Dear Mr. Schein,
We thank you for your letter to YWN, and we at YWN would like to respond to your remarks in the spirit of open communication, honesty, and integrity. Quite candidly, your attack on the representative of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel who responded to your 2007 activities in Uruguay was, in our view, a gross misrepresentation of what he said, as well as taking his words entirely out of context.
The representative never advocated “gratuitous cruelty” as your next paragraph implies. You write: It is a shame that to the general public, the image of kosher meat has degenerated from the proud, classic slogan “We answer to a higher authority” to “Gratuitous cruelty to animals does not disqualify the meat.”
The Torah has numerous commandments which include “Tzaar Baal Chaim” as well as “honoring one’s parents.” If someone were to run a slaughterhouse where the laws of honoring one’s parents were consistently violated – this does not disqualify the meat. The representative of the Chief Rabbinate merely wanted to get this point across that according to Jewish law, unless otherwise noted, disqualifying meat based upon Kashrus only takes into account the laws of Kashrus and NOT other Jewish laws.
Therefore, technically, if one violated the laws of Yom Kippur itself and slaughtered on that day – the meat would not be disqualified.
The issue therefore does not mean to take Tzaar Baalei Chaim lightly – because according to Jewish law a violation of Yom Kippur itself does not disqualify the meat.
Your letter implies that you have a certain degree of familiarity with Jewish law. It is hoped that this was a mere misunderstanding of his statement on your part, and not a disingenuous attempt to characterize his words in an attempt to score points.
You write that many kosher consumers are disturbed by how tza’ar ba’alei chayim has been relegated to an afterthought in kosher meat production. Please, Mr. Schein, it is hardly an afterthought. Are there areas that need improvement? Yes. But you will not find the cruelty that in the past has characterized the secular meat industry.
And you know that to be true.
On the other hand Mr. Schein we recall quite well when Palestinian terrorists were loading explosives onto donkeys to murder innocent Israeli civilians, and your lovely organization found it in your organizational heart to request of the Palestinians not to use donkeys. Oh, so lovely.
Which brings us to your next line: “For PETA, tza’ar ba’alei chayim is our primary focus.”
Please Mr. Schein, let’s be honest and candid. Your use of the term implies that you subscribe to the Mitzvah – but Mitzvos in Judaism are performed because they are the will of G-d as Divinely revealed to us on Mount Sinai.
Your use of the term, when you reject other aspects of our religion, such as Kosher meat preparation in general, the Jewish concept of the elevation of the animal’s soul when its skin is used for Tefillin and for the writing of the Torah is just plain dishonest.
Our religion believes that honesty is the seal of the Holy One Blessed Be He. Your words do not reflect that you share that ideal with us either.
Another case in point: You write “Similarly, PETA’s investigations into the kosher slaughter industry were never about shechita..”
I am sorry, but this too is just plain dishonest. Your literature has complained about Shechita and has advocated vegetarianism for the longest time. More than any other organization in this country – you have stood against Shechita.
Please Mr. Schein, you and PETA should learn from others as well. If you wish to open a line of communication with the world that is Kosher – take the first step commit to honesty and integrity.
(YWN Staff Writer)
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65 Responses
Its so nice of him to be concerned about the ‘mitzva’ of animal cruelty however I would be willing to bet he has little to no knowledge of the other Six Hundred Twelve commandments.
In response to YWN’s response:
PETA’s undercover investigation this past December, at the largest kosher slaughterhouse in Uruguay, exposed that the Chief Rabbinate failed to fulfill its promise to phase out “shackle and hoist” kosher slaughter despite admitting that this method causes more suffering to the cows. My point was a simple one – even if one holds that the technical kosher status of the meat is divorced from tza’ar ba’alei chayim, it still compromises the image of kashrut and the integrity of the entire process. The Chief Rabbinate has now pledged to enforce its ban on importing “shackle and hoist” meat from South America.
You are mistaken. PETA literature has never targeted shechita itself. This is just not true.
You are correct about the line: “For PETA, tza’ar ba’alei chayim is our primary focus.” I agree with you that I should have written “in reducing cruelty and suffering” instead of putting it in those terms.
Many hashgachos are makpid on things that have nothing to do with kashrus. The badatz pulled its hashgacha from pepsi when it ran ads depicting man evolving from an ape. It threatened to remove its hashgacha from tnuva because of a picture of a dinosaur on its yogarts. The OU removed its hashgacha from glatt yacht because it did not approve of the ruach on the boat. Milk that is milked on shabbos is not considerd kosher by many authoroties. It is highly doubtful that the chief rabbi would give a hashgacha to meat slaughtered on Yom Kippur. Why not apply that same standard to tzaar balei chayim?
Would that Mr. Schein & his dubious cohorts were as concerned about HUMANS as they are about animals. I sincerely hope he & his family never have to choose between a life-saving drug tested on animals & watching a loved one die.
And while I’m at it, I’m still waiting, Mr. Schein, for you to say if you are satisfied with what happened to Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin & HIS family as a result of your work.
Very well written. It is interesting how Mr. Schein ignores the items in the letter which do not fare well with his statement. It is also interesting how he says that PETA is not against Shechita, when their own website states that Animals are not ours to; eat, wear, etc. Don’t take my word for it. The following link says it for me. http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-uncompromisingstands.asp
Why do some kashurus organizations take some Mitzvos into account when giving out hechsherim (like if the waitresses were dressed extremely inappropriately) but not others (like tza’ar ba’alei chaim)? If a hechsher is just a verification that the food is kosher, why take anything into account other than the actual kashrus? And if a hechser is a general seal of approval for eating in this place, or eating such food, why would a hechsher approve an organization that violates an issur (like tza’ar ba’alei chaim, assuming an actual issur without a heter is being violated)?
Here are some quotes directly from their website:
People who support animal rights believe that animals are not ours to use for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation, or any other purpose and that animals deserve consideration of their best interests regardless of whether they are cute, useful to humans, or endangered and regardless of whether any human cares about them at all (just as a mentally challenged human has rights even if he or she is not cute or useful and even if everyone dislikes him or her).
Founded in 1980, PETA is dedicated to establishing and defending the rights of all animals. PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment. PETA educates policymakers and the public about animal abuse and promotes kind treatment of animals.
Here’s an example of heir immorality:
PETA launched its “Rather Go Naked Than Wear Fur” campaign with the help of the popular rock band The Go-Go’s in 1991 to raise awareness about the millions of animals who are trapped, drowned, beaten, and electrocuted for their fur. Since then, thousands of compassionate people have bared their bodies for a variety of PETA campaigns to help animals in need.
If you’re looking for the best way to help animals, you’ve come to the right place! The food industry kills more animals than laboratories, fur farmers, trappers, circuses, and hunters combined. Cutting meat, eggs, and dairy products from your diet makes an enormous difference—you will save more than 100 animals every year just by switching to a healthy, vegan diet. In this section, we’ll show you how to multiply your impact many times over by encouraging people in your community to follow your lead.
From other websites:
“Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS we’d be against it.” – Ingrid Newkirk, co-founder and president of PETA in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989
I Am an Animal: The Story of Ingrid Newkirk and PETA
“When it comes to pain,love, joy,loneliness, and fear, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.” – Ingrid Newkirk
More of her quotes:
“I openly hope that it [hoof-and-mouth disease] comes here. It will bring economic harm only for those who profit from giving people heart attacks and giving animals a concentration camp-like existence. It would be good for animals, good for human health and good for the environment.”
— ABC News interview, Apr 2001
“Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses. [emphasis added]”
— The Washington Post, Nov 1983 (INSULTING!!!)
“Probably everything we do is a publicity stunt … we are not here to gather members, to please, to placate, to make friends. We’re here to hold the radical line.”
— USA Today, Sep 1991
“Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective. We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.”
— Ingrid Newkirk, in the April 8, 2002 issue of US News & World Report , Apr 2002
“Eating meat is primitive, barbaric, and arrogant.”
— Washington City Paper, Dec 1985
“There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals.”
— Washingtonian magazine, Aug 1986
“I will be the last person to condemn ALF [the Animal Liberation Front].”
— The New York Daily News, Dec 1997
“There is no hidden agenda. If anybody wonders about — what’s this with all these reforms — you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation. [emphasis added]”
— “Animal Rights 2002” convention, Jun 2002
FROM THE TOP DOWN PETA IS FULL OF INSANE AND IMMORAL FANATICS!!!!
#6 simcha613; Because for one thing, there are vast differences between what Torah decides is tza’ar ba’alei chaim, and what those who do not follow Torah, want to JUDGE it to be.
Radical animal rights groups love to throw around terms like tza’ar ba’alei chaim, and in the non Jewish world terms like “cruelty to animals”, when their true agenda is to cover up for their cruelty that they enjoy inflciting on humans.
So many of these animal advocates just can’t wait (according to their own posts, that I have seen elsewhere, like on youtube) to get ahold some some human and do far worse to them then has ever been done to any animal in history.
This is what Germany was like under their Fuhrer, who ws a big animal lover, even while the concentration camps were going full blast.
let all these “animal rights” terrorists who love to balme Jews for all cruelty and who post peoples personal phone numbers and home addresses on the internet and then advocate going there and torturing entire families to death, end their vicious hatred of and desire to do cruelty to humans and only THEN would have any right whatsoever, to talk about how animals are treated.
#3 they have plenty to do with kashrus….will sombody knowledgable please eelaborate? dont have time. yes , one cant give hasgacha on a product lets say if its on billboard all over the highway with lewd pictures as was the case with the bedatz many years ago. can a hechsher be give to a hotel thats caters to, i dont want to mention shmutz on torah site,lustful things? can a hechsher be given on a bar that has caters to topl…?no!!
The OU will not allow food to be served in a room where there is chillul shabbos going on.
but the bottom line is, torah umitzvos are totally irrelavent to these people of peta so why stand behind something you dont beleve in just when it suits your agenda
Mr. Schein, If you do know how to learn a mishna, please see Avodah Zorah Perek 3, Mishna 1. See there that Rebbe Yehudah allows cutting off the (live)chickens toe so that a non-jewish purchaser will not commit idol worship with it. One is NOT obligated to lose out on the sale of even ONE chicken even though there might be pain to it.
6,
For you benefit I will reiterate something I have posted on many occasions.
The Torah has different halachos as to what is tzar ba’alay chaim tha peta yemach sh’mom does. Don’t allow yourself to get caught up in the peta yemach sh’mom definition while ignoring the Torah’s definition. For example, the Torah says how we shecht a bird brought as a korbon olah, yet peta yemach sh’mom v’zichrom would be screaming chai v’kaayom about the ‘cruelty’ of that sh’chita method.
We always need to remember, v’hi she’omda refers also to people who want us to stop doing our mitzvos. Peta yemach sh’mom v’zichrom is in that category.
I’m sorry to inform Mr. Schein that if 100 animals can be shechted in an hour vs 50 which will make the cost of kosher meat go down, a competent Rav should be consulted as to whether or not the supposed tzar baalei chayim should be a consideration (as long as no laws are being broken). That’s the Torah way and that’s what we orthodox jews believe in and live by. I know it would be hard for Mr Schein to understand having been raised as an assimilated jew but we orthodox jews don’t steal or kill not because logic tells us its wrong but because the Torah does. Similarly we don’t practice tzar baalay chayim when the torah as interpreted through mesorah tells us not to but when the torah tells us v’zavachta v’achalta and a whole mesechta of chulin discusses how to and how not to shecht that is how we have to live our life. No other adjustments are necessary.
Mr. Schein,
A simple question which has been brought up quite a few times today; please have the courage to respond.
Have you ever learned, studied and really tried to understand the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim? Or do you feel that whatever you and PETA believe is cruelty to animals constitutes tza’ar ba’alei chayim?
One more thing I’d like to know about Mr Schein is where he stands on the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Truth be told if he is a real animal lover he probably sides with the am hadomeh l’chamor
ywn should have learned by now not to allow such morons like schein to have any platform even if the intentions of ywn was good. I know you guys probebly regret posting mr scheins letter. I sure hope so.
This is a worthless dialogue. Each side is talking past the other, and neither will compromise.
Just drop it. PETA will disappear in time; the Torah will not.
If Mr Schein & PETA are truly interested in opening a line of communication with the Orthodox community, it should be done through umbrella Organizations such as major Kashrus agencies or Agudah. Such forums are obviously not the place to start.
#17 and #18, Yes ‘eventually’ all Evil will disappear and Moshiach will be here (May it be soon, today even…).
In the meantime though terrorist groups like PETA and ASPCA and Humaine Society and the ALF etc…
Will continue to gain power and spread the idea that they and their followers have the right to suddenly burst into someone house and take out the family and kill them just because some liar ‘accused’ them of animal abuse.
These groups and their followers are making me feel like I am living in Germany in the late 1920’s even more so then the Islamics who are taking over the world, and who sided with all the animal nutcases against the Jews.
Of course once the Islamics take over they will kill all the Animal rights types who sided with them, as “infidels”.
The Islamic terrorists will not tolerate these animal terrorists, for a second :-0
If Peta really cares about living creatures-animals it should care for human beings- You should be screaming long and loud to protest the harsh treatment of Mr Rubashkin and the very very harsh sentence that is proposed for him-Your silence and passivity in that matter shows how you are prejudiced and blinded by your narrow one theme goal. I f you emphasize sensitivity to animals only – you end up doing many many other immoral actions-cruelty to humans to name one
It is admirable to be sensitive to animals-but if you only think of animals and not all other areas you end up being insensitive to humans and much worse.
in our Torah we have the story of Lot who learned that kindness/hospitality to guests is a very important virtue. He carried it too far and was willing to give his daughters to horrible people to live with because he lost his sense of balance of when to do kindness and when not (he certainly was not kind to his own daughters as you are certainly not kind to Mr Rubashkin by not screaming long and hard to not give him such a harsh sentence-which your organization helped to put him in such a predicament)
There is a story we learned that there was a person who was very concerned about not stepping on ants-he carried this so far that he ended up killing a person)
Please have proper perspective which our rabbis teach us to do and stop being cruel to humans in your over zealousness to be sensitive to animals . learning our torah overtime with good teachers would give you that healthy balance so that yes you would sensitize people to not being cruel to animals-but at the same time being sensitive to all of our other responsibilities in this world
Dear Mr. Schein – please respond to these accusations against your organization that claims hypocrisy to the nth degree!
http://petakillsanimals.com/
In response to #14 Ani Oymer:
“Competent Ravs” have been consulted. The OU clearly opposes “shackle and hoist”. We met with them in March 2010 before the release of our recent undercover Uruguay investigation. The Chief Rabbinate also opposes “shackle and hoist”. The ban now needs to be enforced.
In response to #15 dover shkarim:
There is not a lot of ambiguity when tracheas are being hacked out of still-conscious cattle and animals are struggling to their feet three minutes after their throats have been cut. However you define it, however you frame it (as tza’ar ba’alei chayim or a secular legal concept of cruelty), the suffering is extreme, unnecessary and a violation.
Mr. Schein,
How will PETA respond to all the extreme and bizarre statements made by Ingrid Newkirk?
How will PETA respond to the statement the organization released after an explosive laden donkey was detonated for the purpose of jihad. The statement condemning terrorists for using animals to perpetuate their need to commit genocide?
If I receive no response, I understand… as there is nothing to say!
In response to #4 bestbubby:
Bestbubby wrote:
“And while I’m at it, I’m still waiting, Mr. Schein, for you to say if you are satisfied with what happened to Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin & HIS family as a result of your work.”
Rubashkin received only a slap on the wrist in 2005 after the USDA determined that PETA was correct and Agriprocessors “had engaged in acts of inhumane slaughter” in violation of the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act.
Agriprocessors did come under more scrutiny because of this investigation. However, the current trials of Rubashkin have nothing to do with his cruel treatment of animals. These trials are about bank fraud, child labor etc. What is happening to Rubashkin and his family is the result of Rubashkin’s decisions to engage in illegal activities – not the result of PETA’s work. I hope he receives a fair sentence so everyone can put this chapter behind us and move on to useful discussions about improving animal welfare at Agri-Star.
BS”D
As I will soon be in E”Y I would very much appreciate a list of mehadrin shechitas that use shackle and hoist.
I will try my best to eat these schechitas exclusively. (I don’t weigh 600 kilo but I’m not small and I happen to have a minor medical issue that compels me to eat large amounts of meat especially during the hot EY summer).
I have raised pets and I know what the level of feeling of an animal is, especially a dying one, and I also know how an animal twitches after death. The only tzaar is that caused to the ehrlicher businessmen and their families who are ruined by this kind of animal rights terrorism which indeed is mesira. Schein is a moiser and may Hashem deal with him as he should deal with all of the dwek at the bottom of our society.
The question is, would shackle and hoist be appropriate when preparing a PETA activist for kapoores?
To the PETA animal lovers!
Please note the following:
while the prevention of animal cruelty was part of the Nazi platform, burning one and half Jewish babies was not.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_in_Nazi_Germany
There was widespread support for animal welfare in Nazi Germany[1] and the Nazis took several measures to ensure protection of animals.[2] Many Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler and Hermann Göring, were supporters of animal protection. Several Nazis were environmentalists, and species protection and animal welfare were significant issues in the Nazi regime.[3] Heinrich Himmler made efforts to ban the hunting of animals.[4] Göring was an animal lover and conservationist.[5] The current animal welfare laws in Germany are modified versions of the laws introduced by the Nazis.[6]
In response to RagachoversAssistant:
Please. The Nazis also had anti-smoking campaigns to combat lung cancer. I suppose you would argue that anybody who thinks smoking is unhealthy is using Nazi logic.
In response to #22 Softwords:
Why We Euthanize
http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/03/why_we_euthaniz.php
I actually don’t really get the big deal of the shackle. Do you think the animal should be killed on an office chair? Just because an overturned tight hall doesn’t give the animal a chance to shake, doesn’t mean that it is not more confused and frightened.
While animals have emotions, they definately do not have the deep psychological emotions that humans have, that are based on intellect. A human can die from bad news. An animal wont.
Like Benjamin Franklin said, if a fish can eat a fish, so can I.
In response to Halelujah #25:
Fair question. Several people have brought up the letter to Arafat regarding the donkey laden with explosives, who was intentionally blown up in Jerusalem. The letter in no way was an endorsement of using other means to detonate terrorist bombs. The letter was a condemnation of using animals for military or terrorist purposes.
Here is an excerpt: “The U.S. Army abandoned thousands of loyal service dogs in Vietnam. Al-Qaeda and the British government have both used animals in hideously cruel biological weaponry tests.”
Ingrid Newkirk spoke at a non-violence conference attended by Israelis and Palestinians and condemned the gratuitous violence inflicted on all humans and animals and spoke about how these forms of violence are connected. The title of her talk was “Nonviolence Includes Animals” and a documentary was made from this presentation:
Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn335vewMnc
Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mujT4Q7j-nQ&feature=related
Part 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch9vzObh0GY&feature=related
I urge you to watch this video and then
share your comments. Thank you.
In response to #31 HaLeivi:
Animals are profoundly affected by fear and stress. And stress/pain/fear are some of the major physiological causes of prolonged consciousness after shechita. “Shackle and hoist” is not a humane restraint method as you described.
Please watch this PETA undercover video of “shackle and hoist” kosher slaughter:
https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=3052
In “shackle and hoist” kosher slaughter, cattle are tripped to the ground and forcibly restrained while their legs are chained. Panicked cows are turned upside down prior to slaughter while workers stand on their legs and use a sharp metal instrument called the “devil’s fork” to pin their heads down and expose their necks for the kosher slaughter cut. After the cut, the cattle immediately are hoisted by one leg to be bled out—during this procedure, most of the animals are still conscious and able to feel pain.
Mr Schein: please explain these few quotes that were posted above, and how I as a civilized intelligent human being am supposed to take an organization that says these things seriously.
“Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses. [emphasis added]”— The Washington Post, Nov 1983
“Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS we’d be against it.” – Ingrid Newkirk, co-founder and president of PETA in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989
“There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals.”— Washingtonian magazine, Aug 1986
(You can’t just keep ignoring the questions you don’t like, resopond to the ones you have an answer for, and assume no one here will notice)
#34 Yitzyy: While I’m in no way interested in striking any alliance with Mr. Phillip Schein, as his ideology is totally void of any belief in HASHEM YISBORACH, I would however like to state that it is probably ASSUR Al Pi Halacha to test medical experiments on rats. Since when is it muttar to be transgess a halacha of tzaar baalei chaim for the sake of a man created benefit of saving lives?! Wasn’t everyone in EY against removing bones in Ashkelon eventhough there was a purpose of saving lives with more available emergency rooms built?!
Why do you confuse movement for consciousness? As the Gemara says, the tail of a lizard will wiggle for a long time after being severed. In the human, (ever heard of that?) many of our actions are done without consciousness. This is known as reflexes. A reflex can even be a response to something. Reflexes actually originate in the spinal cord, not in the brain.
So you noticed the animal trying to stand. Somehow that is translated to consciousness. Even if that were a response to something, which doesn’t seem to be the case, it doesn’t mean it is conscious.
If you noticed that fear extended the animals movement. I don’t know how you proved that, but it would only show that the panic commands and chemicals released into the body are running their course.
By the way, I said that while animals have emotions, they don’t have the deep level of a human emotion that stems from the intellect. In order to argue with me, you misconstrued my point. That doesn’t say much good about your argument.
In response to #34 Yitzyy:
You’ve cited some inaccurate quotes, all from over 20 years ago, and taken the quotes completely out of context. For example, the quote should read: “When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy”. If you want to know PETA’s positions on these issues and our answers to these questions, please go to our FAQ’s: http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp
#36 you have to realize, the letter writer and probably all members of this organization dont believe in torah misinai, if at all (which is the same), so when you and others come with what the torah, talmud etc says, its laughable
#35 with all due respect, you are a perfect example of ‘dass torah lechid and dass ball habais lechid’ yes, as others have pointed out before and in the other article, if its for the benefit of mankind and there is no other way, of course your allowed to experiment on animals..see plenty tsuvous sforim also igros moishe. the other comparison you make excuse me, but its totaly out of whack
In response to #36 HaLeiVi
There is no debate about this. This is a fact. The animals were conscious and struggling in agony. There was not one veterinary expert who denied this. Dr. Temple Grandin called this “the most disgusting thing she had ever seen.”
You obviously haven’t watched the footage:
http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/
After you watch it, if you still think these animals who were struggling to their feet with their tracheas dangling from the wounds in their necks, were just demonstrating reflexive movements, then you are either delusional or in a serious state of denial.
Equating Humans to Animals is SICK.
Mr Schein how many people in your organization believe in
abortions.
Mr Schein have you given money to Efrat Org. to prevent abortions being done. If not why Not.
How do you equate Humans with Animals.
If your mother or father were dying [chas v’shalom] and a new drug could entend there lives but need test on animals
would you do it.
If you were on a desert island with cows and you. Would you kill the cow to survive??
I work in Kosher Slaughtering in South America both with chicken and meat. They used to kill with a sledge hammer
and it did not always work and than it went to a retractable bolt which cause Mad cow’s Diease since it went one to another. As far a stunning I work with chickens, kosher held the chicken and kill it with a swift flawless knife that was contiuing being check while
the treife chickens were hung by their legs on a conveyor and their heads would go up an incline and drop into electrify water and hoping to kill them. I saw them flopping around until the slaughter came with a blunt knive cut their throat. Now don’t tell me anything against
kosher slaughtering since you have been brain washed
Again I ask you do you believe in abortion. Please answer
#35: Please site which Teshuva sefarim you are refering to. I don’t see why this not genuine Daas Torah. Will you please do me a favor and EXPLAIN as to WHY should Tzaar Baalei Chaim be permitted to be transgressed for the sake of improving mankind?? This ideology is DEFINITELY NOT DAAS TORAH, sounds more like Daas Baal Habayis or actually worse: DAAS MODERN ORTHODOX! And what is the actual difference between the Issur of CHATTUTAI SHICHVI and the Issur of TZAAR BAALEI CHAIM??!
In response to #24 philip schein:
Philip, why are you avoiding the question?
I did not ask if there is a possibility of ambiguity in this situation. I asked “Have you ever learned, studied and really tried to understand the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim? Or do you feel that whatever you and PETA believe is cruelty to animals constitutes tza’ar ba’alei chayim?”
Your response reeks of typical PETA sensationalism. Trying to avoid the question and lecturing about animals struggling and suffering.
I think my question is very straight forward and a yes or no answer will suffice. I did not request your opinion on whether or not one can be ambiguous when rendering a p’sak on the situation you presented.
Again, the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim are vast and complicated and -as pointed out by many posters- there are times where tza’ar ba’alei chayim is permitted. So I ask you: Are you at all familiar with the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim? Do you understand where the halachos are applicable and where they are not? Or do you decide on your own when, where and how to observe this commandment?
Sorry I meant #38!
#35: I don’t know the details about to discuss it fully, but I am given to understand that there were at least one or 2 other places to put the ER. Besides, that was an issue of human beings, not animals.
If we are mevatel EVERY mitzvah in the torah [besides the big 3] to save a human life (even only for five minutes) do we really need to discuss killing a couple of rats f it will cure cancer?!?
Mr Schein: Once again, you are selective in what you respond to. You are ignoring the other quotes,
1) comparing killing people to eating chicken. You may think its wrong to eat chicken, but the nazis were commiting genocide!!
2)That an AIDS cure gotten by animal testing shouldn’t be used, somehow its better for hundreds of people to die for lack of a cure?
And if you will equate people and animals completely (which is what it sounds like on the PETA website) then either allow cannibalism (so we can be like animals) or force lions to start eating straw…
Or agree that people are not animals, and animals are not people, in which case we can sacrifice animals to serve human needs.
In response to #42 dover shkarim:
I respect your question and YES I have studied the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim and I have also consulted with, and in some cases learned with, many authorities who are much more versed than I am on the halachos of tza’ar ba’alei chayim and shechita.
Mr Schein:
If you only answer the few questions/comments that you have an answer to, and ignore any other valid point, you give me no reason to assume that you are sincere, and actually looking for truth.
I will publicly and openly promise you right now, that if you can convince me that PETA is correct al pi Torah, I will do my part in only eating the approved shechita, or none at all. But you gotta answer the questions, in the interestof fairness and honesty.
In response to your comment #45, I would suggest reading a teshuva from R Moshe, vo 7 p 256 about tzaar baalei chayim… It may prove interesting. (Only if you are interested in what Torah and Judaism have to say on the subject)
#44 Yitzyy: You state “Besides, that was an issue of human beings, not animals” I don’t understand at all what you’re saying, what on earth is the difference between bones of human beings or live animals? they are both prohibitions of the Torah that are not allowed to be trangressed under any circumstances.
You continue “If we are mevatel EVERY mitzvah in the torah [besides the big 3] to save a human life (even only for five minutes) do we really need to discuss killing a couple of rats f it will cure cancer?!?” You ought to be more familier with the way halachos of the Torah work; of course if we had an imminent life danger on hand, then are allowed to transgress laws of the Torah to save that particular life; however, experimenting on rats in order to discover/invent new cures to heal Heaven inflicted diseases hardly fits under that category. It is actually identical halachacly to building new ER for future hospital patients.
47:
First of all, you’re completely ignoring the fact that one is people, and one is animals. Also the fact that posking allow animal testing.
Specifically Responsa Ziz Eliezer 14:68. [Hebrew], and the Igros Moshe above seems to allow what needs to be done even if its just for comfort (I could be wrong about the R Moshe, but that’s what it seems to say)
#45 please name them…we dont think your an honest broker here.since you dont seem to be from believer in torah misini the clergy you consulted are probaly not believers in torah misini either so please name a few’ #41 see ‘munchas yitzchok’ chelek 2 in regardto stunning animals..
#39 dr gandin is probably in cohoots with you lefties
#51: From your constant qoutes attacking PETA by labeling them Leftists, it would seem that your ideology is more influenced by talk show radio host Rush Limbaugh, then L’havdil elef havdolos being influenced by genuine DAAS TORAH.
Actually the truth as per our TORAH HAKEDOSHA is that its probably prohibited al pi halacha for the kosher consumer to buy meat from companies who trangress the issur of tzaar baalei chaim, on the grounds of “Mesaya’a L’dvar Aveira”, since by supporting these companies one is helping them continue to prepertrate this aveira!
never heard of this rah-bbi limbagh…must be your kind of rah-bbi. no there is no such issur of buyng meat from what you and this oigeshmte yid, writer of this letter consider tzr nbalai chaim..the are rules where it applies and where not EVEN THOUGH TZAR BAL CHIA IS PRACTICEd AT THT Prticlar incident…an organization that equates tzar balei chaim to slaughter of human beinga is defianately not guided by dass torah which they dont believe in to begin with
# 52 someone who is aqainted with talk show radio is definalely not knowledgable in dass torah ‘vhureich beyiras hashem’ which cannot co-exsist with talk show listeners
#52..at least your confiming my suspicion that most commentators on these postings are influenced by the tamene goishe gass aka radio, tele, shmtz newspapers. no, i’m influenced by the heilige torah. You say i’m a ‘rightist’ which in turn you admit your a leftist..yes in the torah and all kabaleh seforin rightist represents good and holy ‘kat hyeminis’, and leftists represents all that is evil and tomay ‘kat hasmolis’. andyes in the goishe velt the rightists are the one who fight for torah values while tha leftists are the one who fight to intorduce sdom evil laws EG. toaivh, blame the victim free the prisioner, animal rachmonis on human expense(peta). your kanoeis on this issue is not because es brent tzar al chai of the torah no, because your a lefty and use the torah when its convinient for you just like this oicher yisroel who hides behind the torah when it suits him
#55: If you feel no pity for an animal’s feelings, than you’re no different than an animal and PETA is actually correct. HASHEM YISBORACH sets aside a third of his day feeding all the creatures He has created as stated in the Gemara, and you have the audacity to show such indifference to HASHEM’S creations, SHAME ON YOU. And as you clearly show in your post your alignment of RIGHTIST IDEOLOGY with L’havdil elef havdolos the TORAH HAKEDOSHA! SHAME ON YOU AGAIN!
#56 you are the last person on earth i will shame from. you still did not refute anything i pointed out . so when you finnish fuming please respond al pi halacha. by the way did you look up what i refered to in tsuvas munchas yitzcho chelek beis?
#57 …or maybe holy rabbonim like the munchas yitzchok, bais haleivi, chasam soifer are not the kind of rabbonim you alighn with
#56 yes, and the gemmorah says your not supposed to eat before you feed your animals ‘venusati eisev besodcha lifhemptecha’…and after ‘veachalta vesavata’ and loads of other halachas but your side stepping the issue at hand like your friend,this oicher yisrael from peta. by the way do you and your friend oicher yisrael put mice, rat poison, cockroach spray in you homes? do you wear lather , crocodile etc shoes etc etc?
contin’d from #59…so what does the gemmorah avode zarah 5b (?)riboni shel oilom feeding ‘mikarnei reaimim ad…’ got to do with our discussion?
so #55 lets review. while an animal is alive and roaming freely or my pet i have to treat it with rachmonos, feed it properly, not kick it around. when i see one in agony i will do what i can, call the aspca etc , i will not go hunting (i thing pleasure hunting is assur, dont know?)never did fishing (with hook is real tzar ball chaim..my feelings) what about net..doesnt the fish have agony till it suffocates above water. but lhalacha i dont have problem as we are reqired to eat fish so here is example where human needs takes prsedence over tzar ball(you label this no rachmonis on animals#56)experimenting on animals for benefit of mankind is mutter..see that tsuvoh plus other. remember you said the is no such tsuvos around.’ kol habrious lo nivrah eleh leshamshainu’ is dby the piokim to include this too. ibid. just reviewing a little as your jumping around with ” me no rachmunis on animals) so according to, my view i assume when you see fishing with rods you probably go over to subject and berate them about crulety to living things. does this letter writer do it?
#57-#60: I actually didn’t have a chance to look up Minchas Yitzchok, however, the point of my original post regarding animal testing, was to counter the previous poster’s venemous attack labeling any opposition to animal testing as being extremely radical. As I pointed out, its not that simple at all, and it requires the likes of Minchas Yitzchok to write Responsa to permit it [assuming that he really permits it]. And I’m sure Minchas Yitzchok doesn’t give blanket hetair to inflict carelessly pain on the rats, there are definitely guidelines, and care must be taken not to hurt them excessively or unnecesssarly.
The point of my anger directed at you, is that you actually brazenly state that its not tzaar baalei chaim to disengage an animal’s esophagus while its still conscience (even if we’re doubtfull to the extent of its conscienceness). How on earth can it be mutter to cause such severe pain to an animal, when, as you state, the Gemara even prohibits causing an animal minor discomfort by waiting longer to be fed???! Your way of thinking is so perverted, I’m having a hard time being dan you l’kaf zchus. And definitely any company who trangresses this aveira with such severity, we are not allowed to support them, and thereby help them continue doing these severe aveiros! On the halachic grounds of “Mesaya’a L’dvar Aveira”.
you dont have to be dan melkaf zechus. it is totaly irrelevent to me what you think of me even if you wouldve known me, kolsheken i dont know you and you dont know me but my opiinion of where you come from still stands
#62 listen here young man ..al pi torah once you cut ‘shneim or rov shneim’ it concidered dead as a doornail no matter how much it tracehs and a yid, if not for the salting first, it mutter to eat min hatorah. you can add all your fancy words ‘brazenly’ shmazenly. we are guided with rachmanis according what the torah says is rachmonis not what you and your peta friends consider rachmanis. do you know that the simonei behime thorah have different system of how their food and wind pipe are constucted which renders it dead unlike beheime temayah (no human being couldve known that 3-4000 years age only the one who created them huh mr peta? by the way the reason one should not it while it trashinf(reflex not alive) has nothing to do with the animal….
#64: Maybe someone should try doing shnaim/rov shnayim on you ch”v; and we’ll hear from you if you claim your alive or dead!
I clearly brought down the Gemara [posted by the original letter from Mr. Schein] stating prohibitions “AD SHTEITZEI NAFSHA” -After shechita done by a Yid on a BEHAMA TEHORA. OBVIOUSLY its not quiet DEAD right away as you claim out of absolute ingnorance. Where on earth do you draw the conclusion that if issur “Ever Min Hachai” is abssolved “M’gezaras Hakasuv”, that that means “tzaar baalei chaim” is abssolved too??!! Especially since the Gemara clearly states “tzaar baalei chaim” related prohibition exclusively during that period of time??!! “YEKATA RAGLEI D’RESHI’I”-I hope you don’t want to be included in the Gemara’s CURSE!!