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yaakov,
I think you have good arguments that CY is easy to obtain in large Jewish communities. I am also sympathetic to being more careful in mitzvos.Still, there are costs and compromises this causes. Count all funds spent on obtaining “frummer” food. If you work, as Chofetz Chaim said explaining why he did not have a certain sefer at home: gelt is tzeit, and tzeit is Toirah! How more you would be able to learn? How more time you could spend learning with your children? These are core Torah mitzvos. If you are a gvir, you probably spend more – and you could have given more tzedokah. If you learn when your in-laws or gevirim support you – you could decrease time you depend on tzedokah. If you, H’V, obtain government programs despite being able to work – you can decrease amount of geneiva.
As I mentioned above a simple way to see how balanced you are – are you more machmir in sakanah than in issurim? Do you spend more effort making sure you don’t drive in a risky manner than on buying super-frum foods?
nevuah, indeed. It is amazing that while technology and economy changed so much over centuries, basic human behaviors did not. Meraglim and Korach are still useful archetypes in our generation. Is it discouraging that centuries of learning and practicing mitzvos and we still did not overcome such problems.
pure, you seem to be self-contradictory – you both acknowledge that chumros can be detrtimental and they say “it is fine’.
While there are certainly people who just dont like someone more observant, as you sare saying, I don’t think Chaim is that.
My personal opinion – chumra movement helped create great large communities, giving people a stimulus to be more observant – but by now chumros are taking the mental space of harder things, like middos and chesed, and lead to looking down and outright rejection of people who are not following those cbumros, or follow different chumros … and we need to deal with that
charidy, this is like saying eating camel is better than eating pork. Yes, one is more dangerous than the other but both are dangerous.
nevuah, I am not looking down at them, I am trying to judge them l’tzad zechus.
The issue is not that they have a different opinion, but that they have different facts. I just brought a couple of examples. I personally try not to believe “partisan” information from whatever side. That, hopefully, would make me not a tinok here. If you think I have facts wrong, please correct me. Others here do that, and this is the right thing to do.
DaMoshe,
I think there is also a private teshuva to a hospital, where R Moshe says they should use CY. If I recall correctly, both for some general consideration, but also because people who eat only CY have a status of neder and this should be respected.eddie > First of all, in the beginning lakewood did serve what is called in the vernacular Cholv Stam. When he was made aware of the strong feelings of the bochurim regarding using the heter,
I don’t think this is the right expression. R Moshe was not unique in allowing chalav companies, he was simple unique in statute among those who did. So, it is not necessarily that other rabbonim “relied on rav Moshe’s heter” which creates an impression that status quo in America was CY and then R Moshe permit it. This can look indeed so from the point of view who just arrived from places they were machmir.
Yasher koach to Mr Schwartz.
I talked to an emergency surgeon recently. His most frequent customers are those who ride bikes and escooters.qwerty> much of the Chareidi world thinks that there’s a Heter to slander MO’s. This is classic Yetzer hora.
they are tinokos shenishba, unfortunately simply repeating what they heard.
First, they are conflating “not very observant” with “modern O”. So, if someone makes an effort to build communities attracting people who are not yet fully observant, it does not mean that they are at the same level. It is very clear in the case of Chabad Rabbis, but this holds true for “modern” rabbis also.
2nd – I hesitate to use “MO” term in general – it is not frankly such a mailah that R Soloveitchik addresses modernity from the halachik POV, it is a startling fact that many of his contemporaries refuse to learn what is happening in the world. He used the term of “isolationist orthodox” or something like that for his opponents.
3rd – they are tinokos because they get censored info. I recently heard a story about R Lichtenstein asking a certain sheilah from R Auerbach (whom RL chose as his Israeli posek, despite having r Soloveitchik as his teacher and FIL). I looked up if I can find more details on the shailah – and I get a story on a “frum” website that quotes “a rov who asked this shailah from R Auerbach”. All the details are there except the name of the “rov”. So, if someone learns “history” as this, what do you expect. I was once learning with a pretty worldly young charedi ruv and I mentioned a story of a non-Jew in a remote location reacting to my kippah – and he was surprised – “oh, you wear kippah to work?!”. While there are some settings where people do not wear kippah to work, a lot of people do. I guess this is how his teachers made sure the students do not even think about working in goyishe velt.
There is a lot of “consumer attitude” in our group behavior. We feel entitled to politicians serving us the desired outcome.
As some posters here already noted, there was a lot achieved.Argument that new Iranian leadership is more radical than previous is not a good argument. In a war, it is always a good thing to eliminate enemy’s leaders. Nobody argued that al qaeda will be greater without osama. Or that eliminating suleimani will bring crazier iranian generals.
And, as I mentioned before, don’t disregard great strategic achievement – that there will be diversification of oil production away from ME and of ME oil delivery away from the Straits. I saw a report that UAE (that left OPEC as part of this conflict and will now increase production) is planning to finish additional pipelines and railroads around the straits in year. Look at the map to understand UAE geography on both side of the straits.
Chaim,
you mean, of course, chalav hacompanies, as R Moshe defined it, not chalav stam that your neighbor milked himself. And the companies will lose their business from USDA supervision if they were to put something funny there. For example, you would not rely on chalav hacompanies in China. They had cases there where a supplier put some cheap additives to baby milk; babies died; and parents came to kill suppliers …But you are right, I think most people just feel good for being more machmir, especially when you don’t have complete information about the complicated food processing chain. I listened recently to an expert and he said – some people are afraid that coffee-making equipment will be washed with treif. Don’t worry – I investigated that and they do not wash it at all. So, if you are ok with that, go ahead and drink! 🙂
There are two possible remedies:
1) suggest them to think of chumros that are more difficult and also lead to some conequences to them and to other people – for example: be less angry, be more forgiving to other people in business, spend more time with kids, let other drivers cut in front of you …2) study the sugya – we are more machmir in sakana (such as snake poisoning the water) v issurim. So, let them ponder – are they more careful crossing the street than choosing a donut?
There is a precedent of not liking useful seforim –
Mehndelsohn German translation was condemned – and now Artscroll translated way more
Steinsaltz Talmud – same. And Artscroll Talmud is also good, but has more visible problems.Maybe this is more an issue with translation, while straight publishing is less problematic?
Still, we are using chapters that were introduced by non-Jewish publishers.Thank you, rebbetzin for the reminder. In my mind, the value of anonymous discussions is ability to discuss issue openly. Many people don’t meet members of other groups often, and when they do,, they’ll not get involved in discussing sensitive issues. This forum gives all of us such an opportunity to see the whole klal Yisroel.
Some excesses are inevitable. Even gemora compares T’Ch of Bavel with groups of animals and ladies that I would not be able to meiotn were the mods back from their summer vacation. That was because Bavli developed a method of argument and many learnt the method without keeping up the integrity.
So, the best way would be to call everyone to control themselves and get engaged in productive discussions. Especially, if there are people who know each other, you can take your personal arguments to Brooklyn bridge and come back here for substantive discussions.
HaLeivi > OP piece is pretty obviously not coming from someone who cares about Tznius
1) I heard and read from professionals that there is a possible issue, especially in big cities – “frum” people are on guard for non-Jewish non-kosher behavior, but when only “frum” people are in the office, they feel that they are ok and rules might be ignored
2) There are some teachers/schools that focus on the issue to the detriment of relating to the kids. My kids were laughing at a principal whose major focus was checking the colour and fashion of the socks, but barely cared about the educational process. B’H, my kids had healthy attitude towards that, but who knows how many kids either grew up into socks-Judaism or got turned off.
There seems to be something in the water in lower east side…
To salvage something ftom this craziness, it is very entertaining to see the new frumkeit measuring sticks: number of sinks and ovens. By these standards, I am afraid poster’s greatgrandma was also a shiksa.
do you need to pass regents in yinglish to be a chancellor? sadly, maybe not.
The specific bend of your headcover is a secondary symptom. unless you are a well-known rabbi or a chacham with excellent middos, one should avoid wearing unusual hats to prevent a difference between tocho and boro. It is a very strange yetzer harah that I can’t understand (or maybe I am just zoche somehow not to feel, thanks to my parents great education in middos).
I understand if you want to be a talmid chochom like R Kotler or reach a lot of people like L Rebbe. Great – shteig and reach out. But what is the maila of dressing up like them? When Aaron Hacohen got issued his 8 clothing items, were people ordering similar pants on tiktok?
My estimate: a lot was achieved: leaders eliminated, facilities destroyed. Political effects:
capability to strike is now believable, one more time, it will be a chazoka. They know what will happen if they are caught again
Arabs preferred to pay out the crazies. Now they know it might not help. So, they will finally spend money to build defences and pipelines around the Straights. So, Iran will have no leverage in a year.
Oil price stayed reasonable during the conflict and is going back to normal levels, squeezing russians, which will have less $ for the tricks in Europe, Iran and other places.So, despite all dreams not coming true, all is good.
How is this balagan about real names passing through?
Next, some VINnik will say that AAQ stands for Andrew Aaron Quixote, a miller, and how do I argue against it?Maybe because many chassidim are also out of shape like you are. The solution is more gym, less farbregens.
Appareently, R Moshe and L Rebbe met for the first time in 1975 when R Moshe was a mesader kiddushin for a Lubavitcher chosid (and L Rebbe did not do those things, so it seems that he kept his distance from such roles in general, not just funerals). At the meeting, L Rebbe asked R Moshe a question on Zohar and got an answer. So, LR did not feel above listening to R Moshe’s Torah (or maybe he wanted to probe whether R Moshe is learnt beyond nigleh)
I suggest checking out R Aharon Lichtenstein’s eulogy for L Rebbe, he directly addresses the issue raised here – moschiach issue, putting tefilin on people in the street, etc – and putting them into a greater context of L Rebbe and Chabad work. One of his remarks – L Rebbe was able to accept partial achievements (for example, making someone slightly more observant)
He brings an interesting observation (in the name of R Amital): R Moshe, R Soloveitchik. L Rebbe, all towering figure in USA and all had no immediate successors.
I decided to look up R Moshe/L Rebbe connection and found an interesting story reported in Ascent of Safed
Weekly Chasidic Story #745 (s5772-24 / 11 Adar 5772), Translated and adapted from Shemen Sasson M’Heveracha, vol. 4, pp 45-46that a L Chosid who was into checking people’s mezuzos met R Tendler on a plane in circa 1980. As a result of their kesher,
1) Chosid offered to check R Moshe’s mezuzos (chutzpah, if you ask me, but the story does not report how R Moshe or R Tendler responded)2) L Rebbe sent his sofer to write R Tam tefilin according to R Moshe’s specs and R Moshe resumed wearing it after not doing it from the time of his youth.
To the dedication of L chassidim: R Tendler came to R Moshe’s apartment at 6am and the sofer was sleeping near the door – he did not want to miss when R Moshe is leaving, so he came from previous night.qwerty> Would you like to present a theory as to why Schneersohn didn’t attend the funeral of the Gadol Hador?
I don’t know. I did not study what their relations were. I know R Soloveitchik had great relations with both. R Soloveitchik did not attend also – because people close to him did not tell him, worrying for his health. He found out when R Moshe did not call him before Pesach (they alternated calls), so he called himself and found out …
how do become a billionaire in Israel – come as a trillionaire
qwerty> That’s the problem with Nevuah’s style of arguing.
I do not have patience to read it all, but when he makes a reasonable point, you don’t have to deny it. Just point out what other opinions exist here, like ashergg did.
ashergg, this is a relevant baraisa, but I don’t think it gives a final answer one way or another in the times when you have multiple schools.
in-laws maybe double. For example, you are married to two half-sisters with a common mother, then she will be in multiple laws to you.
> I asked the 20 people in my office and 5 said they had their car stolen.
but seriously, this is called a “biased sample”. You are all in the same office. Ask 20 random Jews from different shuls and you’ll get a higher quality answer.
qwerty> Rebbe answered, “When I was a child starting Cheder (about 3 or 4 years old) I had a dream in which I had a vision of Moshiach. For me he’s the only person who I will call Nasi Yisrael.” In other words, after that dream the Rebbe decided he’s Moshiach
you seem to be reading too much into the quote. He is simply finding a polite way to explain that he does not recognize secular president as “Nasi”.
I would say that even if you would recognize it, it would be a prime minister, not a president.TLIK > Mosdos no longer are receptive to input from rabbonim concerning admissions
this is an interesting issue. Once one school guy was giving me an eitzah describing how he with his kid when to such-and-such godol when struggling with his kid. So, I asked him, what godol are they asking when they make decisions about kids, and he did not have a ready answer … this is strange – obviously, professionals should be more equipped in connecting to right advice and maybe are more in need of an eitzah as their own business interest biases them.
There are lots of stories fo R Schach, R Meltzer and others standing up for kids against yeshivos that rejected them. I don’t know though whether these stories scale to affect majority of mosdos.
Maybe someone from the office?
Chaim,
start by simply not going to these fancy trips/dinners/weddings. If you can’t say “no” to the rabbi demanding you join the trip, I am not sure why you are following such a rabbi. Find someone who can be an example of middos for you.nevuah & asher> When did i say people are supposed to operate with blind faith?
See Rambam introduction to Mishnah. He says that we can infer the reason for humanity to exist by difference relative to animals. So, you don’t need humans to eat and procreate. So, thinking it is. Particularly, exploring and understanding the Creation and Creator. He then struggles to explain what is the reason for people who are not involved in that exploration to exist – his suggestions are that they are working to support Thinkers (those who are productive), keep them company (those who are nice), and provide material for Thinkers to analyze. I wonder what where how he would explain online posters.
At the end of menachos, there is a discussion of Beit Chonyo, while not kosher, not being avoda zorah and having positive influence on other nations
HaLeivi,
I undeestand, of course, that these argumenbts need to be addressed, but in my mind, the dishonest/biased approach to Torah is a much bigger concern that a particular reading of an unclear gemorah. We got desensitized by modern approach to information where freedom of speech has priority over truth. This is not really a kosher approach. You can’t quote a Rashi to convince someone, hoping he does not know that Tosfos disagrees … this is so basic and violation of intellectual honesty should be more revolting than someone eating pork. It says a lot about us that we are treating it so lightly.Chaim,
excellent lesson from your rav!asher> and they do that because as long as the bocher is not in yeshiva yet, they keep the yeshiva as the priority.
as I said before, one issue may be collusion, if it is happening.
I don’t know how well the selection process is, I am hearing kind of random “boys” “girls” encounter in shidduchim – a lot of them have great yeshivos on their resumes, but then turn out very unmotivated and spending time in “learning” because that is what parents or community expects of them. Do some get ahead of those who really want to learn?
It also could be that Hashem is looking out for these guys – He often gives people what they need, not what they want … Maybe these guys are getting a message that they should go get an erliche job, maybe after college, and continue learning – B’H, there are plenty of Talmidei Chachomim who will be happy to learn with an enthusiastic young man. Just daven that your chevrusa will also not be accepted and you can continue learning together!
haleivi> Steipler ZL did say that after the fact, it is a reality and we should not focus on the Issur anymore.
look, you are talking to person/people who refuse to acknowledge any statements from Talmidei Chachomim that are not part of their group. This is such a bizayon, I don’t see how you can seriously discuss implication of gemorahs with them. R Yermiyahu was kicked out of the yeshiva because he asked a question about a pigeon with one foot beyond 50 amos, and this is way beyond that line.
SQRT> What can they do, when most of their donors say that they only want to donate to those yeshivahs that are “the best of the best” or “the top 10%”?
I understand that the story here is not just competitive admission but that the students who apply to other places are rejected (not clear to me: whether this information is listed in the application or is exchanged between schools). If this is what is happening, then this is collusion that reduces competition and is at the expense of students.
chaim
>> move gradually in the opposite direction
> Thats exactly my point. Sure I should move gradualy towards that goal. But thew more the rich move the needle the other way the more that gradual moves becomes harder.another thing – I am trying to attend less-popular and modest simchas and skip the rich ones that everyone attends. This does not require a big public statement and you can talk about with your friends and gradually more people will do the same.
asher> I’m not sure what the story of r zeirah has to do with daas torah.
R Yochanan thought that his daughter is a great shidduch to his student. The student disagreed, despite showing his tremendous kavod to his teacher’s Torah.
> I was reffering to those who come in with strong verdict and pose as they value daas torah
I agree here – people often misunderstand “daas Torah” for selecting “daas” that fits their own view and using that “daas” to convince others. The moment though Daas Torah says something different … see, for example, R Bender’s letter about e-scooters – if he has to publish that, it means that his students are not listening … (and it is good to know that he is saying that, because my first reaction when I see students behaving stupidly – their teachers are at fault …)
pekak,
teshuva is not necessarily a one-moment thing. A person in his environment can learn something and make decisions later.You and some other posters seem to imagine that such a person has same information and attitudes as you do, he is just too attached to non-Jewish women and pork. It is not so. His information is limited and distorted, and his value judgment is impaired. So, giving him the information in a way that he can absorb, is definitely a useful thing. I agree that chances are that children might be more receptive, so getting children to a chabad house party or an oorah event, would be something that parents can facilitate also.
asher, we discussed DT before here. People make their own mind sometimes …
R Zeirah carried R Yochanan on his hands over a puddle. R Yochanan got upset – so you value my Torah, but not my daughter?! R Zeirah did not think that Israeli yichus (including R Yochanan!) was good enough for his pure Bavli lineage …
R Zelig Epstein was asked – how come Mir Yeshiva left via USSR despite R Grozdinki’s daas Torah (I think this is the famous one where he said to use visas for older Rabbis). He replied – simple, that was “before Daas Torah”.
So, maybe disparaging a decision maybe a bad approach, but it is legit to ask what is the reasoning. And those in the area might want to simply go and ask about it, and I am sure the Rabonim will explain. Please post the answers here! Of course, there are exception – gemora quotes gezeros that were publicized without reasoning first as they were afraid that it will hinder acceptance. But I think this is an exception, not the rule.
at some point, elite universities were colluding in making financial support offers to best applicants to make sure there is not much competition. Their excuse was that they were not really fixing prices, as much as distributing charity “more efficiently”. They were sued and lost.
as you describe, if yeshivas engage in exchanges of information leading to decrease in competition – they may be doing something not legal. And if it is borderline legal, maybe worth thinking if this is kosher.
Traditional Jewish system was to allow unlimited competition between torah teachers, including suspension of local zoning laws (that is your yard neighbors can complain if open a store, but not a school). The goal is not comfortable salaries for teachers but affordability for parents.
There are other ways schools restrict competition – by integrating all classes together, for example and by making switching costs high (schools have different derech, your reputation may suffer, your kid may not be accepted). Imagine all 5th grade rebbes in town were to compete directly for the students, rather than you selecting a school and then the principal controlling the teacher selection and salaries.
qwerty> The source you asked for is from the Book of Ezra. Ezra ordered those who had married gentiles to divorce their wives and stay away from the children of those unions, if they wanted to be part of the Jewish nation.
Ok, good you found this reference, so Ezra did outreach to those Jews. It is just your contention that this outreach should be ordering them to file divorces. Please point me to a kiruv organization (or your own experience) where Kiruv Ezra works in our times. If it does not, then we need other approaches. Again, what is your approach.
NP> It’s not about knowing or not knowing how to teach your children. It’s about being mkabel Torah from the Hachmei HaDor who themselves where mkabel from the Hachamim of the previous Dor.
I have such chachomim in my town and I learn with/from them. This was the norm before yeshiva movement started (became necessary because of changes in the world). There was a Bavli norm when students come to yeshiva twice a year.
> It’s about learning Torah a full day b’ameilus.
you can do same in your home town. You can also combine your learning with work.
> It’s about Benai Torah building vibrant communities where even those who eventually become eirlich ba’alai batim have an appreciation what it means to learn b’havanah yesharah. Communities led by Rebbeim worthy of the title.
Economics of such communities is very questionable. Most plan to become rebeim teaching each other’s children. A significant part of incoming funds might be based on goyishe tzedoka. This is not ehrliche.
This is not to deny multiple reasons for yeshivos, as I mentioned. But pretending that “living in the desert” (loshon Chazon Ish) is normal living is not right.
tlik> . They need to have the best image, and be considered the caddilac yeshiva compared to others
in cases where your picture reflects the reality – why would you want your kid to go to such place? Because you also want him to be a graduate of a best-image yeshiva? This is no different from “materialistic” parents who prefer Ivy league no matter what. Then, it is your fault. (general “your” – parents who follow this). If you are concerned that your kid’s shidduch resume will be down the pile, find other ways to show his skills – let him get a job, volunteer in kiruv, start a chesed organization, get college credits … and have emunah that there are other parents who value these.
chaim87> You can’t say no to a vort and only have shnaps and cake
You are right, drastic changes are hard. But we somehow got to the current situation – gradually. So, move gradually in the opposite direction – make each next simcha a little less extravagant, rather than more.
Of course, Rambam in halachos deos recommends to temporarily go to the opposite middah to train yourself and later return to the “golden middle”, but this is possibly with leadership actions, not by individuals as you rightfully say.
I could not confirm the story with either of them, but I stumbled at an interesting connection:
Benjamin Frnaklin system of year-long character improvement was adopted by R Lefin, author of Chshbon Hanefesh, “maskil and chacham” who travelled to Germany to meet Mendelsohn and tried to merge tradition and modernity. R Lefin says that the system is not his, but does not name the author (but deletes inappropriate religious references, of course). R Lefin’s book was later supported sand influenced R Salanter who adopted the system! Some modern posters refer to this as “R Salanter’s system” …