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SQRT> many of my best ideas have often come to be during prayer, especially prayer with a minyan.
indeed, one of the purposes of the community prayer is so that a person takes a wider view: a traveling salesman might daven for the dry weather, but when he davens with the farmers, he might take into account that they need rain (and, of course, he will then realize that he also needs farmers to have rain – so that he will have what to sell next year!). So, it is natural that your thoughts at the minyan should take into account opinions of others. In a sense, CR achieves same goal – we are all thinking out loud in the presence of others who are (too?) quick to help us by pointing out errors.
I think many people feel strongly about those close to each other and feel like fighting them. Some of these people never saw a reform rabbi in their life, but they are all riled up about someone who is observant but dares not to follow their shitot. It is more an indication of their internat state that requires an “enemy” to fight than a reasoned opinion about other groups.
yankel, stop blaming “thugs” and biden admin, O’H. It is a feature of democracy that people advocate for their positions. Focus on making your point to other Israelis. One lesson frmo American politics – try to unite many groups, don’t stand by narrow interest of your minority. If unite all religious Jews in Israel, together with “traditionals” and you show some respect to pthers, you will be stronger than SC.
people used to write letters to each other that travelled for months. YWN is trying to upgrade us to the times of the Gaonim.
I am wondering what was about refusing wearing military uniform for religious reasons? Was it shaatnez or beged isha? Or not tzanua enough?
yankel> non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , o
nothing to be lolling about. This was a pretty reasonable position to take in 1900 – before WW1 and even in 1920s. At the time, various shades of communism were the biggest danger against the legit western governments, and some versions of zionism were a part of that in addition to being anti-religious. Arab countries were least affected by that. So, no wonder, so many people were involved in battles against those movements.
It is now, from the knowledge of WW2 events and history after, we see that the proposed path would not be feasible. Katan’s only fault is that he reads thoughts of 100 years ago without considering the events we know now. But, you see, as we asked them for what solution they are thinking about, they at least exposed what their plan was, and we can now judge the feasibility of those plans or lack thereof.
yankel> it is impossible to rectify it, this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
this is kefirah, greek tragedy where whatever a person gets a “prophecy”, does everything to avoid it, but ends up with inevitable results predicted by “gods”.
and while you are at that, please give us something to work with. As I suggested, go to your Rosh Yeshiva and ask him for numbers and also for a permission to contact graduates and see what happens with them. I’ll be interested to hear this.
yankel> there is no source whatsoever for the court to cancel any law
if this is true, then nothing stops the knesset from ignoring them. (As some US president said during a similar confrontation with the US SC – now, let them enforce it). Apparently, Israeli laws are not that clear cut AND/OR there is no political will for the government to override the SC. That is how political systems work. Maybe this system is not perfect, and – after this experience – there will be a “judicial reform”. But, generally speaking, this is how modern democracies work – they develop a system of rules and players that contradict each other. The goal is, following Pirkei Avos, to simply not allow people from swallowing each other alive, but use peaceful arguments to resolve the issues. So, just work within the existing system, try to improve it, but don’t make accusations that delegitimize the other side and even hint on violence. Especially, if you are trying to represent a Torah-based view. We can’t use vile language.
Re: constitution. There are democratic countries with and without constitution. So, you can’t say one way or another. I do think that it helps. Constitution is not adding legitimacy to the legal system, it simply adds stability – it usually requires a bigger effort to change constitution than regular laws. In US, it is quite extreme – not only supermajorities in congress but also supermajority of states. In Russia, on the other hand, Putin can change constitution to adjust election rules any way he wants to.
I think simcha is up to something. Some articles about this inyan say that the soldiers can become, lo aleinu, non-charedi, rather than non-observant.
Haimy, structured learning a worthy exercise, I know programs that organize that, but it is also not a substitute for personal connection – being friends, knowing families, participating in other people’s lives. It does not mean you have to go to any crazy party they have. I think this idea that we as a community will melt if we relate to our fellow Jews is a sad story.
PS Also, I am with Lubavitcher Rebbe on not using the word “kiruv”. It is somewhat presumptuous to feel that you are closer and can direct someone. (I felt this way myself and later read that LR rejected the term when it became popular).
Bottom line – those who claim the damage need to show some real statistics. Go to your rosh yeshiva or a speaker against the army and ask them to open the books and count what happens with the yeshiva graduates.
Ysiegel, thanks for your vivid description! please post more if you can. I would say it is definitely worth trying to improve the conditions, but what you describe sounds like a reaosnably challenging way of life that a normal religious person should be able to handle. Waking up and starting marching before davening? Think of Jewish merchants in history that travelled with caravans. You get to go when they get to go. Could be with dawn. No free hour to learn? You can review Mishna by heart while you are marching. Visiting lecturer is not inspiring? Download a pre-recorded lecture by your rosh yeshiva and listen to that together with your friends. This is challenging but not the end of the world.
I was totally wrong saying “I would ask Navi what to do”. R Shimshon Hirsh on Shoftim says that Navi’s job is to transmit a message from Hashem to us – not necessarily answer our own shailos. So, if a navi makes a bad projection, I think we can follow what we learned, for example, in Yonah – doing teshuva may overturn the gezerah raah. So, in this case, I’ll immediately turn to repeat the mussar that I already taught my kids, maybe get someone married earlier. Maybe I would call my friends in the army to make sure my kids are doing something safe, both physically and spiritually (they are already qualified because I taught them, just making sure they are not sent somewhere else).
yankel > same with Tal law . – overturned by the same merets voters aka supreme court UNAUTHORISED to do so.
I think we all understand your opinion and political position. You just need for a second take off your political hat and put on your democratic hat – and read what ZSK is saying what the current law and political decisions are. You are free to call people to change that, but using the language that they are UNAUTHORISED is taking a step too fat for a person who values EMES. If Haaretz uses such language, that’s fine, but it is not appropriate for religious people, I think. Again, I understand that you think they went too far and you might have political ways to change that – use them.
if Navi told me that, I would first use Rambam’s method to test the Navi and, after validating his status and other security checks, I would ask him what should I do in this situation, And, again, your questions are exceedingly silly.
First, in our day & age, you should be able to bring valid numbers, not hearsay, to support them. Please do.
Second, if a navi tells you that you can apply simple measures to reduce this attrition rate – by teaching your kids appropriately – giving them military specialties, teaching them middos and exercise, by organizing social services to support soldiers, would you refuse to do that?
yeshivot know the actual numbers. Maybe a yeshiva should invite a statistician to analyze what happens with the students who go or don’t go to the army and maybe come up with possible reasons – what is army doing, what is that yeshiva is not teaching enough. If such a study exist, please share the link. If it does not, please ask your Rosh Yeshiva to conduct the study – and tell us what he responded.
> What’s a “Chareidi Godol”?
Indeed, if someone is a Talmid Chacham, then it does not matter whether he is charedi or not. Limiting someone’s godlus to a sub-group is demeaning. You would not say – R Akiva is a great scholar from Beis Hillel …
R Yosef is no godol, he is a _Chacham_.
and the poster who is talking this way about the Chacham who is a head of a Sepahrdi Moetzet just proves that his stand of respect of Talmidei Chachamim is not serious. He simply chose a position first and then he “respects” those Rabbis who agree with him. This is, of course, disrespect to those Rabbis also.
aheimish, right – as mentioned – after you approach with the question and explain the details. In my humble experience, when asked rabonim difficult questions about children and Jewish education, I usually heard back very humble answers: “this is not a psak, but maybe you can try X”, “when I was in this situation, I observed Y”,”I can not teach this extra class so that it is seen as I am doing XYZ”, “not sure how to deal with them, but maybe Rebetzin X can suggest something”. This is both from charedi and somewhat modern Rabbis.
> so – seems like my initial impression was correct –
not sure how your logic works here, but I am glad to click on one thread that does not say “nu, mr X, when are you going to answer”. I suggest we discuss the substance of the issues. Maybe you can answer – how did R Akiva let his students onto dangerous roads where not just zionists, real ganavim and listim were travelling.
Yes, there is a heter, but there is also a place for tzniyut. Gemora Taanit talks about a very special doctor with more visits from the heavenly yeshiva than Abaye and Rava together – he had special clothes for women to wear during bloodletting, plus discounts and food for young (and thus not yet working and poor) talmidei chochomim.
> medium sized sauteed onion under their pillow for 3 nights
to be fair, Gemora more often recommends eating various foods than other actions with them. And I think the correct understanding of these gemoras that used the science of their time, fused the source they knew, and added their own observations – is that we need to take modern to us science and add our chochma and Torah to that and then share that knowledge (there is a ref in Avoda Zara about one of a Tanna getting treatment from a non-Jewish lady, then asking for the ingredients on the account of upcoming shabbat, giving his word that he will keep the secret, and then sharing it with everyone).
So, if you end learning that page with Rashi and Ben Ish Hai – you are wrong. You need to take pharmacology book and not move until the next daf until you finished all medical and statistical studies.
Haimy > I believe that we should feel hakaras hatov to the individual soldier putting his life in danger on my behalf. We shouldn’t have hakaras hatov to the State, whose goal is Shmading Klal Yisroel.
This is a great approach. Talking about “state” is a waste of time, indeed, focus on people.
> I’m not advocating that we associate with & mingle with tinokos shenishbu.
There are limits, of course, but wouldn’t you feel for those Jews. There might be less urgency in Israel, but in US and other galut countries, those remaining non-observant Jews are on a steep path to assimilation and disappearance. I often wonder how can so many Jews walk calmly to their shuls while their brothers are being annihilated nearby.
Haimy > State itself is the creation of evil people
it is hard to generalize about everyone, but surely many of them have grown up totally assimilated and chose the most Jewish derech among those typically available in their circles. Alternatives were – intermarriage, baptism and reform in Western Europe, communism and anarchism in Eastern, consumerism via US. Hertzl is a good example.
As you are saying, they achieved something that Hashem chose as a vessel for good, so they achieved something good, so no need to be puzzled about that if you reject the notion that they were all pure evil.
Haimy > Gedolei Yisroel have not encouraged Mass aliya in the past or present. As Rav Avigdor Miller ZL said, if you were born here, you probably belong here.
I am all for caution and conservative policies. But, as you know, in some cases, like before WW2, this policy led to bad results. That also lead to numerous people losing their trust on chochomim (or at least claiming that this was the reason). how do you account for this, or maybe you know how did R Miller talk about this?
katan > Oaths are brought down as halacha throughout the millenia, including by the Rambam himself
First, out of respect to your opinion, I am suggesting you doing hatarat nedorim. Let’s think of Rambam being here. We already discussed that he might first go to MIT to learn astronomy before applying to Lakewood. But he would surely look at the political situation right now and develop his opinions accordingly.
We also saw in multiple threads, that modern halocha often rejects idealistic Rambam’s positions, like a need to work and not take charity from Jews and non-Jews – because people in our days are not capable of following this. So, when Rambam sees medinat Yisrael supporting so many yeshiva students – do you think he will tell those students to quit, or will he support the medinah? How is that for a dimemma?
I think if we all stop making mods life hard by posting ad hominems and hateful comments, the level of moderation will improve. Maybe every time there is a day break, it is some mod taking a day off after reading all the posts so that we don’t have to.
[YU] > promoting a fusion of Torah with secular studies
what is this fusion? I didn’t notice it so far. They have Jewish studies and have general studies. Both are reasonable for the general community, not necessarily very high level. They are designed to a certain slice of am yisroel. You are free to argue for the benefit of Torah-only education for various reasons, and you can be suspicious of general college effect on Jewish youths, but it is silly to argue that an observant Jew is not allowed to learn biology or business in observant Jewish environment. Most of the students came to YU not instead of Lakewood, but instead of Columbia or SUNY.
> Also for record every single landlord should be scrutinized as to why the last person was thrown out.
good idea. You can usually find out through internet search who lived in an apartment (if they were renting legally there. if they were not – maybe you should not be there illegally also). So, find their names and contact them for a reference.
If this is true – this is either to a bad job educators are doing or maybe because they are allowing only the weakest students to go to IDF. We do have halochos that anyone in some Parsha or stam afraid should stay home. Maybe, yeshivos should have a special pre-army track – take physically capable students and teach them middos and halochos of how to behave in the army and show the world what the Torah education can produce. Start with a small group as a pilot project.
> The founding of the “State” was a conventional military victory
So you are suggesting that Z policies that prepared this conventional victory were logical and lead to the victory. And those who were not supporting them were working against the victory against the enemies (in other words, for the victory of sonei Isroel). In other words, all the arguments that Zs were the cause of Arab attacks need to be balanced with your opinion that they also caused those attacks to stop.
you forgot the terrible gezeira of preventing chassidim flying to see their rebbe z’tl.
I see in the news that a Charedi MK has no problem davening for soldiers welfare at the government meeting. So, maybe a first step could be introducing explicit davening for chayalim in the charedi shuls? This being the first step in changing the language people use in the street.
Khazar (and also Yemen Jewish state in about 10th century) is an interesting example – if this were controversial, there should be some discussion of shevuos at the time.
I think the weak spot in this discussion is that there are very limited sources on both sides – as the issue was not “hot” for centuries. So, it is worth looking at the times and halachik sources that discuss relevant issues – and if they skip over the issue of shevuos, what are the implications?
yankel, again,
I can come up with any answers to these questions from my comfortable chair and justify them, but it will be presumptuous of me.
I am just surprised why you are not taking my answer for an answer: start preparing your kids to confront challenges.
sources: chacham eninav b’rosho; mitzva of the father to teach the son to swim; r Akiva teaching students how to travel with gangsters on the road.PS I am not sure how did r Akiva allowed his students on those dangerous trips. Why didn’t he keep them in the yeshiva? was it a bein hazmanim tiyul?!
yankel> something which ALL of Israel’s defense ministers accepted (and were still accepting [!]) for fifty[!] years, was illegally overturned at the whim of seven [extreme left merets voting] individuals nicknamed judges.
You are talking about political acceptance. Israeli system has very little of stable laws that need a super-majority to overcome, like US does. So, by definition, political process can change things. Ben Gurion cannot obligate government 80 years later. BUt it can influence political debate. So, if you behave in a way that inspires other people to support your position, then your position will eventually become the law of the land. SC will not be able to stand in the way against 70-80 votes in the Knesset.
You should also study what happened under Tal law. My uneducated impression is that this was a compromise solution that had good intension of gradually bring some of the charedi community into the Army. It did not produce the result. I can’t tell whose fault is greater – army not being accepting enough, or charedim not intending to comply. But it ended in a failure and lead to backlash. And here we are.
yankel> I have a haredi neighbor who has a doctorate in mathematics,
I also know people like that, and most of them have pretty reasonable views. But I want to point out that many such professions require life-long education. In truth, most current white-collar professions require life-long education. So, will the community be able to pick up those jobs?
And we are not talking about just being able to be lawyer for car accidents. Xome of them have to compete on world-wide basis – high-tech economy and everything defense-related. Not just to get a customer, but also to stand to the adversaries. And it is not just time for a person to train, and it is also a time for the community to accept these new developments.If the community is full of propaganda against anything “modern”, will they be able to stop doing that? If people move into leadership based on such positions, how will they turn around? I hope they will, but it would be good to have a tangible proof of that. So far, those who learned how to interact with the society do it outside of charedim. Negative selection, if you will.
To sum it up, if you want to have observant economy in 2040, you need to start teaching English and math in elementary schools today.
Abba > The government forces them to declare that learning is their occupation.
I do understand the social dynamics here. Same as welfare in US “forces” some groups to not work for several generations already.
But an honest assessment is that Israeli government supports people whose occupation is Torah and earlier roshei yeshiva were imploring their students to learn at full capacity to keep that declaration honest (I brought a direct quote from Mir RY before). So, nobody is forced by the government to lie and pretend to be learners when they”d rater work (or do secretly work). I honestly don’t understand how such bizayon can come up to a mind of someone who earnestly learned Torah for a number of years.
A related mussar: one of my teachers saw a Philly chochom learning with a talmid, and a talmid brought tea to drink. They finished the blatt, and the talmid noticed that the chochom did not finish tea. Aware that you can only drink in beis midrash when you learn, the talmid suggested learning another blatt. To which the chochom retorted: I drink to learn, but I don’t learn to drink.
israeli doc, thanks for the excellent quote. Related, in Reeh on lo titgadedu, R Hirsh writes that this applies to the community in general – we should not split in .. multiple agudot (same shoresh) instead of uniting all Torah-observant Jews. A great lesson for all debates we have – there is no mitzva in finding how to separate from others, only an aveirah.
I presume this comment was written before Agudah was formed, or maybe even inspired it.
Abba> Do you really think The Israeli Supreme Court would allow it?
SC can be overturned by knesset – if there is large enough majority in knesset and in the streets for that. So, if you make sure that charedim are aligned with the rest of observant Jews, then, if demographics holds, such majority will happen way before 2060.
I think some posters are getting distracted by personal battles. It makes sense to point out an inconsistency in someone’s views as it pertains to validity of the arguments. But there is no need to repeatedly challenge your opponent to respond and to chase them through threads. It is really disrespect to readers and moderators.
If you have an urge to do that, do what gemora suggests for such urges: dress in all black and go to a faraway cable news channel and flame there. Then, come back here for a reasonable discussion.
somejew,
not to change the subject, but I am trying to see whether your shitah holds across other topics, for example is there an alternative in gemora to R Akiva saying that make your shabbos as weekday but do not rely on briyut? (Pesachim 112)Katan, please confirm that you showed your posts to a rav and he confirmed that these are appropriate expressions.
I mean, we had religious kehilot for centuries. Poland had vaad arba artzos that governed Jews in the whole country, collected taxes, and did not depend on goyishe charities. According to a chacham who studied history of Jewish Poland, Jewish institutions were parallel to Polish ones in their structure, that is up to the “modern” business and government practices of the day (and Poland was very advanced until industrialization, where they were so happy to be selling Ukrainian wheat to the West where people moved to cities to work, so Poland missed the boat of growing industry themselves.
> to abuse a gemara (Pesachim, page 112A)
same thing again – find one opinion and claim everyone who disagrees is a rasha
Meiri explains like SQROOT
Ben Ish Hai in addition to what you quote, brings another explanation: that people will hate those chachamim in power who rebuke them and also hate other talmidei chachamim. This is similar to what R Wein writes about anti-religious hate coming from the kehillot in Russia being responsible for forcibly drafting children and ensuring compliance.
As we are here , here is other advice from R Akiva to his son:
Make your Shabbat like a weekday and do not be beholden to other beings;
Join a successful person (in business, I presume)english > No gadol has ever advocated for this.
right, even Moshe Rabbeinu was refusing several times.
yankel > existence of the state is not against the oaths
this is a good distinction. There is such an idea as a social policvy b’dieved. R Soloveitchik published in article in support of YU opening a medical school.
Some people were upset – they were donating money for Jewish education, and now it expands into other areas. He says there that he was not consulted on this issue; if he were, he does not know what he would have said – but he can give a b’dieved justification, explaining that Jewish communities both in Lita and USA suffered from having only non-observant doctors and pharmacists who are not sensitive to religious concerns. Having them being exposed to a Jewish institution will be helpful for the communities.ZSK > equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills,
this is a structural problem. If you are not following events, do not understand technology and politics, then you only see things when they hit you in the face. As R Avigdor Miller said – if something is happening in Viet Nam – learn lessons from it. Otherwise, the next lesson will be closer to home.
So, Jewish response to modernity seems to be often somewhat late. And memoirs (like mentioned here about Chevron) talk about what happened right there, without awareness of the world.
We don’t want, of course, to react to any new -ism, Judaism is conservative by design. But this conservative approach works in stable societies. When things change quickly, like yetiyat mitzrayim, hellenism, destruction of BM, and – recently every ten years … you have to do things within 18 minutes, maybe that is the lesson of Pesach …