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> This was a direct attempt at shmad.
In some cases, it might have been. In specific cases, I read and talked with people about, all communities, non-religious and religious, were also interested in money paid for hosting the orphans. Not everything is about ruchniyos, especially in difficult times.
yankel, you are at the great madregah of Chaim Brisker’s family member (*) who called a doctor for a sick kid on shabbos. Chaim Brisker suggested adding logs to the fire so that the doctor could see better. The family member started evaluating in his mind whether it is necessary to do that or the doctor can do without. R Chaim got annoyed and went to add logs himself. With your shitah, there would be nobody to lead YU later on …
(*) the way I recall the story was written, it is clear who the person is, but the story does not name him.
Biden says that “it is a land of possibilities”, Trump makes opportunity a possibility.
huju, just because you said so twice, does not mean it is true. Owners, mostly Trump’s people so far, can vote an exception.
I am thankful to this site that enables, and enforces, anonymous and civil discussions on controversial . There is a good reason, not just desire to troll, that many discussions are so harsh. It is rarely possible to have discussions between different shitos in person. First, people tend nowadays to live among those with the same opinions and hat fashion. Second, many would be reluctant to ask hard questions of people they know personally. Who wants to have a shidduch ruined just because you are curious about Zionism …
So, the fact that many/most posters do not seem to change their minds is not just a sign of our stubbornness, but also that many come here with well developed opinions that are not easily destroyed by a contact with opposite opinions. Still, I think people at least modulate their opinions in view of what others are saying.
This is also a great place to practice “what to answer an apikoiros” in case you would encounter one IRL, HvS.
I also hope that people who hold by the opinion that most hoi polloi should not go to college or get exposed to different opinions, but think that they are the ones who cna handle it, ask their posek first.
>> I’ve changed people’s mind”
grammar police: mind is singular; therefore, people is singular. That is, the poster claims that he -singularly, sic! – changed the mind of a nation. Kol hakavod and refuah shleima.
For those confused on the grammar point, see Rashi on tzefardeah makah in Sefer Shmos.
When we discuss a thesis: how many haredim qualify as full-time Talmidei Chachamim to be exempt, can we agree on the following answer:
between 5% and 95% of them?Not 0, as there are T’Ch we will all agree on, and not 100, as there are people who are not learning, not capable of learning, working on a side, do not have right middos, etc.
Anyone disagrees?
> a ‘religious’ Jew [remember him?] traveling on shabbat to make peace between Russia and Ukraine
Naive maybe, but were he to succeed, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive including thousands of Jews, and with immeasurable impact on world politics, including Israel. Might have been enough justification.
I think WSJ OpEd noted Biden’s use of “possibilities” instead of more traditional “opportunities”. Opportunities means you can achieve something. Possibilities means something can happen to you – you can get a loan forgiven or a get a tax deduction…
There was also a tremendous revival baal-teshuva movement in USA after the six day war. Whatever the original non-religious motivation of price was at that, it undeniable lead to many many people do teshuva and becoming observant.
yankel > Huge Masses of Sephardi Jews lost their heritage ,courtesy of our State…
> Without political Zionism, the Arabs and the British could/ would have been more accommodating to Jewish immigrationWe now have a benefit of hindsight. Let’s use it (but not think that we are smarter than people who were making decision at the time, of course).
We now see how Arab countries developed over decades. Some of that was tied into Israel, but most went independent of that – oil monopolies; kings and mild dictators at best; otherwise – socialists; tribal warfare; Islamic fundamentalists; terrorists. Without Israel, Sephardi Jews would live in those countries, and Jews in Palestine would be under a similar regime. Maybe some would have escaped to Americas, Europe and Africa. Think of Aleppo Jews being prosecuted by ISIS like Yazidis were – or by Assad senior or juinior… Under Khomeini … Qaddafi …
Non-religious Ashkenazi Jews who went to kibbutzim might by now have grandchildren in yeshivos and tzahal. Their cousins who went to Americas are pretty likely to have grandchildren at pro-Hamas demonstrations…
All Ashkenazi Jews who did not make it to Palestine before WW2, and those who would be stuck in DP camps and in Soviet Gulag. Many Ukrainians and Russian in Western DP camps after Nazi camps were deported back to USSR where they went straight to Soviet camps (for being traitors and not fighting till death). If not Israel, many eastern europian Jews would have gone from the DP camps in the same direction. Many Polish Jews who did not take Soviet citizenship when in Soviet captivity returned to Poland and then were able to go to Israel, or left USSR with Polish Anders Army (like Menachem Begin). We are talking large number of people here. (True, some of the saved Polish children from religious families were forced to go to anti-religious kibbutzim – not so much because kibbutzim wanted to re-educate them, but every community taking children was paid a stipend, so all communities competed for having more of them).
I think these numbers add up to a positive, if we look at them without prejudice.
Some random places which can help define a Talmid Chacham:
Bava Basra 22: Rav Dimi tries to use a privilege for a T’Ch to sell his figs on the local market (I think because he is out of town, only locals who pay taxes are allowed otherwise?) – but fails a test posed by R Ada b Aba sent by Resh Galuta. And some controversy about it …
Seem to have several ideas here:
– T’Chacham privileges relate to not paying taxes (i.e. OOT T’Ch is considered as a local, and the latter is defined as paying taxes).
– T’Ch can use this privilege only as he is involved in business, kind of not useful for a f/t kollelnik (or can his wife come to the market while he shteigs?)
– Resh Galuta has a testing system, not judging people by their hattire.
– There is also Rava who did not let some T’Ch to open store in Mehuza so that they learn. Not sure what this leads to.Bava Basra 9 – butchers deciding to take halocha in their own hands. I recall the conclusion is that a guild is OK to make and enforce their decision (including slashing hides of free-marketeers) – but only if there is no T’Ch in town. So, this defines T’Ch as someone who can wisely establish a commercial policy that resolves tensions between pretty aggressive businessmen (with sharp knives).
CTL, I think the right word is political appointees. Not everyone is from Obama’s team. Sullivan is Hillary’s man. What does unite most of them, that they are all second fiddles, who rose up through political world behind their masters. None of them are independent thinkers or leaders. Most presidents had such people on their team. I think this is a main reason for group-think mistakes that they make – they all think alike and are predictable in their organizational and political responses. This is especially bad against the enemies who use this predictability to their advantage.
As eclipse is a special type of Rosh Chodesh, we already have some liturgy and minhagim. Maybe there is no reason to announce rosh chodesh this week in shul in those places where it will be visible!
Following Chofetz Chaim ^, we can reflect on what eclipse represents. For example, it seems to be a very peculiar configuration of the solar system that even allows for eclipses (ekleípseon? eclepsim?): that moon trajectory is tilted such that it is sometimes goes into the same plane as earth and sun, and that sun and moon apparent sizes are close. Imagine how un-spectacular eclipse is on Jupiter – when every little moon transits in front of us and cover 5% of it. And if moon trajectory will be fully in the same plane as sun and earth, then would it be a monthly event? not so spectacular again …
jackk, you forgot to mention that Mr. Biden did not find any vaccines when he entered the office. Special council found them behind the classified documents under the Chevy Bolt in the garage. Frankly, it is said that someone just copies/pastes campaign materials into this heilicke group, as if we can’t find them ourselves.
CTL, I also have relatives who never voted for Sen Lieberman, but respected him personally nevertheless. Interesting that despite all talk of independence and anti-partisanship he is lauded for, all dignitaries were Democrats. Al Gore sounded like a real friend and addressed their profound disagreements…
Maybe Bush or Cheney or some Republican senators could have added to the memorial.As George bush X-ed: our country and for the dignity and patriotism he brought to public life. As Laura and I pray for Hadassah and the Lieberman family, we also pray that Joe’s example of decency guides our Nation’s leaders now and into the future.
Can DJT, and other holders, buy some options or other instrument that will protect him/them from market fluctuations? Similar how airlines buy options to protect themselves from oil price increases?
How expensive would that be?
This way he can keep most of his capital till the time he can cash it.
Kuvult, as much as it makes sense to measure reshayim against each other (is there a gemora measuring Haman v Pharaoh? We compare Lavan w/ Pharaoh in Hagaddah, but somewhat rhetorically), Soviets were worse for multiple reasons.
First, way more victims of Communism – more than 100 mln if you count Chinese communists, see “Black books of communism” for details per country.
Second, they came earlier and made mass murder a reality (WW1 had a lot of people killed, but at least laws of war were mostly followed). They killed and exiled millions, including Yidden, while Germans were still having rock-n-roll in the 20s. Nazis came to power in response to Commies and were able to get more power in divided Europe.
Third, as you are saying, their effect on all people, including Jews, was way more profound. With all Nazi unimaginable cruelty, the horror lasted for several years. Those who were lucky to survive recall those years or even months (like Hungarian Jews) for years. Soviets affected Russian & Ukrainian Jews for 70 years and Litvishe and Latvian for 40. When you see Rusim in Israel or on Brighton Beach, these are people whose grandparents did not get Jewish education …
My mesorah going back to my ancestors in Chelm gubernia is to never eat machine matzos or drive a car or browse internet. I deliver all my posts to YWN headquarters using Pony Express.
Ned Lamont in his eulogy in Stamford shul that when he lost to Sen Lieberman, he liberated Joe to his real self; in essence Ned acknowledged Joe’s integrity and him being out of place in the Democratic party.
yankel > If we could have stopped zionism and the medina from taking off , at the time, I think on the balance we should have stopped them .
And, then, what – keep even more Jews in Russia and Poland so that they could be killed by Commies or Nazis or join Commies?
yankel, avirah, so this is a great opportunity to increase chesed – towards other groups – that will be a great step towards reconciliation. Let’s not hang on the “compulsary” and “government mandated” – increase volunteer contribution and, ,I am sure, it will be recognized by the society at large. Maybe not by the most anti-religious groups, but there are plenty of traditional people who will judge favorably. Maybe the barrier to that is the self-aggrandizing attitude that prevents people from seeing what others do to them. So, if you then conclude that your own community is a priority, do not be surprised that others see their communities as a priority and do not want to pay taxes to support yours.
This is not the first eclipse in YWN history
yankel berel, thanks for correcting my sloppy reference to knowing all poskim instead of being able to navigate them (Hashem somehow wanted me to acknowledge this at least twice as the first one did not show up). Not relying on my own reading, I searched how others understand this Ramo, and it seems that it is understood as a pretty high requirement. also, someone mentions that Ramo brings this solely as a criterion for someone not to pay taxes in a community, while it is Hazon Ish who is elevating the criterion to a general definition of a Talmid Chacham.
So, I would be interested in seeing an exam that verifies learning qualities according to Ramo’s definition.
But maybe it is all in vain. I see in R Twersky a discussion about who is a chossid (in my eyes, a mailah higher than T’Ch):
A: the one who wants to be a chossid
Q: but who does NOT want to be a chossid!?
A: the one who thinks he already is a chossid.Sending to seminaries is not voluntary as the girls believe b’emuna shleima, influenced by their teachers and wise peers, that not going there will lead them to a life without friends and shidduchim.
Sherut leumi could be a good idea and could be started as a volunteer service, encouraged by chachomim and organized in a proper way. Surely, there are a multitudes of way to do chesed that satisfy both charedi and medina requirements.
I had to scroll up to see if that was some other yankel berel who wrote that these are young vulnerable kids who learned for 4 years, but already learned rov geonim veposkim.
If you are really serious, maybe this is a good time to define a psychometry type test to measure learning, and those who pass can somehow justify an exemption, charedi or not.
It is also scary then that someone with such learning can fall vulnerable to tzahal… as we know talmid chacham will do teshuva in the morning if you see him doing an aveirah in the evening. So, if you send someone to tzahal and he comes back and continues learning, it was wrong to send him; but if he comes back otd, then he wasn’t talmid chochom to begin with, and he was justifiable drafted. Sort of a breira.
Ok, and then how many of those 18 y o qualify under this definition?
>> “if you know aleph teach aleph”
> cliff in pitch dark.I heard the same admiring expression about aleph used by R Mordechai Shapiro Z’L. Of course when appropriate. I don’t think either speaker meant anything kabbalistic or set theory of Georg Cantor.
yankel, will wait, but you can start by simply saying what your current assumptions are what is T’Ch to whom halochos are applicable. you surely had something in mind when referring to it.
Market-fare v law-fare. Getting interesting.
yankel,
I am not deciding anything here, just trying to understand the issue. entitlement attitude does not start & end with a specific issue of draft. Before going to exemptions, let’s start from the beginning – what are person’s position & obligation towards a community and a country. If you agree that you part of the community, then certain obligation might apply or not. Say, Bava Basra says town dwellers need to contribute to protection. T’Ch do not need protection and thus only contribute to upkeep and not security.One major question here is who is a T’Ch here. As you mention above, you are thinking of a vulnerable 18-y.o. with 4 years of yeshiva. We are bnot talking about exempting Roshe Yeshivos.
There is YD 243:2, for example. What does it say?
There are many mailos of a T’Ch not all of them strictly halachik,. Here is a couple that might be halachik:
If you see a T’Ch doing aveira in the evening (sic!), do not reprimand him in the morning as he surely did teshuva. So, anyone who did not do teshuva for an aveira for a day is not T’Ch?Just came up in B’M daf: you can give T’Ch his lost object without simanim if he is only known to change his words re: learning, bed, having good dinners. So, anyone who said something crooked unjustified is not a T’Ch for this halakha….
All of that does not mean that there are no good reasons to keep 18-yo away from non-religious army. But if you appreciate that you have an obligation and looking to justify avoiding spiritual dangers, then start actively working on alternatives that could at least partially compensate. Organize fully chareidi units; help with training; work in cyber security; take jobs from people who are deployed (major limitation of Israeli army is that most large operations have to be quick to return people to work, can’t afford a standing army …); work more than others to pay for the things that even Talmidei Chachamim are supposed to pay – roads, water, electricity … If you don’t, that is what I call “entitlement attitude”.
Anon, right answer! DaMoshe B+ on a harder question. Also r Salanter. R Kotler is the one not like others.
Common and Besht attack litvishe rabonim for not having fun, fathering phds and otds. I didn’t study whether these two degrees have correlation or causation or neither. Chofetz Chaim blamed the Times: whwhis daughter asked for a brocha to have kosher children, he gave her one to have many children.
Square root may be not rational, but he is real.
RebE > Trump, according to a book by chief of staff
Right, Mordechai also had people saying things about him.
yankel> exempt talmidei hahamim from contributing funds to the defense of the city they inhabit .
So, it seems to me that there are two possible approaches to justify non-participation:
(1) medina is built by non/anti-religious people, many mitzvos do not apply towards them, so l’hathila there is no shared obligation, we are protecting ourselves from them
(2) halachik exemptions for Talmidei ChachamimOn (1), I appreciate historical and cultural tradition, with religious community being confronted by various ideologies. I do not think it applies to current day government and, even more, population. Israel is full of non-charedi shomer shabbos and stam masorti people, they are represented in the government, and mitzvos apply towards them for sure. Many, many of the other ones are tinokos shenishba (by earlier generations of anti-religious). These are people you will daven with together in a minyan at the kosel, so other mitzvos also apply.
On (2), maybe we can have a serious discussion what this implies. Who qualifies; what obligations and non-obligations are T’Ch entitled to; do they need agreement of others or can T’Ch demand their rights. Many, manhy questions here. For example, same Bava Basra brings an example of R Yehuda’s student who refused to admit his learning in order to get food during famine. This seems to be the opposite of the entitlement attitude.
avira > rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk
here we go again. If someone else disagrees w/ Rav Schach, then he is an apikoires. But my group can. Can we all have equal rights here?
doom > Sharing the burden may be a good midah in general, but every middah should be evaluated. Charity is also an important middah … The fundamental of being a frum Jew, is declaring that Hashem’s word is of highest importance in your value system
Thanks for posting a reasonable argument! Having someone else defend you, against his will, does not seem to me to fit into Jewish value system. Pages and pages of gemorah are spend on how to be considerate of other Yidden. Having them serve in the army instead of you seems worse than not helping his animal to unload…
> If your commander orders you to do something prohibited by the Torah, you must do it.
As you look at serving as an optional activity, this is surely a justification not to go. But if you look at a joint need for defense of the community that you have to participate – then, this is something that you have no control of while you are engaged in an activity. Steipler was trying to keep shabbos in Russian army .. and many others
> all of my friends went to the Army, and almost all came in frum, and came out OTD.
this is terrible, and if the numbers are so skewed as you say, even startling. There are a couple of questions to ask:
1) what was their education that did not prepare them to deal with real life. Yes, there is a great value in keeping community safe from problematic activities, but at the end, it is up to individuals to follow Torah. Is Hashem expects us to follow Torah only when fully furnished and subsidized? It is an insult to our ancestors and everything they went through.
2) if you understand responsibility, then you can work on making things happen. Same way the community shows power to protect itself and also find government funds to use, could use this power to make sure that some members of the community are trained to be part of charedi units and deal with tensions between army orders and observance.
Like Trump, Mordechai was under-appreciated despite his service to the country; he rejected conventional courtesy and annoyed his enemy to no end; tried to overturn appointment of his nemesis; he was sued and gallows were prepared; everything he achieved involved charming women; and, at the end, he was favored just by “bare majority”.
yankel > I can’t see any inference from said Rambam to the question of joining the army
Just think it through: what was Rambam’s shitah about surviving in the desert? Did he expect the country government (reshaim that are causing the exile to begin with) to protect the desert community with taxes and army?
Avira > Rav shach said in the 80s that this psak no longer applies. Under Menachem begin, things were different.
Note that Rav Schach advised against an agreement between Haredi politicians and Begin to have fully gov-funded haredi schools in order not to lose ability to maintain private support.
We had before Presidents that fit Achashverosh role, but Biden fits the best. Declaring his kesher to Mordechai and then giving his stamp of approval to Haman in all languages of UN.
Hakatan, you can disassociate from groups you don’t like, it is fine by me. But then you need to make sure that you live an honest life without taking more than you are giving, whether you are in EY or in Stamford Hill. If you don’t want to rely on idf, negotiate with the government to move to an area adjacent to the border and organize your own self defense, either train fully chareidi militia, or pay Wagner group, or daven. Same for financial support. If you push for such resolution politically, you may not get immediate agreement from most ardent Zs, but you will get a lot more support and respect from regular Israelis.
> Satmar isn’t responsible for every idiot who quotes them wrongfully
We have concepts of being responsible for creating wrong impressions
@yankel, you mentioned menorah against haskala, I am just saying that not everything that was appearing at the time was wrong. It is possible that immediate reaction to close the gates of the ghetto, yes helped to keep many inside, but also left others permanently outside. We are somewhat better now Dealing with modern world, and both haskalists and traditionalists made imperfect decisions at the time. Not blaming anyone, it was an unprecedented challenge.
Yankel, right, I refer to that conversation. I am just exploring what this implies. I don’t think Rambam demanded Army protection in the desert, but expected to fend for yourself.
Chaim, I do understand that there are cases of unfair prosecution and other injustices. I am just suspicious when a member of a certain group considers most prosecution of his group unfair. What are the chances that every black arrested by police is innocent? same for the Jews …
This attitude is just creating a license for the group to misbehave further. If we could stay away from helping illegals getting fake documents; keep one set of books; do not commit wire fraud and use welfare programs beyond the bare minimum, those anti-semite will have a hard time building a case against us, right?
Participant (and we all are), I think I responded to someone else. I see a problem with your argument that you talk like a consumer: those in power owe you a justification for you to agree to something. Think like a free religious person about your obligation to Hashem and other Yidden. Someone (a person or a community) who lives together with others needs to participate in the society. If you think Army is not doing something right, vote and raise your own officers and push your policies. Sometimes, in a democracy, you have to even accept a decision that you think is wrong.
“Yeshiva as a Maimonidean desert” that Chazon Ish created is not a correct analogy. Living in a desert presumes you take care of yourself, not erquesting others to send an army to protect your oasis.
All sides of this discussion of the conditions in EY omit the question – about all Yidden who found refuge there from Russian and Turkish Empires, then Russian revolution, then Stalin, then Nazis, then commies in Eastern Europe, then from Arab revolutions and mullahs and terrorists. Imagine Jews in Aleppo staying there until ISIS arrived … It is not just about 100 people who could beg the locals to put chairs near the kosel.
Answering that they could have gone to USA, British Empire, South Africa & America does not fully answer – not everyone was able to travel there, and many rapidly assimilated. Those who came to EY even under most hardened commies, had Jewish grandchildren, who still have a chance to do teshuva. And many Rabonim did not recommend going to the golden medina either.
smerel, I am talking about 1920-30s specifically. I’ve read a very detailed thesis on the topic some years ago and it sounded convincing. Sochnut centralized funds provided by private donors and directed them to agriculture rather than cities as original donors preferred. Manufacturing in cities was able to provide a living and an economically viable community. Agriculture was losing money, so more and more funds were required to support them.
German Jews in particular were reluctant to come during early nazi years, leaving their parnosa behind.
Yidden who moved from Europe to EY pre ww2 escaped commies and nazis. Did old yishuv have a plan to absorb all these people without zionim? Did they have funds to feed them or to create jobs for them?
Zionim were at fault diverting funds from donors from tel Aviv manufacturing to kibbutzim. Manufacturing was able to support more jobs in tel Aviv and would enable more German jews to come. Kibbutzim were ideological goal but didn’t create enough productive jobs, limiting lives saved.