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simcha613> I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls.
right. and my sources @ Stern tell me that only a small number of girls attend purely “gemora” classes and many of them are politically motivated to do that. At the same time, “regular” Judaic classes bring Gemorah or Rambam related to the topic of study.
NP > 2) Such initiatives will surely be highjacked by people with a Feminist agenda.
exactly, see above.NP > After all, Beis Yaacov was also unprecedented. However, like Beis Yaacov, such an innovation should have broad support from Gedolei Yisroel to be considered legitimate.
BY also had opposition among gedolim of the time. Maybe the difference seems to be that BY is a mass movement, and Gemora learning is not (or at least should not be). So, it affects a certain segment of women, so some Rabbis have these issues and others – avoid.
Also, the main innovation of BY was not educating of girls – that was already done by German Jews, but somehow making it acceptable to the charedi communities. Maybe same has to happen with Gemora learning.
ujm> By time he found out they had already fallen in love
maybe you have better sources. My understanding is that R Feinstein offered a shidduch to R Tendler senior without either of them being fully aware.
and, again, you are putting assumptions on the gadol hador that he did not propose an appropriate shidduch for his daughter.somejew sarcasm notwithstanding, there is contradiction of a Rav giving a public plsak for the community and then a different psak for individuals.
I was told personally by someone whose son was in a very anti-college yeshiva in Yerushalaim. When his son asked the Rav privately, the rav did not object to this lamdan to go to college. Same is reported by R Lau – he was in R Auerbach yeshiva where there were no limudei chol, but upon insistence of R Lau’s uncle, R Auerbach allowed R Lau to study on his own in preparation for bagrut and even chastised him for lack of enthusiasm in learning sciences.
HaKatan > Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else.
I have an idea for you to demonstrate your principles. Iron Dome’s munitions are expensive – and Arrow (against larger missiles) are even more expensive.
So, the way system works – it evaluates where the missile is flying and if that area is empty, then no interceptors are sent out. So, you can simply make an agreement with the Tzahal that your areas should be considered a midbar (as Chazon Ish said) and not requiring protection by Iron Dome. You can post signs on the streets – under divine protection, no iron dome.> and let them work like in every normal country
work a good start, I am glad we are coming to a common point. But draft is also a normal thing. US had draft after to the 1970s, and Jews were drafted, although college students had deferral. I don’t know whether BMG qualified. Did it? Is Tzahal kashrus below the standard of US Army?
ujm > He did not suggest him at all to his daughter. His daughter met him in the New York Public Library and from there it just went from there. Rav Moshe accepted it because by time he knew about it, it was too late.
I looked into this interesting story and posted here several years ago. I don’t recall whether it was NYPL or Brooklyn College library – where both of them were studying chemistry and that is what Ms. Feinstein used as a pre-text. According to my reconstruction of the events, Ms. Feinstein then subtly planted the idea into her father’s head, and R Feinstein suggested the shidduch to his future shver – with whom they were sitting together on the beis din. The father then asked the son and was shocked to hear that the decision was already made.
You still need to explain how is that R Moshe got into this situation. He was a Rosh Yeshiva – he could not find the right shidduch among his best students? Laughable. His two sons became huge T’Ch, there is very little statistical chance that the daughter turned out differently in such an illustrious family.
Just to help you out of this pickle: you can argue that this is an example of a daughter learning Gemorah (secretly, hiding behind her brothers) leading her to shtus?!
GadolHadofi, thanks for an interesting article. There is a link at the bottom of the article that also describes views of R Zevin and R Frank. Of course, all of these need to be balanced to the anti-state views that are alluded in the articles but not described in detail.
But I think sincere confusion comes from the fact that for some posters, those quotes are totally unfamiliar. Their sincere reaction is to deny that these quoutes exist because – unfortunately – the seforim they read did not contain them. I am not sure whether they’ll try to verify those or just deny.
NP > The objection is to a program of formal instruction on a community level. I think it’s obvious that a girl or woman who pursues learning would need competent instruction.
I agree with the general direction you are taking. these terms are not precise. We understand that Beruriah was probably the only lady in most classes just because this was rare. Nowadays, even if this were as rare, all Beruriahs from all over the world can get on a plane and get together in a college or seminary. They can also get on zoom.
So, I would clarify ” formal instruction on a community level” as an obligatory/expected program of learning at high school/college level. See: seminary. Whether they teach gemora that leads to shtus or just shtus directly, they became as obligatory as a bas mitzvah, and you can see that it often works out in a funny way.
That said, I don’t see an objection from these halachik sources to girls/ladies who have capacity and interest – to pursue this learning in any form _they_ choose. And, furthermore, I would prefer them learning “gemorah” in the original meaning of Rambam (and probably amoraim themselves): analysis of mitzvos, not necessarily all pilpul on a daf.
coffee> I never said you were a TALMID chachacham, i said you are a CHACHAM which anyone can be (חכמה בגוים תאמין) the saying חכם עינו בראשו doesn’t only apply to Torah
your definition of the chacham seems OK, but your definition of the “talmid” seems off. T’Ch is a lower madregah and many true T’Chim call themselves mostly T’Ch as if they did not finish learning.
I don’t recall the source, but I think there is an explicit comparison – T’Ch can answer shailohs on the masechet he is currently learning, while Ch’ can answer anywhere in the Torah.
Maybe you are confused because, as you quote, chacham often refers to general knowledge and sciences, while t’Ch often is referred with ability to answer shailohs and also proper behavior (not walking on your own at night, dressing up properly). Maybe T’Ch starts with memorizing one mashechet at a time (see above), while Chacham has thinking capabilities that include as well general knowledge.
Anyway, I modestly claimed only naviyut, so none of these categories apply to me. And the reason I did it – to divert this ugly stream of mutual accusations … BTW, after I examined myself before I modestly concluded that I am not a T’Ch, I found I have something in common with Alter Rebbe!
As he said – he was choosing between going to Vilna Gaon and Maggid of Mezirich: I knew something about learning torah but I knew NOTHING about davening. So, I am 50% there like alter Rebbe! Of course, after Alter Rebbe learned something about davening, he tried to see Gaon – but he did not have a prayer …yankel berel, we went a long way from complaining about prosecutions in our history – murders, limiting employment, unfair taxation – to complaining about the government requiring the community to perform at least some of their civil duty – work and defend against the enemies.
I understand the ideal of wanting to have a community that is all about Torah learning, but you have to be realistic, and “realistic” means behaving according to halachik norms in the situation Hashem put us. Say, you were to live in China – would you demand Chinese government to provide you with a stipend and a police force? Then, why you are demanding the same from Jews, whom you do not respect and who are not always willing to support you?
This is just no ehrlich. How do you call a person who forcibly extract money from another? Furthermore, I do not even understand the motivation – Hashem gives us mitzvos, why would I want to risk my olam haboh by refusing to defend, to fulfil my ketubah and by creating this terrible strife in a Jewish country. Maybe try to meet your requirements at least part of the way and see how it feels.I think R Issr Zalman was even a member of some underground organization while in the yeshiva (Mir?)
HaKatan, I think we can understand that PR believed that all the construction done by Zionists will eventually be for the good. So, you can use his permission to be equally accommodating.
> who have destroyed generations of Jews and working even harder than in the past to destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y.
I asked you before and did not an answer:
– what is your source that Zs destroyed anyone? Non-religious Jews in Europe became non-religious Zs and were saved from Nazis and Commies.
– who is destroying your olam? your olam is asking for money and for being exempt from serving in the army like anyone else. There are no commies running around EY trying to close yeshivos like in communist russia.> and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted
And your explanation for R Moshe’s granddaughter learning gemora is … She was raised by R Moshe’s daughter and his SIL whom he personally suggested to his daughter ….> If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business.
Good, so you permit something. Now, we simply need to define what is “on their own”. Beruriah attended classes by 300 teachers (in one day) as mentioned by Rabbi, I think. In my view and probably in yours, this qualifies as women learning on their own rather than father teaching her. So, the same in our times – I agree with you that having rigid programs where girls have to learn gemorah as part of graduation requirement either for high school or Jewish college is not appropriate, but giving them an opportunity to do so on their own decision is fine.
> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).
Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.coffee, thanks, but I am still reaching for the navi. There are a lot of features of tlamid chacham mentioned in the gemora that I view as a criteria – such as if you seem him posting an aveirah in the evening, you don’t have to remind them in the morning as he surely did teshuva. And, in Avodah Zara, you can presume to buy items that require trust from their family, as the chacham presumably taught his wife and househoild. I am not holding by these madregas yet! I did achieve the appropriate level of humility, though, so I stop here.
Chazit > There was always a core group sitting in learning and not heading to battle
That’s a good argument, not ignoring Moshe’s words! Now the question is – can one self-select himself as a shevet Levi? Maybe let’s not discuss shevet Levi of those times, but look at more appropriate models: say, Zevulun-Issahar, when one learns and one works and they share schar. It is a contract, signed by both parties.
Why not pair someone who learns with someone who goes to the army, where they both appreciate the value of learning? I presume DL community will be able to do that within their own families. Presuming you are a chareidi – could you find a soldier who will be willing to join you in this partnership? Maybe you can increase your ties – you can help deliver supplies ot the army and share some of your learning when you meet.
duvid > biggest enemy today is the Israeli Supreme Court
you are illustrating what was happening, say, in 1920s Poland – where Jews (and Poles also) were involved in fighting between different subgroups – while ignoring two evil superpowers on their borders.
As to the army run by secular politicians – you probably live in a democratic country where majority makes the rules, whether it is Israel or US. Alternatives to democracies exist, if you are willing to live in Iran/China/Russia/Saudi Arabia. If not, you need to follow halocha and follow the rules of the country. It is normal for every country to have an army to defend against the enemies. And it is up to you to vote the right politicians, convince other people in the country to vote same way as you do be seeing how righteous you are, and by making the army more religious, including the leaders.
reb mutche, this joke is old – before Litvakim encountered modern Arabs, unless this joke is from the time of the Tannaim.
.doe> The Tribes of Gad and Reuben both fought in the battles to conquer the land and even stayed an extra 7 years,
Exactly, whether their original statement was clumsy and they planned to go fight or whether they accepted tochacha from Moshe, they joined the rest of AM Israel, while keeping their pastures. So, it is not late for those sitting out now to join tzahal and then return to their studies.
Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
Reb mutche, you got the joke: for a litvak, it is enough to separate the brain.
On thicker ties: yes. Mine is thin and sharp.
> The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists
Lozada zechus, someone broke into the account and impersonated the poster.
Just visiting is in the right place. The shailoh is not about gartels, but about low self esteem that someone from one tradition wants to pickup a different tradition because, presumably, it look frummer.
Just visiting suggests other ways to enhance your religiosity. To my taste, this list is a little self centered, especially schlepping your own siddur and shtender. I prefer to use same shul siddur, especially old worn ones that people from previous generation used. You can also buy some shtenders for the shul if it needs them. Also try to attend a shul that is struggling with getting a minyan and come on days where problem is the biggest. Also, path legally near the shul and leave space for pedestrians to walk buy, do not stand in hot shul blocking cols air.
I am a Navi because I can predict how this discussion will end: everyone will stand firm at their original opinion.
Biggest death rates in ancient times were due to child mortality and maybe communicative diseases and hunger aftet that. Gemora Taanis suggests start davening when a pandemic of people or animals, even pigs, happens in areas connected to your city by trade routes.
And when pandemic reaches your city, then run away or go into lock down.
And due to child and hunger mortality, probably wealthy adults were stronger and healthier than some now.
As to overall effect, just notice billions of people on the planet with decreased birth rates and figure it out.
Garters separate the head from the lower part of the body, and some have thicker heads thsn others …. anyway, a tie fulfills the minimum requirement.
A bigger question is – if you have zechus to belong to a menorah focused on intellectual achievements – why do you suddenly care about adding a string around your waist? You don’t feel frum enough because someone else doing something you don’t? Maybe look up some minhagim of say Rav Salanter or Alter from Slobodka, I am sure you’ll find some middos you can still work on. But maybe a belt is an easier path to feeling frum.
none > why don’t you just allow men and woman meet naturally
There should be a balance somewhere. When the world shows great progress, say in building cars or medicine, we should pay attention. But there are no great advances in marriages, so why copy?
> The Agudah’s political/laymen departments do not always accurately reflect the beliefs and attitudes of the Gedolim on the Moetzes.
How could that be? you are saying a gadol will work for/with an organization that espouses different views? What next, teaching at YU?!
on holiday? maybe he was drafted or volunteered? Most likely, he is at the demonstrations.
There is a teshuva by R Ovadia Yosef that allows invalidating marriages in Israel done outside of Rabbanut on the logic that Rabbanut declared that all marriages in medinat Israel are supposed to be under their rules, and whoever does it outside is not following “dat moshe veisrael”. That means that R Ovadia halachically validates the political arrangement and also recognizes the border of the Medinah. That is, if one were to marry in Suria, presumably this will be ok.
Common, is he twisting the words? Most of the quotes I bothered reading sound reasonable. He might need to ask mechilah from people who need to look at screens and screens of repeated quotes in a strange format.
Toras Moshe, is it clear from the context what period Chazon Ish is mentioning or was it a figure of speech?
Taking it seriously – such a woman would be also executed by greeks and romans, because that woman would be presumably trying to sneak into some men-only symposia or sport events. So, it is unfair to compare something that is common in our times and was uncommon at those times. Next, you’ll tell me that Rambam will be aghast seeing people marrying and learning before getting a job.
Here is an example: IIRC, there was a takonah to allow tefilin in the bathroom after an incident where (supposedly?) a student left tefillin outside and some lady picked it up and then came to the yeshiva and asked – who forgot this in my house? And the student jumped off the roof … I don’t know how gemorah knows that accusation was wrong, and I don’t know whether this lady was wearing pants, but her occupation seems clear. Still, she was allowed to come in the yeshiva and seemingly was not arrested there.
Menachem > Ever heard of Twitter? Lol
I don’t understand this attitude. It is assimilation, and I don’t care how much fur is on your hat. How can one dare to deviate from the integrity of our tradition? Just because the world is talking like that? Do you know what was popular during Mishna times? read some of the popular greek literature at the time – some of it will not be allowed on internet ourdays… Did Tannaim use their style?
The most frequent offense against Jewish discussion seems to be the “Free speech” allowance for using any arguments you can to convince the other side. In that theory, free speech enables all information to come to the table and leads to better decisions overall. There is certainly value to that where it belongs – politics, science, but our tradition is pretty clear about it: Beis Hillel eventually won the argument because they were quoting both sides and quoting Beis Shammai’s opinion first. Anyone who comes to quote “all rabbis say X” and quoting only some of them is in obvious violation.
coffee > fed their kids and that made their kids entitled
I agree, and many others. Someone reported one of the gedolim talking in Boro Park saying “what is a luxury for you – is a necessity for the kids”.
none2 > I don’t think you’ll hear them arguing
Be gentle here, most of them (in my experience) do not even know why their places of worship are called “temples”.
> Jewish courts enforced
yes, there is a case in gemorah when someone takes off red scarf from a lady and she turns out to be persian, so the rav gets fined by persian court but says it was worth the money.
But not always. Sanhedrin moved out of lishkat hagazit when there were too many murders. I imagine, head coverings were not up to your standards also when murders were popular.
There is also a question whether courts would enforce all midrabanans.
ExCTL, this makes sense. Other Ds, I understand. MD/PhD is also a thing for doing medical research.
BTW, the joke “is this reservation for a PhD or for a _real_ doctor” that was hanging around the department where I was doing it is incorrect:
original doktors were PhDs, medical doctors were stam barbers who did not pretend to do it scientifically.somejew > Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region,
How is this reasonable? Middle East is full of fighting between different groups. They are killing their own brothers who happened to believe in a different version of the same religion. And if you truly belief that this is all Zionist fault, then you should simply put your group together and go talk to any of the tribes in the surrounding area and arrange to move into their territory. I am sure, at least one of those groups will be able to understand and honor your position. Let us know your new zip code!
ExCTL, you had me at the second doctorate! I can’t imagine going for the 2nd …
Maybe it is a yakkish thing – Herr Dr Dr …a PhD in USA is really a sign that you are able to do research in general, not just on the narrow topic of your thesis?
then what does the second one mean!? That the first one was not good enough?!I would do Latin to read Roman history in the original. Even reading english translations show things that we do not have in popular culture. for example, I thought that Roman republic ended when empire came. Not in the eyes of Romans – they simply considered it a republic with an emperor … Gemorah seems to be of the same opinion. Avoda Zara mentions that Roman heads of state (on the example of Antoninos) is not hereditary like in other countries. Antoninos asked R Yehuda – I can ask Senate for one favor – should I ask them to make my son emperor or should I ask to lower taxes for Jews? Answer: ask them for the son, and let the son ask for the Jews …
Szatmár was seemingly first called for some Zotmar, presumably some Hun idol worshipper, so he was no saint.
ExCTL, your knowledge of Latin notwithstanding, “yeshiva alumnus” makes as much sense as “Yale lamdan”, at least until yeshivos put Latin into their curricula.
ZSK, I would not go that far about “definitely” and “bad behavior”. I am sure there are some seminaries and girls that behave and fit each other. Some parents have easier access to such than others … In this case, all I am saying – if there is no good seminary plan, do not get that upset. And, yes, in my family also, Mrs AAQ is more negative on seminaries than I. Knowledge is grief 🙂
But based on feedback from friends of our daughters, they are mostly happy post-sem, but at the same time, I was not able to draw from them any unique Torah or middos that they acquired. They got some confidence and some teacher they feel comfortable calling regarding hashkofas, but this seems mostly because they did not discuss life seriously in high school and home.
with passing of time, I see the opposite in America – we have several generations of Yidden who are raised in peaceful environment (B’H). They have very remote connection to any Jewish idea of suffering and challenges. They feel entitled to all the benefits of free society while not feeling any obligations because they learned that they are following emes.
while correlation does not imply causation, it is usually a necessary condition. so, outside of ridiculous examples, you start by noticing correlation, and then you explore a possibility of causation. And a possibility that Hashem is sending you a message here.
So, don’t ignore correlations. Say, your kid is upset or saying something inappropriate after a class X or after seeing a friend Y, worth exploring what that teacher or friend are saying. In terms of effect of others, there was a great experiment during covid (excluding those who did not believe in it) – some of the behaviors and opinions of the kids that we thought were their personal quirk turned out to change when outside of their social environment.