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wtsp > Firstly, how exactly are the Zionists preparing Eretz Yisroel for Mashiach? Secondly, I’m not telling anyone to go fight a war against Zionists. Rather, everyone should be aware and recognize the fact that founding the State was wrong, and that believing in Zionism is wrong.
I am not arguing with your arguments about early Zionists. I may be able to find zechoyos – many of them (not all), like Hertzl, came from totally assimilated background and were driven by ahavas Yisroel, but this is an interesting, but historical, argument.
I want to raise 2 points:
1) Zionism undoubtfully helped save a lot of Yidden before WW2, run away from Muslim countries, from USSR. It was especially beneficial for non-religious Jews who would surely intermarry if they were able to get to US or other countries like that. R Schach writes that Hashem made Yishmailim to hate Zionists so that they do not assimilate. So, somehow Hashem saw it fit to make those Zionists a kli of yeshua. Whether it is due to their hidden zechuyos or some other considerations, I can’t tell. But I bet you can’t also.2) Israel is not governed by grandchildren of King Gurion. Current Israeli government is a result of free elections by citizens of Israel. It has almost nothing to do with writings by Theodore Herzl/
These citizens are who they are – and how well we, as religious Jews, were able to show them the beauty of Torah. There were plenty of years to achieve that. I am thinking that even a kibutznik in 4th generation would support Torah learning by his shekalim if he were to see how nice and ehriche observant Jews are: “yes, I know my dati doctor who saved my child and a dati person who showed chesed to me when I got lost, and I want them to teach their children the same way”.
I first took Sh’A and posters ^ to mean that davka fathers should not be teaching daughters – let her learn herself or go to Beruria or Stern, but form reviewing underlying texts, it seems that this is simply referring to the standard path: there were no schools for girls and there were no texts of Torah shebealpe, outside of personal notes by Talmidei Chachomim, so it is either father or mother or grandparents or give her father’s notes to read.
btw, yoreh dea 246 referred above also brings definition of what is “Talmud” – understanding and developing concepts (davar mitoch davar), and then Remah adds that Bavli combines written/oral/talmud together. So, it is obvious from this that learning “Talmud” does not have to be literally learning blatt of the gemorah.
Note that there are many other dinim in YD 245-246 on which we are not so strict our days – teaching whole Tanach, not taking pay for teaching oral Torah, dismissing teachers when better ones are avilable, throwing out inappropriate students until they straighten up, “Anyone who resolves in his heart to engage in Torah and not to do work and to be supported by charity, this person profanes the Name and disgraces the Torah, for it is forbidden to benefit from the words of Torah. Any Torah that is not accompanied by work leads to sin and in the end he will steal from people” – not bringing these to distract, just saying that things evolved and each isue needs to be addressed according to their times.
Some of the isolationists are really against anyone who is not like them. America has this strong tradition from the time of country founding, when US tried to not get involved into endless wars between European powers. It served the country well and helped it develop while others were busy destroying each other. Until the time US became so strong that it became a moral issue where US is capable of changing the world to the better. This struggle happened in both WW1 and WW2, where US was not prepared militarily (Army was almost non-existent) but very capable due to industrial strength. (Btw, those who criticize FDR for not intervening enough on behalf of Jews, should also give him credit for pushing USA into the war despite strong opposition).
Republican party in 20th century had a sizeable isolationist minority (see Pat Buchanan, for example), and now Trump brought more of amei haaretz who used to be democrats (“uneducated” that he loves). Without this realignment, same amei haaretz would be joint with anti-Israeli left with way more damage. So, we need to recognize that democratic reality and try to work with or around them. Bibi did this brilliantly – by cleaning the path for B-2s from air defense and letting Trump take front stage with a spectacular makeh b’patish, allowing T to take credit but also claim that involvement is one-time only. As Chofetz Chaim sid – in uor times, one need to be klug, klug, and then frum.
Baruch > If it did benefit, it is not to Trump’s credit.
Important to note the logic behind such statements. Go a day back – and anti-T people were saying: we know he is only bluffing, this is his problem, etc. I am not speaking about this poster and this room, but across the board in the country. Now, after he did the opposite of their expectation – same people changing the tune to something else – not to his credit; maybe bombs were moved to another; this is a big risk, etc. Taken by themselves, each of these statement might make sense, but the overall logic is very simple – we do not care about the facts, we just care about finding some other argument to support our position. This is, sadly, pure propaganda, and has absolutely zero information to the readers. In Jewish terms, genevas daas and also zman and emotions of the readers. Similar un-kosher logic is used by many posters towards multiple events. Try to recognize it before you post, please. Midvar shker tirhok.
Who should we call first: a choson or a bar mitzva? The one who is older.
Blaming r Meir or not is catch 22 here, as kavod eshet havero is like his own even when she is not learned, so better not to blame anyone here.
Maybe you misinterpreted this non verbal communication? After all, r Gorelick stayed at YU for 40 years until his petirah, l believe. Or maybe he believed in daas Torah and followed r Soloveitchik shita despite his own changed opinion.
Anyway, here is an example of apparently a rov you respect showing respect to the rov you don’t respect but this logical contradiction is not registering somehow. Go slain your rebbe who taught you boolean Algebra.
Yeshivaman, thanks for bringing this prisha. This questions my teaching approach, but I think I have a defense. First, I am really doing it on behalf of my wife who has no patience to deal with these snobby girls and she hired me to teach them. She pays me well with gefilte fish and even brisket when she likes my teaching. So it is women guided teaching.
2nd, I do appreciate the idea that they may not be always taking things the right way and sometimes amazon shopping is a higher priority as it is mefurash in the gemora. So, I teach only what I think is going the right way. I know people who either send girls to schools or force feed masechtot themselves, and I am worrying about that.
Coffee, I brought Steinsaltz because it is an interesting observation that fits other positions of the Tanna on Torah learning and social issues in general. At the same time, it is a one liner in a popular book, not a scholarly discussion.
I am not sure what is your question on yihud. I presume she was sitting in a regular class, probably outdoors the way large classes were taught at the time. Unclear whether she was an only lady. there or there were other ladies and she is singled out for her exceptional abilities. I listed other options so that you could choose one.
anIsraeliYid > I recall that the issue is teaching one’s own daughter Gemara
How do you then explain gemora’s suggestion that the wife of T’Ch possibly does not require hatraah? And a suggestion to marry a daughter of T’Ch then if something happens with the husband, she will be able to teach Torah to kids?
My personal understanding is that “teaching gemora” does not mean learning tosfos, but can be “merely” learn reasons and derivations of haochos regarding mitzvos girls encounter, agadot related to middos and anything that will help them understand their husbands … when my daughters say that they would not be comfortable learning gemorah, I explain to them that it is too late – I already taught it to them. Maybe you will be more comfortable with this definition.
Menachem, thanks for an interesting article. It confirms that Rebbe opposed demonstrations – but he was not a daas Yachid as I posted (this is from memoirs of one of those students). The article uses, well, somewhat convoluted logic to prove that Rebbe’s quiet help was useful and demonstrations were not. It is probably convincing to those who only read DerHer … Comparing dealing w/ Soviets with French …
Note that the article write about a little later times when Israelis started talking about the issue. The memoirs was about a little earlier times, I think 1960s, when Israelis hoped to improve relationships with USSR and thus advised (lied to) R Soloveitchik. As he put it later: I asked them what is better for Soviet Jews, and they answered what is better for Israel itself. All other rebbeim were concerned, as the article said, that traditional shatdlanus is better and also that KGB could hurt those naive students.
This is absolutely not to disrespect legacy of Chabad in respect to USSR Jews – his father died there in exile, so I am sure he did not have any illusions about the regime, like some other more progressive leaders did.
PS the article is also funny substituting “eretz isroel” for “Israel” even when it is clearly about the state: Soviet Russia cut ties with Eretz Yisroel.
Maybe an editor did find/replace.YYA > Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’.
Indeed, and Achav example is pertinent – even a bad Jewish King is not ready to follow standard practices of goyishe ones. Probably something to keep in mind when judging Israeli politicians.
Still, Shmuel was not happy about Jews choosing monarchy. And Jewish system clearly has elements of separation of powers, to adifferent degree depending on time: king, kohanim, sanhedrin.
We are all in favor of David’s dynasty by now, but it does not mean that some elements of democracy are not appropriate. Gemora and especially Rishonim were during periods when monarchy was a natural state of things – democracy was discredited somehow by Greek and Roman experiences. But it is working, somewhat, in our days, so why can’t we retain elements of democracy?
none > Your literally saying we should all censure ourselves for you. Not say our opinions. Only think one way. Your ok?
what I mean is that when you are trying to convince someone of your opinion, you should present all info, including the one that contradicts your view; when you quote a Rav, try to see whether this Rav said other things; whether there are Rabonim who say it differently. A lot of discussions here are straight out of CNN war rooms, where each side shouts out their slogans in a hope than the other side will not bring relevant arguments. Beis Hillel was accepted because they always brought B Shammai opinion first.
keith > He returns the next day and asks “is it OK for me to learn Torah while I’m smoking?” “Of course!”
I heard an actual story about, I think, R Yaakov Kamenetsky. The student brought tea to the Rav while they were learning. The rav did not finish the tea by the time they finished learning. The student asked why the Rav is not drinking. Rav explained that they stopped learning. Student suggested to learn another blatt. Rav explained: I drink to learn. I do not learn to drink.
katan> Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim.
There is a suggestion in Sanhedrin that a wife of a Talmid Chacham does not require a warning for a capital punishment (adultery?) because she knows the halokha. Presumably, her husband taught her or he married a daughter of T’Ch who taught her. So, it is not just Beruriah, it is a presumption about any wife of T’Ch.
I don’t think you guys appreciate how Trump’s suggestion of further negotiations worked to the benefit of the Israeli attack.
simcha > Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so…
This sounds very reasonable.
coffee > Look at the story with bruriah
yes, she taught her husband to pray properly in regards to some gangsters, and he turned around and lured her into a trap. So, maybe men should not be learning Gemora because of what R Meir did? And as I mentioned ^, hundreds of teachers had no problem w/ teaching her and there is noone on record objecting. It is 300 tannaim against one coffee.
katan > As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs.
where did he write this and what was the context? In 1920s, he clearly lamented that so many Jewish women in Poland do not know how to read and asks those who do to read halochos of niddah to them from his letter. No, he did not propose teaching them how to read. He did not think it is possible.
Zushy, a great idea – establish a frummer medinah between Nahariya and Beirut and leave their under protection of your learning. As Tzahal now holds some of those areas, maybe this should be part of the new law – if you refuse to join Tzahal, you are sent to the parts of EY that are outside of Medinah.
>>> “I can support the State of Israel, without supporting the apikorsis of many of its founders.”
wtsp> This is the most hypocritical sentence I’ve ever read.Wtsp, current leaders of Israel did not inherit power from their founders-fathers. They earned their position in an election. Thought experiment: R Sonnenfeld starts the medinah in 1910 (and why didn’t he?). It is all according to halocho but also a democracy. Then, war refugees and sephardim arrive and they vote in today’s parties. At the end, the matzav is the same. You need to deal with current state. Does it matter who started it.
This is not a new situation. We had a melech dragging bones of his father in public. Do we judge him being a bad melech because of his father, or do we judge him based on his actions?
lernt > Yet, when Menachem Begin asked for a bracha of success
indeed. R Schach also writes that Hashem induced Arabs to hate Zionists to prevent them form intermarrying. So, he clearly cared about their neshomos.
At the same time, when Begin offered full support for charedi schools, R Schach instructed to get usual percentage – so that the schools do not become fully dependent on government and then fail when the government changes. So, he was dealing with realistic expectations trying to build a healthy system.
Parenthetically, I do not understand when people selectively quote from someone they call a “gadol”. What greater disrespect you can have for someone than misrepresent his position and making him into a one-dimensional caricature.
crazy, just think what would Pres Biden or Pres Harris do at this point? Probably say – we will fully defend Israel BUT they need to stop immediately for world peace sake. And I know at least one person who agrees with that – Bibi. Otherwise, he would have started this op in January.
YYA > So, when we had a בית המקדש, people could be executed for some עבירות, even at age 13. Not now.
I agree w/ your general sentiment. I think things were similar back then. Gemora discusses all kind of reasons people can be off the hook for a korban – did not know this or that, were onus because they were mislead …
> Of course there is. Are all these chevrah so sure of their own tzidkus that they want to ‘wake up’ the מידת הדין ר״ל?
I think Hashem hardened their hearts for us to see how ridiculous such positions are when they are taken to the extreme – and so that we grow in our rachmonus and achdus.
> thank Hashem instead of thanking their army or America.
I don’t know about you, but I go through life usually thanking people for doing something for me, starting from my wife’s dinner to a driver who decided not to run me over. Are you freezing every time to decide whether this person deserves thanks or only Hashem does.
I guess I can see if someone clearly evil, a criminal, a terrorist, a mafiosi, does something for me, I might think about it. So maybe if people in your community are trained to consider Israeli government as evil, they need to view it this way.
Sam, De Nile is not just a river in Mitzrayim
Lernt > there is a need for hakaras hatov to someone for having a machshava tova even though the yeshuah would have been brought about in other ways.
indeed. Mordechai says that to Esther explicitly – we can be saved without you. Doesn’t diminish her zechuyos.
maybe not a direct answer, but R Steinsaltz in a small book that summarizes Talmud for newbies mentions this inter alia, noting that R Eliezer is known for extreme views. Rabbis had no problem with Beruriah learning and the fact that she learned 300 halochot from 300 teachers in one day, or something like that, is brought approvingly. That means that all 300 teachers did not mind her in the class. You decide whether there was a whole class of ladies, or she was in a co-ed class, or she was given class one-on-one.
As to other writings, they bring a clear rationale which is not so true today. Clearly, there are women in our times that are intellectually prepared. The rationale to teach them – they might be learning at advanced levels sciences and non-Jewish humanities. They can, and need to, understand Judaism at the same level to be able to answer people they interact with, and for their own sake.
Chofetz Chaim wanted women to know how to read – he asks those who know to read halochos of niddah from his letter to those who are not… He just did not know how to. When Mrs Schenirer started BY, she asked Yakkish ladies with PhDs to help her with the curriculum and this got approved. R Soloveitchik in 1950s suggested to have classes co-ed, otherwise classes for girls will be of inferior quality… He later led the first gemora class at Stern College, so maybe things changed.
Now, in my mind, I have 2 questions:
1) teach those who want to/capable or everyone (within the community that does it). I am skeptical whether an average girl is interested, and it is silly to force them. Many BY classes are silly as is, making girls memorize a lot of material in order to keep them off the streets. Maybe this is what R Eliezer warned about.2) what is “gemora”. The abstract meaning is – reasoning behind mitzvos (v. mishna that is just the laws, to include S’A etc). This is what these ladies need. But when gemora learning is understood in the narrow sense of struggling through dafim, figuring out every machlokes between Abaye and Rava – I don’t think they need it. In my own family, I have no problem teaching BY girls “gemora” in terms of explaining some great principles behind halocha, but they do not have interest in following the daf, figuring out – correctly – that it can create problems in shidduchim.
lernt > We pray for Moshiach to come and the replacement of the current state with a monarchy.
Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy? maybe a democracy with all Yidden voting for Torah-true laws? Or a constitutional democracy with Moschiach presiding and elected ministers running the government day-to-day? Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
> Thinking we know better than Hashem is heresy.
ExactlySam,
do you know that it is just your country that counts days backwards? Are you suggesting, H’V, that Yidden in other countries, including Israel, have 136 mitzvos? OR is the message just for the Yidden of the USA?lernt > Didn’t the chareidi parties agree to a draft compromise? How do we understand that in light of this thread?
Maybe they did not read this thread yet. Or maybe gedolim want to take away passports from full time learners to take away yetzer hara from the learners to go on foreign trips.
Students planning demonstrations for soviet jews asked Lubavicher Rebbe and he advised them against out of fear for the students. They did and eventually helped mln of jews to be freed. So there are limits to prophetic vision… other rabbonim gave the same answer: r. Moshe and r Teitz for the same reason and r Soloveitchik because he got advice from Israeli politicians that it is better for soviet jews to keep quiet. When he realized that the advice was self serving and incorrect, he reversed his opinion. Chacham v Navi…
An interesting question whether every yid nowadays is a tinok shebnishba. Consider posters here. Regardless of which side of every argument you take, you would agree that half or more of the posters are confused in their learning. Even people who went to Jewish schools are not protected from misunderstanding of core concepts and aren’t even able to argue their point without misrepresenting what their opposition says. Gemora is ambiguous whether Yoav killed his teacher for a mistake in one pasuk. Can you imagine what he would do to the current educational system?!
> Example of the Rebbe’s nevuah is that no one will be killed from the skuds.
The real navis were American special forces and intelligence officers who were “seeing” where the scud launchers were. I don’t think they caught them but at least the launchers were always on a run.
Lernt > Every news article implies natural causes instead of Hashem. … But people only complain when it’s Israel doing the winning.
exactly. Nobody denies overall problems with modern culture. We are all assimilated in many aspects. It is not just using phones, internet, and now chatgpt … Look at how we debate here. Modern debate is based on free speech – all arguments are allowed – and then use Roman “caveat emptor” principle to figure out who is honest and who is not. If you are, on the other hand, raised on Talmudic discussions, you should learn how to make truth the center of your argument, respect your opponent, provide relevant information, investigate your own biases, etc.
So, how come we see here even most “anti-modern” posters having no problem presenting skewed information, crooked logic, and other non-Jewish methods of argument. I presume because we all got used to lies and exaggeration everywhere in the media…
some > Poskim have well dealt with these questions, and it’s obvious that such a minyan is not l’chatchilah and should be avoided. Some poskim reject such a minyan even b’dieved.
great, so we stumbled at a halachik discussion here. So, seems other than “some” poskim allow such minyanim.
There are clearly limits here – if ladies in pink dance in, we will not join them or their boyfriends. So, if you have someone at this minyan who is clearly Tzahal or clearly from a non-religious Kibutz – what is the range of opinions from poskim?
note to self and to my descendants: in the future, read the name of the country before settling there.
some > our obligation to completely rely on heaven to protect our nation in exile
With all due respect, this sounds like kefirah to me, maybe you are not expressing yourself well. Or, as I said before, you are holding at a level that is not possible for most other Yidden, but a tzaddik like that will have rachmonus on us, poshuteh yidden.
are you limiting this “completely rely” to golus? So, when Ramban was challenged to a debate – he should not have argued against their religion? Rambam should not have run away from Spain? Polish Jews were wrong forming vaad arba artzos? all medieval shtadlanim were wrong asking for kings’ protection?
or are you limiting it only to the issue of mass aliya to EY? So, you prefer non-religious Jews in 19-20th centuries who became communists to those who became Zionists?
ebrown > The alternative is to have an army run by Torah Jews, with only Chareidim in it.
a good idea. And how did IDF start – with several militias that were sometimes unhappy with each other. Nothing stopped R Zonnenfeld and Chazon Ish from starting their own units. At that time, there were religious Jews who were veterans of Russian and Polish armies who could have started. But it is not too late. Start small – maybe take on Huthis or some other small group.
wtsp > They aren’t problematic concepts in of themselves, but when you intertwine them with love for ארץ ישראל, it is extremely problematic.
…
> Don’t twist up the anti-Zionist view to sound worse than it is, and don’t twist up what Zionism truly means to make it sound better than the apikorsus it is.I appreciate your acknowledgements, but it is completely unclear what your target is. Your first senetence ^, for example, is a statement that hangs out there: you agree that the concepts you listed before are not problematic, but then they are problematic due to intertwining them. There is no explanation here. As you clearly said at the beginning – you selected a position first and now wonder about things that contradict your pre-selected position and trying to explain away all these data points to make sure they fit your position. You are not the only one bothered. See comments by various posters under multiple news articles, where instead of expressing relief when there is less danger to Yidden in EY, first words out of their mouths is – don’t thank the army … there is some psychological issue behind that. Imagine if your wife were to cook you a dinner and you would reply – I am thanking Hashem for this, not you?
wtsp > We are obligated to, and should naturally feel, appreciation and tremendous gratitude toward them for all they do. Yet we can’t appreciate them while failing to recognize that all their successes are straight from הקב”ה – He is the One we should be thanking first and foremost.
finally a statement that I think most here can agree with. Thanks for the post (and thanks Hashem for increasing shalom between Yidden).
wtsp,
I am not sure why POLITICAL MOVEMENT, STATEHOOD , SELF-DETERMINATION are problematic concepts in general, unless you make some additional assumptions?aguda is a POLITICAL MOVEMENT
STATEHOOD is every state in the world.
SELF-DETERMINATION is something Jews always pursued even within other states (Vaad Arba Artzos, Ghettos. R Shimshon Hirsh’s kehilla)> don’t make that worse by denying that of course Jews obviously go OTD in that shmad army.
is there any research on those charedim who already went to the army – what was their state of mind before and after the army?
LerntminTayrah> Chareidi parties agreed to allow bochurim to serve in the IDF before the Iran attacks began.
possibly, but it appears that the final moment was that Arye Deri was at the last moment told why this is not the right moment to bring the government down and that meant the end of the rebellion. Not sure – was Yuli Edelstein in the know? Maybe Bibi was killing 2 birds with 1 stone – create an impression that his government is going down to fool Persians and, l’havdil, forcing Shas to surrender. Maybe not just “forcing”. From my outsider POV, Shas always feels a need to compete with other charedim to be considered charedi, but they are happy to do what is right for the country as long as they have a solid excuse, so Bibi gave them that.
Another parallel in negotiations (in no way, I am considering the parties here, hope nobody is offended, we are just studying negotiation processes – and this should be on everyone’s list in Trump times!): Persian non-extremist side of the government would like to surrender but cannot in front of the extremists. So, when all their military will be bombed out, they can agree because there is nothing to surrender. Same might be (just a hypothesis) view of some of the Roshei Yeshivos – they might want to have their students tit and learn, and those who do not learn not to walk and around and smoke – so they might be willing to surrender here, but they cannot be seen surrendering.
Lernt > sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
This is an interesting conclusion, indeed! So, despite early anti-religious Z arguably were “taking people away”, the current matzav is that, Hashem somehow turned it around and the Zionists support so much of learning and other mitzvos also … is this “too big too fail” like with banks!?
PS As to “taking people away”, we talked about it earlier. I doubt that anti-rel Zs were _the_ major factor in people leaving Torah: if someone wants to be not religious per se, there were more comfortable pathways at the time – marry a goya, convert, go to Amerika, get admitted to university, etc. I think anti-rel Zs mostly recruited among those who were already not religious and they were more preferable than complete assimilation. So, these people benefited from going to EY instead of US or USSR.
> “naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? I
This is not what I meant. I am saying that now the whole community claims that they are dedicated to learning despite everything. When people make claims, Hashem often sends challenges. So, presumably those who are not ready to learn in poverty and without rights, will move to other places or occupation. They don’t have to go OTD, they can move to England or Russia or Egypt, and work and learn there. I understand that any mitzva and learning are precious, but losing learning of those who claimed to be selfless but survived on someone else’s money. Sheker is not emes.
some > since the government claims itself to be fraudulently jewish,
current Israeli gov is based on a (qualified) democracy that includes non-Jews – both Arabs and non-halachik Jews. What is the problem with following rules of a democratic society? When Jews were drafted into Russian army, yes many tried to evade, but nobody called for a rebellion against the czar. Furthermore, the (religious) kahal was required to provide the soldiers and much corruption was happening, when poor and orphans were usually drafted. (one of my ancestors was). But the same seems to be happening now – heads of your community are negotiating who from your community will be drafted why trying to protect the rest. There is normal democratic process – as long as you do not lead into hatred towards other Jews because they are not voting your way.
some > I’m not claiming any levels. this discussion is about basics of being a yid and claiming membership in klal yisorel.
Minyanim at the kosel usually include all kind of yidden davening together. according to you, a “true charedi” would not be able to daven with all these other Jews. Mahbe all those charedim at the kosel not holding by your opinion? So, your choice is to either acknowledge that or put those charedim in the same cherem you put all non-charedim.
> . I’m sorry you zionism has taken you so far off
I do not consdier myself a zionist, so please take me off your misheberach list.> if you are attacking me personally here, please point out anywhere I have been anything but polite.
I did not try to trace specific personality. I just see the small cluster of anti-Z posters having very specific characteristics here – they do not bring a gut vort or a gut joke, or ask a good question. All quotes are about condemnation of Z. There is rarely concern about other Yidden, suggestions to say tehilim (as mentioned above – contrary to Satmar Rebbe). In short, there are many posters who bring some story and I, and maybe others, say – I’ve learned something or I’d like to emulate something this poster did. For example, there are chabad posters who defend positions that I find untenable, but I admire their passion in helping other Yidden and in focusing their learning on their Rebbe’s writings.
some> The kefira of zionism has nothing to do with it being “anti-religious”… this is explicit in the first paragraph of the subject of this post
I hear your point, but I think our statements that things changed still stand. The Rebbe’s first par seems to have two relevant statements:
(1) relying on ourselves (2) using force to leave exile.(1) is tied to being religious. Observant Jews acknowledge Hashem’s gifts and our limited role within it. At least, they should. If someone does not, he should be shown sefarim to read. You may project all kind of bad motives to RZ, but at minimum, we can say that RZ minimized this problem comparing with anti-RZ.
(2) is the past problem. Israel exists right now. If your position is correct, then presumably Jews were or will be punished for that in some way. Are we to “do teshuva” and leave EY in mass? any pre-20th century sources discussing what to do after “3 shevuos” are violated? For every mitzva, we usually have a warning, a punishment, and a way to do teshuva (when possible). Please bring these halochos and let’s discuss.
Notice that this is catch-22 – as leaving EY involves a lot of halachik problems, so given problems in two alternatives, you probably should sit and do nothing. And, again, why did Chazon Ish and everybody else were citizens of Israel and did not leave?
As to current situation, Israel is not involved in wars of conquest, but in defensive wars. So, it has nothing to do with any of your shevuos.