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Beilin: Let Chareidim Out of the Army – Separation of Religion & State

idf checkpoint.jpgAddressing the Facing Tomorrow Conference in Jerusalem on Thursday, Meretz MK Dr. Yossi Beilin, a former Meretz leader, stated the time has come to grant exemptions from military service to those who do not wish to serve in the IDF, declaring themselves conscientious objectors of religious objectors.

Interestingly, Beilin has adopted the policy of the radical left-wing party’s matriarch, Shulamit Aloni, who years ago stated the army will not be the functioning body it is today if soldiers are compelled to serve against their will, stating chareidim forced into service will not be motivated and therefore, of little use to the IDF.

Beilin added that in a short time, the chareidi population will amount to approximately 20% of the national population and the time has come to learn to live side-by-side and respect one another. He added that he views the chareidi community as genuinely interested in unity and discussion – adding chareidim too must learn to accept different streams of Judaism.

Beilin calls for a total separation of religion and state, a move that would remove control over marriage from the Chief Rabbinate and place it into the hands of the secular court and government.

(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)

22 Responses

  1. I think he is correct that unmotivated soldiers don’t do anything for the IDF, and that more shalom would be wonderful.

    I’m not so sure what that “accepting different streams of Judaism” means”. While people are entitled to do as they wish and everyone should respect others no matter their level of observance, there is only one real “stream of Judaism”, the one(s) that (try/tries to) observe(s) the Torah. Any other Jew is in the “not yet observant” department.

    There can, however, be many streams of Israelis, and, as an Israeli, one should respect his fellow Israeli, no matter what stream he is.

    But a Jew must know that Hashem wants His People to be the Am livadad yishkon uvagoyim lo yischashav (Zionists don’t really do well with that one, but regardless…) and ushmartem Mitzvosai VaAsisem Osam. That is Hashem’s will and no conservative/reform, etc. “innovation” can legitimately override that will of G-d.

  2. It’s a pity that more chareidim don’t do their duty, just like chilonim who don’t learn Torah don’t.

    I hope one day the army will be 100% frum, but that will never happen with so many chareidim avoiding serving.

    And the thing is that many do want to serve. They know it’s the right thing.

    I see it every time I walk around with my gun, and often I watch them watching all of the frum soldiers on the busses- frum soldiers with tzitzit out, with beards, carrying a weapon, and learning Mishna or Parsha or something else, etc…

    My guess is that within a generation they will serve, will help my kids make the army what it should be on every level, and will do it as enthusiastically- just like those in the Nachal Hareidi do now. It’s a societal thing holding them back now, and the tide will turn so that it’s a societal thing to serve AND learn.

  3. Meretz MK Dr. Yossi Beilin, a former Meretz leader, stated the time has come to grant exemptions from military service to those who do not wish to serve in the IDF,****************
    BALONEY, he could not care less if the Charedim serve or not, he wants his sons and grandkids who object to the Israel occupation of the Land of Israel to be free not to serve. The last 5 yrs has shown the largest amount of chilonim soldiers and air force staff objecting to serve. The increase of religious soldiers in the army has doubled, now Nachal Charedi is twofold and a special division of frum soldiers has started the air force program. All the rest who have no love for E”Y and toras yisrael have ‘left the country’ to make big dollars in Europe and America. Most of the knesset Mks kids live outside of Israel.

  4. #3
    “While you claim that the zechus of torah learning protects the nation, I can claim that the zechus of anivus and being nosei b’ol with my fellow yidden, and the achdus will protect the nation. We don’t know the Ribbono Shel Olam’s scorecard.”

    No lesser an authority than a Mishna that we say every day states “V’Talmud Torah Keneged Koolum”.
    So we do know the priorities.

  5. Why not point out the obvious?
    The roshei yeshiva of Israel- primarily the so-called lithuanian jews-who have discouraged any frum yeshiva bochur to serve in the army. The Chassidishe rebbes have tried time and again to have their followers incorporated int the army but it has been always the refusal of litvishe roshei yeshiva who have been the obstacle.I can only guess at their motivation, but could it be…ahem…a question of power and money? I mean, imagine if the numerous kollelim and yeshivas would suddenly empty themselves and allow the thousands of families to have normal lives, where would the roshei yeshiva park their children/ And what would it do to their power and influence? Lishmo it surely is not….

  6. Yediot Acharonot recently had an article on how well the Nachal Chareidi members were doing. The are both motivated and effective.
    This basically gives the lie to those who say chareidim shouldn’t be able to serve, because they would be ineffective.

  7. to 3# mr pashuteh yid..”bemokom gedolim al tamoad” this is a huge subject that big holy tzaddikim have their shitos so little people like us are not to…c’v sholem to measure ehrlicha yidden but please were are talking gedolei oilom… also you say “..claiming the zechus hatorah..” can you logically explain how a small miniscule army could’ve won all these wars, also, the word “claiming” is a shtikele kefire..because everything is b’zchus hatorah (and thats HISTORICAL FACT (heh, cantoe esq…) you say “ and pride of my grandparents …upon the establihment of..” please the joy and pride of …does not negate the shitos of the holy tzaddikim that were against the subject discussed. also your slipping up again and state “the charedim” and what are you as opposed to chareidim..what you said about nachson jumping into the yam sif, heib nit an tzu fashtein wos eir ret un vi kimt es dio arein? now the chutzpah to state “the chareidim are of the sanme belief as iranian pres.” here your showing again your colors when we first encountered you (remember the, not the alamo) you say “we dont know riboni shel oloms score card” well these tzaddikim did know.. “soid hashem lrayoiv u’vriso l’hodiam..”.. and you think these subject is a game so youre talking score card but this s serious buss. regarding the “mamba and the symbol” see posts ovethere.. you say put it plain and simple maybe for a simpleton like you its plain and simple..please dont excuse us for being sarcastic since you started again with with you maises “charedi are are the same beleif of iran pres.” afre l’pime .. you say “kol mokem shhalacah roffefes..” first its not roffefes..we mentioned gedolai oilm have their shitos..also “pok chozai my ame d’bar” is not what you think it is have. long story on this but no sec. to print it the bottom line of that story is my ame d’bar is the gedolim… BOTTOM LINE FROM YOUR OWN BOICHSVAROS WE WILL NOT MAKE A SHITA ON THE TORAH…WHERE GRATS HAVE TREADED..and dont ask these holy gedolim to change their shites because its hard for you to reconcile…

  8. to #7 rabbi of berlin…you sound take like those rabbis (rah..bonim) of berlin, you know ,those who started the “haskala” aka the endarkenment ( they called it enlightenment, and thats histiorical truths eh mr cantor…

  9. To my wonderful fellow Jew in #3 Pashuteh Yid-

    You wrote “While you claim that the zechus of torah learning protects the nation, I can claim that the zechus of anivus and being nosei b’ol with my fellow yidden, and the achdus will protect the nation.”

    The Gedolim have always stated that the zechus of limud Hatorah protects the nation. For you to say
    “I can claim…” Who are you to say that anivus and nosei b’ol could repace the zechus of Limud Hatorah? Of course those are very important zechusim but who are you to say that that can replace Limud Hatorah? Are you a new Gadol Hador that has arrived on the scene?

    If I sound harsh I sincerely apologize but when someone comes along and makes such a statement “I claim..” it is my business to remind you that you don’t have the authority to make such a claim or statement. Don’t misunderstand what I am trying to say. Of course it is a giant mitzvah to serve in the armed forces and protect Israel. At the same time we also need the giant tremendous uncomparable zechus of Limud Hatorah that equally protects the nation.

  10. Pashute Yid – While I commend you for your ahavas Yisrael, it seems from your writing that its extent is somewhat limited to those who follow your views; this dilutes the purpose of Ahavas Yisrael, somewhat, but i respect it nonetheless.

    As to your points, I offer the following, with all due respect.

    I agree that it would be patriotic if “Chareidim” would volunteer to serve. However, even if there were no issues of fighting for a state that is, in their view, kineged HaTorah, they would be putting their neshamos in grave danger if they did join, unless there were a framework like nachal chareidi where they can continue to be Torah observant and not be exposed to and indoctrinated in the tumah of Zionism.

    As for nosei biol versus learning, you can claim whatever you wish. But Talmud Torah is kineged kulam (including chesed) and the world exists through Torah Avodah and Gimilas Chesed; It does not say that it exists through any of the other mitzvos.

    In any event, even if you were to claim that chesed of protecting Jews equals the Torah (it does not – see above, but it is in the 3 mentioned above), if the rest of the IDF decides to learn and ask Chreidim to join the army, then the question would far different that it is today. But since the rest of the IDF is good at what they do, and chareidim are good at their task (learning) why not be happy?

    I think your questions about going to a doctor and bitachon are a bit off – of course, if he has to go to the doctor, then he goes, but that has nothing to do with changing his occupation from lomed to locheim?

    And your claim that by not serving in the army he is, thus, having bitachon on someone else’s cheshbon is, again, unfair – bitachon is in Hashem, not, G-d forbid (as the Zionists sang in 1967) in the IDF. So, again, stopping his learning to serve in the IDF is an entirely different issue than Bitachon.

    Your comparison to Nachshon and Krias Yam Suf seems a bit odd, too. Hashem told Moshe that they should go on – Nachshon jumped because he knew that Hashem wanted them to proceed onward, so he did, but not, lihavdil, for Zionism. It is very frustrating when Zionists insist on corrupting our holy Torah to further their agenda.

    What makes you think they are not makir tov to those who serve? Who are you to make such a blanket statement?

    Zionism is, for anyone whose head is out of the sand, clearly a stinking rotting corpse. What first or second world country EVER allowed its citizens to be hammered by rockets? What country is dying to dismember itself and begs savage terrorists to take its land and not murder its civilians? What country has never had defined borders? What country’s raison d’etre, and past and current practice is to strip its citizens of their religion so they can be “just like the other nations”, when they know full well that will never happen?

    So since Jews living in Israel have been and continue to be affected by Zionist folly, does it not makes sense to hope that the Malchus Mashiach replaces Zionism, speedily in our days?

    I don’t know what the bamba deal is, but I think emunas chachamim should be a bit stronger than a question about a bamba ban.

    People then had a far different perspective than we do and did not see the massive fiascos of Zionism that were yet to take place, or were still unknown. Besides, the reason they followed those wars was fir the same reason that everyone more recently followed the scud attacks by Saddam in Gulf War I: the lives of tens of thousands of Jews were at stake, so, for that reason, Israel had to win the war.

    This is likely why they were so proud that Israel came into existence, despite the strong objections of the gedolim who were, of course, 1000% on when they foresaw the great horrors that Zionism would foist on the Jewish people – they hoped that now everything would work itself out, and, despite the gedolim’s clearly-correct-in-hindsight admonishments, that Jews would now be safe forever by having their own land.

    All realistic Jews today, however, are aware that, silver linings in the cloud not withstanding, Zionism has been, overall, a tremendous disaster for Jews as a whole and many in particular.

    Therefore, as you rightly said, “it is not normal and goes against human nature to root against your own brethren”, which is one should NOT root for Zionism. But by your logic, one should root for Jews for J and not abhor their symbol, either, since they are Jews. This is a classic Zionist trick: “We are Jews so you must like us”.

    re: “The minhag of rov yidden is to feel pride in their own country. True, there are a million ways that things could be improved….”

    First of all, what makes it “their” country? Who runs it? Who sets its policies? No one I know.

    I don’t know what survey you took, but the only pride people have in Israel is Jews living in Eretz HaKodesh being productive good Jews (whatever their occupation), and with so many lost souls returning (after being intentionally and cruelly dejudaized by Zionists) back to Avinu shebashamayim.

    re: “..when you spit in the face of their symbols, you have lost all credibility with them, and will have zero hashpaa. The only way to have hashpaa is through overflowing ahavas yisroel”.

    Your last sentence is the only correct part of that statement. True, one should not spit in anyone’s face, no matter their mistaken beliefs. But one can love his fellow Jew and still believe in Hashem and his mitzvos UNADULTERATED, and be able to show his fellow Jew, with ahava, how they can improve.

    But, again, would you join Jews for J to be mashpia on them? Why not? After all, you could have Hashpaa? So obviously there is a time and place for everything, but staying true to the Torah is a constant and never goes out of style no matter how much Ahavas Yisrael or whatever else the motivation is.

    re: your comments in #15

    The father’s act in the holocaust story you mentioned is, at best, lifnim mishuras hadin, and that, along with any other holocaust story, has, again, no relevance to serving in the IDF.

    re: “there is certainly valid reason to believe that this is what the RBSH ultimately wants from every yid, and that the Talmud Torah is a means to get to this end of the ultimate mesirus nefesh for the RBSH that exists.”

    Who said that? Is that a mesorah you have from someone? Hashem said VaChai BaHem. Who are you to say that only applies until you enter the IDF?

    The rule in Israel is that everyone serves unless they have an exemption. Why are you trying to get people to ignore the rules and serve anyways when they could be learning and perhaps averting the war altogether through that learning?

    Out of curiosity, was Moshe Rabbeinu a sonei for killing the Mitzri? Was Pinchas a sonei for killing Zimri, a nasi biYisrael? You are bringing distorted raayos in an attempt to prove your worldview that everyone should serve in the army – can’t you leave the Torah out of it?

    And for argument’s sake, let’s say (CH”V) they made a mistake with the bamba ban? Why does it bother you so much? Because it implies they are aware of Zionism’s many grave sins against our people and you can’t deal with that because you believe in Zionism? So who has the negiah, you or the rabbanim?

  11. To my wonderful fellow yid Pashuteh Yid:

    In all honesty I was shocked and stunned at your reply to me in #15. You seem to be a very nice and loving person but your hashkafos are not good and you have the makings of an apikores. It is the Mishnah that states VITALMUD TORAH KINEGED KOOLAM in conjunction with the pasuk Im lo bresey yomum valayla chukay shomayim vaaretz lo samtee that is the source of the Gedolei Yisroel when they say how Limud Hatorah protects the nation. Once you start playing around with a Mishnah and start to give dissertations as to what you think is the intent as you have attempted to do is an indication that you need to be set straight.

    I am not speaking about playing around with a Friday night vertel for the table. I am speaking about basic fudamental axims of Yiddishkeit. When the Mishnah says Vitalmud Torah Kineged Koolam it means exactly that. Your attempted twisting is apikoorses.

    My intent is not to speak down to you but rather to say the emes. Please do not be personality defficient by trying to write back and defend yourself. Just be mekabel what I am telling you because I speak the truth.

    I do agree that the Bamba issue is ridiculous but you have to move on.

  12. To my wonderful fellow yid Pashuteh Yid:

    At 2:02 P.M. this Sunday May 18th I saw your posting in #17 which was an add on to your #15.

    What you say in #17 is a continuation of your error in #15. Your first point in #17 has no value whatsoever. If anything it shows that the greatest mitvah of all which is Limud Hatorah as stated by the Mishnah has to be done properly.

    Your second and third points highlights your lack of Torah hashkafo and the very root of your problem. Yes, there are certain areas where you and me have no say. When it comes to ikrim of Yiddishkeit and especially an issue which is delianated with an explicit Pasuk and Mishnah and which Chazal have elaborated upon, we ordinary people have no say. It’s like a layman who knows nothing about medicine and decides to state his ignorant thoughts on medicine. Any reasonable person understands that he is out to lunch. So it is with our holy eternal timeless Torah. One cannot state his own dayos on something which he is not an authority on. I repeat, your attempt to tamper with the Pasuk and Mishna and which Chazal have expounded upon renders you to be an apikores. Of course not intentionally, but unintentional apikurses is nonetheless apikurses.

    The root of your problem is that you do not have a Rav to guide you. And that is exactly what happens when you don’t have one. One begins to innocently say things that hold no water and there is no end to the shtusim and apikurses that one will come out with. As Chazal say Assey licha Rav. My suggestion to you is to find a good Rav who will show you the way. If you are going to talk it into yourself that there is no Rav to whom you could be machnia to that is a an indication that you have both spiritual and personality defficiences.

    I happen to be a Rabbi and Family Therapist.
    Once again, I am sure that you are full of good qualities, my intention is not to knock you chas vesholam but only to say the emes. As you yourself espouse the importance of anivus, you must begin to have that anivus and be machnia to the Gedolei Yisroel. I’m not telling you to be machnia to the street corner Rebbe Yo Yo. I’m speaking of the importance of hachnaah to the Gedolei Yisroel.

    If you ever wish to speak with me I could find a way to contact you.

  13. My dear Pashuteh Yid,

    I could bring you a dozen more proofs to what I said about the unparalled zechus of Limud Hatorah but they are not necesarry when you have a Pasuk, Mishnah and elaboration of Chazal. Secondly, you mention many more points in #20 which don’t have any intelligent connection. You are basically rambling on and on in obvious need to support your internet image.

    One example of your rambling: You write, “Second, other sources regarding whether or not to serve are from a parallel to Shevet Levi. I do not want to go into pratim, but have mentioned that some gedolim obligate one to serve (Rav Zevin), and others say that even Shevet Levi can volunteer (Tzitz Eliezer). I hardly believe that these are apikursim.”

    If you read what I have written in #14 and I quote myself, “Of course it is a giant mitzvah to serve in the armed forces and protect Israel. At the same time we also need the giant tremendous uncomparable zechus of Limud Hatorah that equally protects the nation.” If You read those words which I wrote then how do you foolishy write the above paragraph. It’s as if you did not comprehend what I wrote. This is one example of your rambling on and on without intelligence.

    I conclude that your hashkofos are lacking and there is a substantial element of apikurses to you. As well, I see that you are a very stubborn person and you probably will never follow Chazal to find a Rav for yourself because your personality defficiencies will prevent you from being machnia to anyone no matter how great they are. I’m also sure that until you address your spiritual lackings and go for counselling for your personality defficiences you will ramble on and on no matter how much emes you hear. I see this syndrome with many of my clients.

    Once again, I sincerely apologize for sounding so tough with you but you need it. It will take alot of maturity, intellectual honesty, fortitude and some yiras shiomayim on your part to start moving forward.

    Be well, I would be more than happy to help you out without any charge.

  14. I believe you are incorrect in your first points in #20, but I wish to not take the time to rebut them, now.

    re: “Finally, Hakatan, when you complain of allowing its citizens to be hit with rockets, you are being soser yourself minei ubei. You know that the anti-zionist hashkafa is based on not having any state at all until moshiach, meaning that the Arabs should be in control and have freedom to persecute us as much as they please, and if we fight back it violates shelo yimredu baumos according to you. So stopping the rockets is more of a violation of the shalosh shevuos agadeta than not stopping the rockets. You can’t have it both ways.”

    Absolutely false. Jewish lives are at stake. Everyone realizes that. Therefore, the IDF must do everything in its power to save Jewish lives since they have the opportunity to protect and save Jewish life. This is why even may non-political shuls pray for the IDF soldiers: they’re Jews and the people they are defending are Jews. We all wish them that they come home safely and that all Jews should be safe and sound.

    Incidentally, I never stated the basis of my assertion is specifically the shalosh shevuos or any other source, though the hisgarus baumos never seemed to be a wise move, Zionist arrogance and recklessness not withstanding.

    But this is completely irrelevant to the State of Israel’s (and, possibly, for other reasons the IDF’s) halachic illegitimacy. The gedolei HaDor said clearly that Zionism was a terrible mistake and that the State should not be founded. History has, of course, shown the prescience of their words. Once the Zionists did the deed, however, the present-day practical approach to Zionism and its State is that of pragmatism, not dogmatism sice the pragmatism here IS dogmatism of “Vinishmartem, Kol Hamekayem, et al). The academic approach to its illegitimacy has not changed, but the facts on the ground require a different response than “Non-Jews must be in charge”.

    “If we approach them with anger and accusations, they will respond in kind. But if we approach them with ahavah, they will also respond in kind, I guarantee it.”

    I agree with you, here, and I believe the best way to get through to someone is to be exceedingly kind to them. But the facts and truth remain what they are, and are not negated by a lack, perceived or otherwise, of Ahavas Yisrael.

  15. My dear Pashuteh Yid,

    You may be have heard Shiurim from many big people as you claim but you do not have a Rebby to guide you as is quite obvious. Slice or spin it any way, if you cannot accept the Pasuk and Mishna and elaboration of Chazal that Vitalmud Torah Kineged Koolam means exactly just that then you are in dire need of hadracha. In addition, once you start to attempt to misconstrue this fundamental axiom of Yiddishkeit as you did, this renders you an apikores. No genuine Rebby with mesorah would disagree with the above.

    As far as speaking harshly I happen to feel as you do with the exception of very stubborn people like yourself. Even so I still feel bad and continuously ask for mechila now rather than at the end of my life. But for me to keep quiet when I hear this apikurses would be an avairah on my part for not correcting you.

    Having said this thus fulfilling my obligation as a fellow yid, I add once again that I am sure that you have many good qualities and may Hashem be with you.

    (If you want to be in contact with me I have ways to contact you without anyone’s help. I have done some undercover operations with a certain law enforcement agency to help yidden.)

  16. Yossi Beilin is a portrait of a hypocrite. For years he supported (and encouraged) Leftists to (Shalom achshav, yesh gvul, the right to refuse, etc) refuse to serve in the “occupied” territories because of conscienctious objections. But when frum soldiers balked at throwing their own families out of Gush Katif, no such conscientious objector status was offered. Objectors were sentenced to jail. Beilin is hypocrite and a typical Israeli establishment Bolshevik. Do as I say but not as I do.

    Next Case, I’m glad #11 and other have responded to pashuteh Yid I will just say in short, Hashem is very big and very capable. We may not see it, we not understand it but it is not ours to calculate how what and why. If the Gedolei Hador in all generations said Zionism and the establishment of the state is a bad thing, we rely on their knowledge, especially when this sentiment is expressed unanimously. Elisha Hanavi and Mordechai Hatzaddik did not have one F16 or Merkava Tank. Likewise Chezkiyahu Hamelech, and the Makabees. But when we “rely” on tzahal as our primary defense, it weakens our true primary defense. Kol hakavod l’tzahal? Hardly. Strengthening the mitzvas of tefillin, Milah, shmittah, etc, which Torah tells us are connected with the security of the land is where are salvation comes from, not from being just like all the nations that are around us, even though our ego may want to feel that way.

    Malachim II 6:16

  17. re: “However, you have never been masbir the dogmatic statement that, “History has, of course, shown the prescience of their words.” In what way? Loss of life? Have stated here that number of soldiers and terror victims is at 21,457 which is one of lowest for any 60 year era. (Have heard that there are more victims of traffic accidents.)Loss of ruchniyus? The nonfrum zionists who started the state were nonfrum even before the state was founded. Very few cases of people becoming less frum because of founding of state. Loss of parnasah? B”H state is doing great financially.”

    All of the above.

    Loss of life:
    That’s 21,547 needlessly-dead Jews. Lowest in 60 years? Compared to when?

    To point out the obvious, had the Zionists listened to our gedolim and not founded Israel and, therefore, its army, none of those Jews would have died. Arafat invented the suicide bomber in 1956 with his PLO. No soldier would have died in Israel since the IDF would not have been in existence if Israel had not come into being.

    Loss of Ruchniyus:
    It is indisputable history that the Zionists intentionally dejudaized the incoming sefardi Jews, even against their express reassurances to the children’s parents that they would keep them religious.

    Ask each of your local sefardi neighbors if his father was religious. Ask about his grandfather’s lifestyle in the Arab country he lived in before they came to Israel. Then ask about his father’s upbringing in Israel. Then ask about his upbringing. You can also ask any reputable historian, or google it for further demoralizing (to your belief in Zionist purity) details.

    Understand that well – dejudaized Jews intentionally dejudaized other Jews despite promising those Jews’ parents that they would not do so.

    And besides the history (not to minimize it in the slightest, though), present day Israel culture is a moral sewer and any Jew who values the Torah knows to stay far away from it.

    Financial loss:
    And what of all the people coming from Israel to collect overseas? Are they rich? Why is the average Israeli salary 25% of the salary of the same job in North America, yet Real Estate is sold in American Dollars for American prices. How come statistics are something like 50% of Israeli children live below the poverty line? That’s a country doing well?

    re: “I personally think it was the best thing that ever happened to the klal in the last 2000 years.”

    While you’re entitled to your opinion, a simple study of history and current events would prove your assertion to be quite questionable, in addition to the uncomfortable (to Zionism) reality that the gedolei HaTorah all warned against Zionism and Israel, and, logically speaking, since Jews have survived without a State for thousands of years, it is ridiculous to assert that only with a State will Jews continue to survive.

    And, as I said, only with the State’s arrival did Arafat get started and every unexempted Jew at 18 years of age had to go serve in an army.

    re: “But if you disagree, then at least say in what way things are worse now than without state and where exactly would we be living and who would be ruling us? You know of course that the Saudis don’t even allow Christians the right to worship openly. Al achas kamah vkamah the Jews. If we were under the Arabs, I highly doubt you would see the number of yeshivos and shuls in EY that we have now.”

    First, we are not neviim and, for all we know, Mashiach could have come and redeemed us all by now had things been different. Whatever your views, this is an undeniable POSSIBLITY.

    Putting that aside, say Zionism had never happened. Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld Zatza”l and, lihavdil, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat’s mentor, had a cordial relationship. The latter once said to the Rav that if you Jews want to live here it is OK, but if you try to rule over us, it will be bad news.

    Logically, what likely would have happened is that the Arabs would have their areas, the Jews would buy/develop their areas (just as they did) and they would build houses, yeshivos, etc. (just as they did).

    Say the British would have still controled the entire territory. Likely, they would have eventually ceded local control, if not “national” control to whomever lived in the respective areas, and the British, or the UN, or whatever third party, would have overall security responsibility.

    Incidentally, if the Arabs gave them trouble, the British would probably have done to the Arabs in Palestine what they did to those in Iraq – crush them into obedience.

    Or, maybe the UN would control the entire place and you’d have Jewish “shomrim” or official Jewish police to take charge of Jewish areas’ safety.

    This is all speculation. But the hell that Zionism created would certainly not be known. This enormous unnatural enmity that some Arabs have to Israel and, unfortunately, by extension, to Jews, has been created by Zionism. Again, look at history. See how the Yemenite Jews had their mesorah intact from Bayis Sheni! See how the Jews in other Arab countries fared. It may not have been paradise, but is was quite “reasonable”.

    There were no suicide bombers and Pesach Seders and restaurants blown apart into smithereens. There were never massive checkpoints and “ghetto-izing” Jews into their areas and having to reinforce their schools and buses against incoming rockets with the government officials saying with a straight face and no embarrassment that this is normal and there is nothing they can do about it.

    This is insanity!!

    Since people don’t know history, they take a look at what’s out there and say, OK, that;s the best they can do. But it’s not, It’s far, far, from it.

    Yet innocent Israelis consider such a life normal, because they don’t know any better.

    re: “Since I am tired of the abuse, I will read any further comments either of you make, but doubt I will respond. We are simply not connecting, so it is futile. Nothing anybody says will reduce my ahavas yisroel for all yidden and belief of the primacy of that principle in yiddishkeit. ”

    I feel bad for you that you feel that way, but I understand that by now you don’t wish to respond further. I have replied to you, though, so that you should not feel that the comments were meant as an attack, but rather to respond with facts that I am aware of that I believe you were not aware of.

  18. to #30 we called few “osters apikoras and when did so stated reasons and reference…one thingyou seem tobe of the ones who think torah is of an individual opinions so youi come with what you feel, what you are proud , what your grandfather, grand mother felt etc…see #11, you keep on bringing rayos that have to do with the subject on hand like price of eggs in china have to do with subject…did you learn thru the “v’yoel moshe ” yet befor you state your personel opinions, what h’g hakodes reb elcononwasserman, the brisker rav, chazon ish etc etc msnny many tzaddikim of their calibur who held these dass torah and you little nobody (compared to them) comes and staes his opinon of what hee FEELS is right…

  19. to #33 ones has to have yediah in kol hatorah kilo beore one can pasken such has to know when to apply ahavas yisroel and when not etc etc etc so you are taking one mitzvah and applying..same with others you mentioned. now EG: oihave sholem, v’rodof sholem …means sometimes you have to “roidof” the sholem (thats not my own) ahavas yisroel is not blank check, see “arvai psochim” dont have daf on hand,….so if you dont mind most of your postings are opinions and feelings which we are not guided if you feel that by us by ponting out to you this your are insulted what should we do? chanife is not the way, keddushin 67a (?).when someone states his opinions which is contrary to halacha according these particular gegdoilay oilem we numerated. also, what has toras chesed to do with negating halache that gedoilai oilom were against.. also, if one points out to another that he is wrong according to other shitos you get insulted? me didnt get insulted when the other guys said i’m 3rd,4th 6th grade level, noam chomsky, although would’ve prefered norman finkelstein (sounds better), so you did not reply in regard to what was mentioned in posts #11, # 32 also all these postings are being debated by opinions, opinions are not halacha… and where did you get this smicha to state “there is only one path to geula” and your that one who knows that path?…and again you say “plain and simple” just because you say “plain and simple” it does not get “plain and simple” like the guy using the words “historical truths” he thinks it becomes automatic “historical truths” this is a complicated subject… also you dont have to give me choices of how to bring the geula as we see you and us have complete different haskofos, thank you. just like you have these right to post “your opinion”on what is dass torah, so do we have right to refute if we thing your not right ibid..but we bring reyous, as opposed to you that brings opinions and “feelings, and thats what we had thruout your postings all over…as to what we mentioned first 3-4 of the holy gedolim that we had , who is not with us anymore, was once debating with other gedolim, in the sukkah, on a certain toisfos in shass and they claimed there is no such toisfos there, so this godal hador went up up , then and there,to his apt to check, so they asked whats the hurry so he said if i forget even one toisfos in shas cant pasken any more(dont know exact way ..but) thats what we’re trying to say to pasken that radish is boirey pri hadame you can go ahead,but to state your opinions on such matters with your feelings, b’mokopm gedolim al tamoad, you have to be boke b’chol hatorah to anylize all memres in shas and poskim before coming to halachig conclusion, not take a mitzvah ahvas yisroel there, loshon hora here etc ..

  20. to #35 ok, so maybe you become a gadol hador..and make your shita, get thousands of talmidim, become a world renowed posek, can rectify what you think is the right dass torah regarding this subject..

  21. to # 35 …also, go to a godol hador and present him with your view, like yisro did to his son-in- law, moshe rabbainu..but by stating your dass torah on this site things will not change

  22. #25
    I completely agree with #22 all the way through. You keep insinuating that he is against frum people serving in the army. He never said that, in fact he said quite the contrary. You said he keeps repeating the same sources which does not contradict your position which is also not true. His sources do contradict what you wish to say. He brought the most important and compelling Chazals on the subject not requiring any later sources. Perhaps you are the one who owes him an apology.

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