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I think I joked already that the new law was secretly written by Roshei Yeshivos to make learners learn. And here it is reported second-hand:
>> And the sanctions going into force immediately would actually be welcomed by many rabbis — who would prefer that their students not travel abroad or engage in other behavior that would distract them from their studies, said Yanky Faber, a reporter for Behadrei Haredim.
>> “They don’t mind these sanctions at all,” he said.wtsp, I admire that you noticed this cognitive dissonance. Maybe, the solution is other way around: if you see your fellow Jews being mosser nefesh to protect other Yidden and often have tremendous hatzloha, and they include a lot of shomer shabbos Yidden – maybe you can think how you can contribute instead of oppose?
coffee > And Joe is happy that reform will be getting twice as much money as EHK
there is not much danger in money given to reform, other than bitul mamon. So, some elderly Jews will listen to good music and some non-Jews will get lectures in tikkun olam. We got to be more careful with other groups so that they do not spend money advocating for shitos that work against achdus of am yisroel.
Regarding agadta, Rambam says definitely that some is very real, and some very symbolic, so maybe there is no one rule here.
YYA > This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות
I _believe_ that there is such trend in modern Judaism, probably from Rishonim up. Maybe not so explicit, but def emphasizing action v belief. Some say that this is caused by trying to distance ourselves from our European neighbors who stressed “belief”. So, possibly, some went too far in the other direction. (I do agree with you).
non=political > Many none-arab nations are currently running peaceful, multi-cultural countries in the Middle East. One of them could administer the land of Israel.
There is some truth in this as of now. Looking back at last 80 years – Arabs killed millions of other Arabs and with higher rate various minorities. So, if Jews in EY have stayed under Arabs, they would not have lived until current times. And same with Sephardim under same Arab/Muslim states. Egypt and Syria were briefly a joint country in 1970s, I think. So, there would have been a large socialist caliphate – from the river Nile to the Caspian sea, maybe even joining USSR.
Even recently, there were enough murder in Arab countries … but nothing stops those so inclined to organize settlements in EY outside of the Medinah. Presumably, the Arabs will be happy to support such Jewish group.
> In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
I understand that this was modus operandi of galus, but did your 3 shevuos extend to not fighting anytime, anywhere?
at the end, there is a halachik way to deal with shevuos via hatarat nedorim.
“when you made the shevua, did you think that there will be a Jewish state in Israel with an army and arrows that can hit Haman in his office 1000 mil away?”
“no”YYA> Only Bibi versus Anything Other Than Bibi, Yuli Edelstein trying to send his boss into retirement and become the next boss, Bennett taking another shot at the Piñata and not caring what will happen the day after, and other שאר ירקות that are very relevant to the security needs of Israel.
I agree that a lot of heat is generated by people trying to get ahead politically. Maybe there is a moment now, again, to try to join together, whether in the army or in tehilim.
YYA > On a practical level, the Army needs the Chareidim like a hole in their head.
The rational part of the current matzav is a prolonged war. Israel was previously successful at making war quickly. With long engagements, resources are stretched. There is increase in sending women closer to combat than usual. Given how emphatic R Kotler was against drafting women into Tzahal, maybe he would suggest to send available men instead?
Maybe you mean that Caredim are not prepared for the Army? This is “killing the parents and asking for rahmanus as an orphan”. They are not prepared because they refused to prepare. In practical terms, those who want to do teshuva could use pathways that can be accessed faster – maybe drivers, cooks, computer engineers …
anonymous > So, if you lived in the United States in 1942, how would you evade the draft?
Maybe Lubavitcher Rebbe’s way (by working for the Navy_
ujm > The Gemora is correct. Albert Einstein, in his Theory of Relatively,
I agree with ujm. Moschiach is coming. Even before Einstein, the fight was about nothing. Ptolemean astronomy was correct – it predicted events. It is just formulas were a little more complicated than Keppler’s ellipses. Big deal, with computers it doe not really matter. Galileo would have been better off inventing computers.
At the end, any point can be used as the center. As the gemorah says: a person can say that the world was created for him [and can use himself as the center of the world to compute astronomic calculations].
yankel > What would be lacking if they did ?
hard to say. Here is a case: Ms Sarah Schenirer got the idea of building a school from Rabbi Dr Frisch from Yakkish school. Several yakkish ladies with university degrees helped her build the curriculum. After that, she got first cursory and then more support from some of the chassidisha rebbes – and opposition from others. If some of those rabbis knew what Rabbi Dr Frisch knew – maybe they would have come up with the school system earlier and with yad rama rather than leaving `the mitzvah to Ms Schenirer? How many neshomos ended up in a wrong place in the meanwhile?
I am not advocating for rebbes doctors, just answering your question “What would be lacking “
R. Brayer, Boyaner Rebbe, Brooklyn college
yankel berel> How many hasidic rebeim thru the course of history , studied in universities , what are their names and when did they live ?
Sorry, I am lurking at this thread and I don’t have enregy to go back, so I may not understand the hidden meaning of this question. But I decided to research this intriguing question. The list seems to be short:
Lubavitcher Rebbe – university of Berlin, Montparnase Vocational College
his brother Yisroel Aryeh Leib Schneerson, died while doing PhD at Liverpool university
Talner Rebbe – Boston Latin high school, hebrew college, harvard, hebrew university,
Mayer Twersky, seems to consider himself (or considered?) Talner Rebbe – harvarda possible drop-out: Munkacser Rebbe, Moshe Leib Rabinovich studied in Israel, undertook secular studies in public schools in São Paulo, Brazil, and later studied in the United States at the Telshe yeshiva in Cleveland, Ohio, refusing to attend college, to his father’s [previous Rebbe] disappointment.
almost there: Dr. Abraham Twerski – got the smicha, from chassidic family, but not really e rebbe – Marquette U, U of Pittsburgh
an honorable mention: Dr. Yehuda Sabiner, First Gerrer Chassid to Graduate Medical School
Red Adair, thanks a lot for taking an effort. It does look like considering answering the call meduaraita is the key here.
somejew > “even if these men were wholehearted with Hashem and His Torah , and even if there were reason to think they could achieve their goal, we are forbidden to listen to them in this matter: to bring about our redemption through our own power.” … The Rebbe list his sources and explains its application to the situation.
I agree that this part of his argument stands better than others. Still, are you not shocked by the number of assumptions in this letter that turned out different? Does it not make you think that the issue is complicated and you need to be careful with conclusions?
But, strictly speaking about current matzav, as others are calling here – we are not deciding now whether to go against Arab armies into EY. We currently have several millions of Jews in EY, including multitudes of religious ones, yeshivos and chesed organizations all over the place – are 3 shevuos saying anything about this? any classical commentator discussing this b’dieved situation? Should we apologize and return to the shtetlach in Ukraine? Sephardim going back to Syria and Morocco?
yankel berel> I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.
This seems to be an often used device and is, no doubt, often needed. What are parameters for such statements? And if some of it is allowed as haraas hashaah, how do we evaluate a lot of the emergency Torah of the last 100+ years of “emergency” and make sure we do not lose the emes to emergency?
I think this letter is a good contribution to the discussion. We can see that certain statements and predictions came up differently in history. Clearly shows that even big talmidei chachamim do not always see what will happen. In this case, the letter is well written and lists reasons and assumptions, so it is possible to see the parts that need re-evaluation.
Avram > asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
Not suggesting that. I don’t know how often the false calls are. From the press, it seems that fake 911 calls are pretty common. If this is extremely rare, I would agree. But if this is somewhat regular, we should make sure that operators feel respected and not discouraged. In the story of Chaim Brisker suggesting to add fire on shabbos so that the doctor could see better the sick grandson, baby R Soloveitchik – people in the room hesitated, so then R Chaim did it himself. Was it really very likely that the doctor will make a mistake and not ask for more light if needed? probably, not. Same here – is it likely that someone does not join hatzolah based on one false call? probably, not. But it is part of accumulating information that affects our respect to the operators.
yankel > One cannot escape the fact that untold numbers of Jews lost their religion and connection to the RBSHO because of the historical Z movement.
I am not so sure of that. There were plenty of other non/anti-religious movements at the time, attractive both for material reasons (conversion, assimilation) and those who were idealistic (communists, bundists). True, I can see that someone still attached to Jews as a nation, will not be attracted to many foreign -isms, but would be to Zionism. But I think this balances with number of Jews who were saved by Zionism – first by encouraging them to go to EY before WW2 and by keeping non-religious Jews in Israel, marrying Jews, etc. R Schach writes that Hashem gave the brocha to early Zionists that Arabs did not accept them. Otherwise, they would go to universities if Beirut and Cairo and assimilate …
Even look at Soviet Jews in 1980-90s – half went to Israel and half to US. Those who came to US are way more assimilated and intermarried.
This might be a case where considerations of the person are important. We allow someone who drives to a hospital to drive back – so that nobody hesitates to drive someone.
In case of hatzolah, if there are many false calls, I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.
I am not sure there should be an argument here. R Soloveitchik’s goals for YU was to produce a large number of minimally qualified Rabbis who can be useful to the large number of Jewish communities of minimal observance. He specifically compares this with the Litvishe yeshiva world he came from. His goal did not seem to be to raise a small number of outstanding Talmidei Chachamim. As far as I know, R Kotler was NOT looking to place his students in such environment.
As to such rabbis in remote communities, other Talmidei Chachamim valued them. For example, when Ner Yisroel was sending bochurim to such community to fundraise during chol hamoed, some asked R Ruderman whether bochurim were allowed to shave so that they do not look disheveled. He answered – if the local Rav shaves on chol hamoed, they bochurim _should_ shave so that it does not look like they are trying to be “frummer” than local Rav.
R Boruch Ber spoke at RIETS in 1928
> One of their leaders even dared to create a “new Torah,” that is, a Five Books of the Torah, but not as it was given to Moshe from Sinai. Rather, he omitted many verses and many sections and laws that were not proper in his eyes. He is prepared to print this new Torah, and this he will teach the youths in the schools. And this will be one of the functions of the Bank: to establish schools for youths to educate them in the aforementioned path.
And this was definitely scary – and it did not survive as many other ideas of non-religious Jews. You can’t say that this was not worth paying attention to, of course, as so many Jews were going after various -isms, but we should be grateful to Hashem that things turned out better than feared.
> Furthermore, in truth, all their affairs and their foundations are mere fantasy, for their desire is impossible to bring to fruition, as there will be no agreement on this in any way. And we, too, by our very nature, are not suited for this. It is only the bribe of licentiousness and power that blinds the eyes of the primary activists in this matter, and after them, the fools walk in darkness.
this did not age well also.
for example, this judgment is premature – not just for Hadera has houses by now but for the “their great benefit to all of Israel.”
Indeed, even the Hovevei Tzion society in Odessa, which was founded about ten years ago with the permission of His Majesty’s government, what have they done for the good of our brethren? The one good thing they accomplished was the founding of the colony Chadera (Kastina). And as I have been told by a most trustworthy man who knows that colony well and knows its people well, this colony has only a few families. They do not have houses (only plank buildings), but only what is given to them for their toil in working the land, a franc and a half per day for each worker (and the income belongs to the society). They are impoverished slaves. They also support a small number of families in the colony of Petach Tikva with the profits from the etrogim. And this is their great benefit to all of Israel.
Some jew, thanks for posting. Note that there are some items here that I think everyone here will agree, such as the anti religious attitudes of original zionists. Then there are several items where Fridriker rebbe establishes criteria of what is good : allowing Yidden to go.to EY and to provide economic help. His estimates and predictions were incorrect though, and his successor accepted it and changed policies.
Daas > If driving fast to respond to an emergency was considered dangerous (“risking lives”), it would never be okay.
Of course, it is. Normal vehicles are not allowed to drive the way ambulances do. It is simple math that the risk of being late for an emergency is higher than a risk of a collision.
Ubi, thanks for bringing a relevant source from R Weiss!
Yankel,
I hear you, but it is not adadah’s fault that some CR poster is misusing it. I think the shevuos still remind us of potential dangers and that our future is uncertain.smerel > with these type of groups is that the Baaley Batim end up taking over
I saw the follow ascribed to Chofetz Chaim at the time when parties were in fashion: in every party, even the one that os made of Rabbis, the power will be in the hands of the Secretary…
You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?
Gadol, they both were looking to address the same problem- rapid assimilation of American Jewry, they just had different ways to address it. Note that these different ways applied to different types of people. R Kotler mostly worked with unassimilated Yidden, many coming from very traditional backgrounds. R Soloveitchik taught college educated and their children. Without R Soloveitchik and Chabad, we would have lost even more Yidden to assimilation. The only “problem ” is that some of r Kotler students might be interested in the other approaches, so it became necessary to disparage opposition. We’re R Hirsh export his approach to Vilna, he would be treated the same. R Salanter says so whenhe visited Germany: were I to have women in Torah classes in Lita, I’d be denounced.
Yankel, just be careful dismissing seforim because it is,agada.
This bias towards halakha is due to halakha having rules of derivation, while agadic discourse can go wild. This is a good reason to be careful with conclusions but don’t dismiss it totally.ujm, do you know where was the discussion between R Kotler and R Soloveitchik regarding women serving in Israeli army happening? In a dorm? In Boston?
yankel > Hafets Hayim was niftar already in 1933 .
> VY’M was printed AFTER establishment of the medina in 1948.ya, I was also confused. This shows that people who make up claims at some point go overboard.
.> ad hominem
it is not. I asked hakatan to expand on R Elchonon’s Torah and he is declining. Maybe he now decided to start a new thread and this will be great. Do you not find it strange when certain rabbis are only quoted in political context as if they are party representatives. This is demeaning to Talmidei Chachamim – as much as when selectively quoting some of them while claiming “all gedolim say”. We saw in some more serious discussions that, for example, Ohr Sameach and Netziv had way more nuanced view of early zionists.
in general, it is a feature of modern discussions to selectively support their side and hope that the truth will be understood from unlimited “free speech”. This is not a bad idea, but well below the Torah standard of emes where one should acknowledge all views and then advocate for his own. An unfortunate sign of assimilation even among those who claim to be against anything goyish.
HaKatan, you are just confirming my observation – you seem not to care for Rav Elchonon Torah and rather then sharing his thoughts with us, you are only interested in his position against Zionists. So, you refer to him because he happen to agree to your position, not because you are impressed by his Torah and became his student. This is a very self-serving way to (mis-)use divrei Talmidei Chachamim.
To clarify on the differences: in 1940s, R Soloveitchik indeed focused on working with American Jews. He writes that these educated young Jews are not getting help from either reform, for obvious reasons, nor from recently arrived European Rabbis, who are not able to relate to American Jews, including those educated in sciences and philosophy. Wider, his goal for YU was to train in an organized way congregational rabbis who can deal with local issues: marriages, davening, kashrus, parsha dvar Torah and in this way raise the level and prevent assimilation among American Jews. He even suggests to Mizrachi to change their effort in America from collecting money and people for EY to helping educate American Jews. Reasoning: Jews in Israel will stay Jewish, but next generation of American children will assimilate unless an effort is made to teach them. He was not thinking that only his approach is the right one. He is very appreciative of Chabad efforts (under previous L Rebbe) to send shluchim to small towns all over US.
I don’t think there was nothing objectionable in this activity for anyone who cared about Yidden. Possibly later when YU approach attracted also those in the orbit of other rabbis who worked with “frum” communities only, then these rabbis became not comfortable and had to convince their students that R Soloveitchik approach is not appropriate in order to protect their own path.
somejew> i didn’t realize the order matters for such people.
Those whose main occupation is rabanut can simply be called Rabbis unless in some formal situation. Rabbi Dr Twersky is mentioned this way because his writings are about his “Dr” work. So, would a Rabbi who teaches computer science or philosophy.
The way you use it, it sounds like “Dr” is not a good word in your mouth. I am sure when you need medical advice, you make sure to go to someone who has no “Dr”.
I am actually nogea b’davar here, so maybe you can help answer my question: I know some black hat individuals with positions in the community with whom I occasionally have to interact. For some reason, they always address me as “Mr AAQ”. Most other people use first name or “Dr AAQ” (even though I don’t do surgeries). Is this just a style or he means that he is a Rabbi, and I am chopped liver?
Evalimoshavlo, hilarious! I indeed heard this from school officials: don’t worry, trust us, we know better what your kid needs.
XCtl, Jews use money as Kiddushin, there is nothing wrong for a woman to look for financial stability from a hatan.
Al pi halakha?! I am longing for the times when this site was seriously moderated.