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NP, right, the point here seems to be that these obligations contradict each other sometimes
If you present someone’s view, you should analyze it from the what you know. We don’t know what SR or REW would say if there were to see Yerushalaim with yeshivos and Jewish soldiers. So, you were asked a simple question that arises from SR shitah – what was the path to non-Z future for EY and also Yidden in DP camps, Muslim countries, Russia. SR did not know about ISIS, you do.
I am not so sure they can make great soldiers given a combination of weak beliefs and poor judgment. They should be given some safe tasks first, like guarding prisons or talking to remaining demonstrators until they prove themselves.
SQRT > we cannot endanger millions of Jews, and our holy places, for the Satmar Rav’s unrealistic fantasy.
I have to defend the honor of SR. It was not a fantasy before WW2. There was British empire and League of Nations with all lofty goals of minority rights. And maybe even after WW2 one could have imagined some Esav rule. But now after we know limits of Western participation in Middle East and other “third world” and history of all Arab countries. It is not Rebbe’s fault that someone continue clinging to the idea that did not survive the reality test.
anyway, to be clear about the context, my original story was not about whole congregation routinely violating shabbos. It was about people will long-time ties to the shul, whose families started the shul, who felt marginal connection and were coming on yomim norayim and the shul cut them off. Now, all the chabadnikim will be spending years trying to find grandchildren of these people and maybe bring back a small number of them.
> Even the Young Israel shuls that used to have an open parking lot on Shabbos have all long closed them.
“Even”? As if YI was not shomer shabbos l’hathila. I had a sephardi rabbi complaining about (many years ago) when he was trying to raise up his community while renting space from YI. When a Sephardi congregant parked on Shabbat right in front of the shul in a “no stopping” zone – a YI zealot ran in shouting about shabbos. The Rav felt that if he were to give this message to the congregant, he’ll lose him – so he simply asked him to move the cat from “no stopping”, Now, grandchildren of that man are all in yeshivos despite YI love for shabbat
pekak > Have you ever learned Chovas Halevavos?
I admit I did not – I do not read Arabic! I was simply making a pun on the poster referring to heart as a Reform thing.
ujm > All those Arab behaviors you’re describing started after that advent of Zionism and the Zionist agitation to take over political control of Palestine.
I don’t think this argument holds. As already mentioned, in last 100 years, Arabs committed atrocities to other minorities and to other Arabs. As one of my Israeli friends said years ago: What is the mailah of being a cousin to a person who kills his brothers?!
katan> as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.
You do realize that you just showed that you can’t find a realistic suggestion for Satmar model of governance in EY? I would not be surprised that SR has a better argument than you are presenting here, but you are really undermining his reputation – as he was a pretty sharp Rav. I can’t imagine if I were to ask him directly, he would give such an evasive answer. I suggest you seek some more eloquent Satmarer andask him to provide a better argument based on SR seforim so that honor of a talmid chacham does not suffer
coffee > There were numerous posts of mine that weren’t approved of in the past due to the way I worded it
same here. In many cases, I was thankful to mods for stopping us from inappropriate expressions. At the same time, mods used to be way more biased towards some rabbis who got to be always right, and others who were allowed to have faults. I don’t think there was any factual basis in that, just personal trepidation in some cases that somehow was absent in others. Either mods got iyush or, more likely, took the posts (including the ones they banned) to heart and seemingly became more reasonable allowing fair criticism across the board, while mostly avoiding bad faith attacks
yankel > because he knows that any honest answer will include a negative – no , he will not send any of his sons
I guess you did not understand my answer, so I say it again – I can easily say that I will send, but my answer is not worth anything given that I am not inthe parsha. So, I am not going to take a cheap shot. And the fact that you are interested in this question and not in the ways to reduce the risk is unfortunate.
This is very typical in many areas of human endeavors. In business, for example, a silly businessman is “brave” to risk his money on a venture and hope to become rich. I saw (and participated in) briefs by shrewed salesmen – their pitch to the customer, while selling an expensive product/service – “can you afford the rosk of using other [cheaper, but not so assured] products? The goal is to try to achieve the goal while minimizing the risk.
I understand (but do not agree with) those who do not work with medinah. But if you understand the value of defending the country but simply refuse to “take the risk”, your first focus would be to evaluate the risk, then analyze sources and minimize them.
yankel> there is no difference between a ben torah and talmid chacham , however ,
by a typical gemora, it seems that: ben Torah is someone who reliably knows regular daily halachos. In osme cases, he may NOT need additional chumros that will keep amei haaretz from mixing up permitted from forbidden. Talmid Chacham is someone who can reliably answer shailos on the maseches he is studying. Chacham is someone can answer sheilos on any topic. So, T’Ch is a step over ben Torah.
But to the topic: did I understand the reference correctly? It seems to be saying that this is what some do, not a strict requirement? And there is a maase that seem to contradict: young Tsfas Emes was learning late at night and not fresh in the morning. His grandfather, Chidushei Harim, gave him some mussar. Hevrusah wondered why Tsfas Emes did not explain that he was learning. He answered: and what – miss an opportunity to get mussar from my grandfather!? The implication here is that learning at night is a good excuse.
Fascists! Even the russian czar never took away any subsidies from Jews who learned Torah! I don’t think he even knew the word “subsidy”.
The government take subsidies away from people who do not recognize the power of this government and who are ready for mesiros nefesh – but maybe not loss of subsidies.
yankel, unfortunately, we just had a political assassination in US. These things happened before in multiple countries. This is what you get when you call your opponents “illegal”,”kidnappers”,
You seem to be OK with voting, but not with the whole system. Modern democracy (or republic) is not just an Athenian direct vote, it is a complex system of legal institutions, You do not to appreciate that SC is part of the Israeli legal system. If you think they are violating some rules, then other parts of the system, like Knesset, should be able to override them. If they could not – it means more support. Maybe you need rules that are clearer – and then you need support to make those rules in Knesset. Generally, the fact that not all 51% votes become law is a feature, not a bug. People who started modern democracies understood this (in USA) and got burned by not understanding (France).
NP, not only law of large numbers is in play, this whole greek tragedy setup where a hero can’t run away from “fate” is pure AZ, old one pre-xian that we do not have any agency in the world. This also makes observance into a mystery that we perform for no reason. for me, it is absolutely clear that the mitzva of chinuch requires parents (and others) to make their utmost effort to prepare children to face life of their generation (gemora kiddushin: get married, make daughters presentable, whether jewelry or masters degree, get a profession, teach to swim). So, if yo care about the issue – yes, do surveys, improve educational system, show a personal example. Details of that are worthy a discussion.
Mods – you can design a couple of chatgpt prompts and send all messages to flag suspicious ones that require reviews. Also, give examples of what you consider good or bad.
Something like:
I am a moderator of a Jewish orthodox forum. Flag messages that use vile language, ad hominems, question validity of belief in Hashem or Orthodox halakha, use disrespectful words towards respected orthodox rabbis. Respond with 1 for flagged messages and 0 otherwise. No other information.
Examples of messages to flag: … Examples of messages not to flag: …A good thing here that chatgpt will figure out on it’s own who is due respect without your personal bias 🙂
yankel, don’t laugh at their position. If I were in 1920, I might have also hoped for a benevolent ruler whether bnei Yishmael or Esav. Our immediate experience at the time was of immediate tzaar caused by anti-religious movements that already took over whole empire of Russia and were more cruel than even the czar before them. So, it was not unreasonable to worry that a similar regime, even without cruelty, would be biggest danger whether in Germany, Poland, or EY. It got to be of a puzzle why an assimilated journalist from Vienna was able to see the upcoming danger more clear than more learned and observant people. It may have been just luck – there were people in every generation who suggest something and this was the one where it was important. Imagine if Shabtai Tzvi moved people to EY right before Nazis came to power in Europe – then, he would be considered the hero.
The issue with our commentators that they see that their position was reasonable at the time, but are not able to see how it was incorrect in the hindsight. As you noted, their suggestions are very tentative.
ubi, I wonder whether your correspondent ever considered inviting someone non-observant for shabbos? If not, he might not have been interested in these halochos.
> — because, after all, no scientific study was ever conducted.
Rocky, see if the poster is not familiar with the world of research, they are not aware that it is actually possible to conduct such a study.
I am suggesting that people who have such strong view start with an informal stidy – go to their local rosh yeshiva and ask for some names & numbers. So far, nobody seems to try that.> “one is a Jew in their heart” comes straight from the Reform/Conservative playbook.
now havos halevavos is a reform book? What this reflects is that we sometimes tend to counter the external influences. For example, some emphasize doing v beliefs in response to the religion that calls for the faith alone. Same here. As we were challenged by reform and communists, it was natural to focus on what they rejected. Good that we have Tanach and Gemorah that still has those issues mentioned.
thanks for filling me in on halochos shabbos. You absolutely changed my plans for this weekend.
There is a lot of halachik literature about inviting non-religious people for shabbos. In this case, it is people who had a kesher with a shul for several generations and continued coming (and supporting) the shul. Cutting them and possibly their children and grandchildren off is not a mitzva and thank you for demonstrating that this attitude exists, unfortunately, not in just that one shul.
thanks for filling me in on halochos shabbos. You absolutely changed my plans for this weekend.
There is a lot of halachik literature about inviting non-religious people for shabbos. In this case, it is people who had a kesher with a shul for several generations and continued coming (and supporting) the shul. Cutting them and possibly their children and grandchildren off is not a mitzva and thank you for demonstrating that this attitude exists, unfonrtuately, not in just that one shul.
yankel, you just need to get to the acceptance stage on how modern democracies work. They are based on complicated rules sometimes hastily written and open by interpretation by indirectly elected officials. If you work within the system, it allows for some sort of reasonable conflict resolution. It does not have to be perfect. It is just a way to prevent dictatorship and bloodshed.
Think, for exanple, a simple presidential election like in US. If one candidate gets 272 electoral votes and another 269 – does it really mean that one of them is better fit to govern than another one? No. I would say anyone who can get 40% of votes is reasonably qualified. It is just a reasonable way to select one candidate that gets to govern.
Same thing in Israeli system where the rules might be not that clear – after all, they are a mixture of Turkish, British, Jewish laws written in a haste with some groups staying away because it was not kosher enough for them. So, in this system, there are ways to make laws and override different decisions. If right now they are not working in your favor, look how to change what you don’t like. Calling something illegal leads to then call others kidnappers and then leading to calls for violence. It is destructive.
@yankel, true, but there is a machlokes between rambam and rambam: in halochos deah, I think, he says to sleep 8 hours and wake up at sunrise. In limud Torah, he suggests learning both during the day and during night, as these are two different type of learning. In truth, for some months, you can’t fulfill both and you have to have your priorities.
And I think you mean EH 25 in my edition, it talks I think about some T’chachamim (not bnei Torah, whoever they are) doing that and the context is somewhat related to family relations, which I presume this bochur was not involved in. If he was, there might be other problems in the story.
none2, several notes regarding the idea of eruv
– Jewish law concerns about social behaviors and legislates to achieve them. We want certain uniformity in life, despite you and me both valuing independent thought. I still think that you would like your bus driver to go on the right like everyone else, and to get your usual cereal inside the cereal box.
– accordingly, eruv is part of rabbinical legislature that is PART OF rabbinical prohibition of carrying. That is, when Talmud concludes that the situation is the “Torah law” then the rules of modifying it are way harder. That is, rabbis created an environment that facilitates both shabbat observance – and that includes the exceptions. If I tell my kids – you can drink everything you find in the house except my bourbon, I am not being inconsistent about the bourbon, I am stipulating it as part of the law.
– you can see from the R Teitz story ^ that your concerns are valid and others worry about that.redleg > made a similar response to a certain Rabbi’s comment on my own headgear.
I’ve seen a cartoon years ago – chassidim in shterimels stand in line to great their Rebbe. There is a modern-dressed professor in the line. Seeing that he is sticking out, he adds a shterimel to his suit. Rebbe says “gut shabbos” to everyone, and to professor he says “a freliiche Purim”
Be comfortable in your own skin/shtreimel
Ari > My late father a”h held that frumkeit is often a cover for hardheartedness and a lack of character.
Maybe our Fathers davened in the same shul? One of his bitter comments was that young “frum” members cancelled the contract to rent a nearby parking lot for Yamim Norayim, and some of people he knew who used to come occasionally for maybe 60 years – stopped coming.
Comparing chumros level v. middos is one mussar way to check yourself. A story of Alter from Slabodka who did not want to go greet a visiting dignitary because he did not hold much of him, but he was not sure whether he is just being lazy. So, he dressed up, walked to the hotel, stopped to think about it again, and, satisfied with the integrity of his decision, went back home.
a simpler method: In Avoda Zora it is said that sakanah is stricter than kashrus. If you eat something that is allowed by most and turned out you made a mistake – you have a defence in the shamayim that you followed a halachic process. If you drink water left overnight open for snakes, in the unlikely case of a snake depositing poison, you’ll die even if you followed the right statistical model. Halakha is very strict about that – we don’t eat, say meat/fish because of sakanah as perceived in Shulchan Aruch even if we don’t have medical evidence for that.
So, one should be more careful how one crosses the road; eats healthy food; drives in traffic than in worrying whether a non-Jew added camel milk into your yogurt. If one is not, then his Torah learning is off.
Avi, from memory, Chofetz Chaim was, I think, on the road a little during WW1 and Radin might have changed ownership several times. I think he was in also in Lita before Poland. There are several stories of that period:
– Soviet Jewish commissar was taking yeshiva students, not sure for army or works on shabbos. Chofetz Chaim visited him saying – I have no hope to convince you to change, but when you get to the din shel maaleh, you might defend yourself, saying – Chofetz Chaim was in my town, he might have convinced me to do teshuvah. So, I came to take this defence from you. [Was it literal, or was it a last desperate attempt to make the Yid listen?]– Chofetz Chaim received a letter on a Friday afternoon that the family got a permission to leave USSR (I think to Lita). His S-I-L (R Zacks?) assured him that he’ll take the first train mtzei shabbos to pick up the visas. Chofetz Chaim was surprised by this answer and told him to go immediately on Shabbos
– the story above. In Poland, he continued writing letters calling people to send packages to Jews who remained under Soviets, especially during hunger that lead to millions of deaths in Ukraine & some parts of Russia. He was specific – send this size packages every X months …
none > maybe orthodoxy isn’t realistic in real life scenarios. .. Cuz the Torah itself can be lived in in _all_ realities
You are right on realism, you are just confused what are the varieties that fall within Torah Judaism. Gemora describes various rabbinical rulings in response to real-life behaviors: in some cases, rules are stricter for less-observant people to make sure they don’t get confused; in other cases, rules are simplified. Feedback is also important – there was a takana to forbid non-Jewish oil to minimize mingling, but it was too much for the people and it lapsed. Rules of ketubah and organization of schools were tweaked over hundreds of years to match how people behave (husbands were too quick to divorce when they got angry when ketubah money was set aside in the house, so it was changed to a lien on property; not all fathers could teach their sons or drive them to a far-away school, so small local schools were eventually created).
you can also use chatgpt to flag inappropriate posts
Avi, great, but these two jokes are one: you need two eruvin for those who do not rely on the other one.
yankel > is merely a reaction
thank you for looking into that and finding the reason. So, you start using vile language because some hilonim do the same. I don’t think there is a reshus for doing that. Chofetz Chaim writes about dangers of “cultural schools” of his time but he is not using vile language when describing their danger to the kids. but maybe you can look up his seforim and suggest the appropriate language.
> not only haredim are treated with said disdain and derision –
I understand what you are saying about anti-religious crowd … I heard here in NYC from people who witnessed those who brought food and tried to give it to people who went to shul on Yom Kippur … But there are nowadays, B’H, so many observant and stam traditional people who are not against religion per se. If you have disagreements with them, you should pay more attention to their positions and try to either change or explain yourself. I don’t see how you can riled up about such people if they are not happy with your community working less or not going to the army. You can disagree with them, but their positions is also legit. And you probably learned enough gemorahs and rambams that talk how a talmid chacham should behave so that others respect them.
yankel > legality of the kidnappers who enforce the illegal draft
you yourself are explaining in another thread that people use terms in non-binding way. You are doing the same here. If doing something were illegal, then police would arrest people doing that. Here they are “illegal” because if your sevorah. Take your sevorah to the Knesset and make them act on it.
filling your own cup – Hashem chooses a full cup to pur in – this Berochos somewhere page 5
yankel > was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
[with a long list]Now, we need to appreciate that R Elchonon did not know about these things. We can’t blame him for focusing at the problem at hand and not having a nevuah. Somehow, Hashem did not tell him for whatever reasons. We have a similar discussion with Rivkah not sharing her opinions of their children with Yitzhak, as she figured out that if he had “a need to know” Hashem will tell him directly.
But people who know history and ignore it have no excuse.
Chofetz Chaim ran away from emerging communist Russia – for all good reasons. He later concluded that it was better to stay and risk his life but provide some chizuk to Jews who remained trapped in Russia. What made him change his mind? probably facts that he observed – that communists were not a temporary event; that all Rabbis left; and that Russian Jews were left without leaders. And maybe that he could not help much to improve decreasing observance in free Poland also … He also changed his mind about going to EY, realizing that he will not solve the machlokes (that rages here till now), maybe personal reasons also. So, facts make talmidei chachomim update their views.
It looks like Katan still did not convince us of the alternative history of EY under his wise leadership. Nobody believes that Brits would have governed EY for the last 80 years. It would be Assad or Arafat or Saddam. Where would be all sephardim going? drafted into Iraqi and Iranian armies to fight each other (million people died in that war in 1980s)? bombed by russian aircraft in Aleppo? slaughtered by ISIS like Yazidis? what would happen with Russian and Ukrainian Jews? They would be also killing each other right now drafted in the slavic armies.
Imagine that this would be a real history. You would now approach chacham katan and ask him – do you regret your policies that lead to so many Yidden dying? He would say – gezeras Shamayim, like the advice my teachers gave to dtay in Europe before WW2. Don’t blame me.
Well, if you did not get it from Bnei Reuven, maybe you can get it from the parsha that LITERALLY SAYS:
כִּֽי־תֵצֵ֥א לַמִּלְחָמָ֖הCan you imagine Moshe Rabbeinu giving this drosha in our “yeshivos”, would he be allowed to?
the Prasha also gives you practical suggestions of how to deal with enticing ladies that you can encounter in the army. Go listen nd pay attention this year.
anyway, I am waiting for a beautiful story of police coming in the middle of the night and finding bochurim shteiging and cotinue while being transported to the detention center.
Arrested at 230am sleeping “without counsel”.
This reminds of a Polishe Ruv whose congregation came to him at night with a shailah and found him sleeping. They fired him next day, saying that they were expecting him to be learning at night. He moved to Amerika and made sure he learns every night. Once, congregants came to him for an emergency at night and saw him in learning. They fired him the next day – they expected him to know everything but turns out he was still learning.
So, this bochur claims he is a ben Torah and they found him sleeping at Bas Yam?!
I also like scary quotes about “disciplinary hearing” and “crime”, as if they are not real enough.
yankel> no one was ever hinting at any violence
I mean this language “legally considered kidnappers”. There are people who might understand this as a call for violence. I would not use that.
> SC’s annulment of the Tal law was made under false pretenses of so called ‘equality’
My imperfect understanding that politically the law was damaged by lack of results – while it proposed a path for charedim to integrate, that did not happen. That was a chance for some compromise, but I guess both sides decided to risk and press their advantage.
The rest of your “legal” analysis is just an opinion. You might be right in your suggestion that SC is not consistent – now, you just need to have the rest of the country on your side. You are talking like a person who was stopped by police for speeding and you are saying – I know I can prove that I was not speeding, so I don’t have to pay. No, you don’t have to pay if you submit your arguments to a judge and he approves them.
So, just ask yourself – why most non-charedim seem not to be on your side? and what do you need to do to change that?
There are many things that are different nowadays:
big cities with car traffic. In older times, even large cities might not have 600,000 horses & donkeys passing by
socially, women our days are interested in going to shul and meeting others. Gemora discusses the problem of women wearing jewelry on shabbos as they tend to meet their friends and take it off to show to others. And 100+ years ago, women were left behind at home while men went to shul & tish. So, eruvin are great improvement in this.
internet enable people to get into heated discussions about different rabbis holding by different positions, instead of simply listening to their local rav.
multiple groups with different minhagim routinely live nearby. I know of a Sephardi Rav who tells his people that they can use the eruv together with Ashkenazim, but apparently, he himself used it only for a medical emergency.
Probably, young people embrace stereotypes faster in our days due to media propagation. So, all labels have memes going around. All of that is total nonsense. Someone who watches TV is not “modern”, and someone who wears a hat is not “yeshivish”. R Soloveitchik is modern, R Feinstein is yeshivish – and they are cousins.
SQRT> many of my best ideas have often come to be during prayer, especially prayer with a minyan.
indeed, one of the purposes of the community prayer is so that a person takes a wider view: a traveling salesman might daven for the dry weather, but when he davens with the farmers, he might take into account that they need rain (and, of course, he will then realize that he also needs farmers to have rain – so that he will have what to sell next year!). So, it is natural that your thoughts at the minyan should take into account opinions of others. In a sense, CR achieves same goal – we are all thinking out loud in the presence of others who are (too?) quick to help us by pointing out errors.
I think many people feel strongly about those close to each other and feel like fighting them. Some of these people never saw a reform rabbi in their life, but they are all riled up about someone who is observant but dares not to follow their shitot. It is more an indication of their internat state that requires an “enemy” to fight than a reasoned opinion about other groups.
yankel, stop blaming “thugs” and biden admin, O’H. It is a feature of democracy that people advocate for their positions. Focus on making your point to other Israelis. One lesson frmo American politics – try to unite many groups, don’t stand by narrow interest of your minority. If unite all religious Jews in Israel, together with “traditionals” and you show some respect to pthers, you will be stronger than SC.
people used to write letters to each other that travelled for months. YWN is trying to upgrade us to the times of the Gaonim.
I am wondering what was about refusing wearing military uniform for religious reasons? Was it shaatnez or beged isha? Or not tzanua enough?
yankel> non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , o
nothing to be lolling about. This was a pretty reasonable position to take in 1900 – before WW1 and even in 1920s. At the time, various shades of communism were the biggest danger against the legit western governments, and some versions of zionism were a part of that in addition to being anti-religious. Arab countries were least affected by that. So, no wonder, so many people were involved in battles against those movements.
It is now, from the knowledge of WW2 events and history after, we see that the proposed path would not be feasible. Katan’s only fault is that he reads thoughts of 100 years ago without considering the events we know now. But, you see, as we asked them for what solution they are thinking about, they at least exposed what their plan was, and we can now judge the feasibility of those plans or lack thereof.
yankel> it is impossible to rectify it, this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
this is kefirah, greek tragedy where whatever a person gets a “prophecy”, does everything to avoid it, but ends up with inevitable results predicted by “gods”.
and while you are at that, please give us something to work with. As I suggested, go to your Rosh Yeshiva and ask him for numbers and also for a permission to contact graduates and see what happens with them. I’ll be interested to hear this.
yankel> there is no source whatsoever for the court to cancel any law
if this is true, then nothing stops the knesset from ignoring them. (As some US president said during a similar confrontation with the US SC – now, let them enforce it). Apparently, Israeli laws are not that clear cut AND/OR there is no political will for the government to override the SC. That is how political systems work. Maybe this system is not perfect, and – after this experience – there will be a “judicial reform”. But, generally speaking, this is how modern democracies work – they develop a system of rules and players that contradict each other. The goal is, following Pirkei Avos, to simply not allow people from swallowing each other alive, but use peaceful arguments to resolve the issues. So, just work within the existing system, try to improve it, but don’t make accusations that delegitimize the other side and even hint on violence. Especially, if you are trying to represent a Torah-based view. We can’t use vile language.
Re: constitution. There are democratic countries with and without constitution. So, you can’t say one way or another. I do think that it helps. Constitution is not adding legitimacy to the legal system, it simply adds stability – it usually requires a bigger effort to change constitution than regular laws. In US, it is quite extreme – not only supermajorities in congress but also supermajority of states. In Russia, on the other hand, Putin can change constitution to adjust election rules any way he wants to.
I think simcha is up to something. Some articles about this inyan say that the soldiers can become, lo aleinu, non-charedi, rather than non-observant.