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Damoshe, thanks for this. Simcha, what they say is relevant – there are 3 types of slavery – to non-Jews, to Jews, and to yourself. Some people enslave themselves to their pre-fixed ideas and do not respond even to information that comes from the sources they trust.
Kuvult, great idea. Sounds like your construction company pays well.
from Rosh Yeshiva from Mir:
To obtain this “learning Torah is his profession” exemption (Toraso Umanuso), a statement attesting to that fact needed to be signed by the Rosh Yeshiva of each Yeshiva institution. Rav Laizer Yudel, with tears in his eyes, would tell each student that asked for his signature on the statement that “Torah is his profession” the following: “I have never told a falsehood in my life. I am signing that your profession is to study Torah. Please learn diligently and commit yourself to it, so that I am not a liar.”Some jew > I hope you learn
I am patiently waiting for your help that will come as your scholarly comments to the works of r Soloveitchik that I referred you to. Until then, I will have to follow the mesorah from him.
Some jew, authors of kol koreh clearly disagree with your position, because they acknowledge that there are talmidei chachamim on the other side of the issue.
You are raising an interesting question about money. I think you are right that this is one of the possible motivations. Another one is to prevent reform influence, but this could be exaggerated to give cover to $$$ argument. Still, there are others who want to vote because they want to be part of am Yisrael activities in EY. I know you don’t believe in this, but many others do.
DaMoshe, R Landau clearly disagrees with you.
Trying to block everything negative doesn’t work if your kids need that. Better to have a whitelist of Torah and educational sites, and block everything else.
I looked up local tag materials, and they are not just offering filters. They also talk about multitasking and brain reactions to notifications, suggesting blocking out time periods to concentrate on important things. Do they write differently in other places ? It could be, of course.
Netziv Meishiv Davar 1:44
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1096&st=&pgnum=52&hilite=
https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_Meshiv_Davar%2C_Volume_I.44?lang=bihere are some discussions about this work:
hate was not limited to those who “wronged” a person. Rather, it extended to those who served Hashem differently. If one would see a halachic leniency, he would brand it heresy, and distance himself from that person. He would then mistakenly justify attacking that person, even to the point of murder. The Netziv laments that such internal hatred within the observant community existed in his time (the late nineteenth century) as well. Hating someone who “wronged” us is necessarily limited. With how many people can we fight over money or honor? But if we hate those who differ with us on matters of halacha or hashkafa, the sinas chinam is unlimited.
——
[A] review of Neziv’s writing reveals his advocacy of contemporary religious coercion, his description of the non-Orthodox Jew as theologically worse than an idolator, his instructions to separate from Sabbath violators in the religious and social spheres, and a justification for slandering those Jews who “deny the Torah of Moses.”
——
related sources:
Sifrei Naso 42: Great is peace, for even if Israel worships idols, if they live in peace, the Holy One, as it were, says that the Accuser (‘Satan’) cannot touch them, as it is stated (Hosea 4:17) “Ephraim has bound himself to idols—leave him alone.”
Kalla Rabbati (Chapter 5): “As long as they are joined together, even to worship their idols, leave them alone.”right, so how do you react to a possibility that R Chaim was giving psak based on people around him giving him incomplete information? Presumably, this is not the only case. So, Rav’s psak is reliable when he is talking about Torah of which he is a master, but not about other little stuff where he can be mislead? This is a throwback to the heilike times when Litvishe Rabonim were only responsible for teaching Torah, not for voting!
To be more precise, we did have time periods when Rabbis were making social rulings – and times when they did not feel like that. For example, Sanhedrin 90+ describes a simpleton who (after asking Rabbis for permission) successfully wins cases against kenaanim, mitzrim and yishmaelim in Alexander’s court regarding EY. Rabbis did not jump at the opportunity to go to the court themselves. Maybe he was a Zionists using convincing real life arguments about Jewish “nation” (making kenaanim salves; deserving payment for work from mitzrim, etc) that the Rabbis were not willing to make …
PS R Gershon Kamenetsky makes a similar claim about R Eliashev – at some point, he and the Rav agreed that Rav is not issuing a ban and asking someone to review it, while R GK pauses dissemination (he says, luckily the printer already sold out the first edition and did not lose anything). Then, suddenly, while R GK was in US for medical treatment, Rav issued a ban (or somewhere posted/published it in his name, I think). When R GK immediately came back to EY and asked the Rav in person why the ban was issued despite the agreement. Rav said – but you continued selling the book. When told “not”, he said – sorry, I was told you did, what can I do, I am not a Navi (sic!) (and, if I understand correctly), Rav did not rescind the ban at that point also, for some reason. If someone knows/remembers more details about this fascinating episode, please correct me. So, this story seems to support R Landau’s position that R Chaim could have been misled.
So, Rav Landau explains why previous Rabonim (R Chaim?) permitted voting: they were not presented with the right information and they were too engrossed in their learning.
That is, he confirms that R Chaim actually permitted voting, the video is not a forgery and not a rumor. I wonder whether his assumption that previous Daas Torah can be dismissed because they did not get the right info and they were not paying attention can be applied to other Rabbis, including R Landau himself? Could someone ask him (without distorting the question)?
somejew, thousands of Yidden went to ask R Chaim questions. Would you say that he did not make sure that his answers are understood?
When I ask a rav, he is not talking into his sleeve, he is making sure that the other person understands his answer. See Pirkei Avot about teachers who mislead. So, here is an answer from R Chaim and people claim that his answer is not clear, or that he was mislead. This goes against everything everyone agrees about R Chaim.> Zuken Mamre
This is ridiculous – R Chaim paskened against somejew, and now this … where is your kavod chachamim. Note that the kol koreh admits that there are other talmidei chachamim that think otherwise. So, you dare to also dismiss the authors of the kol koreh.GH > how certain little people think that the “isms” are more powerful than Torah!
Isms _are_ powerful and were extremely pwerful in 19th-20th centuries, and affected a lot of Jews. First, secular Z is the best of all isms at least judging by the outcome to the participants – their grandchildren live in Israel and speak ivrit. Grandchildren of other isms were not born, go to church, or ran communist departments in Russia.
Second, whose fault is it? We habitually blame reform, commies, even Moses Mendelssohn… but really, did all these Jews have adequate support from their Jewish communities to stay Jewish in the face of so many opportunities? R Kotler was protected by his rosh yeshiva who intercepted letters from his communist sister who wanted him to go study math. On the other hand, R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman wonder how many of their friends from a Litvish shtetl did not become Talmidei Chachamim because of an insensitive rebbe in 2nd grade. … How many other Yidden had insensitive rebbes or rabbis who could not argue against all isms?
R Salanter at the end of 19th century despairs of ongoing downfall of Litvishe Jews and goes to Paris to work with people who “are already at the bottom” . Chofetz Chaim laments about assimilation in 1920s of Poland but he is not offering adequate solutions.
Bais Yaakov was started at that time, and R Soloveitchik started teaching secularly-educated Jews at that time – but what about previous generation?
So, we can’t solely blame outsiders for so many Jews going after isms. Observant Jewry did not provide them with an attractive alternative.HaKatan > For example, Syrian Jews have a rather different culture (and language) than do Hungarian Jews, for example. And the land (until Mashiach comes) is no different than Matza on Pesach. As even Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik noted, “EY is one mitzva among the mitzvos”.
You are right, but this does not exclude that we are also one nation with multitude of Jews who are to some, or large, degree assimilated. This is especially seen at the time of persecution, whether Shoah, USSR, or other times. R Schach says that Hashem had to introduce Arab hatred towards early non-R Zionists – because otherwise, they would have enrolled in universities of Beirut and Cairo and intermarried … from this, we see that R Schach definitely considered these Zs part of the nation that Hashem is protecting. As to R Soloveitchik, he also talks about these nonR Jews, including in the time of megillah coming back during times of persecution.
HaKatan > In fact, much of Europe was assimilated by then (thanks to Zionism and other -isms).
I don’t think non-R Z were the significant source of assimilation. They mostly recruited among people who were already assimilated. And followers of Z ended up way better than followers of the alternative isms – communists, bundists, etc. Many former ended up in Israel and their grandchildren are Jewish and may be religious, and the latter were either assimilated or killed, or ended up behind iron curtain.
>> I am not well versed in these fancy English phrases and philosophical debate kind of terms that you use.
Menachem> Chaim, he assumed you could just look them up online.without internet?! catch-22 …
for full disclosure, I do have an encyclopedia and I fought a battle to make kids interested in using it. They are winning with the score 6:1 – shabbos is the only day they ever looked it up.
so those who actually looked at the platform – could you list things you agree with, and things you disagree with? this platform is helpful by defining a lowest common denominator that multiple groups signed to and making into into bullet points for us to analyze. What’s your score?
non political> I would like to understand on what grounds joining the WZO is permitted.
to answer this, we need to understand your objections to their platform.ZSK, do any yeshivos in America use quantitative marks? tests? class rank?
I recently found that R Soloveitchik was also bothered by this already in the 50s. He writes – how is that I am giving the same semicha to a talented T’Ch and to a B- student. Did YU or anyone else figured out semicha cum laude?
I am very puzzled by the enigma of whether R Chaim allowed WZO voting. I did not watch the video, but apparently the question was repeated to him in Hebrew omitting the word “world” (olami) and he responded with one word.
What I am puzzled about is – so many people had this question. Was it just one who asked and got it on video? Others did not care about R’ Chaim’s opinion or presumed they know his position? R Chaim answered the question without fully understanding it? People did not understand his answer as yes or no, and did not ask again? If you could not figure out his answer in this case, how about 1000 of other times when R Chaim replied yes or no?
If an esteemed Rav holds that R Chaim’s answer is misinterpreted or is unclear, then what does it mean about all people who went to R Chaim with their questions? Were they all dupes? Then, why esteemed Rav did not warn people not to go to R Chaim after he reached certain age? Or did he?
>> “Frum Jews are not supposed to live like the Amish. Not having devices is living like Amish.”
> Fallacy of the converse.We all get caught up in a moment – and it is _very_ reasonable to be conservative when major changes happen. But look back 100-200 years – are there many technological/social changes that Jews are not using? We ride trains (Chofetz Chaim suggests including trains into our thanks to Hashem), read printed books (do you know what was mostly printed early on after the Bible? right, pornography); we use phones, read papers, drive cars, fly airplanes, etc, etc. OK, we watch TV less than an average goy. So, eventually we will learn how to use smartphones safely. Some might have already figured it out.
toonapish, thanks for the list.
I am not really bothered by this list. Are you bothered by “unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael”, etc?Some of that is mushy, indeed, and it is not clear what it stands for.
As to your concern about what is _not_ mentioned, this platform is to unity all Jews, and we do know that there are non-religious Jews, right? Are we not allowed to join them in discussing politics and security of millions of Jews in Israel?
Note, btw, that the platform _does_ mention Torah – about as much as your wedding declaration “al dat Moshe veIsrael”. Platform includes:
– by furthering Jewish … education, fostering spiritual and cultural values [das Yisroel]
– Strengthening Israel as a Jewish … state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a
unique moral and spiritual character [mussar] , marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people [ahavas Yisroel],
rooted in the vision of the prophets [including Moshe]
striving for peace [shalom] and contributing to the betterment of the world [tikkun olam, if you will]if this list is not enough, you should not get married under that vague declaration either.
HaKatan, this is a good exposition of what secular Zionism stands for in terms of “nationalism”. Indeed. First, you obviously understand that RZ do not hold such views. Seems that your problem with RZ is that they are willing to collaborate in politics with those secular Zionists. How is this tactical disagreement even important in the Torah sense? We have Jews voting for D- and for R- in USA, hoping that corresponding policies will be “good for the Jews”. We all daven together despite that. So, some religious Jews in Israel are trying to improve religious and economic life of Jews in Israel by participating in Knesset and joining in some subcommittees with members of Labour or something. They still eat kosher and keep shabbos. Why are you bothered by what they do? They may be right or they may be mistaken and their work may be futile, why are you wasting your energy on denouncing them instead of learning some Torah or some mussar about how to talk nicely to other Yidden?
I think the just published kol koreh firmly resolves the issue- in favor of ambiguity. Before listing their opinion, esteemed authors say: we don’t want to impugn the Torah of talmidei chachamim that permitted.So, you should not also
somejew > what is this “zionist shita in Torah”?
I don’t know what is a “zionist shita” and I don’t know what is “anti-zionist shitah”. Are you talking about gemorah supporting Ben Gurion’s views? The issues involves probably hundreds of specific questions, and many can be, and were, addressed from different perspectives.
For example, “can you have a zionist flag in shul” is a specific question, and I understand it. It seems that R Moshe answered (in early years) that it should not but it is not worth fighting about. Just from this question, you can see that it is possible to ask specific questions, there is nothing to be ashamed of, or disgusted by, (both ways – I can see people being outraged at bringing the flag, and people outraged at removing the flag). So, maybe we should discuss specific questions that bother you based on your reading of Satmar Rebbe.
somejewiknow > There is wide space between “go learn and figure it out on your own” and “you expect a one-page proof?”.
Here a couple of small books by/based on Rav Soloveitchik
The Return to Zion. Addresses on Religious Zionism and American Orthodoxy, 2021 – in Yiddish or English
Community, Covenant And Commitment: Selected Letters And Communications, 2021Avram,
I would not let kids out of the house with phones in uncontrolled environment (friends, park, library) unless they have demonstrated good behavior. How about this algorithm to take into account your concerns:
First establish a glued device; teach them good computer skills in additional to other middos; then; then reduce visible surveillance why continuing secret one to quickly catch problems in case they happen; after you are sure of their good behavior and they are almost ready to go to college, give them portable devices. The last line is not just humor: you want them to model independent behavior before they get out of your control.several more references I found online, I am selecting the ones that look more plausible, but of course requires double-checking
.R Ya’akov Kamenetsky writes in his Emes Le-Ya’akov Al Ha-Torah (Exodus 12:2 n. 17):
It is incumbent on us to understand that the establishment of the state of Israel in our day, after the the great destruction and despair that overtook the remnant, and given the desperate and destroyed status of Russian Jewry, God caused the establishment of the state of Israel in order to strengthen the connection to Judaism and to sustain the link between the Jews in exile and the Jewish nation.R. Eliyahu Dessler has two relevant letters, from 1948 and 1949, that were published in Mikhtav Me-Eliyahu, vol. 3 pp. 349-353. He writes that he is hesitant to call the establishment of the state of Israel and the ensuing military victory the beginning of the Redemption, but he considers it a possibility (i.e. a Hopeful Zionist position). He also has harsh words for anyone who refuses to see God’s miraculous intervention in this, considering them heretics who reject Divine Providence.
Another time [R. Eliezer] Silver was in a quandary within himself and with his associates [was] regarding a Bonds for Israel dinner in his city. Every year Silver publicly supported this event and attended the dinner. In 1964 the guest of honor was to be Nelson Glueck, the president of the Hebrew Union College. Many Orthodox Jews felt that Silver should not be present at an affair honoring such a prominent Reform Jewish personality. Nevertheless, Silver did attend, since his concern for the cause and feeling of communal responsibilities won out. At the affair, when questioned about his presence, Silver declared, “How could I stay away from a dinner aiding the State of Israel?…”
Silver also exerted his influence in the determination of Agudat Israel and Agudat Harabanim policy towards the formation of the Jewish State. Silver himself had always been in favor of such a state, despite his Agudat Israel ties. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Silver marched in a New York Zionist parade in its support. When Chief Rabbi Abraham Kook visited the United States in 1924, the Agudat Harabanim invited him to adress its convention…
Silver’s letter [in opposition to Satmar anti-Zionist activities] did not abate the course of action of the Satmar element. It did, however, strengthen the more moderate forces in American Orthodoxy. His viewpoint was widely cited in Mizrachi circles. Silver later participated in a Mizrachi conference. Afterwards, at an Agudah conclave, there were those who desired to disbar Silver. It was reported that Rabbi Kotler opposed this request…
R. Teitz left a radio on in his study over Shabbat, November 28/29, 1947, in order to hear the vote in the United Nations… In ten years, we suffered a concentrated exile equal to that of all the preceding centuries. Now it is time to go to a city of refuge… in an essay for the New Year 5709 [October 1948] on “The State of Israel and the Torah-Jew.” He asked, “Will we be a generation of mourners for the great destruction” or “a generation of redemption, of builders who establish the foundation for the Jewish future?”… He thought that the founding of the state of Israel eliminated most of the differences between Agudath Israel and Mizrachi, which had centered on the question of whether there should be a Jewish state at all. Once this question had been answered with a fact, the parties should cooperate. R. Teitz met regularly in 1948-49 with a group trying to create a united religious front in Israel, but the two groups elected to remain separate.
R Moshe Feinstein:
Igros Moshe, Orech Chaim vol I, chap 46 whether it is permissible to pray in a synagogue which displays an Israeli flag: “Even though it is improper to bring the flags into shul, and all the more so not to keep them there permanently, and all the more so, not near the Aron Kodesh, and one should try to remove it peacefully. However, to make a fight over this is forbidden.”response to his grandson who enlisted in the Israeli army, which is published in T’chumin 5, pp.11, and so it seems also from his response in Or. Ch. 4, 70, 11, which was written in the year 1979/5739.
R. Moshe Feinstein was asked about the prayer for the state of Israel. He said that it should be modified to indicate a Hopeful Zionist view, instead of a Messianic Zionist approach. The text, as he recommended, is as follows: “Our Father in heaven, the rock of Israel and its redeemer, bless the state of Israel that it become the beginning of the sprouting of our Redemption (she-t’hei reishis tzemihas ge’ulaseinu).”
R Ovadia Yosef:
– forbade the flying of the Israeli flag in synagogues, calling it “a reminder of the acts of the evil-doers”. While serving as Chief Rabbi, he allowed the recitation of psalms of praise after prayers without a blessing on Israel Independence Day; he did not permit saying Hallel either as a part of the prayer service (where it is normally recited on holidays) nor with the customary blessings before and after that are only said on holidays.– acknowledged that the Jewish people experienced a miracle with the establishment of the State of Israel; however, since the miracle did not include all of the Jewish people, If the congregation wishes to say Hallel without a blessing after the prayer service, they should not be prevented.
– What is anti-Zionist? It is a lie, it is a term which they have concocted themselves. I served for ten years as a Chief Rabbi – a key public position in the State of Israel. In what way are we not Zionists? We pray for Zion, for Jerusalem and its inhabitants, for Israel and the Rabbis and their students. What is Zionist? By our understanding, a Zionist is a person who loves Zion and practices the commandment of settling the land. Whenever I am overseas I encourage Aliyah. In what way are they more Zionist than us?
– Yosef’s grandson points out his grandfather’s positive attitude towards the IDF, in that whenever the Torah Ark is opened, Yosef blesses “mi sheberech” for IDF soldiers
In 2010: Yosef and Shas’ Moetzet Chachamei HaTorah (Council of [Wise] Torah Sages) approved Shas’ membership in the World Zionist Organization
in order to be accepted to the WZO, Shas had made some significant changes in its charter – including adopting the “New Jerusalem Program” that recognizes the foundations of Zionism. The New Jerusalem Program is a plan that recognizes the centrality of the State of Israel and of its capital Jerusalem in Jewish national life. The program was formulated over a long period by the various members of the WZO, and was formally accepted in 2004. It was also reported that the World Likud, long a WZO member, and Shas had agreed to become a joint WZO faction that will be “World Likud-Shas.”yankel > Multiple times klal yisrael are being described with the moniker of ‘am’
This might be where the problem is. Some people are eager to exclude everyone who disagrees with them from am yisroel. This is understandable going not so far back to various anti-religious groups – from reform to zionists to bundists to communists. I heard from some old people in NY showing to a place near their shul – “this is where communists were bringing food on yom kippur”. And this is in US, think how things were in Russia or Eastern Europe.
R Berel Wein traces antagonism between early Israel leaders and religious communities back to Russian under Czar forcing (religious) kahal to select (mostly poor) children to be recruited into the army. So, attitudes survive for long time …Still, it seems this attitude is not relevant in these times, especially after Shoah and after Soviet Jews coming out in large numbers and next generations of both American and Israeli Jews being more ignorant than antagonistic … R Steinsaltz writes that Jews are not a nation, nor a religion, but a “family” – where people sometimes agree, sometimes disagree, but still stick together over long time … And we can see here that even those who don’t see others as “am”, still come to argue their point! hypocritical, but still in the family.
ZSK, someone should develop a TSAT, a Torah SAT and then get gedolim to support it. Sara Schenirer did not wait for Chofetz chaim to come up with an idea to do schools for girls … In our day and age, we need some simple measure of learning – not just for exemptions, but also for allocating tzedokah, shidduchim … it is silly to rely on “he is a smart boy” from some unknown rebbe. I realize that there are some distortions caused y measurements (people studying for tests, there are many ways to learn Torah, etc), but I think benefits are more important.
> Ran in Nedarim
Again, they are free to live there and defend themselves. In all your postings, you seem to have profound confusion between what a person can do on his own and what he can do by taking from others without their permission. I suggest reviewing R Dessler’s essay on taking and giving personalities and maybe Maseches Nezikin.
> aptitude is no prerequisite.
sure, if your parents or in-laws can support you and provide protection. But sometimes practicalities matter. R Aha b’ Yaakov sent his son to the yeshiva, while staying behind working the fields. When the son came back at the end of the year, he examined his son, saw that the progress is not high enough, so he left his son working and went to yeshiva himself (where minor miracles happened for him upon arrival …). So, was he a worse parent than today’s charedim not letting his son doodle on the pages of Mishna for another year?
> I’ve been very clear that I oppose any mitzvah observant Jew from joining the chazer-treif IDF,
so, then why are dreining my kopf with talking about T’Ch? trying to get more sympathy? Using gnevas daas to support your “Torah-based” views? what could be more chazer than being not honest when pretending to defend Torah positions?!
Hakatan > Judaism is a Nationality, not (only) a religion
thanks for specifying your concerns that we can discuss!
Is it not true? What does it mean for you that you deny that there is “am yisroel” and “goy kadosh”? and “am chacham venavon”?
What does it mean in practice – that you don’t care about any non-religious or “traditional” Jews in Israel and do not consider them your brothers?
Please specify what is exactly wrong with saying that Judaism is a goy/am in addition to dat (word not in the Chumash, I think)> . The Zionist “State” is the Nation-State of that religion.
here, I think, opinions differ, although again not clear what are you denying. That Israel exists? that it has a “right to exist”?
How is it different from any other state that Jews live in? There is a difference that there is rov yehudim in the country, at least,
so if you find a lost gold bar, you should look for the owner – as opposite to US Senate (where you give it straight to Sen Menendez)somejew, I have no idea what you are asking. I suggested reading up on R Soloveitchik books and see what you think about that. Others suggested other authors. Maybe the disconnect is that you are looking for a one-page disproof of Vayoel Moshe? I don’t think this is fair to anyone including Satmarer Rebbe. If he were an unknown person from St Mary, publishing his interpretation of a gemora, it will be as well known as any CR post. He developed a certain philosophy and raised thousands of students, and that is why his opinion is important. So are other Teachers that we mentioned. So, good read up their writings, try to understand what they are writing about, and then come back and tell us what you think, and we can have a discussion. And, again, onus is on you because you deny validity to whole large group of observant Jews. I am not accusing Satmar Chassidim of kefirah, I do not need to prove anything.
Who is this crowd? Are they recent BTs or yeshiva graduates? If the former, then interest them in sme additional exciting learning that opens something new to them. If the latter, advice is the same + go to their yeshiva rebbes and ask them why their graduates did not acquire desire to learn after graduation.
Zsk, that is why I am suggesting to discuss rabbis who had first hand respect from other well-known rabbis. U wonder whether some jew would dare addressing r Soloveitchik without the title in the presence of R Moshe.
Ujm, if you are a serious student of history, you would of course read both Hertzl and Marx ad many others.
If you are not comfortable in your emunah, you can read R Berel Wein, he read them for you.But here we have a different case. Some jew paskens that r Soloveitchik needs to answer Satmar rebbe, despite r Soloveitchik writing multiple books on is own. How about asking whether doing reverse: read r Soloveitchik and then go see whether Satmar rebbe ever responded.
ujm > “it is unfair that the Torah scholars are exempt from the army”
so, you are in favor of charedim who are not Torah scholars to go to the army. Maybe, there are several questions here (1) those who are not learning and (2) those who cannot pass a test on their learning (3) those who pass the test but do not show Torah attitudes in their behavior towards other Jews?
As one ger, former rapper, wondered – if we have more students now than at the time of Rambam, then our generation would have 100 Rambams. Where are they?
ujm > The Zionst-come-latelys can move to Iran, Russia and Poland
why? Israeli Jews, more-or-less, accept democracy, vote in elections, and follow the laws enacted by the elected government. So, only those who disagree with that have a problem. And, again, solution is very simple – you can stay within EY and move to areas not currently under control of Medinah.
somejew > who are the “rabunim” you would want at such a meeting that are pushing Jews to vote
EH seem to have at least 2 rabbis on their board, maybe not at the level of those who werfe talking at the asifah. Otherwise, there are a number of rabonim at RIETS who could express pro-WZO line, such a R Schachter, R Willig, R Lebowitz, R Mayer Twersky. I really really do not understand why we-all do not insist of having our leaders express their opinion in the presence of others at their level. We should all learn from their debates, the same way we learn from debates of Tannaim and Amoraim.
Hellooooo, are there any anti-Z out there who actually read R Kook or R Soloveitchik in the original? It appears that writings of these Rabonim are more powerful than I thought.
123abc> No True Scotsman
indeed. The problem (for him) is that there are verifiable connections between true and false Scotsmen – they are from the same klan!
maybe that is why he refuses to say that, but continues repeating “I did not see any names”.Avram > hand them a full fledged smartphone with a “be good, Totty’s watching!”
you don’t say them that. You, presumably, raised them well and taught them middot tovot. But, you have an admin account and you watch their behavior “just in case” – same way you, hopefully, lock your doors and watch who comes into your house. OpenDNS will show you a list of sites they are addressing. you can check that monthly. If you have reasons to be concerned – do snapshots every 30 minutes. So, a quick look at 10 pictures per day.
Avram > Well, saying “just keep the computer in the living room and tell your kids to be good. There, I’ve solved children and tech for you!” doesn’t sound appealing to me either.
I am NOT saying that this is just one thing to do. I am saying it is one of the things to do!
>> admin account.”
> They’ll have my bank account, email account, and photos, but at least they can’t update my drivers!again, this is just one of the things to do, not the only one. With admin rights, all accounts on this computer will be compromised, your hard drive will be encrypted until you pay ransom, and your computer will be used as a server to do more illicit activities. I’ll stop here so not to give people more ideas.
and yes, why not have your email separate from your bank?
ZSK > There is plenty of room to argue Charedim are selfish for not considering themselves part of the Kahal
There is a concept in mussar to verify that your actions are actually based on correct motivation. Say, Alter from Slobodka did not want to go great some visitor that others considered hoshuv. To make sure he is not doing it because he is stam lazy, he walked to the hotel, stopped there, thought it over again, and walked back home. So, a true charedi will not put himself in a position where his views dictate him actions that are convenient for him. If you think you should not be drafted, take upon yourself to go do something supportive of soldiers equivalent amount of time every day.
> So the Zionists caused a hundred years of wars and terrorism
I can understand Jews from Old Yishuv complaining, but most of the charedim came to EY when Zionists “were already in the Land”.
So, what rights do they have to complain? Just move to Iran or Russia, explain to them that you are anti-Z, and live happily thereafter.ujm > That Chilonim don’t accept תורתו אומנותו as a valid exemption is absolutely no reason anyone shouldn’t utilize that exemption, regardless of Chilonim not accepting it.
Gemora brings such example in Bava Basra – Rabonim refused to pay roman tax. The “chilonim” did not like that. Rabbis told them – you can leave. At the end, after the last launderer left, the romans abolished the tax. So, just move to one town, let Tzahal leave you alone. That is fair. Accepting protection and not paying for it is against halakha.
ujm, I don’t have the primary source right now, quoting from secondary sources. It appears that your assertion is not correct and RJBS continued in SCA despite all opposition and his own reservations.
RJBS sees two expressions of Jewish unity – (1) as covenantal community “You shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” and
(2) based on joint historical fate “, it is a people that shall live alone”. This second one unites all Jews, religious or not, including in the eyes of our enemies. From this, it follows, as we mentioned above, (1) a need to be separate from non-religious groups/non-O groups in issues of religion and (2) a need for joint action/unity in communal issues.now secondary analysis:
The Synagogue Council of America had been organized in 1926 by the six organizations comprising the three mainstream Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox rabbinical and congregational associations, including the RCA and Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America…SCA often found itself crippled by differences among its member organizations, and survived as long as it did on the strength of a one-organizational veto, which allowed the Orthodox groups to reject any joint action (particularly one that might be perceived as straying into the “spiritual” realm) they disagreed with.
…
In 1956, the Rav’s support for the SCA came under attack both from within his community (the RCA) and from without (the Lithuanian yeshivah world). Just days before the RCA’s Halakha Commission, of which the Rav was the chair, was to meet to address a petition from the RCA’s leadership to require withdrawal from the SCA, the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinical Alliance issued a public ban on all Orthodox participation in the SCA as well as other joint rabbinical boards. Neither the Rav nor the Halakhic Commission ever formally ruled on the question, despite repeated efforts by the RCA leadership to force the issue.[11] Indeed, the issue continued to simmer, but despite a widening of the gap between the “two camps,” the RCA and UOJCA remained members of the SCA until the Rav’s death in 1993…dissolution of the SCA in 1994 simply put a punctuation mark on a completed era. With the Rav gone, it was as if the last remaining force (within the Orthodox world) trying to maintain the tension between unity and separation, to restrain the deep separatist forces at work within Orthodoxy, within the larger Jewish world, and in the wider society, was released. It was in fact a watershed. [16] What the Rav’s death marked was not so much the end of the Rav’s influence, but the end of the milieu in which Conservative as well as Orthodox rabbis (and to some extent even Reform rabbis) came from (and in some cases adhered to) traditional roots and perspectives that made debates among them still possible.
[9] Rabbi Walter Wurtzburger, in an essay on the Rav’s life and writings, writes unequivocally that the Rav strongly supported continuation of RCA and UOJCA participation in the SCA, recounting that he and the Rav, along with Rabbi Klavan had strategized how to keep the SCA status quo from falling apart. See, “Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik as Posek of Post-Modern Orthodoxy,” in Angel, Marc D., Exploring the Thought of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, at 14 (1997).ujm, from wiki> [ RJBS] also did not sign the ban by America’s foremost rabbis against participating in the Synagogue Council of America. It has been debated whether his refusal to sign was because he believed in participating in the SCA, or because he was not happy with the way the ban was instituted
so, it seems that his position is unclear.
> The filibuster is anti-democratic. In a democracy a majority of the legislature should be able to pass laws without a minority having veto.
You see how greek culture crept into the yiddishe shtetl of Monsey! It took just 2000 something years.
Who said we are looking for democracy?! Surely, american founding fathers did not. History assimilated lessons of Greek direct democracy and even more stable Roman Republic and decided that democracy is unworkable – for centuries. Indeed, how could you expect uncultured masses to participate in deciding complex matters of the state. Better left to the experts, appointed by the King. The idea was looked upon again in 18th-19th century and it started working after a number of trials-and-errors that cost millions of lives. US as a far-away huge province had luxury to think a little bit and then practice a little, and worked out a system that slows down democracy to make it manageable. By now, some of these safeguards are weakened (senators are not elected by legislators, states lost lots of powers, politicians have more information about voters than voters about politicians…), so stop picking on remaining ones, like filibuster, independent courts.