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somejew, first we already found here that Ohr Sameach was not an extremist towards religious Zionists. Same with Netziv. Then, there are gedolim that you refuse to acknowledge as gedolim without an explanation, despite those gedolim being accepted by other gedolim.
DaMoshe > I try very hard to have the Afikomen before chatzos, and if possible, to finish the 4th cup by then too. … So I tell my kids beforehand that I want to hear what they have to say,
Upon second reading, I don’t fully agree. I thought you have a problem with kids reading school-prepared divrei Torah that may or may not correspond to what you want to talk about. At the same time, the whole point of the seder is to engage children. If they have something to say on their own, they should say it, maybe in a way you can answer him. The same applies to guests, especially if they are not very observant/knowledgeable, the goal is to get them into the discussion. In some circumstances, you do not even need to read the whole Hagaddah. I am machmir on the main Torah mitzvah of sipur yatziyat mitzrayim than finish 4th cup by chatzos (even number of cups is midrabanan!)
ard> muslims let us live for hundreds of years much better than the christians even with all these quotes,..[H]ashem is the one who decides how they act toward us,
It would be also kefira to say that Hashem’s decision is not dependent on our behavior .. So, maybe we have to admit that sephardim were less annoying to their neighbors than Ashkenazim. We see it in Israel also – Sephardi observant Jews are in less conflict with non-observant ones. And non-observant ones are much more prone to stop by a bet knesset, put a kippah on and daven. Maybe, it is because Sephardim did not go thru haskalah with all resulting bitterness between camps (for example, R Berel Wein suggests that negative attitude of Israeli Labor to religion can be traced back to Russian government forcing religious kahal to select candidates for army recruitment with resulting corruption and suffering by the poor) .
So, we can look at that and try to see when our behaviors are called by that history of bitterness that we do not have to replicate in every generation.
al pi my hagada, children have a say. I always stop before ma nishtana with an awkward pause, saying I can’t continue .. until I have questions.
The question mode might relate to the halakha that a child is not supposed to correct his father, but rather ask him – doesn’t the Torah say this?
So, maybe we are modeling to children how they should express themselves, and not presume they, and their printed divrei Torah, are the answers.R Twersky writes that one thing he does not understand in life is – people, mostly, become wiser with years. At the same time, we are making the most important decisions – haskhafa, job, marriage – when we are young. He says he doesn’t understand how Hashem made the world this way. The only solution is for young people to take input from older people when making those decisions.
So, maybe the goal of teaching children to ask rather than to recite is to develop tis ability to ask for advice when they’ll need it. So, maybe this is the problem with schooling – kids are constantly doing some obscure specialized tasks where they do not need help from parents/mature adults. This conditions them to not seek advice when needed.
Chesky, thanks for the info. Could you ask your Rav to publicize that letter from R Chaim, or at least to send it to those gedolim who are not aware of it and are making decisions based on seemingly incomplete information.
Yaapchik > most parents aren’t as capable
obviously, the question here is what parents who are capable should do. They should not be shy teaching their own Torah knowledge, saying that it is school’s job.
Talking, except maybe worth listening to great experts on the issue instead of your high school Rebbe. R Pliskin, for example, has great books about marriage and middos in general.
yankel > The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity.
interesting. I also saw a paper from Harvard: Modern yeshivas provide insights into development of Qumran communities who isolated themselves from other Jews in the caves and left numerous writings mostly similar to traditional Judaism.
by halakha, I think, you can’t get it back from a child. (discussed in halochos of lending lulav on the first day)
Sam has the best answer.
smerel, exactly. So, according to this shita (that we seem to understand R Landau supports but maybe we are wrong) – daas Torah is not working unless you agree to the decision l’hathila. This is a problem, so I am surprised nobody asked R Landau about this.
there are no pictures – just ask the candidates.
Obviously, a true gadol will refuse calling himself a gadol.
So, if someone calls himself a gadol, he is not.
QED.Avram > ? Why not have a desktop or laptop computer to access the Web if needed, and then if you really need to tap around town rather than having a flip phone, get smartphones from a company like KosherCell,
this is a reasonable idea.
You could also make that computer into a server and have all devices in a house use that one filter. Check T&C whether filter companies will let you, or they would rather have you pay for each device separately. Maybe, they don’t care about rare computer-savvy users. Of course, having filter on the router would also solve this (except connecting via mobile or starbucks).
Avram > The communities you deride as being “Amish” or in a “bubble” have perhaps done the wisest and nicest thing possible for their children
We have a number of people here from these communities. OK, maybe they are OTD by the virtue of showing up here Sometimes they are full of Torah knowledge, but also they are often unable to spell, can’t express themselves, do not have ability to listen to other view, etc. You know it as well as I do.
Avram, a great duolingo example, lets see what we can learn from it:
first, when the account has no admin privileges, you may not be able to install the app. So, you would have to ask the parent whether it is a good idea.
2nd – the kid should know basics of cybersecurity and not give his contact list, etc. As this is really low risk – a great place to check your skills.
3) I am guessing video ads are for the free version, pay $10/month and let your kid learn the languages without distractions. Take it out of his college fund. He’ll thank you later.
4) if you see the screen in the living room, you will notice if ads are becoming too much or inappropriate. Generally, ads follow what they learned about you and what can be sold. Do not go to bad sites and buy,or just search for, several computer items and books from that account to ensure boring ads for years to come.
5) looking up stuff – great time to teach about sources – which ones are reliable, which ones can be biased and why, which ones are true Torah sources and how to determine what the derech is
6) latest challenge – kids go by GPT answers without even going to the source. Still working on this – showing them how to be sceptical with the answer, how to double-check them.> Brisker Rov zt’l said that a certain godol
So, why don’t you drive to R Feldman or to BMG and deliver to relevant authorities all this research about previous gedolim allowing voting – and confirm whether they will keep their view or change it? It will be of interest to many here and all over the world. Same for someone in Israel for R Landau.
GH,
I think the middle ground is to get children engaged themselves, rather than recite materials they were given. You can simply go through those materials in advance and select some or see how you can direct that material to a topic you think they should be paying attention to.Fake, a mitzva in the Torah is for fathers to educate their children. Schools are tools to fulfil that mitzvah. Sometimes, school is useful, sometimes not, sometimes partially useful. Look at Bava Basra describing how education system evolved during 2nd Beis Mikdash times. The first attempt was for fathers to teach sons. It did not work – as a general system – because not fathers were capable of teaching. Then, they tried most exciting teachers in Yerushalaim, then teaching teewangers, … until they came to the system of teaching little kids locally. So, logically, the school system is great to maintain public education, but it does not mean that parents who are capable of teaching should not shoot for better.
See another thread, a quote from ard, attributing success of Steipler in raising a great child was due to him playing out every prasha … why didn’t he just stick to the gemora and leave teaching kids to professionals …
how about this solution that might work for some kids in some families:
the kid gets a fancy computer and any other presents he wants. In exchange, the rules are – he uses computers for 1-2 hours a day, after he did homework, in the living room with the screen towards the public. Preferably, a parent or an older sibling is there also, so that they can discuss interesting things they learn online.Baki, you are right. Just collect all vorts at the beginning and give them out as afikoman. Then, sit down and have a conversation with your children. Let them ask their own questions. Or teach them how if they do not know how to ask.
kako, if it were for you, R Akiva would not have been able to add his opinion to Hagadah, and probably others too.
Chesky, if we trust your testimony, then what are we to of R Landau’s position that R Chaim did not hear the right question (or of posters who say that video is AI-produced?). Was now he mislead?
It seems that you hold that we can rely on gedolim to produce correct thinking subject to input they get. There are probably some gedolim who agree with that. for example, R Eliyashiv admitted that “I am not a navi” with confronted with information that was withheld from him.
I think the simplest resolution would be for someone to respectfully deliver this additional info to R Landau and R Feldman and to see how they respond. If it is not possible to get this information to a Rav, that would also be useful info. Any takers here close any of them?
Of course, you can simply point to the kol koreh that publicly admitted that there are Talmidei Chachamim who have an opposite opinion, although they did not quote them the way Beis Hillel would.
Avram, in terms of true need –
you are aware that cars kill more people than internet, right? Do most people think twice before taking a ride to a store? I think we are relying that Hashem protects simple people doing routine activities. Internet is still news for some communities, but you can be sure that in one more generation, it will be like cars. Do I need to be careful looking for Torah lectures? for historical information? stock prices? kids doing SAT? And, of course, I don’t think you are accessing YWN via a dialup, so this discussion is highly theoretical.There is a principle – you do not have to spend money (or time that is equivalent) on sofek medrabonan. for example, R Feinstein says that you were not able to immediately find out whether a store is owned by Jews and whether it sold chametz properly, you can buy from that store after Pesach instead of spending time investigating it. I wonder whether this can be used here: say, I am not sure whether I’ll end up seeing inappropriate pictures if I venture into a risky endeavor of ordering airline tickets, I don’t have to spend more time & money to order tickets over the phone. Of course, if I am such at person that might start calling 900 numbers under those pictures, then it is isur meduoraita and I need to be TAGged immediately.
somejew > Netziv strongly advises against complete separation even from those within the community who may seem lax or different in their observance, arguing that such division weakens the Jewish people, especially in exile, and makes them vulnerable. However, his solution is not to actively collaborate with outright heretics (apikorsim or those who deny the Talmud – like today’s “religious” zionists). Rather, he advocates for strengthening the entire observant community – including the less meticulous – through widespread, communal Torah study, even if initially pursued shelo lishmah.
Look, I can see one of the today’s heads of schools in Israel writing what you wrote. But I think this is not what Netziv wrote and your understanding is a little off historically. This is not how others understood Netziv: he is against cooperating of the anti-religious (Bundists, Communists, maybe anti-religious Zionists), aso Reform “culturalists” – these are those who claim that they are for the Torah but “deny Talmud” and mesorah in general. At the same time, he is for cooperation with those who are observant, what they call “traditional” in Israel, and surely other observant groups. Where on earth you found that “religious Zionists” deny Talmud, I don’t know. It seems at worst, there is a disagreement about one agadta about 3 shevuous. So, you are doing opposite of what Netziv is suggesting – you are looking for a machlokes and then try to make as much fire from this little machlokes.
As I mentioned on WZO, even authors of Kol Koreh admit that there are Talmidei Chachamim with opposite view. And you refuse to show respect to those who your leaders recognize as T’Ch?! Imagine you are a antiZ and also a student of R Feinstein and you come and see him talking to his cousin R Soloveitchik – are you going to show respect to one and not another? If they are having a halachik discussion – would you listen to one of them and close your ears not to hear the other? I am really curious.
Look at writings by R Sacks. He tends to make historical and philosophical connections that can help expand conversation to bigger topics and show kids how Hagada relates to our lives.
Damoshe, thanks for this. Simcha, what they say is relevant – there are 3 types of slavery – to non-Jews, to Jews, and to yourself. Some people enslave themselves to their pre-fixed ideas and do not respond even to information that comes from the sources they trust.
Kuvult, great idea. Sounds like your construction company pays well.
from Rosh Yeshiva from Mir:
To obtain this “learning Torah is his profession” exemption (Toraso Umanuso), a statement attesting to that fact needed to be signed by the Rosh Yeshiva of each Yeshiva institution. Rav Laizer Yudel, with tears in his eyes, would tell each student that asked for his signature on the statement that “Torah is his profession” the following: “I have never told a falsehood in my life. I am signing that your profession is to study Torah. Please learn diligently and commit yourself to it, so that I am not a liar.”Some jew > I hope you learn
I am patiently waiting for your help that will come as your scholarly comments to the works of r Soloveitchik that I referred you to. Until then, I will have to follow the mesorah from him.
Some jew, authors of kol koreh clearly disagree with your position, because they acknowledge that there are talmidei chachamim on the other side of the issue.
You are raising an interesting question about money. I think you are right that this is one of the possible motivations. Another one is to prevent reform influence, but this could be exaggerated to give cover to $$$ argument. Still, there are others who want to vote because they want to be part of am Yisrael activities in EY. I know you don’t believe in this, but many others do.
DaMoshe, R Landau clearly disagrees with you.
Trying to block everything negative doesn’t work if your kids need that. Better to have a whitelist of Torah and educational sites, and block everything else.
I looked up local tag materials, and they are not just offering filters. They also talk about multitasking and brain reactions to notifications, suggesting blocking out time periods to concentrate on important things. Do they write differently in other places ? It could be, of course.
Netziv Meishiv Davar 1:44
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1096&st=&pgnum=52&hilite=
https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_Meshiv_Davar%2C_Volume_I.44?lang=bihere are some discussions about this work:
hate was not limited to those who “wronged” a person. Rather, it extended to those who served Hashem differently. If one would see a halachic leniency, he would brand it heresy, and distance himself from that person. He would then mistakenly justify attacking that person, even to the point of murder. The Netziv laments that such internal hatred within the observant community existed in his time (the late nineteenth century) as well. Hating someone who “wronged” us is necessarily limited. With how many people can we fight over money or honor? But if we hate those who differ with us on matters of halacha or hashkafa, the sinas chinam is unlimited.
——
[A] review of Neziv’s writing reveals his advocacy of contemporary religious coercion, his description of the non-Orthodox Jew as theologically worse than an idolator, his instructions to separate from Sabbath violators in the religious and social spheres, and a justification for slandering those Jews who “deny the Torah of Moses.”
——
related sources:
Sifrei Naso 42: Great is peace, for even if Israel worships idols, if they live in peace, the Holy One, as it were, says that the Accuser (‘Satan’) cannot touch them, as it is stated (Hosea 4:17) “Ephraim has bound himself to idols—leave him alone.”
Kalla Rabbati (Chapter 5): “As long as they are joined together, even to worship their idols, leave them alone.”right, so how do you react to a possibility that R Chaim was giving psak based on people around him giving him incomplete information? Presumably, this is not the only case. So, Rav’s psak is reliable when he is talking about Torah of which he is a master, but not about other little stuff where he can be mislead? This is a throwback to the heilike times when Litvishe Rabonim were only responsible for teaching Torah, not for voting!
To be more precise, we did have time periods when Rabbis were making social rulings – and times when they did not feel like that. For example, Sanhedrin 90+ describes a simpleton who (after asking Rabbis for permission) successfully wins cases against kenaanim, mitzrim and yishmaelim in Alexander’s court regarding EY. Rabbis did not jump at the opportunity to go to the court themselves. Maybe he was a Zionists using convincing real life arguments about Jewish “nation” (making kenaanim salves; deserving payment for work from mitzrim, etc) that the Rabbis were not willing to make …
PS R Gershon Kamenetsky makes a similar claim about R Eliashev – at some point, he and the Rav agreed that Rav is not issuing a ban and asking someone to review it, while R GK pauses dissemination (he says, luckily the printer already sold out the first edition and did not lose anything). Then, suddenly, while R GK was in US for medical treatment, Rav issued a ban (or somewhere posted/published it in his name, I think). When R GK immediately came back to EY and asked the Rav in person why the ban was issued despite the agreement. Rav said – but you continued selling the book. When told “not”, he said – sorry, I was told you did, what can I do, I am not a Navi (sic!) (and, if I understand correctly), Rav did not rescind the ban at that point also, for some reason. If someone knows/remembers more details about this fascinating episode, please correct me. So, this story seems to support R Landau’s position that R Chaim could have been misled.
So, Rav Landau explains why previous Rabonim (R Chaim?) permitted voting: they were not presented with the right information and they were too engrossed in their learning.
That is, he confirms that R Chaim actually permitted voting, the video is not a forgery and not a rumor. I wonder whether his assumption that previous Daas Torah can be dismissed because they did not get the right info and they were not paying attention can be applied to other Rabbis, including R Landau himself? Could someone ask him (without distorting the question)?
somejew, thousands of Yidden went to ask R Chaim questions. Would you say that he did not make sure that his answers are understood?
When I ask a rav, he is not talking into his sleeve, he is making sure that the other person understands his answer. See Pirkei Avot about teachers who mislead. So, here is an answer from R Chaim and people claim that his answer is not clear, or that he was mislead. This goes against everything everyone agrees about R Chaim.> Zuken Mamre
This is ridiculous – R Chaim paskened against somejew, and now this … where is your kavod chachamim. Note that the kol koreh admits that there are other talmidei chachamim that think otherwise. So, you dare to also dismiss the authors of the kol koreh.GH > how certain little people think that the “isms” are more powerful than Torah!
Isms _are_ powerful and were extremely pwerful in 19th-20th centuries, and affected a lot of Jews. First, secular Z is the best of all isms at least judging by the outcome to the participants – their grandchildren live in Israel and speak ivrit. Grandchildren of other isms were not born, go to church, or ran communist departments in Russia.
Second, whose fault is it? We habitually blame reform, commies, even Moses Mendelssohn… but really, did all these Jews have adequate support from their Jewish communities to stay Jewish in the face of so many opportunities? R Kotler was protected by his rosh yeshiva who intercepted letters from his communist sister who wanted him to go study math. On the other hand, R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman wonder how many of their friends from a Litvish shtetl did not become Talmidei Chachamim because of an insensitive rebbe in 2nd grade. … How many other Yidden had insensitive rebbes or rabbis who could not argue against all isms?
R Salanter at the end of 19th century despairs of ongoing downfall of Litvishe Jews and goes to Paris to work with people who “are already at the bottom” . Chofetz Chaim laments about assimilation in 1920s of Poland but he is not offering adequate solutions.
Bais Yaakov was started at that time, and R Soloveitchik started teaching secularly-educated Jews at that time – but what about previous generation?
So, we can’t solely blame outsiders for so many Jews going after isms. Observant Jewry did not provide them with an attractive alternative.HaKatan > For example, Syrian Jews have a rather different culture (and language) than do Hungarian Jews, for example. And the land (until Mashiach comes) is no different than Matza on Pesach. As even Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik noted, “EY is one mitzva among the mitzvos”.
You are right, but this does not exclude that we are also one nation with multitude of Jews who are to some, or large, degree assimilated. This is especially seen at the time of persecution, whether Shoah, USSR, or other times. R Schach says that Hashem had to introduce Arab hatred towards early non-R Zionists – because otherwise, they would have enrolled in universities of Beirut and Cairo and intermarried … from this, we see that R Schach definitely considered these Zs part of the nation that Hashem is protecting. As to R Soloveitchik, he also talks about these nonR Jews, including in the time of megillah coming back during times of persecution.
HaKatan > In fact, much of Europe was assimilated by then (thanks to Zionism and other -isms).
I don’t think non-R Z were the significant source of assimilation. They mostly recruited among people who were already assimilated. And followers of Z ended up way better than followers of the alternative isms – communists, bundists, etc. Many former ended up in Israel and their grandchildren are Jewish and may be religious, and the latter were either assimilated or killed, or ended up behind iron curtain.
>> I am not well versed in these fancy English phrases and philosophical debate kind of terms that you use.
Menachem> Chaim, he assumed you could just look them up online.without internet?! catch-22 …
for full disclosure, I do have an encyclopedia and I fought a battle to make kids interested in using it. They are winning with the score 6:1 – shabbos is the only day they ever looked it up.
so those who actually looked at the platform – could you list things you agree with, and things you disagree with? this platform is helpful by defining a lowest common denominator that multiple groups signed to and making into into bullet points for us to analyze. What’s your score?
non political> I would like to understand on what grounds joining the WZO is permitted.
to answer this, we need to understand your objections to their platform.ZSK, do any yeshivos in America use quantitative marks? tests? class rank?
I recently found that R Soloveitchik was also bothered by this already in the 50s. He writes – how is that I am giving the same semicha to a talented T’Ch and to a B- student. Did YU or anyone else figured out semicha cum laude?
I am very puzzled by the enigma of whether R Chaim allowed WZO voting. I did not watch the video, but apparently the question was repeated to him in Hebrew omitting the word “world” (olami) and he responded with one word.
What I am puzzled about is – so many people had this question. Was it just one who asked and got it on video? Others did not care about R’ Chaim’s opinion or presumed they know his position? R Chaim answered the question without fully understanding it? People did not understand his answer as yes or no, and did not ask again? If you could not figure out his answer in this case, how about 1000 of other times when R Chaim replied yes or no?
If an esteemed Rav holds that R Chaim’s answer is misinterpreted or is unclear, then what does it mean about all people who went to R Chaim with their questions? Were they all dupes? Then, why esteemed Rav did not warn people not to go to R Chaim after he reached certain age? Or did he?
>> “Frum Jews are not supposed to live like the Amish. Not having devices is living like Amish.”
> Fallacy of the converse.We all get caught up in a moment – and it is _very_ reasonable to be conservative when major changes happen. But look back 100-200 years – are there many technological/social changes that Jews are not using? We ride trains (Chofetz Chaim suggests including trains into our thanks to Hashem), read printed books (do you know what was mostly printed early on after the Bible? right, pornography); we use phones, read papers, drive cars, fly airplanes, etc, etc. OK, we watch TV less than an average goy. So, eventually we will learn how to use smartphones safely. Some might have already figured it out.
toonapish, thanks for the list.
I am not really bothered by this list. Are you bothered by “unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael”, etc?Some of that is mushy, indeed, and it is not clear what it stands for.
As to your concern about what is _not_ mentioned, this platform is to unity all Jews, and we do know that there are non-religious Jews, right? Are we not allowed to join them in discussing politics and security of millions of Jews in Israel?
Note, btw, that the platform _does_ mention Torah – about as much as your wedding declaration “al dat Moshe veIsrael”. Platform includes:
– by furthering Jewish … education, fostering spiritual and cultural values [das Yisroel]
– Strengthening Israel as a Jewish … state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a
unique moral and spiritual character [mussar] , marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people [ahavas Yisroel],
rooted in the vision of the prophets [including Moshe]
striving for peace [shalom] and contributing to the betterment of the world [tikkun olam, if you will]if this list is not enough, you should not get married under that vague declaration either.
HaKatan, this is a good exposition of what secular Zionism stands for in terms of “nationalism”. Indeed. First, you obviously understand that RZ do not hold such views. Seems that your problem with RZ is that they are willing to collaborate in politics with those secular Zionists. How is this tactical disagreement even important in the Torah sense? We have Jews voting for D- and for R- in USA, hoping that corresponding policies will be “good for the Jews”. We all daven together despite that. So, some religious Jews in Israel are trying to improve religious and economic life of Jews in Israel by participating in Knesset and joining in some subcommittees with members of Labour or something. They still eat kosher and keep shabbos. Why are you bothered by what they do? They may be right or they may be mistaken and their work may be futile, why are you wasting your energy on denouncing them instead of learning some Torah or some mussar about how to talk nicely to other Yidden?
I think the just published kol koreh firmly resolves the issue- in favor of ambiguity. Before listing their opinion, esteemed authors say: we don’t want to impugn the Torah of talmidei chachamim that permitted.So, you should not also
somejew > what is this “zionist shita in Torah”?
I don’t know what is a “zionist shita” and I don’t know what is “anti-zionist shitah”. Are you talking about gemorah supporting Ben Gurion’s views? The issues involves probably hundreds of specific questions, and many can be, and were, addressed from different perspectives.
For example, “can you have a zionist flag in shul” is a specific question, and I understand it. It seems that R Moshe answered (in early years) that it should not but it is not worth fighting about. Just from this question, you can see that it is possible to ask specific questions, there is nothing to be ashamed of, or disgusted by, (both ways – I can see people being outraged at bringing the flag, and people outraged at removing the flag). So, maybe we should discuss specific questions that bother you based on your reading of Satmar Rebbe.
somejewiknow > There is wide space between “go learn and figure it out on your own” and “you expect a one-page proof?”.
Here a couple of small books by/based on Rav Soloveitchik
The Return to Zion. Addresses on Religious Zionism and American Orthodoxy, 2021 – in Yiddish or English
Community, Covenant And Commitment: Selected Letters And Communications, 2021