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> that you felt were “too Jewish” or “too right-wing”
This is a self-delusion that
– a group of people who do not go to college and dress in Polish 18th century levush are “too Jewish”.
– group of people advocating for governments subsidizing their communities and voting for left-wing politicians when they do that – are “too right wing”NP, right. We agree on the iska v umanut principle, there is simply a question how much of that is in each profession.
let’s define pratim of each:1) umanut – main thing about umanut is added value for your skills that the customer can see and value accordingly. Sometimes, it is not always seen. If a mechanic keeps finding “extra problems” – many customers will not catch to that. They might over time – if you live in a stable community, your honesty will be known and you’ll be rich honestly. But if you are positioned near a highway – you will be losing to competition that falsely advertises low prices and free oil change.
2) different businesses have different rate of fraud.
> , hiring “immigrants” is not unique to the skilled trades. Corporations import grey market cheap labor all the time.
agreed. Working for large corporation in such businesses is the same as being in such business, subject to your responsibilities. Being independent as much as possible is ideal.> The pressure in a professional firm to “accommodate” large clients can be intense. Same with pressure on doctors to perform procedures.
Indeed. I am just saying that as a klal – if you have a lot of value for your skills, it is just easier to reject going into fraud.
The first question to ask for any job/profession: is it possible to earn a living honestly? here is how much I charge per hour and here is how much my honest expenses will be. Can I live with the difference?
none2> that’s delusional cuz that’s the parents job
When R Kotler opened his yeshiva, he had to convince parents to send kids to the yeshiva instead of college – and parents were able to pay. A couple of generations later, parents are unable to support next generation. The idea of yeshivos being responsible for the graduates is not mine. This is being discussed as a solution for college problem, where third parties/government are lending money with no controls: let colleges provide loans to students and then recover based on their earnings. I think, this is way more applicable to yeshivos, especially those that raised several generations of students. If they were confronted with the responsibility for future of their students, rabbonim will have more information about what they need to learn.
> That “baal teshuva” movement you mentioned was only needed because the Zionists shmaded almost all the Jews there to begin with!
I think this explains some of your deep feelings about this topic – and it is based on a false premise. Most European Jews who arrived to EY in 1920-50s were not religious and and many were anti-religious to begin with. They were not made anti-religious by Zionists, but rather by attractive theories of communism/bundism/cultural movements in Eastern Europe before that – and thanks to inability of rabbis to stop that movement. As frustrated R Salanter said at some point – I can have a discussion with a French professor who is already totally non-religious, but not with Lithuanian Jews who are going downhill. There are occasional episodes – like Tehran orphans who were saved from Russia in 1940s by Polish government in exile, or Teimanim, but this was not the case for majority. All these people were saved physically by choosing Zionism instead of Bundism and leaving Europe; and from gehinom by choosing to organize harmless kibutzim instead of soviet labor camps.
besalel > [muslim hadith] never return to the land of israel ever again.
As I understand, muslims also have a problem with losing territory that once was muslim. While the other major religion is concerned about saving souls, Muslims are looking to acquire countries where they establish the law. So, losing countries is a setback. Two such major countries are: Israeli and Spain.
none2> low-fat diets may be associated with increased levels of depression
of course, but correlation is not causation – overweight leads to under-date to depression to diet.
Katan> the preference is to run away, not to fight.
This is exactly what Zionists did. So many Jews stayed in Europe fighting for “better future” against the Czar and everyone else – and did not survive. Zionists wisely escaped the continent on fire and enables survival of millions of Yidden. To what degree they did it with ruach hakodesh, or with wrong intentions that Hashem turned around to good – we can argue about. The “better” run away options were to run to America (that Rabbis warned against) or Uganda that was voted down.
fake > what relevance is there to whether the corporation is Jewish?
of course, it does. We have commandments and we are also enabling kiddush/hillul Hashem by our actions. Now, if you are a CEO of a public corporation, then you have a contract with the shareholder to maximize their value. So, if you want to be meshurat hadin, you would need agreement of the Board.
There was, I think, a textile factory in the 1990s with a frum owner that paid his workers for many months after his factory burnt and also rebuilt the factory – that generated a lot of kiddush Hashem with the press. All Jews in business are observed by others, sometimes with ayn tov, sometimes rah.
NP> R’ Moshe holds that Today that we have Kollelim, learning in Kollel is a profession.
Well, not “today”, but 2-3 generations back.
1) does R Moshe approve of taking government funds that are allocated for people who are not able to work?
2) what would R Moshe say about situation after leaving kollel, when the person is not able to find a comfortable job, as recommended at the end of Kiddushin?
This problem actually has a solution: yeshiva should be responsible for the well-being of the graduates. If the student later on has job (and because of that) shidduch or marital problems, then yeshiva pays from their direct budget expenses for unemployment; for retraining; for marital counseling; for tuition and apartments for children. As Alter from Navordok said when someone suggested that he will donate a share of his olam haba to someone ilvolved in public mitzvos – how about donating some of your share in olam haze?NP, on Kiddushin – Gemorah gives us ideas here, not necessarily final answers that may depend on social conditions. You can see it in the gemora itself. For example, they learned and then married in Israel and opposite in Bavel – because they did not dorm in Israel.
So, when there is an opportunity to have reliable businesses without umanut – gezunte heig. This was during years of R Moshe, where one could have run a local store in Brooklyn and have an honest living. If you see now yeshiva graduates trying to outsell each other on Amazon selling same smartphones, then it is an issue if metziyt: is this working or not?
Same goes for the siyum of Kiddushin: R Nehorai dramatic statement is there for the siyum, but it follows multiple Rabbis going into details of what is a good profession. Some notice that he says “to my son”. As most people at that time went into professions, obviously, the other opinions were important.
And, again – it is matter of facts: if R Nehorai’s son would have parnosa or middos problems, he would surely change his approach. As R Aha Yaakov does in the original sugya: where he confirms that his son is learning worse than him, so he lives the kid to work in the field and goes to learn himself.
NP,
if looking at big picture, I think we live in unprecedented times for last 300 years, and we did not yet learn how to live with the society that changed so much. We know how many opinions existed at previous crises – Bavel, destruction of 2nd BM, encounters with Greeks, Romans, Christianity and Islam …Looking at last 80 years: we have chareidi yesshiva or chasidic, RZ, “modern O”, Chabad approaches, each having their own achievements and downsides. We need to look honestly at that. Charedi approach achieved tremendous successes in creating and keeping large communities from remnants of what existed in Eastern Europe. I very much understand R Kotler’s approach confronted with American Jews who were so excited with material success that their children would join “American dream” with many of those assimilating. On the other hand, I see several issues that charedi approach does not address:
1) there are multitudes of Jews outside of their area of influence. They are not evil just because they are not wearing black hats. They are same type of Jews that we had in other communities over centuries. The difference is that they now can exist outside of Jewish communities. It is a big challenge of modernity. They need to be cared of. Chabad does a lot here. This was immediate goal of R Soloveitchik in 1930s – create serious observant Rabbis who can run shuls for these people (many of whom lived in small towns at the time).
2) how do we address modernity in a long term? do we pretend it did not happen and live like before? do we address those issues? On one hand, I find R Soloveitchik compelling when he writes (in 1950s): if we claim to have Truth from Hashem, then we should be addressing the world with our solutions, not hiding in the caves. At some point, if we refuse to live in the world Hashem gave us _today_, then we are not witnesses of Hashem’s Torah to the world… On the other hand, at what speed? It does seem legitimate to proceed slowly. As R Steinsaltz used to say, ask us in 50 years about halochos of electricity, ask us in 100 years about what was the meaning of Shoah, we are an old religion that takes time to come to conclusions.
3) when you understand that there are multiple legitimate approaches, and we might not know yet which one is right, and most likely each one is partially right, then there is a way to see who is reasonable – the one who appreciate at least some value in other movements, when they are doing it l’shem shamayim. There are many who do, and there are many who just advocate for their own movement.
yankel berel, what now strikes me is the lack of direct communications from Chofetz Chaim on this burning topic. He had an opportunity to publish multiple articles in the papers to publicize his opinion. He was very outspoken on many topics.
This seems more significant than competing quotes from people who heard something in private. It seems that Chofetz Chaim wanted to be the posek for all observant Jews and did not want to be part of the machlokes. How do we interpret this?
hakatan > you’re stating that, by Yiftach, the only “daas Torah” was after the war, not on his appointment as leader and general before the war?
interesting question. From peshat, it seems that same people who previously mistreated Yiftach, now called for his help. I don’t know whether that group consulted daas Torah. Do you have any meforshim on this topic?
haleivi > nor as Rebbe Akiva as a central figure or even as a promoter
Any possible connections with mass of R Akiva’s students dying and the rebellion? Whether yes or no, we can presume that support of the most popular Rav of that generation caused many people joining the rebellion. If R Akiva had 24,000 students at some point, the number of people influenced by his opinion would be higher than that.
of course, this presumes that markets work. When would markets fail?
1) government not allowing competition
This has some effect on fridges due to recent regulations on increase energy efficiency and such. This increases costs.2) lack of information.
This might play a role: if consumers do not get information about total ownership costs and obsolescence. For that, you performed public service by making us all think about the issue. Next step – collect solid statistics comparing reliability and costs for different models and publicize it.none. Corporations compete with each other. They will reduce the price if this would increase their profits. This is proven during last couple of centuries of capitalism.
NP, as I said, it depends. There are some trades where it is possible to be ehrlich, but some – I am not sure. So, you need to learn the economics of the trade before engaging in it.
Let’s say you are selling something that can be smuggled without paying tariffs, or most use illegal workers who use fake SSNs, or parties pay cash to each other to avoid tax payments – can you be honest despite this? I think, it depends:
1) if the occupation is mostly “business” – that is main costs are due to materials and labor that you buy/sell, then it is very hard. If business profit is, say, 10%, and level of cheating is 15%, then an honest businessman will be losing 5% on every transaction. The only possibility would be to have an infrastructure of honest businesses that buy from each other. This is possible but I don’t think happens often (unfortunately).
2) if the occupation involves payment for your work skills, then it is not that hard. If a dishonest plumber gets paid $100K, then an honest one will be OK with $50K. Even more so for accountants, doctors and even professors. They are all paid good salaries. Yes, they also have yetzer hara and have opportunities to cheat. But it is not a crushing pressure that affects business people where it is hard to earn an honest living.
This is not a new distinction. Gemora in Kiddushin 30 that you mention talks about professions v business. Teaching business does not prevent the kid from becoming a bandit because of uncertainty. I think we agree here, I am just pointing that some trades are more of a “business” and to be careful.
Menachem,
you probably will not forget the kid in the car on the way to Disney Land. Your daily commute is the problem and you do not need the phone then, unless you are an amazon or uber driver.We had before a hypothetical discussion what will happen with Rambam in our generation? Will he go to Lakewood or/and MIT and what will happen after. We probably have some of the answers in the case of the Chacham.
Driving is an experience where you fully depend on other people for staying safe. Think when you are on an undivided highway – what a hidden nes that all vehicle coming towards you keep their vehicle within the correct lane …
This is discussed in Avoda Zara 20s about walking along the road with a non-Jew, or a Jewish robber or thief. There are halochos of defensive walking – don’t join them if you can, walk on the side of his weapon, walk on top (back when going down, front-side when going up), telling them that you are going further than you intend to. These halochos apply to any non-Jew, you don’t know his intentions, but you take safety measures.
This was taught in yeshivos in all countries (one example – students of R Akiva, another – Rav Yehuda).These halochos can be directly translated into defensive driving – avoid traffic times, do not drive in blind spot, let speeding drivers pass, keep your children from running in the parking lot while others drive fast and with phones (the scariest thing I see when going to shopping malls in “frum” towns).
Chofetz Chaim seemed to avoid machlokes in many issues.
I went through 2 volumes of his letters and public speeches in 1920s Poland and he calls on people not to send kids to non-religious schools, namely cultural and such, and talks about various anti-religious movements in Poland, but he has nothing to say about Zionism as such.
Other sources say that he did not publish anything about Zionism until he saw articles saying that one can speak Hebrew without Torah and it is a maala, etc and Chofetz Chaim finally responding publicly saying that it is a mistake to think that EY without Torah will work. As to RZ, there seem to be multiple quotes of CH.Ch. welcoming R Kook’s son, of him refusing to sign up to denunciations of R Kook, they do not like they are made up.
I think, whatever the disagreements, we should at least take to heart Chofetz Chaim’s attitude of not loving machlokes.
> The parts of modern Ukraine that are more Western oriented, are generally the parts that were historically part Hungary and other countries such as Poland.
exactly. Kiev was under russia for several hundred years, indeed. Before that, under Litvish and Tatars. They are a product of a big bilbul and were under a lot of prosecution from many.
> you’d choose to use a non-frum Conservative “rabbi” Abraham Heschel
Because it is a powerful teaching that I learnt from an O Rabbi (and he was not conservative in 1930 Germany).> humongeous percentage of former Soviet Israelis are halachicly goyim is an undisputed fact.
I am not disputing that, I am just thinking it is not higher than American. How many people are Jewish in your local reform temple (is there one in Monsey?). You simply look at your own from inside and differentiate; and you are looking at others (russians, israelis, sephardim) and judge them as one mass. What next – you’ll be verifying holocaudt survivors whether they are eligible for cohanim? As mentioned in another threat, your lack of empathy puts children of all your wives into a questionable halachik status.
One problem with trades – in some countries – that some of them are built on illegal or immoral activities. You should research that. Construction and meat processing may hire illegal workers; other businesses do a lot of chas business and do not fully report earnings; others – get profit from skimping on stuff (nursing homes), etc. You may intend to be ehrliche, but you sometimes simply will not be able to compete.
There is a letter on the front page from a grown-up bochur complaining that tzibur is not helping him enough to find a job. his frustration is understandable…
That made me think – rabbonim who guided such bochrim should be responsible for their wellbeing, as long as their demands are not excessive, of course.
So, if a bochur has hard time finding employment or a shidduch (because he does not have stable employment) should be able to go back to the yeshiva and receive assistance directly from the yeshiva funds.This is not a new issue. When R Kotler started his yeshiva, he had hard time convincing parents to send boys to yeshiva instead of college. His initial students were in high school, because after that everyone went to college (and we are talking about times when only small percentage of Americans went to college). Presumably, a couple of years w/ R Kotler convinced the boys to stay in yeshiva, and parents could not fight it. Now, as one of close students report. R Kotler took his student life seriously. In one case, the student noticed that Rav was fasting (he did not taste the coffee that the student brought for him in the morning). The reason – one of his former, not best, students had hard time looking for a shidduch and the parents were supposed to call the Rav for a reference. What was the Rav fasting and davening for? So that they don’t call him – he did not have much good to say about the student but could not jeopardize his chances for the shidduch either … ad kan the tory. AAQ inference: surely the student would have found a shidduch if he were a talmid chochom or had a good job. As he achieved neither, he had problems. So, R Kotler was himself responsible for the matzav. No wonder, the tzaddik was fasting …
“ironically”, there are less claimants to Caribbean slavery – as most of those slaves were dying quickly and were substituted with new arrivals.
Slave descendants in US are probably from the times when importation of slaves stopped and, thus, existing slaves were treated as a multi-generational investment.I mentioned West Africa as a comparison base. A modern US citizen of African descent changed his destiny from being a poor person in West Africa to US. So, white people technically – al pi din? – owe him the difference. This sounds crude (as any exact din) but it is not new thinking, this is thinking behind creation of Liberia and sending freed slaves there.
Seriously speaking, every modern affluent society has an obligation to provide members with opportunities to develop. As it is possible to move up quickly within 1-2 generations, there is no need to look too far back as long as your current society is just. More importantly, provide your help in a wise way that helps people develop, instead of developing dependencies and bad behaviors.
HaKatan > These wicked thugs intentionally destroyed decades worth of stored food, plunging the city into horrific hunger, as the gemara describes, just to attempt to force Jews to join them in fighting the Romans rather than the Rabbonim’s approach of making peace.
Exactly. I think the lesson is that Jews in EY should keep their joint strength and supply intact, instead of destroying it on inter-Jewish fights. As Rabbonim were willing to live in peace with Romans, without demanding special privileges and transfer payments from the Caesar; our generation should be able to live in peace with the current government without trying to complicate their fight against true enemies.
yya > but it’s not MY logic, it’s a Gemara in Kiddushin 71a, which is brought להלכה למעשה in detail in Even HaEzer Siman 2.
of coursecoffee > You don’t know of any goyim that have good middos?
the way I understand it – if you find someone with bad middos among Jews, you should suspect them. Does not say anything about some gyyim being nice. It relates to intermarriages – Jews who marry non-Jews did an aveirah; non-Jews who marry Jew might be a tzadik who tries to find his way to Torah, or just in general hold Jews in high esteem (credit: my FIL). So, ironically, those children who are halachikally non-Jewish might have a tzaddekes for a mother.
amom,
I am not arguing with your lifestyle choices, H’Sh. Just discussing theory here. There are not that many demeaning tasks in the house that your kids are not capable of doing. As my kids report, many of their friends have no idea about chores, they have non-English speaking cleaning stuff doing everything for them. When in camp, they struggle with very simple support. And some, not all, of these families rely on public assistance to cover their non-working lifestyle. What is going to happen with these kids, especially girls, when they become responsible for their own household with husbands learning and limited income? As gemora says in Kiddushin ~ 29 – a father not teaching his son a profession is teaching him robbery (listut).> G-d does not permit women to learn gemara
back to sq. 1? We have here classical sources saying that such women will get sechar, but not as for the mitzvah. You may have other sources but, you are just slandering all these rabbonim and have no hesitation to do that?
And what is your explanation on R Moshe’s granddaughter learning Gemorah? R Moshe did not raise his daughter properly? R Moshe himself proposed the shidduch (sort of, probably manipulated somewhat by said daughter) – you are saying he was not good at selecting the son-in-law? R Moshe’s sons became outstanding Roshei Yeshivos – and everyone knows that there is no guarantee in our generations on how children grow up – and selection of a son-in-law is a much easier task – you are looking at the already formed person. Please explain to me what is your explanation here.
HaKatan > You seem to be proposing that because women know secular subjects on advanced levels that, therefore, they must also learn gemara (on high levels, lectures, BM, et al.) I don’t see any logic connecting those two.
Right. I am not sure why you can’t connect, maybe we have different understanding of what Torah or what secular subjects are. You can, just guessing, define them on a simple level – Torah is learning details of mitzvos and science is learning physics and math, and there is no connection between them. Or, you can say – Torah is Hashem’s lesson to us on what the world is, and Science is a humble human effort of trying to understand that same world.
on a very simple level – if you look at Gemora (say Avodah Zora 27) or at Rambam, you’ll see a lot of “secular” knowledge about medicine and science discussed by Rabbonim. So, clearly there is an intersections between the two.> Judge Ruchie Freier, for example, is a chassidic woman.
This is only half of the story. Let’s look at two possibilities: (1) chassidic woman who went into professions as you mentioned. (2) people who are already exposed to secular subjects – this one you ignoreSo, your chassidic secular judge is involved in a mitzva of helping non-Jews to achieve justice. Do you think she would benefit from looking at Jewish concepts of justice, for example justice v. rahmanus debate in Sanhedrin? in studying halochos on mitzvos bnei Noach? In studying how rabbonim issued takonos to protect society from going into a wrong direction? She might also need to encounter practical situations where she is invited to a lunch with non-Jewish dignitaries – how does she navigate her concerns with tznius and kashrus v. respect to authority? These are not simple issues, and she is not always able to call a Rabbi with a shailah.
Now, to the Jewish woman who is not very observant and has knowledge of secular subjects. She learned in her high-school a little of Judaism that consists of some boring rules that she needs to follow. She is not excited about them; she did not get good explanations from her teachers. What if she encounters fascinating books or lecture by R hirsh or by R Sacks – that is able to explain Jewish knowledge in the context of human civilization as a whole? She’ll surely change her attitude, and she’ll run to the closest kollel clamoring for a boy she wants to support on her professor’s salary. Win-win?
none > think some of these appliances should be 50 bucks everything is overpriced. I think a Jewish company should open and sell things by the actual price it should be or make quality products for same price
Gemorah already did this experiment: chachomim davened for Hashem to take yetzer harah away. Next day, nobody went to work, nobody got married, and even hens stopped laying eggs…
Most of these products are available from multiple companies. Is there fair competition? If there is, you can be sure you are getting good price. Otherwise, there will be a company with lower price. If the company is public, then you can read about their profit margins. You can also open your own company and sell things for cheaper. If you don’t have money, you can borrow from investors who will jump to get extra profit. This is how it works. So, rest assured that savings from using tighter specs are going to benefit you.
The main reason for overpricing would be lack of competition, such as government regulations (that is necessary in defense industry but rarely in others) and business constrains, such as cost of laying cable for the whole string leading to one dominant cable company. This can be sometimes remedied. For example, long-distance calls and phones themselves were part of AT&T monopoly – until they were separated by regulation.
smerel > And he explicitly referred to the movement to move to Eretz Yisriel due to the expulsion from parts of Russia as kibbutz golyus.
Thanks. I did not have a very reliable source for this story, it is impossible that context was stipped off for partisan reasons.
As to RZ, the famous quote that I think I saw in reliable sources is that Chofetz Chaim abandoned his plan to settle in Petach Tikva in the apartment that was already purhased for him (on rechov Chafetz Chaim) – that if he comes to P-T, he’ll go to Yerushalaim, and if he comes to R Kook first, Mishna Berurah won’t be accepted in Old Yishuv and vice versa. Says a lot what Chofetz Chaim thought about partisan fights.ZSK, thanks, I just noticed that the thread is deleted – where we had a scholarly discussion about Rabmam!? This is the strangest decision I saw here. Hope our esteemed mods reconsider and focus on posts that are using inappropriate language and slander multitudes of Jews for no good reason.
+1
R Twersky writes that modern Jewish education became, unfortunately, standardized so that non-conformal thinking is suppressed.
R Kirsteinbaum (sp?)/Waterbury writes that “we are losing our Resh Lakishim” because of that.Some other Rav writes how Jews were sent to Golus to collect good middos from all nations. He has a lot to say about all those nations, but for America he has – “ability to do everything at scale”. So, it works for Mcdonalds and Google, so the scale in America works for large yeshivos … Most of us are so assimilated (whether we wear coloured kippot or shtreimels) – that we do not even notice that this conformity is not our mesorah.
I think it was ben Azzai who was thinking Hashem for so many people working hard to make his breakfasts – farmers, traders, marketers …
In our times, thank Hashem for chinese workers putting your phone together, American engineers planning obsolescence so that your fridge will be cheaper to make (and thus cheaper for you to buy in a competitive economy), for those who put money into retirement funds and thus indirectly invest in the most successful companies, making those companies to quickly get capital to create new fancy products for you. Literally, billions of people support your existence. Be grateful, do not complain and apply yourself to Torah and mitzvos. The same way, the cow gets fulfilled by your kosher eating it, the phone assembler gets fulfilled by you learning tosfos on that phone.
FAKENEWS > Also, history is written by the victors.
This is a great counter-example!! Romans won then, and wrote history also, but we wrote more of history by now. We even wrote part of their history (Josephus).
Gemorah describes Jewish nationalists who rebelled against the Romans and inability of Rabbonim to control them (R Yochanan b Zakkai and his nephew).
You can read Gemora Gittin as how inter-Jewish fights bring external attacks when one side appeals to them against the others. As Henry Kissinger observed “Israel does not have international politics, only domestic”.
For a more learnt discussion, I suggest looking at R Berel Wein who brings both Jewish and non-Jewish sources.
> Many Russians and Ukrainians in Eretz Yisroel are Goyim.
As mentioned in another thread, someone who always points at others, should be himself suspected.They are obviously more intermarried than Israeli Jews (thanks to Zionists who brought them to EY and thanks to Arabs who refused to mix with them!) but not that different from American Jews. At least Russian/Ukrainian Jews have official passports that list nationalities and patronymics, so Israeli Rabbanut can figure out who is legit for marriages. Also, they have secular marriages that can be simply disregarded. And at the end, they are survivors of decades of prosecution and ignorance … way longer than European Jews under shoah… Probably, only Spanish marranos have a longer history of survival.
I am told that there is a special russian-speaking department with kosher Russian Jews who spend time checking those documents and calling up grandparents to confirm. So, I would say, if you are confronted by Russian Jews who were married in Israel, they have chezkat kashrus.
At the same time, in this country, you need to deal with non-O marriages and conversions; with O-marriages without non-O divorces, leading to mamzerim … So, I think we need to be humble here.ujm, there were multiple mysterious posters at the beginning of Russian invasion into Ukraine with such views that then disappeared. You got some very chassidishe people not only writing in Yinglish, but having impressive history knowledge correlated to soviet textbooks. I presumed they were part of Russian cyber war where they went into all kind of online publications. Are you their long-term resident and got new orders?
There is more historical anti-semitism in Ukraine (and in Poland, and in Lithuania, and in Germany) than in Russia – for a simple reason: Russian empire did not allow Jews enter it, with few exceptions. Even after Russia conquered Polish areas with large Jewish population, those were limited to beyond the “Pale” – previous borders of Russia (incidentally, “beyond the Pale” is something that applies to your posts too!). As to current population, a large swath of Ukraine is Western-oriented (and many are currently in Europe). They can’t be that antisemitic as they voted for a Jewish comic as President, however assimilated. Russia mostly stayed the same it was under Czars and Commies.
But I will give you. As much as I think it is reasonable for Ukrainian Jews to defend their country against an invasion, it will be reasonable for Russian Jews to defend their country when Chinese attack it. As to participation in an invasion, directly or indirectly, see writings of Abraham Heschel who cryptically writes in 1930s, under Nazi censorship, that Sephardi Jews were prosecuted but avoided being victimizers themselves – as they would have been during La conquista de América if they were to join the invasion. This was written for those German Jews who lamented that they were not accepted as true german nationalists… Same applies to nebach russian jews
somejew > story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie.
sigh. I see – everything you disagree with is a lie. You have an Acute true Scotsman Syndrome.
I am with none the 2nd for delegating cleaning to the family. Amom, it might drive you insane first to force your children to clean after themselves, but this will pay off longer-term.
YYA, I agree on severity of those who joke about others’ lineage. At the same time, we should not be too haughty. R Zeira silently rejected R Yohana’s daughter as he thought that yichus in EY in his times was not good enough. Where does this leave those of us who come from Sanzer chassidim!?
To extend your logic, I thiojnk, good middos is the only sure sign of good yihus, and opposite – of opposite.
It is a mitzvah for parents to educate their children in Torah, middos, jobs, and work ethics. Especially for girls, Gemora in Kiddushin calls to beautify them for marriage. So, teach her beautiful middos and prepare her for a job that will let her buy herself jewelry.
Find your daughter a job in your town, make sure she works honestly, find a private teacher or teach her yourself in things she needs and wants to learn; compensate her lack of fun with trips to EY and other places. Explain to her that the name of the seminary is used in shidduch resumes to reject people who go to a “wrong” type. Instead, she will be asked “why didn’t you go to seminary” – and you’ll explain and refer to the Talmid or Talmidah chachoma that taught her and knows her so well, and families who do not understand this will happily reject themselves, reducing your workload.
Yes, a lot of appliances break down right after the warranty expires – and they are built that way. In fairness, the prices are not as they were decades ago. If you compute prices as part of income, you will see that US prices for food and stuff are decreasing over time.
In terms of appliances, you will be better off not buying integrated ones. Buy separate dryer and washer – so when one breaks, you only buy one. If your fridge breaks but freezer is still working – buy 1 or 2 small stand-alone fridges and keep the old one for freezer.
ujm >Are you open to hearing and potentially accepting the view that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism
I think we all here spent some time patiently listening to these positions. If some, sometimes, inappropriately responded in less than polite way, that was after that position was repeated 100th times same way ignoring all the opposing arguments. And, in truth, this is not what arguments here were about. Nobody here would argue that anti-religious Zionism is against Torah, as any anti-religious movement is, by definition. The question is about how to relate to such Jews and how to cooperate or not with them in politics, and how to relate to other religious Jews who find zechut in non-religious Zionists.
amom > e definitely did some masechtos in Succah, and the masechtos that have to do with the moon’s cycle (he used my diagrams and sheets for his shuir). There were more. Learning Gemarah taught me valuable skills.
How did he teach you? I presume you were not going into long sugyot about how this opinion is different from an opinion in another place, but mostly concentrating on the subject matter? If yes, some would say, you are not really learning Gemorah! But (I think) Rambam will accept your learning as Gemora learning in it’s abstract definition – learning reasons behind mitzvos.
HaKatan > None of your arguments about how they need to better understand hilchos basar viChalav are in any way relevant to all of that. Let them understand basar biChalav as well as they can. But they do not need to learn gemara just like the men do.
amom> my father would pull out the Artscroll Gemarah, and I would do it with him… masechtos in Succah, and the masechtos that have to do with the moon’s cycleHaKatan, maybe I was not clear. This educated women need to have access to Judaism at comparable level they have to other areas of knowledge. In amom’s case – she is teaching math, so her father wisely showed her where Judaism uses math. It helped her integrate her knowledge of math with Judaism. And maybe answer silly students who would say – Rabban Gamliel did not know math, why should I … (the answer to the silly question: R Gamliel had 1000 students in his household learning Torah and 1000 learning Greek, whatever that was. Note that numbers are symbolically the same).
So, ladies who learned philosophy, economics, educational theories (hope these mean something to you) would surely benefit from knowing Jewish sources on these subjects, whether they are super-frum or whether they are marginally affiliated. I once attended a lecture by a super-frum psychologist. She made a great effort integrating Jewish traditional views on child education with her practice and tracing it through century. I was so impressed by her effort that when she made a mistake in her math that undermined her core argument, I did not raise the question 🙂
HaKatan > Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik gave a public talmud class to women in Stern College for Women.
> MO schools have batei midrash where girls learn random gemaras. That is all wrong. Period.I understand that he did this opening class (pictures exist) exactly in order to make it clear that it is not wrong. As he is a Talmid Chochom, who was recognized by others as such – even those who disagreed, you need to at least pay attention to his arguments, as much as you do to other gedolim you are quoting. And as much as it was controversial then, I don’t think it is burning so much. From what I hear, only small number of Stern girls attend classes that are pure Gemora (as it should be) and those might be mostly wrongly motivated by feminism. At the same time, their regular classes refer to Gemora occasionally in addition to Rambam, Sh’A, poskim, and this is also as it should be.
I would note that when I mention some selected Gemoras (mostly related to mussar, agoda, or practical halocha, I am not doing pilpul with them) to BY students in my house, they often heard it at BY (without word Gemora mentioned). If they did not hear that, they are eager to discuss also – as long as I don’t call it a gemorah class and then they run away :). The most productive are the gemorahs that are either missing or opposite to what they are taught at BY, such as obligations to work, work ethics. I think with time they accepted that we pasken by Gemorah over BY printouts. So, in this case, Gemora is useful to keep girls’ education from going away too far into factional abyss.
Well, there is such thing as national unity and, therefore, obligations. We have this discussion in Gemora about Egyptians suing Jews in greek courts for stuff we took out and Jews countersuing for slavery. So, the subject itself is legit. Did white Americans compensated former slaves sufficiently? If not accounting for deaths and sufferings, then probably the appropriate measure would be – were they given sufficient property comparable to current West Africans, such as Liberia (that was founded by freed American slaves).
> sure daven, bribe, and run away.
I do not know full context, but here is a different take on Chofetz Chaim on the issue at hand:
Haredi Jews approached the Chofetz Chaim, .. to complain about the actions of the secular residents of Eretz Yisrael [who] .. had abandoned Torah learning and mitzvah observance. The Chofetz Chaim answered them.. “And they will dwell upon it securely and build houses and plant vineyards” (Yechezkel 28:26). He thus showed them that when it comes to building up the Land of Israel, the Prophet Yechezkel mentions houses and vineyards, not houses of worship and yeshivot. Obviously, the Chofetz Chaim, the great Torah Scholar, wanted synagogues and yeshivot to be built in Eretz Yisrael, but he understood that the Revival of the Nation of Israel would begin at a more basic and material stage. This stage would provide the foundation for the spiritual awakening which would arrive at a much later time.