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somejew > “even if these men were wholehearted with Hashem and His Torah , and even if there were reason to think they could achieve their goal, we are forbidden to listen to them in this matter: to bring about our redemption through our own power.” … The Rebbe list his sources and explains its application to the situation.
I agree that this part of his argument stands better than others. Still, are you not shocked by the number of assumptions in this letter that turned out different? Does it not make you think that the issue is complicated and you need to be careful with conclusions?
But, strictly speaking about current matzav, as others are calling here – we are not deciding now whether to go against Arab armies into EY. We currently have several millions of Jews in EY, including multitudes of religious ones, yeshivos and chesed organizations all over the place – are 3 shevuos saying anything about this? any classical commentator discussing this b’dieved situation? Should we apologize and return to the shtetlach in Ukraine? Sephardim going back to Syria and Morocco?
yankel berel> I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.
This seems to be an often used device and is, no doubt, often needed. What are parameters for such statements? And if some of it is allowed as haraas hashaah, how do we evaluate a lot of the emergency Torah of the last 100+ years of “emergency” and make sure we do not lose the emes to emergency?
I think this letter is a good contribution to the discussion. We can see that certain statements and predictions came up differently in history. Clearly shows that even big talmidei chachamim do not always see what will happen. In this case, the letter is well written and lists reasons and assumptions, so it is possible to see the parts that need re-evaluation.
Avram > asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
Not suggesting that. I don’t know how often the false calls are. From the press, it seems that fake 911 calls are pretty common. If this is extremely rare, I would agree. But if this is somewhat regular, we should make sure that operators feel respected and not discouraged. In the story of Chaim Brisker suggesting to add fire on shabbos so that the doctor could see better the sick grandson, baby R Soloveitchik – people in the room hesitated, so then R Chaim did it himself. Was it really very likely that the doctor will make a mistake and not ask for more light if needed? probably, not. Same here – is it likely that someone does not join hatzolah based on one false call? probably, not. But it is part of accumulating information that affects our respect to the operators.
yankel > One cannot escape the fact that untold numbers of Jews lost their religion and connection to the RBSHO because of the historical Z movement.
I am not so sure of that. There were plenty of other non/anti-religious movements at the time, attractive both for material reasons (conversion, assimilation) and those who were idealistic (communists, bundists). True, I can see that someone still attached to Jews as a nation, will not be attracted to many foreign -isms, but would be to Zionism. But I think this balances with number of Jews who were saved by Zionism – first by encouraging them to go to EY before WW2 and by keeping non-religious Jews in Israel, marrying Jews, etc. R Schach writes that Hashem gave the brocha to early Zionists that Arabs did not accept them. Otherwise, they would go to universities if Beirut and Cairo and assimilate …
Even look at Soviet Jews in 1980-90s – half went to Israel and half to US. Those who came to US are way more assimilated and intermarried.
This might be a case where considerations of the person are important. We allow someone who drives to a hospital to drive back – so that nobody hesitates to drive someone.
In case of hatzolah, if there are many false calls, I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.
I am not sure there should be an argument here. R Soloveitchik’s goals for YU was to produce a large number of minimally qualified Rabbis who can be useful to the large number of Jewish communities of minimal observance. He specifically compares this with the Litvishe yeshiva world he came from. His goal did not seem to be to raise a small number of outstanding Talmidei Chachamim. As far as I know, R Kotler was NOT looking to place his students in such environment.
As to such rabbis in remote communities, other Talmidei Chachamim valued them. For example, when Ner Yisroel was sending bochurim to such community to fundraise during chol hamoed, some asked R Ruderman whether bochurim were allowed to shave so that they do not look disheveled. He answered – if the local Rav shaves on chol hamoed, they bochurim _should_ shave so that it does not look like they are trying to be “frummer” than local Rav.
R Boruch Ber spoke at RIETS in 1928
> One of their leaders even dared to create a “new Torah,” that is, a Five Books of the Torah, but not as it was given to Moshe from Sinai. Rather, he omitted many verses and many sections and laws that were not proper in his eyes. He is prepared to print this new Torah, and this he will teach the youths in the schools. And this will be one of the functions of the Bank: to establish schools for youths to educate them in the aforementioned path.
And this was definitely scary – and it did not survive as many other ideas of non-religious Jews. You can’t say that this was not worth paying attention to, of course, as so many Jews were going after various -isms, but we should be grateful to Hashem that things turned out better than feared.
> Furthermore, in truth, all their affairs and their foundations are mere fantasy, for their desire is impossible to bring to fruition, as there will be no agreement on this in any way. And we, too, by our very nature, are not suited for this. It is only the bribe of licentiousness and power that blinds the eyes of the primary activists in this matter, and after them, the fools walk in darkness.
this did not age well also.
for example, this judgment is premature – not just for Hadera has houses by now but for the “their great benefit to all of Israel.”
Indeed, even the Hovevei Tzion society in Odessa, which was founded about ten years ago with the permission of His Majesty’s government, what have they done for the good of our brethren? The one good thing they accomplished was the founding of the colony Chadera (Kastina). And as I have been told by a most trustworthy man who knows that colony well and knows its people well, this colony has only a few families. They do not have houses (only plank buildings), but only what is given to them for their toil in working the land, a franc and a half per day for each worker (and the income belongs to the society). They are impoverished slaves. They also support a small number of families in the colony of Petach Tikva with the profits from the etrogim. And this is their great benefit to all of Israel.
Some jew, thanks for posting. Note that there are some items here that I think everyone here will agree, such as the anti religious attitudes of original zionists. Then there are several items where Fridriker rebbe establishes criteria of what is good : allowing Yidden to go.to EY and to provide economic help. His estimates and predictions were incorrect though, and his successor accepted it and changed policies.
Daas > If driving fast to respond to an emergency was considered dangerous (“risking lives”), it would never be okay.
Of course, it is. Normal vehicles are not allowed to drive the way ambulances do. It is simple math that the risk of being late for an emergency is higher than a risk of a collision.
Ubi, thanks for bringing a relevant source from R Weiss!
Yankel,
I hear you, but it is not adadah’s fault that some CR poster is misusing it. I think the shevuos still remind us of potential dangers and that our future is uncertain.smerel > with these type of groups is that the Baaley Batim end up taking over
I saw the follow ascribed to Chofetz Chaim at the time when parties were in fashion: in every party, even the one that os made of Rabbis, the power will be in the hands of the Secretary…
You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?
Gadol, they both were looking to address the same problem- rapid assimilation of American Jewry, they just had different ways to address it. Note that these different ways applied to different types of people. R Kotler mostly worked with unassimilated Yidden, many coming from very traditional backgrounds. R Soloveitchik taught college educated and their children. Without R Soloveitchik and Chabad, we would have lost even more Yidden to assimilation. The only “problem ” is that some of r Kotler students might be interested in the other approaches, so it became necessary to disparage opposition. We’re R Hirsh export his approach to Vilna, he would be treated the same. R Salanter says so whenhe visited Germany: were I to have women in Torah classes in Lita, I’d be denounced.
Yankel, just be careful dismissing seforim because it is,agada.
This bias towards halakha is due to halakha having rules of derivation, while agadic discourse can go wild. This is a good reason to be careful with conclusions but don’t dismiss it totally.ujm, do you know where was the discussion between R Kotler and R Soloveitchik regarding women serving in Israeli army happening? In a dorm? In Boston?
yankel > Hafets Hayim was niftar already in 1933 .
> VY’M was printed AFTER establishment of the medina in 1948.ya, I was also confused. This shows that people who make up claims at some point go overboard.
.> ad hominem
it is not. I asked hakatan to expand on R Elchonon’s Torah and he is declining. Maybe he now decided to start a new thread and this will be great. Do you not find it strange when certain rabbis are only quoted in political context as if they are party representatives. This is demeaning to Talmidei Chachamim – as much as when selectively quoting some of them while claiming “all gedolim say”. We saw in some more serious discussions that, for example, Ohr Sameach and Netziv had way more nuanced view of early zionists.
in general, it is a feature of modern discussions to selectively support their side and hope that the truth will be understood from unlimited “free speech”. This is not a bad idea, but well below the Torah standard of emes where one should acknowledge all views and then advocate for his own. An unfortunate sign of assimilation even among those who claim to be against anything goyish.
HaKatan, you are just confirming my observation – you seem not to care for Rav Elchonon Torah and rather then sharing his thoughts with us, you are only interested in his position against Zionists. So, you refer to him because he happen to agree to your position, not because you are impressed by his Torah and became his student. This is a very self-serving way to (mis-)use divrei Talmidei Chachamim.
To clarify on the differences: in 1940s, R Soloveitchik indeed focused on working with American Jews. He writes that these educated young Jews are not getting help from either reform, for obvious reasons, nor from recently arrived European Rabbis, who are not able to relate to American Jews, including those educated in sciences and philosophy. Wider, his goal for YU was to train in an organized way congregational rabbis who can deal with local issues: marriages, davening, kashrus, parsha dvar Torah and in this way raise the level and prevent assimilation among American Jews. He even suggests to Mizrachi to change their effort in America from collecting money and people for EY to helping educate American Jews. Reasoning: Jews in Israel will stay Jewish, but next generation of American children will assimilate unless an effort is made to teach them. He was not thinking that only his approach is the right one. He is very appreciative of Chabad efforts (under previous L Rebbe) to send shluchim to small towns all over US.
I don’t think there was nothing objectionable in this activity for anyone who cared about Yidden. Possibly later when YU approach attracted also those in the orbit of other rabbis who worked with “frum” communities only, then these rabbis became not comfortable and had to convince their students that R Soloveitchik approach is not appropriate in order to protect their own path.
somejew> i didn’t realize the order matters for such people.
Those whose main occupation is rabanut can simply be called Rabbis unless in some formal situation. Rabbi Dr Twersky is mentioned this way because his writings are about his “Dr” work. So, would a Rabbi who teaches computer science or philosophy.
The way you use it, it sounds like “Dr” is not a good word in your mouth. I am sure when you need medical advice, you make sure to go to someone who has no “Dr”.
I am actually nogea b’davar here, so maybe you can help answer my question: I know some black hat individuals with positions in the community with whom I occasionally have to interact. For some reason, they always address me as “Mr AAQ”. Most other people use first name or “Dr AAQ” (even though I don’t do surgeries). Is this just a style or he means that he is a Rabbi, and I am chopped liver?
Evalimoshavlo, hilarious! I indeed heard this from school officials: don’t worry, trust us, we know better what your kid needs.
XCtl, Jews use money as Kiddushin, there is nothing wrong for a woman to look for financial stability from a hatan.
Al pi halakha?! I am longing for the times when this site was seriously moderated.
A question on 3 shevuot. Masechet shevuot 27 says that oaths that are in support of or against mitzvot are not valid.
So, if there is a mitzva of yishuv EY, then maybe 3 shevuot are not valid? Less dramatic, maybe when there are other overriding mitzvos, like saving lives, these situations are not included.
YU still has talmidei chachamim, you can read and listen to their divrei Torah on yutorah.org and make your own conclusions. As everywhere, some are better than others.
If you know people who refuse recognize talmidei chachamim from other schools, maybe you need to check what happened to them.
someJew, R Soloveitchik was definitely Rabbi Dr, not other way around. I am at a total loss why you are taking such huge spiritual risks to make a cheap point.
YYA > Pre WWI, when it was easier to immigrate to the USA, the matzav in most parts of Jewish Europe wasn’t as bad.
A good point. While WW1 was a calamity, it was an event that passed. Russian revolution in 1917-18 was the turning point in Eastern Europe – and another several years to understand that this is a long-term change and not another calamity.
Before WW1 there was still the same question we are discussing here – whether to embrace or oppose modernity. At that time, the score was very much negative – most of efforts to embrace were not successful. The choice was stark – stay poor and observant in Russian Poland or become affluent and assimilate in America. Of course, when Jews ended up in America, they started fixing the problem – whether R Soloveitchik way or R Kotler’s way, what all these efforts had in common – strengthening community in American environment. This seems to be repeating the pattern of Yaakov – reluctant to go to Mitzrayim until forced and then, al pi midrash, sending Yehudah to establish yeshiva. Hashem, of course, started preparing earlier – by sending Yosef there. Ideally, of course, rabonim would be sending students to America early on to establish institutions. Chofetz Chaim had some vision – he writes a book for such emigrants – Nidchei Yisroel.
Again, this shows that Jews are not perfect in responding to historical events and we all should try to contribute to search for solutions.
Mixed marriages are not that simple. The Jewish person obviously did an aveirah, possibly being unaware of it (not being raised religious, or believing that reform conversions are kosher), BUT the non-Jew who married a Jew is rarely aware that this is a problem from Jewish point of view. Furthermore, in many circumstances, their motivation is worthy and even heroic – despite anti-Jewish opinions of the society and their own relatives. So, such people possibly have very worthy people in their ancestry.
HaKatan, your frequent posts achieve the opposite result – instead of increasing respect to gedolim like R Elchonon,
you make him into a political figure whose mission of life, Ch’V was to protect Zionism. I suggest you start posting
some of the R Elchonon’s Torah, his yeshiva building efforts, etc so that the readers start taking him in context of his achievements and positions.tzatza > Extensive resources were deployed precisely because these normal investigative shortcuts (community tips, suspicious person reports, motive theories from witnesses) were unavailable due to religious prohibition of pointing the finger at someone without proof.
I would think that assisting police is not precluded by laws of lashon hara. American police does not have to follow beis din evidence rules, and modern ability to collect and fuse evidence from multiple sources is something that gemora did not look at. I heard from a rav that he was called to testify against some other yidden and he asked for a psak and was told to fully answer police questions.
YYA> t’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky…
These are gain extremes – Most “observant” options are, as they say, “a good start”, but usually give very minimal education. They are often overpriced 3rd rated colleges or online “diploma mills” that do not teach anything. Again, they are a realistic way forward for many. I agree on “top universities” especially in humanities. But there are other options:
– solid online colleges that teach as 2nd (not 3rd) rate programs, equivalent to what they teach “in person”.
– local, again 2nd rate/state colleges where kids live at home
– evening programs at 2nd and even 1st rate local colleges, where students are often older people
– YU (combined with 1+ first year of the above)> He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it…
There is probably truth to that, but his choice to work primarily with religious Christians is “interesting”. He somehow found it meaningful to spend years fixing minds of priests and nuns. I don’t think this was just “for a parnosah”.
akuperma > autonomous Jewish homeland, dominated by Daas Torah, could co-exist with a Palestinian/Islamic state
I have my doubts this will work out. If you look at last 80 years, minorities – from Christians to Yazidis – were not treated well in Middle East. Many are dead or left the region. Even if Daas Torah were better in their relationships with the government than daas Yazidis, I am not sure whether R Schach would negotiate successfully with ISIS.
Yo might say that things are “different now” – but we heard this many times in history. Besides Hamas and such that might be argued away by their hostility towards Zionism, if you look, for example, at Democracy Index, almost all middle eastern countries stayed at same level or slightly decreased over last 20 years.
YYA, when you are talking about philosophy, I won’t argue much with that. I am not pro or contra. As I said, I’d be happy to see Jewish community absorb first non-controversial ideas of modernity while arguing about philosophy. R Twersky suggests in some speech that yeshiva bochrim should learn physiology to appreciate maase Hashem, and then adds – doesn’t have to be at school, do it after school. Realistically speaking, if we want community to absorb ideas, it got to be in school or some other institutions.
The reason to learn from Western civilization v. Hindu is pretty simple – Western civilization is tremendously successful in the last several hundred years changing lives of billions of people. We all use fruits of that.
I stumbled upon a retelling of Alter Rebbe and his son story by R Sacks. He put the ending the way I was trying to 🙂
“My son, I do not know what you are studying, but it is not the study of Torah if it makes you deaf to the cry of a child.”that is, if “learning” creates misplaced priorities – it is not the right “learning”.
a couple of relevant quotes from Rav Soloveitchik about modernity. How is this affected by crazies on campuses?
We have always considered ourselves to be an inseparable part of humanity and we were ever ready to accept the divine challenge, Fill the earth and subdue it (Gen. 1:28). We have never proclaimed the philosophy of contemptus or odium seculi [rejection of the secular world]. We have steadily
maintained that involvement in the creative scheme of things is mandatory.Men of old who could not fight disease and succumbed in multitudes to yellow fever or any other plague with degrading helplessness could not lay claim to dignity. Only the man who builds hospitals, discovers therapeutic techniques, and saves lives is blessed with dignity . . . The brute is helpless, and therefore not dignified. Civilized man has gained limited control of nature and has become in certain respects her master, and with his mastery he has .attained dignity as well. His mastery has made it possible for him to act in accordance with his responsibility.
YYA > to make a ‘binary choice’ between a goyish velt that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically.
This is again picturing the other side as the extreme, something you reasonably complained about when others look at you. Just nudge your community to accept modernity to the extent R Twersky did – and respect others that do – and let’s talk then.
There can be coexistence without compromising individual values and hashkafah.
Sure there can be. IMHO, the reason there is less than there could be is simply because in big cities each individual community is big enough to do their own thing with little interaction with others. That also affords the luxury of circling the wagons and criticizing others… In out-of-town settings you do see much more cooperation.
YYA > How would one do that?
From your description, I think you are doing your part, this is great. I don’t think you should feel that existence of anti-religious extremists is a sign that you are not doing the right thing, the question is how “average” people see it. And, as Gadol mentions, it should work both ways: your depiction of “modern” institutions is also in the extreme. I am sure all problems you describe exist and people who choose jobs should look carefully what they are selecting. I, for example, deal mostly with technology and the end result of the technology aligns well with what I think Torah wants from us and 23 genders are not relevant. I also run my own business so I don’t have to depend on someone else’s value judgment (idea picked up from one of my Teachers from Baltimore who publicly said that he does not want to join his mossad with a bigger one – whose rep was sitting right nearby). But if we are talking of the essence – using chochma, I don’t think academic craziness should be of concern – as long as you know how to filter information out (or someone can do it for you). Try mussar & mikvah from Steipler’s advise. Rambam used Muslim philosophy and science – but he also ran away from Spain when crazy Muslim were in charge.
YYA > As I mentioned in my previous post about Reb Yoshe Ber z”l,, it could be anyone bigger than you ברוחניות as long as both of you are sincere. Rav Avigdor Miller (and many others) often said that the point of learning Gemara and Poskim etc. is to understand the מושגים and language of the Torah.
Yes, and R Soloveitchik himself writes about approaching modern issues with Torah knowledge…
>> Rav Avraham Twersky integrates psychology w/ Torah – while he was treating nuns (he has a book about just that).
> Yes he did. He also corresponded extensively with the Steipler Gaon, and went to the Mikveh every day while going to medical school…That is an interesting episode that I got a new insight recently. I am not sure how much they communicated. So, he asked Steipler (classmate of R Twersky’s father) about going to medical school and Steipler approved provided he goes to mikva, has daily hevrusa, and learn chassidus (or mussar?) I think. In one of the books, R Twesky adds a comment that precautions were not necessary, he did not really encountered challenges that Steipler envisioned as he was able to integrate the good parts and ignore or did not encounter problematic. So, my new insight on this episode: Steipler was looking at the situation as a Bnei Braq resident would feel, not the way Twersky saw it.
Another interesting comment from R Tersky: he saw how previous generation would go to his father with business, psychological, and even medical problems, but that the next generation was going to professionals – lawyers, doctors, so he decided that being a psychologist was a more productive path for him …
> חכמה בגויים תאמין refers to technical know-how, not guidance on the תכלית החיים and רצון השם, which, for Yidden, define and permeate every aspect of life.
of course, I think we have less and less to argue about 🙂