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AAQ – yeshiva styles change quite often; in europe, only rosh yeshivos were known to wear black and white; bochurim wore lighter colored suits, and either caps or hats of various colors, all lf course conservative by today’s wacky standards. They also changed from noticeable, distinct clothing of a yeshiva man because the mussar movement held that raising up the esteem of the yeshiva bochurim in an environment that was hostile to Torah was more important. The havdala from goyim would be acheived by immersing one’s self totally in Torah and mussar, while keeping away from goyim on a practical level as well.
Bochurim in Lita usually didn’t even speak Lithuanian; my grandfather only spoke Yiddish in his town and in yeshivos that he went to, which were ponevezh and grodno.
There’s a rambam (I’ve seen it quoted in the sefer ohr gedalyahu i just can’t seem to find it) that states that talmidei chachamim and their students wear hats, so this would be the source for the poskim who say that it is still preferable to wear a hat even if halacha doesn’t require it. Additionally, our culture’s lack of a value system might invalidate the premise of the above argument; many people would not be embarrassed to stand before the president in shorts and flip flops in our twisted society.
Re, yarmulkahs and working – yekkies didn’t used to wear them when they would work. The reason for this has been a point of contention, with some attributing it to anti semtism, and others to a lechatchila, but most acquiesced to rav moshe’s psak that nowadays one must wear a yarmulkah to show that he is an observant Jew, even according to the poskim who hold that it’s not normally a chiyuv. I have a relationship with a board member of KAJ who does not wear a yarmulkah, but puts it on inbetween customers! If I understood it correctly, rav breur seemed to hold that it was bedavka, to show a havdalah bein kodesh lechol.
Some sefardim seem to not have worn yarmulkas in the middle east, including Syria – I saw a teshuva once from rabbi kassin, the chief rabbi of the new york Syrian community, defending the practice. I don’t know how long this practice dates back to, or what the circumstances were thereof.
There are individuals who have received heterim for not wearing a yarmulkah, such as steven hill, an actor on a major television show who became a full baal teshuva. Such circumstances are very unique and require a psak; it’s not the sort of thing that can be decided by one’s self. As a general rule, however, rav moshe’s psak was almost entirely accepted, as it should be.
Yeshivish – anyone can get haskamos, especially grandchildren of gedolei yisroel(i had refrained from calling him by name because of the kovod of rav henkin) who put on hats and make themselves appealing to choshuve people. Haskomos usually say that they did not read the contents. If the contents of a sefer are not the result of serious study, then we are forced to reinterpret the haskama, not the sefer.
Rav Moshe gave haskomos to a lot of people he didn’t agree with, but the wording was very revealing. I recall a mizrachi guy who wrote a sefer on rashi, and rav moshe refers to him as Mr in the haskama and writes very pareve things about him – fitting who he was.
As for bizui talmidei chachamim, if you notice, I am careful about how I speak about rabbi shechter, rabbi willig and moreso rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik. That doesn’t mean they are immune to criticism and that they have acheived the status of people to whom we are to submit ourselves to as subjects of “lo sasur”. Nor does it mean that because someone is a gavra in learning that his opinioks suddenly become daas torah when the Torah community has ignored or disavowed them. Shlomo carlebach was a serious talmid chochom at one point in his life; it doesn’t mean what he did was ok, and he admitted that himself. Rabbi yoshe ber likewise wrote in 5 drashos that MO is not going to reach great heights (he was a brisker after all) but is necessary to save Judaism, and that the yeshiva world wouldn’t last….of course Judaism is alive and well in the Torah world, and is a flickering candle in MO – puk chazi!
Bemakom chilul hashem ain cholkin kovod le’rav – it’s not a “kulah” as in kulos and chumros, to point out the spiritual bankruptcy of a divergent movement, whatever individuals are involved and however knowledgeable they are in Torah. If one day, my rebbe rav Belsky would have chas veshalom gotten up and said to ordain women – ad kan; there’s no emunas chachamim when a chacham changes the Torah or violates it.
Yochanan kohen gadol ended up becoming a tzeduka after being kohen gadol for 80 years! It’s possible.
As for being mevatel an asei with techeles….we haven’t had it for 1500 years, and we pasken that ain techeles maakeves es halavan; we don’t consider the baal hamaor’s shita of it being hotzaah in reshus horabim either…the brisker rov may have been choshesh, but he didn’t go travelling the world trying to find techeles either – he had more important things to do. Certainly then, when a house is on fire, you don’t run to save the plastic cups…MO is awash in sin, not “kulos”, plain old aveiros, some willfully, some because of ignorance, but malei avvon either way – MO leaders should save what’s important, and not pretend that nothing’s wrong.
Tiawd – i agree; that’s a very good way to put it
Syag, sorry but the 2nd condition you mentioned – that he be interested – is not among the halachos pf tochacha; it says to do so even if he screams at you “ad hacaah” until he hits you.
Regarding being qualified, you are correct – it’s also to be done without onaas devorim, “lo sisa alav chait” means don’t bear a sin because of him, that he is doing and that you could have stopped, snd don’t bear a sin yourself because of him i.e. the way you’re treating him.
Hakatan – they reason that in the goyishe world, it is no longer the standard to wear hats in front of choshuve people. According to many poskim, this may have some merit and one cannot say that they are violating halacha – but those that allow it, including the tzitz eliezer, recommend wearing it as that is the way of bnei torah. There is a discussion if it is better to wear a hat and miss a minyan or daven with a minyan without a hat; rav chaim kanievsky quotes his father the steipler as saying the hat is preferable.
Avi – all is indeed known, Hashem knows the future and sees it happening, but Hashem gives us free choice; that’s the old contradiction and dropping one part of it because it lets you feel secure with an Uzi won’t solve the problem. It remains that nothing can happen to you without it being from Hashem – that’s the chovos halevavos in shaar bitachon, the nefesh hachaim and virtuall every machshava sefer ever. We have a mesorah even that every minute thing that happens is hashgacha, even though there is seemingly a shitah that says that small things might not be – the seforim explain that rishon to mean that it’s relative…we don’t see the hashgocha in the small things, so le’umasaeynu it’s as if it isn’t there.
For a very good explanation of the ohr hachaim and this topic in gener, see rav chaim friedlander’s sifsei chaim; the ohr hachaim doesn’t mean that you xan6chNge6a gezera from shomayim…he means that with bechira, you can be meorer dinim on a person and they can be judged in shomayim more severely than not – it’s like when someone is in a tzara lr be’idna dirischa, things happen that otherwise wouldn’t, but “hakol tzafui veha’reshus nesunah” is axiomatic. When paroh said to Hashem “why are you blaming me? You decreed that bnei yisroel should suffer” Hashem answered “who asked you to be the shliach?”. Wicked people end up being the shluchim for bad things and good people the shluchim for good things.
Rabbi Soloveitchik fits into category B as mentioned above; those who believe Hashem caused the holocaust but eschew giving reasons. This opinion was very popular after the war, and still is among balebstishe people. It’s not treif, it’s just putting your head in the sand in my opinion. Also, many rabbis after the war did not want to offend survivors – this has a basis in chazal, as the gemara says it’s onaas devorim to tell someone that you’re suffering because of your sins. Rav avigdor miller, and the gedolei olam such as Rav Shach had no problem saying repeatedly that it was a punishment, but others did shy away from it, so that is worth mentioning.
I have no idea what’s holding back the geulah; i am a simple jew who is upset at simple violations of Torah, and if the only answers I get are “eww, you’re taliban” or other insults, then it further proves my point. Even if the taliban happened to be correct about something, does that mean it’s automatically false?
I’ll admit my response is emotional; but it’s based on facts; your response is emotional and based on feelings alone, in an attempt to deflect legitimate criticism when we were invited.to levy it, you dismiss all of it by a wave of a hand – if you’re not ready for a serious conversation, then don’t engage, but don’t try to bring a discussion of logic and reason down to an ad hominem level.
GH – there it is….i was waiting for someone to just dismiss all criticism of MO as being Taliban/fanatical zealots…. you extremists with your tanach and shulchan aruch….you all belong in saudi Arabia!
It’s that exact attitude that’s endemic in MO, where if you simply want to keep normative halacha and hashkofa, you’re compared to the taliban.
Do you think that the yeshiva world, even in its most right wing element “locks women up” to have babies and cook? If you think that, you’d do yourself well to stop watching Netflix and reading false blogs and actually spend time in Lakewood, monsey etc
Even if someone will come and say that they have been inspired to teshuva, somehow, by selichos concerts, there are limits; ths Torah isn’t hefker, and playing instruments while we bemoan out state of distance from Hashem in sinfulness, simply shows that the people involved do not even know the translation of what they’re saying.
Inspiration is important, but temporary…ask these same people how the coming year was, or even how their yom kippur was…if they’re being honest, they’ll probably say they had their typical boring yom kippur and fell asleep during davening.
A great cause of boredom and the feeling of a need to innovate comes from simply not knowing what they’re saying when they’re forced since childhood to sit in shul and spout random Hebrew words that are difficult to read because they’re not in the everyday siddur, which they also find boring because no one ever bothered to teach them what they are actually saying.
Ubiq – if anyone’s hocking a kup, it’s people who come with reform-esque innovation and then get upset at people who dislike mesorah being trampled on
From rabbi willig – courtesy of the commentator:
“the inclusion of Talmud in curricula for all women in Modern Orthodox schools needs to be reevaluated. While the gedolim of the twentieth century saw Torah study to be a way to keep women close to our mesorah, an egalitarian attitude has colored some women’s study of Talmud and led them to embrace and advocate egalitarian ideas and practices which are unacceptable to those very gedolim.”
“We must obey all of Hashem’s laws, especially those that others trample upon,” Rabbi Willig wrote. He writes that one of the sources of rampant transgressions among many in the Modern Orthodox community is due to blurred lines in gender roles as they concern religious practice. He talks about how many may not like the message that he is spreading, and that issues such as gender equality may lead to a “schism” among Orthodox Judaism.
“This phenomenon (feminism within orthodoxy) may lead to a schism within Orthodoxy.Rabbi willig acknowledges that there is widespread sinfulness in MO on a communal level, why can’t the rest of you?
According to him, perhaps if MO schools would have followed the halacha and not taught gemara, we wouldn’t be in this situation now.
Compare that to president richard joel of YU :
President Richard Joel said, “there’s no limit to what women can do and learn. This is a university that honors thought, even when there is profound disagreement about that thought. Universities should be safe spaces where its scholars and faculty can express themselves civilly and be free to disagree. Yeshiva University has to honor that, even as it says clearly that statements of faculty, whether religious or secular, are statements of their own, and in no way represent the policies of the university. The president speaks for the University. Within halacha, there should be no limits to what women can learn and achieve.”
….haskalah through and through. He thinks he knows halacha tok, that halacha never limits what one can learn….he would do well to actually learn somr halacha. He would say the same thing about learning apikorsus, since you can’t limit what one can learn and think….this is the PRESIDENT of your institution!!! Wake up!
“Mainstream” MO means different things to you and I. To you, it’s basically rabbi shechter and rabbi willig. To me, it’s the 95% of barely frum people who call themselves such and the 90% of RCA rabbis who have fallen prey to many of the taanos I mentioned.
2. In what context would Rabbi Lamm call anyone a caveman?
—–He referred to the yeshiva world as cavemen; he knew exactly what he was saying. He felt enlightened and smarter than jews who only learn Torah and didn’t go to college. He also called conservatism “valid”, then backpedalled and gave a whole shiur on the philosophical meaning of valid…he knew what he was saying.
3. Equating is very different than comparing.
——Many MO rabbis, including norman lamm, have said this. Equating the two was a step above the maskilim who loved secular wisdom more than Torah. So the quasi maskilim in YU, including dr belkin and Bernard revel, said simply that they’re equal. What goes on in gush in their reckless “parshanut” is also haskalah-oriented. To their credit, rabbi willig and rabbi shechter do not seem at all to be using academic, haskalah methods in theit torah studies and psak, aside from using nationalism to justify deaths on the part of the latter. As an aside, I don’t see why people who continuously say that rabbis are not infallible and that you can argue with them suddenly run to defend one of theirs from criticism. Is it only ok to accuse, chas veshalom, the brisker rov of having OCD and dismissing some of his psakim(as heard from an MO rabbi) but not ok to say that rabbi shechtets personal nationalism influenced him to err in halacha?
4. “This is not mainstream either. Just to be clear, someone following a Kula because they were taught to follow a Kula is unlikely to know it’s a Kula, just like if one were to be raised in a world of Chumra, one could easily confuse Chumra and the standard Halacha. It’s quite difficult to run headlong into a Kula if you’re unaware it’s a Kula. And if it’s a Kula, although it may not be ideal, it doesn’t make it wrong, the same way that other people rely on Kulos. In terms of Chumros regarding Ticheiles, that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. Certainly a majority of the Modern Orthodox world does not agree with Rav Schachter (as @DBS can tell you, Rav Willig is very vocally opposed). ”
——If you want to see MO style “psak”, read shu”t bnei bonim. He’s a gush type posek; unfortunately he lost relatives in a terror attack a few years back. The whole sefer is him picking out a random maikil shita and making it viable in the face of overwhelming opposition.
I was not referring to rabbi shechter’s kashrus psakim. He follows standard halachik jurisprudence. After Rav belsky’s petirah, I still eat OU for the most part. Most of my diatribe doesn’t apply to him. Re techeles – my point is that senior rabbis such as rabbi shechter spend undue time pressing techeles and avoid the 3 chamuros that his constituents are invovled in routinely and communally.
5. “Regarding feminism, I don’t think that is mainstream either. The MO world is opposed to female rabbis (as @DBS could tell you, Rabbi Willig is very VERY vocally opposed to this [it’s practically in his backyard! {he lives in Riverdale}]). If they weren’t, they would jump ship to the OO. In terms of the latter part of this one, please define your terms: What do you define as meta-halacha?”
——–Feminism has many forms, but firstly there are a lot…i mean, a LOT of RCA rabbis who want to ordain women, the “bnei bonim” guy included. The fact that they’re held back by prominent figures such as rav gedalya dov schwartz, rabbi shechter and rabbi willig, is changing. Just read “the commentator” to see what MO youth and future rabbis want. What’s considered OO now will be mainstream MO within 10 years, and people like you, who seem relatively level-headed, will find a home in a place like Ner Yisroel or other college-friendly yeshivos kedoshos. The very fact that while in the yeshiva world, no rabbid would think of such a thing, and in the MO world, senior rabbis need to reign in the younger ones and come out with proclamations… speaks volumes.
As to other forms of feminism; it’s being taught in high school, stern college…the ideals of careerism, dismissal of gender roles as outdated, believing that women are better now than they were in Europe when their life consisted of piety and family duties, as well as the “we can do it too” of learning gemara…the growing movement to do things like wear tefilin, cast off head coverings because they’re “oppressive”, rethink chazal as chas veshalom being a “male perspective”…all this is discussed in YU and common place in MO circles. The development of “yoatzot” in the spirit of “by women for women”, all of this and plenty more are mainstream.
Meta halacha is letting other considerations besides what people need for legitimate tzrochim and the crucible of halacha to weigh in on how a psak should be made. Examples of which would be the psak of one MO rabbi that abortions are ok for a woman to be able to put herself through college
6. As mentioned in point 3, comparing is very different than equating. But now we’re talking about applying. If one subscribes to the belief that Torah is the guidebook HKBH gave us to lead life, of course this book is going to have something to say on everything, and if something isn’t clear, then it is the believer’s Achrayus to try to figure out what the Torah viewpoint is. Once again, Machlokes in this context is okay, but not hatred against a person based on the viewpoint he/she subscribes to. So “adding” self-determinism or emphasis on leisure to the Torah doesn’t really make sense, as the Torah already has something to say about it. It’s just a matter of figuring out what and why. Regarding allowing secular concepts to influence Halachic decision making, they don’t. Feminism will never change Halacha. Ever. Neither will Self-determinism, or any other “secular” concept. You can ask @DBS to clarify Rav Willig’s view on this as well: he is unequivocally opposed to postmodernism and all it’s philosophical ideas, for the stated reason that post modernism does not believe in objective reality, whereas Judaism does. For example, the Torah was given to Moshe Rabeinu on Har Sinai by HKBH. Period. Full stop. That is the end of the story, no debate neccesary; no saying “oh, only some of it was given at Sinai”, or “nah, HKBH didn’t really mean to Aser x or y thing”.
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What I’m referring to is, for example, an MO rabbi bending over backwards to allow for the sake of vacation, dubious kashrus, lack of minyan, or going to Hawaii where there’s s safek chilul shabbos. Or allowing movies, secular books and music because “people need to relax”, even though they are forbidden by at least 2 mitzvos asei, 2 lo saaseh, and several divrei kabalah… easiest of which are al tifnu, lo sasuru, ahavas hashem, moshav leitzim and others mentioned in shulchan arcuh OC 317( i think… it’s the siman where he talks about daber davar issues)
—-7. I don’t think this is true either. When I first read George Orwell’s 1984 in 10th grade, I didn’t even know that there were inappropriate scenes in the book, as the school had forbidden them from being taught. Any TV show or movie that I wanted to watch had to be cleared with my parents first. AS mentioned above in no. 1, Rabeim try incredibly hard to wean their Talmidim off of their phones and to have filters installed on them. And yes, it is irresponsible of parents anywhere in any community to not filter their children’s devices. There are indeed standards. They may be lower than in other communities, but they do exist.
—–Allowing parents to decide what movies are “kosher” is worse than allowing people to decide what food is kosher just by reading thr ingredients. Are parents experts in what the Torah demands for standards of kedushah? Do you realize what one inappropriate joke or discussion in a movie does to a child(or adult)?
The yeshivos banned TV and movies because the gedolei yisroel understood how harmful they are. One who watches a movie is in a passive, enjoyment mode; he is taking in the entire goyishe world and the perspective of whichever goy he is allowing to direct his thoughts… it’s in that way that movies are far worse than books.8. Regarding the beginning: Darkei Shalom. If Jews did not stand up for Black people if they are oppressed, how can we expect them to stand up for us if we’re oppressed? And how can we expect government officials to not percieve us as being incredibly selfish if we show we do not care? Regarding the second part, about driving hybrids: If that’s how a person decides to do their Hishtadlus, all power (lol) to them. That doesn’t mean they deny HKBH is in the driver’s seat (lol again)
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We don’t expect them to stand up for us – because they don’t. Their leaders have been among the worst anti semites, including Al sharpton, jesse Jackson, and Louis Farrakhan. Rav yaakov kamenetzky famously said that alligning ourselves with their cause was a big mistake, because zey villen arois nemmen der klalah fun bnei cham; he said this in camp ohr shraga in front of hundreds.
There is a certain measure of hishtadlus involved in mitigating anti semitism; that crosses the line though, when we equate others’ suffering to our own and think that the racism itself is the cause. Re, climate change – we believe firmly that Hashem will cause suffering and catastrophe because He decrees so, be it as a punishment or whatever else. To think that we are destroying the world in any other way besides our sinfulness is bordering on kefirah. Imagine if before the mabul, goyim would say that the flood is coming because of cow’s flatulence. Then Noach would have all his cows and tell people the truth while building his teyva
Should he get rid of his cows so as not to look irresponsible in the eyes of the idiots and kofrim?
—-9. The minchas chinuch,( ill look it up imyh where) says that goyim are Chayav misa for not enacting proper courts to carry lut the other 6. The 7 mitzvos, which include homosexuality, are not chukim..the rishonim say that they are all understandable and goyim who did not receive a Torah are expected to believe in a God who demands these rational minimum requirements. Goyim are obligated to enact a beis din to carry out the other 6 laws, and since they’re all capital offenses, they must enforce a death penalty on any of them. I don’t think your drush has any relevance here; Hashem brought the mabul becsuse of goyim writing kesubos from men to other men; it’s something very simple, and the fact that MO circles even discuss the possibility of goyim allowing same sex marriage is appalling. Leskaen olam bemalchus shakai, our job is to create the world in the kingship of Hashem by having his will manifested and enforced.
A lot of people shouldn’t consider themselves orthodox; but they do. there are entire orthodox LGBT and feminist organizations.
——10. I don’t know about admiration as much as Hakaras HaTov or learning lessons from them. Take Moshe Dayan, for example. A Menuval? Yes, but Jewry owes him a great debt of gratitude: if not for him, we would not have access to Mearas HaMachpeila, the Kosel, Har HaBayis, etc. In terms of learning lessons: try Steven Covey. A Goy gamur? Yeah, but a Yashar person, who tries to lead his life in an ethical manner (one of my Rabeim called The Seven Habits “The Mesilas Yeshorim for Goyim”).
—Ever hear of an MO house in Israel with pictures of hertzl on the walll? I have. Ever hear the glowing praise heaped on golda Meir, while she said that she can take care of “the charedi problem” “in one day with the army” (yes she did say that)? MO has a loving protrail of zionist leaders and before the State, we had access to the kosel…and you know what? There was no problem of Women of the wall, or reform trying to disgrace its hallowed place with their filth.
MO revels in stories of shimon Perez and others as some sort of friend, they’re called “heros” and their books are available in jewish book stores.
——–11. See above, 6. It’s not adding, but rather applying. Judaism attributes value to the feminine, but what is the Torah’s view on how that effects how we think about women in the modern age?
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The Torah should be the sole source of how we view anything, including women. Rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik famously said that the way chazal talk about female psychology, tav lemaysav tan du etc…is a metaphysical reality and a constant. I wish MO would follow the person they call their leader, but sadly most do not. Mostl think that today’s women are different and enlightened. They can learn gemara because they’re so much more educated and smarter, etc..
—-12. See whoever-said-it’s comment about the difference between the state and the land. The state bears supporting because it protects Jewish lives. If not for the state/army, millions of Jews would be fair game to Arabs.
—-It wouldn’t need to save jewish lives if it wasn’t made to begin with. A better solution would be to let the USA take over as a territory; it would serve america’s foreign policy interests, and they would protect the jews living there and not perpetuate the chilul hashem that the state creates every day
Damoshe – gemara, rif, rambam, rosh, tur, beis yosef, shu”a, nosei keilim say it’s assur. Some achronim say that individual women who are on a high level are allowed to. It’s a very, very simple straight forward sugya. Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva where he says that he shouldn’t have to even write such a teshuva because you can’t get much simpler.
I looked up the article – he quotes not a single source that says that learning gemara is permitted. Not one. He starts out by quoting the same sources that I mentioned, and a few more, snd says “it seems that it’s assur”, then continues to explain the bais yaakov movement and the chidush of the chofetz chaim that learning torah nowadays is allowed because the alternative is going off the derech, and that the Jewish home no longer provides adequate Jewish education for women.
He omits in his quote the rambam’s very, very crystal clear distinction between torah shebichsav and Torah she baal peh. The rambam says that the former is bedieved and the latter is assur gamur.
Jachter continues to then deflect and hint out that only the satmar rov qualified the chofetz chaims heter to apply only to tanach and halacha. That is an insidious tactic – first ignore the rambam’s distinction, and then attribute it to the satmar rov and therefore dismiss it because “that’s just satmar”
His other sources are just rabbi yoshe ber’s grandson trying to justify what his grandfather did with attempts at avoiding the clear halacha
He mentions what I said about exceptional women, and he says that some say that a woman may learn gemara on her own – that might be true according to some, since the gemara speaks of teaching, not learning. The rambam however would not hold of it.
This was very helpful for me, it shows the lengths of intellectual dishonesty that has free reign.
You make it sound like he’s saying, well, some rishonim and achronim hold it’s ok, and some hold it’s assur, so we’ll just pasken like those”
All he said was that the controversial rov associated with MO did it, and so did his brother and grandson…. shkoyach.
When it comes to things like pareve secular culture, there is an argument for demystification; that small doses will prevent the development of a desire to have it – but that would be limited to children’s books, dr seuss for instance….but that category is becoming more and more closed off, as modern day writers are bent on explosing children to toe’vah. I don’t particularly agree with that approach in the first place, but I understand those that do – rav hirsch advocated it directly and explicitly for that reasn in his time. He spoke only of secular literature; not vocalized music and definitely not interaction between genders.
Philosopher – thanks; I’ve never heard of that before…there is a gemara about wearing an “even tekuma” for that purpose, though I don’t know how or if it’s applied nowadays
I’ll repond to rebdovid first, as he started the thread.
I too, was in a boy’s only school, and the rebbeim as well tried to teach us a little bit – guess how many listened and didn’t make fun of how “extreme” the rabbis are? Almost none; actually, just one – me, even though at first I was counted in that number as well. The MO home and the TV culture (nowadays it’s the smartphone and social media) taught us how to think and behave. What was normal on TV was normal to us.
Every one of the boys in that school was in contact with girls; no exceptions. Every one of them watched R rated movies and worse, sometimes behind their parents’ back…when you open the door to the yatzer hora, he kicks it down. In a co-ed school, imagine telling teenage boys not to look at the girls. You’re putting the michshol right in front of them and saying the equivalent of “don’t think about a pink elephant”, but magnifying it by a ten fold with raging hormones and daily availability.
Just how many “more religious” children were damaged by their daily exposure to members of the opposite gender to justify a kiruv project? I’m not a chabad chossid, far from it, but if you want to see school-kiruv in action, look at their mahalach – they put a few non-frum students in with a (gender separate) group of frum kids, the frei get shlepped along with the majority. The ratio is about 1:10 I believe. Either way, we don’t sacrifice our own children for kiruv.
Would you give your children experimental anti-cancet drugs that they don’t need, if there were a chance of them being fatal, in order to help other kids who need the drug?
Aside from what everyone knows goes on in hallways and stairwells, whatever rules a school makes against intergender relationships, do you really expect pubescent students to simply not follow their hormones when exposed daily to available and willing stimuli? It’s preposterous. The reason why we keep away from contact with members of the opposite gender (henceforth MOTOG) is because more exposure equals more of a yatzer hora. What we see and hear everyday influences us.
Most MO schools separate genders for limudei kodesh, but there is still quite a lot of mixing elsewhere, as well as in extra curricular activities. Is it a surprise then, when relationships or casual aveiros develop?
Many MO believe in this as a shitah, that it’s better to be exposed and remove the mystery, and that even sinning is natural and unavoidable anyway. They liken it to drinking alcohol. They say, “are you that weak that you can’t even be around women and not have hirhurim?” That is completely against how chazal view the yatzer hora – “yisrachek odom es atzmo meod meod meod (3 meods!) Min hanashim”…be very,. Very, very distant from women. Does that mean we can’t work with women? No, because poskim say that you could, since you’re too busy working to have hirhurim.
Teenage boys are too busy being teenage boys NOT to sin if they are with girls.
The difference lf course, is that alcohol is not assur and social interaction with women is. That’s not a “chumra”. Shulchan aruch, from gemara, is clear that even asking “how are you” is assur gamur. I asked rav belsky once if maybe “how are you” nowadays has no intention of “kiruv daas” and is no different than the permitted “good morning”, he answered that there is still a difference and that one should not say “how are you”. Granted that may not be the accepted standard even in the Yeshiva world, as many rebbetzins have addressed me so, but to socialize and have full kiruv hadaas is definitely assur.
It seems that you’re “right wing” MO and that you’re consistently quoting rabbi willig, who is on the far right of the MO world. Indeed the differences between that minority and the yeshiva world are far less than I’ve described. He influences people who are interested in learning and who have inspired themselves to transcend the world they come from, but the MO world is still pretty much the same as it would be without him and rabbi shechter. Unfortunately, they have not accomplished much in changing MO or even YU, as YU has grown increasingly polarized between the handful of people who take yiddishkeit seriously and the rest who are barely religious. Growing up I had heard of rabbi shechter and heard him speak a couple of times, but he had zero influence on me and my family.
If everyone in MO were like him and rabbi willig, the taanos list I wrote would be much shorter.
Damoshe – women learning gemara individually is sanctioned by the prisha, but only exceptional women, as they are not motzi divrei torah ledivrei havai. Sara schnirer was as exceptional as one can be; that has no bearing on the uncontested halacha prohibiting the teaching of gemara to women.
“Among the newly announced policies, the university plans to update its “diversity, inclusion and sensitivity training” to focus on “diverse student groups, including sexual orientation and gender identity.” Administrators will receive initial training in the coming semester, and one for faculty, staff and students will be developed. The Counseling Center will also ensure that its staff includes a clinician with “specific LGBTQ+ experience.” Additionally, a “warm line” will be created in the coming semester for YU students to discuss or report concerns about “non-inclusive” harassment or bullying.”
Official YU statements quoted by its student newspaper. Does this sound like a yeshiva, or a liberal leftist college?
There are mesoros for segulah/spiritual remedies for things; women have a mesorah in blei gissen, for instance. Does anyone have a mesorah for holding or wearing gems as a segulah? If not, why do it?
Energy healing is riddled with avodah zara, including hisgashmius haboreh – they believe that the “universal energy” is Hashem r”l, snd that it can be channelled, directed… it’s perforce not infinite.
My rebbe Rav Belsky once told me about a certain respected posek who allowed “practitioners” to literally ask the “kochos” for help in healing their patients prior to doing whatever it is they do. Rav belsky summarily referred to him as a “crackpot”. Unfortunately, the Yeshiva world is not free of avodah zara. Boruch Hashem, we have gedolei yisroel who have warned us for decades to steer clear of energy healing; only recently have some misguided people fallen for it.
I’m shocked at the matter-of-fact assertion that the refuos in chazal are based on folk wisdom; who besides maskilim has ever said that?…tosfos says that we don’t use them because nishtanu hateva; that’s the majority opinion of the rishonim if i remember correctly. Chazal had a mesorah for scientific knowledge.
My intention was never to insult any particular person – if you read my losts6, I have a very positive opinion of my high school english principal. I have a lot of good things to say about jews who may not be totally observant; that is not a contradiction to any of the taanos and issues of MO as an entity that I raised.
שקר שנאתי ואתעבה, תורתך אהבתי
I don’t think this only applies to gedolei hador – each and every one of us is capable of despising what Hashem hates and loving what He loves. We are not supposed to hide our heads in the sand while MO ideology degenerates and influences the Torah world. Neither are we to pretend that there are other, valid opinions about any of the issues I raised. It’s not hateful to say, for instance, that conservative judaism is not authentic. It would be hurtful to our cause to make a conservative Jewish person feel bad or offend them; but knowing right from wrong, emes from sheker, is a source of eternal perfection – it is, in rav avigdor miller’s lingo “true knowledge”, a palpable understanding of emes that accompanies a person into olam haba.
If you’ll notice, I omitted many differences between MO and the Yeshiva world. I omitted things that are not black and white, assur and mutar, including going to college, how one dresses, secular names, and other things that are common in MO. I was careful to mention only the things that relate to akiras hados, the uprooting of Torah and abrogation of halacha.
Shimon, my intention isn’t to insult people – looking inward, after reading what others have said about my writing style, I’ll admit that I write harshly, but I’m aiming at the ideas i see posted, not the people behind them.
Dbs – it’s great that you’re learning! Keep it up!
camp morasha is a co-ed camp; interactions between young people in a camp can undermine months of growth in yiddishkeit. I hope your part of the camp is totally separate.
Camp Agudah is a boy’s camp with two parts; regular camp and masmidim. Masmidim learn 3x a day, and the rest of the camp does not. Some boys need a bigger break from the intense work they put in the rest of the year; bitulo zuhi kiyumo.
As for rabbi willig’s answer to teaching girls gemara…. pirkei avos is mussar. It is like the agadetas that women have learned in tzena urena for hundreds of years.
Teaching it is not the same as teaching gemara and halacha, and I’m surprised that rabbi willig said this; it’s not “situational”, it’s a simple distinction. The chofetz chaim allowed teaching tanach and halacha; tanach is a b”dieved but allowed, and halacha is necessary.
“”Most of the issues in the MO community are the cause of ignorance, not malignant violations of Halacha; think of it as a Tinok SheNishba situation of sorts (Chas VeShalom, I am NOT calling the MO community Tinokos SheNishbeu). “”
You can’t have your cake and eat it too – are they woefully uneducated people (uneducated and miseducated by the MO system) and therefore blameless, or do they know better, having been properly educated by the MO system only to choose the wrong communal lifestyle?
Rebdovid did not just ask for questions; he asked for taanos, and that is what i responded to – I didn’t have questions because i was MO and know exactly how things are and what kind of spectrum there is. Let him try and answer my taanos, but to do that you’d have to either make believe that the 50ish bochurim/yungeleit in YU who are farkoifed on rabbi shechter represent the masses of MO(but there would still be plenty to criticize), or just “reexamine” the issues i discussed.
Gadol; no one’s doubting that there were and are ehrliche people in young israel shuls, be they mispalelim or rabonim. Many gedolim had YI shuls, and I’ll add Rav Pam to that list. Being active in political life and learning Torah is an Agudah value system; it has no bearing on MO or the miasma of secular culture that MO mixed-swims in.
2cents – take a survey in an MO shul and give multiple options – was the holocaust A) the result of unchecked racism, jews not having a country and military… but no merciful god would ever do such a thing, B) a gezerah from Hashem that we don’t understand, or C) the culmination of a hundred years of gedolim warning against assimilation, reform and defection from Torah.
In a MO shul, you’ll get 65% A, and 35% for B. In a baalebatish shul, you’ll get 90% for B and 10% for C, and in a yeshiva you’ll get 50/50 between B and C. I realize people will say that this is random and that I’m generalizing, but please, give it a try! I davened with these people, went to school with them… Puk chazi, go out and see!
Re, rabonim coming out of co ed schools – gedolim such as Rav avigdor miller, rav yitzchok sheiner, rav gifter and others went to public school. Actually, i think more roshei Yeshiva went to public school than MO.
Re, rav avigdor miller…to claim he has any relation to YU when he repeatedly bashed MO (he was one of my early influences…im insulted for his kovod) is ludicrous. His YI became a shul of mevakshei Hashem. He raised the mechitzah at night; many left but he didn’t care. He denounced an announcement that a kiddush was being made at a conservative temple, and said “we will not mention conservative temples in this shul”, many more left… He didn’t care. He also changed the name eventually to Bais yisroel of rugby when he moved.
Shimon; if someone were using an anonymous coffee room to glorify one’s self…. that’s a very tawdry glory, if it can be called such. I write here because I enjoy writing and I don’t have many other opportunities to do so. Anyways, as I’ve made clear elsewhere, I don’t know everything, and i don’t remember everything either, so thank you for looking it up – im pretty sure someone says what I said above, but it wasn’t the pri megadim.
Avi – you’re referring to physical characteristics of bnei eretz yisroel. Saying that people who live there are sickly reflects badly on the land, because different climates influence the health and vigor of their inhabitants. Saying that someone is – of his own choice – a mechalel shabbos, is not insulting the land at all, it’s insulting that person’s choice.
As to who is better, one who sacrifices their life for others (non-jewish heroism, and assur according to some poskim) or one who serves Hashem by keeping the mitzvos….well, if I put it that way, I think the answer is very clear. Also, their idea of “jew” is just like their idea of “arab”; they view themselves as a race and a country, so would you likewise say that an idol worshipping Hindu soldier sacrificing his life for his countrymen is also on a higher level than a regular shomer torah umitzvos Jew?
Could be that it’s a troll post, or it could be that he was not expecting the excoriation
I’ll give credit where it’s due, young Israel was and is extremely successful in holding the line and acting as a bulwark against conservative. Their policy of owning each shul and making a universal, mandatory, enforceable charter was very smart. I honestly don’t know where frum jewry would be without the work of young Israel throughout the years.
YI was not founded by modern orthodoxy, though most of its members and rabbis are such. That being said YI didn’t “produce” rabbonim – yeshivos did. They may have guided some young men and encouraged them to progress, but there is a limit if one’s entire Jewish experience is just young Israel.
Irving bunim was very close to Rav Aharon; he was a good man and Hashem rewarded his efforts by making young Israel a powerful force in the fight against conservative.
however the idea of sacrificing and ignoring flagrant violations of halacha in an effort to conserve…. Is not orthodox, it’s the very thing young Israel was set out to go against. True, emphasizing things like singing and socializing, kumsitzes, etc may not have been part of the European playbook, but they are not sacrifices.
Damoshe – are you aware of how many “mainstream” MO schoolchildren are involved with NCSY? Happens to be I may have named the wrong organization; I saw this website years ago, though if not NCSY it was definitely a mainstream MO organization. I have to be honest and admit when I’m unsure or unaware of something.
If you want to see what goes on in the heads ot YU students, read ,their student newspaper. Their editor a few years ago said that many in the orthodox world aren’t ready for articles written by a stern college student cataloging her premarital aveiros. They pulled the article after some of the rabbis in YU were upset. Emphasis on some. They routinely run anti-torah articles.
The fact that rabbi hershel shechtet and rabbi willig teach at YU has little bearing on the state of the MO community. By their own standards, they are not run by rabbinic authority – also, there are thousands of MO rabbis who are not rabbi shechter and rabbi willig. They are almost the only torah-dig people in the movement.
Let’s not forget that every divergent movement has had its better elements. Saul liberman was not as off compared to the rest of the JTS faculty; does that mean conservative judaism is now leas treif?
To illustrate the divide between rabbi shechter and the MO community…he routinely advocates for the wearing of techeles. He is telling TV and smartphone obsessed teenageers to wear techeles before giving up their girlfriends.
Not that he is without criticism. The fact that he tolerates the open violations of Torah in YU by remaining there is not justifiable. That includes the toeva club, teaching gemara to women, inviting apikorsim and anti-torah speakers like marc shapiro…and his “teshuva” where he says that losing jewish life is an acceptable loss to maintain the state of Israel, because the state is the lifeblood of the jewish nation… he bought into nationalism and used it halachikally to defend the loss of jewish life.
No, rabbi shechter, the source and lifeblood of jewish life is the Torah, and it will keep us no matter what.
To add to the list of problems: many, if not most MO people do not believe fully in Hashem running the world. They believe that the holocaust happened because of racism, hatred, etc, and do not acknowledge that it was Hashem who did it. They likewise blame the gedolim for not telling the European Jews to leave. The chazon ish, quoted in maaseh ish, famously said that people who blame the gedolim and say hallel on yom haatzmaut are apikorsim.
They believe they will stop another one from happening r”l by having a state and fighting racism against African Americans.
They ignore the fact that rommel was 2 days away from eretz yisroel. The same thing could have happened there, but the yidden davened and fasted, and were mevatel the gezerah. The Brisker Rov said that the yidden in Europe could have avoided the calamity if they had responded to the gezera the way the yidden in eretz yisroel did.
Also, the rambam deals with your question about how beis din used to (and still could) use force to make a man divorce when he is obligated to (emphasis on when he is obligated to….a woman saying she’s not happy is not an obligation) he says that since a jew wants to do the ratzon Hashem deep down, you’re really doing what he wants! This rambam is often called “the chasidishe rambam”, but it’s the way this halacha works.
Also, the opposition to prenuptial agreements is multi faceted. Middushin al tanai is discouraged by achronim(maybe even some rishonim) because there are a million….tanayim (pun!) Involved and different opinions as to how to make one work. Playing around with tanoim is a recipe for mamzerim.
The other reason is that including such things is to decide from the get-go that the marriage may be doomed.
Copying the practices of goyim in our marriages is not our way.
Coffee addict; Rav Belsky explained the following: on yom kippur we bring two se’irim. They look identical, one goes to azazel as a symbol of the aveiros of klal yisroel, it dies a violent death to show the results of sin, and the other is brought in the kodesh hakedoshim.
When yaakov and eisav brought their gifts to yitzchok, chazal say it was yom kippur. They brought two se’irim; when yaakov came in, the re’ach of gan eden filled the room. When eisav came in, the pischa shel gehinnom opened underneath him.
Yom kippur and the yomin noraim are times to discern truth from falsehood, to be mavchin and indeed to judge what we are doing. If that drives a wedge between people who are not Torah Jews and those of us who strive to be, then so be it. I can think of no better time to engage in the self improvement one achieves by casting off all foreign junk and tumah that defines MO.
I may not get to replying to each poster, but I’ll try.
As others pointed out, I was not implying that being honest is not important, or even necessarily less important in practice than preventing massive chilul Hashem and being concerned for the welfare of the society that we live in.
Nishtdayngesheft summed up my intention in that statement very clearly, though I disagree with him about center MO – iI didn’t grow up in Avi Weiss world; the problems I’m describing are endemic everywhere in MO, in varying degrees. Also, the reason there’s a lot more talk in chazal is because toe’va was extremely uncommon and even a taboo discussion for yidden for thousands of years…chazal aren’t going to talk about toe’va with behemos that much eithrr, because it’s an unthinkable very rare sin. Busines, stealing, cheating, is extremely common everywhere. It affects the day to day life of every Jew, so naturally there will be more talk of it. That doesn’t detract from the importance of understanding toe’va when society decides it’s perfectly fine and that it’s hateful to oppose it.
Gadolhadora – what exactly is hateful about exposing false Judaism? Do you consider it hateful to bash tax-evaders or slumlords who happen to be charedi?
Avi – this was 2007. No one knew that eventually children would be exposed to such things. No one predicted drag queen story hour. Even if they would, the way to prepare them would be to give shmuzzen about it, not to have them engage in developing their own opinion about something Hashem decided on before the world was created. Our own feelings and opinions about something basic in Torah really don’t matter. Also, the rules barred us from using Torah sources – it said so explicitly….even if they would have allowed it, there would have to be an opposing team from a jewish school that would have to argue against it. Would you want your children arguing a case for toe’va? Da ma lehashiv is important, and we get it from learning, not secularizing a Torah concept to teenagers and having them debate it from a socio-economic and humanistic perspective.
In my debate team experience, I encountered something else. One of my teammates was a young man from a traditional but not entirely frum bukharian background. We were debating the draft issue, and at one point, the opposite team had raised the topic of women in the army. My teammate said that women need to stay home with the kids. The opposite team said this was sexist, and went on and on about how women are perfectly capable to fight wars.
The judges approved. Where did this person get that idea from?
Re, mixed schools. There are cases where a mixed school is necessary to prevent a community from sending their kids to public school. Tell me, does it show how strong MO is if we say that all their community would send their kids to public school if we made gender-separate schools? Or does it further speak to their distance from Torah. Also, at this point, we’re talking 3rd, 4th generation of students. Their parents and grandparents went to MO schools…when do they graduate from “about to send their kids to public school”. Regarding money… come on, people always scream about how little charedim make and how well-off MO professionals are. If they cared they’d be able to afford it just fine. Rav Moshe allowed mixing until 6th grade for this reason, but seeing the way kids are today I highly doubt he would allow it past 4th grade…i think anyone who teaches that age would understand why I’m saying so.
The seridei aish was heading a kiruv program…hardly surprising, as the kids would have been mixed either way. The same goes for schools that are mixed to prevent public school.
Rav Breuer’s yeshiva system was and is totally separate. The yeshiva and the girls school happen to be amazing institutions, not as well known, but I’ve been impressed with every talmid I’ve seen go through the system.
Just having a small community is not justification for mixing – small kollel communities make a bais yaakov and a yeshiva and they get by.
Re, labels and judging – judging individual people is up to Hashem. Calling out community-wide failure to uphold basic Torah principles is within our responsibility, and should bother us. Is it possible that a MO individual will be on a higher level than me in shomayim? Definitely! That doesn’t matter much to me in practice.
Mindful – what open violations of torah law are acceptable to be done in the open in front of charedi rabbonim? Taking tzedaka to learn? Do you believe that until BY, women learned gemara and rishonim just like men? BY was the first institution for education at all for women, started by charedim with the backing of gedolim. Before that, women were largely iliterate for thousands of years. There were a handful of women who chose to learn more, and they weren’t silenced….they aren’t silenced now either.
In the time of chazal, rishonim, women almost never learned anything and the halacha was that lechatchila, women shouldn’t be taught even chumash inside the sefer. They had tzena urena and that was enough.Were you “deprived” of an education in that rambam? The same rambam says that when women learn chumash, they get rewarded but it’s better not to, and for gemara/mishnah, they’re simply not allowed to. Sometimes studying things is, *gasp* not allowed…
Add that to the list, MO decided to abrogate the halacha against teaching gemara to girls.
Whatever you’ve read online that “opened your eyes” from some hack MO or worse…tell me, what traditional source have you discovered that shows that charedim changed things to make women inferior?
Referring to women by their husbands name is not unprecedented; referring to them by their name is also not new… it’s found in gemara vis a vis choshuve women, but regular women were usually not named.
Not too long after the debate team episode, the following happened. I was davening at a MO shul most shabbosim, and things started bothering me. Why was the rabbi more concerned with people applauding his speech on shabbos (something many poskim allow, as it’s not musical…together with tosfos… it’s not a big kulah to be maikil), than with the crowded mixed mingling and hand shaking etc by his constituents during a “kidush” that was anything but kadosh? I had learned that if one merely looks at a woman for pleasure he is not cleansed by gehinnom…at this point i asked him, and i said I didn’t want to come to kiddush anymore.
He said he’s happy that I’m learning, but i should be wary of being extreme. I’m going through a phase. He’s a rabbi.
The clincher was during a shalosh seudos… this was when a bill had been proposed to legalize toeva marriage in NY (it was sadly passed in 2011…this happened several years prior). The rabbi said that chazal talk a lot more about honesty in business than they do this issue. Apparently preaching to the choir (MO people are very into business honesty) overrides the Torah’s most basic and fundamental obligation to fight evil and despise that which Hashem despises.
I got up in protest, I said “no, i will not hear minimizing capital offenses and abominations of Hashem”
bentched outside, and never returned to that sin-agogue.To illustrate, I was the founder and captain of my high school’s debate team. I was in a boys-only school, with mostly yeshivishe rebbeim, which catered to the MO world. My classmates were all MO, or not frum(the school was for kiruv as well). I doubt anyone here has heard of it. Anyways, my English principal was a person who sacrificed for Torah. She was modern, but was full of maasim tovim; she would give of her time, money, and resources to help at-risk teens and kids who wanted to become frum… she’d lay for their tickets to go to yeshiva in eretz yisroel, and many other things… May her neshoma have an aliyah.
I was a spirited 15 year old who loved debating; my jewish history teacher introduced me to a network of MO schools that had a debate league. We joined, and competed quite successfully, despite being a school that did not emphasize academic performance. We qualified for the semi finals in the season’s tournament….then we received word of what the topic would be.
Before this, the topics were all pareve. Should there be a draft, should the government subsidize health care, should foreign policy be geared towards nation building…. topics that were not hashkafically sensitive.
My principal and I saw the email at the same time. We looked at each other in disbelief. I believe she understood at that point what MO had become…the topic was polyamority. I had never heard of the term, but one need not be an etymologist to figure out what it meant.
We dropped out of the tournament. My principal and I wrote a fiery letter to the board, and the MO school that was hosting the event.
It was eye opening…the first of many experiences that made me realize that Torah Judaism is only to be found in the Yeshiva.
There always has been a “right wing” of MO that looks like baalabstish litvish, with zionism and small amounts of television nixed in.
My diatribe was aimed at the wider MO community, and to use modern expression, they are my “lived experience”, because I grew up inside modern orthodoxy myself. I was saved from a life kf fake judaism and rabid materialism masquerading as yiddishkeit in high school…there were many factors in my defection, including rav avigdor miller’s seforim, the old frumteens website, some patient neighbors and friends, and some of my rebbeim who saw an opening to dispel the thick haze of tumah I was living in.
1. Broken educational system which facilitates mixing of genders contrary to basic jewish standards of tznius and kedushah. Even in separate schools, downplaying of related halachos, including deoraysohs and abuzrayhu legilui arayos. MO children believe that having girlfriends is an acceptable standard, rachmana litzlan. MO sponsored “sex education” which prioritizes “safety” and “respecting choices” that teenagers make (this is from an NCSY website).
2. Demonization of the Torah world, castigation of us as “cavemen” to quote Norman lamm; then they turn around and accuse us of “sinat chinam” everytime we utter a word about the wanton sinfulness and abrogation of halacha that is commonplace in MO.
3. Acceptance of foreign philosophy, nationalism, humanism, existentialism, and “Knowledge lishma”, even sometimes equating Toras Hashem temima with secular studies.
4. Blind dash into whatever lenient opinions one can find in fundamental Torah ideas such as tznius. Perplexing stringency when it comes to particulars such as techeles and krias hatorah.
5. Incubation of feminism and inventing “meta halacha”.
6 Making secular concepts such as self determinisn and emphasis on lesiure a part of Judaism.. Letting number 3 influence their halachik decisions, if you can call them such.
7. Having zero standards as to what they allow into their heads – no book is forbidden, no website inappropriate… save for out and out “adult content”. Non Jewish music permeates their souls and makes them desire secular lifestyles.
8. Spiritual achievement secularized and made mostly applicable to civil rights, activism, kindness (to goyim as well), “environmentalism” based on a sole medrash that they wrench out of context… denying Hashem’s sole control over the world and thinking that we can “save” the planet by driving hybrids
9. Affirmation of to’eva and gender benders, to varying degrees depending on how modern. Almost none would advocate for the death penalty, even though it is prescribed in the 7 mitzvos of bnei noach.
10. Admiration of reshoim, both zionist and non-jewish.
11. Invention of new values of what’s evil… instead of what Hashem gives us in the Torah, the new evil is always racism, sexism, “homophobia” etc..
12. Undying loyalty to a secular anti religious “Jewish” state
13. Failure of educated MO rabbis to steer their people back on the derech
14. Institutionalized sinfulness…. abandonment of laws of tznius dress in favor of what “i feel is modest”. Widespread lack of knowledge of hilchos shabbos, MO rabbis pandering to women who do not want to cover their hair.
15. Inclusion of insincere converts who convert to marry high profile jewish men, and who have not been taught basic halacha
16. Dismissal of mussar and hashkofa as “extreme”
17. Desire to sacrifice parts of Torah “to save judaism”….from itself?
18. “Reexamination” of Torah ideas in light of modernist ethics. The akeida? Amalek? We must ignore chazal and search….find some way of making pegs fit into square holes.
19. Denial of rabbinic authority…”chicken shailoh Judaism”, as I call it…placing the authority of a rabbi in one’s life only in regards to shabbos and kashrus questions. Denying the place of rabbis as the “eynei haeidah”, the eyes of the population
.. Rashi says that klal yisroel doesn’t do anything without its leaders, yet MO pretends that Torah leadership never expanded past shabbos and kashrus….josephus, not a fan of the rabbis, said that the entire populace listens to their every word in politics…yet MO claims that daas torah is a new concept….suddenly when it’s something they don’t like, “new is bad”, the payos come out and they say we need to be wary of change! Yet feminism, evolution, climate activism, secular studies and everything else…. that’s fine.I teach MO children, though not in an MO setting, they are totally unaware of basic jewish practice. I’ve been asked matter of factly, “sheilos” regarding going to the movies with one’s sin-partner, i.e. girlfriend. Any Torah jewish teenagers who engage in illicit activity, at least are aware that they are going off the derech and as such, have a higher retention rate.
Very commonly, a teenager will repeatedly ask me if a mitzvah is obligatory…the assumption always is that it isn’t. Then, the common response is that they’re not interested, or…”what if someone chooses not to?”. MO education makes a very big deal out of choices… choosing to keep shabbos is great, choosing not to….well, you need to respect other’s choices.
This is abridged and written when I’m half asleep….I can write a book (and I plan on it someday) detailing the layers and levels of degeneration, deception, lies and Torah violations of modern orthodoxy.
They’ve robbed klal yisroel of Torah for far too long. It’s time we said enough.
Duvid… there’s nothing christian about saying that we are not god and that He has not divided himself into parts. Also, it’s the Arizal, bot the Tanya that uses the expression. And it’s “mamash mamash”, not just one mamash.
According to the way my rebbeim explained it to me, it’s not difficult – there is a piece of literal godliness within us, it is not a part of Hashem himself, but a holy spark from an infinite flame, so to speak.
Christian theology in its current incarnation among evangelicals is that god manifested as yushke and that everyone who believes in him has yushke and therefore god inside them. This is actually cery, scarily similar to how chabad views the last rebbe.
When a kabalah sefer says something that goes against the 13 ikkarim, we must say that we are misunderstanding the kabalah, which itself was never intended to be understood by the uninitiated. Many gedolim believe that the time has come to reveal kabalah – but they do not hold that one should let himself be hefker and read every sefer and come to whatever conclusion he wants. There needs to be a mesorah. Chabad broke that mesorah and are very independent in their learning of kabalah.
The only way you can severely disrupt Torah philosophy is through kabalah; that was the downfall of shabsai tzvi, frankel….lehavdil rabbi kook, all was made possible through reckless use of kabalah (and haskalah, in the latter’s case)
Shimon, it seems that you believe that pashut pshat in mitzvos are childish, and that drush and remez are “mature”, for the big boys….i don’t often say this, but that is a bizayon hatorah. Just because children learn something doesn’t mean it’s childish.
As for being yotzei yeshivas sukkah…this is a pri megadim explaining a bach, quoted in mishnah berurah; he says that when the Torah specifically gives a reason, kavanah is me’akev. That’s by tefilin (lemaan tehiyeh), tzitzis (lemaan tizkor) and by sukkah (lemaan yaydu). Some hold that the bach was saying like you, but the pri megadim holds it’s le’ikuva
Lit – that term doesn’t mean age… I don’t think you’re familiar with how’s it’s used.
Shimon, ki bechipazon isn’t the only reason given in the pesukim – and of course the Torah’s stated reasons for mitzvos aren’t the only reason for them. Those reasons, though, are real and essential to those mitzvos. If someone eats in a sukkah and does not have in mind lemaan yeydu dorosaychem, many hold that he is not yotzei even if you hold mitzvos ainan tzrichos kavanah, since the Torah explicitly said a kavanah to have.
It was asked where it says that we should love gerim because we were gerim, and…it says so twice, so obviously that’s a big deal. Are there other reasons? Sure, but we don’t ignore pashut pshat in pesukim.
Avi – here we go again. Criticizing the evil doing enemies of Hashem who live in Israel and elsewhere has nothing to with being from meraglim or slandering “the land”. I never said the fruits are not tasty, the air is too humid, the weather is too hot, or other land-specific issues. Actually, how many israel-loving zionists routinely complain about such things? That’s actually dibas haaretz and would put them in the category of meraglim, so to speak.
I cannot speak for every rabbi everywhere, but I believe if someone were to ask holocaust survivors if they have love for nazis or kapos….well, 40 years ago when they were strong enough, I think they’d make an impression on such a person’s nose that he wouldn’t soon forget. And I couldn’t blame them.
We don’t know clearly who’s at fault, but with the availability of Torah and the exposure that many have…. it’s questionable if the chazon ish would still hold that way today. What’s also clear is that anti religious people are our enemies and seek to undermine us. Chazal wouldn’t have been kovaya a bracha ledoros if there wouldn’t be such people in every generation.
Erbius – I’d like to know what those quotes are. Maybe there’s more to this than the gemara and rambam we’ve been discussing, but i doubt it. No one’s saying… again, that it’s not important and crucial to a marriage. So is trust. That’s not a halachik discussion though.
Also, regarding distinction, i was referring to a rambam about the ways of talmidei chachamim “and their students”, where he says that they are distinct. The rambam does not, to my knowledge, hold that it is a halacha to dress jewish, but many others do, and that has been the mesora in most jewish communities. The naharik in 88 is a famous source for this discussion, and he’s quoted by the rema in shu”a.
Koltuv, it isn’t hateful to expose deviant beliefs, regardless of who holds them. A great deal of lubavitcher chasidim believe things about tzadikim and especially their rebbe that are undeniably heresy. It really doesn’t matter if that person has a job with a mainstream publisher of Torah literature, though I hope he is not counted among those who attribute Divinity to a rebbe.
A common trick that MO and chabad utilize to stifle dissent and critique is the charge of sinas chinam, baseless hatred.
It’s the accusation itself that’s baseless.
Who knows how many times we need to remind people that the halacha, for the past 600 years, has NOT been like the rambam vis a vis tzedaka/learning. The radvaz on the rambam says torah would have been forgotten if we followed this rambam. Also, the Ran in nedarim says that the minhag in bavel was to get married tirst and then learn, because the women supported the husbands. The situation was different in EY because the women were weaker and unable to work that much.
Rav Moshe says it’s ARROGANCE to want to keep gadol haneheneh meyigaas kapo in our times.
It is indeed foolish to jump the gun and get married without any financial plan, be it your own work, your parents’, in laws, wife or whatever.
Anyways, where did you see that letter? If it were known to be directly from the chofetz chaims son in law, ill of course accept it but we’d simply have to see if this was before or after the soccer player incident. There could be a multitude of reasons why tzadikim do things, but we do know that rabbi kook went from being very esteemed to being erased trom history by the Torah world, and there were several steps and events that caused this. There was the soccer incident, the university speech where he said ki mitzion taytzay torah in a place where they teach api(courses) (one of my old original quips from my yeshiva days). Then there was the banning of oros mayofel, and the famous kol koreh from the rabbonim of yerushalayim. A lot of things happened in the middle and it was a tumultuous time in klal yisroel where communication and spread of news wasn’t very available.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if gedolim initially defended him, as he was one of the prized volozhiner talmidim. In those days the haskalah claimed a lot of casualties…my grandfather unfortunately was one of them. He was a promising talmid of rav shimon shkop but fell prey to zionism and haskalah in university; boruch hashem my family came back, but there are countless people who could have been but sadly weren’t.
In “hador vehatekufah”, a very prominent rosh yeshiva in Switzerland who is in his 90s writes that rabbi kook was known at a certain point as a “kayliker”, a person who went “Kal”, modernishe, and was forced to take up rabbonus in England because of that. Was this the way he was seen elsewhere? No. It takes time for people to figure it out and the Torah world took a good few years to see his shortcomings and to discern that his hashkafa was Hegel, not Judaism.
AAQ, who says minim must mean only those who try to undermine us? Also, the term zeidim means wanton sinners….”oivecha”, your enemies, includes people who are enemies of Hashem, whether or not they are political enemies of klal yisroel. Someone who is proud of their sinfulness is an enemy of Hashem, even if he’s fine with others’ keeping Torah.
Happens to be that the zionists DID try to undermine us, and to a much larger extent anf scope than the tzedukim and reform ever did. They literally redefined the word Jew. They tried to strip us of our entire religion; the reform were not as militant, nor did they claim that they represent all of jewry. Neither did the tzedukim.
When the zionists nearly succeeded in uprooting the jewish
family with gius bonos, when they kidnapped religious children, when they sold us out to nazis and kept communities in Hungary in the dark while they saved their own skins, when they made the world think that Israel equals Jew and that we are a nation because of a land and a made up language… that dwarfs all the sabotage of the tzedukim by a wide margin.That being said, I’m speaking mainly of rabbi kooks approval of their leadership – people who the chazon ish and everyone else would agree know better and are full fledged heretics. Even those who were raised to hate religion… that’s a machlokes. Avi is correct that the chazon ish considered them innocent tinokos shenishbu, but many others did not. Rav chaim brisker famously quipped “a nenach an apokores is oich an apikores”.
I do not have chilonim in mind when I say that bracha. I do, however, have in mind zionist leaders and other anti religious people who live in Israel, who seek to spread heresy and undermine Torah, whether or not they put fabric on their head.
That letter can’t be true, because we have eye witness testimony from several students that the chofetz chaim rebuked and mocked rabbi kook’s name when he saw the newspaper article regarding rabbi kook’s praise of chilul shabbos by the “holy” soccer players
Also, it’s false that Litvishe rabbonim don’t know kabalah. The Gaon was a tremendous source of post-arizal kabalah; probably the most prolific, too The zkan rosh yeshivos in America, Rav elya ber vachtfogel, is an open mekubal. As was rav elya weintraub… My rebbe rav Belsky wouldn’t talk about it much, but it was known that he was very into kabalah. The common saying is that the Litvishe show their nigleh and hide their nistar, while chassidim show their nistar and hide their nigleh.
The arizal famously writes that it’s *mamash mamash” but how is that understood? My rebbeim told me that it’s referring to godliness, that just as a flame is not diminished, decreased or divided by igniting something else, Hashem kavayachol made a tiny fire of godliness called a neshoma.
I cant say I have a mekor for this; these ideas are heavily dependent on having a rebbe and a mesorah.
The fact that chabad and others might use kabalah to go off the derech was predicted by the Gaon and the tzlach as one of their criticisms of chassidus. However, the chofetz chaim famously said that the Gaon’s opposition would, in his time, only be to chabad and (some say) breslov. All other chassidishe groups have become more down to earth.