MAILBAG: The Problem With Cholov Yisroel

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Dear Readers,

I wish to share with you my personal thoughts on an issue that I have seen and likely many of you have experienced as well, and in fact have read about on occasion before, and feel it is high time to express, discuss, and fairly expediently, resolve.

We can all relate to that utter disgust that overcomes us when we simply smell a spoiled bottle of milk. Worse yet, assuming a product to still be fresh since it was only recently purchased and noting that the stamp indicates ample time till expiration, taking a sip of a glass of spoiled milk. I can’t tell you how many times I have prepared my ingredients for a cheesecake only to open the container of cream cheese and smell the sour aroma wafting through my kitchen. Just this week I had to throw away two packages of sour cream, from two different companies mind you, that upon opening looked like curdled soup in contrast to the thick and creamy texture that sour cream should be. These events are unfortunate, especially when we realize that we invested double the price as compared to the alternatives.

I have become extremely frustrated with this phenomena. My husband graciously accepted the stringency of eating Cholov Yisroel while in his fifth grade class, as a merit for the terrible attacks happening in Eretz Yisroel. He maintains this stringency till today, and I and our family gladly accepted this beautiful halacha and custom when we got married. We cannot help but notice, that without fail, and on the items that are noticeably more expensive than the other kosher, non Cholov options, a majority of milk, sour cream, heavy cream, and other products that we purchase spoil very rapidly, many times way before the stamped expiration date.

It is nearly impossible to reach anyone to provide feedback regarding this phenomena as the product all lost shell companies rarely either website, and of course without a phone number listed or web contact. There is essentially no real way to voice concern for this issue, and no person to hold accountable for these for lack of a better term, failures. I could replace the item at the supermarket, if they are willing, as they usually are, to replace it. But it is the concept that is all to problematic.

I have spoken to a few places, and the only reasonable explanation I have heard, is actually counter-intuitive. All milk products in the US are regulated the same way with extra scrutiny by the FDA. The Cholov Yisroel sourced products are no different than, and often come from plants, that mainly produce non Cholov Yisroel options for the public. The speed of spoiling quickly occurs, potentially, due to the trucking and the standards taking place after products leave the plant. One theory is that the trucking utilized for the Cholov Yisroel brands are lax in their handling, and upkeep of the cold temperatures necessary to keep dairy products from spoiling. Another idea suggested it is the receiving at stores that exhibit some carelessness while receiving goods at their loading docks, leaving items on sidewalks, exposed to heat, or simply not refrigerated as it should be. In all likelihood, there are a number of contributing factors that are responsible for the degradation of the product integrity over time – a severe lack of care for a consumer already making multiple sacrifices in the selection purchased, the cost of said purchase, and the limited time to use it before it goes bad.

Friends, I believe we need to take the words of Rav Moshe Feinstein Z”tl in one of the Cholov Yisroel Teshuvos to heart – where he writes that a “Baal Nefesh Yachmir” , loosely translated as “One who is concerned with their soul should be stringent in this”, and apply it to the macro of the situation and experience of fellow people. Apart from the “V’ahavta L’reyacha K’amocha” regarding the price or cost expended on maintaining Cholov Yisroel products, the standards of the Cholov Yisroel Industry – from the factory to our homes, needs to maintain the respect and dignity deservant of said stringency and the people seeking to keep it. I encourage anybody who knows anyone in a position of influence or control in this industry, supermarkets, trucking companies, brokers, etc., please let the individuals with the ability to do something about this to know about this article and suggest that they immediately order a review of the procedures, or lack thereof, contributing to the product degradation and identify the cause of this phenomena along with actions to remedy it.

Yours Truly,

Eva David, MD

NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.

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79 COMMENTS

  1. I commend you for writing this piece. C”Y milk rots and reeks in half the time of “regular” milk. I gave up on C”Y milk years ago and I argue with my wife each time she tries sneeking one into the house. Those C’Y fraudsters strongly believe that since you have to drink their product, you will buy it no matter what the quality or duration of the product is. I am here to say that is not the case. They will have to answer one day for the inferior products they make at the expense of hard working families.

  2. Try Pride of the Farm milk.
    Best milk out there.
    It lasts way past the expiration date. Other milks come home smelling from the grocery.

  3. What it takes to start is for some enterprising people to set up a demonstration project, a single, properly managed supply chain from farm to our fridge, to demonstrate what really works. Guaranteed freshness might even enjoy more of a premium price in the early stages. Success would lead to imitation.

    Remember— somehow our glatt meat reaches us in good shape!

  4. It’s a tremendous convenience and bracha that many mainstream reputable frum Rabbonim permit non- CY Milk from anywhere in the United States. There are many frum communities in the US and Canada outside from the epicenters of NYC, Chicago, Toronto, LA, Miami where CY milk may very well be transported from hundreds if not thousands of miles away; likely resulting in quicker spoilage. Also, those “out of town” communities may simply not have the ability to easily find CY dairy goods around their corner. I personally drink non-CY dairy products, which allows me to enjoy dairy goods in far-out places like Alaska, Hawaii, Utah, and the Carolinas (if I were to drive from NY to FL). My frum relatives in Cincinnati are able to enjoy nearly every dairy product in their local supermarkets (Cottage Cheese, milk, yogurts, puddings, chocolates, cakes, etc) ; which would be nearly impossible if they observed CY. While frum Jews in Europe, Asia, and most stretches of the Earth are not recommended to drink non CY Milk, a Jew in Alabama can enjoy milk purchased at his/her local Walmart.

  5. Since we have solved all the issues Yiden face,
    Between shiduchim crisis to schools closing
    It’s amazing to read about the next big issues The Yiden face
    Spoiled milk

  6. You think this is a milk issue because you went from Chalav Stam to Chalav Yisroel.

    It’s really an issue with kosher everything. If you were a BT or ger you would realize that kosher meats last much less time than non-kosher, but you don’t have the option of eating non-Jewish brands for that. Chalav is a niche in halachah where it became mutar to consume the mainstream goyish brands, and people realized how much better the quality is; many have made the mistake of thinking it’s limited to milk alone.

    Be honest, do you not find your kosher meats also regularly spoiling before the expiration date? You do; you just assumed that was normal for meat.

  7. I simply cannot agree with the author that “the product all lost shell companies rarely either website.” I will need to see evidence for this incredible claim. We have to face the reality that we are living in a world where neither beheimos gassos within where milk doesn’t already treif internet. Cholov Yisroel or not!

  8. The FDA can be contacted about these things. They won’t care about the issue being chalav yisroel. What they will take into consideration is to hear about consistent product names or company names selling spoiled products with an expiry date that isn’t expired. If it is happening in a variety of stores it most likely isn’t the shelving issue. But the FDA, if it is a serious enough complaint, can then inspect what the issue is – whether it is in the pasteurization process or in the shipping or shelving etc. There are way too many variables and impossible to point fingers at whose fault it is – it needs to be inspected.

    It would be ideal to test for bacterial growth directly from the products from the store shelf to show proof to the FDA.

    All these things take a big effort to complain about. But if you have the koach and it is worth it to you, go for it!

  9. The problems with spoilage of cholov Yisroel products used to be common. In recent years I have rarely had milk spoil within a week of purchase and although the texture of recently purchased sour cream is not to my liking the flavor is as it should be. Years ago spoilage was common, but in recent years handling has improved.

  10. There is a very simple solution to the problem. Whenever you get spoiled dairy products, return it to the store for a refund. The store returns the product to the company for a refund. If enough people return spoiled products, it will hit the company where it hurts — in their bottom line. They will then take the steps to rectify the situation.

  11. I once read that the problem was that the machinery isn’t cleaned properly at the plants which leads to bacteria growth and spoilage. I’m sure handling has a lot do with it though.

    I use chalav stam and can tell you I rarely have a problem with dairy products spoiling. In fact the milk has been fine even a few days past the expiration date. This is unheard of with chalav Yisrael milk On Pesach when I use only c”y I started freezing the extra milk after I buy it to make sure it lasts till the end of Pesach because I got sick and tired of being stuck with spoiled milk close to the end of Yom Tov.

    In my humble opinion, part of the issue is that they have a captive market. They get away with it because they can. Those who hold by c”y don’t really have a choice so the dairy companies don’t suffer any loss by selling an inferior product and have no incentive to improve

    If those people would all switch to chalav stam for a month so that the c”y companies feel it in their sales, I’m pretty confident you’d see a quick improvement. Short of that they have very little incentive to make things better.

    That’s the unfortunate reality.

  12. basically most stores rotate their refrigerated items quite well but i have experienced many times when you have your order deliverd to your home the supermarket places the boxes on the outside with temperatures hovering between 80-100 degrees and of course spoilage will happen. when i go shopping i make sure i take some products home with me to avoid spoilage…mostly in the winter they dont get spoiled so fast

  13. If you dare try to open a chalav Yisroel dairy farm and charge better price/offer better quality, you’ll get attacked. The business isn’t as kosher as the hechsher.

  14. While reading this i suspected this writer was from out of town (cholov yisrael is very hard there from what I hear) and i see that im correct. Dont know wat to tell you besides out of town is very hard to get fresh cholov yisrael milk. Not enough demand

  15. This is a 1. Loss of money issue, which in many areas of Halacha is the basis for many Heterim 2. This is a Supply Chain problem.

    From the time the milk is Bottled, an independent panel in NY, NJ should be set up to observe IN SURPRISE VISITS, how long the cholov Yisroel milk sits before it is loaded onto trucks, and IF THE TRUCKS ARE PROPERLY REFRIGERATED TO >36 Degrees at all times, even at rest stops and drop off locations, and How long the Cartons Sit before being loaded into store refrigerators.

    Why do CONSUMERS give so much confidence to Suppliers and Hashkachos without CHECKING what they do?!

    Monetary loss incurred by spoiled Milk should be quite enough to get a Heter not to use it. If enough people stop Buying it, it will force the Suppliers and Sellers to FRESHEN UP THEIR ACT!!

  16. Problem?out of all places a site called “Yeshiva world” is allowing articles about problems of yideshkiet???
    What an embarrassment

  17. In over 50 years of using strictly cholov yisroel products (of which there are so many more now than ever before), I have never experienced what Dr. David describes. While there is the occasional spoiled item, the same is true for fresh fruit,, bakery items found in the supermarket, and so on. I’m sorry that you’ve had the experiences you’ve had, but it seems to me that supermarkets and manufacturers by and large stand behind their products (at least this is true where we live), so there is recourse when there is a problem.

  18. I am waiting for the day when the
    Orthodox Union “OU” starts giving a
    Cholov Yisroel certification on a Cholov stam milk company without a
    Heimishe Hechsher!!!
    Walk into a Walmart, ShopRite, Costco see for yourself the pricing on half a gallon milk
    Golden flow at $2.69 half gallon Vs $2.99 per gallon at Walmart, ShopRite, Costco!
    All it takes for a kosher milk product to become Cholov Yisroel is a Jewish couple living on the farm to supervise every milking session!
    How many cases of dairy items needs to be sold for the Jewish couple living on the farm to pay for itself!
    Why are we paying for sour cream double the price? Mehadrin Butter is $9 a pound ShopRite, Walmart, Costco it’s $4.50 a pound

    Cholov Yisroel is a scam

    In Benjamin Franklin we trust!

    Pay more get less!

  19. I am a physician and was once hospitalized for what later was determined to be bacterial food poisoning from a spoiled cheese. I underwent a lumbar puncture and was hospitalized a few days even prior to the correct diagnosis (+ stool cx) . I take this very personally. From improper handling/temp control to slow store turnover (i live very very “out of town”), so many variables involved. What rattles me most is how many kosher companies don’t print manufacturing or best buy dates on frozen foods. I will not purchase those items.

  20. I live in an out-of-town community. After several summers of green moldy cheeses and$5/gal souring milk, I dropped cholov yisroel. Why other distribution channels of non -CY that has to travel much greater distances to market outlasts the CY product is beyond me. Since the CY companies have no incentive to improve their product they will continue to deliver it in 1972 Studebaker trucks with some ice cubes in the rear as refrigerant. I can guarantee you that their supply chain is not properly temperature controlled.

    I invite ANYONE in that industry to refute my words on this forum.

  21. the problem is not the C”Y. its the local stores & supermarkets who have limited refrigerator space especially before Yomim Tovim when they are receiving much bigger quantities especially Pesach when most stores are selling chometzdik as well as Pesachdik products. not having adequate refrigeration, perishables are kept for longer periods of time out of refrigerator prior to stocking as well as awaiting to be delivered. still this is not an excuse for compromising on the dinim of cholov yisroel. you can go shopping early in the morning just as deliveries are coming in and immediately take them home and refrigerate to reduce the probability of spoilage rather than be lax on halacha.

  22. Talmidchochom: what makes you such a Talmid Chuchem? hundreds of thousands jews around the world are makpid to drink only chulev yisroel and you talmid chuchim think differnt?

  23. Thank you Eva for publicizing what many of us have felt all along.
    What bothers me most about so-called “Heimisha” companies is that there is no way to contact them! Look at any goyishe company product, from canned corn to cold cereal to swiss fudge cookies to orange juice to whole wheat bread (yes paas palter GASP!) to frozen ice cream bars and you will find an 800 number, an email, a website, etc… With the Heimishe companies, GORNISHT. Too bad. It’s not our problem. We don’t want to hear about it. We made our money, get lost. They are above the law. They are cowboys in their own right. They come and brag by the Kosherfest and other such trade shows, as if they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Only a naive gullible fool believes that their 2nd rate products compare to the standard “goyishe” companies/corporations as far as quality, taste, appearance, health, freshness, PRICE, and being treated like a wanted consumer. Hiring a popular marketing team to push their products doesn’t change the metzias hadvorim.
    Yes, I’ve heard many speeches when I first got married that I MUST switch to Chalav Yisroel only. Consuming Chalav Stam is a terrible aveira. It’s mitamtem halev and you’re a lowlife drek if continue to eat Good Humor ice cream bars. It’s even worse than not wearing a white shirt. Bla bla bla.
    I once met an older single bachur in Manheim Pennsylvania who said he was thee Mashgiach for a certain milk plant, including Shabbos, that supplies so-called Chalav Yisroel milk to all the Heimishe companies. Ever since then I’ve always doubted the legitimacy of the whole chalav yisroel charade.

  24. HooragHWN got another story with which to bash the Frum, Torah’dik Yidden. They’ve been missing such material for about two weeks already. As for the author, it is a good point. Too many just relish at the
    opportunity to bash what ChaZal have declared sacred. To drop the opportunity of adhering to what ChaZal have declared sacred and about which Reb Moshe even stated בעל נפש יחמיר לעצמו, why would we not care to work on and fix the problem.
    CSR1 has the right attitude. Work on a solution like SR1

  25. Reb moshe feinstein in Responsa y”d 1 #20 re bloating vet procedure makes the cow treifah. The treifah would be with the DA procedure as well.
    The procedures are done on 4-8 % of the cows. Shishim is 1.6% .

    Thereefore according to reb moshe. There no choliv stam only cholov yisroel or cholov treifah.

  26. The problem in all likelihood lies in the transportation, storage, and how fast it gets into a refrigerated area after delivery.
    The reason I quit on CY years ago was a lack of confidence in a manufacturer who wipes his hands after the product leaves his facility.
    Not a person I assume is extra frum.
    Think about it.

  27. Neither milk nor meat are necessary for survival. Neither supply nutrients that can’t be found in alternative food sources. An intelligent person, when faced with an annoyance, eliminates it when at all possible. There, I’ve solved the problem for you. Don’t bother to thank me; it’s my pleasure.

  28. To Talmidchochom (and all others of the same opinion):
    I have used Cholov Yisroel for over fifty years and have not found it to be as bad as you say! I check every dairy product purchased with the dates and smell. On rare occasions I find a smell and take another container from the shelf. I remember 50 years ago when the quality was poor. This is not the case today.
    You call yourself a “Talmidchochom” what do you do with the Haloches in Yore-Deah that prohibits cholov-akim? If you want to quote me the Igres-Moshe, Then look at the end of the 3rd Tshuvah where he says not to use it if you don’t really need it. What about the harm to the Neshumah of those using Cholov-akim/stam? Their learning and davening?
    Today, even the Frum Yeshiva world uses cholov-yisroel whenever possible. The government fines are meaningless for someone with a reason to mix in non-kosher products. The fear of government is not really there today. Today government inspectors in the food industry don’t really look at all these items closely; especially if does not relate to ecology.

  29. Cholov Yisroel is no longer a chumra, it may be an obligation due to the lack of supervision of the operations performed on the cows which render them treifos.

  30. Have you tried contacting the organizations that send mashgichim? Maybe they could tell you how to get in touch with the companies.

  31. I live in Lakewood and shop in several different groceries. I have NEVER experienced buying spoiled dairy products and this is over many years (more than 40).

  32. The problem is the Jewish delivery companies & stores do not handle the dairy products properly. I have seen first hand the difference between the Cholov Yisroel delivery companies to the local Jewish stores as compared to the non Jewish ones delivering to Shoprite, Stop & Shop, Fairway etc. The non Jewish ones use a forklift to remove pallets of dairy product from a refrigerated truck & drive it immediate into the large refrigerators where it is sorted & shelved – never being in room temperature for more than a few minutes. Many of these stores can load the fridge from behind the display within the fridge itself – The opposite is true with the Jewish delivery companies & stores. Many times I see pallets of dairy products sitting outside the store in the heat or cold as well as inside the store at room temperature for hours before a worker will come along & put in the fridge. If our people cared at all they would never handle the any dairy products this way – but they don’t. This is why I only buy cholov yisroel where there isn’t an alternative from cholov stam. Better to save the difference in price & give it to tzedakah!!!

  33. Hard to say the YWN Mailbag is a garbage bag, as some real issues appear. But there are times when I question whether the issues are real, or common enough to have relevance to the reading public. I live in town, and the stores where I shop are relatively good in getting refrigerated materials out of the truck and into appropriate storage. It is a rare occasion that I find an expired product on the shelves (I refer to one that has truly expired regardless of the package date). I suggest that there is a matter of delivery at play, and the products spend too much time without refrigeration. I question whether this problem pertains to the public that lives in town. I cannot speak for out of town that has other variables that increase the time between production and consumption.

  34. I could not disagree more. This used to be a problem and is NEVER a problem any more. Milk lasts in my fridge for at least a week. It has NEVER ruined my cooking. I bet this is why cholov stamm chocolate and Ice cream is found in the same houses as the milk. If you want to rely on the heter for cholov stamm then do so (Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Chazon Ish were both gedolei hador and they said it is okay) but don’t blame it and publicly denigrate cholov yisrael. It is wrong and could discourage others from using it and cause business losses as well.

  35. I agree with you that the milk souring fast is a problem. HOWEVER, PLEASE review the Tshuva of Reb Moshe ZATZA”L before you QUOTE/MISQUOTE the great Posek. He clearly writes the heter ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIVE IN AREAS WHERE CHOLOV YISROEL IS NOT AVAILABLE. By the way, as a traveling salesman, I find that by now it is available in 95% of the USA. (My neighbor who is not religous just told me that her non-cholov yisroel milk also SOURS VERY FAST.

  36. First of all, before anyone starts touting living out of town as a reason to not keep chalav yisroel, I live in a very far out out of town community, I have to travel far to obtain chalav yisroel products, at double the price as other companies, yet it’s still something that I’m proud to keep. Of course there are heterim, and inconveniences as stated in the above letter, but don’t be so quick to dismiss the importance and beauty of being stringent in this area. Btw, some companies are really bad, and I’ve learnt to avoid them, while other CY companies are generally pretty fresh. Just be a smart costumer!

  37. So we now have our annual ‘cholov yisroel thread”. Looking back over the years, there seem to be fewer complaints about the chronic problem of cholov yisroel products spoiling quicker then regular dairy products but as the author of the letter notes, it is still a real issue in most regions of the country. There is probably blame to go around between the producers and distributors who fail to monitor their supply chain to assure adequate refrigeration and the retailers who also fail to provide proper storage and sometimes sell products past their pull dates. Bottom line: Until the situation improves, each family must decide for itself the tradeoffs between betweening machmir (and enduring occasional spoiled milk) versus using cholov stam until the industry is able to assure delivery of top quality products..

  38. ” He clearly writes the heter ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIVE IN AREAS WHERE CHOLOV YISROEL IS NOT AVAILABLE”

    I would argue what he means is… “the heter ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIVE IN AREAS WHERE FRESH CHOLOV YISROEL IS NOT AVAILABLE”

    It’s ironic, as im reading this, my in laws asked me to pick up a container of milk for them since the one bought s unday is spoiled….

  39. When I first moved to NY, I started keeping CY since it was so easy, and I could afford it.
    I also found that CY products went bad much faster than regular dairy products.
    So I gave up.
    There is a heter for Chalav Stam in America, there is no heter for bal tashchis.

  40. Here’s part of the problem. And it’s worse the hotter the weather is. When the big supermarkets receive the dairy products it goes straight into refrigeration. When C”Y products get delivered, it sits out in the heat for hours until the grocery stores open up to take the stuff inside.

  41. “as the product all lost shell companies rarely either website, and of course without a phone number listed or web contact.” Is this English?

  42. This has happened too often, and I now procure powdered milk, which:- 1) Keeps way longer; 2) Maybe less subject to requirement of being Cholov Yisroel.
    Only 2 weeks a year, when I am Makpid on Cholov Yisroel:- 1) Pessach; 2) Asseres Yemei Teshuva:- Yes:- Chumro of Pas Yisroel also applies to Cholov Yisroel during Asseres Yemei Teshuva, believe it or not.

  43. The day I switched to Pride of the Farm is the day I stopped having problems. Other Cholov Yisroel brands were constantly spoiling on me. Pride of the Farm easily lasts a week or more past the expiration. Last year I went away for bein hazmanim and forgot a milk in the back of the fridge. When I got back it was two weeks past the expiration date and tasted perfectly fresh. The same goes for other Pride of the Farm products. I will not purchase other brands and stopped shopping at one of the Lakewood groceries when they stopped carrying Pride of the Farm products.

  44. A short while ago I was walking in the street about 2:30 3:00 am on a warm night. I saw a milk truck delivering milk and milk products to grocery stores in Boro Park . The milk was left in the warm summer outdoors. The stores first open and take in the milk 4-5 hours later! I was shocked and wanted to video it. I think that answers the question.

  45. Many hechsherim allow cameras to be used for supervision. If that would be adopted here, you would have cholov yisroel at normal farms for close to regular price. I am aware that many do not allow cameras.

  46. GadolHatorah, your last post is dead wrong! You are a self professed GadolHatorah but Gadol Hador or Posek Hador. What right do you have to paaskin? What are your credentials? Every family has the same chiyuv as you and me to follow Shulchan Aruch. Period

  47. Yudel Shain is 100% correct here. Unfortunately, there is a miut of treifus which are not batul, thus many poskim, including Rav Hershel Shachter of YU, hold one cannot consume chalav stam today at all.

    Furthermore, I must say, I never have the problem of Cholov Yisroel milk spoiling – when I buy it at ShopRite or Wal-Mart. I have friends who eat cholov stam who told me when they purchase chalav stam from those frum groceries which sell it, it spoils as fast or faster than Cholov Yisroel. This leads me to believe that it has nothing to do with Golden Flow, Dvash, or cholov Yisroel at all. Rather, the problem is that by frum stores, the milk sits outside without refrigeration for hours. By Shoprite, that doesn’t happen.

    Blaming the Cholov Yisroel companies here is a huge mistake – and motze shem ra – as it’s not their fault at all. Buy Cholov Yisroel, keep kashrus, and support yidden – but only from responsible stores that refrigerate immediately

  48. for those who suggest pride of the farm, I do not see that on the shelves of brooklyn stores. There maybe an issue with the maufacturing, are they pasteurizing at the proper temperature or is it to higher then it should be?

  49. I believe there is a range that different states allow companies to put dates on their milk. Did you ever notice that the really new and fresh CY can have a date that is 3 weeks away but the CS is never more than two weeks away? They may have been both taken from the cow on the same day but one bottle will say Aug 14 and the other Aug 21. It could just be that the CY companies are more “maikil” and will stamp it Aug 21 giving you the impression that it will actually last longer than the CS equivalent.
    Did you ever notice the two diferent stamps on milk which say “in NYC ( 5 days earlier)”. Does milk actually spoil faster in NYC than the rest of the world? No, it’s just different laws.

    Those commenting on the superiority of Pride of the Farm in this respect could have to do with the fact that it was owned by R. Tendler ZT”L who was a tzadik and ran the company k’das v’kdin. He did not start it as a business to make money but rather as a service to the Bnei Torah community of Baltimore

  50. Comments are too long to read……but just to clear the air….. eating only Cholov yisrael is not a mere stringency…….whilst eating chalav stam is a very big leniency

  51. I didn’t read all the comments. We have similar probs in LA as many products come from further. Bh there is a new company here. Lets hope it gets better. But this is what I do. All can do the same.
    1) know the day the milk arrives. But it within a couple days of that.
    2) know the companies and get used to what the date means. One company will say a date three weeks out and I would never buy it use within two weeks of that date. other companies such as the one sold in our local regualr supermarket (for more) has an earlier date but stays fresh close to that date.
    3) make a relationship with the small makolet owner rather than the large store. They should take care of you and altho it says mo milk returned, allow returns if prompt. It’s worth it for their business
    4) look at the back for the newest date

  52. yeshivishrockstar2

    Rav Schachter DOESN’T DRINK MILK in the United States. It doesn’t make a difference if it’s CY or CS! After the concern about treyfos, Rav Belsky went hell to the farms and the dairies to do the research. It’s because of his psak that we still drink milk.

  53. I will preface my remarks by saying I’ve been in the industry for 30 years. I have supervised CY and a lot of CS.

    The FACT is that the CY companies aren’t as stuck on temperatures that CS is. I don’t believe the problem is in the dairies themselves, I believe the problem has to do with everything afterwards.

    As others have commented, probably without knowing what they were talking about, milk needs to be kept at 33 degrees to maintain its best freshness. Government law allows the trucks which haul the packaged milk to be maintained up until 45 degrees. Do the math if the company could maintain the truck temperature at 45 degrees, they will save gas because they won’t have to run the refrigeration at 33. The problem with anything higher than 33 is it the milk begins to spoil and spoil faster.

    How many times have we seen in stores where the milk cases are not maintained at 33-35 degrees ? I say just about all the time!

    As far as the person who commented over and over about Pride of the Farm, I’m sorry they have problems also. Your milk can spoil just as easily. I know you like Baltimore but the milk ISN’T any better despite the marketing campaign.

    The fact is that the quality of CS milk and ANY other CS dairy product is far superior, far far superior, to anything CY! IT’S NOT EVEN CLOSE!

  54. Wow were just before 9 B’av and then we go into Elul. Klal Yisroel has so much to worry about other than having world’s #1 freshest milk for the 9 days… Interesting how most commonly negative, disgruntled posters here always have spoiled bottles in the fridge.. how about checking your electricity

    It it also so unfair that tznius cloths are so expensive, that Matza for pesach and the Esrog for Sukkos cost a bomb.. these are our dear mitzvos, we do them with love.

    We all know what R’ Moshe’s psak was, he wrote it out CLEARLY. Same with his hair covering psak for women. And we all know that he once realized he had a drink of CS mistakenly, and threw it up, that’s how horrified he was to drink it.

    If you honestly have a problem, email the milk companies, dont start a whole embarrassment on a frum news website and let all nut-jobs give their reasoning why they don’t drink CY CV”S

  55. The title of letter should be changed. There is NO problem with Chalav Yisroel. The problem lies in the apparent quick spoilage in some of the products sold.

    Some non CY milk carry he hechsherim from national organizations. Clearly ey disagree with Yudel and Rav Shechter on the treifos issue.

  56. How is this chumra a “merit” for attacks in EY? What did the writer’s husband think? That it is magic? Why this? Why not aliya? I suggest chatara although it may not be necessary as it was taken due to a gross misconception.

  57. Rabosai:

    I am 100% certain that the issue is the delivery that allows the product to remain without refrigeration. This is a problem between the store and the shipping. You will notice that supermarkets have loading bays where trucks pull u directly to the building and merchandise is never outdoors. It can then go directly from a cooled truck to the indoors where it goes directly to refrigerated areas. No product is placed outdoors, and there is never time to wait in the heat.

    Next, Golden Flow instituted a technique a few years ago, which is not used by many of the producers of Cholov Stam, and has not been implemented by most other producers of Cholov Yisroel. The milk is placed in a centrifuge that further reduces the bacteria level, and thus retards the spoilage process. This has been extensively studied scientifically, and results in a product with a shelf life that is about a week longer.

    Regardless, there is no CY company to blame here. Talk to your stores, and discover a product that is permitted to stand without refrigeration.

  58. If the author is reading these comments, I hope she realizes why you can’t write these pieces here. The shameless MO posters will relish in any opportunity to bash the Torah which they despise. Reb Moshe is rolling over in his grave.

  59. Way to go Eva! I must say that growing up in Monsey I remember seeing cases of milk sitting outside the local grocery store/bakery waiting for the store to open wondering how it could last sitting in the hot sun. Question of course is, and I don’t know the answer to this, is the milk and cream better tasting for longer periods of time during the winter?

  60. The problem is yes with the companies because they need to come up with a way to make sure the milk stays fresh like delivering during hrs the stores are open or freezing the milk or obtaining access to the stores (which need to stay air conditioned on those hrs).

  61. Well said! If I may add, while consuming only Cholov Yisroel is meritorious, the mitzvah of being honest in business dealings (including providing quality products) it not just meritorious; it is a biblical commandment.

  62. Those who try Non Cy milk & CY products, can see definately see the difference in price & quality. I agree with most who say their CY milk spoils faster, and costs double. Also, for some reason CY milk does not come in Gallons which i think would be a great savings for large heimishe families, but I am sure the reason for that is you can make more money if you sell smaller bottles, or maybe because the companies who make them know that it will not last that long. Besides that I believe the whole kosher industry is a big mafia type of business starting from wine business that was forcing other companies out of business to be a monopoly, to kosher dairy where 2 biggest dairy products companies actually woned by the same company under 2 different names. Same goes to Orange juice companies. Regarding Pride of the farm, it was available long ago in Brooklyn, and I remember the quaility of it great, their yogurts were better & cheaper than others, but then I remember there was a campaign against it probably started by competion who did not like someone stepping in their business, and I don’t see it anymore, so I even thought it was not in business anymore. Same shock and fightng were against Norman’s yougurts when they just came out, but BH we still can get that for cheaper price than the “original” CY companies.

  63. Yapchik: Sorry, but contrary to your assertion, every family has the right to consult with their own rav/posek regarding the use of cholov yisroel versus cholov stam based on their own needs, health conditions etc. If you insist on imposing sour milk and dairy products on your family, good luck with your lower digestive tracts . Good news is that good quality cholov yisroel is now more readily available in most but not all areas.

  64. I think it has to do with the time of delivery and that especially summer time it sits outside waiting for the store to open. Some stores actually give the keys to the company and if you buy milk there it lasts longer. Case in point, i have been away for two weeks and came home expecting my milk to be spoiled as it is 2 days past the stamped later date and the mild was great. Thank you devash farms.

    However, the writer makes a valid point, we should demand a better delivery system. She says she can’t reach them. Without trying i looked up Upstaet Dairy farms (Goldenflow) and Devash farms and their phone numbers were as clear as day in a simple google search. In addition Devash farms has website that lists an email address as well. Fresh and healthy, I would need to know the name of the farm….. If the writer was really interested in making a difference instead of bashing, she would have written that there is an issue (which many f us are aware of) and can we all call so we can make a difference. Unfortunately, it seems that wasn’t the point.

    However, let’s make a difference and write and/or call:
    Upstate Dairy Farms (Goldenflow)
    Address: 54 Walworth St, Brooklyn, NY 11205
    Closes 5PM
    Phone: (718) 488-0700

    Devash Farms LTD.
    POB 664, Monsey, NY 10952
    Phone: 845-426-3000 | Fax: 845-426-3001
    Email: [email protected]
    website: http://www.devashfarms.com

  65. I shop daily for Cholov Yisroel.
    Milk- Golden Flow
    Cream Cheese Givat or J&J
    Hard Cheese Haolam
    Farmer Cheese Mehadrin or J &J
    never ever had any negative experiences.
    The only sour odor emanating is Dr. Eva David’s spoiled attitude on Cholov Yisroel
    Sorry, I am a regular consumer with no financial interest in any food business. How is is it even remotely possible that we are having such a disparity of experiences?

  66. Also as an MD has Dr David conducted the scientific method to test her hypothesis (or her forgone conclusion)?,
    By shopping in different grocery stores or supermarkets?
    Another point if you are miffed by Cholov Yisroel products, but whatever you like, no one cares, why go public with this?
    Her entire diatribe reeks of a very spoiled mindset and agenda.
    I hardly take the time to comment, but this article really upset me.

  67. This issue, to the extent that it exists, is apparently only an issue outside of New York City, Monsey and Lakewood. In those three places it is very rare to experience such spoilage. It must be the extra travel to deliver it out-of-town is the primary contributing factor.

  68. There is another consideration that no one mentioned yet (or I missed it):

    I live in Brooklyn, where the kosher grocery is just one block away. I would never drive to the store, because I would never find a parking spot there, and I would also lose the one I had on my own block too. It is usually just 5 minutes from when I buy the milk until I get it home to my fridge.

    OTOH people who live ‘out of town’ in a rural area might have to drive to their supermarket or grocery. They might be putting the milk into their trunk and making a few other stops. By the time it gets home, it loses it’s margin of freshness and is just about ready to spoil. Come to think of it, this can even apply to the people IN TOWN who complain about milk spoiling.

    Try keeping a small cooler/ice chest INSIDE your car, and put the milk into it for the trip home. See if that makes a difference, and then maybe come back here to apologize.

    BTW – this would happen to Cholov Stam too. And meat, deli, salads, and anything else you blamed the kosher companies for.

  69. “The OU gives a hechsher. You can consume chalav stam”
    Yes, you can consume chalav stam, if your hashkafah includes following OU guidance on matters of kashruth. Many do not and will insist on cholov yisroel where good quality cholov yisroel dairy products are available with good hashgacha.

  70. Milk sold in gallon containers generally costs less than in half gallons or quarts. Gallon containers would be helpful to large families that consume a lot of milk. Yet gallon containers of Cholov Yisroel are non-existent in Flatbush.

    Is this because the milk companies realize that their products are spoilage prone?
    Any other theories why gallon containers are not sold in Flatbush?

  71. PLEASE review the Tshuva of Reb Moshe ZATZA”L before you QUOTE/MISQUOTE the great Posek. He clearly writes the heter ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIVE IN AREAS WHERE CHOLOV YISROEL IS NOT AVAILABLE.

    Ben Hash, I do not rely on R Moshe’s heter, so I have no bias here, but please do not lie. R Moshe says no such thing. On the contrary, he is very clear that his heter is 100% lechatchila, and that he believes this is the halacha, so one may rely on it even in the heart of Borough Park. He merely recommends that a baal nefesh should be machmir, and in another teshuva he requires that schools be machmir. Indeed, it is well known (from eye witnesses) that in his own home they had commercial milk, which he did not drink but his wife and children did.

    I have also heard from a very reliable source that R Moshe was asked how much extra money should one spend on this chumra, and he answered that it is till $100 a year. If keeping “regular” cholov yisroel (as opposed to relying on his shita that commercial milk is cholov yisroel) costs more than $100 a year one needn’t be machmir. And for cheese he said one needn’t spend any more money at all; only if they’re the same price should one be machmir.

    Again, I do not rely on this shita at all. But that is what it is, and the teshuvos are open to all to see, so let’s not spread falsehoods about it.

  72. Perhaps you should all check how cold your refrigerator is set. I recently had my milk turned sour within a few days which was very surprising as I did not have that before. While cleaning my refrigerator it must have been turned off and when it was turned back on it was not set high enough and bingo when i turned it on higher I have no problem

  73. Is this really what we have come to? We have to now rely on kulas because sometimes our milk gets spoiled? Right when things start getting a little inconvenient, we quickly need to be meikel.
    Our grandparents and great grandparents made much bigger sacrafices for yiddishkeit.
    On the bright side, Baruch Hashem that we have nothing more serious to worry about.

  74. First of all I have heard from my Lakewood children that Pride of the Farm lasts longer than other CY products however Pride of the Farm is not available in NY. I do find that while Golden Flow might be a little higher in cost it does last longer. There was a time that I was disgusted by all the spoiled milk that I was throwing down the drain and I did revert back to CS. But it never sat well with me. Since then I buy exclusively CY milk. During three seasons of the year I will buy whichever is cheapest however in the summer months I will spend the extra money and buy only Golden Flow. I haven’t had a problem yet this summer.