Always_Ask_Questions

YYA> Sarah Shenirer didn’t just run ahead with her idea on her own, she did seek guidance from the Belzer Rebbe, and not much later got the emphatic support of the Imrei Emes of Ger,

From what I read, she got her original idea from a German Rav she met in Vienna as a refugee during Great War (and first skeptical seeing a “Rav” in a modern suit). She got a brocha from Beltzer Rebbe when her brother submitted a kvittel in an effort to convince her NOT to go with this – and was surprised by the answer. And she also brought at least 3 German university-educated ladies to help her develop the curriculum. I am not sure how well knows this history is to the BY students, but maybe the whole point was to launder the German curriculum thru acceptable channels 🙂

>> [Chofetz Chaim] “His solution: an article in a Yiddishe paper summarizing halochos of mikva on one page”
> That’s all he ever did? Not exactly.

Of course. I am just mentioning one of the specific letters. He wrote me. I am not piling it on Chofetz Chaim, he had an understanding of issues – not only women and immigrants, soldiers (mahane isroel book), but also calling on to keep housing prices low for great war refugees; to support Jews in USSR with packages and fasts, etc. My point was only that others, not just gedolim, can and should participate in developing solutions. I am not of the view that Rabbis should be ignored, but that we all have a responsibility.

> For starters, because ‘contemporary issues’ are vastly more susceptible to interference from the good old Yetzer Hara than halachic discussions spelled out in the Gemara…

Absolutely, we benefit from Gemora and other sources that they help us develop the approach. Still, we need at some point to proceed to deal with current issues. There is nothing new here – amoraim were also combining learning what was old then with dealing with contemporary society. Maybe the difference is that changes happen now at much faster rate, so issues and decisions might change in 10-20 years. It calls both to be a little more conservative in changes, but also paying more attention to what is happening.

YYA > The bottom line is, IMHO it’s only a matter of time before the MO world in general, not just YU, will have to make a ‘binary’ choice (pun intended)

I am sure there are places that try to keep with the “Joneses” in all these things. I am not talking about that at all. I am not talking about that. Just about basics of reading/writing/math/science/professions. Rambam learned greek and “modern” Arab science without getting involved in their toevot.

PS And as you might see from current US politics, there is a strong backlash from part of the society to some of those things. Whether Jews should be getting involved in cultural issues, I don’t know. I personally stay out.

> If someone (for example) doesn’t go to the army because his Rebbe holds that is not good for him,
…
> That isn’t a חיסרון in the Chafetz Chaim ח״ו, but the initiative had to come from the one who was zocheh to it.

I do understand, of course, that yeshiva bochrim may be sincere in their actions and may indeed be correct provided their Rebbe’s position is halachikaly sound as it might be.

But do you see a stirah here between your 2 statements? If the rebbe is not infallible, then there is a place for non-rebbes to come up with solutions.
Somehow, learning how to divide a talit that two people are holding is worthy learning, but a contemporary issue is relegated to “let the Rebbe tell us”. The way I understand halocha develops is that multiple people try to resolve the issue and it propagates to the senior rabonim. Told here before: My Rebbe was teaching that Polish responsa at some century stopped being about business ethics (ehrliche) and only about kashrus (frum) [coincided with overall decline of Poland]. I asked: “so it is _your_ fault”? [Rabbis not writing teshuvos]. He responded: “no, it is _your_ fault” [people not asking right shailos].

BTW, Chofetz Chaim was not oblivious, he knew and and tried to resolve the problem. His solution: an article in a Yiddishe paper summarizing halochos of mikva on one page, asking women who know how to read – to read this article to those who women who do not. No suggestion to teach them reading, he did not think it is possible, I guess. Not that nothing was done at the time – R Shapiro Lublin yeshiva that fed students, daf yomi; R Moshe Soloveitchik was involved with some “modern” “kosher” schools, don’t know details; Ponevezh Rav opened a school for girls that has good enough secular education that he out-competed a non-religious school [as the biographer writes bashfully – a school that satisfied rich parents].

YYA, I think we agree more than disagree.
> I used the term ‘frum’ but what I really meant and should have said is ‘ehrlich’.
Yes! Unfortunately, I heard this word once in last 10 years …

> Klug
I think Chofetz Chaim meant that in modern times, one needs to know how to deal with yetzer hara. Just insisting on “frum’ is not enough.
My translation: know law, economics, psychology to build right institutions and navigate thru life.

> Mitteler Rebbe
I presumed it was him but didn’t want to impugn in case it was not. I agree with your interpretation. I am not at the Mitteler Rebbe level, but my hearing also decreases when my better half asks to take the garbage out. There are halochos that one should not take a second job at night to be in full strength for the day job. This situation is different from just sitting learning and missing someone passing by. If the Mitteler Rebbe took the job of watching the baby (Tzemach Tzedek?) seriously (the way mothers do) and learn “when he can”, he would not have gotten in this exalted state. He was endangering the whole Chabad dynasty.

Anyone hear with direct experience of receiving letters that their schools not passing the test? Would like to hear their thoughts about this subject.

Yankele, sorry, I misspelled RambaN 🙂

This starts with the discussion that Avos observed mitzvos but Yaakov married 2 sisters and made matzevah, Amram married his aunt …

Breishis 26:5
For the Commandments are the ordinance of the G-d of the land, even though we have been charged with personal duties in all places. Our Rabbis have already alluded to this secret, and I will yet call your attention to it with the help of G-d.

Vaikra 18:25
These [mitzvot] are not compulsory in the Exile with the exception of personal obligations, such as tefilin and mezuzot. And the Sages explain that this is so in order that [mitzvot] will not be novel to us upon our return to the Land of Israel, because the primary observance of all of the mitzvot [can be performed by] those living in G-d’s land.

YYA > the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.

Congrats on mishpoha. I also have good friends and teachers from there. But there are others too. I was discussing someone with a Lwood person (ltoeles) and started mentioning, admiring that that person was at YU (at a top shiur by a R’Y) and then in Lakewood and now in another place – really very broad horizons. I could not finish my sentence though as the response came “YU is not a problem for him”. I frankly presume that the speaker would not be shining at that top YU shiur, but I don’t think he understands it.

YYA > Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews…

I think I do. The fact that not everything every Rav said turned out perfect, does not mean disrespect or lack of love. As I say above, I see a lot of value in charedi approach. The fact that Chofetz Chaim did not think about schools for girls is a fact – that I tried to verify by reading a couple of volumes of his letters, but it does not take away all seforim and mussar lessons we have from him.

> BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)

I agree, except disagreeing with MORE or LESS (putting aside Chofetz Chaim who said – people say that in our time, one should be frum/frum/and then klug, but I say klug/klug and then frum). Chabad Alter Rebbe once went down to his son’s apartment (future Rebbe, I presume) and saw him deep in learning while a baby left by the wife to be watched was crying. Rebbe reprimanded his son for not paying attention to the baby. Metaphorically, not paying attention to your brothers, to your own obligations, to Hashem’s world is not necessarily more observant. I learned sometimes with charedi type people and sometimes with “modern”. Yes, there are more rishonim quoted in charedi discussions, but there is way more in depth discussion of the sugya in the “modern” shiur, where participants include top engineers/doctors/college professors – both by an occasional Aristotle or Josephus quote, but also by applying their seichel. It would laughable to consider first group frummer than the second.

YYA > your profound השגה of ‘Emes of Torah’,

There is nothing profound here. This is direct from or direct implication from what the founders and current leaders say. The goal (and a very worthy one) is to protect the public. Protection means keeping separate from things that might be dangerous. This is part of the approach and we see here how this is applied to any topic: college/army/non-Jews/leaving yeshiva/zionists … There is a lot of good reasons for that. But it implies that every Talmid Chacham that disagrees is called an apikoires, because otherwise students might get wrong ideas in their head. And, again, you see it here – these negative opinions are not simply out of ignorance, they are being taught in order to protect the students.

R Salanter was wondering about the same. He admired, I think, R Hildesheimer Torah class in Germany that was attended by women but said – if I try something like that in Lita, I’ll be kicked out. So, that idea had to wait for Ms Schenirer to adopt from German Jews.

YYA, I am not sure about your dig at “modern”. Are you talking about the YU club? First, YU as a whole is a thing in itself, not a halachik institution. And was. R Soloveitchik was negotiating a contract w/ YU in 1930s as a total outsider – while his father was the Rav there … and they had their disagreements. When he writes to defend an idea of YU medical school, he mentions that his argument is b’dieved and that he was not consulted l’hathila. Second, they were, and I believe, still fighting this, so it is clearly not something they, ahem, embrace.

YYA > Lakewood in the 40s-50s was also nothing like how you describe it, both in its goals and its modus operandi. What happened to Lakewood decades later is a different subject.

Not sure where you are correcting me. Early on, Lakewood could not find post-HS students because they were going to college. R Kotler saw that this was pursuit of the material gains at the cost of Yiddishkeit and made a (successful) effort to reverse the trend and make it honorable to learn.

YYA> What on Earth are you talking about putting Rav Hirsch zt”l in the same sentence as Mendelssohn

R Hirsh disagrees with you in 19 letters: (18:8)
When the external yoke began to grow lighter, and the spirit felt itself freer, then arose a brilliant, respect-inspiring personality, Mendelssohn, which by its commanding influence has led the later development up to this day. This commanding individual, who had not drawn his mental development from Judaism, who was great chiefly in philosophical disciplines, in metaphysics, and aesthetics, who treated the Bible only philologically and aesthetically, and did not build up Judaism as a science from itself, but merely defended it against political stupidity and pietistic Christian audacity, and who was personally an observant Jew, accomplished this much, that he showed the world and his brethren that it was possible to be a strictly religious Jew and yet to shine distinguished as the German Plato.

somejew, Rambam also says that mitzvos apply only in EY. But at least you are consistent – refusing to participate if you see a risk for yourself, whether Tzahal or Hashem are asking.

>> Coffee Addict, those classifications of the four levels of material are not in the Torah
> What do you define as the “Torah”?

It is chochma. These 4 classes seem to originate with Aristotle – and he did not drink coffee,

YYA > The early leaders of the State granted many concessions to the Chareidim in order to keep them quiet… They were sure that within a decade or two they would complete their work of shmad with both the new immigrants from Sephardic countries, and even the children of the Chareidim themselves.

Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow … And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.

YYA > The ones who listened and (many of them) died על קידוש השם, or the ones who didn’t listen, and lived (many of them were also killed) as מחללי שבת and בעלי עברה? … Many Chareidim attempted to go to Eretz Yisroel,

First, apples & oranges. We are trying to compare religious Jews who stayed and those who went. Not those who were not religious. And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so. I heard someone asking R Zelig Epstein – how did Mir Yeshiva left Vilna in 1940(!) despite R Grozdenski’s daas Torah? He quipped: it was not a problem, it was before daas Torah.

R Kotler says somewhere that he had to spend so much time away from home, travelling to fundraise. So, he asked himself – why did he deserve that (even as he was able to fulfil his approach of having many students by this). And his answer is that – maybe he was inconsiderate and answered in a rude way to a student at some point and that was the punishment. I first read this as a siman of humbleness, but maybe it was an example of honest self-assessment that we should all emulate. There are apparently stories of Rav’s temper and effect of it. One story is that when there was a confrontation between Kletzk yeshiva students and non-R Zionists on shabbos – where yeshiva students “learnt” loudly to prevent the speaker (in the shul that let the yeshiva be there) and some local gvir started tearing seforim and Rav (who was there too!) told him that he’ll be torn apart himself – and the gvir fell into a machine and lost his legs same afternoon. Then, a story of him cursing a Lakewood yeshiva’s neighbor for complaining about noise and then finding out that it was student’s fault and then asking Hashem to take his curses back … With this background, we can see how R Kotler was passionate about his position, and how R Soloveitchik decided that it is better to stop it as he would not change his mind in such a discussion.

yeshivaman > A few of the historical claims and perspectives that have been shared by some of our fellow commenters are quite unfounded,

it looks like you are actively tying to avoid lashon hara and not name anyone – but you are making it worse! Now everyone here is under suspicious. Maybe you should just state what you think is wrong and why.

HaKatan > Rav Aharon said imagine that in this room were not you, but your grandfather Rav Chaim Brisker and not me but my father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman, etc. What would your grandfather say. Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik would have none of that and wished him a good day and left.

right, and this story demonstrates that Boston Rav and Kletzer Rosh Yeshiva valued each other and were interested in the other one joining in the opinion. In the case of Chinuch Atzmai, they agreed and in the case of drafting girls they disagreed. It happens. Again, I suggest to you reading some of the regular writings of R Soloveitchik – I see that you read some stories and even his famous polemic essays, but read more of his Torah to see where he is coming from and see if it is that easy to reject his positions the way you do now.

YY > Those who listened to the Gedolim (both Agudah-type and outright anti-Zionist) did better in Yiddishkeit in the long run than those who did not (i.e. Mizrachi),

putting aside that you don’t consider others gedolim and historical errors of preventing Yidden leaving Eastern Europe for EY and US, this is indeed a fundamental question – which derech is better for Yiddishkeit. I don’t have an answer here. And I will talk more on US side that I know better but prob similar applies in Israel. On one hand, Aguda approach was able to isolate and save from assimilation a lot of Yidden and many had large families in several generations. Those who were more exposed to non-Jewish world have higher assimilation rates and smaller families. But notice that both EY and US leaders considered these measures as emergency (midbar, Chazon Ish, breaking ribs while doing CPR R Kotler) – and now these communities normalized this emergency method, leading to three generations of Yidden with broken ribs wandering about the desert – well beyond the forty years of Mitzrayim. Now, some people are self-correcting. Going to colleges (often online diploma mills or Landers). Notice people who used to say “we live near Lakewood” switching to “we live in Toms River”. But mostly, there is a large community that focuses on self-preservation rather than Emes of Torah – and redefines what “emes” is according to their limited understanding. I don’t think this is what Hashem expects from Jews.

> Stop looking for money

This is true only to extent. If you educate boys that money does not matter, only their learning, then Gemora Kiddushin 32 teaches you that this is the same as teaching them banditry. R Kotler introduced this approach when American Jewry was too excited abut new opportunities of earning money but things are different now, when whole communities are attempting to live at the level they are not prepared.

I read memoirs by a R Kotler’s student who mentions, inter alia, that Rav davened for him as he couldn’t find a shidduch for some years. Rav also fasted when he was expecting a call about his former student who was not very bright… the point of his fasting was that future mehutonim would NOT call him so that he does not have to say non-truths … The author does not notice the irony that Rav’s problems are caused by his own policies – inviting not-so-bright students to learn and neglect work prospects – and this combination was causing these shidduch problems.

Yy, I hear what you are saying. Let’s make sure we are not combining two issues: 1) you claim that Mizrahi affected those jews that were not affected by the non religious movements. Prob true, but it is a crime in your eyes because you are viewing any cooperation with zionists as a crime. 2) that Mizrahi made their children non religious. This is a serious claim. Is it really true? It probably was true early on, but so was with other jews, in Palestine andin Europe. It was everywhere.
At the end, children of those who moved to EY did better than of those who stayed in Europe listening to r Wasserman and others.

The way you present history after that is somewhat colored by your opinion. Who started, who joined later… bottom line, Mizrahi Cooperated more and had influence on what the state was doing. I agree that both groups tried their best in unprecedented circumstances and had both good and bad Decisions. Even r Yochanan Ben Zakkai was not sure whether his negotiations with Romans were done correctly.

DJT did it again – not only he appointed 3 Justices, he now installed an American as a pope (after sending JDV to have a “last talk” with the previous one). Tired of winning yet?

Maybe we should also appreciate similarity between two approaches. Both Lakewood and RIETS are a modern innovation – they are different from what was the norm in Eastern Europe from where they came. Old norm was: small yeshivos for mostly poor smart & dedicated students. The rest of the community knew basics but did not participate in advanced learning. It was not total ignorance, there was a lot of what to admire:
there is a WWI diary by a German officer who got a report of suspicious activity in occupied Warsaw: he observed Jewish balagulas gathering in some remote building for an horu every day. This looked like a preparation to a rebellion. Turns out they were coming for a quick halocha class… German officer was amazed, saying that surely Berlin drivers were more educated than Warsaw Jews, but he never saw them to gather to learn together in the middle of a work day. Still, those balagulas were not learning gemora and they were working most of the day.

This system clearly failed when balagulas got access to newspapers and other sources of information – in 19th century the disaster was all over Western Europe and started in Eastern and by early 20th century Eastern Europe was also full disaster. So, both Lakewood and RIETS addressed this issue – in a different way as we all know. But the main focus was the same – how to change educational and rabbinical systems to make majority of Jews appreciate Judaism when other attractive alternatives are freely available. Lakewood focused on teaching as much Torah as possible to people who may not become Talmidei Chachamim – and keeping them away from other info. RIETS in 1940-50s focused on quickly raising a generation of Rabbis who could talk to American-born Jews (including children of recent arrivals). Add Chabad to this list, of course.

Teiku