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ujm >Are you open to hearing and potentially accepting the view that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism
I think we all here spent some time patiently listening to these positions. If some, sometimes, inappropriately responded in less than polite way, that was after that position was repeated 100th times same way ignoring all the opposing arguments. And, in truth, this is not what arguments here were about. Nobody here would argue that anti-religious Zionism is against Torah, as any anti-religious movement is, by definition. The question is about how to relate to such Jews and how to cooperate or not with them in politics, and how to relate to other religious Jews who find zechut in non-religious Zionists.
amom > e definitely did some masechtos in Succah, and the masechtos that have to do with the moon’s cycle (he used my diagrams and sheets for his shuir). There were more. Learning Gemarah taught me valuable skills.
How did he teach you? I presume you were not going into long sugyot about how this opinion is different from an opinion in another place, but mostly concentrating on the subject matter? If yes, some would say, you are not really learning Gemorah! But (I think) Rambam will accept your learning as Gemora learning in it’s abstract definition – learning reasons behind mitzvos.
HaKatan > None of your arguments about how they need to better understand hilchos basar viChalav are in any way relevant to all of that. Let them understand basar biChalav as well as they can. But they do not need to learn gemara just like the men do.
amom> my father would pull out the Artscroll Gemarah, and I would do it with him… masechtos in Succah, and the masechtos that have to do with the moon’s cycleHaKatan, maybe I was not clear. This educated women need to have access to Judaism at comparable level they have to other areas of knowledge. In amom’s case – she is teaching math, so her father wisely showed her where Judaism uses math. It helped her integrate her knowledge of math with Judaism. And maybe answer silly students who would say – Rabban Gamliel did not know math, why should I … (the answer to the silly question: R Gamliel had 1000 students in his household learning Torah and 1000 learning Greek, whatever that was. Note that numbers are symbolically the same).
So, ladies who learned philosophy, economics, educational theories (hope these mean something to you) would surely benefit from knowing Jewish sources on these subjects, whether they are super-frum or whether they are marginally affiliated. I once attended a lecture by a super-frum psychologist. She made a great effort integrating Jewish traditional views on child education with her practice and tracing it through century. I was so impressed by her effort that when she made a mistake in her math that undermined her core argument, I did not raise the question 🙂
HaKatan > Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik gave a public talmud class to women in Stern College for Women.
> MO schools have batei midrash where girls learn random gemaras. That is all wrong. Period.I understand that he did this opening class (pictures exist) exactly in order to make it clear that it is not wrong. As he is a Talmid Chochom, who was recognized by others as such – even those who disagreed, you need to at least pay attention to his arguments, as much as you do to other gedolim you are quoting. And as much as it was controversial then, I don’t think it is burning so much. From what I hear, only small number of Stern girls attend classes that are pure Gemora (as it should be) and those might be mostly wrongly motivated by feminism. At the same time, their regular classes refer to Gemora occasionally in addition to Rambam, Sh’A, poskim, and this is also as it should be.
I would note that when I mention some selected Gemoras (mostly related to mussar, agoda, or practical halocha, I am not doing pilpul with them) to BY students in my house, they often heard it at BY (without word Gemora mentioned). If they did not hear that, they are eager to discuss also – as long as I don’t call it a gemorah class and then they run away :). The most productive are the gemorahs that are either missing or opposite to what they are taught at BY, such as obligations to work, work ethics. I think with time they accepted that we pasken by Gemorah over BY printouts. So, in this case, Gemora is useful to keep girls’ education from going away too far into factional abyss.
Well, there is such thing as national unity and, therefore, obligations. We have this discussion in Gemora about Egyptians suing Jews in greek courts for stuff we took out and Jews countersuing for slavery. So, the subject itself is legit. Did white Americans compensated former slaves sufficiently? If not accounting for deaths and sufferings, then probably the appropriate measure would be – were they given sufficient property comparable to current West Africans, such as Liberia (that was founded by freed American slaves).
> sure daven, bribe, and run away.
I do not know full context, but here is a different take on Chofetz Chaim on the issue at hand:
Haredi Jews approached the Chofetz Chaim, .. to complain about the actions of the secular residents of Eretz Yisrael [who] .. had abandoned Torah learning and mitzvah observance. The Chofetz Chaim answered them.. “And they will dwell upon it securely and build houses and plant vineyards” (Yechezkel 28:26). He thus showed them that when it comes to building up the Land of Israel, the Prophet Yechezkel mentions houses and vineyards, not houses of worship and yeshivot. Obviously, the Chofetz Chaim, the great Torah Scholar, wanted synagogues and yeshivot to be built in Eretz Yisrael, but he understood that the Revival of the Nation of Israel would begin at a more basic and material stage. This stage would provide the foundation for the spiritual awakening which would arrive at a much later time.Satmar Rabbi by the way of katan> verything (infrastructure?) the Zionists made will be destroyed and that, yes, if the
Ponevezher Rov disagreed: as he was building yeshivos, he became a bohen in construction. As he was passing a construction site for a Histadrut building, he reprimanded the builders for not using reinforced steel. They were amazed at his knowledge of the trade and also wondered why he cared about quality of a Histadrut building. He replied that he believes that there will eventually be a yeshiva there too, so he does not want it to have a shaky foundation.
YYA > many BLACKS are descendants of slave owners
Well, this is not that poshut. In many cases, the slave owners forcibly inserted themselves into the ancestry and the descendants did not inherit much.
> after slavery was over
Indeed, most Americans, and most Jews have nothing to do with slave owning. Furthermore, for 2000 years Jews were essentially the token discriminated group in European culture. Muslims were also enemies but they generally far away. So, we should be getting reparations not only from Germany but also from EU as a whole, Great Britain and Russia. Probably everyone in Europe except Poland, Baltics, and Vikings.
Same irony in America – Jews were first not accepted to Ivies because they were Jews, now we are not accepted as “whites”.
> For those without a smartphone that they check frequently,
Put your sefer there. Or get into habit of talking to the kid and have them on your mind, so you’ll notice that he is not answering.
Another trend that I read about several years ago, but should still be on presumably: rise in number of child injuries, esp in the parks. As nothing is happening, parents or babysitters look at the phone and sometimes at the kids. Turns out something might happen when the caregiver is looking at the phone … This is clear halocha for a worker to pay 100% attention to his work, kal vehomer to your own kid. See also the story about Mittele Rebbe so engrossed in his phone, oops sefer, that did not hear little Tzemach Tzedek crying.
DaMoshe, thanks. Take to heart Beruriah’s winning argument against her husband. Anyway, we are discussing ideas here, not the (anonymous) personalities.
> I did not argue that women cannot be doctors or the like. Regardless, as mentioned, it is still an MO delusion/modernity to decide that girls “need to learn gemara” regardless of, liHavdil, how much secular knowledge they do or don’t have. One has nothing to do with the other.
It does. And the parallel to BY is here. Arguably, there was no urgency in women’s Jewish literacy pre-modern era – they learnt halochos from their mothers and did not have other options. And they obviously learnt – as their heilike learnt husbands and sons were eating food from the kitchens. During 1900s, those women went from families to cities, got exposed both to education and other things and they were quickly losing their connection to Yiddishkeit.
Jump to now. You may not know many Jewish ladies who became doctors or lawyers or, lo aleinu, professors. We don’t even need to argue whether this is a good thing or not. It is what it is. So, these ladies can discuss philosophy at the level of R Soloveitchik or more. They might know psychology, literature, and math. They are not satisfied when they are given a quick review of kitchen halochos. They might be mostly ordering food or letting their heimishe husbands cook anyway.
Now, you might be confused what “gemora” they should be learning. I wrote before but nobody is reacting, maybe I am belaboring am obvious point. Gemora dies not have to be daf yomi or tosfos. Gemorah (al pi Rambam) means understanding of reasons behind halochos and ability to derive decisions. So, these women who have capacity to make medical diagnosis should be able to understand what happens when her coffee spills into her cholnt.
We have an example of this: Drisha quotes his mother on saying brocha before lighting yom tov candles. A poshute woman might get confused by the difference from shabbos, but this learned lady had no problem understanding interplay between several halochos here. That’s “gemora”.
> Hashem allowed Ms. Schenirer to come up with an idea … But nobody disagreed that there was a problem and, for that matter, the gedolim agreed to the solution, too.
This is factually incorrect:
1) Without taking away Ms. Schenirer zechuyos, Hashem first gave that idea to “modern” German DRs/Rabbis. Ms. Schenirer herself first did not recognize Rabbi Dr Frisch as a Rabbi and his shul – a shul. Hashem had to put the idea into the head of her non-Jewish landlord in Vienna to tell her that there is a synagogue right nearby and she does not need to shlep an hour to a Beltzer shul. Only then Hashem had to inspire Ms. Schenirer to learn from this modern Rabbi and then when she was back to Krakow to get inspired to start BY. Then, Hashem inspired her to invite several German Jewish ladies – who had PhDs from university to help her come up with the curriculum. And only at this point Hashem found it necessary to involve Chofetz Chaim – to help silence the opposition.2) As to opposition, in addition to public information – I have testimony from someone who knew her close relative, and she was saying that opposition made Ms. Schenirer’s life miserable.
This is not the first time when Jews were found on two sides – there were Jews in Austrian and Russian armies during WW1 (aka Great War). There were reports of Jewish soldiers seeing tzitzis on the niftarim and wounded in the enemy trenches.
In the case of Jews in the Russian army, if they are there against their will, maybe we should include them into tefilos for shevuyim? If they are there voluntarily, then maybe honen hadaas, ask Hashem to give them sechel, and if they are real reshayim then in minim. I doubt, though, that there are many – It seems that most of russian army recruits are contractors from prisons and remote areas.
none2 > someone can ban others from reading a text
a good point. All those halachik sources, as far as I know, talk about desirability of _teaching_ girls, not about them learning themselves. Of course, it was the time of Torah shebealpe. Still, Beruriah went to hundreds of teachers – on her own – and seemingly none of them stopped her from attending the class.
Note that Rabban Gamliel used to stop undeserving students from entering his yeshiva, so the concept of closing the doors was there.
Focus on teaching may be the source for the opinion (that sounds reasonable to me) that learning should be only for those who want to.
Note that the same is desirable for men also. Avoda Zara somewhere 16 mentions a student who wanted to do Mishlei but the teacher started Tehilim. When he interpreted a verse in Tehilim that the student should learn what he enjoys, the student said – you just gave us permission to go to Mishlei!
none2: weight loss everyone is different and every person has value.
of course. But given weight statistics of the population, we can conclude that a large portion of the population is not in control of their urges or do not care about their health and marriage prospects. Same goes for men who have no job prospects. A specific person might have his own reasons, but statistically speaking, they do not care about supporting their families or expect government, whether zionist or goyishe, to take care of them. Short men are somewhat different, unless their parents starved them. Some people anecdotally reported seeing much shorter population in Jewish enclaves, possibly due to diet and lack of vitamin D, but as it would affect both boys and girls, this might not be a source for a shidduch problem.
Uncle – car seat, sorry it was a while from when I was buying cars by measuring how many car seats of different sizes I can fit in.
None – not my idea, someone else came up with it.Can we step back for a second. Looking at all the proofs on both sides of this well-documented and exhaustive – and exhausting – thread.
So, the proposition is that Jews as a nation are not allowed to do certain things. The material for that is one agadta with several commentaries, mostly in the 20th century. I do understand that a national state was not on a horizon for many centuries, but still the issue of such national importance would deserve larger halachik attention over time. And if we conclude that the issue is important but was neglected over centuries, then we need to sound an alarm and devote more resources to this analysis, and maybe in a more serious and honest, less-partisan, way rather than relying on several Rabbonim who issued their opinions on this important topic on both sides. I am not dismissing those opinions, just saying more is required. Compare, for example, with early teshuvos on electricity and such questions as opening a fridge on shabbos. Early teshuvos are by now totally forgotten when people got used to devices in homes and Rabbis learned a little more about physics.
Here is an anecdote from early Israeli life that illustrates how view on halocha changes when there is a state (legitimate or not). Israeli police had to deal with genavim and gazlonim who would steal cars on Shabbos. They asked a shaila and a Rov explained that this is just property, so obviously you cannot drive to catch them, but, for public policy reasons, you can do midrabonans such as use a bike. You just need to picture yourself mishtara following on a bike the thieves in the cars. Another rav allowed the cars in order to prevent all cars being driven into Jordan.
ujm, picking cotton!? First I’ll buy the cotton-picking machine that was invented more than 100 years ago by the yankees. Second, I’ll request you share your last pillow with me al pi halocha.
> is talking about a band of violent non-Jewish troublemakers, whose defeat by local jews would certainly be fully endorsed by and praised by the non-Jewish authorities.
Russian word “pogrom” is defined as an attack by troublemakers who are implicitly supported by the government. Would you endorse organizing a response in this case?
while manual work might be a good idea in general and qualifies as “umanut” recommended by the Gemorah – but are most yeshiva students prepared for this type of work? maybe because they were plumbing the depth of the Torah? Depending on how you were learning, an accountant or a college professor of English might be a better match to the skills.
What if my ancestors were the unlawfully seized property? Can I sue for the right to reside at the houses of the former owners?
I don’t think it has to do with not paying rent or anything like that. Mitzrim and in our days Chinese and Russian commies keep their leaders awashed in chemicals for the show – and I heard those are not smiling. Of course, it may be these mummies are not smiling because they know they are destined for gehenom or because they look at the current rulers of their countries and lament their inability to rule the country with a really strong hand.
Presumably, the skeletons you encountered are beinonies, so it proves that Hashem has chesed to an average person aharei hamitah. Good to know.
In truth, you cannot say “always smiling” because you didn’t see all of them – and all the time. So, your question will be re-asked during tehias hamesim.> MO’s claim to “need” this for their women – when no Orthodox women needed this
Somehow, before Chofetz Chaim and Gerer Rebbe endorsed BY – nobody was teaching women Chumash and Prikei Avos – or even reading Hebrew. And “nobody” includes Chofetz Chaim himself. In his writings in 1920s, I found a lot of laments about non-Orthodox and cultural schools for boys, and only several mentions of women’s education: one said “do not send girls to gymnasiums” (i.e. there were even no non-O schools to oppose, only Polish ones) – and no alternative suggested, just “do not send”, and then an article about halochos of mikva that he suggests that women who know how to read teach to those who do not. He is not suggesting teaching them to read … So, were you to live in his times, you would say “no orthodox women need this” – and you would be able to quote lots of rabbis to support your position.
As to Jewish women having great general education and knowing sciences and being doctors – being a “problem”: (1) of course, it is not, (2) even if you are successful in keeping “your women” away from the books, it is a reality that there are a lot of Jews already exposed to general culture and one should try to educate them in their Judaism. This was understood before R Soloveitchik. For example, Ponevezh Rav opened a school for girls in Ponevezh, Lithuania (1930s?) that out-competed a non-religious school by offering high-quality secular school. That is, local gvirim did not mind giving their girls Jewish education – but they wanted to first ensure genEd. Only combining them together worked.
Put your phone into the crib – so you don’t forget it and also not check the phone while driving. Statistically, I think there is more harm to the children from checking the phone than from abandoning kids.
fish> Zionism is inherently wrong and has destroyed many people’s little connection of judaism
I would like to challenge that. Were early non-religious zionists taking Jews out of shuls and shipping them to kibbutzim? I doubt it. I think most of their followers were already assimilated Jews (like Hertzl himself) who moved from the idea of building socialism in Russia or Poland to the idea of building it in EY. Biggest effect on them – they escaped Soviet and Nazi prosecution, most of their children and grandchildren are Jewish, and some are traditional or observant, others still have a chance. Fighting Arabs has something to do with that, ironically – R Schach explains that Hashem had to make Arabs antagonistic to Zionists to protect them from assimilating among those Arabs! That aos means that in R Schach’s opinion, Hashem cared about them staying Jewish. Hope you care about it also.
yankel, when you put this discussion together, we need to add “chacham einav b’rosho”:
some might say: we are allowed to respond when there is pikuach nefesh. Well, modern wars play out in a way that one needs to have a defensive perimeter with air defense and ballistic missiles and UAVs in advance of a conflict; and one needs factories, researchers, budget to conduct R&D, etc well in advance of that. So, to fulfil “if someone comes to kill you, kill him first” (that I don’t think is restricted by the borders of EY), one needs to organize a society years in advance.eli > anyone familiar with therapists that discover “hidden” childhood memories. ?
R/Dr Twersky’s position is that ehatever childhood issues you had may affect you. This does not change the fact that you are now responsible for your further actions and you should focus on that
Non political > As far as Chareidim believing they are the only ones who represent authentic Judaism. No doubt there are chareidim who think that way. There are also DL chevra who think this way.
There are no doubt those who respect the other side, but Charedim put themselves in a position where they are obliged to dismiss those who disagree to be able to keep their population in check. The moment the public becomes aware that other approaches are valid, then 10% will become unwilling to do things they are currently feel obligated to. So, there is a good social reason to be intolerant, which is unfortunate for the klal.
none2.0 > . But therapy can become an echo chamber of delusion. Where a real friend would hold to you accountable therapy would just listen and let _you_ figure it out. I
the question is – what are the person’s options. Is he rejecting therapy just to argue the point and will not allow any outside influence on his behavior? Then, it is closer to avoda zorah. Alternatively, the person could hear an invitation to therapy as a wake up call and commit to have close friends or rabbis help him work on his middos, aided with learning of mussar. Second approach means something, and we can jointly discuss what exactly might work.
DaMoshe, thanks for referring this good summary of the sugya. These issues seem to be critical:
– Rav Aharon Soloveitchik – Torah Temima (Devarim 11:19) -Teshuvot Maayan Ganim: Chazal only prohibited coercing women to study Torah. If, however, they choose to learn Torah, then they deserve full support of the community.
AAQ: so not just not considering this an offense, but community support?! Kollel Ezras Nashim?– Rav Meyer Twersky – R Soloveitchik: A father’s obligation of Chinuch relates equally to sons and daughters (see, for example, Yoma 82a). The prohibition of teaching the Oral Law to women relates to optional study. If ever circumstances dictate that study of the Oral Law is necessary to provide a firm foundation for faith, such study becomes obligatory and obviously lies beyond the pale of any prohibition.
AAQ: so it is the same social reason that Chofetz Chaim and Gerer Rebbe used to approve BY (despite opposition at the time) – surely if in 1920 the discussion was about Jewish women being able to read Hebrew v. going to gymnasiums, the level should be different when we talking about women who are doing graduate studies.– Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Henkin argue that women who study secular studies at the highest level should also study Torah at the highest levels including the study of Gemara.
And also I do not see a discussion of what “Gemora” means here: learning reasons for mitzvos v. doing daf yomi. If we all are so tied into the tzuras hadaf that we do not see the difference between the two, we have bigger problems.
R Twersky explains that he went into psychiatry because he saw that previous generation would come to his father, the Rav, for business/emotional/medical issues but the new generation goes to lawyers/therapists/doctors, so he decided to meet people where they go.
So, therapists are there because people are asking for them.Is it just the people at fault that they are not going to rabbonim with all their questions? When R Twersky suggests asking a Rabbi on a non-halachik issue, he emphasizes that the rav have to be knowledgeable in the area or have an expert he will consult.
Maybe our rabbonim are not well prepared to give such professional advice? Amoraim discuss issues related to donkey riders and pumpkin growers, revealing reasonable knowledge of those trades. Most discussions do not record calling farmers to provide details, rabbis are prepared (and often are in business themselves).
Are current rabbis prepared to discuss real estate or corporate boardroom or college profession issues? some yes, when the questioner provides sufficient detail. I got myself, and heard others, getting excellent rabbinic advice where business issues involved human relationships, and I saw not-so-good advice where Rav made presumptions about human life that do not hold outside of Rav’s circles. And, I also got humble answers such as – I do not know an answer, but my advice would be … I was not able to resolve this myself …
Anyway, if the issue is not urgent, one can always start with mussar seforim and read them together with someone knowledgeable – and maybe practice some of the advice there.
yankel > being open minded and more modern whereas his eldest daughter was more chassidsh and frum … that explains how a chasidic rebbi took a university graduate as a son in law.
is it not possible to be open-minded and frum? or even open-minded and chassidish? I omit “modern” that this is a meaningless term.
Even R Moshe “took a university graduate as a son in law” – even the one who was teaching biology at YU, and even teaching his daughter gemorah …
It is well known from gemora (and also 20th century’s physics) that talent is inherited from the father to son-in-law. That is, you deal with your sons as they are, but there is some freedom of choice in the son-in-law, and the greater the father (and daughter) is, the greater the son-in-law will be. So, maybe some rabonim felt that learning-only is appropriate for their sons to inherit the yeshiva, but son-in-laws can fulfill his dreams. R Auerbach chastised his yeshiva student young R Lau when the latter expressed disinterest in studying sciences – how can you not be excited in learning maasei Hashem?!
somejew, quoting Chofetz Chaim> and for salvation by way of war, meaning, by fleeing and thereby being saved. And behold — whenever we have followed this tried and true strategy, Hashem has saved us from our enemies.
I hope this quote is not taken out of context – I only saw it on anti-Z websites. Taking as it is, Chofetz Chaim here raises a verifiable position: if we follow him, Hashem will save us. Sadly, this position utterly failed in pre-WW2 Europe – Jews were slaughtered first in Soviet Russia during his lifetime and soon after his petirah by Nazis. Furthermore, I suggest reading his letters in 1920s in Poland during the wave of assimilation – Chofetz Chaim is pained by what is happening, but he is not offering any solutions beyond “have at least one kosher heder in a town”. So, by his own definition, Chofetz Chaim’s position was proven wrong. Same as R Akiva did not defend Bar Kochhba after the latter’s failure, Chofetz Chaim presumably would not cling to the same position were he lived through those facts. As some say, big tzaddikim are taken from the world before punishment comes …
simcha> it’s not so clear that the halachos in SA and Rambam are clearly prohibiting teaching women parts of Torah. The Rambam and SA open up the halachos by saying that women receive sechar for learning Torah but not as much as man because she’s eino metzuveh v’ose
First, note that this argument takes the low road when your opponent quotes part of Rambam and not the other. So, you read the whole thing and can answer. Imagine you would not – and would be misled by your opponent in your Torah learning. You just saved him from gehinom. Thank you!
> What’s not allowed is imposing on them to learn the Torah that they are exempt in, like having a required class in Gemara or Torah Shebe’al Peh
Unfortunately, modern education favors standards. So, it is either schools that pretend they do not teach gemorah (the better ones, of course, teach girls understanding of the halochos which _is_ Gemora al pi Rambam, but they can not say so) or schools that insist on all girls to learn it – and to learn it the way boys do. I personally think that both (many) boys and (almost all) girls would benefit from learning Gemora the way Rambam intended to: by analyzing reasons for mitzvos based on material that is relevant to them, not necessarily going blatt after blatt decoding tosfos.
a little weird to ask this question after many years of learning?
what was bochur’s original plan for gaining parnosah?
According to Kiddushin, father needs to teach the son a craft. Presumably, as with other things, if the father, H’V, neglected this kid, this becomes his personal obligation upon bar mitzvah. Or at least upin reaching maseches Kiddushin if nobody told him before that.Anyway, I would suggest
1) taking aptitude tests to see what kind of work you are more suitable
2) taking online classes in things like computer programming, accounting, and see whether you are capable and interested. Most paying jobs do not “come up” if you have no skills. And jobs/business opportunities that come up without skills are often insecure (see same page in Kiddushin)tree by fruits – I think we have similar allusions in our traditions. Pirkei Avot, 5:19 compare students of Avraham with students of Bilaam. Some explain that teachers themselves both might look respectful, but students show what they were really teaching.
I suggest reading R Twersky’s books to get a Jewish view on the topic and, as he suggests, consult a rabbi who is qualified to deal with such issues or can consult someone who is.
coffee> when you had מכביים for kings in t was called גלות יון
R Yochanan was not responding when his student asked for permission to travel to meet his old mother travelling from Bavel.
Just think, my Google trends example was to illustrate influence of these rabonim in a wider world. Obviously, someone in a beis medrash will pick up a sefer without Google. But if he were to mention this sefer to someone else, his friend or his wife, they might have Googled that … same here, certain rabbonim, as great as they are, are quoted almost exclusively for their narrow political opinions. Even allowing for the argumentative nature of the site, it is a bizayon. Could you imagine viewing r Akiva only as bar kochba supporter?
I am more serious about the yeshiva. I am well aware about some groups claiming exclusive ownership of Torah. It is not a simple issue of having innocent pride in your own achievements. If the claim is exaggerated, and I personally think it is, then this claim is self contradictory, as Torah is emes.
none > We live in a real world.
I hear the real world is catching up with us. (again, I hear) that girls ourdays do not consider it polite to be asked their phone number. Instead, they prefer to get a social media handle so that they can do investigation first. Things that are wrong with the resume system: (1) it emphasizes easily measurable quality – from height to yeshiva name, encouraging people to spend their life enhancing their resumes, (2) they mostly go through shadchanim who also do quick match based on those parameters and value speed – friends and family should be more proactive , sending resumes out in circles around them.
yankel > khazars transgressed the shavu’ot
technically, they did not! The king first was the king and then did giyur. So, kingdom was “grandfathered in”. But how about Yemenites who had a Jewish kingdom somewhere 7-10th centuries, I think.
GadolHadofi > espite to the inconvenient fact that their leadership discouraged leaving Europe
I think Beltzer Rebbe admitted his mistake. Don’t have a quote handy though.
Take yourself back to Poland 1920s – after Poland restored independence at the fall of Russian Empire and after they defeated USSR attempt to re-acquire in 1920. What were Jews doing and what would be the most important thing for Jews to do at the time?
Jews were for first time in a long time empowered (previous experience was Vaad Arba Artzos under sovereign Poland in 17xx) – mostly fighting between each other and against the government – in politics, culture, religion. same things Poles themselves were doing with their first experience with democracy.
In 1939, Poles were blindsided by Nazi and Soviet armies that came with airplanes and tanks instead of cavalry. But Poles are known for their bravery, not for their learning. Would it be wise for Jews in 1920 to take seriously their responsibility as citizens of Poland, review geopolitical situation, and discover the problem? What if Chofetz Chaim met Polish president and instead of, or in addition to, crying to protect under-sanitized mikvas, presented him with an analysis of military capabilities based on clandestine contacts with german and russian jews? Given what we know by now what Jews in Israel and US are capable of, this would have been possible. We have discussions in the Gemora about Jews giving advice to various kings, including an assertion in Avoda Zorah that Jews joined Rome in defeating Greeks and rules jointly for 26 years …
None, yes, the wife is relevant. That is a reason in some sources to learn before marriage! There might be social differences – in Bavel, one could marry and then travel to learn. In EY, people stayed “in town” when they learned and thus had family responsibilities, and thus learned intensely before getting marriage.
I don’t think Rabbis saw marriages as a negative circumstance that interfered with the yeshiva schedule. If they did, they would put some takanot out, like no taking out garbage before the end of the first zman. It is just a normal thing for a normal Yid to take care of his family. R Avigdor Miller answers a question: “when is the right time to quit kollel, my wife and I have a disagreement”. Answer: whenever your wife says so, you have your obligations that she voluntarily suspended for a time.
And in today’s world, it is really not difficult to spend a couple of years half a day in one’s youth to prepare for a reasonably paying ehrliche job, whether a lawyer or a carpenter, and then work part time to support your family and be able to learn to you 120… So, as you are saying, it is hard to understand thinking of people who insist on burdening their families for the rest of their lives.
ExCTL, in our case difference between transients and family is ~ $1000/month – after taking into account annual agent fee. For $12K year, it is possible to fix a couple of things and paint (which is not required every year). Not enough families with 3+ children in this area .. and the ones that do – I think kids are more destructive to property than young adults.
I agree on only purchasing property below market rate.
Good idea on own RE agency, I’ll think about it!
Thanks for the warning on depreciation, I have some years before I worry about that.> is the best form of learning
this is not an only opinion:
R Huna, AZ 17 anyone who engages in Torah study alone is considered like one who does not have a true God.
Kuddishin 40 mishna: Anyone who is engaged in the study of Bible, and in the study of Mishna, and in the desired mode of behavior, i.e., he performs labor and generally acts in an appropriate manner, will not be quick to sin
Rabbi Tarfon answered and said: Action is greater. Rabbi Akiva answered and said: Study is greater. Everyone answered and said: Study is greater, but not as an independent value; rather, it is greater as study leads to action.
Avot 4 Rabbi Yishmael bar (son of) Rabbi Yossi said: One who studies Torah in order to teach is granted the ability to study and to teach. One who studies in order to do is granted the ability to study, to teach, to observe, and to do.JustThink > Why are you only picking on hakatan? Square root said
So, can we agree that both sentiments are inappropriate?
JustThink> This forum was made for the yeshiva world … There are plenty of news sights NOT chareidi, go enjoy them.
I understand your sentiment, but the word “yeshiva” is not reserved for specific groups of people. Netziv headed a small yeshiva in far-away Belorus – and he was sympathetic to settlers of EY. Ohr Sameach also – and he managed to get a yeshiva named after him. R Soloveitchik combined what was previously unthinkable – yeshiva & university in one institution – and even those who strongly disagreed with him, considered him a Talmid Chochom.
Something I wanted to discuss in another thread, but here it goes – Avoda Zara 4 discusses that rega of punishment appears in first 3 hours of the day – of Torah learning rather than next 3 hours of din – because Torah is Emes and this is stricter than just “din” – so Emes is important for Yeshiva.
amom, right – you should be allowed to make your profit as long as you are decent towards the others. For example, years ago I knew a generally decent Rabbi with a large family and a visible in the community but presumably low-paying position. I then found out that they were routinely hiring recently arrived to the county old Russian ladies as babysitters – for an obscenely low rate – like 2-3 times below minimal wage (which was pretty low in the state). I had to wonder whether anyone from that community was touched by the divrei Torah from the rav …
ExCT > but we do not rent to students. Too destructive and transient.
Right, but you lower your profit. Where we are, mortgages are high – mostly because houses are expensive to buy, so I don’t think we would make any profit (even taking into account appreciation) without going for highest paying renters. What I am saying is that there does not have to be a contradiction between trying to get higher profit and being decent. I see it even more in my main business – I charge high but after that I focus on what I can do for the customer. I saw and worked with businessmen who try to squeeze as much as they can from every transaction and they are not successful in a long term.
Once, I was insistently invited for an extra lunch by visiting group after we seemingly finished all business about potential partnership. After some time, I realized that the group needed us so that they can bill this lunch internally as a business expense. I lost some time on this, but timely escaped a dreadful partnter.> undisputed truth of Rav Wasserman’s writings.
I know popularity is not a sign of truth, but it is important to keep it in mind to see whether anyone is interested in certain writings. Because if nobody is, it means this school of thought did not convince many people.
With that caveat in mind, I looked up several Rabbis popularity in web search in Israel and in US for last 20 and 5 years. Adin Steinsaltz more popular than Rav Shach who is more popular than Chofetz Chaim who is more popular than R Kook who is way more popular than R Wasserman who shows at almost zero. Again, this is noto to evaluate, H’Sh value of someone’s learning, but just to note that almost nobody is looking up R Wasserman’s writings in general.
This correlates with what I asked some time ago – some talmidei chachomim are for some reason quoted for their political positions but rarely mentioned in Torah discussions in general, as if they are politicians. The fault is of course in those who quote selectively.