Report: 30 Percent of Avreichim Duped The Military

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According to a Yisrael HaYom report, 30% of avreichim granted a deferment from IDF service after declaring they are learning did not comply with conditions of the agreement.

According to information presented to the Knesset Foreign Affairs & Defense Committee by Ministry of Education Torani Department official Amos Tzeida, the annual budget for avreichim stands at NIS 135 million, but a random inspection has revealed 30% of the avreichim lied, and are not spending all their time learning as is required under the agreement.

He added there is no system in place to monitor 115,000 talmidim and avreichim who push off military service. There are recommendations to disqualify institutions in which avreichim are found to have attested to learning while in actuality, they are not present.

(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)


43 COMMENTS

  1. The leftsist duped the Avreichim when they had said they were making a state “for all Jews to live as Jews without being persecuted”.

  2. Yes. We should also deduct all time spent in the hallways, schmuezing, and all time spent drinking coffee and using the men’s room.

    If we do the math, maybe we can disqualify all of them.

    By the way, how many hours are wasted by the students of Hebrew university who receive deferments?–Just asking.

  3. So what’s the alternative. If they refuse to serve because the army and the state are against Torah, they are traitors. This is because Jewish tradition doesn’t recognize the idea of conscientious peaceful objection (unlike the Christians). If the king is evil, you have an affirmative duty to fight him (and not merely refuse to participate in his evil schemes). You are from the king’s perspective a rebel – and you are allowed to defend yourself and kill him first.

    The rabbanim have wisely followed the path of avoiding a conflict with the zionists by using “I’m too busy learning” as a way to minimize confrontation with the zionists. Even Neturi Karta doesn’t dare confront them at this time.
    It is not for me to question the gedolim who prefer shalom with the government.

    However the reason for exempting frum people from the army is to avoid having to confront the hilonim – it has nothing to do with learning. That is just a “legal fiction”. If there was a Jewish state, the Bnei Yeshiva would be running the army and the hilonim would be deferred.

  4. Didn’t YWN publish a story that the above is not true just three days ago?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=53519

    Porush and Maariv: Galei Tzahal Incites Against the Yeshiva World
    April 12, 2010

    Deputy Minister of Education R’ Meir Porush accuses Galei Tzahal (Army Radio) director Yitzchak Tunik of inciting and airing programming against the yeshivish world.

    “The military radio station using cheap propaganda” against the chareidi community alleges Porush, achieving its goal by broadcasting inaccurate and unfounded reports. The deputy minister made reference to a report filed by Kalman Lipskind, whose findings appeared in the daily Maariv.

    “Galei Tzahal correspondent Rino Tzror has an extremist political agenda, one that is influenced by “coarse arrogance”. When he permits someone with a different view express himself on the air, he will be certain to shut him up or embarrass him.

    Portions of the Maariv report…

    “Two weeks ago he discussed yeshiva students who receive stipends from the state, stating there are 11,000 of them, each receiving 1,000 NIS monthly after declaring they meet the criteria for the funding. T. Nesher of the station checked with the Education Ministry to see if such statements are followed up for accuracy, to confirm if they are indeed true, stating the facts are ‘difficult to digest’.

    “Nesher reported that in 2009, a private firm investigated 190 avreichim and found that 66 of them, over a third, lied in their declaration. Tzror stated the ‘sampling’ points to avreichim receiving support when they shouldn’t be. Tzror took the sampling of 190 and ruled this is the situation regarding all 11,000.

    “A statistical computation indicates that if over 30% are not entitled, over NIS 4 million were wasted in 2009”.

    Maariv reports the entire report is tainted since Galei Tzahal knew ahead of airing the facts that the numbers are not representative of reality. The people responsible for the report learned the ministry does indeed check from time-to-time to verify the declarations made by avreichim, explaining the ministry learned of a number of avreichim who did not tell the truth, and they were blacklisted. That is the so-called 190 people monitored by Galei Tzahal, those on the ministry’s black list. Therefore, they do not represent a random sampling of the 11,000 avreichim involved. Maariv explains that Army Radio used this black list, portraying it as a random sampling among the 11,000.

    Porush sent a letter to Tunik demanding an explanation, with a copy sent to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who is ultimately responsible for Galei Tzahal (Army Radio).

    (Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)

  5. what a shock. but seriously, this is a horrible chillul Hashem. There is no excuse at all. all of you trying to excuse those who are actually guilty as charged are brainwashed.

  6. I have noticed that a lot of American student’s that have Israeli parents and may have been born in Israel are usually qualified for a three year stay in the country. For more info post the “Q” as a comment and I’ll try to respond. I have personal experience in this.

  7. Just to clarify;

    I did not say that living up to a signed agreement was being persecuted.

    My point in comment #1 Is that when for example Rabin was in office and the Women in Green held up signs saying “don’t give away Jewish land” the anti free speech antisemitic thug police beat the Women In Green and put them in jail on trumped up charges.

    When the antisemitic Barbara Striesand movie Yentl came out they proudly showed it in Iseraeli theaters, not caring that it was a lie and loshon hara (like the part where the yeshivah bauchur tells Striesands character who was disguised as boy to learn in yeshivah, that “I do not care about a womans intelligence” as long as she looked good and would serve and obey him,) and how offensive it was to religious Jews.

    But when the Passion of the Christ came out they refused to allow to be shown in Israel because they did “not want to offend Christians”.

    These and many others, are examples of the persecution, I was talking about in comment #1.

  8. for the umpteenth time, I am not sure whether it is even worth commenting upon akuperma (and others)words, but I will anyway- so that one doens’t think he speaks the truth. Whether you are happy with all what the government of israel does or not, to write “IF there was a jewish state” (emphasis mine) is the height of folly and totally, totally denies reality. In addition, you are guilty of one of the mose heinous sins- not to be “makir tov’ to a person who has dome yo ua favor. there are tens of thousands of avreichim and yeshiva bochurim that would not have existed if there was no “zionist state” (in the words of akuperma). You probabaly would not have any standing shuls in erezt yiroel (see all the other arab countries) and you surely could not pray at the kossel. to deny this and to build utter fantasies is dangerous and clearly lacks in any jewish perspective.
    lastly, whatever became of the obligation of protecting jewish lives? is that not a “chiyuv” even now?

  9. #9- but to do anything significant (meaning stage a takeover) we would have to shed blood, and apparently the gedolim feel that learning Torah is more important than running a government — so until Meshiach sets up a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael, we’re stuck with the zionists (yemach shmo).

  10. #7 – Read #5.

    I am very disappointed that YWN did not post a link in this story to the reports of bias that this report has been accused of. You are portraying the charedim in a very negative light, even while reporting that this report is not all it’s cracked up to be.

  11. #11 How about explaining for the first time, how all those frum yidden were living Torah lives for hundreds of years before any “secular (so called Jewish) state” ever existed?

  12. #12 I wasn’t advocating any conflict. If a significant segment of the army were chareidim then, like in any organization, the organization would have to accomodate the needs of it’s members. Plus imagine the influence the chareidim would have on the chilonim.

    The reality is that not everyone is cut out to sit in kollel. Those that fake taint the reputation of those that are serious about their learning. Just as the learners are supporting the country through the strength of their learning, the fakers should also be doing their share whether it’s being in the army or emptying bedpans in the hospitals.

  13. Akupera, you seem to very in line with Daas Torah & our Gedolim.
    I don’t think that you would find any godol who would approve of you saying Yemach Shmo about other Yidden
    YW Editor, I would assume that this offends many. Perhaps sinas chinam like this should edited off of your site.
    Good Shabbos everyone.

  14. #11 ROB: Allegedly not being “makir tov” is not nearly as heinous a sin as kefira or retzicha is, but Zionism has, of course, far different priorities than Judaism.

    In any event, you are assuredly not a prophet, so you have no clue how much Torah learning there would or would not be in the land of Israel regardless of whether the State of Israel ever became a reality or not. There are yeshivos all over the world that do not require Zionism as a prerequisite for existence. So to say “these avreichim would not exist” seems rather silly. Again, there are avreichim the world over that do not have Zionism to thank for their learning.

    The rest of your conjecture about shuls and the like is also hypothetical at best because Mandatory Palestine was not Saudi Arabia and would, likely, NOT (even without Zionism) have become yet another Arab country.

    Ironically, since the Zionists can’t stop tripping over themselves to kiss up to the world (that is, of course, part of their holy mission), the Zionists, after all the disasters in Eretz Yisrael since their meddling began, will be the ones who, on their own accord, end up creating bona fide Arab states in Eretz Yisrael.

  15. well, if anyone needs proof of the sheer idiocy of some of the opponents of eretz ysorel, just check out apukerma’s comments in number 12. Woed demonstartum est”. (for the unitinated, it means, as is proven)

  16. Defending the Jews living there, today, is a different matter, but let’s not confuse the reality, of the State of Israel being tasked with defending the millions who live there, with the truth that there is absolutely no proof that Jews are better off having “achieved” the State of Israel, and there are many indications that its establishment was and is a many-pronged disaster.

  17. #18 Your own post of #11 is nothimng to brag about as pointed out both by me and others like #17

    Further, #12 says we are stuck with the seculars, so are you saying we should try to “overthrow” the seculars?

    Thatt is what is seems liek you are saying since you have said that sayingw e are stuck with them is to use your exact words “sheer idiocy”.

  18. #11/18 – Of course we owe our thanks to the state of Israel for (begrudgingly) supporting Torahand protecting the lives of all the jews, frum and not frum, who live in Israel. If we owe thanks to America, which we do, we certainly owe thanks to Israel.

    However, the state of Israel was not founded and is not run by Torah ideals and rules. Therefore, the only reason to call it a “jewish state” is because of its population. However, if we refer to America as a capitalistic, democratic state, then we should refer to Israel as a zionistic state. The reason not call Israel a “zionistic state” is because this term is often used by the arabs, and now has negative connotations.

    #17 – “Ironically, since the Zionists can’t stop tripping over themselves to kiss up to the world (that is, of course, part of their holy mission), the Zionists, after all the disasters in Eretz Yisrael since their meddling began, will be the ones who, on their own accord, end up creating bona fide Arab states in Eretz Yisrael.”
    Don’t you understand? Zionism, like communism before it, is dead. The ideals that Israel was founded on (occupying the land no matter what the cost, creating a jewish homeland where we would be welcome and protected) no longer guide the current administrations. Zionism was the result of several factors: the nationalist movements of the early 20th century, and the Holocaust. But the effects of these events have long worn off, and without its ideological foundation zionism slowly faded away.

  19. i have to say that i am really bothered by much of what is being written on this page. firstly, most of those commenting dont know the first thing about what it means to be a frum jew in the army. many of you assume that one must trample on his kippa before being admitted into an army base. this is not the case. religion is respected in the army, as i can attest to from first hand experience. there is kosher food, and there are times for davening. there may not be 8 hours a day of learning, but all of you doctors and lawyers cant claim to have that for yourselves either. second, all the rants against zionism does nothing to change the fact that at the end of the day, because religious jews did not rush to Eretz Yisroel, it is the secular jews who have created and maintained a largely secular state. those frum jews living in israel must abide by their rules. either they are a legitimate jewish government, in which case we are obligated to follow the laws, or they are not a legitimate jewish government, in which case they are still the ones in power and should be viewed as a non-Jewish government much the same as the US government. If you want to learn instead of stand against those who want to butcher your families, i support that, and so do many Chilonim. But no one can support Bitul Torah, or lying.

  20. I was born in Israel and moved to the states when I was a few months old and retuned to learn in yeshiva from 17-21 when I got engaged. After that I got a phone call to go to the Army office and register. I went as instructed to be treated horribly. The first thing that happened was I was interogated as to why I was “ignoring” the letters sent to me for 5 years!!! They showed me the address of where I lived the first few months of my life. A yeshiva deferment didn’t help me, and I had to do all the tests and think about pushing off my wedding. It was a very hard time. In the end I got a patur. I hope that the Israeli army relax it’s stance in regards to painting ppl who wear black and white as army avoiding “chareidim” and try and assess each situation. Legally, I could have received a differment years earlier, but they never mentioned anything at the airport. But to be treated like a fugitive because of their stupid mistake of sending letters to an address we lived at more than 2 decades earlier is insane.

  21. #23 It is not true that frum people stayed away from the state in the beginning.

    Read the book Perfidy, which details what was done to frum families to brainwash them into being not frun so the seculars could have many more on their side.

  22. #22 – Nothing. I don’t believe there is a any real philosophy guiding the the modern-day state of Israel, just the normal desires of the people – peace, prosperity and stability of the status-quo (read – no chareidim taking over the place).

    #23 – With the exception of comment #24, which was posted after you posted your comment, I don’t see anybody saying anything about “what it means to be a frum jew in the army” or that “one must trample on his kippa before being admitted into an army base”.
    “because religious jews did not rush to Eretz Yisroel, it is the secular jews who have created and maintained a largely secular state.”
    There is a very good reason “religious jews did not rush to Eretz Yisroel” – according to most shitos, it is ussar al pi dnah d’gemorah to establish a jewish state in Eretz Yisroel.
    “If you want to learn instead of stand against those who want to butcher your families, i support that, and so do many Chilonim. But no one can support Bitul Torah, or lying”
    Please see comment #5.

  23. As usual all the Americans with their Lexus cars and swimming pool memberships are screaming how wrong it is that Jews in Israel won’t join the Israeli army.

    Talk about hypocrisy.

    The Avreichim in Israel live here, endure hardships here, and refuse to toe the line of the gashmius that you Americans have made into a demi-God. You aren’t fit to polish their shoes.

    If you think it’s so important to fight in the Zionist army, then quit your job, sell your house, and move your wife and family over here and pick up a gun. And live in a tiny, poor apartment, with no maid, no summer camp, no restaurants, no fine clothes and jewelry for your wife, and then you can brag about what a Zionist you are.

    Otherwise the facts of your life that you have chosen declare you to be a big mouth and nothing more.

  24. akuperma –

    I am very sorry that you feel this way about Eretz Yisroel, and the government that HaKadosh Baruch Hu has chosen to govern it. While i for sure dont agree with most of the politics, nor did i vote for this government, i have come to understand that this whole journey is part of Hashem’s master plan for the world, and i have faith that He knows what He is doing. PLEASE stop being so derogatory towards the Torah Jews that do live here. The point of this story is to show the Charedim living here that we have to be on our toes, because everything we do is an example of how Torah Jews behave to people that are not as fortunate to live with the Torah as their guide.

    We, as examples to “Non-Religious” Jews, have the power to be MeKarev them to a Torah lifestyle, yet how can we expect to do that if we are too busy alienating them?

    The Avrechim who are cheating the government, are really cheating all of us, because the learning protects the Jews here equally to the army, all with the help of Hashem. Those not serving in the army and lying about being in yeshiva are minimizing that protection.

    Lastly, if Hashem didnt want Jews living in Eretz Yisroel, then how do you explain all the outright miracles that were witnessed in every single war that has been fought since 1948? To the point that the US will not look at military strategy from Israeli wars because statistically Israel should have lost every one.

    Tonight please try to keep in mind all the Yidden that fought to keep Eretz Yisroel a safe place for Jews, and do something L’ilui Nishmasam.

  25. #28:
    Supposedly, Yeshu performed nisim, too. Do you believe he is your savior, CH”V? After all, look at all the nissim he performed?

    Nisim prove nothing other than hashgacha pratis, not your fantasy of *why* that particular hashgacha pratis occurred. Those outright miracles saved tens of thousands of Jewish lives, which are obviously precious to the borei olam. Might that be why?

    As for the “journey…part of Hashem’s master plan”, nothing happens unless Hashem allows it to, of course. But everyone has free will, and if a person wants to sin, Hashem allows that person to sin. So the State of Israel’s mere existence (as with anything) has no implication on how favored (or not) it is in Hashem’s eyes.

    This is, anyway, largely academic, at this point, as the State of Israel is, of course, a reality, but the truth, of what should be and what should have been, is just as true now as it was then, even if reality necessitates a different (or no) approach.

  26. the comments of the anti-eretz yisroel crwod are so outlandish that I am not bothering to answer them, except one comment that was slipped in by mw13 (number 26) who said; ‘ according to most hsittas, it is ‘ossur al pi dina degemoro to establish a jewish state in eretz ysroel’. HUH?
    “most shittas”?? except for the satmarer rebbe, I know of no one who holds that shittah. there are plnety of poskim who hold that it is actually a mitzvah to establish a jewish state-going back to the early nineteenth century. so please, save me your silly statements.
    to hakatan (29)- did you ever stop to think why millions (yes, millions) of chareidi jews perished in the holocaust? think about it and let me know what you found…

  27. rabbiofberlin – It is true that in 2010 it’s almost been forgotten that there were any other shittos and gedolim who beleived it to be an outright ossur to establish a Jewish state and to be misgares beumos.

    But those who really REALLY care to take the time to know the absolute objective truth can easily find, by doing some research that in prewar Europe, when the zionists already started with their plans for a Jewish state, before they even knew exactly in which location it’ll be, MOST gedolim of the time ruled that it is a definite issur to wage war and take a country by force, and to establish a Jewish state with a Jewish government.

    After the Holocaust it was a tremendous nissoyon to keep to this ruling for the war wary jews. Only some very brave and honest gedolim with crystal clear vision stuck to that truth and defended the halacha no matter what our sentiments had to say.

    Most gedolim of today who aren’t strong enough to uphold this shitta – if you go back 1-2 generations of their own ancestors and predecessors held that it was an issur.

    Call it satmar or whatever – but before you jump check the facts.

  28. And by the way the satmar rebbe said at the establishment of the State of Israel the “they will not have even one day of peace. They claim they will bring menucha to the Jewish people but time will show that they will bring exactly the opposite”.

    Just a quote….

  29. chassidigal- it is not enough for you to assert your “beliefs’ – quotes and actual sources please!!!! otherwise, I cannot take you seriously!
    as far as the satmerer rebbe’s quote- where was the “menucha’ for yidden for many centuries??? russia and its pogroms, middle ages and its crusades, spain and its espulsion, germany and its catastrophic holocaust…for two thousand years we have nad nu menucha-so please spare me the sanctimoniousness….

  30. Okay rabbi, there are lots and lots of sources I’m still looking them all up to give them to you in an exact manner but for starters:

    1. There was a torah pamphlet called “hapardes” published in tishrei tof reish tazddik ches, where they summarize the proceeding of a rabbinical agudah convention that took place 2 weeks earlier to be dan on the inyan of whether it is permissible for Yidden to have their own land. Hundreds of rabbonim and poskim were present and the convention took 7 hrs. They write that for the majority of attendees it was not even a sheila that it is definitely prohibited amongst them; Rav Elchonon Wasserman (most prominent talmid of the chofetz chaim), Rav Aaron Kutler, Rav Rottenberg from Antwerp, Rav Yosef Tzvi Dushinski (Yerushalayim Rav), and ALL the hungarain and Czech rabbonim present. They all felt this way clearly even if it is a tiny land even if it’s not in Eretz Yisroel, doesn’t matter which country, even if it is run by frum yidden, with a sanhedrin and in keeping with all the halochos it is still ossur, due to kefira in emunas moshiach. (sefer ish chamudos, Nitra Rosh yeshiva, page mem dalet)

    They go on to write that there were a minority of rabbonim who said that you mustn’t totally disregard the idea of having a Jewish state that is run according to halacha,it might not be kfira they were: Biyaner Rebbe, Saddigere rebbe, Rav Tzirelsohn, Rav Levin and Rav Sorotzkin. Due to this minority the leaders of the convention who were zionistically inclined ruled that they will continue with their plans.

    2. Check out the sefer Mikatovitz ad Hay Iyur. by Tzvi Weiman a historian and an agguda member. Lots of facts there.

    3. sefer Tiyul Bpardes chelek beis – the Shamloer rav, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Ehrenreich (the current Viener Rav’s great grandfather)a big posek in his time, came out with a Kol Korah (this was way before satmar shitta even existed) he writes among others that aguda and mizrachi aren’t much different than the zionists since recently they also started to lobby for the establishment of a Jewish state which is in the klal of the onesh “and I will make your flesh hefker like deer in the field” (BTW – Hitler yemach shmo wrote in his book “Mein Kampf” that he will execute the Jewish nation like deer in the field…..)

    4. R’ yosnessen Aibeshitz in his sefer Ahavas Yonessen in parshes veschanon writes “even if all the countries in the world will give eretz yisroel to the jewish nation, you are not allowed to accept it, and you must be ready to even be killed rather than let this happen, as if this will happen it will be worse than the other two galios (chorbon beis hamikdosh).

    5. The Meharshab – Rav Sholom Dov of Lebavitch quotes in his seforim dozens of times that it is ossur to establish a Jewish state. Also printed in sefer Ohr Leyshorim.

    6. The Meharal of Prague in his sefer Netzach Yisroel chelek chaf daled writes about the shalosh shevuous that “even if the goyim will persecute you and torture you and force Jews to take a country for themselves it is prohibited and it’s equal to shmad rch”l.”

    7. In sefer Mara Dara Yisroel chelek beis – he writes about the Chovevei Zion who were the predecessors of the Zionists – R’ Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer was their leader – he explain that they themselves had no intention whatsoever of establishing a state because it was so obvious that it was ossur, they were just planning to buy certain shtachim to be able to be mekayam mitzvos hatlium baaretz. And even to that there was major opposition.

    8. The Rambam in Igeres Teiman paskens that it is ossur for them to establish a state for themselves and he warns them that they should not be oiver on this issur since it is also a tremendous sekkana.

    I think you get the idea – there are thousands more and if I’ll have time and YWN will allow I will post some. If you seek the truth you find it.

    As far as your comment that we had no menucha for 2000 yrs – you are absolutely right, after all we are in galus, but the zionists promised us NEVER AGAIN. We will never have any worries about our safety…..

  31. rabbiofberlin- The Baba Sali, the previous Skulener Rebbe, the previous Pupa Rav, Tzelemer Rav, Krasna Rebbe, Slonimer Rebbe, Munkatcher Rebbe, Kashau Rav, Pshevorsker Rav, the Chazon Ish are among many others who were opposed to creating a “Jewish State.” I would be intrested in knowing which known Gedolim supported creating a state through the means of force. (many gedolim supported living in Eretz Yisroel but not with means and the idiology of the zionist

  32. chassidigal- i saw your sources and i will check them out in THE ORIGINAL as i don’t trust any assertions that you say. Very specifically, I will check out the “igeres teiman” (I don’t believe what you are writing), I will check out the Maharal, because again, I don’t believe your interpretation is correct, and R’ joasan Eibeshitz,with the same reasoning.
    All the other sources are too modern for me to accept, as they don’t base any of these decisions (if decisions they were) on anything tangible.
    to big mo- again, you are quoting people of the twentieth century and I daresay you will have to showe me the actual quotations to take you even seriously.

  33. Don’t trust me. Though shall never trust strangers. Let me know what you find. I’m still looking up the exact other sources.

    Meantime while you’re at it – since it appears that the shalosh shevuous are an outright gemara I am very interested to know which sources and gedolim – not of the twentieth century and of modern times – have paskenned that it is permissible to establish a Jewish state (and one that requires initial and continuous armed forces in battle against other nations).

    I’m approaching this issue with an open mind and I really would appreciate to assess the legitimate rulings on both sides.

  34. dear chassidigal- the only source for all of the possible “shittos” is the gemoro at the end of Kesubbos concerning “shalosh shevuos”. This has been debated for a long time and there are plenty of answers to this gemoro why it DOES NOT apply today. For example- this is a nevuoh of jirmijohu-yet Am Yisroel DID go back after the first churbon and rebuild the yishuv and the Bais Hamikdosh- so why would this old nevuoh be applicable today? There are many other answers, not least that we don’t pasken like r”jehudah.
    anyway- if you have any interest in some answers, you can look up “Shivat Zion” by R’Zvi Hirsh Kalisher and there is an interesting sefer called “Le’or Hanetzach” published about fifty years ago by the AGUDAH ,edited by Moshe Prager and which contains many essays by all Gedolim on Israel. YOu would be VERY surprised to read the positive views of the gedolim on israel.Anyway- if you want to continue this debate, please open a thread in the coffee room>Then you might get a lot of people participating.

  35. I see you have only sources from modern times as backing.

    I’ll open a thread in coffee room tonight or tomorrow iy”h, but I’m very curious let me know when you look up the Maharal, Igeres Teiman and R’ Yonesen Eibeshitz, what you find. Thanks.

  36. chassidigal- when you mention that I only have “sources from modern times”- lok at your own sources. The vast majority are from this past century (twentieth)and even more recent writings. The absolute fact is that there is only ONE source in all of Shas that SEEMS to prohibit a return to Eretz Yisroel and a re-establishment of Jewish sovereginity. This is clear. Hence, all the people dealing with it quote that gemoro in kessubos. My point was that there are numerous answers to that gemoro and, obviously, because the actual arguments only arose recently, the poeple advocating a retunr to Jewish sovereignity are also of recent date. Only the Rambam may be considered an early version and ,as I said, i don’t think that this is what he writes in Iggeres teiman.Goodl uck on your coffee thread.

  37. cassifigal-if you are stil lreading these comments now (we are some pages removed from current news) i had the opportunity to read the “Iggeres Teiman” and also the passage that you seem to bindicate that the Rambam may hold like R’ jehudah. Actually,he does NOT write anything like what you are intimating. By the way, the original was written in Arabic so any trasnlation can be misleading. The Rambam says that Jews should not give in to despair amongst all the persecutions and that we should wait till the Almighty Hinself brings the redemption “be-ahavah”(second half of the possuk)He does not say anything about how this redemption will be. He does not quote the other shevuos (shelo jaalu bechomo)and clearly he wants to prevent that the Jews of yemen (and more) fall prey to false messiahs due to their terrible conditions. HOW this geulah will appear, he does not write at all.
    Furthermore, it is clear from the Rambam (Hilchos melochim, perek 6, mishne 12) that he does NOT pasken like r’Jehudah. I’ll let oyu decipher how I deduct this from the Rambam, In any case ,there is aboslutely no proof from the Rambam anywhere that he would object to Jewish sovereignity over Eretz Yisroel.

  38. Okay I’m not debating this any longer. The fact remains that ALL the big rabbonim and poskim (except for rav Reinus)from 100 yrs. ago and back paskenned that it was ossur to establish a Jewish state. Brisker rav said that even if the Chofetz Chaim would be president it would still be ossur. and many more quotes.

    It seems that you’re stuck in your opinion and no matter how much proof I’ll bring you’ll always find reason not to accept it. Either it’s too modern… (150 yrs. ago…) or it’s not interpreted right or whatever….. I’m going back to my original statement that it is actually a tremendous nissoyon to accept that the State of Israel exists entirely kneged hatorah. It keeps moshiach from coming. there’s a popular gemara that says (I’m not sure where)”moshiach ben david cannot come until every iota of Jewish government is abolished”. Many gedolim (not satmar) before the war said that moshiach will not come until Tel Aviv is ccompletely destructed. Whether you like to hear it or not.

    It looks like your from the mizrachi party according to your interpretations. Being that I’m a descendant from the Belz dynasty and the Belzer rebbe (r’yisocher dov) said (don’t ask me for a source, because it’s a fact that thousands of his chassidim including my grandfather heard from his mouth) that one must have in mind the believers in the mizrachi and zionist parties by the bracha v’lamalshinim by the words “vchol haninim krega yoveidi” – this doesn’t mean they should perish, (and you are probably not in this klal because you’re a tinuk shenishba) just their twisted kefiradige thinking should perish. And they should it is not permissible to argue with someone with such beliefs. So I will not be able to continue answering you. Thanks for your communication till now, and I hope I didn’t hurt you. Good luck for the future.

  39. well, chassidigal, if you are a descendant of the belz dynasty, my family are vishnitzer chassdimg and we have always sadi that “ahavas yisroel’ is the most important. sadly, you have shown ZILCH-ZERO “ahavas yisroel” in your comments and you still haven’t shown me any reason why to believe your assertions. you mentioned “iggeres taiman” and i told you i actually read the Rambam’s comments and they have absolutely nothing to do with jewish sovereignity over eretz yisroel.
    you make wild assertions and accusations and you put words into gedolim’s mouth that I do NOT believe for one moment are true!
    so, unfortunately, you have left the field of honest debate abd yo uhave turned your back on “milchamto shel torah”. sad and i feel bad for you.