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Nisht, I think we are talking about Yidden who manage nursing home. Maybe they hire other ydden to work for them.
Working for a generic nursing home where you have no relations to the owners will have less of problem, indeed, but I never heard about Jews who live in places where there are no Jewish-run homes about this being a lucrative job. So, this raises suspicions.
DaMoshe> What about the Baal HaTanya, who changed from his father’s minhagim?
Indeed. On this shitah, I was once for chol hamoed at a chabad minyan where there were exactly 10 of us. I used the leverage and said – I’ll come on the condition I can wear tefilin. I am aware this is contrary to the halakha “when in Rome …”, but I felt hasidim changed the minhagim so they can’t be too offended.
To understand the limits – one of R Moshe’s students did not eat gebrochts. Got married. Explained his minhag to his wife (or so he thought). Came to the kitchen 2 days before Pesach and saw his wife cooking kneldlach … not clear, whether he fotrgot to tell her, or she did not pay attention. So, he asked R Moshe – what is the way to deal with this situation? How to tell his new wife that the kneldlach are gebrochts?
It is very concerning to me that I cannot figure out whether this is a real letter or satire! Maybe it is hard to get humor in a 2nd or 4th language ….
Hayalim should daven for lomdei Torah? Maybe chayalim should say meshebrach for those who refuse to say mishebrerach for the chayalim?
Nursing home admin earnings, as any margin-based business, highly depends on difference between sales and costs. So, yetzer hara is high. And the cost include wellbeing of human being. A difficult proposition. A lawyer is paid by hour. Yes, you can get more hours by helping doing something not-so-legal; but you can also get enough business by being known for your integrity.
If you want to have good, cheaper schools, you can. Use online for general education with some supervision; combine a couple of classes for Jewish classes. Plus most schools do get some donations, especially if they are doing a good job. So, if each parent chis in 8-10K per child, this should do it.
I understand that R Ovadia Yosef paskened that gebrokhts are minhag taut and should be dealt with via hatarat nedarim.
Chaverim do a great job, but I am just wondering – do people in your area use AAA? It is pretty reliable OOT. Is it not good in-town, or there is moral hazard here – people know that chaverim could help for free, so why buy a service?
Rambam “accepted emes regardless of a source”. In science also, there is a system of open publications that allows other knowledgeable people to verify what is published. So, if you are looking at a popular publication and there are several studies on the issue, you might rely on the exppertise. Still, context matter. While generally halakha defers to one doctor, R Mayer Twersly had a teshuva early on during covid where he explains that in this case of great uncertainty, we should consult several sources and act cautiously according to all of them. Now, our lack of knowledge about covid was not greater than medieval lack of knowledge about any diseases of the time, but we simply know better what we don’t know 🙂
qwerty> Rabbi Akiva said that one who studies Sefarim Chitzonim is an Apikorus.
My source: R Eliezer, who only taught what he learnt from his teachers – lamented that R Akiva was the only one who asked him questions about magical cucumbers. And in order to explain to R Akiva difference between real avoda zora who are hayav misa v. those who just pretend to do it – he demonstrated both ways. As part of the discussion, the rav mentioned that he paskens differently for different students who want to learn about other religions – some who are in danger of being attracted are not allowed, others, who might need to support their own beliefs while living among knowledgeable goyim, were recommended. I imagine there would be some people in between.
> The question is why would people go otd so quickly if our lifestyle is supposedly the truth.
right. It is a difficult balance – if you introduce, esp kids, to the world too early, you are risking OTD, or at least acquisition of undesirable views and middos. If you don’t introduce at all – then R Soloveitchik’s question from the 1950s still stands: if we claim to have truth from Hashem, why are we hiding in caves.
Middle road is hard.People get addicted to 24-hour delivery of everything. Some things are hard, you can show respect and add those who are risking their lives in your davening.
The problem might be that these minhagim might need to change quickly with technology and social changes – sometimes l’kula, sometimes l’humra.
For example, nobody was saying hamotzi on pizza 100 years ago – as it was a treat. Now people do because it became, lo aleinu, a full lunch.
Processsed food became more uniform and with different ingredients. Humriche food became more accessible in many places.what do you mean “new” minhagim? In my family, we did not eat machine matzah from the time of Beis Hamikdash.
> it would be best not to name the town
indeed, it is even worse in less densely Jewish towns. When you see a clearly observant person misbehaving on the road, you likely know the person and it is also weighs more into people’s perception.
Chaim, see Daniel Feldman True Lies, False Facts for in-depth discussion of trade-offs of free media amd loshon horo. Free speech is a necessary part of democratic governance, people need to have as much info as possible about those they appoint. Where exactly the nation decided to draw the line is not that important – as long as the democratic process works. The hard part becomes when observant Jews are entering this process – do we use same tools or do we follow higher path? It seems t me that at least we should be better than others and try to be yashar. Take Joe Lieberman for example – he was a politician and some of his positions and statements could be viewed as artificial and self-serving. But he was viewed as a moral person.
rescue> Put all the stress in your in laws. That sound very biblical.
Or the govement =usuryOf course you can support yourself and learn. Not a new idea. But as long as it is private and volunteer, there should not be a problem. Rambam learned while his brother supported him, and worked after that (and supported his brother’s family). I would have no problem supporting a Talmid Chochom as a S-I-L. It is just most of current learning is not at the level but it is “Torah as medicine” (idea endorsed by gemorah) – to prevent people going off the derech. For example, when I had please discussing various bochurim with their rebbes, they would say “he is learning”. What? How? “like everyone else. great”…
Maybe, things will look better if we honestly requalify expense from “learning” to saving lives of people who will drown in modern society without being locked in yeshivos. Then, this expense becomes more justified. And then we sould remember that the best tzedokah is helping people to leave the tzedokah rolls – help them acquire work skills and social skills to live in the world without going OTD.
PS I guess you are troubled that you are “struggling”. But this is normal, Hashem did not sign a contract with us that everything should be totally easy.
Surviving without camps or some other “necessities” may be that.On this note, someone quoted to me one of the gedolim, maybe R Kamenetsky, talking to baalei batim in Boro Park who were becoming more affluent:
remember your “luxuries” will become your children’s “necessities”. So maybe you one of those who was raised like that. Luckily for me, I was not, so I appreciate those luxuries I can afford (and those that we choose not to do even if we can afford them). I am not so sure about the kids, though, even as we continue reminsdning them and even make them scrub the house before Pesach. Let me go see how they enjoy slavery.Chaim, I think you are doing the right thing, you are just complaining about it.
“choosing” not to work and rely on others paying for you is not an erliche option.
If you think working in business is better … Not exact match, but there was shochet who told R Salanter that he doesn’t want to be responsible for aveiros in shechita, so he is going into business! R Salanter was horrified that he is not afraid of aveiros in business .. accounting is not shechita, but the business alternative is still the same. Not randomly, you bring the “nursing home” example – a business rife with people being in trouble with medicaid, hiring illegals, profits balancing how much you spend on feeding elderly … I would rather be an accountant for Enron that face this yetzer hara.
So, just stop thinking that the grass is greener somewhere else, you are doing well.I would look at adjustments – 401k, vacations, camps – really, train your kids and learn yourself to enjoy interacting with them. If the choice is not being to pay for school, camp should go first (my school has question “which camp you go to” in there where they are trying to figure out how rich you are).
If kids are too young for kiruv camps, they can help out in a local summer day camp with little kids. Mine started doing it, I think, when they were 12.
Maybe assist at a local chabad house, if you have one or maybe your place is too frum.In terms of school costs, I am big proponent of doing general subjects in online schools from about 7-8th grades – you can then have all kids together in Jewish classes, and everyone can go there own way in general studies – some might want Yinglish only, some might want AP and SAT. And this cuts cost at school. If you are really pressed – experiment with 1-2 (better 2 close in age) kids in fully online Jewish schools for a year.
When you have someone working for you, you should be liberal with their mistakes. There is also an idea that an expert is not liable for mistaken bad advice. BUT a non-expert is.
In this case, I agree with you that you need to help them know when they are competent – and prevent future damage. Surely, you want to send a friendly message to whoever is in charge of the group.
You know, medical pain is an indicator that something is wrong with the body … the pain itself is not the important thing but it point to where the problem is. This statement that camp is a necessity may be such a sign – are your kids capable of doing something positive when they are not watched by a teacher? Do they take a sefer during the vacation? Do they have friends with whom they can spend quality time? Hobbies? Would they mind preparing for SAT or play basketball or piano? If there are many “no” answers here, then see how to change that and help them grow into healthy adults.
Chaim, something is not right when you think summer camp is a necessity and your kids can’t spend time “without structure”. It means there is something wrong with the way you educate your kids during the year. This is a way more urgent problem that the money we are discussing. Start teaching your kids to be able to function.
Same for borrowing from 401k. You before said that you contribute to get match. Surely, you got match, now you can borrow. Remember, we are comparing with alternative – a heimishe job that presumably does not have 401k.
Same for classes. You can have your class during lunch at your job and listen to shiur while standing in traffic to the City. If you are booming with high paying respectable honest non-college jobs, this is great. Then bnos pnina (remember where we started!) would not shut down because the parents will have money to pay for the school. Tiuvta?
misnagid, not arguing with you, but you need to look at the sources: many early opinions about various electric devices were just that … uninformed opinions. And then some are still propagated from the previous ones. So, you need to look at the issue and possibly by a rav who either knows the swcience or is known to consult those who know the science. R Auerbach, for example.
There was recently an explosion on rechov HaKatan in Tel Aviv – here is a hypocrite hiding in the middle of a Zioni city.
Chaim, here you go.
Either a parent could work in a camp, if he is underemployed, or better kids could work or volunteer in a regular or kiruv camp, or just spend the summer leisurely between a library and visiting grandparents. Seminary? Some of our daughters hold a grudge that they were not sent there – but they can’t point to anything their peers who went there acquired in ruchniyus that they don’t. Most kids can get a substantial number of clothes from older sisters if ou teach them how to take care of clothes. As our baby says : this is dress is “new to me”.
BTW, for a wedding, you can borrow from your 401k 50K after you got your match, or I heard you can even borrow against the 401k as an asset.
Anyway, given that you are listing camps and such as your spending problems, you are really not stressed at all.
And let’s not forget what the subject was – you are saying that because of some optional spending, you recommend changing ehrliche nice life as a professional, who has time to learn and have time with his family and turn into business where you are risking both money and olam haboh if you succumb to yetzer hora? I mean if you wan to risk it, at least have a high-tech startup with some possible upside.
Chaim> Its not to showoff, its just ingrained that this is what we do. And so here is the key point, the more the rich do things the higher it brings up a standard for everyone else. Its very hard not to spend the money when its the social norm. To your last point, I do not think dependcny is an issue. Thats even more rare.
“not show off, just ingrained” – you are trying to simple re-word and excuse it. It became ingrained because it is popular to show off.
I agree that rich folks are partly responsible, but these days people should know enough not to copy.On dependency – if you take a group of those who are independently middle-class and those who depend on some community help – it is true that the first one often show off even more (as they have more funds available – and I hear it is worse in NY area than in other places), but this group contains a sizeable cluster of people who do not show off – you simply do not notice them when they do not make those lavish simchas. The dependent group is pressed more to comply. It is what I see.
These issues show up in unexpected places – some of our kids insist already 3rd year in a row that they need to give shaloch monos to teachers with a good bottle of wine. Not because they love those teachers so much – this is shayach to any teacker – but because [wide eyes] that is what everyone does. We told them – you gift what you drink – grape juice.
Chaim,
I’ve been to lakewood and know people there, maybe not to degree you are. And I even know people who respond “I am not from Lakewood, I am from TOMS RIVER”.As I said, I agree with you that doing parnosa in Jewish community is often better than in a general one. Although, not always – if you are an only smart Yid in an Alabama village, you can have great business going. But, comparing apples-to-apples. You compare with big corporate world. You can also work for a smaller well-run company or have your own high-tech business (like I do). The focus is on difference in professional level:
compare being a corporate accountant v. being a salesman in a corporation
and compare running your own accounting shop with running your own candy storeand as you are saying – some trends hit low-educated (or generally, business) harder. I have a lakewood friend who was verry successful in RE untill it all got destroyed. But we are both just repeating gemora in kiddushin about trade v business. Old news.
So, family of 6 in NJm with $200K in W2, and $1mln home gets $2K/month after mortgage/transportation/utilities/food/etc, thanks chatgpt. That is enough to have 2-3 kids in private school or all 4 with some squeeze. Maybe suspend 401k or have wife or kids work a little and you are all set.
Chaim,
while you are right that rich people behavior affect the rest, and was it R Gamliel or R Shimon b Gamliel who ordered a modest funeral for himself in order to influence others? BUT a bigger issue is non-rich people cumulatively trying to play it up in front of each other. And, I suspect, dependency is an issue here:If I am independently non-wealthy, but self-supporting, I don’t need to show off. But if I am always looking to people for various benefits – discount in yeshiva; free invitation; a job at school or a mossad; then I need to maintain my image. So, having more people supporting themselves will reduce the pressure to show off.
DaMoshe, what was wrong with Uganda plan, especially for those non-zionist shevuos guys? Would it have been wrong to evacuate Jews from the upcoming murder by Nazis and Commies in Europe?
somejew, everything I quoted is from images with signs held by NK-looking people. I don’t know who of them are true NK and who are not. Maybe you are looking at some other imagers where they did not post everything.
I think some posters, whether Iranian or otherwise, were so frustrated that their posts were moderated out that they decided to take over the moderation.
BUT as Aristotle and Rambam taught us: “everything is better in moderation”.Happy new year to our Iranian readers and wishing you more freedom in Nissan.
somejew, march 7, 2026 demo generates headlines:
#Jews condemning the Zionist attack on #Iran and calling for Hands Off Iran at a protest in #Unionsquare, NYC, on Saturday, March 7, 2026.I see on the pictures:
Jews worldwide say: we condemn Israel’s war on Iran
Jews worldwide say: we condemn Israel’s war on Gaza
Judaism demands freedom for Gaza and all palestine
Judaism demands all palestine return to palestinian sovereignty
stop the war on iran
peace with iranmetoo, this ruling is for his time.
When pareve coffee cream appeared, one would leave a container near his coffee to avoid an impression that he is drinking milk after meat. By now, nobody is having a problem with that.
When Waymos will fill the streets, nobody will be confused.
ujm > Herzl and Zionism were just as okay to have Uganda
just can’t make you happy. When Zs push for everyone to go to EY – shvuos, idol worship .. when Herzl suggested Uganda – you are not happy again. And his idea was rejected. I think this only proves that he tried his best to save Jews, despite his limited knowledge. And, again, explain to me why so many learned people did not see the dangers that he saw, and acted upon.
Flatbush, these are good ideas about takonos – what did your rav say about it?
But there is another way out of this vicious circle – become self-sufficient financially by working. Not only, this increases ability to pay, but also, ironically, decreases a desire for crazy spending. Let me explain: if the person depends on community support – reduced tuition, school principal paying your salary, etc, then there is an obvious desire to show oneself a loyal member of the community. This has good sides, keeping people conforming to religious norms, but it also generates the impulse to show off your dedication, including by creating such simchos. After all, if you don’t do that and don’t invite hoshuve people, then you will not be invited …
my kids brought the idea from school that they need to have special sholoch monos for their school teachers, including a good bottle of wine. Not because they love every teacher, but because “everyone shows kavod”. I suggested that they send to their friends and those kids that may not have many friends. We compromised on the teachers they like and even .. took several of their friends to … math teacher that nobody was planning to visit.
YYA, I just wanted to emphasize that when there is a range of options within these technical parameters, R Auerbach took into account kavod habrius.
on technical issues, I don’t think I learnt this sugya in depth: are we saying that combustion engine is fire? is burning in ICE halachik fire?
rescue, I gave you a reference to one paper, and now we are discussing whether papers are worth reading in general. Maybe give us feedback on this or related papers, and then we will learn more about this interesting subject.
pure, so you still have one source – R Wasserman.
I do not understand how with so much written by and about him, Chofetz Chaim never revealed himself to other people; or other people never reported that. So, if we can’t resolve this enigma, maybe you can compile statements from rabbis who had opposite opinion and we can see if those are more or less trustworthy. And it will be a good exercise for you.n0> This rational was used for Jews in America to work on Shabbos until 95 years ago.
I heard the following story from Canada. The person who told the story said that he saw a person who was always coming to shul on shabbos, sat in his coat in the back of the room, did not talk to anyone, and left at the end of davening. His story: he lost his job during great depression and only found one that required working on shabbos and he had a family to support. He minimized what he could: walked to the job pretty far away, at the end stayed until shkiya to return, etc. After he eventually found another job, he came back to shul, but put cherem on himself for being mechalel shabbos and sat in that corner for a couple of decades already, despite pleading from the kahal and the rav.
I am sure at some point there were Zionists who were focused on “their agenda”. This happens in any organized movement and it is not good.
But original idea came to Hertzl when he got disappointed with the path of assimilation seeing that even assimilated Jews were not accepted, so Zionism was a means to saving Jews as a separate entity instead.There is nothing wrong with this idea at the time when things were getting worse for Jews in Europe, and it is something to be explained – how is a naive journalist from Vienna can see whether things are going better than so many learned people.
AviraDeArah> Rav moshe allowed a hearing aid to be worn on shabbos because it isnt noticeably zilzul shabbos, which he held was a problem. He held that the other issurim involved werent clear, and that while theyre enough to asser in general, for a choleh we can be lenient.
From R Lichtestein’s hesped for R Auerbach, this seems to be more about kavod than just shabbos halochos:
Once I asked him about hearing aids on Shabbat. He permitted them. But he told me:
Someone wrote to me from America saying that Rabbi Aharon Kotler was careful not to speak to someone wearing a hearing aid on Shabbat, lest he activate the device.
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman said he could not believe such a thing. Imagine it is not enough that Heaven punished him with deafness… the Gemara says if
someone makes another person deaf he must pay the value of the entire person as if he were dead. And that is not enough punishment?
And now when you meet him on the street, instead of saying hello, you speak like this… m…m…m…?
To him the idea was absurd from the outset.
Some people almost seem to enjoy suffering on Shabbat. He saw this not merely as misplaced stringency but as a harm to Shabbat and to the human being. Life on Shabbat should not be misery compared to weekday life.From R Lichtestein’s hesped for R Auerbach:
But everything reflected intellectual integrity, which of course stemmed from inner moral integrity.
At the same time there was in him despite his awareness of the world a certain note of innocence. Once he said to me:
Imagine someone came and told me that in America there are people who avoid paying income tax properly.
He was astonished.
And they are our people observant Jews!chaim> Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach: In the time of Rabbi Kook, the majority of Torah giants were all as if nothing compared to him.
Here is second-hand info, but still interesting and going beyond nice statements that can be made just out of politeness or political necessity:
from R Lichtenstein’s hesped for R Auerbach:
Someone once told me that Rabbi Shlomo Zalman served as honorary president of the Jerusalem Institute. They once wanted to add a certain distinguished figure to the board, but he vetoed it. Why? Because he heard that this person referred to Rabbi Kook simply as Kook, without honor. A person who spoke like that could not serve. He would not yield until the rumor was proven false.I understand YYA that he doesn’t want to go circles into debating Zionism, but this thread shows that people base their (sometimes insane) positions about current events on those theories.
Yes, it is possible to separate and say – let’s not debate old issues and look at current events, and it is very reasonable. But the reality is that many people are affected by years of propaganda – on each side of every issue. And when yo are dealing with decisions of life and death, it might lead someone, H’V, to very serious aveiros. This is also true about events in 1920s-40s when so many followed their group ideologies.
See gemorah drash about what word “es” means, and that “yire as haElokim” es possibly can not mean “something else”, but Rabbi Akiva says – it can mean that also “talmidei chachamim”. from this. yireh means something that when applied to Hashem can not be comparable to most other situationms. That, it i surely not general “fear” – it is either extreme fear or awe …
pure > Chafetz Chayim said the zionists are mizera amalek as stated by Rav Wasserman ztzl)
it seems from your writing that we do not have any other source for such an opinion by Ch. Ch. despite him authoring so many seforim, articles, and private letters. Any explanations? He did not trust anyone except his favorite student?
PS Presenting one witness is a chapter in hilchos loshon horo. If you don’t have two witnesses – do not present info, go home.
So, the simplest way to stop such demonstrations is to invalidate the eruv? Just do it before the time of mothers taking kids to shul.
Rocky> I dont really understand what a discussion on College has to Bnos Penina
retracing the steps:
my conjecture was that the root problem is parents’ inability to pay for school because the community is lacking good jobs; and a college is a way for having good erliche jobs for a wide swath of population. The other opinion is that people get by pretty well without college and .. hm. then I don’t know why they still can’t pay tuition … So, I am also lost by the claim that is not supported by facts!rescue > Studies are manipulated propaganda from special interests most times and its an appeal to authority instead of fact. Observation, real life experience is a much better teacher.
I am not denying that there is propaganda in the world. At the same time, there are studies that are “observations” – conducted according to a protocol. When you read a proper study and look at the authors’ other work, and, if needed, can contact the authors to clarify, and sometimes having data published openly – you can find good observations. So, if you want your opinion to be taken seriously in this debate – you should open some studies and read them inside.
rescue > Look around you? Do the liberals look like they have a high IQ no they dont.
Not everyone with college degree is liberal, or have high IQ… It is hard for me to judge, indeed – I do not know many people with bachelor degrees, so what I observe personally may not generalize to overall population – that is why I am reading studies.
In my observation, highly educated people have a large subset of very smart people. It is true many exhibit signs of “schooling” – they are way more reasonable when they talk about their profession but less in others. Still, many who are teaching or doing research full-time can have interesting Torah discussions, comparable to Talmidei Chachomim, but much smaller number of non-college educated non-T Ch can do the same,