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DJT did it again – not only he appointed 3 Justices, he now installed an American as a pope (after sending JDV to have a “last talk” with the previous one). Tired of winning yet?
Don’t ask for a too traditional pope – if he goes too far back in time, we will get blood libels again.
Maybe we should also appreciate similarity between two approaches. Both Lakewood and RIETS are a modern innovation – they are different from what was the norm in Eastern Europe from where they came. Old norm was: small yeshivos for mostly poor smart & dedicated students. The rest of the community knew basics but did not participate in advanced learning. It was not total ignorance, there was a lot of what to admire:
there is a WWI diary by a German officer who got a report of suspicious activity in occupied Warsaw: he observed Jewish balagulas gathering in some remote building for an horu every day. This looked like a preparation to a rebellion. Turns out they were coming for a quick halocha class… German officer was amazed, saying that surely Berlin drivers were more educated than Warsaw Jews, but he never saw them to gather to learn together in the middle of a work day. Still, those balagulas were not learning gemora and they were working most of the day.This system clearly failed when balagulas got access to newspapers and other sources of information – in 19th century the disaster was all over Western Europe and started in Eastern and by early 20th century Eastern Europe was also full disaster. So, both Lakewood and RIETS addressed this issue – in a different way as we all know. But the main focus was the same – how to change educational and rabbinical systems to make majority of Jews appreciate Judaism when other attractive alternatives are freely available. Lakewood focused on teaching as much Torah as possible to people who may not become Talmidei Chachamim – and keeping them away from other info. RIETS in 1940-50s focused on quickly raising a generation of Rabbis who could talk to American-born Jews (including children of recent arrivals). Add Chabad to this list, of course.
yankel > Its gdolei yisrael who don’t like it.
I think you mean to say that the rabbis you follow do not agree with the person in the article. Not that they “do nor like the article” that seemingly simply reported facts.
Teiku
We also need to look back at the start of the problem: how come so many Jews became anti-religious? In part, it was the influence of the times; amei haaretz who previously would be part of the Jewish community now had a choice to leave; and attractive influence of various isms.
But, we also need to admit that Jewish communities, and Talmidei Chachamim, did not initially have effective tools to upheld Judaism, it took some time to develop these tools – and by this time so many Yidden became members of various movements … One can say that adequate response was early developed by R Hirsh (and attempted before by Mendelssohn), R Salanter, Beis Yaakov movement, but really developed after WW2 both in Israel and US. During 1930s, Chofetz Chaim writes a lot about problems but offers almost no solutions, except “keep at least one cheder in each town so those who still want would be able to send kids there”. He even pleads with Polish President to rescind sanitation requirements on the mikvaot because Jewish communities were not able to abide by them…
So, two major approaches survived: (1) going to the desert to avoid any contact with anything “modern” and (2) developing approach that allows people to understand modernity in the Jewish context. After about 80 years, I would say approach (1) had definite successes “in the short term” by creating large community with large families of those previously committed, and (2) had definite success attracting more assimilated and educated people. At some point, we should get out of survival mode and ask the question – is Hashem looking for a nation that reads old books or a nation that reacts to the world that He sent us to.
A lot of feelings towards Zionism were based on the politics of the time. But was “Zionism” the real issue? Imagine, there is no WW2 and many Jews still live in Eastern Europe. Would “Zionism” be the biggest problem? No, it would be communists in Russia, all kind of secular movements all over Europe, German Reform, etc. So, just because the confrontations moved to EY and the only remaining secularists were Zionists does not change that the core problem was secular anti-religious movements in whatever form they happened. As you see now, Israeli left is not so Zionist any more, but it is still in confrontation with Judaism.
Duvidf > The fact that we have no system of appointing legitimate Rabbis to a Sanhedrin or some sort of supreme Rabbinical court is the main churban of our times.
This is not the only one. Current Batei Dinim have a very narrow area to operate – kashrus, marriages, yeshiva curriculum, days to say tahanun … maybe that is why they are spreading out into politics. R Soloveitchik writes about that – we first lost dinei nefashos at the end of 2nd commonwealth, then karbonos … he says that he remember his grandfather R Chaim dealing with business problems brought to him, we do not have a lot of those. So, maybe start asking dinei mamonos from your beis din and they’ll have less time to make pronouncements about WZO voting.
Avi > Why does Malchut Bet David require dismantling Israel c”v?
Good question. By Rambam, zman moschiach will be only different in that the non-Jews will not oppress Jews. Having a state with an Army is definitely a step in the right direction.
chiefsmerel > The word “Druze” does not appear on the UN website even once
This happened before. League of Nations had a charter to protect minorities in Central European countries between WW1 and WW2. Jews in Baltics, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc often complained, together with German, Russian and other minorities providing pressure on those governments. In 1930s, Jewish organizations decided to complain about treatment of Jews in Germany – and were told that German Jews are not registered as a minority.
You need to define what do you mean by “Zionist”? Members of Hashomer Hatzair – probably not. Supporting Jewish settlement and later state – probably many. Also, note that sometimes fierce fighting happens between leaders trying to bring people to join their movement at the expense of the competing movement – does not mean that they always disagree. If you look at recent discussions here, you will see that, say, Netziv, Ohr Sameach were not at the same position as others.
As to general “yeshivos”, we might have a very idealistic view of what was happening there. for example, at some point Telshe yeshiva was emptied out because all students became socialists, so Slabodka sent new students there …
As to YU, I am not sure whether there was politics involved when R Moshe Soloveitchik (son of Chaim Brisker) was there in 1930s, but R Moshe was already involved in creating modern religious schools when in Poland in 1920s. His son, R YB Soloveitchik was of course a supporter of Mizrachi, with some reservations and had explicit goal to produce Rabbis who could work with Jewish communities that had Americanized and educated people. His observation from talking to college students in 1950s that they had a lot of questions that they were not able to get answered either from reform or from Rabbis who did not know anything modern. So, it is R Soloveitchik’s “fault” (as well as Lubavitchers) that there are observant Jews outside of Boro Park – without their efforts, everyone would be assimilated already and you will not encounter such posts on YWN.
YY > The Mizrachi got the secular Zionists ‘in the door’ of Eastern European Jewry in the late 19th and early 20th century,
This seems like a story … Jews had a “healthy” choice of secular movements – bundists, hebrew culturalists, socialists, communists that they were rapidly joining. Sure, there were religious Jews who supported Mizrachi – do you claim that they necessarily became non-religious after that? This is a strange claim. If they became mizrachi, they probably stayed. If you consider any association with zionism an aveira, then I understand what you are saying, but otherwise, I don’t think mizrachi made JEws non-religious. Possibly, it worked other way around – those excited about settling in EY had a religious option.
Even non-religious Zionists have some zechut – they were competing with the secular movements ^, and those who became Zionists rather than communists definitely had a higher chance of survival; did not have blood of ,illions on their hands; and probably have their grandchildren Jewish.> This is leaving aside the whole sorry story of the ‘Rabbanut’, which was dominated by Mizrachi from the start. …The so called ‘Status Quo Agreements’ you are probably referring to, were negotiated during the British Mandate, primarily by Agudah (which at the time included Neturei Karta lead by R’ Amram Blau… check it out, it’s true.) The Mizrachi mostly did damage,
I did not mean to skip Agudah activities in general, I was thinking about activities affecting all Jews in the State. As you are saying, Agudah was making arrangements mostly for themselves, while Mizrachi established Rabanut and affected everyone. Agudah early on joined Knesset, but did not participate in the government. Mizrachi was sometimes struggling about this issue also, but preferred participation.
> Today’s Zionists are mostly descendants of Mizrachi…
Indeed, that is why I think making today’s political decisions based on (sometimes bad) history between non-religious Zionists and Agudah is not useful.
The anti-religious left moved to other ideologies. So, we need simply to see what today’s positions are, not what was happening 100 years ago.yankel > person than the typical ponovezhers.
I believe ponovezh early on would take different types of students regardless of hashkofa. Things changed prob during 1960s
hakatan > Had the Zionists not invaded, the entire area would have remained peaceful, and Jews would have been able to continue to live in not only Palestine but also in Arab countries in even better conditions
thanks for addressing my argument. So, you are suggesting that all dictators in Middle East are due to Zionist influence? There would be no Sunni-Shia wars? No socialist countries? No Al Qaeda or ISIS? They all sprung up because of the Zionists? Yazidis and Christians and Kurds would also live happily with their Muslim majority? Are India-Pakistan wars also due to Zionists? Chinese communists killing millions also?
dak > his questionable statements:
Dak, your thinking is really backwards: you are saying that your positions are opposite to the one of the respected posek – on issues on which, I presume, you do not bare any specific expertise. Maybe instead you just make a note that you need to reconsider some of your views or at least admit that those views have solid halachik backing. Start with something simple, like looking up medical papers on efficacy of vaccines or reviewing YWN death notices in 2020-21 …
So, I am not the only one hiding out. See this reference:
R’ Y.D. Soloveitchik was only opposed to reciting hallel with a b’racha. I heard from a talmid of his that R’ Soloveitchik would face the wall and b’davka cover himself with a tallis so completely that nobody could figure out what he was doingold news: (Teshuvot Yabia Omer 6:O.C. 41
April 20, 2010
Chacham Maran Ovadia Yosef Shlita announced that one is permitted to recite Hallel on Independence Day without a bracha. The Rav adds it is preferable to push off the recitation of Hallel until completing the davening, since one should not insert tefillos into the prescribed text.The Rav explains that gedolim have voiced various opinions regarding the recitation of Hallel, since Chazal did not insert it into the tefilla for this day we are not accustomed to do so but one cannot discard the miracles resulting in the establishment of the country and the ability of Jews to return to their Homeland.
If YWN lets the link
https://www.yutorah.org/ lectures/744024/Saying-Hallel-on-Yom-Haatzmaut
Speaker: Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik
Date: April 14 1986I was davening in a charedi shul, so I put my head on my hand, pretending I am saying tachanun while secretly learning gemora.
In a modern shul, I say tehilim pretending I am saying hallel.> those Jews are by definition heretics (even if tinok sh’nishbu).
you need to read up on yor chofetz chaim and rambam. Join daf yomi as this discussion is coming up in Shevuos 5 … tinok sh’nishbu is NOT heretic and is NOT to be obligated to be hated. You should like Yoav run to your cheder teacher and slain him in case he taught you wrong.
In case of the soldiers mentioned here – recruited into Russian army – were often the poor and orphans – often using questionable methods protecting “more observant” Jews (guilty of violating mitzvos related to orphans and poor), and thus having less chances of being observant. More “regular” Jews were recruited into the democratic Polish army, but still even if they were “regular” Jews (that is observant when in the community), their observance decreased when in the goyishe army… Steipler, for example, was conscripted into the Russian army and was mesiros nefesh for keeping mitzvos but not everyone was.
There is a sheila of such soldiers addressed to Chofetz Chaim (yes, they asked shailos) about eating non-kosher meat. His response was – you are allowed to eat the meat but not such the bones (i.e. not to enjoy it).
Another story I heard is from R Berel Wein – during his father’s class a goyishe/uneducated dressed person came into beis midrash. Rav’s father interrupted the class and got up to shake the man’s hand. He later eplained to the surprised Berel that this was a kantonist who went thru 25 years of Russian army, is very much an ignoramus and not a baal middos, but he came back to the Jewish community and deserves a lot of respect.
hitler killed himself on that date because it was may 1 – international labor day celebrated by all commies and socialists. american commies were for many years shy of celebrating this day the way soviets and europeans did and also prefers to do things on weekend, so US has “walks for hunger” “first sunday of may”, or in other words – first sunday after May 1st. Recently, R’L, there are actual May 1st events.
YY> his is in stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
I am not sure about WZO, but I think Mizrachi early position on cooperating with – mostly anti-religious at the time Zionists – paid off by having Israeli law incorporate some respect for tradition. If early non-religious leaders were on their own, Israel would have sunday for a day off. Eventually, R Schach and others accepted the reality and gradually joined Israeli politics.
> stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
Look at last 100 years of Middle Eastern history. Do you see how Arabs are treating each other? They kill each based on religion, sect, tribe, political party, drinking habits … If no zionists came to EY, Jews of old yishuv – and Jews in sepahardi countries – would have ended up under Nasser, Yasser, Saddam, Aytollah and ISIS. And those Ashkenazi Charedim (majority) who came after the zionists would have ended up being killed by Nazis and Commies or assimilated in goldene medinah. And even those most evil Israeli commies ended up playinh soccer on Shabbos rather than being commie leaders in USSR, still an improvement for themselves and the world.
I am torn between Mizrachi and EH. Mizrachi is an established religious organization in best position to influence politics and developed overall view on all Yidden in EY, and lead by a talmid chacham, R Schachter. EH is started by courageous people who dare to join am yisroel despite opposition of people from their own group – so I’d like to encourage them, but at the end they may not be there to care for everyone but just to get funds for their own mosdos, although maybe getting more influence in those mosdos as a result… I have 2 hours to think about it …
With so many ashkenazi parties – It would be easier to be a sephardi – there is “raq shas”
I wonder whether we will ever have “World Torah Elections” – maybe proportional representation: 20% of votes reserved for those who know all mashechtot, 20% of those who learned at least one, 20% for those who know Mishna, 20% for those who know Chumash, 20% for the rest kehilas Yaakov
Last century fights between ideological organizations are currently irrelevant. Medinah is a democracy, so when majority of jews would will something, it will propagate to the government. So, hopefully more and more Jews will vote for Ehrlicher Torah true representatives, and both anti torah and haters like the op will be irrelevant.
Some jew, how are american soldiers, cantonists and jews in the polish army heretical? But you are right that r Auerbach continues the tradition of rabbis of previous generations in their ahavas Israel. I am not sure why you refuse to follow.
some> drag Rav Chaim’s name through the mud
did you miss an article recently showing a letter from R Shmuel Kamenetsky to R Chaim asking him to clarify his position and his response? Note that this also shows that R Shmuel had a question and would accept an answer going both ways.
As to pseudo-Q, there is clearly a power struggle between R- and C- and religious Jews in this election, as we see from their promotion of R Landau’s letter. So, then your non-vote helps the Reformim. I am not saying this is dismissing all other possible arguments, but it is something to keep in mind that your standing for purity of something (something that R Chaim and poss R Shmuel did not stand for) is of help to, H’V strength Reformim in EY). So, for those who have a sofek, this should matter,
I heard it from a survivor who was in the camps as a little kid that when he went to the survivor conferences, older people questioned his experiences.
Whatever the concerns are, it is clear that voting for one of the religious parties will help religious jews in EY. So people who say that they can’t help with the war because they are busy learning – can they at least make a little effort to help others. Too many excuses.
A question about the rebbe is good, the right one is the one whose school teaches good middos and math so that children do not become listim. Most likely it is not the one teaching in Yiddish unless you live beyond the Pale.
Let’s make sefirah a month of classical music appreciation in the yeshivos! Just make sure you find a posek who knows what classical music is. I am pretty sure many people will say: no gedolim listen to Mozart because if a gadol listens to Mozart, he is not a gadol.
One ger tzedek asked a similar question: we have now 100 times more yeshiva students than at the time of Rambam. Where are 100 Rambams?
5T, maybe compare your nisayonos with how we lived in the previous centuries? I don’t think any of five towns is surrounded by a wall with a church at the entrance, like Rome ghetto did.
We also do not pay enough attention to those who were on the Soviet side of that war. Many did not survive, and some did. There is way less written about them than about those who were under Nazis … One reason – territory under Nazis was freed after WW2 and evidence and people were there, while those who were in Siberia were often unaccounted for… There is a book “Children of Teheran” about Polish children who were evacuated from Poland into Russia and Central Asia, and later were sent to Iran and then to Palestine (thanks to Polish government in exile who insisted on getting these children when Soviets allowed Poles to organize their army from those in Soviet exile/labor camps). The book documents their experiences through multiple interviews.
HaLevi > the closest non-Jew to a Yid would be a Ben Noach.
probably, karaims and samaritans
It may be time to restructure some institutions. This happens in business all the time – time to do M&A and time to split as Koheles said.
I realize some universities are centuries-old, but still – why not have middle eastern antisemitic studies joint with medical school? have them as separate institutions, and antisemites can demonstrate unencumbered by federal funds, and medical researchers can do their own thing.
An attempt to reduce NIH grants – by reducing overhead – is a step in the right direction. Researchers are funded, but overhead would be only enough to make a lab, not to hire DEI administrators
A couple of questions from the recent disclosures of conservative movement pretending to be anti-Z chareidim:
1) it seems that non-O will benefit from O Jews abstaining from voting. So, your abstention will not just follow psak of some of the TCh, and go against others – but also assist non-O movements in their activities in EY …
2) While the disclosure talks about distributing genuine psak, we need to consider an effect of this supposed “mass movement” on the leaders who feel assured by some many people holding those positions. Imagine if a rav would know that majority of people are for voting?
3) As someone said on the front page. could some of our anti-Z posters be paid by the C- movement?
> Are you really that unknowledgeable?
I am not discussing the Army, I am discussing the position of the religious Jews. We are not dhimmis at this point. Instead of saying “we can’t because …”
have a constructive position: we will join (in some limited way) under these conditions. For example, why not create a cyber unit first, or a support unit that drive supplies, or a sepahrdi arab-speaking unit of terrorist interrogators. And then negotiate the terms.heimishe > They have female singers and have forced religious soldiers to listen to them.
Your complains make sense for 1950s, when Israeli government was mostly secular and the religious parties who joined the government had limited influence. This is not today’s Israel. If you are serious about it, then the haredi community could create a list of requirements – and if those requirements are fulfilled, they should direct their followers (that possibly full under certain criteria) to enlist.
somejew > all gedolai poskim spent so much time and ink in writing the lengthy responsa that makes up the massive library of Shu”T we have since Chasimas haShas.
And that is why we have gedolei yisroel discuss whether R Kanevsky nodded or not and whether he was answering the right question. Things happen. There is a lot you can learn from responsa but also a lot from oral conversation. Gemora was completed several centuries after most opinions were expressed.
Yankel, I found these stories online, I presume people would not make stories up, but who knows. Check out if you think this source is reliable or not.
I wonder what are we thinking about “observant” people that Rebbe is mentioning that (1) sent out false rumors about R Kook (2) sent out false letters in the name of the Rabonim of Yishuv. Are such people considered part of Torah and just sinned because of their zealotry or they are simply liars and worse than honest people who may not be shomer shabbos? Here I am getting dangerously towards R Kook’s position and not comfortable with that!
Chaim > is advocating to live in EY the same thing as advocating for a statehood?
I think you are right: there are two issues: settling EY, together with other Jews; and machlokes with secular (anti-religious) Jews. Many Rabonim were participating in the latter whether it was in golus or EY, this was not related to EY.
On the eve of Succos 1973, while the Yom Kippur War raged, the late Rosh Yeshiva of the Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem, addressed his students. These students were not part of the physical war effort, and Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz z”l – who in deference to the war had effectively cancelled the students’ scheduled time off for the holiday – regularly spoke with them about their spiritual role in the war effort and their attitude towards those fighting on their behalf. Rav Chaim told his students that he viewed the soldiers as modern day versions of the Papus and Lulianus of the Talmud. In the period following the destruction of the Second Temple, a Roman princess had been found murdered, an event that generated a blood libel against the entire Jewish community. These two young men – Papus and Lulianus – stepped forward and took responsibility for the act and in that way deflected responsibility from the Jewish community, averting a massacre. The Talmud (TB Bava Basra 10b) refers to them as Harugei Lud, those murdered at Lud, and sees them as occupying an absolutely exclusive and vaunted place in the World to Come. Rav Chaim believed that the young men of the IDF falling in battle would occupy that same exclusive and vaunted place because of their readiness to sacrifice everything for their people.
Rabbi Chaim Shmulevitz famously referred to Israeli soldiers killed in battle as “harugei Lod,” of whom the Gemara (Bava Basra 10b) says, “no created being can stand within their presence,” and he spoke every leil Yom Kippur about the need to empathize with the dangers soldiers face.
Every day, someone would drive Rabbi Auerbach from his home in the Sha’arei Chesed area of Yerushalayim to his yeshiva in the suburban neighborhood of Bayit Vegan. The rabbi would occasionally ask the driver to make a detour for a few moments outside Har Herzl, the burial site of Israel’s fallen soldiers, which was on the way to the yeshiva. There he would pray, reciting Tehillim (Psalms) for important matters concerning the Jewish people.
What motivated this venerated sage to choose Har Herzl for his prayers? I think the answer lies in the following story which is so revealing of his and the Torah’s outlook on your question.
A student once approached Rav Shlomo Zalman and asked for a short timeout from his studies so he could travel to the north of Israel, where many holy, righteous Jews of old are buried, to pray at the graves of these tzaddikim (righteous people). Rav Shlomo Zalman looked perplexed but didn’t immediately answer. Sensing hesitation from his rabbi, the student elaborated, explaining he had some important personal issues to think through and he felt praying at the graves of the righteous would help him to receive the insights and guidance he was seeking. Rabbi Auerbach replied that he fully understood what the student wanted to do and why he wanted to do it, but could not understand why he would travel for hours to a faraway place to pray at the graves of a few tzaddikim when there were thousands of tzaddikim buried on Har Herzl (the graves of all the fallen Israeli soldiers), just 5 minutes from the yeshiva!
some jew > such an opinion is not Torah rather it is heresy.
so, now a heardi politician who follows psak of haredi rabonim is a heretic. Very funny, a freiliche Pesach.
Chaim > All we need to establish was that he was a gadol.
Right. I think many people get carried away that the whole world needs to agree with their hashkofa – or else. Indeed, I listened to a talmid chacham, and he said – this is the way to live life, and if you do not agree – you are disrespecting my teacher! Note that 200 years ago, a simple Yid, like most of us, would not get exposed to such cases – you might spend most of your life dealing only with people who follow same minhagim as you do. Scholars might get exposed to other opinions, but others did not.
It is clear that gedolim disagreed on major issues. From B Hillel and B Shammai disagreeing on who is a mamzer. Can you imagine someone who is considered a mamzer by the other group?! And in our times, it is really expected that different Talmidei Chachamim would have different opinions on topics that are so complicated and different from what we had to deal over centuries. They themselves are aware of this and are able to have discussions. See the quoted discussion where R Kotler came to convince R Soloveitchik (whom he calls Bostoner Rav) to join him in protesting drafting girls into Tzahal, and conversations ends with firm but polite disagreement “gutten tag, Kletzker Rosh Yeshiva”.
fyi, if you only use a computer, you can still use whatsapp. When you install whatapp on windows, you might need to capture a sign onto a phone, so maybe you indeed need a phone with pictures once for registration. Otherwise, there is not much difference between whatsapp and hangouts, except that hangouts do not seem to exist anymore (is it part of messenger now?)
somejew, thanks for the Gerer Rebbe quotes. I think if you were to pose your disagreement with R Kook in terms and reverence as the Gerer Rebbe, nobody would have a problem with that. Notice Gerer Rebbe mentions the falsehood of accusations about R Kook and that even Old Yishuv leaders were not comfortable about something that was posted “on their behalf”.
Also, how do you understand Gerer Rebbe’s position on the oaths? He seem to be advocating for charedi aliya.
Also, I did not fully understand how he views Beltzer Rebbe’s position about not joining Agudah.
> i have never rejected the Ohr Someach or the Netziv.
I did not say you rejected them. I don’t know where you stand. They are seemingly not as anti-Z as you think is kosher. I also mentioned other rabbis that you simply ignore for unknown to me reasons. You finally addressed R Kook in this letter by Gerer Rebbe, and it seems that Gerer Rebbe is way more respectful than you are. Also note that some things that Gerer Rebbe disagrees with in R Kook – such as praising on-religious Jews – are quite reasonable from the POV of pro-Z thinkers. For example, I think R Soloveitchik would be closer to Gerer Rebbe than to R Kook in the issues mentioned in this letter. Also, many of these issues are of historical interest, but are not relevant today as the anti-religious Zionists are almost extinct.
Some jew, here you go again, now arguing with the ywn quote from a haredi politician, still insisting that such opinion cannot exist.