc..and some people are nervous to get themselves into such a sitiation. They are afraid that either the inlaws will be a “difficult” shver/shvigger to their child, or that the parents themselves will have a difficult time dealing with the prospective machatunim…

  14. #9,InShidduchim: I am sorry that you are pained by the situation or your friend but please let me explain: I personally, would never go out with a boy that has a very controlling father. Do you know how many problems that may lead to after marriage? Why should I get involved with such a Shidduch when there are plenty of other people that I can date without such problems. It’s not always so easy to just drop the in-laws and take them out of your life. If I may think realistically, the problem just worsens when there are grandchildren involved. Why should I put myself in such a situation? Now, let me ask you this: Honestly, Do you really believe that your friend doesn’t carry this trait at all from growing up and being raised in such a home? What are the odds? It would be hard for me to believe that this girl doesn’t have this trait in her at all. Is it fair that she has to live with it? No! But thats the situation that Hashem put her in and she will probably end up marrying a boy that has a similar situation like her own. Sorry, I just felt very differently and wanted to explain myself. Good luck to you and your friend!
    P.S. Try not to use the word “like” so much when you write. Thanks!

  15. Some of you are asking how will this help the current shidduch crises. The answer is it probably won’t, but we need to do something so that this shidduch crises end. Meaning if people take this suggestion now when their children are young or even still in thier diapers then they will probably have an easier time finding a shidduch for thier children at the right time. This may sound crazy but I think its so true. Perfect and work on your middos now so that in twenty years your children might suffer less. Its kind of like planting a tree and taking good care of it even though it will take years before you see it bear fruits. The only difference is that taking advise of this letter will make your whole life better!!! You could only gain from being good!! Also what about being more kind and thoughtful so that your friend or your friends daughter find a shidduch in that זכות???

  16. The writer suggests that one could possibly “overlook the person’s conduct in the community if he is perceived as sweet and nice to his family” as opposed to someone who is seen “as controlling every aspect of his children’s lives.” Apparently the “difficult person” to which the writer refers earlier is just such a person.

    The writer is absolutely correct, but with a slight difference in perspective. The problem today is precisely because most people see this sort of behavior as being so terribly wrong that it warrants calling off a shidduch. Unfortunately, therein rests the problem.

    Yes, we as parents must learn how to choose our battles. What is a milchemes mitzvah and what is a milchemes reshus changes with each generation, making parenting that much more difficult. Not every child — age or gender — faces the same challenges socially, educationally, and, of course, spiritually.

    However, any parent who does not see their role as being that of an educator, guide, indeed a personal GPS for their children, is not ready, or perhaps even fit, to be a parent.

    Yes, once the child is married, parents should not / may not interfere unless they are asked to, and even then sparingly. And this is a gradual process — giving the child more “freedom” as they get older. However, until then, a parent must guide, must provide a set of (age appropriate) limits which give the child a sense of security and meaning to their lives.

    It is precisely today’s prevalent feeling that parents should not, or even have no right to, control where their children go, who they play with, what they play with, watch, or listen to, that leads to viewing this fundamental responsibility of parents to be looked down upon.

    Parents — as a whole — have more experience; they have a different perspective of the world. Whatever happened to the “because” as the answer to the question “but why?”

    Yes, the child should be given explanations. Yes, the parents should encourage them to make their own decisions. But that a parent should be looked down upon for fulfilling their obligation as a parent by trying to raise his (or her)” child, is ludicrous.

    Obviously, the writer was referring to one who is “out of control.” But they are the exception and the shidduch crisis is just that — a crisis. It is obviously out of control. That is because we view parents today as necessary evils and not the very being who give their children their very life.

  17. 95% of the blame for the shidduchim “crisis” is due to the frum attitude to the central and critical importance of one and only one thing: money, money and again money. People with money want only money and people without big money are totally marginalized.
    that is the beginning, the middle and the end of most of the refusals, all other problems mentioned are but a minute fraction of the problem

  18. I agree with #14.

    Perhaps the most important aspect to consider in a shidduch is middos, is that not what we learn from Eliezer’s search for a wife for Yitzack, who will be the mother of our nation? He davened for a sign she was able to be part of bais Avraham and Hashem showed him how she has middos! Chesed, tzinyus, humility, etc… That how he decided to choose Rivka for our mother. Maashe avos siman l’banim.

    (As a side point which people will probably comment to me so I might as well say it first, she did not come from top stock yichus, her family was quite miserable indeed. With Hashem’s help Eliezer was able to perceive enough good in her to override her family, but it takes huge siyiata d’shemaia to decide such a thing.)

  19. to #5 “in shidduchim”…its not that simple, yes he’s is marrying her not her father, but who wants to put up with such fahter in law. So this cliche’ of “he or she is marrying each other not thier parents” is not so simple…

  20. thinkinghelps

    thank you for explaining it. i agree with you 100%!i myself am ‘in the parsha’ now. and yes who wants a wife/husband who’s parents are on the ‘rough side’. as it goes in life children reflect their parents.however i don’t think thats what should be focused on for the shidduch situation. maybe the first thing that should be taken care of, is the girls and boys themselves shouldn’t be so picky. no is perfect. it’s hilarious what my friends tell me what type they want in their spouse-things that will NOT make their marriges easier!!

  21. one thing everyone please get straight- THERE IS NOTHING CALLED A SHIDDUCH CRISIS!! don’t get me wrong it’s a problem but not a crisis! people MAKE it a crisis!! baruch hashem we have a few weddings a night in every community! so please explain- why is it a crisis?!?! (if you like call it a situation-not a crisis)please-thank you!!!

  22. 6, my attitude to divorce when considering a shidduch has been this: are the parents now at a point where they are acting in concert in the best interests of the children? If not I would reject it only because my kids are on the young side and don’t need this added stress when starting out. If it’s the right one, it’s clearly not the right time. I guess I would extend this to parents who are together but difficult. Maybe my questioning hasn’t yielded the proper results because we haven’t come across this yet.

    10, are you still learning full time? There are older girls who still want full time learners who are growing (vs. those who labor under the societal pressure that they need to be married, at whatever age, for permission to move on from full time learning). If you are a mentch working at an honorable, responsible job with opportunities for growth or branching out, you don’t need to be a lawyer, MBA, etc. to attract a quality girl. They must be out there. But at 29 (and honestly, even younger, if contemplating marriage) a guy should be goal-oriented.

    I have no reason to assume that you are not a mentch with a head on your shoulders. Assuming you are, you may still benefit from some sort of life coaching, etc. Hatzlacha and may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisrael,soon!

  23. (I hope i dont get too much flak for this, but here goes….)
    There is something to be said about what you want your grandchildren being exposed to. To expose a prospective spouse to a controlling father or mother, who may have a terrible temper and uncontrollable jealousy, is not as bad as exposing the grandchildren. An adult, who has hopefully realized right and wrong, has made choice as to what kind of person they would like to be, can filter out the personality of their in laws. But why would I want to bring grandchildren over to their grandparents to whiteness possibly terrible middos and temperament? The same goes for marrying into more modern/more frum family. Exposing a spouse is not as bad as exposing innocent and naive children to the perhaps damaging personalities of their grandparents.
    Furthermore, should you marry into a family that their middos or personality isn’t what you would want your children to learn from; we as the son or daughter in law are not allowed to tell our children “don’t learn from what zaidy or grandpa just did”. Its chutzpah and it teaches our children that we don’t have to respect our elders even if we don’t agree with their character traits….

  24. lgbg has a good point, baruch Hashem there ARE many weddings! We should express our thanks to Him that people DO get married and not just our complaints.

  25. # 18 just another plug for “out of town” girls. their main focus is notususally on money. i think that is a primarily “in-town” thing. i have never seen a shidduch break up because of $$ issues.

  26. lgbg, there is a crisis, and eventhough there may be many chasanas a night, there are many, many people still looking for the right one, in their late 20s, 30s and even 40s. There never was anything like this. Just as there are so many girls and women around, there are so many boys around, however the problem is that firstly, they are so different from each other, and secondly, many have no way to meet. If they do not have someone looking oout for them, or have big bucks, no matter how many maaylos they have, they may not even get a date, let alone a shidduch. Also, as far as fear of controlling machatonim, remember, it isnot only the time before the chasanah that is a problem, children ususlaly look to please their parents and if their parents are telling them negative things about thier spouse, it will definitly ahve an affect. also, there machatonim are going to insist that the children come to them when ever THEY want and that when it comes to giving names after ainiklach, no matter what the situation is they will insist that they get the name and that you pay for it. Also, no one wants to lose a child to controlling machatonim. Hatzlocho in your search, and may you find the richtige zivug soon

  27. #27, I agree with you 100%. I dont think you should be getting flak for what you said, you make a very valid point. to bring home a kallah (or chosson), to see a controlling father-in-law – at that age, it is something they can rationalize. but for a young child, it can be terrifying, and instills terrible values. This man (my zaide) gives me lots of candy and presents, but he calls bubbie a (fill in), yells if hes not served the food he wanted, etc etc? Must be very confusing for a child!

  28. tzippi

    I’ve been working for over ten years

    goal oriented ha!!!

    I had my own bussiness and goals up to the gezu

    hashem runs the world the way I see it most girls lack Bitachon in hashem

    to them its all about how much does he make now or does he have a college degree or not.

    based on my statistics:

    my friends who have degrees or not so happy in marriage cause their wives arent so happy all they want to do is kvetch kvetch kvetch.

    my friends who do not have degrees and work hard.

    some who have made it in buss. some havent gotten there yet but arent lazy.

    haha, they are leading the most happy and sucessful life together.

    they struggle to come up with ideas together,a lot of decisions are made together as a matter of fact they still go out on dates with eachother evey week.

    they have what to talk about.

    they strive to love one another and give eachother support.

    ladies give it a break……….I’m done giving girls my age every chance possible.

    I dated girls my age (26-31) for 4 years saying ahhh one day I’ll find the one that will look at my personality middos and character….

    thats about to change, some of the younger girls are a bit more naive and will look at does this guy fit what im looking for in a husband!!!

    older girls should stop crying and ranting………

    if your gonna look for the 75-100% in a guy good luck dating and dont waste our time.

    a wise person once said to me.

    look for the 50% together we will make it 100%

  29. bina yesaira

    uh…. either you don’t have children on the market or you aint on it because, one of the few questions people ask is- ‘what is the familys financial statis?’ so it’s kind of what people care about. when i red a shidduch do you know how many people tell me they’re lookn for full support- i mean their prince needs to be pampered like a king! so i really think before you say that shidd. don’t happen because of $$$ go and try to red a shidduch and then come back and tell me that!

  30. lkwdbuby

    SORRY IT AINT A CRISIS!! if you look around young girls and boys are getting divorced- why? because they were so pressured by friend, and mostly from parents who were scared their precious child may get married at 20 or 23 and couldn’t bare to face that, so their innocent young child is pressured to jump into an ocean that they never wanted to swim in! they did’t want to marry that girl/boy but their loveing parents convinced them it’s for their benifit!! i personally know countless of young girls who were forced into a marrige and really ended up wounded!!
    parents please don’t let your child marry a girl/boy that they would not want to.
    don’t get me wrong parents do know best! but remember your not marrying the girl/boy- it’s your child!
    everyone wants their child to live happily ever after…..

  31. I do not understand what makes a person an apikorus if he does not think yichus is important. Can you please explain further? Why should they not have a portion in the world to come if they do not insist on marrying “good stock”? Many people in Tanach married from families of lesser quality, Yizkoch, Moshe, Yosef (without the commentary on being bas dina), Yaakov, to name a few. I know people who marry into baali teshuva families with everything else proving worthy. From my knowledge of the torah’s view on shidduchim, yichus does not seem to be on top of the list. Apikorsus only applies to deny a principle of torah. Please enlighten us where this principle is written in the torah.

  32. Its time for everyone to grow up and stop talking about shidduchim like its Polio or some other horrible epidemic. there are much bigger issues in klal yisroel that need to be tended to.

  33. #34 sorry- wrong on both counts. i redt shidduchim as well as have children married and in the parsha. i did not say, by the way, that i have never seen a shidduch that didnt get redt or get turned doen due to money. i said “break up”- as in the couple almost being engaged and then the parents get involved and make demands re: money and things dont work out the way they want and the poor couple suffers because of the money issues. (i have heard of this happening with new york families).
    what i am talking about is that while many people do ask about the financial situations, but i see much less of that question when i deal with out-of towners since they realize that even thought money is a real issue, but it is not THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE. the priorities are different.
    by the way, do you redt shidduchim “in town”?

  34. #14 sorry but i seee first hand that you are not correct every sit. is diff. you dont have to be so negative give every person a chance-by the way most times you dont even know what the family is really like till you see first had so if you think you know you’ll be in for a surprise good luck

  35. #22, WhoSaidWhat, I did not correct your writing skills, I corrected InShidduchim’s writing skills and InShidduchim is a girl, so what are you talking about? She is obviously a girl, or I would hope so because she writes that she listens to her friend cry to her on the phone. She writes “she cries to me on the phone all of the time that..”. Please just sit back and relax and enjoy life.

  36. by Emuna Braverman Part of the challenge of marriage is the constant need to remind ourselves why we married our partner in the first place.

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    “To dream the person you would like your partner to be is to waste the person your partner is.” Too bad the author of this quote is anonymous. He or she seems to have a lot of wisdom.

    All around me I see doomed relationships because the husband or the wife wishes their mate to be someone or something they’re not. While it is certainly true that people sometimes marry their partner hoping he or she will change (despite all the marriage books, classes and videos to the contrary!), this is not always the problem.

    It may also be true that people have very active fantasy lives (witness the large sales of Harlequin romances and authors like Nora Roberts and Danielle Steele), that they get caught up in dreams and fairy tale imaginings and lose sight of (and gratitude for) their reality. But this is not always the problem either.

    In wanting our partner to be different, someone new, we frequently forget why we married them. We married them for who they are, for that particular combination of character traits that is uniquely them. It’s a package deal. Remove one of those qualities and you don’t have an improved wife, you have a different wife. Your husband is not a better person, he is someone else entirely.

    Part of the challenge of marriage is the constant need to remind ourselves why we married our partner, to refocus ourselves on the qualities that attracted us to them, and to tell ourselves that, as with our children, we can perhaps do some fine tuning but we can not change their basic character. Nor do we really want to.

    If we are loud and boisterous and we were attracted to our husband for his sense of calm and quiet, we can’t now complain that he doesn’t like to go out more often or throw large parties. Instead we need to focus on the beneficial effect that his peaceful nature has on our wilder one, on the ways in which we grow under his steady influence.

    It is in these areas of difference that there is usually the most attraction, the most struggles, and the most opportunity for growth.

    My friend Shira is a real cheerleader type. She loves to belong and to inspire others with her team spirit. After they got married, her husband began work with a national teenage youth group. Shira loved it. She loved mothering all the kids and having them over for Shabbos. She loved the conventions and retreats and the sense of being part of a group of like-minded idealists. But Shira’s husband was more of an independent thinker. He chafed under the rules and regulations of a bureaucratic organization. He needed greater personal and intellectual freedom. He needed a new job.

    It was hard for Shira to leave this group, and things in her marriage could have turned ugly. But Shira was able to remind herself that she valued her husband’s independence and critical thinking, that being a “rah rah” camper her whole life, she was stimulated and excited by his original thought and action. By focusing on these areas of initial (and ongoing) attraction, Shira was able to support her husband through his time of transition instead of attacking him. While she may have wished her husband to also be the camp counselor type, she recognized that it was so inconsistent with his personality that he’d need to be a completely different person. He wasn’t capable of that, and she didn’t really want that either.

    Dan took pleasure in his wife’s free-wheeling ways… until dinner didn’t appear on the table.

    If only we were all so mature and far-sighted.

    In my cousin Dan’s marriage, they have a somewhat opposite and potentially contentious dynamic. Dan was attracted to his wife, Sara, partly because she was so vivacious and fun loving. She enjoyed spontaneity and was full of vision and dreams. Dan who was more of a quiet planner took pleasure in her free-wheeling ways. Until dinner didn’t appear on the table. Or appeared at odd hours.

    While they have to find a practical solution to the meal issue (a guy has to eat), Dan had to give himself a little talking to. He reminded himself that he really loved that side of Sara. Her warm personality attracted others to her and she was so easy to be around. How lucky he is. Despite his growling stomach, Dan knew that he had been drawn to those qualities so he wasn’t really in a position to complain. Yes they had some things to work out, but that sense of fun would always be part of Sara’s essence, and if Dan is smart, he will continue to enjoy it.

    Sometimes it’s helpful to make a list: These are the reasons I married my husband. These are the qualities I was attracted to in my wife. Keep the list handy (not on the fridge — no one else needs to see it!). Read it when you’re feeling confused or angry; read it before you’re feeling confused or angry. Read it when you’re feeling happy and grateful; it will reinforce those emotions.

    Every time we read our lists, it should bring a smile to our faces as we realize how lucky we really are — we got exactly what we wanted.

  37. bina yesaira

    i didn’t say thats what parents think is most important for a shidduch, however its a huge point. and you do have a point that ‘out of towners’ aren’t so makpid on the money issue, but some are and yes it is more the ‘in towners’, ever wonder why? maybe because the ‘intowners’ live a much higher lifestyle, and want to keep it up- and in this world you can’t do it without money!
    and yes i redt intown and out of town shidduchim.why?

  38. To #1-#36, you’re all nuts. It seems to me that parents aren’t happy supporting even though they are the ones who instill this idea of kollel in their daughters, even though they claim to do it happily. The boys aren’t happy because it’s not coming as smoothly or as much as they would like. The girls aren’t happy because their parents take it out on them and as soon as they had enough of the “kollel life” they feel their husbands should be millionaires by the end of the first day working. The point of this message is: Parents stop promising what you cant or don’t want to give & think twice before sending your daughter to that wonderful seminary that is going to cost you 20,000 dollars for the first year and far more after that when they decide they want a “long term learner”. Girls if you cant handle the “kollel life” don’t ask for it, and if you can only handle it for a while don’t expect riches overnight! Boys, if you are learning just to get married DONT, it will only cause you heartache in the end. To the ones who are being supported its just like a job so do it the right way, the BOSS (PARENTS & IN LAWS) have a right to expect something from you, keep in mind money doesn’t grow on trees sometimes its really not that easy to give it.

    One more thing: the same way BOYS don’t ask girls ARE YOU DRESSING TZNIUS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO or BECAUSE ITS EXPECTED OF YOU, STOP ASKING BOYS ARE YOU LEARNING BECAUSE YOU LOVE IT OR BECAUSE ITS EXPECTED OF YOU. ITS ANNOYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This comment is cosigned by Fahrfrumt.

  39. While the letter-writer is correct, the fact remains that in many families the children turn out to be the opposite of what the parents are. If the father has a problem with middos then many times the children who need to tolerate this are motivated to work on themselves to be a mentch. And if the parents are the nicest people and therefore may sometimes be more likely to be too nice (aka: spoil) their children, the children unfortunaly end up being a bitter disappointment to their zivug. Of course either way we have to work on our middos, but please be careful and dont allways judge the children based upon their parents it can be very misleading.

  40. The Chazon Ish said that after the creation of the Bais Yaakov schools, it is possible that even for a daughter of an am haaretz to be considered a bas talmid chocham.

    This means that a bas talmid chachom has nothing to do with who the father is but rather the qualities the girl has herself.

    If you have any disputes to this, please quote actual sources rather than sporadic “Chazal and many gedolim say…” and not condemning everyone into apikorsim by non-proofs and your own opinions .

  41. im like totally reading these comments and am getting wya too confused!!! it really all makes no sense!! i totally bothers me that noone is sticking to the thoughts of the original letter!! like what in the world does arguing if yichus is kfira have to do with controling parents!! im crying for the letterwriter that he is having such a difficult time and so arguoign over yichus has nothing to do with anything adn is showing the letterwrite that what he is saying is compleltely wrothless adn not important!! so lets try to stick to the important topic and try not to deviate!!
    and bygirl, why do you care if i put in too many likes! thats how i talk!! if it really bothers you, then just learn to accept other ppl’s differences!! and how can you just assume that my friend is controlling just like her dad!! she is actually one of the sweetest girls in the world!! its not her fault that she was put in this situation!! she is acutally one of the nicest and sweetest girls in the world!! she is very accpeting of others and helps out many people. #47 is correct that “in many families the children turn out to be the opposite of what the parents are. If the father has a problem with middos then many times the children who need to tolerate this are motivated to work on themselves to be a mentch”. that is a perfect and accurate statement!! so bygirl, im just curious what you think, so please answer back!

  42. Dear InShidduchim

    I have the utmost sympathy for your friend. I am sure there is some creative solution for her. Possibly she should talk to shadchonim who know boys from remote places who a)might not hear of her father’s reputation and b)can take her away to live somewhere where the father will hopefully not interfere too much with the young couple’s life.

    And yet – there is another issue she needs to address. Many commenters have rightfully pointed out that she may have wonderful middos. My concern in such a case is NOT that the child is the controlling type but that he/she (let’s say the meduberes from now on to simplify our discussion) is so accustomed to listening to Mom or Dad’s advice before taking any tiny step, that she will continue to do so. Thus, be”H she will find a shidduch but even if he takes her to the far ends of the earth, will she need to call Mom or Pop to know what to make for supper or what color shoes to buy for baby? I don’t mean to make light of a serious subject at all. The fact is that people say about some meduborim or meduboros – “can’t make a move without ….”

    So, in addition to hoping this letter provokes some thought about working on one’s middos, let’s see if we can generate some creative solutions. Any one else have ideas how Meduberes bas Av Takif can overcome her nisayon?

  43. Okay, InShidduchim, #49, you asked for it so here I go. Firstly, before I begin, please just proofread you letter before you submit it. I am not asking for perfect grammar and spelling but just the basics. The only reason why I was focusing on saying “like” is because it drives me nuts when certain types of girls always use that word. I am plenty accepting of differences that people have but I think the way you use it,is just weird. Also, please don’t get so concerned when people write things that are off topic. That usually happens when people write back and forth to each other. Things that people say lead to different things and it’s really not a big deal. Now, on different note, I beg to differ. Yes, your friend may be the sweetest girl with very fine middos but it is very hard for me to believe that from ages 0 till 29, she has no controlling side in her at all. Maybe you don’t realize but I am the person that I am today because of my home. Do you realize how much impact the home makes on a person? Of course school and friends also make a tremendous impact but the home is first. I am not saying that your friend must be a controlling person due to her background but I do believe that it is usually the case. Of course there can be a controlling girl that didn’t grow up in such a background, I just want to make my point clear. I strongly believe that the background that a person grows up in USUALLY, makes a tremendous impression on who the person is.

  44. who said what

    im sure your going thru a very hard and frustrating time with shidduchim. a list helps with shidduchim 100%, however make sure to minimize to 10 points you want in your spouse or else you can get really confused! and its a good point about finding a spouse thats 50% what ones lookn for, then complete it to 100% together!
    you can tell you got your head screwed onto your shoulders!!
    your searching should end soon without anymore frustration!

  45. ok, so i read through all of your posts and i am very thankful for everyone’s concern for my friend. I just wanted to explain to you frined’s situation to make it more clear. My friend’s father is a little abusive. He is currently undergoing counseling and Buruch Hashem the situation in my friend’s home is now completely under control. My friend did undergo quite a dificult childhood. She did have a hard time as a child and there definately ups and downs. However, if you would meet my friend on the street and have a conversation with her, you would never be able to tell what kind of home she grew up in. She is extremely warm and caring and has a love for everyone. She however is not submissive and knows when to put her foot down. She did not always listen to what her father had to tell her. She went strictly according a to a rav’s ruling for what she was obligated to listen to and what she wasn’t. Her life was not easy, but she grew because of it, instead of just giving up. Now you are all probably thinking that i am this narrow minded girl, for not seeing how its possible for my friend to be affected by her uprbringing of her father. I have known this girl since we were in 5th grade. We were very close and she related to me when things were good and when things were not good. I do not believe that because she grew up in a difficult situation, she will be the same way to her children. In fact, she has related to me several times that she has seen a counselor specifically to help her and teach her and guide her how she is going to deal with people and raise a family.
    I was very impressed with #50 who suggested that she marry an out of towner and move away from everything. I think that would definately help alot. She is in so much pain because of her situation and its not even her fault. She is not a broken hearted wounded girl who is in misery about her situatin. In fact, she is one the strongest girls that i know, but its hard for her not be affected by it at all.
    bygirl, i am going to read your post again and respond soon

  46. LGBG

    sounds like you’ve coppied and pasted my prev comments cause thats pretty close to what i’ve written on theyeshivaworld.com.:) great minds think alike

  47. ohhhhhhhhhhh since when do we use theyeshivaworld for polotics between chassidim and litvaks!!!

    I come from heimish backround but dont dress that way does that make me no mans land:)

  48. thank you LGBG 🙂

    I most definitely try unfortunately its not easy with a society were guys and gals alike don’t know how too prioritize

  49. mashgiachru. and deliberatelely.(and to anyone else who read this.)

    im sorry that this sounded very inappropriate. i honestly didn’t mean to get personal and i don’t even know how IM works. please take my deepest apologies. thank you.

  50. LGBG

    click on the link contact YW in the upper left hand side of this page.

    ask him to give you my email address or vice versa.

    oh by the way, IM would be a great idea for all of you that posted prev.

  51. The shiduch might not work after all, considering that Who said What seems to have a screename on aim, while LGBG doesn’t know how aim works…..

  52. i’m like totally shocked!!! i mean it like totally blows me away! cuz how cd ppl actually think that InShidduchim was anything but a ridiculous parody of an airhead bubblegum-chewing superficial valley girl? Her post in #56 proves that. What does it say about our abysmal standards of literacy if no one (except for poor BYgirl who was castigated for her well-meaning editorial suggestion)even picked up on that?

  53. Just a side point concerning middos and shidduchim. Another suggestion; like the author said, we all came down to this world to work on our middos and on ourselves, sometimes something in a prospective shidduch doesn’t seem 100% right, but maybe it isn’t supposed to be that way, maybe Hashem is giving us a tool with which to overcome a middah, it will irritate you until you work on yourself and become a greater person than you were before. What would we all be like if everything in life was exactly as we want it/ imagine it/ dream it… we are here to work!! It’s not a reason to say no!

  54. hey #73…”i’m like totally shocked!!! i mean it like totaly blows me away!”
    wow!! you are really strong!! i feel terrible and i am sincerly apologize for my “abysmal standards of literacy”? im very sorry if i caused you pain in any way due to my sorrowful writing ability. i hope that you were able to sleep last night and that it didn’t bother you enough to affect your daily life. I have to admit howerver that i am simply appalled how you could harass me like that and call me “airhead bubblegum-chewing superficial valley girl”. i was quite insulted at that comment and even appaled at yeshivaworld for allowing such a nasty comment to appear on a “yeshivish” website. i was crying out for my friend who is having a dificult time with shidduchim. Im sorry if i wrote the word “like” too many times, but is that a reason for you to tear my letter to peices and rip my heart to shreds! and BTMOM, if you claim to be a mother, i am scared to know how you treat your own children, if this is how you refer to a bas yisroel (me!) please rethink this over. i want to comment on other comments. I appreciate other people’s concern for my friend, but i am too angry to write about it for the fear that i might Chas V’shalom cause BTMOM some pain for my “abysmal standards of literacy”.
    Sincerly
    a “airhead bubblegum-chewing superficial valley girl”

  55. INSHIDDUCHIM:
    I am really unsure what to write but I feel a need to respond. InShudduchim, please don’t take btmom’s words personally. I am pained that your pained. There are many instances in life when people say mean things, or when people say things that are perceived as mean and the only way to go on is to brush it off. It was defiantly a sharp and very interesting comment but why do you care what she thinks of you? As long as you know that your doing your best and doing the right thing, you should just forget about it. by the way, did you ever get in touch with LGBG? It just may be a Shidduch! Sorry, for teasing it’s just kinda funny. Hatzlacha to you and all of your endeavors.
    BTMOM: For Heavens Sake, how old are you? You talk like a tw0 year old. I don’t say that to many people but you definitely look like the type that could handle it. Why can’t you express yourself in a more aristocratic way. If your a mother then there are really issues to discuss. You may feel strongly but there is proper way to present what you have to say. Don’t you see that were dealing with a sensitive, hurting individual? She is pained and your just pouring salt of the wound? Are you so oblivious to her pain. Are you not able to read between the lines and feel her sorrow? Like everything in life there is a right way and a wrong way, and there is no doubt in my mind that you have chosen wrong. Hatzlacha to you, and Hashem should help you to be a sensitive,sweet, and caring person.

  56. ok first of all i really think i know you both in shuddichim and bygirl…. dont listen to BTMOM shes just trying to cause trouble

  57. for all of you who wanted to know weather i got in touch with lgbg the naswer is yes 🙂

    the two of us are working on shidduchim for the both of us you all might want to join