AviraDeArah

Gadolha, the issue here is the motivation. Giving to goyim is not because of altruism or lishma, it’s because of the gemara quoted at the beginning of this thread, and nothing more. Chazal say that we do it exclusively because of darchei sholom. There is no greater example of darchei sholom than a wealthy yid who would normally give only to yidden, but that would cause a lack of sholom with goyim, so he gives to goyim as well. Word for word what the gemara says.

The problem is when we make it into a lishma. It’s the same as the issur of hashavas aveida. It is unequivocally assur to return a goys aveidah. The only time one must do so is to avoid chilul hashem, and one is allowed to do so – although not required – to create a kidush hashem. People who go around saying to treat goyim the same as yidden are violating the Torah in a profound way. Rashi explains that when one returns an aveidah to a goy, he is “mareh beatzmo” he shows about himself that he’s not concerned with doing mitzvos for hashem, because if he were he would only do it when it is a mitzvah. Since he’s doing it for anyone, it’s saying that he does not care about doing mitzvos for hashem.

That’s when Jewish people knew this basic truth, so giving to goyim used to be a clear indication that such a person was not interested in torah. Nowadays we’re so taken by pluralism and false equality that we think we are all the same and are all afforded the same privileges. To the point that if someone thinks of discerning yidden from goyim, he is the one who is thought to have violated a false “torah” of equality and fairness. Genevas daas, hashavas aveidah, taos akum, all are “unthinkable”, a travesty to Torah and hashem because it doesn’t comport with modern ideology.

Re; israel and harping – whatever the status of Israeli frei people are, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel past and present has given a hard time to the torah world. They have, whether in knowing evil intent or not, presented us with roadblocks, bias and anti torah culture. And yes, they have become the lightning rod of anti semitism.

You can think whatever you want, but i suggest reading some history books about how Jews got along with Arabs before Zionism. The Grand mufti of Jerusalem, once a friend to Jewish people, pushed hitler over the edge to carry out the final solution. A million or so sefardi jews were expelled from their homes just after the accursed state was declared.

If the truth and following the Torah makes the frei hate us, then so be it – that’s nothing new. The am haaratzim always hated the bnei torah; it’s all over chazal. I’m not going to change my service if hashem, and my fulfillment of halo misanecha hashem esneh uvmiskomemecha eskoteit. I will not mix in with them, dress like them, talk like them, fight in their znus army or speak their filthy language when not necessary.

Also, it’s clear that jews and arabs were far from friends. We lived under islamic law, which allows jews and lehavdil christians to live peacefully under arab government provided they pay taxes and do not missionize. There were waves of islamic extremism under certain caliphates, but compared to living under christian countries where we were expelled, robbed, killed and humiliated all the time, it was much more liveable.

Zionism flipped that on its head.

Avi; the toeva people are just as if not more militant in israel than they are in America, so that’s just flat wrong. America enshrines a religious tolerance that almost no other country has, for better or for worse.

How does israel not let us keep the torah?

– Kidnappings of thousands of yemeni children from religious families.
– almost successful in mandating autopsies
– forcing farmers to violate shmitah and kilayim(this was in the past and the frum ignored their decrees, like making grapefruit which the chazon ish assered)
– forced military service in an army dedicated to making Hebrew Nationals (you can look up ben gurions quote as to the purpose of the army being a “melting pot”( his exact words)
– forced gius banos, a fate that was deemed yehereg velo yaavor
– putting us in questionable situations such as having to decide whether or not it’s allowed to benefit from the mechalelei shabbos at the electric plants
– proliferation of treif food; most food in eretz yisroel is treif because of massive negligence in terumos and maasros
– when the swedish (Belgian?) Government wanted to and eventually did ban shechitah, their excuse was that the “leader of the Jews” netanyahu (the oichel nevelos mechalel shabbos and boel nidos that he is) ate non-kosher meat, so it must not be very important to you Jewish people.
– lack of equality in the job market; charedim are turned down for jobs because of the hatred taught by the government and the Zionists; discrimination is widespread across every sector, and is not cared about….if this were happening to toeva people, they definitely would win law suits for their “rights”
– proliferation of anti torah culture right in our midst; they put their nevala in our faces, and get the uneducated mizrachim to watch movies and be part of their filthy culture
– they force rebbeim to take mandatory government courses which include zionist apikorsus
– they keep is in constant worry over the arab enemies they made for themselves (see rabbi j.b. soloveitchik’s chamesh drashos where he admits this, though many in the religious zionist community harp on the chevron massacre, it is clear as day that it was incited by zionist activity and rhetoric rhat had been festering for decades prior)

Need some more? I’ve got PLENTY

My heart goes out to you, my beloved brother Ephraim; if not for yourself, stay because klal yisroel needs good people like you!

Lo sichanem applies to any goy, except an established ger toshav. Muslims and ethical monotheists don’t have the din of ovdei avodah zara, but they are not a halachik ger toshav either.

The halacha about honoring goyim who are old due to their having had a lot of life experience and undoubtedly seeing miracles of hashem in their lifetime, as explained by the rishonim, is just that… it’s an honorable thing to give honor to. That has zero bearing on giving gifts, tzedaka, favors or compliments. Lo sichanem applies to elderly goyim as well.

Mutar – Shevet halevi, chelek 7, 24, Halichos bas yisroel 4, 3

Avi, unitarians make up .3% of all christians in the USA. They are halachiklly a miuta dimiuta if even that much. The overwhelming majority believe in the trinity; the poskim say this is shituf. There sre deos yechidim that for goyim shituf is not assur, but for yidden it definitely is and we are forbidden to support it in any shape or form.

As for veterans vis a vis hakaras hatov; we don’t find a source in chazal as far as I know that interprets hakaras hatov that way. We have the gemara quoted above, which attributes tzedaka to nochrim as darchei sholom, but not an ends to itself, and as such if a person gives without the understanding that he is a frum jew, it will probably be assur the same way hashovas aveidah is assur; additionally it is a very serious issue of lo sichanem, giving free items to nochrim (or even compliments) is an issur/prohibition.

Hevei mispalel bead shlom malchus….daven for the welfare of the government, because if not for its fear, a man would swallow his fellow alive…pirkei avos

Without fear of punishment, there can be no society

Also, an imagined utopia where there is no violence even to animals….

Animals kill each other violently every day. The world is not the way it was in gan eden, and if you want it to be so, then keep the mitzvos and bring the geulah! That’s the only way. Having imagined compassion for animals does literally nothing towards that goal. You’re seeing an effect and mistaking it for the main goal; world peace even among people isn’t s goal in itself, but a kli machzik brocho, a vessel that holds bracha for us to be able to learn and do mitzvos unfettered.

Aharon hakohen, the elitome of compassion and peace – *gasp* killed animals for karbonos!

Pinchos was given a covenant of peace for…killing a wicked man!

Your ideas of peace are to be found not in Judaism, vut5in eastern religions like buddhism…so we have Zoroastrianism for the good things / bad things, and buddhism for the fake compassion towards “all living things” and superficial peace and love, all “based” on some reading of little medrash says….

Lovely

Avi – the shirts you’re referring to are probably undershirts.

Piskei teshuvos isn’t a source; it’s a compilation of sources, so would you mind posting which source he brings? Also, if shirts and pants aren’t required to not be freshly laundered, then that just leaves…suits? Clothing that is meant to protect against sweat, like socks, underwear and undershirts, are not a problem because they’re not worn for their own sake, nor are they “choshuv”, but pants and regular shirts? They most definitely are.

Someone who is upset over open violations of basic Torah law being done by someone who looks like a member of the community, without knowing whatever circumstances led you to this behavior, is not being judgemental. I’m sorry to be blunt – if you’re committing sins in full view of others, that is very different from what you do in the privacy of your home, it is a chillul hashem in the literal definition of the term and if someone cares about the Torah they will not readily be silent. Whatever reason you may have is not my business or anyone else’s; what is their business is that you’re doing something antithetical to Hashem’s will right in front of them, “in your face” type of thing.

Think of something you care about… what would you do if you saw a person hurting a child? Would you stand idly by and say “it’s his choice, I’m not going to judge”. “If someone was screaming racial slurs, would it not bother you enough to speak out? When it’s something you care about, you speak up – as rav chaim brisker used to say “when it hurts, you scream”

That doesn’t mean that everyone who rebukes you is doing the right thing. Often rebuke is fueled by less-than-holy motivations of knocking down others to make one’s self feel better about their own lack of self esteem.

Judgementalness is to judge you – or anyone else – as either being a tzadik or a rasha. Has anyone called you a rasha? If they have, they are mistaken. It is not in our ability to judge individuals, but we are obligated to judge actions and to stand up for kovod shomayim when applicable. One who does not protest chilul hashem is held accountable, as “silence is like admission”.

Hashem should help remove your pain and trauma and help you do teshuva shlaima, as you are his beloved daughter, the same as all of us.

Correction; i meant to say earlier that you get the mitzvah of davening with a minyan if you are *behind*, not if you’re *ahead” of everyone… I don’t know how to edit posts on here, so…

AAQ – they’re still very much sefardi; they meticulously keep sefardi minhagim and mesorah, and the yeshiva dress is just that – because they are bnei Torah. That’s how sefardi bnei torah dress in eretz yisroel too.

If someone wanted to revive the old sefardi bnei Torah way of dressing, then great! My point was that they dropped their goyishe dress that is common in the uneducated elements

What is the source for the chofetz chaim having to see rabbi kook? His students, as recorded by several including the son in law of rav yerucham gorelik, witnessed him belittle rabbi kook in grand fashion when he saw the latter praise the mechalelei shabbos soccer players. The former was eating breakfast and stopped when he heard, he banged on the table “kook muck shuck!!!” Ask any fallsburg magid shiur; rav abba gorelik related the story from his fathee rav yerucham all the time.

Rabbi kook has had a major PR job done to him over the years. The charedi world erased him from his once-had prominence, and the dati leumi world has reinvented him as a universally accepted figure.

Neither are true. He was initially held in very high esteem until his many aberrations were discovered and disseminated. Not least among them was his copying and pasting of 19th century Hegelian philosophy into Judaism. His acceptance and praise of anti religious murderers also was considered chanifa.

His statements that Rembrandt was a “tzadik” despite his not being a “7 mitzvos” follower and his numerous nude paintings… His vegetarianism and “compassion” which somehow was greater than all the tzadikim before him who ate meat, only served to buttress his growth into a divergent figure, not representative of normative judaism.

This change was made largely under the leadership of the chazon ish, who forbade his hashkafa books. See sefer maaseh ish for many details about this.

Rav Hutner famously removed rabbi kook’s picture from his sukkah, despite having learned by him.

These issues I’m sure have been discussed here a lot. Thankfully we have Gedolei Torah who are without these controversies, so why cling to the messianic speculations of people whose predictions have never come to pass? (I’m referring to his stated assurance that all the secular leaders of Israel would do teshuva)

Admittedly some gedolim defended him by saying that his ahavas yisroel made him go too far with the secular people, and this might be true. It also might be true that he was swept up in haskalah (he definitely studied secular philosophy), a lot of possibilities remain, but none substantiate his position of adding nationalism to a religion that has for millenia maintained its nationhood solely due to Torah and nothing else.

I think she’s unconsciously trolling

“relatively free of censorship”

….ever hear of chironos hashas?

AAQ – the “Septuagint” on nach is not chazal; it is used by Christians. The targum shviim was only on chumash.

If they called military defense “bitachon hatzvaah” or something, then I would not have objected to that extent. They used the singular word that jews had used for millenia exclusively referring to trusting hashem to refer to their new god, the army(more on that on a different thread).

Neither the rambam nor any other remotely religious jew ever considered agados chazal as legends. There is a machlokes if we interpret “some” as mesholim. A moshol is not a legend. A legend is a folk story, an untrue tale like abe Lincoln and the cherry tree. A moshol is a trueism, a parable meant to teach a lesson. However the term agada is not translatable as legendary; it is from magid, hagada, which means relating or retelling a story. In doing so, the zionists were trying to marginalize chazal.

Kibutz galiyos… if they wanted a word for immigration, they could call it just the misrad haklitah, which is an actual office of absorption and immigration. But to use a term that always referred to bias hamoshiach exclusively is to undermine that belief and say that, like hertzl sr”y said, our redemption is through zionism and statehood r”l.

Ben yehudah and his ill repeatedly wrote of their intentions and kept no secret of it – go look at their writings, instead of imbibing mother’s milk of zionist legend (agada!) without actual research.

Avi – I teach sefardi kids. They live in a sefardi neighborhood. Most of them think, myopically (but they’re kids… that’s normal) that almost the whole world is sefardi, and not just sefardi, but their type of sefardi. Many look down on ashkenazim and have epithets for them as well. I often meet them years later to see them in hats and jackets, “talking in learning” like everyone else. People grow up and see the world; it would do you well to put down the Uzi for a day or two , leave the settlement or moshav and see the rest of the Torah world.

My heavens the myopia! French jewry is a fraction of the hundreds and thousands of chasidim who speak yiddish as their first language. Add that to yerushalmis and Americans who give shiur in yiddish(like my own rebbeim) and you have at least half if not more of the Torah world speaking yiddish.

Aside from tzena urena and a few others, there isn’t much yiddish literature of value. And those have all been translated.

Plenty of elements of the yeshiva world have constituency who wear other dark colors besides dark navy/black. If someone goes to a yeshiva which a segment of the bochurim wear blue, gray, or other colors….that was never the issue under discussion here. I also don’t think you would want your sons to dress differently than everyone else; you’d probably suggest changing yeshivos to find a place where they fit in rather than be contrary to what the entire Yeshiva is doing.

I take issue with the insinuation that the reason why a rosh yeshiva did not reprimand you or your boys was because you were paying tuition. If you respect this rosh yeshiva as an authentic daas torah to the point where you entrust your boys to him to guide them and teach them Torah, then you should not think of him as anything less than what the Torah demands of chachamim – sonei batzah, etc…people who are unbiased and not motivated by money.

If you think that all the rosh yeshivos are impacted by money and that money will make you invulnerable… it’s sad that there are rosh yeshivos who are like that, but it is an affront to Torah to say that most or chas veshalom all are such.

AAQ – I spoke Hebrew when I lived in eretz yisroel. The majority of charedim also do. I never said not to; what I said was that there is
nothing good about hebrew and that a statement that we should drop Yiddish in favor of a language made by and for heretics for the purpose of eradicating Torah r”l is a horrible corruption. I was also responding to the assertion that somehow modern Hebrew is lashon kodesh. I also was explaining the advantages of speaking yiddish and its pure character.

Also, the fact that i can be targeted despite having no affiliation with the state or Zionism is precisely the problem – they have succeeded in making the massive chilul hashem that suggests that a bunch of ochlei nevala and mechalelei shabbos are our representatives.

“They were complicated” – no, they were rotzchim poshim and apikorsim. They railed against Torah jewry while fooling the naive religious zionists into thinking that they were allies at times.

There is no room in klal yisroel for mechalelei shabbos. They have the halacha of a non jew, whether or not they are tonokos shenishbu. Most of the early leaders definitely were not tinokos shenishbu. Halacha defined who has the status of a Jew, and one who is not oseh maaseh amcha is NOT part of us. Judaism is a religion, not a race or nation, as rav saadia gaon writes, the Jewish nation is only such because of its Torah! Our leaders must be at the very least part of the nation and without Torah they are not.

The other reasons for picking a distinct mode of dress, aside from the dignified appearance of black and white, are several:

Separation from goyim – while according to most opinions, one does not violate the letter of the law of bechukosayhem lo saylaychu as long as they are noticeably jewish (yarmulkah, tzitzis) it is still encouraged by the poskim as a way to keep ourselves aware of our separation from goyim. That applies even moreso when going to work; the last thing a jewish man wants is to end up feeling like one of the crowd in an office full of inappropriate relationships, language etc.

Protection: very often, the desire to not make a chilul hashem will prevent a man from doing something he ought not do, because he is noticeably jewish, a representative of hashem.

Status; the rambam says that talmidei chachamim and their students are noticeable in their dress. They look different from the general populace.

Clearly self expression in the form of dress is not a factor in the halachik and hashkafic discussions of gedolei yisroel throughout generations. Largely because for men, it is non existent.

Why would one choose clothing as a way to express his personality…

Even among western men’s clothing variety, there aren’t that many ways one can dress. For women, a discussion about where a woman “bought that” can be had because there are millions of different designs… Effort is put into women’s fashion. Women definitely express themselves by their clothing choices and outfits.

For men it’s basically either a polo shirt, dress shirt, jeans, slacks, cotton pants or a suit… Men don’t have “outfits” and “accessories”. Men also generally hate shopping for clothes, buy whatever is good material, looks good at first glance, and move on.

Men don’t express themselves very much in the way they dress, except when they want to be rebellious, feel that the Torah world “isn’t me”, or want to blend in with goyim.

If a yeshivish guy feels stifled by the dress code… Ask them, do they write? Sing? Dance? Paint? There are many ways to express one’s self, but all too often, the answer to all the aforementioned questions will be a resounding “no”. True expression isn’t something that they’re interested in doing.

It’s just an excuse to want to be more modern.

Avi, I was referring to the progenitors of the two languages. Yiddish was born from Torah life and has many, many expressions that are based on Torah and chazal. The fact that people came later and abrogated it, and poisoned it with foul things does not affect the yiddish that we have today and that is spoken by frum “yidden”.

Hebrew, by contrast, was designed for the specific purpose of “reviving” judaism to be zionism, a culture with a land, language, etc…it was created from infancy with a disdain of Torah.

As per your quotes from Rav Moshe – Rav moshe himself, did not speak lashon kodesh. Neither did virtually any of the rishonim, achronim, or amoraim!! He calls it a “ma’aleh”, and he says that chasidei elyon did not take upon themselves this maaleh. To think that we are above them is hubris and the height of arrogance.

Also, it’s a moot point because… Again, eretz yisroel does NOT equal the state of Israel, and modern hebrew does NOT equal lashon kodesh. Tell me, when the “people of ill repute” talk to customers in Hebrew, is that better or worse than if they were speaking in Arabic? What about gangsters and robbers? Also, the rambams definition of what makes Hebrew holy does NOT apply to modern Hebrew in the slightest, even if it were purely based on lashon kodesh, which it isn’t.