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maybe you can learn this sugya from Bava Mtzeiya 107 – requirement to clear up your forest along the river for people who are pulling boats.
There is also “tragedy of commons” – see people crossing a major street through snow, jumping from one snowbank to another. Nobody would think to bring a shovel and create a path for the tzibbur – unless the government sends a crew. “Nobody in the history of the world washed a rental car” (Lawrence Summers).
R Huna would go around town and check the walls – falling walls were a major danger at the time. If the owner had money, he would make them fix the walls. If the owner could not – R Huna would pay for the repairs. Same thing with snow – if the owner is neglecting it, then tzibus should ask him nicely, maybe stop giving him aliyot. If the owner is out, is elderly, why not send some bochrim to clean it.
yankel > I want to live in EY free from secular coercion
> and that is my definite rightThis is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.
Hashem put you in a certain environment, which is more exciting than many generations of Yidden had. You can live in EY; you can learn without being afraid of Roman soldiers or commissars catching you; you have a healthy number of religious Jews around you – some agree with you on everything, others – argue on some; you can participate in the politics of that state. You would think that you’ll be thanking Hashem for this, go to work, fulfil your civil obligations, learn, teach others …
Maybe, there is here another modern phenomenon – presumed safety. As helicopter parents watch for their kids, expecting to control every challenge they get, you can’t live with a thought that someone in your community will be confronted with a minute challenge – talking to non-religious Jews, having to endure a woman in charge of your basic training, having to get up and leave from a meeting because of kol isha or anything else inappropriate.
I don’t think qwerty any my quotes differ that much. I presume R Miller was familiar with what MO stands for, as he spent a little time at Boston yeshiva where R Soloveitchik was the head, and R Miller’s FIL was also teaching. So, his bottom line is that MO are part of Klal Yisroel but he disagrees with them and considers them a danger to the community he leads.
R Miller has a lot of good insights in human psychology and a lot of his observations are useful to his followers. Interestingly, R Miller himself ventures into science and politics. His advise is “learn a lesson from Viet Nam; if you don’t – Hashem will send next lesson closer to home”. Possibly, he does not want everyone to learn those lessons, just to listen to him learning the lessons. Anyway, I wish students of R Miller listen to his message to them, rather than focus on the boundaries he created to protect them from bad influences.
PS As to quotes, I suggest going to either R Miller’s tapes or books. Recent popular excerpts published on and off-line may be taken out of context or selected with a bias.
regarding Shomer Shabbos minyanim – as Ishpurim is saying, there were lots of people who could not stand the pressure. Many Rabonim wanted to lead all kid of Jews, not only small groups who were fully observant at the time. That included Jews who were 2nd and more generation in America, and to whom some Eastern European rabbis were not able to relate.
I heard a following story about a man who was seen in a shul in 1960s – sitting in the back, in his coat, never interacting with anyone, never going to Torah reading – just davening quietly and leaving. The person who saw him was told his story: during great depression, he lost his job as an accountant. He needed to support his family and the only job he was able to find required working on shabbos. He did what he could to minimize i – he walked for 2 hours to the work place (in cold), waited until mtzei shabbos to go back, etc. After he eventually found a different job, he came back to shul, but he refused to accept aliyos – saying that he has a status of mechalel shabbos, and he stayed in this self-imposed cherem for decades.
rescue> There was no teenagers before the modern era?
right – children were growing up and becoming adults. Sometimes, they would have to work/aka becoming adults while still children.
Not my theory, I am not a historian … you do have Aristotle and others complaining about youth and their lack of experience and thus thinking they know everything, but I think it is about young age in general, not in a sense of a group of people whom we hold not responsible for their behavior.
Simcha, there was confusion; there were possibly events in previous 30 minutes that predisposed ICE to be on alert in general or for this particular person.
Bottom line – if a group of people start interfering and stopping armed ICE and while having a gun on you, 1 in 10 or 100 times something might happen.Yes, they were trigger happy, but in the situation that called for it. They are confronting an organized group, they have to expect the worst at every moment and act accordingly.
Note that in almost all cases when there are incidents as such, the person who gets shot usually has some history. Statistically, if ICE or police were out of control, much more of cases were about totally innocent – bystanders, peaceful demonstrators.
julius> we oppose the Zionist state
what does it mean?
you don’t want to live there? fine, I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
you want to live in EY but do not want to live in the Medinah? Go to PA, Gazah, Jordan, Syria and make your case for being a perfect dhimmi.
you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can vote for your shitah?
you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist – have much higher expectations from Medinah that you would from any other country where you would follow the laws.bja, I was trying to take your testimony at face value, even it is indirect (looks like you family and close to you do not join the army, but you do talk to others), but then you went into
> there are 3 times more non-religous draft evaders than chareidim draft evaders
Whatever your views are, and whatever the actual numbers are, this is totally irrelevant and even insulting. Those groups send large numbers of soldiers, boys and girls, for years and years, so some don’t for whatever reason. Your community (I presume from your words) do not send anyone, now a small number were sent draft notices and you point out that the other groups did not send all of theirs children?! Regardless of all other halachik and social considerations, I hope you can see the flaw of this argument. It may be that you simply are used to self-justifications that throw all possible arguments to defend your position.
re: stem – there is one biological fact that seems to be universal: males have more variability than females. That would mean that the average might be same or not, but there is more males with very low abilities and with very high abilities. So, when you are talking about best CS in the world, there will be way more males even if we resolve all social and family differences. At the same time, there are more men who are the most stupid and winning Darwin awards every year.
flatbush > Today even truck drivers,plumbers and lay people dress like rebbes. It’s a different world.
is it really a different world or just looks strange? are these shterimel-dressed people all behave like tzadikim? I don’t think middos moved at the same speed as the dress code. Same goes for learning. To quote someone “if we have 1000 times more people in yeshiva than during Rambam’s time – where are 1000 Rambams of our generation”?
from a quick search, seems that R Miller can answer the same question differently, depending maybe on the context:
1) from a secondary source that may be too selective in their quotes:
– What’s wrong with being Modern Orthodox?
– If Modern Orthodox means that you are going to send your daughters to college and your children won’t go into yeshivos to learn how to become talmidei chachomim, so you’re not Orthodox. Because ושננתם לבניך means ודברת בם בשבתך בביתך ובלכתך בדרך ובשכבך ובקומך. That’s Orthodox. So you see that big requirements are necessary to be Orthodox; it requires that your children should be bnei Torah.[AAQ: he is making a hashkafic point here as this can not be taken literally – as most MO (yes, I am using true scotsman approach here) teach children Torah, but historically we had Amei Haaretz who were Orthodox, although this does not work well in our times]
2) this seems to be authentic from a tape:
A: Absolutely, the Modern Orthodox are our brothers. Absolutely! If a Jew is a שומר מצוות, he tries to keep the mitzvos, then even thought he doesn’t exactly do everything the way we do it, he’s still a brother. If he doesn’t do עבירות, if he’s a שומר מצוות, I don’t care what kind of yarmulke he wears. If he wears a knitted yarmulka or if he wears something else, he’s still my brother. A person who keeps טהרת המשפחה, family purity, he eats kosher, he sends his children to Yeshiva and not public school, he’s a shomer Shabbos, he has mezuzahs on his doors – a person like that is our brother, and don’t make any mistake about it.Now, of course, that doesn’t mean that he has to be your brother and that you’ll move into the same house as him. It doesn’t mean that you should associate with him. That’s something else all together. You only associate with the best ones because you want to be the best. But when you see him on the street, you have a mitzvah of ואהבת לרעך כמוך – you have a mitzvah to love him. Whenever you see a Jew with a yarmulka, make sure to bless him. Say ברכם טהרם רחמם צדקתך תמיד גמלם.
according to some, “teenager” is a flawed modern concept. By halocha, a child is not responsible, his parents are. Then, at bar/bas mitzvah, he is. Teenager is a creature with partial responsibility and leads to finding excuses to evade responsibilities. There were no teenagers before modernity and the world went round and round. I am not sure I 100% subscribe to that, but there is something here.
according to others (R Orlowek), recently teeangers start at about 8 due to access to information, so treat them accordingly.
v32, I don’t think there is “Jew” (Yehudi) in the Torah (Chumash). It appears as a reference to all Jews (rather than someone from the tribe of Yehudah) in Megillah for Mordechai who os from Binyamin, this is where “Jew” starts signifying the whole nation due to 10 tribes disappearing and the remnants mixing up in exile.
Avraham is the first Hebrew “Ivri”, being different from others, passing a boundary/river.
Israel is mostly used as children of Yaakov as a symbol of a nation.
Not sure why it is “Eved ivri” / a Jewish slave, maybe he at the moment is not representing the nation, being a lowly slave.
I am sure there are books and books written about these.
In modern times, maskilim (secularists) tried using Hebrew/ Polish-Russian:Evrey instead of Jew/Zhid to denote national Jews v. religious. Thus, all kind of “Hebrew societies”, “hebrew schools” were created.
Don’t want to open yet another can of treif worms, but shechita differences are not that innocent. Whatever the kavanos were there that I am sure people can quote, the real-life effect of establishing a separate shechita was to re-direct meat taxes from the kahal to the alternative communities (candle tax was the 2nd significant source of kahal revenues).
common > [in fact he was the bal koreh]
Oy, now in addition to kashering all the dishes, you would need to re-read all the parshiyos!
nobody disagreed so far, so the feminist piece about Devorah teaching Torah v. going to war above – is from Ben Ish Chai.
yankel> with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder
you are absolutely right. Now, tzibur does not feel responsible for the actual events, so all kinds of opinions can be thrown around at no cost. Now, imagine posters with some of the stranger views here get elected to leadership roles… it is much easier to deal (conceptually) with non-religious Jews in charge (and even easier with non-Jews on charge) than when we will have “Torah” Jews in charge and if, H’V, bad opinions win the day. So, it is very beneficial to discuss these issues now! and responsibly.
YYA> The return of the dead ‘hostage’. Jewish lives were risked
This may be when malchut (of whatever type) has their own leeway, different from a beis din – there are considerations of international standing. deterrence, national unity and will … (see our previous silly example of chasing car thieves on bikes). The government might be justified to pursue certain goals based on those considerations, and they have way more information about the factors than is known to the public. I am not saying, they are right, but this is where you give them benefit of a doubt instead of undermining them with nitpicking. At worst case, this is an issue of different priorities for worthy goals, not pursuing bad goals.
YYA> That said, if EVERYONE will be Chareidi (or perhaps more accurately some sort of ‘critical mass’), so then most of the reasons for avoiding certain endeavors and occupations etc. will no longer be relevant. So it will be easier for those Chareidim so inclined to pursue at least some of the options you mentioned.
so, we agree on more and more … so, according to you, the negative attitudes towards these “non-charedi” (a loose term, I admit) lifestyles/occupations is that those niches are currently taken by inappropriate people and engagement in those can lead to mixed dancing … This is a very reasonable position and it is indeed open to gradual shifts and also to specific activities that can facilitate that – opening right institutions, etc. I’d appreciate if you can point me to some leadership statements that support your – so reasonable – views. And, logically, then you should not have any problems with anyone who is shomer shabbos and only differs from your position above in being less concerns about the issue of separation and are willing to attend college with non-religious, etc. Again, I wish these views were advertised more often, and if they are, I’ll be delighted to see.
I’d like to get some of the stuff the posters in this thread are using when posting.
great problem that can be solved with N-dimensional Pythagorean theorem, but the message goes beyond junior high-school: high-dimensional spaces are very sparse. That is why brute-force training of AI systems in high-dimensional spaces requires huge amount of data to fill in all those empty spaces
YYA, I mentioned “social contract” because you need it. Society that fights each other for benefits, is like a family that counts who took the garbage more times. This would not stand. And, as you see, it is very hard to convince others that their risk of life is balanced by someone else’s having children.
As a thought experiment, would you be happy with this policy that might work for both chilonim and charedim: those who have a boy and a girl can go to the army. Those who do not or not yet married are obligated in pru urvu and are exempt? To ensure they don’t play a system, their taxes increase every year until they fulfil the mitzva. This way, chilonim will have more children and charedim will be in the mostly charedi army.
3) is it not enough to do simple chesed?
well, chesed is, in part, measured by outcome, not just effort. Or, you can say learning engineering in order to build defense or make medical devices, or make your travel more comfortable – that time should also count as chesed. Simple math:
Reb A. 5 years training F/T + 10 years working producing (notionally) 10x time more chesed outcome
Reb B. 80 years doing simple chesed 50% of his dayReb A produces more chesed in less time.
And back to our source in Taanis – it brings example of simple chesed (giving out shovels for burials – I wonder whether snowstorms will also qualify?) that is great but inferior to learning and then a doctor that does medicine with mitzvos and chesed – that is 7x “better” than Abaye. I suspect this has something to do with this combination of professional engagement and his middos. Otherwise, Abaye would easily replicate what the doctor did.
PS and the professional also earns more money – not only for tzedoka in general but also for chesed to his wife (less work, less worries, more babysitters) to his children (giving them better Torah and professional education)
2) cost
I am currently reading a book that quotes an American lady who wanted to become a dentist while in shidduchim for a talmid chochom. A charedi, anti or non-Z Israeli Ruv tells her that while this is not a usual path, she should be able to do that. And she did. And I heard from others who got OK for various professions from their RY who were publicly against college. When I and my friend – we were both in our 20s and similar in biographies met our Lakewood Teacher, he strongly suggested to my friend (who had a profession and was doing some dead-end jobs) R Auerbach was OK with R Lau privately preparing for bagrut while in his non-college yeshiva and even was disappointed that R Lau was not interested in sciences he was studying. So, that’s a proof that this is OK for some and the question is – how far do we need to go with this approach.So, on cost, I think it is quote possible to get many professions without engaging in campus life and spending 10s of years in residency. Lots of “yeshivish” bochrim do this in NY – most in somewhat low-quality online or offline colleges (quality is low probably because high schools did noy prepare most students). Various medical specialties like physical therapy, same for engineering and computer science.
Maybe you need to balance over benefits, in addition to chesed: stable income that can enable you to work fleixble, low hours, sometimes even from home, provide for family without relying on questionable or subsidized daycare …
YYA,
I am glad we agree on almost anything, except a couple of technical points:
1) do we need to have observant doctors/engineers or could we just rely on goyim and secularists
2) would it be a high ruchani price/bitul zman for doing that
3) we can do great chesed with our bare hands, why do I need specialized trainingOn (1), you might use “charedi”, instead of “observant”, but this would be unfair – as the “charedi” might already mean the answer you prefer.
One line of answers is in RYBS yiddish article after YU created a medical school and people were up in arms – we wanted a rabbinical school, why is it expanding to medicine. The (bedieved, in the author’s words) answer was that Jews always had problems with non-religious doctors and pharmacists who were not sensitive to Jewish issues. This is not very persuasive, I think, and does not extend to other jobs, though – Iron dome seems not to need to know where techum shabbat is. So, maybe we need hatzolah/gynecologists/psychologists, but not dermatologists. But take this to the extreme – imagine all currently observant Jews become charedi, with all learning and only marginal presence of chaverei and chaveros knesset in the society. Would this be healthy? probably not. If so, then you are explicitly relying on non-charedi observant Yidden to take care of our role in society [I am inverting here your clever argument about charedi demographic contribution]. This is great – as long as we all acknowledge each other’s contribution. But if your community looks down on others [possibly because of self-preservation necessity], then this is not working.spy goes from the center keeping 180 degrees from the sniper as long as possible and when their angular speeds equal, then goes straight to the shore.
it works out even if he uses value of pi computed in the gemora.of course, this problem is as fake as most of your posts – a sniper who can’t shoot from a distance at a spy that hangs out openly in the middle of the lake.
And according to Zenon – the spy will never reach the shore, of course.
to answer my own question: subtraction.
Avraham asks Hashem what if there will be 5 lacking to 50, and Hashem tells him that the number will be 45. Avraham gets the idea and starts counting correctly after that.
21, and gemini solved that too!
ˣ²⁻¹¹ˣ⁺³⁰ = 0
or
x² – 5x + 5 = 1
or
x² – 5x + 5 = -1 and x^2 – 11x + 30 is evenqwerty> You seem to think that I became anti-Chabad because of Rabbi
not just for you, but gone are the days when people listened to a local rebbe and formed corresponding opinions. Now, everybody is free to form their opinion off the nets and then select a Rabbi to follow – that happen to 100% agree with the person’s opinions.
girls, listen up – if you marry a non-smoker and he starts smoking, everyone will blame you for that.
But if you marry a smoker and he stops, everyone will think it is your influence. so, only upside here.simcha> there is no excuse for that murder
There were probably a 100 of times of already where ICE confronted people obstructing their activities. Small number of those ended tragically.
An outlier event is always a combination of weird factors. Probably an officer who found and took away a gun announced “a gun”, and ther other officer understood that the person is holding the gun, and something moved … unfortunately, putting yourself in this situation and having a gun on you at the same time is a risky business.a good point. social contract requires agreement of all sides – so, go find chilonim who would agree with you, and then do your part.
Gadol,
I think some people need to feel frummer abd the best way to achieve that feeling is by rejecting something that simple yidden eat.YYA> Which is the core of Zionism. The attitude that “Jews were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army yada yada.”
absolutely, but we also should not go to another extreme and denigrate something just because anti-religious people started it. If you find common positions with Israelis who are not charedim but are observant, or traditional, or even non-religious but not anti-religious, then those remaining anti-religious attitudes will be marginalized. These are not 1950s any more.
YYA> I never heard anything remotely close to that expressed by my Roshei Yeshiva. …
RY tried to explain why the other speaker allowed himself quote 1/3 of the gemorah, he definitely does not hold by not learning nezikin – and that is why I asked him. I probably posted this a couple of years ago – there was a speaker talking about halochos in business, with listeners charedi baalei batim, not T’Ch like at the talk we are discussing. And he was very strict on kashrus and yichud but very meikel on business ethics. I did not feel like starting an argument, so I contemplated getting up and leaving in a way that people understand why I did this. Here, the RY above, sitting in the first row, started shouting “genevah, genevah” …. When I asked the speaker later in private – his take was that yichud and such can lead to irreversible tragedies, comparing with limited damage from nezikin [I am not commenting]
> [speaker] since the topic at hand was Brachos, so he stayed on topic.
Right, this is why I am asking people how much big a deal it is. I still think it is a sign that attitudes are unbalanced. And also my observation that none of the T’Ch in the room – and their like 20-30 very learned people there – paid any attention. I looked at everyone.
YYA> Missile defense and brain surgery etc. are not the REASON we are here in this world.
How do you explain pages of Gemorah explaining medical cures and safe travel instructions? Was it to provide medical parnosah to students or because the rabonim genuinely cared for their health? about being careful how you dispose glass pieces? about tzadik (or tzadekes?) that provide shovels for funerals? [yes, it says that learning gets bigger zechut].
Do you think developing missile defense or brain surgery are less of a chesed? Just try to disassociate this from zionism or secularism of colleges and look at the issue itself.
YYA> ‘Torah and Mitzvos’ it includes every aspect of Yiddishkeit, including the ‘fifth Shulchan Aruch’ and certainly including Middos and בין אדם לחברו
exactly, I did not doubt that you hold by this.
> just ‘something we need to do to in order to function,
I think I know where you are going, but I don’t fully agree, maybe needs to be re-phrased. Hashem created all these interesting things around us – surely, not for us to ignore, but to apply our Torah approach to the world. While I agree with your “accusation” that I am repeating my own opinion on Charedism, I found a similar view in R Soloveitchik in 1950s: ,if we claim to have knowledge of the world from Hashem, then we should not be hiding in the caves, but rather engage with the world. I don’t think this view negates the value of Charedi approach in providing a “safe space” for myriads of Yidden to be saved from modern dangers. My only concern is that the system created for survival does not substitute for Judaism. There is only one Am Yistoel with one Torah and we can’t get it wrong.
> **any** exposure to frum Yidden makes a non-frum Jew NOT a tinok shenishba.
This would clearly be different depending on circumstances and times. It is one thing when someone is captured by some tribesmen, is illiterate, and then being brought to the functioning Jewish community. It would be different if someone is exposed to various philosophies (whether medieval Christianity or Islam or any combination of modern -isms) and is also then is exposed to Judaism that has multiple non-kosher branches plus kosher variations that sometimes call other variations treif.
Here is a frum feminist for you:
Devorah says that her going with Barak to a battle will be an insult to him. Why? Because Devorah was teaching Torah and, thus, as we all know, was exempt from mitzvos unless there was no one else to perform them. Thus, if she is seen going with Barak it is clear that she is not there to support, but she is doing it because the battle will not be won without her. And that is why she is singing the song, to show that she is there for a reason, and did not abandon her Torah learning for no reason. I’ll leave kol isha for another time.YYA, maybe directly related – Bava Kamma when discussing how to safely discard pieces of glass mentions 3 ways of becoming a chassid – nezikin, avos, brochos. So, I am listening to a visiting T’Ch discussing brochos, saying, as motivation: “as Gemora says you can become a chossid by learning brochos”.
There are like 30 yeshivishe T’Ch sitting in the room, all smiling and nodding. I was surprised not just by the partial gemora, but that nobody raised an eye and gave a thought about it. I was not sure whether my concern was appropriate – after all, this was not part of a halachik discourse, but a motivational piece and the discourse was about brochos. I did not want to embarrass the Rav in public and did not get a chance to ask in private, but I asked another senior yeshivishe rov. He understood my question and said – if you don’t know brochos and kashrus, you are not a Yid, but middos and nezikin not so … [of course, gemorah does not mean basic knowledge, but chasidut]. But I think this was an honest admission that the change of focus is due to desire keep students “Jewish”.I am actually stuck at this topic. I often go to R Soloveitchik’s writing for such haskafik issues, and I just saw in his hesped for a Torah Vadaas Rosh yeshiva who was a prominent chabadnik, he says that chassidus, and chabad especially, focus on teaching people saying brochos with right attitude – and also quotes same gemora in part….
YYA> Torah and Mitzvos are the ONLY real תכלית החיים
Thanks for the clarification. You seem to be decoupling mitzvos from real life. So, giving maaser is a mitzva, but spending time protecting fellow Yidden is not? I understand from, for example, Ramban’s naval b’rshus Torah is that you can apply your mitzva approach to other areas that are not necessarily defined explicitly, at least in bein adam l’havero. And all gemoras and sifrei mussar, are you dsicarding them all also? In truth, I don’t think you personally hold by that, but I agree that this became a “party line”. It is clear why – because the anti-religious groups are highlighting and perverting those values and you want to oppose the chazerim.
makes sense, who wants to debate in front of a bunch of goyim. Why did you even signed up for the site that has rov goyim? You do realize that if you lose your train of thought here, nobody is going to return it to you?!
YYA, I see. I think you are posing this false choice between bitachon and having an Army – maybe based on all the problems you describe with IDF. I am not certain to what degree these problems present themselves but I am sure they are there. So, I understand your emotional attitude.
I am only pointing out that a country requires an army, as much as it requires a police force and a tax authority, as much as a person requires a doctor and a hairdresser. You are not allowed to live in a city without a doctor. Similarly, it will be madness to live in a country without an army.
Doctors are often, and were often, not religious. There were also great doctors like in Taanis. “You go to the war with the army you have” (tm Rumsfeld). Jews had to serve in many armies in the world that are way worse than IDF. Yet, it is very zionist of you to demand more from a Jewish army than the Czar’s army, and I do not disagree.
But you do demonstrate that zionists were right in one aspect – you argue from the fact that Jews did not have an army for a long time. But were we ever in a situation where it was practical to have an army? There was, for example, a Jewish state in Yemen at some point – do you think it did not have an army? Take Khazar – did Kuzari advise him to discharge his army? when did we join Quakers and I missed that?
yankel, I did not (yet) learn vayoel moshe, but when under shmad, we don’t change even minor things, right? Just playing shvuos advocate.
well, maybe kahal can hire their own nurses who graduated Touro and Landers.
Are eating and drinking bad because there are so many gluttons and drunkards? Then, how come we have a brocha before and after? And it is not just an aveirah to enjoy the food you said brocha on.
As DoMoshe suggests, should you not have nahas when you put a tefilin? your child? grandchild? greatgrandchild? an Yid you found in Times Square?
Should you just ignore that you are part of a success masorah and taught someone else?What if you or your child became a brain surgeon? Developed Iron Dome? Used Iron Dome to protect batei midarshim from reshayim?
DaMoshe> Maybe the reason they push having pride in it is so that people will be more likely to serve in the IDF?
but also people who suggest ignoring all achievements have motivation that someone, H’V, will go serve in IDF?
for a change, a Torah question: which arithmetic operation is meduaraita?
because they are republican or chicken hawks?