Always_Ask_Questions

yankel> rabenu nissim states that every jew has a right to live in EY and
> no secularist and no medina and no AAQ and no somejew can take that right away from him
> no one can tell him to go away and live in judenrein and dangerous places

some ridiculous claims aside that you do not subscribe to, I presume, religious Jews currently live in EY thanks to the zionist efforts (secular, and religious, and supporters from other countries). My only suggestion to go away is only if you consider it impossible to comply with the laws of the land. What was R Nissim’s suggestion – go and refuse pay taxes to Muslim authorities? I presume he suggested to find a way to live there according to their regulations. But if you actually believe that it is not possible – do like Avraham did during the hunger – go to Mitzrayim.

YYA> No one has the right to force bochurim into a situation where

So, you are now abandoning attempts to defend your position and return to proclaiming your inalienable right to be free from Zionist yetzer harah.

Let me try to accept your position for a minute. Then, the erliche way would be to either leave the country or to seek mechilah from those who risk their life to defend yours, while you do not want to/not able to (there is a chabad story about chasidim telling a balgula that they “cannot” help him push the horse out of the mud, and he replying – “you can, you just dont want to”). Try to compensate with some other activities, while admitting that it is never a full compensation – organize volunteer help with army supplies; work in place of soldiers (this might require getting a college degree); babysit their children; visit soldiers in hospitals – do this en masse, and maybe you’ll get some acceptance.

qwerty, I did not read, or was not paying close attention to the reasons behind R Miller’s position. I think ressons you quote are secondary – dressing as Ben Torah as clearly something traditionally inappropriate for a non-Ben Torah; and choice of particular black clothing is a random recent convention. Same for daas Torah – this is all secondary to social truth: many of R Miller’s followers will be lost and get assimilated without these stringencies. That already happened with previous generation of Jews in America (not because they followed R Hirsh or R Soloveitchik, but because they were stum ignorant and with no community support).

So, R Miller’s advice was valid for his listeners. But I wish it were possible to protect people without pretending these measures are core Torah. As a result, the followers now focus on these things as the essence of their Torah. Maybe they should read the rest of R Miller, or maybe some R Soloveitchik also.

Dovid, a good analogy. See OC 317:10 saying that dangerous animals with deadly bite can be killed on shabbos even if they are not pursuing anyone, otherwise – only when chasing.

Also, see an article by R Dovid Sukenik that starts with ” In cases in which leaving snow or ice on the ground would pose an immediate danger, the snow may be removed, as pikuach nefesh overrides Shabbat. This scenario is not very common, however. The scope of this article is limited to cases in which there is no imminent danger. “. I think the Rav does not live in upstate NY …

He also says that there are authorities who say snow is muktze (Pri Megadim) and there are those (majority) that do not. Even for those that say it is muktze, it follows from Taz on bones that one move it away.

Another concern: uvda chol, this will allow doing it for a mitzva – guests, walking to shul, tzaar, financial loss (town ticket?)

There are other concerns – making shabbat like chol – that probably only applies in Anchorage and Gulag – that have snowstorms for the whole season.

Red Adair, a good point. There might be disagreements between poskim on what is allowed.

Note also difference between private and public policy. Privately, if my driveway is too dangerous, maybe I should not shovel, but stay home and have a great shabbos with my family. But, if there is a public path, there will be enough “heroes” including elderly who will venture out and risk their health, so it becomes pikuach nefesh to protect them. Or maybe to put barriers and signs that travel is prohibited 🙂

reb-mutche> Would you have said this when Nazi Germany ‘passed laws’ democratically,

see my reply to YYA, I agree that democracies do not have to be moral. Rome was not. Sdom was not. Just in modern times, democracies seem to be way more moral than anyone else. In the case of Germany, it was a weak short-lived democracy (Weimar Republic) that fell under a dual attack of communists and nazis, enabling nazis to get control under plurality and it stopped being a democracy at some point there.

> The current situation has NOTHING to do with the army needing more soliders.
> There are more non chareidi ‘draft dodgers’ than chareidi draft dodgers.

I think you feel uncomfortable with the situation (unlike some people/posters who simply declare – we don’t care, they are bad people – and you are trying to develop an argument to support your position. I don’t think it works out well. First, according to published numbers up to 80% of draft dodgers right now are charedi. Maybe these numbers are skewed and maybe they were not such a year ago. Even if you are right, it is not a good argument: all other communities provide soldiers, charedim do not. Putting aside a moral argument of why your blood is redder than theirs, there is a practical argument – a small remaining percentage of other communities are people with some problems or valid excuses. Totality of charedi community should include a lot of capable soldiers, even if you make a fair exemption for true learners.

> Almost all politicians now pushing for the draft of yeshiva bachurim, have in the past agreed to exempt yeshiva bachurim in exchange for chareidi support in ther parties.

Don’t confuse process with outcomes. Politicians are there to represent voter interests and find some resolutions to conflicts “so that people do not swallow each other alive” in the words of pirkei avos. They all might have their own personal interests. They come up with some consensus despite that.

Also, look at the history of the issue – there were multiple compromises with expectation that charedi community will come up with some solution, but it did not happen, so politicians, and their voters, have a right to be frustrated from their point of view.

YYA> This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.)

This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.

Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …

Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?

> BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have דינא דמלכותא status, rather they are considered ליסטים, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.

I heard this opinion. I would appreciate if you could give reasoning and source behind it. My guess it would be either:

1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.

2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.

There is also “tragedy of commons” – see people crossing a major street through snow, jumping from one snowbank to another. Nobody would think to bring a shovel and create a path for the tzibbur – unless the government sends a crew. “Nobody in the history of the world washed a rental car” (Lawrence Summers).

R Huna would go around town and check the walls – falling walls were a major danger at the time. If the owner had money, he would make them fix the walls. If the owner could not – R Huna would pay for the repairs. Same thing with snow – if the owner is neglecting it, then tzibus should ask him nicely, maybe stop giving him aliyot. If the owner is out, is elderly, why not send some bochrim to clean it.

I don’t think qwerty any my quotes differ that much. I presume R Miller was familiar with what MO stands for, as he spent a little time at Boston yeshiva where R Soloveitchik was the head, and R Miller’s FIL was also teaching. So, his bottom line is that MO are part of Klal Yisroel but he disagrees with them and considers them a danger to the community he leads.

R Miller has a lot of good insights in human psychology and a lot of his observations are useful to his followers. Interestingly, R Miller himself ventures into science and politics. His advise is “learn a lesson from Viet Nam; if you don’t – Hashem will send next lesson closer to home”. Possibly, he does not want everyone to learn those lessons, just to listen to him learning the lessons. Anyway, I wish students of R Miller listen to his message to them, rather than focus on the boundaries he created to protect them from bad influences.

PS As to quotes, I suggest going to either R Miller’s tapes or books. Recent popular excerpts published on and off-line may be taken out of context or selected with a bias.

rescue> There was no teenagers before the modern era?

right – children were growing up and becoming adults. Sometimes, they would have to work/aka becoming adults while still children.

Not my theory, I am not a historian … you do have Aristotle and others complaining about youth and their lack of experience and thus thinking they know everything, but I think it is about young age in general, not in a sense of a group of people whom we hold not responsible for their behavior.

julius> we oppose the Zionist state

what does it mean?
you don’t want to live there? fine, I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
you want to live in EY but do not want to live in the Medinah? Go to PA, Gazah, Jordan, Syria and make your case for being a perfect dhimmi.
you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can vote for your shitah?
you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist – have much higher expectations from Medinah that you would from any other country where you would follow the laws.

re: stem – there is one biological fact that seems to be universal: males have more variability than females. That would mean that the average might be same or not, but there is more males with very low abilities and with very high abilities. So, when you are talking about best CS in the world, there will be way more males even if we resolve all social and family differences. At the same time, there are more men who are the most stupid and winning Darwin awards every year.

from a quick search, seems that R Miller can answer the same question differently, depending maybe on the context:

1) from a secondary source that may be too selective in their quotes:
– What’s wrong with being Modern Orthodox?
– If Modern Orthodox means that you are going to send your daughters to college and your children won’t go into yeshivos to learn how to become talmidei chachomim, so you’re not Orthodox. Because ושננתם לבניך means ודברת בם בשבתך בביתך ובלכתך בדרך ובשכבך ובקומך. That’s Orthodox. So you see that big requirements are necessary to be Orthodox; it requires that your children should be bnei Torah.

[AAQ: he is making a hashkafic point here as this can not be taken literally – as most MO (yes, I am using true scotsman approach here) teach children Torah, but historically we had Amei Haaretz who were Orthodox, although this does not work well in our times]

2) this seems to be authentic from a tape:
A: Absolutely, the Modern Orthodox are our brothers. Absolutely! If a Jew is a שומר מצוות, he tries to keep the mitzvos, then even thought he doesn’t exactly do everything the way we do it, he’s still a brother. If he doesn’t do עבירות, if he’s a שומר מצוות, I don’t care what kind of yarmulke he wears. If he wears a knitted yarmulka or if he wears something else, he’s still my brother. A person who keeps טהרת המשפחה, family purity, he eats kosher, he sends his children to Yeshiva and not public school, he’s a shomer Shabbos, he has mezuzahs on his doors – a person like that is our brother, and don’t make any mistake about it.

Now, of course, that doesn’t mean that he has to be your brother and that you’ll move into the same house as him. It doesn’t mean that you should associate with him. That’s something else all together. You only associate with the best ones because you want to be the best. But when you see him on the street, you have a mitzvah of ואהבת לרעך כמוך – you have a mitzvah to love him. Whenever you see a Jew with a yarmulka, make sure to bless him. Say ברכם טהרם רחמם צדקתך תמיד גמלם.

v32, I don’t think there is “Jew” (Yehudi) in the Torah (Chumash). It appears as a reference to all Jews (rather than someone from the tribe of Yehudah) in Megillah for Mordechai who os from Binyamin, this is where “Jew” starts signifying the whole nation due to 10 tribes disappearing and the remnants mixing up in exile.

Avraham is the first Hebrew “Ivri”, being different from others, passing a boundary/river.

Israel is mostly used as children of Yaakov as a symbol of a nation.

Not sure why it is “Eved ivri” / a Jewish slave, maybe he at the moment is not representing the nation, being a lowly slave.

I am sure there are books and books written about these.

In modern times, maskilim (secularists) tried using Hebrew/ Polish-Russian:Evrey instead of Jew/Zhid to denote national Jews v. religious. Thus, all kind of “Hebrew societies”, “hebrew schools” were created.

common > [in fact he was the bal koreh]

Oy, now in addition to kashering all the dishes, you would need to re-read all the parshiyos!

yankel> with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder

you are absolutely right. Now, tzibur does not feel responsible for the actual events, so all kinds of opinions can be thrown around at no cost. Now, imagine posters with some of the stranger views here get elected to leadership roles… it is much easier to deal (conceptually) with non-religious Jews in charge (and even easier with non-Jews on charge) than when we will have “Torah” Jews in charge and if, H’V, bad opinions win the day. So, it is very beneficial to discuss these issues now! and responsibly.

YYA> That said, if EVERYONE will be Chareidi (or perhaps more accurately some sort of ‘critical mass’), so then most of the reasons for avoiding certain endeavors and occupations etc. will no longer be relevant. So it will be easier for those Chareidim so inclined to pursue at least some of the options you mentioned.

so, we agree on more and more … so, according to you, the negative attitudes towards these “non-charedi” (a loose term, I admit) lifestyles/occupations is that those niches are currently taken by inappropriate people and engagement in those can lead to mixed dancing … This is a very reasonable position and it is indeed open to gradual shifts and also to specific activities that can facilitate that – opening right institutions, etc. I’d appreciate if you can point me to some leadership statements that support your – so reasonable – views. And, logically, then you should not have any problems with anyone who is shomer shabbos and only differs from your position above in being less concerns about the issue of separation and are willing to attend college with non-religious, etc. Again, I wish these views were advertised more often, and if they are, I’ll be delighted to see.

great problem that can be solved with N-dimensional Pythagorean theorem, but the message goes beyond junior high-school: high-dimensional spaces are very sparse. That is why brute-force training of AI systems in high-dimensional spaces requires huge amount of data to fill in all those empty spaces

3) is it not enough to do simple chesed?
well, chesed is, in part, measured by outcome, not just effort. Or, you can say learning engineering in order to build defense or make medical devices, or make your travel more comfortable – that time should also count as chesed. Simple math:
Reb A. 5 years training F/T + 10 years working producing (notionally) 10x time more chesed outcome
Reb B. 80 years doing simple chesed 50% of his day

Reb A produces more chesed in less time.

And back to our source in Taanis – it brings example of simple chesed (giving out shovels for burials – I wonder whether snowstorms will also qualify?) that is great but inferior to learning and then a doctor that does medicine with mitzvos and chesed – that is 7x “better” than Abaye. I suspect this has something to do with this combination of professional engagement and his middos. Otherwise, Abaye would easily replicate what the doctor did.

2) cost
I am currently reading a book that quotes an American lady who wanted to become a dentist while in shidduchim for a talmid chochom. A charedi, anti or non-Z Israeli Ruv tells her that while this is not a usual path, she should be able to do that. And she did. And I heard from others who got OK for various professions from their RY who were publicly against college. When I and my friend – we were both in our 20s and similar in biographies met our Lakewood Teacher, he strongly suggested to my friend (who had a profession and was doing some dead-end jobs) R Auerbach was OK with R Lau privately preparing for bagrut while in his non-college yeshiva and even was disappointed that R Lau was not interested in sciences he was studying. So, that’s a proof that this is OK for some and the question is – how far do we need to go with this approach.

So, on cost, I think it is quote possible to get many professions without engaging in campus life and spending 10s of years in residency. Lots of “yeshivish” bochrim do this in NY – most in somewhat low-quality online or offline colleges (quality is low probably because high schools did noy prepare most students). Various medical specialties like physical therapy, same for engineering and computer science.

Maybe you need to balance over benefits, in addition to chesed: stable income that can enable you to work fleixble, low hours, sometimes even from home, provide for family without relying on questionable or subsidized daycare …

spy goes from the center keeping 180 degrees from the sniper as long as possible and when their angular speeds equal, then goes straight to the shore.
it works out even if he uses value of pi computed in the gemora.

of course, this problem is as fake as most of your posts – a sniper who can’t shoot from a distance at a spy that hangs out openly in the middle of the lake.

And according to Zenon – the spy will never reach the shore, of course.

21, and gemini solved that too!
ˣ²⁻¹¹ˣ⁺³⁰ = 0
or
x² – 5x + 5 = 1
or
x² – 5x + 5 = -1 and x^2 – 11x + 30 is even

girls, listen up – if you marry a non-smoker and he starts smoking, everyone will blame you for that.
But if you marry a smoker and he stops, everyone will think it is your influence. so, only upside here.

a good point. social contract requires agreement of all sides – so, go find chilonim who would agree with you, and then do your part.

YYA> Which is the core of Zionism. The attitude that “Jews were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army yada yada.”

absolutely, but we also should not go to another extreme and denigrate something just because anti-religious people started it. If you find common positions with Israelis who are not charedim but are observant, or traditional, or even non-religious but not anti-religious, then those remaining anti-religious attitudes will be marginalized. These are not 1950s any more.