An Askan who worked tirelessly on the fight to save Martin Grossman’s life, and was Davening outside the Florida State Prison during the execution, just told YWN what transpired during the last few seconds of Martin Grossman’s life.
The Chabad Shaliach to Jacksonville Florida, Rabbi Nachum Kurinsky was with Martin.
“I would like to extend my heartfelt remorse to the victim’s family,” Grossman said. I fully regret everything that happened that night, everything that was done, whether I remember everything or not, I accept responsibility.”
Martin Grossman then began to recite Shema Yisroel with “deep concentration” – moving Rabbi Kurinsky to tears.
When he finished Shema, he paused, and his last two words were “Ahavas Yisroel”.
Please learn Mishnayos for Michoel Yechiel ben Avrohom A”H.
(Dov Gordon – YWN)
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56 Responses
Unbeliveable!!!!!!!!!!
From: Chaim Dovid Zwiebel
Agudath Israel of America | 42 Broadway 14th floor | New York | NY | 10004
Boruch Dayan Ha’emes.
I am writing to share with you the sad news that Martin Grossman, Michoel Yechiel ben Avrohom, olov hasholom, was executed this evening in Florida.
It would be understandable for any of us to feel not only sorrow but frustration that all our efforts didn’t result in the result for which we were mispallel.
But I personally choose, even amid the pain and sorrow, to focus on the tremendous ahavas Yisroel, shtadlonus and achdus that was demonstrated by our tzibbur over recent days. I want to personally thank all of you who telephoned Governor Crist’s office, or sent him e-mails and faxes, or participated in the ultimate act of ahavas Yisroel: tefilla on a brother’s behalf. Your reaction to the impending tragedy was remarkable. May it stand as a zechus for his neshoma, and for all of Klal Yisroel, and hasten bi’as go’el tzedek, b’mheira biyomeinu.
Chaim Dovid Zwiebel
Yehi Shem Hashem Mevorach mei-atah ve’ad olam. I’m told that Rabbi Avigdor Miller zatzal used to state a “Law of Reality” along the lines of: If something has happened in a particular way, it’s because Hashem wanted it to happen that way.” Hashem’s ways are totally just and righteous and kind and compassionate. If He wanted Michoel Yechiel ben Avraham to be executed, He presumably understood that after what Michoel Yechiel did, his neshomo would be better off in the Eternal World that way. What we can do for him now is say Kaddish, learn Mishnayos, and do teshuva ourselves, each one for his own affairs, and accept that whatever justice there may or may not be in the laws of Florida, Hashem’s ways are totally just. Yehi Shem Hashem Mevorach mei-atah ve’ad olam.
Why A”H it should be written H”YD he didnt die naturaly he was killed R”L. May hashem take revrenge on his spilled blood.
So sad. I agree with you Por. Still very sad.
Boruch Dayan Ha’emes.
While I did send Governor Crist an e-mail, imploring him to stay the execution, I did so with many questions. How would we be reacting if a horrible crime of this sort was perpetrated against a yid, and now, his co-religionists start pleading his case claiming that he is repentant? Would we be sympathetic to this? From the Governor’s perspective, would his acceptance of this sort of position not open the door to every lawyer pleading the same in every capital case? I guess the answer to these questions is that regardless, we must do whatever we can to save a yid from execution. So then it has nothing to do with the fact that he has seemingly become “frum” or remorseful- we must make every effort to save any yid, even if he is still not religious and still a completely hardened criminal. I’m not really clear on this.
#6, if you don’t know the difference then YOU are no different than a heartless terrorist. A young terrified kid, who is mixed up, scared and out of his mind doped up on drugs to self-medicate his pain and did not pre-meditatedly plan to hurt anyone can not be compared to a HAMAS terrorist who has evil and killing in his heart and blood.
We all mourn the loss of your friend Peggy and do not condone her death in any way. We also all felt that Martin should serve a punishment and should not go free even though not one of us believed that he would ever do it again. However, under the circumstances of his crime, we did not believe he should be put to death. For you and anyone else to believe that he deserved to die is just a vicious and vengeful ung-dly concept and totally without forgiveness and compassion. Even the Pope sent a message to the Governor asking for clemency.
If you cannot understand why this man who was just a young boy when this crime occurred should not have been put to death then I pity your soul, your children and your family because YOU will never be at a level where you can understand G-d’s ways.
I am #7 and obviously # 6 was removed. I apologize for any confusion. It was a comment from a friend of Peggy’s.
NOTE: your comment was in response to a comment which has since been deleted due to inappropriate language.
jojostudrock, I understand your anger (to a point) but at the end of the day, this crime was committed by a mentally incompetent. How could he possibly be held accountable? Oh right, we have OJ who was also held accountable. Maybe it’s not the crime that deserves punishment (& life without parole is not a bed of roses) but the perpetrator? Maybe if Martin Grossman A”H would have been a celebrity this debate wouldn’t be going on.
What’s done is done. As much as we all grieve, I hope you at least find some comfort. Then at least this legalized murder won’t be in vain.
#6, WE are not G-d and WE cannot ask for the death penalty because WE cannot judge the way Hashem does. There are many horrendous and evil crimes that are committed against yiddin and against goyim. There are all forms of punishments and retribution. But as a frum Jew we certainly don’t have the power and should not have the power to proclaim death to anyone.
Boruch Dayan Emes. I hope that this poor neshamah will now have peace. It is a horrible truth that a politician will care more about his career than the life of a human being. Even the fact that the Pope also begged for clemency for this individual did not touch his heart. But as I always believe Hashem is the ultimate score keeper and although he believes this move will help him politically, the fact that the Pope made this request which he ignored surely will have an effect at the polls come election time.
#4…As sad and tragic as this story is, I think using the appelation HY”D is a tremendous bezoyin to all our grandparents killed in the Shoah…
It is a tragedy and truly a sad day when a decision about ending the life of another human being is based, in large part, upon political expediency. Crist is in a fight for his political life against Marco Rubio(he is not well liked by Republicans – I am a registered Republican in the State of Florida – and the Democrats don’t really acknowledge his “middle of the road” policies) and tragically, Martin Grossman, A”H, was collateral damage. This would not have happened in a non-election year or if Crist’s toughness against crime would not be in question. Crist is not faring well against Marco Rubio in the polls and he will do whatever it takes to become a US Senator on his way to running for the Presidency. Fortunately, we, the frum and not yet frum Jewish voters in the State of Florida, have a long memory. Hashem yishmor es nishmas Michoel Yechiel ben Avraham.
#12. why should it be a bezoyn, our grandpernts go in to very differnt category of HY”D. but that does not take away why Martin HY”D cant also use the word HY”D???????!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bike @4:
The letters HY”D (הי״ד) are for Jews who were murdered, especially those who died for being Jewish. Martin Grossman was executed for being a murderer, under a system of justice that does not discriminate on the basis of religion. Remember that all of us who signed the petitions for clemency were not appealing the justice of the case but were rather asking for mercy.
As Jews who believe in Divine Justice and Divine Mercy, we hope that his death has served as atonement for the murder he commited, and we may now wish Alav Hashalom.
Boruch Dayan Haemes!
We must remember that we are really in golus. Ivan the terrible, who murdered and tortured tens of thousands of jews enjoyed a tranquil life on American soil and was not sentenced to death. We must remember that our only protection is torah and mitzvos and not depend on anyone but Hashem.
May we all be zoche to the geula shleima Amen!
It makes me sick to believe that the parent’s came all the way to florida just to see the execution! O.K. he killed their daughter. But he did teshuvah! I don’t know about you all but I wouldn’t want to see a good person die! He is in the middle of turning over a new leaf, for heavens sake! Let him finish!
I too think HY”D is inappropriate. Martin Grossman was executed in accordance with the laws in the greatest malchus shel chesed in history. On exactly who should Hashem’s “Nikomoh” come? looking at things from the Governor’s perspective, can he clearly be accused of being unreasonable? Wouldn’t a pardon in this case open up a pandora’s box to all lawyers making precisely the same pleas for clemency? Remember- he is not a yid and doesn’t run his government by da’as torah and shulchan aruch.
The person who the State of Florida executed today bore little resemblance to the the cop-killer of long ago. It was “that person” upon whom the death sentence was passed. We are saddened because it is not the same Grossman who was executed this evening.
Aries2756 – Much of what you have to say applies to a great many young offenders of all races and religions. Specifically:
“A young terrified kid, who is mixed up, scared and out of his mind doped up on drugs to self-medicate his pain and did not pre-meditatedly plan to hurt anyone . . .”
Those of you who truly believe what aries2756 writes will keep it in mind when the perpetrator is neither a Yid nor white. And even when the victim is a Yid.
Dina D’ Malchusa Dina;
There are far too many murderers who are not executed as they should be.
Every attack on the Death Penalty or attempt to save someone who is clearly guilty of murder will further help save those who most would agree deserve to pay for their evil crimes with the Death Penalty and will now be saved and thus endanger everyone including Jews.
I fully believe this attempt to save Grossman has endangered Jews everywhere and even though some Gedolim supported him I see no evidence that that all did or even any evidence that most Gedolim wanted this execution stopped.
I am #6 whose cmment was removed due to language that was never used!!! What a scam this site is,if they dont agree with what you say ,your comment will be deleated.I was an officer with Margret Parks and know more about this case than anyone on this site,and I know what her brains looked like scattered inside her patrol vehicle on that night 13 December 1984.Martin was not on drugs he said he was during his interview 25 December 1984 to avoid the Needle.Yes he is a terriost in American clothing.God Bless Israel!
We all do hold the same for anyone of the same situation. That doesn’t mean we will mobilize for any criminal getting unjust punishment. I cannot understand what irks the likes of you when we try to help a brother in his time of need.
Like I wrote on another thread, would the pope also request clemency for a non-Jew?
#23
the pope requests clemency in any case he is asked, because the Catholic church has an official blanket opposition to the death penalty.
i feel let down by the country in a most profound way. WOW, MY COUNTRY WOULD ACTUALLY FEEL THE MORAL OBLIGATION TO KILL ME FROM A DECISION I MADE DRUNK AT 19. the park cop just finished kicking his friend in the testicles and the 5 foot woman wanted to arrest them both. its against the laws of nature.
To JojoStudrock: How dare you say he’s a terrorist?
If a Jew was ever sentenced to death by a sanhedrin – which I stress Martin Grossman was not – it would make absolutely no difference whether he did teshuvah, expressed great remorse, became a “different person”, or anything of the sort. The blood of the slain cries out for vengeance for all the years of life he was denied (listen to Rabbi Miller). And he is put to death regardless. So, although there may be merit in the other objections to this execution, and the Shulchan Aruch will object to a bais din akum executing a Yisroel, why does it surprise you if the governor, according to civil law, was disinterested in Mr. Grossman’s repentance? Why is that relevant?
if you do the crime u must pay the price.
the only thing that happened here that we lost out stregth.
as we all got united and pushed as hard as we could we got nothing.
next time don’t fight the fight you know you are going to lose
To #26,grossman[I refuse to use upper case with his name]Bashed her brains with a Kel-light,knocking her OUT,she was unable to protect herself at that point,as these two strong young animals could have ran away they instead chose to finish the job by taking her S&W Mod27 with a 158 grain hollow point and shoot her in the back of the head.Remember he said he was under the influence 10 days later.His IQ was enough that he hid for 10days.I wish I could have served the warrant,oops he tried to escape!! shalom,God bless Israel.
I am a Christian law enforcement officer in the State of Florida. I am grateful and proud of my faith as I can tell most of the people posting here are. This is not about Judaism or any other Faith. This is about the life we live in the world as we know it. I have faith that my God feels the pain that the wildlife Officer and her family must have and are enduring….as well as the murderer’s family….I do not celebrate the killing of another human being. I do feel some peculiar satisfaction that as a law enforcement officer, notice has been sent that we, as a society will not tolerate murdering those who swear to protect and serve, even if it takes 25 yrs. I also pray that we all recognize this situation for what it is….not political…not faith dependant…..but a 19yr old man, not living according to God’s plan, that resulted in the brutal murder of an innocent woman working for something greater than herself.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/martin-grossman#post-119462
“I fully regret everything that happened that night, everything that was done….”
I oppose the death penalty, but look at his words….not “I regret what I did” but rather “what happened”….not “everything I did” but “everything that was done.” These are NOT the words of a man who accepts responsibility. Sorry to those of you who see it otherwise
Martin Grossman had an IQ of 77. That means that his mental age was 4 years and 7 months old.
The Supreme Court in 2002 banned the execution of mentally retarded inmates with IQs of 70 or below in Atkins v. Virginia, 01-8452.
As a result a number of inmates throughout the country with IQ’s in the mentally retarded range had their death sentences commuted.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/sentence-reversals-mental-retardation-cases
In fact in FL, as a result of Atkins v. Virginia, three inmates have had their death sentences reduced when experts found them to be mentally retarded, in similar intelligence rangse to that of Martin Grossman but of course none of the other inmates were Jewish.
1-We are in galus;galus is in us. Just as the plagues were not sent for the Mitzrim, but for the Jews, so this happening was sent for us. Gov. Crist will, eventually and naturally, be out of this world. Am Israel will continue and will continue to be obligated to serve HKB. It does not become us to prolong the agony of Ms. Park’s family, nor the grief of Michiel’s family, by pontificating about justice.
2-The morbid attraction of watching someone being executed by akum is part of what constitutes galus. (TV and video games
encapsulate this.)
3-Indeed, we are only, and thankfully, servants of HKB, and our tafkid is learn and do what He wants. “Evaluating” what our gedolim said and say is not our privilege.
4-How many of the thousands who sent e-mails and made phone calls for this Michoel Grossman are pursuing the cause of Jonathan Pollard, who has been ignored by three U.S. presidents?
How sad, that a Christian FL law enforcement officer (#30), was able to express the true nature of this case better and more honestly than all YWN apologists. Looks like HKB showed Grossman as much mercy and consideration as Grossman showed his victim. The only difference was that Grossman’s victim was an innocent soul.
Oops! According to some on Ynet, I’m supposed to wrote “Martin Grossman הי”ד” and say תהילים for his נשמה. Why do I feel less than moved?
In retrospect, I think ALL Orthodox Jews, whether they read the תניא or not pretty much subscribe to the principle that a נכרי is less human than a יהודי. And you don’t have to go far to find a plethora of passages and מאמרי חז’לֹ that essentially establish this without need to blame דווקא the Lubavs or the more outlandish.
The שולחן ערוך itself proscribes various activities when committed against a שאינו יהודי as not אסור מעיקר הדין but something that one should refrain from מפני שלום הבריות.
Thus, to a traditional, Orthodox Jew, Martin Grossman’s crime was less than criminal, in a halakhic sense, but his execution by the גוים and the goyische state contravene traditional, Orthodox sensibilities and beliefs. For that reason, the most eminent of Orthodox leaders seemed to have no qualms putting their good names and reputations on the line to benefit some no-good bum who shot and beat an innocent woman (who was, after all, a shiksa).
I bet Abe Foxman, David A. Harris and all those Committee/ADL types are still wincing from anxious hand-wringing over the highly publicised, 11th hour outburst from the most respected of Orthodox personages.
Borninthebronx…..You should not compare this situation to what wud have taken place in Sanhedrin because Gemara says they RARELY took someones’s life, if I recall correctly: within 80 years only 1 person was put to death… Now compare this statistic to one in Florida where last 40 years or so 67 pp were executed!! Sanhedrin took their job very very seriously and they also valued human life greatly! There were NO political agendas with” being republican”…. they would search for any possible zechus kula it circumstance y not to take life away- the whole concept of eved ivri, jewish slave, is rehabilitation!!!
this is what i wrote to the governor after the execution…
Governor Crist,
Because you did not heed the voice of the masses who shout in harmony the song of reason, because you have shown yourself as a careless dancer in the china shop of justice, you have shot blindfolded through the gloomy haze wearing nothing but legal briefs and emerged shapeshifted from the sequestered cocoon of convenient indifference a disfigured clone of your intended target. You have become a killer.
The drunken masquerade of the unjust must come to an end, and you stand pale faced, lime lit, as crimson curtains draw closed in the empty jesters court.
To comment #22 (#6) – jojostudrock. I totally agree with you that what this person did was horrendous and heinous, and I sympathize with the family of Margaret Parks. He murdered this young lady and I’m so sorry for that. However, I fail to see how he can be called a terrorist. Very sorry for your loss.
To #30 – fllawofcr – Thank you for your post.
Wait a minute. Isn’t setting up a court system one of the sheva mitzvos bnei Noach? And is n’t that court supposed to give the death penalty? Does their mitzvah change if it is applied to a Jew? I’m serious, I want to know. Wasn’t the court doing what they were supposed to do, even if they weren’t doing it as Bnei Noach per se? I would like some input from someone who knows some halacha.
aengler,
With regard to the false idiocy that you post, let me be clear that a number of Orthodox leaders were moved to get involved in the Troy Davis case after they were told of this. This case simply came to the forefront due to its outrageousness and because a rabbi developed a personal interest in this case. We don’t care whether it was a Jew or not. We care that a 19 year old kid who freaked got the death penalty – which never happens. Did this happen because he was a Jew? Maybe and that’s a better question to ask. Do I feel 1,000 times more sorry for Peggy Park? Yes. But the death penalty is administered in less than 3% of murder cases and never in a case like that, where there was no clear premeditation.
You know, as much as we all have our oponions- we defeinitely are not G-d and should somewhat be ashamed to judge the situation… Who are we to say if someone deserves to be punished or not… or if someone made the right decision or not. Hashem has a master plan- we tried to do our hishtadlus, and the rest we leave up to Him, with great faith. Baruch Dayan HaEmes.
To #26 “the only thing that happened here that we lost out strength.
….as we all got united and pushed as hard as we could we got nothing.”
IMHO, G-D hears and answers EVERY prayer. Sometimes the answer is “no.”
Not Charlie Crist but our G-D, who has parted waters, who sees and knows all and whose justice is perfect, chose the path that Martin Grosssman walked last night. I do not rage against his decision.
#23, 24 It is incorrect that the Catholic church has a blanket anti-death penalty position. They consider it “extrema ratio” but not forbidden, provided there is a fair process, fair defense, etc (obviously all lacking in this case). There have been many voices among catholics asking for a different position, but never they have been successful.
Pope Ratzinger did the right thing and arranged a letter to be sent.
#13 you are correct and all yidden and all decent people should see to it that this marks the end of his career, amen.
#32 we now wait for the true facts to surface and what really happened that night, it won’t take long.
#34 not everyone has forgotten Yehonatan Pollard.
How can anyone in their right mind express shock and dismay when a ben noach medina, Florida State, does exactly what Hashem told them to do. One mitzva of a ben noach to establish a judicial system. Another mitzva is to execute a murderer, clearly stated in the Torah to Noach after the mabul. True we as Yidden, rachmonim bnei rachmonim, had to show the outpouring of pleas for his life. But to put an article about this acknowledged murderer in a section called Bechatzros hakodesh? Since when is a murderer in cold blood called kodesh? Even if he allegedly became a baal tshuva and davened 3 times a day, as his lawyer suggested to do in a clear ploy to save his life. Did he express ahavas nishmas odom when he killed the Park Ranger in cold blood as she lay helpless on the floor, for no reason?
hereorthere :
Please STOP applying “dina d’malchuta dina” to this case! It does not apply where the secular law contradicts Torah law!
Capital punishment can only be carried out by a Bet Din. Secular courts have no jurisdiction over a Jewish life. There were not 2 witnesses to the crime as is required for mitat bet din. He killed a nochriah, for which the punishment would not be death anyway.
Torah teaches us to judge a fellow favorably when it seems he walked into a non-Kosher restaurant. Do you believe you can decide who does and does not deserve to be KILLED?! No one was asking that he be released! We were asking that he be left in jail for life. Why does this hurt you so much?
Torah law is our law and Torah law is that it was our responsibility to do everything we could to help him. Even if you’ll argue that he WAS a menace to society, this is not for us to think or say but even if you would- that was 25 YEARS ago, the man has been rotting in jail and doing teshuva all this time, he seems to have changed from that child that he was. Why are you so adamant?
I agree with #3 to a good degree. And, perhaps, his final words have redeemed him for all eternity. In that sense, he is not so bad off now.
Nochrim are supposed to and allowed to give the death penalty for murder. They don’t need 2 eidim as long as they are killing people who actually committed murder. We should commend the State of Florida and the governor for doing the right thing and executing a rotzeach. Yasher Koach.
MichelleNY
I have news for you. The State of Florida is not governed by Halacha.
#47, michelleny
you are incorrect, the courts have the ability, in the view of the jewish religion, to impose the death penalty. you are 100% incorrect on the matter.
the gemara in bava metzia discusses the issue, many gemaras in sanhedrin as well.
according to many meforshim, the reason that shchem was killed out by shimon and levy was because they did not kill the criminal!
I am saddened by the very callous tone of some of the many commentators. Would anybody say those same things if Martin was their brother or son? I think not. No one would rationalize the death penalty for their own whatever the law of the land was. We are one people from one family and Martin was our brother. Chazal tell us that any one who lacks the trait of being merciful is not from the children of Avrohom. Chazal also say that a Sanhedrin that killed once in 70 years was a murderous court. Therefore to all who said “he deserved it or too bad that’s the law” I say check your lineage because I don’t think you’re jewish. The Sanhedrin almost never carried out the death penalty because it looked for any zechus possible. They didn’t just write off the defendant and neither should we have.
#52, let’s try to put your words in a different prespective. Would YOU change your opinion if this was a 19 year old black who killed the Ranger in cold blood? Would you also say, spare him, what if he were your brother or son.
If anyone’s reading this, I just want to give what I feel is an authentic representation of how Jews of faith should view what occurred, based on our holy sources and traditions.
The Jewish people has a long and detailed collective memory that spans millenia. As long as prophecy and the Temple are not restored, we remain in a state of exile. In all of our many wanderings and centuries of persecution, until the last century we never found a land which offered, let alone guaranteed, true freedom. We found on these shores not just freedom, but prosperity and opportunity as well, with G-d’s blessings. Our number one obligation as citizens is to show appreciation for the blessings that America bestows upon us, to treat others the way we ourselves wish to be treated, by respecting our rights and responsibilities to fellow citizens, regardless of their race or creed.
Only two ancient nations, Amon and Moab, were eternally banned from membership in the Jewish nation, because they did not show the trait of “hakaras hatov” — appreciation to someone who has bestowed goodness upon you. There is no single nation to whom we owe more hakaras hatov than the United States, and every frum Jew should say, “G-d bless America!” (I heard this from Rabbi Avigdor Miller of blessed memory.)
How fortunate we are that our legal system is blind to race and creed! Each government has the Divine right to enforce the law of the land as it sees fit. In the not-so-distant past, this meant the king meting out punishment in accordance to his opinions, moods, and whims. Nobody would have deliberated over a lone Jew’s death penalty for 25 years. And nobody would have cared about what his rabbis or lawyers had to say. (And the Torah gave legitimacy to this authority as well, going so far as to define a “king” as someone who holds life and death in his hands.)
If we act as if we “own the place,” then not only will we offend our fellow citizens, but we also show a lack of gratitude to G-d Himself. Do we take it for granted that He has priveleged us to live in a land of freedom and prosperity? Do we act as if we deserve it, as if it’s “coming to us”? We should stand before G-d each day with humble gratitude for the freedom we enjoy.
At the same time, since we do enjoy the same rights and priveleges as others, we have an obligation to make our voice heard on behalf of a brother in distress. The Jewish rabbis and organizations who became involved in Martin’s case, were not asking for favoritism. If only 3% of convicted murderers get the death penalty (I’m relying on other peoples’ comments for that statistic), then why should it be carried out on someone who at the time of the crime was a reckless, thoughtless teenager, and who since then has shown true remorse and repentance (as testified by his last words)? The Park family had a right to express their desire to see the execution, but by the same token Martin’s family had the right to plead for his life.
This whole saga serves as a wonderful testimony that we as the Jewish people really are, and act, as one great family. Never at the expense of our responsibility to others, but rather in addition to our role as good citizens.
There’s no reason why our effort to save Martin’s life can’t go hand-in-hand with sympathy and understanding for the Park family’s grief and distress. We were not there to save Peggy Park’s life. But we did what we could to save Martin Grossman’s life, because that is what you do when you are family.
Our Jewish family does not plead for our brother indiscriminantly. You can see that from the wide range of opinions expressed on this post. It’s clear that the depth of our support stemmed from a feeling that the condemned was worthy of compassion, at least to the degree of others like him who were spared the death sentence. True, we did not get involved like Amnesty International, because of our dedication to fighting the death penalty. We got involved because it was our own brother’s plea. Should we be faulted for our mutual dedication?
#54. well put avrech.
i don’t know who’s right but reading some of the comments here proclaiming exactly what the halacha requires in this case, definitely help us understand what chazal mean when they say דעת בעלי בתים היפך מדעת תורה