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YYA> Even if I don’t know what exactly ‘Chareidi’ is,
You keep harping on the “charedi” self-identification. I don’t really care. Was Rambam charedi? I asked here before – and would he be now?
When I started wondering whether Rambam in our times will go to Lakewood or to MIT first (nobody answered here), someone said – to Lakewood, because after MIT, he will not be admitted to Lakewood.I gave an example of two T’Ch who mutually respected each other, disagreed on a number of issues, and also were both connected with multiple other respected rabbis, with whom both sometimes agreed, sometimes disagreed. Let’s say, you are a pashute kosher Jews totally disconnected from this internal football, say, a Persian or a Teimani, landing in NYC. You know what Torah is, you can read it by heart, you know Rambam and S’A … So, you listen to these two T’Ch. Do you have a way to select which one of them is the “real Torah”, or maybe you decide that both have value, and you show both a good Sephardishe respect.
For example, on co-ed high schools – R Soloveitchik writes certain rationales for this. He was certainly aware of all possible objections. In fact, his first response from a shaila from NY board in 1950s was that he is not going to respond to such a provocative topic without an assurance that someone needs it. Only when they wrote back that they bind themselves to follow his psak, he writes a full answer. In truth, some of his rationales are somewhat outdated and may not apply in our times – and a lot of serious MO schools are indeed not co-ed any more.
Ok, I’ll drop silly abbreviations as you seem to be in pain as it is … Obviously, people meet diffferent people. In my environment, MOs with whom I learn, and have kiddush too, are engineers. professors, doctors, who are mostly respected in their fields and who are pretty much cut out for learning and they engage in that learning despite living busy life. A rav is sometimes passing our group in beis midrash gets to quickly answer (yes, no, dont know) accumulated questions from the maggid shiur (engineer) with full respect. Our class does not have to rely on Rashi for old-french rendering of greek turn, the professor explains greek terms directly, and the subtle details of sanhedrin rulings are highlighted by comparison with 19th century US supreme court cases, when appropriate. I sometimes learned already the same sugya in a more traditional environment, and the discussion is always interesting.
Re: Avigdor Miller. He is indeed probably concerned primarily about separating his students from less observant drinkers. But, his opposition to MO is more principled. I presume he knew well what he was talking about based on his early learning in Boston. And his writings about modern life and science address those issues. And while he has good insights into these issues, he is not always at the level of educated professionals in these discussions.
rescue> Try walking into a store in one of our communities not dressed in the latest outfits. People won’t treat you like a human being.
I walked into the Bobove shul on shabbos some decades ago, dressed in a decidedly modern suit. When the Rebbe Z’L walked in briskly, he made a beeline from the row of shtreimels waiting to greet him to shake my hand.
Chofetz Chaim was against people reading or selling newspapers – that were distributing things that were, or were becoming, publicly known at that point. I don’t think he gave reshus to distribute those.
YYA> ‘cursing’ a king, not ‘criticizing’.
the difference is not that big given how people “criticize”.years ago, I actually got a psak to behave with respect towards pretty wicked (literally, not metaphorically is it is often used) political Jews. So wicked that I am, like Baba b Buta, scared to say their names even anonymously. When I responded – how can I show respect to such a vile person, the (charedi) Rav said “just show respect to his position”
I understand your attitudes towards your PM. Most other people in Israel have their own reasons to not like him – except when they need him… My attitude towards Bibi is biased by an early observation. In the mid 90s when he was dealing with difficult Clinton-time political situation, I happened to read his father’s book on Abarbanel. The main thesis of the book seems to be that despite all his involvement with the government, Abarbanel somehow missed that moment when expulsion edict was promulgated. He tried everything he could to fight back, but failed. Seems like a life of achievements ended with a failure at the most important moment. But that was not the end of the story – Abarbanel switched to supporting the exiles in places where they settled, giving them nechama and an attitude on how to look to rebuild in the future. It struck me at that moment how this was prescient to what the author’s son was dealing with in Israeli politics. I shared this observation with several people and they found it reasonable. That was before Bibi had to do with several other crises over these years …
> Wishful thinking?
yes, but better than an alternative. One of the motivations for LH is said to be an indirect way to boost own self-esteem. It is silly to always claim how smart you, or your group, are – but you can achieve the same relative boost by tearing others down.so on Scotsman, let’s take American example from 1950s (because I am more familiar with it). Here are R Kotler and R Soloveitchik having different attitudes towards a number of social issues. Both from impeccable pedigree, both T’Ch, both members of moetzes. both somewhat differ from established rabbonim of the time. There were rabbis who did not like RYBS approach, but there were also those who did not like R Kotler’s approach.
In our times, many would select the opinion of one over the other based on the group they belong to. How would you select one over the other at that time before each of them built their community?
coffee, refuah shleimah. I hope you appreciate your Jewish doctor who is more likely to be MO than a BMG grad.
Part of the argument is that “MO” is not well defined. It could mean students of R Soloveitchik (TMP true MO) or it could mean your local members of kiddush club (KMO kiddush MO). …
coffee> Those things are only because of the modern part of modern orthodoxy in other words if those weren’t American values I don’t think modern orthodox would be machmir in those things
Could be. But then NMOs (non-modern O) might be machmir on something just because Americans are for it …Presumably, TMOs who were to live in, say, Stalin’s Russia would not be copying Stalin’s values. Anyway, values are values. As I mentioned, being an erliche and qualified doctor produces a lot of chesed, and I hope you have a good one and appreciate him.
> Also “Torah lishmah”? Who are you kidding? The only way to get MO to a shiur is by offering food
These are KMOs. TMOs learn either at their shul or at a local kollel after a long professional day. They choose which classes to attend without a need to show kavod to a high-position rav. When they teach, they don’t worry whether someone will pay them or that someone will find their teaching deficient … H’V I am saying that NMOs are generally learning lo lishmah, but there are challenges to overcome. Some of my kids are volunteering in kiruv, and they have several NMOs and MOs participating. NMOs are regularly absent when there is a paying babysitting opportunity, or even when they fulfilled their school “chessed” quote.
YYA> What precisely defines one as a “true Chareidi” is an interesting discussion in itself, but SOMETHING must be a red line.
We were discussing potential variety of halachik opinions, and I don’t think I used “true charedi”. Too lazy to scroll up, but I don’t recognize that there is “charedi halakha” separate from stam halakha.
> Something some Sephardim are machmir on, but it isn’t really a chiyuv even for them.
right. But this particular rav paskened like that for his congregation, but I never saw him carrying anything himself. I was considering jokingly offer him a something in the street until he mentioned that he used the eruv when he needed to move his mother in a wheelchair.
> is deliberately trying to maintain an endless state of [at least low simmer] war and fear in order to strengthen his political position.
this is an example of LK we are discussing. In US, politicians are almost exempt from libel laws in favor of free expression. Do we have a similar exemption for Jewish public figures, whether they are tzadikkim or not? Bava, in Bava Basra, is very careful not to criticize a king, presumably mostly out of fear, but maybe not also. Maybe if we ascribe good intentions to politicians, they’ll have to behave accordingly?
YYA> business owner from releasing disparaging information
are you saying that newspapers nogea bdavar? Well, their “business” is to provide information. But if you are quoting Chofetz Chaim, he was considering working for church preferably to selling newspapers anyway!
> do or don’t apply in the context of social media such as the “Coffee Room”,
this is not new. There were anonymous writings throughout history, including Jewish… You probably want to analyze it through separate damages to (1) target (2) speaker (3) audience.
1: target. First idea that there is no damage as nobody knows you … I am thinking if someone calls AAQ an idiot or an ignoramus, I am not really affected as I trusting more opinions I hear in person. Except they might not say it to my face. Some posters might be affected though. It is often clear from writing when a person is sensitive, and you probably want to take that into account. Most importantly, and that is what I was talking about, often here people really write about groups. So, when I write about “charedim”, halochos related to groups of people apply.
2. the speaker is definitely affected by the shmutz he is saying. Anonymity makes it worse, as people talk the way they would not in person.
3. audience is also affected. Again, may be worse due to wide dissemination. And also time. someone can read this ten years later.
Baruch> You want to argue with Trumas Hadeshen? With the Gemara?
I don’t think your opponent said that the sefer is fake. But it is possible to bring some of the opinions, rather than a variety of different opinions. Especially, when the issue is so sensitive. So, the question for you is – are there are other opinions and how we see all of them in different context. For example, about 100 years ago, sheitels were not considered tzanua, just the opposite.
YYA> A broad consensus of experts i.e. Gedolei Yisroel, say one thing, and ‘AAQ’ says other things. If you have your own ‘experts’, so follow them. We will follow ours.
I think we got to some point here: if we have an important communal issue – can every “religious group” follow their own derech or is there a need for finding a common solution. Let’s for simplicity exclude non-religious Jews, just two groups of religious Jews – and this issue is either joining current IDF or IDF consisting of both groups of Jews.
YYA, a good question about definitions. We had some exotic discussions with some posters here, but I don’t think you are in the camp of denying validity to observant Jews who disagree with you. What you seem to be claiming, though, is that charedim are “a religious group”. This troubles me. And this may indeed be the source of differences.
I have no problem with, say, Teimanim or Yakkis to have their own minhagim, even Chassidim :). Even then, everyone can eat or not eat rice on Pesach, but if we were to form a joint army or social services, it would not be right if rules were different for different groups. Presumably, a beis din would be formed to develop a uniform policy. I know, for example, sephardi rabbis who allow their congregants to use Ashkenazi eruvin that are not al pi Sephardim.
YYA> They don’t care because they don’t care. If Chareidim wouldn’t have large families ח״ו, do you seriously think the Chilonim would in any way change their lifestyle
Population issue was (is?) part of Zionist discourse. Government would use more resources to subsidize larger families. Maybe even more than now, as now “subsidies for Nth child” is a code word for paying charedim and, thus, controversial. Would this work? I am not sure – it seems that world experience with encouraging more children by money is not working well. But I am explicitly comparing this with Charedim/IDF. If ISrael were to rely on a charedi army right now – that also would not be easy.
YYA> You said “charedim don’t care about serving because chilonim protect them.” The way you worded that statement is כפירה .. “Chareidim don’t go to the army because Chilonim do go.”
So, (again, this is a Socratic logical discussion, not a social policy) let’s say chilonim go to the army, but they are bad at that. The country is, H’V, open to attack, any neighboring country can send missiles or invade. You will then say, there is no halachik reason to organize defense or do something else – flee, negotiate, bribe, etc? Can your charedi town ask Iron Dome to exclude your town from the system? I think this would be a real kefirah.
YYA> Correct. If the Chilonim WOULDN’T go to the army, there would be no problem for us to go…
excellent attitude. And very forward-looking to the times of presumed charedi majority. There are certain areas where charedim already excel – hatzolah, hevra kadisha. Is there any other military-oriented services you can start now? police your towns against terrorists and non-halachik demonstrators? uncover and prevent your chevra from clicking on Iranian messages? simply, having your own military training, organizing units that can later join army on your own conditions. Many countries in the region have tribal militias.
YYA> I was questioning the toeles, and even the Halachic permissibility, of posting the name here on YWN or similar forums.
I agree here. Probably, whatever need there is to publicize is achieved by the court publishing the name, so anyone can find the information already just googling for the name. Some write that one of the concerns behind lashon hara prohibition is a need for society to presume and encourage the idea that normative behavior is to be yashar. If we constantly talk about negatives, then you get the attitude of “everyone does it”. In this aspect, it is interesting that you and several others showed concern for this misguided individual, but at the same time many post negatively-framed opinions about people from other groups of Jews, without slight concern for LH. I am sure people will bring up explanations why those groups are “really bad”, but the social consequences are the same – if everyone does it, I can do something too … You see sometimes posts like – they let Arabs do that ….
YYA> … They also don’t have the slightest inkling how to hide their tracks,
You read this in spy novels. The game is a little different now. Internet allows cheap access to multitudes of not very smart people. You can talk them, or threaten, into lots of silly things. Posting inflammatory posters (maybe pro and against draft, or anything else); making pictures of government offices or officials; putting something on fire. This is happening all over the world. If you live your life erliche, you should not have problems. When someone contacts you and ask for some silly information, simply do not reply.
YYA> It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim
sounds like an answer Moshe gave at the sne … well, that also happened only once in history … this is a self-protective instinct to go away from others not just to Torah but even only to the Torah taught “by your Rebbeim” …
sounds like someguy also got swindled by persians, so he now needs to shift the blame.
It looks like there is a machlokes here between a rational explanation – hair enhances beauty v. kabbalistic where some other values become important
interesting question on Lashon Hara. It seems to be the practice of most countries to publicize court outcomes with rate exceptions – minors, state secrets.
These might be different from beis din rules, but these rules have some reasoning behind them – openness helps prevent abuses of the court in general.Similarly, courts that use juries who are amei haaretz are not following Sh’A, but the system again enables society check with their common sense against government abuses of power.
It is a valid question – should you try to move Israeli system closer to halachik here. What would happen if all court proceedings were publicized only when there is clear danger, like child abuse. Would you prohibit employers from doing background checks, or would these checks be done using a closed system? Similarly, with shidduchim. Local (charedi) Rosh Yeshiva advised me that “his only requirement for children shidduchim was that parents be honest in business”. I guess he trusted the shadchanim or maybe googled court cases himself … As it is, you call references, esp from Jewish school and it is “he is a great boy/girl” and you are listening for the tone of the voice if they are waiting for a hard question. Sometimes you ask to clarify the issue you found out, and the menahel becomes so relieved “oh, you know about it, so let me explain the details …..”. So, my intuition is that we err on the side of privacy more often than other way around.
I guess one if the questions is whether there is an issue of deterrence – if a person get a lenient punishment, would it change behavior of future criminals or idiots? And to what degree halakha takes deterrence into account.
Explanation for the recruiting scheme is that it is an escalating game: first a person is asked to paint a message on a wall; then carry a bag to another place; then make a picture of a public person near his house … at some point, the agent understands that the “innocent” things he did might already take him to prison or at least damage his reputation, so he agrees to the next step … out of 10 such agent, one might move further.
You can see a possible societal impact, as you are saying, as it happens between Russia and Ukraine: both sides recruit or threaten people to go put government offices on fire and such – the damage is not big, but it affects the society.
Another article is saying that Shin Bet is worrying that charedim might be easier targets here because they might not know about such things, so go spread the word.
YYA> Which is actually why I started this thread on a different topic.
Back to your original question, maybe there is a mutual reliance here. To simpifY:
charedim don’t care about serving because chilonim protect them.
chilonim don’t care about population growth, because charedim have big families.What would happen, if all chilonim suddenly decamped to Uganda. I presume charedim would run to man the guns, F-35s, and iron dome. Or to the airport. It might be very confusing at the beginning as a lot of training is required. Presumably, chilonim will be responsible in their retreat and they’ll train charedim first.
Now, reverse to your question. What would happen if all Charedim decamp for Stamford Hill? Chilonim will start worrying about population. They’ll have some apartments in Yerushalaim to move in. Government will start paying for having more children, but it is not easy to change basic family structure.. Maybe harder than to train for flying F-35s. Some might want to convert bunch of non-Jews …
Maybe in both scenarios, RZs will save the day – by being able to relate to both camps and teach them to either fly F-35s or to keep zone defense when there are more kids than parents in the house.
So, now that we realize that everyone is important, maybe time to start respecting each other now. The hint to that is gemorah in Megilah, making megillah reading on market days to accommodate farmers who bring you food.
YYA, thanks for the answers, I think this is the core issue:
> Now let’s talk about “taking advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate”.
> There are about half a dozen main arguments why Chareidim, myself included, do not feel any guilt about this whatsoever,
.> The whole point of life is to do רצון השם יתברך ולדבקה בו.
and long poetic elaboration, confirmed by the rabbeim.i don’t understand. My argument is simple and has nothing to do with chilonim or goyim: you are openly taking advantage of others, making them protect you. This sounds like gezelah, aggravated that this is about taking life risks, not just money. There is no davening or learning that can override such aveiros. Sheretz byado. Rambam is pretty clear on that aspect of teshuva.
Maybe the only of a “half a dozen” arguments that seems to make sense to me is that if government makes arrangements to allow you not to serve, then you got a contract with other Israelis through legit democracy. So even if many are unhappy, it is legit. But we are now talking about possible change in the legal situation. So, if you have a choice between being a gazlan, doing something that you don’t think is allowed and leaving, leaving is the ehrliche Torah answer. I am wondering whether you can present this argument to your Rav and let me know his reply.
Thanks for referring to Rambam. My question is whether anyone comments on this, suggesting that EY is different here.
> Since there is basically wall to wall consensus on this in the entire Chareidi world, so for all of us the issue is closed.
a true scotsman here? Or as one Manhattan lady exclaimed – how did Nixon won the election if I don’t know anyone who voted for him?
Who made “charedi” a synonym to “Torah”? If after we went through various logical aspects of this, the final answer is based on “I am right because I am right”, then it is an indication of a weakness in the position.redleg > From the times of the Gemorah, hair covering was a siman of marriage and was the general custom.
you may be right, because this was also minhag of men. A student came up to an amorah and the latter asked him why he is not wearing a sudar. The yungerman explained that this is ok because he not yet married. Then, the amorah chewed him out for not being married yet.
YYA: By that definition there may already be a majority. But Chareidim are growing far faster than any of those groups, except for the far right of the RZ who are becoming more Chareidi…
AAQ: “will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?”
YYA: Women instructors for men, or women in the army altogether, is אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות. With or without sheitels. Kashrus is literally the least of the problems in the IDF. Hallel on Yom Ha’atzamot? For what exactly?
Let’s put Devorah aside … So this seems to be the core question – so we are having or soon will have a kosher majority in Israel. By forging a joint position, this makes it possible to resolve all the issues you are concerned about in a democratic way (supreme court will eventually give up too in the face of a sustained majority). Are charedim capable of joining other kosher Yidden in forming a Torah-true country? According to my theory – yes, as most of the strict boundaries in the charedi community are for protection. So, now protection will not be needed.
The rest is a tactical question of chicken and egg – can charedim start cooperating and help bring kosher Israel faster or will you be waiting for someone else to deal with the problems and will join only when it is safe. Whole Chumash is about being leaders in solving issues, not waiting until someone else will create a perfect environment for you.
AAQ said: “Everyone was “frum” in Lita contrary to Germany – until suddenly everyone stopped.”
YYA: Ever heard of the “Haskalah” movement?this was not out of nowhere, haskala was already in western Europe. Were Litvaks ready? no. Alter rebbe tried to slow down its arrival by helping the Czar fight Napoleon, at least he understood what was going to happen … But it is very shortsighted to blame maskilim – their appearance was natural consequence of the progress in science & technology – to which, at the time, neither Jews nor goyim had a good answer. Now, we do. But, at the time, our answer was inadequate. These are not only my thoughts. Similarly, R Soloveitchik asks – what if Jews at the Roman times came up with something like Spanish-time philosophical works – this, more timely, response, would have let the world understand Jewish ideas better at the time they were absorbing some of them into a new religion.
coffee,
when the kid R Soloveitchik was sick, his father hesitated to add logs into fire for doctor to see better, so the grandfather, Chaim Brisker, added it himself – machmir on p/n, not meikel on shabbos. Now, R Moshe was modernishe, while R Chaim was not, but, metaphorically, a MO Talmid Chochom survived due to that fire!your question is good, except that it provokes LH, so maybe we can just discuss general social trends. And it is also loaded as MO may be R Soloveitchik and maybe your local opera lover… Still: MO are more machmir on fulfilling metubah obligations of supporting the wives according to their level; educating their children in umanut; supporting Jews in trouble, whether in Israel or in USSR; everyday middos – safe and ehrliche driving, not driving against “one way” signs; learning Torah lishma; understanding Torah in the context of other info which sometimes leads to better understanding of a sugya; kiddush Hashem in their activities in public sphere; avoiding theft and tax problems in business; mesiras nefesh in paying for day schools and shul membership;
Pick which ones you want me to justify
YYA> Dati Leumi Rabbanim: “IDF Is Violating Orders;
this is the right way to deal with the issue – they participate, and then deal with problem that arise.> Ehrlich” is defined by Hashem and His Torah. Not by your personal sensibilities
Ehrlich is about obligations to the others. I understand you are taking offense of my suggestion to leave the country. This is purely a socratic argument here. You plan to take advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate. You propose a payment that they find insufficient. Then, don’t use the service. You can live in EY outside of medina.> No one is looking to “get some acceptance” from the poritz.
When you live under Poritz and have a chance to live in a normal country, you need to move. See Rambam/desert. Any commentaries there that discuss whether and how is EY different in this aspect?> Because before there was a medinah and an IDF the Maskilim, Zionists and Secularists just loved us.
this is over the top. this is not current Israel.
> Don’t hold your breath waiting to see Belzer soldiers…
you know israeli politics better than I do, so maybe this is a ploy. But presumably rabbonim sign something they can agree with, they just hope that the plan will not work out. why then others do not sign to this? Could it be that you are projecting your uncompromising position onto them?
> the children belong to the Chareidim.
It is suggestive, but history is not always predictable. We had generations where things shifted a lot. Conservative movement in US was very strong 40% of population – and now it is not, they just stopped having children and enthusiasm towards the ideology. Everyone was “frum” in Lita contrary to Germany – until suddenly everyone stopped. If you continue ignoring social and ideological problems with charedism, you are making your community weaker, not stronger.it is more predictable that Israel will have observant majority – if you add RZ, stam observant and traditional Yidden together. Then, it will not be kashrus out of Ben Gurion’s sentimentalism, but because knesset will consistently vote for it. Is this exciting enough? Something unimaginable 100 years ago. Will we all be able to run the country together in an erliche way, or we will continue squabble? will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?
rebM > EVEN those that agree under some circumstances to seme sore of chareidi devision/s in the army, that is only for those anyway not learning.
Any bachur or yungerman that is learning must be excemp from all and any other kind of service.This is a pretty reasonable position, with some details open to negotation – who counts as “learning”, and what quality of “learning”.
Mir mashgiach used to plead with the bachurim: I am signing your exemption as toraso umanoso, I never lied in my life, don’t make me into aliar, learn at full strength. What are the current mashgichim telling to you or your children – can someone quote?
reb M> The topic here is that the chareidim are doing their part by raising large families, and why is this issue not part of the equation of “sharing the burden”?
it is in the gemorah whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own – who says your blood is redder. And, as with all contracts, they require agreement of both sides. If you can convince the rest of Israelis of your mailos, I’ll have no problems with that at all! So, the question becomes: why don’t non-charedi Israelis value great charedi contribution in growing families, learning Torah, providing religious services to others, having great middos, inviting foreign investment, providing kiddush Hashem and kiddush medina story in international papers about great Torah lifestyle, etc?
You can’t blame this on anti-religious sentiment – B’H majority of Israelis are either observant or traditional, with many others indifferent rather than anti-religious.
YYA> no one is asking Satmar, and Satmar probably wouldn’t answer
maybe this is important. When someone is not involved in an issue – it becomes possible to express extremist opinions. Others, both RZ and charedi, who are involved in politics, have to be responsible.
YYA> anyone will be forced to vote on pain of death?
maybe not death, but in some countries, citizens are obligated to vote and probably need to pay fines if they don’t. We have now people complaining that evil medinah is not paying them enough subsidies as destroying Torah. Anti-voters will say the same when having to pay for not voting.
Happy> Ruchniyus is for goyim.
YYA> “Ruchniyus” without Halacha is for Goyim (and is also fake.) Ruchniyus within Halacha is very much for Jews.Happy, nothing personal, but this is a great example of the effect of other cultuers on us. This one goes back to middle ages, according to some. Christians focused on ruchniyus and “beliefs”, so the natural response was to de-emphasize that and focus on value of actions only. Was this response useful to prevent assimilation? yes. Is it a true expression of Torah? not exactly,
yankel> rabenu nissim states that every jew has a right to live in EY and
> no secularist and no medina and no AAQ and no somejew can take that right away from him
> no one can tell him to go away and live in judenrein and dangerous placessome ridiculous claims aside that you do not subscribe to, I presume, religious Jews currently live in EY thanks to the zionist efforts (secular, and religious, and supporters from other countries). My only suggestion to go away is only if you consider it impossible to comply with the laws of the land. What was R Nissim’s suggestion – go and refuse pay taxes to Muslim authorities? I presume he suggested to find a way to live there according to their regulations. But if you actually believe that it is not possible – do like Avraham did during the hunger – go to Mitzrayim.
There are reports that the new army regulations for charedim was done with approval of Beltzer and Karlin. So, if at least their followers will join this, we will see in a year or two, whether this approach works for both sides. Some progress,
YYA> No one has the right to force bochurim into a situation where
So, you are now abandoning attempts to defend your position and return to proclaiming your inalienable right to be free from Zionist yetzer harah.
Let me try to accept your position for a minute. Then, the erliche way would be to either leave the country or to seek mechilah from those who risk their life to defend yours, while you do not want to/not able to (there is a chabad story about chasidim telling a balgula that they “cannot” help him push the horse out of the mud, and he replying – “you can, you just dont want to”). Try to compensate with some other activities, while admitting that it is never a full compensation – organize volunteer help with army supplies; work in place of soldiers (this might require getting a college degree); babysit their children; visit soldiers in hospitals – do this en masse, and maybe you’ll get some acceptance.
YYA, great, we seem to agree on Romans and on practical goodness of democracies in our times. You also brought Brisker to support my observations of the Zionism of the “anti-Zionism”. I might have referred to that episode subconsciously, I do not pretend to have Brisker sense of humor. There is a similar observation of philo- and antisemites – both have excessive expectations of Jews and can easily go from one state to another.
But we seem to narrow down your argument to the “halakha” that non-Torah Jewish government in EY is by definition illegitimate. I presume this tradition from Chazon Ish and R Wosner is strong, but, as posted by you, is not very impressive so far – oral message, no references to classical halocha, and plenty of middle-of-the-road rabbis who did not hold by this. I would agree, though, that throughout Tanach and Gemora, Hashem and T’Ch “demand more” from Jewish leaders than from an average goyishe tribe chief. But if you try to apply that to modern Israel, you can’t avoid taking into account all political circumstances, leaving a lot of place to be meikel. So, my conclusion is – you choose to take this position, halakha is not forcing you.
qwerty, I did not read, or was not paying close attention to the reasons behind R Miller’s position. I think ressons you quote are secondary – dressing as Ben Torah as clearly something traditionally inappropriate for a non-Ben Torah; and choice of particular black clothing is a random recent convention. Same for daas Torah – this is all secondary to social truth: many of R Miller’s followers will be lost and get assimilated without these stringencies. That already happened with previous generation of Jews in America (not because they followed R Hirsh or R Soloveitchik, but because they were stum ignorant and with no community support).
So, R Miller’s advice was valid for his listeners. But I wish it were possible to protect people without pretending these measures are core Torah. As a result, the followers now focus on these things as the essence of their Torah. Maybe they should read the rest of R Miller, or maybe some R Soloveitchik also.
Well, if the husband can ask his wife to forgo the key ketubah requirement and allow her to support his learning, then it will be fair for the breadwinner wife to ask to rescind something from her obligation. Up to her, whether she wants to spend her money or wings or forgo them altogether. And if the husband wants her to be strict, he should start with keeping up with his own obligations.
Dovid, a good analogy. See OC 317:10 saying that dangerous animals with deadly bite can be killed on shabbos even if they are not pursuing anyone, otherwise – only when chasing.
Also, see an article by R Dovid Sukenik that starts with ” In cases in which leaving snow or ice on the ground would pose an immediate danger, the snow may be removed, as pikuach nefesh overrides Shabbat. This scenario is not very common, however. The scope of this article is limited to cases in which there is no imminent danger. “. I think the Rav does not live in upstate NY …
He also says that there are authorities who say snow is muktze (Pri Megadim) and there are those (majority) that do not. Even for those that say it is muktze, it follows from Taz on bones that one move it away.
Another concern: uvda chol, this will allow doing it for a mitzva – guests, walking to shul, tzaar, financial loss (town ticket?)
There are other concerns – making shabbat like chol – that probably only applies in Anchorage and Gulag – that have snowstorms for the whole season.
somejew> it’s obvious Rav Miller is talking about tinokos shenibu that are still part of amecha
suddenly you found your tinokos. No, in this case, R Miller talks about observant Jews with different hashkafa that R Miller considers dangerous.
We can probably better understand this machlokes if we look back at Chasidim/Litvakim schism. Chasidism was attractive to people who were outside of litvish learning circles. And, eventually, common grounds were found. Similarly, R Shimshon Hirsh and R Soloveichik are talking to different people from Satmar rebbe and R Miller. So, R Miller may be right that MO approach may be a “virus” for his listeners.
Red Adair, a good point. There might be disagreements between poskim on what is allowed.
Note also difference between private and public policy. Privately, if my driveway is too dangerous, maybe I should not shovel, but stay home and have a great shabbos with my family. But, if there is a public path, there will be enough “heroes” including elderly who will venture out and risk their health, so it becomes pikuach nefesh to protect them. Or maybe to put barriers and signs that travel is prohibited 🙂
YYA> . Everyone has ‘obligations’ that if fulfilled protect all of the things modern legal systems attempt to protect through the institution of ‘rights’.
exactly. This is what I was saying to posters who claimed “rights”. To your next argument, that we are asking for Israeli government rights according to their rules, I have no problem with that – elect your knesset members and petition the court, but posters wanted more than that.
reb-mutche> Would you have said this when Nazi Germany ‘passed laws’ democratically,
see my reply to YYA, I agree that democracies do not have to be moral. Rome was not. Sdom was not. Just in modern times, democracies seem to be way more moral than anyone else. In the case of Germany, it was a weak short-lived democracy (Weimar Republic) that fell under a dual attack of communists and nazis, enabling nazis to get control under plurality and it stopped being a democracy at some point there.
> The current situation has NOTHING to do with the army needing more soliders.
> There are more non chareidi ‘draft dodgers’ than chareidi draft dodgers.I think you feel uncomfortable with the situation (unlike some people/posters who simply declare – we don’t care, they are bad people – and you are trying to develop an argument to support your position. I don’t think it works out well. First, according to published numbers up to 80% of draft dodgers right now are charedi. Maybe these numbers are skewed and maybe they were not such a year ago. Even if you are right, it is not a good argument: all other communities provide soldiers, charedim do not. Putting aside a moral argument of why your blood is redder than theirs, there is a practical argument – a small remaining percentage of other communities are people with some problems or valid excuses. Totality of charedi community should include a lot of capable soldiers, even if you make a fair exemption for true learners.
> Almost all politicians now pushing for the draft of yeshiva bachurim, have in the past agreed to exempt yeshiva bachurim in exchange for chareidi support in ther parties.
Don’t confuse process with outcomes. Politicians are there to represent voter interests and find some resolutions to conflicts “so that people do not swallow each other alive” in the words of pirkei avos. They all might have their own personal interests. They come up with some consensus despite that.
Also, look at the history of the issue – there were multiple compromises with expectation that charedi community will come up with some solution, but it did not happen, so politicians, and their voters, have a right to be frustrated from their point of view.
some> many jews get arrested while trying to leave
I am not sure what yeshiva is responsible for your education. You seem to be totally oblivious to the idea of emes in a discussion. I, again, urge you to do what Yoav did – go back to your rebbe and ask him whether he taught you to talk like that or you were just an inattentive child.
You wanted to say that people who knew they will be obligated to serve in the army, chose to stay in the country, and then got arrested for violating army orders. These people had time to leave before they were called up. They did not care.
YYA> This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.)
This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.
Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …
Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?
> BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have דינא דמלכותא status, rather they are considered ליסטים, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.
I heard this opinion. I would appreciate if you could give reasoning and source behind it. My guess it would be either:
1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.
2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.
maybe you can learn this sugya from Bava Mtzeiya 107 – requirement to clear up your forest along the river for people who are pulling boats.
There is also “tragedy of commons” – see people crossing a major street through snow, jumping from one snowbank to another. Nobody would think to bring a shovel and create a path for the tzibbur – unless the government sends a crew. “Nobody in the history of the world washed a rental car” (Lawrence Summers).
R Huna would go around town and check the walls – falling walls were a major danger at the time. If the owner had money, he would make them fix the walls. If the owner could not – R Huna would pay for the repairs. Same thing with snow – if the owner is neglecting it, then tzibus should ask him nicely, maybe stop giving him aliyot. If the owner is out, is elderly, why not send some bochrim to clean it.
yankel > I want to live in EY free from secular coercion
> and that is my definite rightThis is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.
Hashem put you in a certain environment, which is more exciting than many generations of Yidden had. You can live in EY; you can learn without being afraid of Roman soldiers or commissars catching you; you have a healthy number of religious Jews around you – some agree with you on everything, others – argue on some; you can participate in the politics of that state. You would think that you’ll be thanking Hashem for this, go to work, fulfil your civil obligations, learn, teach others …
Maybe, there is here another modern phenomenon – presumed safety. As helicopter parents watch for their kids, expecting to control every challenge they get, you can’t live with a thought that someone in your community will be confronted with a minute challenge – talking to non-religious Jews, having to endure a woman in charge of your basic training, having to get up and leave from a meeting because of kol isha or anything else inappropriate.
I don’t think qwerty any my quotes differ that much. I presume R Miller was familiar with what MO stands for, as he spent a little time at Boston yeshiva where R Soloveitchik was the head, and R Miller’s FIL was also teaching. So, his bottom line is that MO are part of Klal Yisroel but he disagrees with them and considers them a danger to the community he leads.
R Miller has a lot of good insights in human psychology and a lot of his observations are useful to his followers. Interestingly, R Miller himself ventures into science and politics. His advise is “learn a lesson from Viet Nam; if you don’t – Hashem will send next lesson closer to home”. Possibly, he does not want everyone to learn those lessons, just to listen to him learning the lessons. Anyway, I wish students of R Miller listen to his message to them, rather than focus on the boundaries he created to protect them from bad influences.
PS As to quotes, I suggest going to either R Miller’s tapes or books. Recent popular excerpts published on and off-line may be taken out of context or selected with a bias.