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yankel> emrei emet talking to REW
I am not questioning R Elchonon’s mailos at all.
Avi> The Baal haTanya also took this position (he also held that it is bittul Torah of the rav) and Rav Lichtenstein has an essay, availavle online, he unauthorized translation is called “If There Is No ‘Da’at,’ How Can We Have Leadership?” The Hebrew original is אם אין דעת, מנהיגות מניין.
First, thanks for the reference to the essay. Very thought provoking. Not sure what Alter Rebbe has to do with the topic, but he took an extreme political pro-Russian position during Napoleonic wars – contrary to almost all other misnagdim and chassidim, and he passed away while running away from Napoleon. The reasons being a mixture of seeing a danger of haskalah (as if it was possible to escape it, but delaying could have helped) and real-politik – as Chabad was further in Russia than most other groups, so presumed that his chasidim will be under the czar after the war anywas, so it is better to cooperate.
Avi > Rav Soloveichik did not take a position on demonstrations. When asked, he told questioners to ask a Kremlinologist. In general, his position was that rabbanim should not answer questions that are the realm of secular experts.
Not a contradiction here. My source is memoirs by one of the students involved. They first asked R Feinstein, R Tetz, Lubavitcher Rebbe – they all answered negatively from their belief that (1) afraid that their quiet activities for soviet Jews will be disrupted (2) that students are putting their lives in danger from Soviet agents (we are talking 1960s!). When they approached R Soloveitchik, he indeed followed the approach you described – he asked his trusted contacts in Israeli government and they also suggested negative. So, batting 0:4 in daas Toirah, students started what they started. Later on, this student while driving R Soloveitchik casually asked him – we are doing things you did not approve of, but you did not reprimind us. Rav responded: I was mislead. I asked Israelis “what is best for Soviet Jews” and they responded based on what is based for them (presumably, before 1967, when Israel tried to re-establish better relations with USSR). Halakha of pikuach nefesh is – you do what is best for the person in danger, not for others.
yankel> where is sefer ikarim ‘lenient’ about mistakes in core beliefs ?
as I said, I saw it in a secondary source. It has something to do with how to relate to people who stumbled in some major philosophical issues – as was typical at his times. To illustrate the times: R Albo participated in an official debate with a converted Jew … that convert used to be a rav and his teacher before he converted … and who previously participated on the Jewish side in a similar debate against a previous convert …
somejew > The Steipler says that he leans to say that voting is a “mitzvuh rabbuh” and not (technically) usser, yet nonetheless there is vald place for kanoyus like NK (and they should continue not voting and disregard his “mitzvuh rabbuh”).
I was reading the letter slightly different. Not sure, whether one – or both – of us is trying to put our own meaning into subtle words of Steipler. Presumably, the recipient of the letter knew how to understand these words. But my reading is that Steipler is not “leaning” but rather strongly says that it is the right thing to do and opposition is mistaken, even if well meaning. Yes, he sort of says, I do not want you to change your position, but he does not say explicitly – “I am ok with you not voting”. I am reading this as a subtle tochacha (we should all learn!) – yes, I respect your position, but if you respect my arguments, you will have to go and vote. The last paragraph might be the minimal ask – even if you will not be able to vote yourself, at least stop spreading loshon horoh that might prevent others from voting. Again, said subtly, but pretty direct if translated from loshon Steipler into loshon CR.
Rocky > Mishpacha claims that Rav Elyashiv did not hear their side of the story before announcing a ban. No gadol would do such a thing.
Rocky, I do not read either of Mishpohos, but I listened to a detailed lecture of R Gershon Kamenetsky Z’L detailing his interactions with R Elyashiv about R Gershon’s book about his father – and the only conclusion is that R Eliyashiv did in that case (maybe when he was elderly and the issue was time sensitive) relied on people he trusted. At this point, there are several non-banned respected books that quote R Gershon’s book (that contains high quality research) in length and acknowledge his contribution.
yankel > [undisputed list of Rabonim who respected R Kook] .. rav kook was controversial – yes
katan> But all of that doesn’t change what the gedolim held of him, as mentioned above. The Chazon Ish also banned the sale of Rabbi Kook’s books, which included at least Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, if not also the others.you guys repeat your positions as if they are compete with each other – they do not! You need to come to some joint conclusion! Can we agree that R Kook was controversial and that some approved of him and some did not? What else can be said here?
Avram > He’s not talking about ads that are blocked by ad blocking software…
You may be right here. While it is hard to pin-point his exact issues and legit internet needs, openDNS is a good free solution for the computer – you can just whitelist the sites you need.
I thought, openDNS would not work on a cellular network, but gemini tells me it is possible. Maybe someone can investigate this:
You can use OpenDNS on a cellular network by installing a DNS changer app on Android or using the “Private DNS” setting on iOS and Android devices that support it. While some cellular carriers might block the standard OpenDNS servers, a DNS changer app or using a paid service like Cisco Umbrella Prosumer can override this and route your device’s DNS requests to OpenDNS or another provider.Avram> one should not sacrifice his children.
Hard to argue about that, as there is a posuk about it! But we were not talking about children online, we were talking about an adult. I hope you are not suspecting him of watching videos enticing moloch practices!
Got NY public library (virtually), voter registration info is on the front page – until Oct 25.
When you argue how NK behaved during “Steipler lifetime”, you need to see – what year was the letter written? Steipler was writing about elections early on – I see one in 1955.
Seemingly Steipler wrote way more about elections than just this one letter. Maybe someone could look up more on his thinking?
here is what I see in secondary sources:
Kreinah D’Igresa letter 739: “I don’t understand the position of the Satmar Rebbe, though I agree with all that was written in his book…nonetheless the people have returned, it is a fact that the people have come back, it is now a reality and therefore whether it was done correctly doesn’t matter, thus now one must vote in order to ensure the safety of Klal Yisrael.
…
all throughout Jewish history Jews were part of the Gentile governments in Europe and of course if one could be in a goyish government he can be in the Jewish government, but nonetheless says the Steipler that one must be very careful that being part of parliament or government is not about getting money, even for the Jews, rather it is about upholding Jewish law.Chaim, also, use your home computer to take some advanced classes and get a better paying job.
Chaim,
buying used phones is smart. Same w/ computers – a modern computer can really work for many years if you are not kicking it too much.are you an uber driver or something like that? For many sedentary occupations, a computer would be enough. If you do need a device, maybe make it non-private. for example, when you come home, put into a charger in the living room and let everyone in the family use it while you are in shul or learning.
This should give you some lack of privacy – especially if you have savvy teens in the house. Or even you can plug it at home via usb as a drive to the home computer so that everyone can ready your phone drive from the computer when you are at home.ZSK, I don’t think you can write off REW on disinformation. It is one thing when we are talking, say, elderly R Eliyashev being mis-informed about one book by R Gershon Kamenetsky. Maybe, maybe, you can have a similar excuse for R Soloveitchik on the question of demonstration for Soviet Jews (“mislead” by Israeli gov that it is better to be quiet) – yes, this is an issue of great public importance, but not the main focus for American Jews at a time (and RJBS writes in other places “I am not a politician or from a family of politicians”) but here REW addresses, consistently, over the years, the issue discussed by the Jewish public. It was on him to get the right information before making his public statements.
Yankel, I was reading ch ch letters of 1920s until early 30s, and didn’t find any negative statements on zionizm, even as his main topic is decline of observance. So it is just several years difference. Speculating: maybe ch ch objected and thus REW published only after his petirah? I didn’t know about RCHO involvement, thanks. Is this from independent sources or from REW chasidim?
There seems to be a difference of opinion on serious errors even in core beliefs. Rambam considering any such error fatal, while sefer haikkarim allowing for mistakes. Note that the latter lived at the time of mass confusion and conversion in Spain and tried to bring people back.
yankel > As an outsider, I think many of us view every habadi as both a Mikdash & a Madhouse.
this is not new. R Soloveitchik writes in 1950s that he respects Alter Rebbe’s teaching, finds published chabad magazines illiterate, and then is at awe at their reaching out to small pockets of assimilated Jews.
> ANYTHING that is not accurate to Torah is by definition kefira.
So, masheches horayos talks about sanhedrin that did kefirah? News to me and presumably to the tannaim and amoraim also.
yankel> there is no indication whatsoever to be taken from the fact that hafets hayim approved of rav kook going into the rabinate
even if historically correct ,agree, approval at early times is not necessarily an agreement on later actions. Still, we seem to have established here that CC and REW had different views, or at least public views at the overlapping times. So, if you want to follow REW, you need to explain why you are not satisfied with following CC.
Avi K > As for REW having a radically different opinion, the Gemara has many examples of chachamim who disagreed with their rabbanim
I have no problems with REW holding his own opinion. But some here see him as a authority, and especially as a student of CC. So, it seems that in this aspect it was REW who disagreed with his teacher.
metoo > if the steipler said not to publicize the letter, he probably had a good reason (or reasons) for saying so. Could it be that his high praise for NK was one of them?
this sounds plausible. The arguments in the letter seem to be designed specifically for NK listeners. It does not mean that Steipler agrees with them, he is simply saying “even if you hold these views” …
yankel> not sure why you keep on [deliberately ?] ignoring the multitudes who were forced away from religion by the medina ?
wrong thread? I am discussing Steipler’s letter and issues he is raising.
In Michal’s view, David danced inappropriately in front of bnos yisroel … he should have refused the procession until all the ladies were removed from the celebration?!
yankel > including securing the Cave of the Patriarchs and its surroundings… with female Border Police officers,
A good, and rather extreme, example. I am reminded here that Yosef was able to withstand his guard duty in the presence of a female – by recalling the face of his father. I would think anyone with minimal religious sensitivity should be able to do the same right near the maaras hamachpelah! Probably those female officers would do the same…
I am not making light of the situation. I think this is an unfortunate situation but unlikely to ruin yungelait when this happens once – and then document and complain, and go to the knesset and demand that this should stop. And say, fix X, Y, and Z instead of “we will not serve”.
> CC was actually uncertain about publishing his one and only anti Zionist letter which opposed the claim Zionists then made (they no longer do) that by living in EY and speaking you can be a good Jew without keeping Torah.
smerel, thanks for answering my question – that CC was very limited in his public arguments against Z. I had this impression from reading his correspondence and finding arguments against every other group, but it is hard to prove a negative. The question then on REW – how could he have such a drastically different position? Was there any discussion between REW and CC? Did REW ask? Did CC respond to what REW was saying and writing?
smerel, R Greineman writes as if he saw this first hand, not from R Poupko and it seems from the text that he was writing with CC approval. I understand his crying is not because of Balfour, or a possible misuse of Balfour, but that people are satisfied with such a small step towards the geulah.
If I dare to add, CC seems not to be familiar with the chinese saying – a journey of a thousand li begins with a single step.
Avi> The religious ruined it by not heeding Rav Kook’s call
Agree, but you are mindlessly repeating the lashon hara terms – as if followers of R Kook were not “religious”. As somejew showed, it is asur to speak such loshon hora.
chaim > second on my personal devices I’d love to get a filter but can’t afford a few hundred dollars for my devices
if you limit yourself to a computer and sell “devices” (note the shoresh – “vices”!) and stop paying their monthly fees – you can then afford paying for the filter. Oh, wait, you will not even need them! even more left for tzedokah. Make that first donation in my name.
lakewood > What happened when it’s 2 am and no one else is up in your house
this is not a problem in my house! If it is in yours, just wait until your kids are teens.
the simple solution is time-based controls. And give your spouse/parents/children teamviewer access – that is have them logged into your computer remotely. If you are worrying about night shift, have also a shomer in EY or in China.
There are also tools that do random snapshots of the screen (or you can program this capability yourself), making them available to your shomer/shomeret.
we have established rules of yerusha – going up level to tati, then zeide, etc. Hope the yerush is not a minsagid or a satmar.
yankel, thanks for this hasam sofer! and right on point!
interesting in Steipler’s analysis is that being enthusiastic about medina is wrong because in recent generations goyim do not interfere with our observance.
I am not sure when this was written, maybe in 1970s? “generations” would include at least two, that would be like 40 years. Surely, Steipler remembered WW2 …. even at that time, Israel just absorbed Sephardim coming from unfriendly goyim and Soviet Jews were still behind the iron curtain. I don’t think that it is feasible that Steipler considered Khomenii or Brezhnev better than Ben Gurion. Furthermore, at about that time or slightly later – Israel got Menachem Begin as PM, changing the calculus again. Surely, Steipler understood the political trends at his times!
Maybe the way to explain these inconsistencies is to look at the purpose of the letter – he is writing to anti-Z kaonyim, trying to bring them to accept Israeli politics. Thus, he is going out of the way to flatter them, acknowledged their concerns, and provides just minimal support to the Zionists – just enough to accept elections. Prohibiting lashon hara against religious zionists really makes further anti-Z vile propaganda impossible. Of course, we see that not everyone accepts the words of the chacham.
somejew, thanks for brining this interesting quote. I am confused how you are interpreting it:
> He is explicitly that claims of אתחלתא דגאולה are FALSE, they are not compatible with Torah. That means that the belief is kefira in the (Torah) Truth.all these seem to be your words. Steipler says simply אינו אלא טועה – a mistake. Where is kefira comes from?
Also, he is explicit that you cannot say lashon hara about them. I hope you kept this psak in mind in your last 1000 posts.
somejew > This is all the same for all types of heretical movements that we suffer from, such as Reform or Sha”tz or MO.
I think you have a point that an individual might really not subscribe to the movement theology and be judged on their own. this still does not answer yankel’s questions that RL and MO witnesses and rabbis are usually treated with neemanut that reform does not.
coffee > he’ll be told he’s on the wrong side of the mechitzah and then is directed to the other side!
indeed, and every shul has kanoyim who can be relied to tell him that, after they are done correcting leining. Just make sure mehitza is bullet-proof.
third version of the same story from the anti-zionist POV. Seems like everyone agrees on the words Chofetz Chaim said, but interprets them somewhat differently.
footnotes of Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Parshas Bo:
In the winter of 5678 (1917-1918) when they told the Chofetz Chaim about the simcha that had spread in Jewish homes because of the Balfour Declaration, the Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “What is the point of this simcha? Hakadosh Baruch Hu promised us, ‘And you shall spread out west and east and north and south’ – here is a sure promisory note, which Hakadosh Baruch Hu will pay up when the time comes. Now some people come and admit to a small part of Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s promisory note, and everyone is happy about this declaration, and they see it as a sort of redemption. They are satisfied with a little… they don’t wait for more… Oy, what has become of us…” and he continued crying.
The Chofetz Chaim’s son, Reb Leib, used to relate: “When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption. At that time he quoted the comment of the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh on the verse, ‘a tribe will arise from Israel’ (Bamidbar 24:17). But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.”
A little different interpretation of seemingly same lines in another secondary source:
His son, Reb Leib, used to tell over that when the English announced the Balfour Declaration regarding the Jewish return to the Land of Israel, the Chofetz Chaim saw in this a sign from above that Heaven was preparing the Geula. However, he said that he was afraid that the secularists might ruin it, chas v’shalom. Many times in the past the time was ripe, but the people in the generation ruined it.Once the Chofetz Chaim was heard expressing his aggravation regarding the leftist factions in Eretz Yisroel. “Is it possible that anything good can come from these people? How can the Shechina come down and rest on something they established?” When he was shown a newspaper where one of their journalists wrote that it’s possible to be a good Jew without the Torah, the Chofetz Chaim wrote a long rebuttal to be published all over. “The existence of Yisroel depends upon the Torah, not on a country or a language! If we don’t keep the Torah the medina and the language won’t save us!” (Chofetz Chaim on the Torah, Parshas Bo)
here are some interestingquotes from a site that defends shevuos and starts with “Zionism was the most successful violation of the oaths in our history, but it wasn’t the first. I”
The Chofetz Chaim says that there is one kind of war that is permitted even during exile: a war against a decree of shmad, a decree made by a government that forces Jews to give up their Torah observance. The classic case of a war against a decree of shmad was the Maccabean revolt, he says. This war took place during the Temple era; nevertheless the Chofetz Chaim said that such a war would be permitted even today, when the oaths are in force, against an empire that outlaws the Torah, such as Communist Russia. (Recorded by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman in his article “Omer Ani Maasai Lamelech” section 9.)
When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption… But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.” (Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah p. 101) In any case the Chofetz Chaim never said that it was permitted to found a Jewish state. Similar, the Ohr Somayach was quoted as having written a letter in support of immigration under the Mandate, stating that immigration did not violate the oaths. He never said that conquest of the land would not violate them.
R Berl Wein
The son of the Chofetz Chaim ,.. writes in his memoirs that his father donned his Shabbat clothing upon hearing the news and stated that “the matter (of Jewish redemption) has now begun and that we should be careful not to ruin this opportunity.”I think this is from same notes
One time, they read him an article from a newspaper, in which one of the ‘maskilim’ expressed his hope that in the end Eretz Yisrael would be an independant country like Bulgaria, which was established on the ruins of Turkey. The Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “Does this matter make sense? We are suffering for one thousand eight hundred years, our blood flows like water, we increase our prayers and supplications for a respite from the difficulties of the exile, and here they satisfy themselves with only a small amount? They have completely forgotten about the roles our prophets set out for us, and the promises of our holy Torah.”
…
One time we heard how the Chofetz Chaim expressed his anguish about the leftists in Eretz Yisrael, “Could it be that something good will come out of the left, that the Divine Presence will rest on their actions?”
….
It is a grave mistake that these people make, to think that the Torah and mitzvos are secondary matters and are unconnected to the building of the land. Remember the words of the Torah (Vayikra 18:21), “That the land not vomit you out when you contaminate it, as it vomited out the nations before you.” Eretz Yisrael is the palace of the king, one who sins there sins a great sin, and the danger [that results from sin] is much greater there!The son of the Chofetz Chaim, Harav R’ Leib zt’l, would tell over that when the British announced the Balfour declaration in regards to Eretz Yisrael, the Chofetz Chaim saw in this a type of אתערותא דלעילא (awakening from above) in regards to the redemption, and he spoke then of the Ohr Hachaim on the verse “וקם שבט בישראל” – “and a rod shall rise in Israel.” [There the Ohr Hachaim speaks about the two possibilities in regards to the redemption. It can come miraculously, if the Jewish people merit it, or it can come in a natural way, if they do not. This part of the passuk refers to the redemption coming in a natural way in the merit of the tzaddikim of the Jewish people, who are referred to as Yisrael.] He said, however, that he was worried that the ‘frei’ would destroy it [as a result of their bad deeds], heaven forbid. He would also say that were many times in the past that had been opportunities lost for the redemption as a result of the destructive deeds of the generation.
Yankel, thanks for the idea to look at Balfour declaration for Chofetz Chaim. Here is what I am finding:
Rav Shmuel Greineman, footnotes to Chofetz Chaim divrei Torah that he published (parasha bo)
ארץ זבת חלב ודבש שמות” י״ג:ה׳” “A land of milk and honey”
Chofetz Chaim: The soul certainly can not survive without a body, and all the commandments that are dependant on The Land can not be fulfilled without Eretz Yisrael. Our nation can not last in exile, and it is forbidden for us to remain here, nor to go elsewhere to be involved in business. Here they attempt to catch us and accuse us, nevertheless we live and survive, if but in difficulty. But Eretz Yisrael without Torah is nothing but a clump of earth, a body without a soul. ..
Note:
The Chofetz Chaim never let his mind wander from the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisrael.I remember, in the winter of 5678 (1918), when the Chofetz Chaim was told about the tremendous joy that spread throughout Jewish homes in reponse to the Balfour declaration. The Chofetz Chaim burst out crying, and said, “What does joy accomplish? Hashem promised us that we would ‘burst forth westward, eastward, northward, and southward.’ This is a guaranteed document that Hashem will pay up in its appointed time.
“Now people have come and only admit to a small part of Hashem’s document, and everyone is getting excited as if the redemption has almost arrived!
“People are ready to be satisfied with a small amount… They don’t expect more… Woe unto us!” And he continued to cry.xCTL > I don’t care to daven next to a gun.
we just had the tragic event in UK … But where does it end then? I may be uncomfortable to daven near a lawyer who might have lied and defended reshayim; or near a mamdani supporter or near a businessman who might be cheating on taxes.
> He himself has zero Jewish descendants
his family was indeed tragic. He had 3 Jewish children, so he was yotze on pru urvu. Two children died young from overdoes/shooting themselves. Third was killed in the nazi camp. The grandson eventually killed himself after the war.
HaKatan > You aren’t being specific: Jews who specifically were looking to “integrate” into secular culture were rejected from doing so. Jews continuing to live as Jews as did their fathers and grandfathers and all the way back, however, were doing just fine. … his Plan A was conversion.
Yes, of course – Hertzl, like many non-religious Jews at the time – hoped to become equal citizens and Dreyfus affair showed him that this is not attainable through assimilation. What I am saying – for people like that, following Zionists to EY was a way better path than alternatives that existed at the time – conversion, communism, german nationalism. That was the main impact of Zionism on Jewish population. In no way I am supporting all the other narushkeit.
lakewood > In a public setting like a library
you can have a public setting at home – have a screen facing the rest of the family or your friends or even a window open to public domain.
haimy > every time you go shopping online, there will be photos of inappropriately dressed women displayed.
1. there are adblocks for browsers that filter out ads
2. ads are usually tuned to your history of browsing, search, and clicks on ads. It is unfair in a sense that if you did it once or some time ago, the ads will be pursuing you for some time until it becomes clear you are not buying it. Aveira goreret aveirah.I want to know Chofetz Chaim’s opinion, please.
HaKatan, please could you give me some quotes from Chofetz Chaim. I looked them up and could not find any so far.
YS, I don’t know of numbers but from the news, an armed congregant does not prevent first several victims from being hurt, but prevents mass casualties. Often, the assailant flees when meeting resistance. I am not pushing forcing reluctant people to carry, but CTLs intolerance to someone else who is ready to protect him is really silly.
HaKatan, right, Herzl was a thoroughly assimilated Jew who realized, to his shock, that Jews are hated and started looking for ways out. Many people like him chose conversion, others chose to fight their governments in a hope that revolutions will bring equality among other benefits. All of those people are not part of Jewish nation anymore. Those who among all -isms chose zionisms (thanks, in part, to Herzl) have their grandchildren Jewish and maybe even observant.