AviraDeArah

Reb Eliezer; according to that reasoning, selling bosor becholov also shouldn’t be an issur hanaah either. Rather, a good definition would be any benefit that comes from the use of the object, so if i use the bosor becholov to feed the dog, and that act makes me happy to see him eat it, that pleasure is coming from the use of issurei hanaah.

Nowehere does the rambam say that YOU should learn philosophers. He actually writes in the same hakdama that he did it so that Jews wouldn’t have to search elsewhere for hashkafa – there was a lot of, aptly named nevuchim – confused people, who were into philosophy. It’s true that the rambam holds one is mekayam vehashayvosa al livavecha through philosophy, but even that’s only A) people who have filled their “stomachs with shas and poskim” and B) about yichud Hashem, which brings me to my next point – the rishonim who were busy with philosophy were studying logic and concepts to understand emunah. Nowehere does the rambam get his morals or values from Aristotle. See the first bartenura on pirkei avos – he says that avos starts off with the chain of mesorah because you shouldn’t think that ethics and morals are a free for all with the rabbis making things up as they see fit or according to their own understanding. Rather, he says, just as every other mishnah is torah she baal peh, so too are middos and ethics – purely Torah.

That’s a huge distinction.

One rishon holds “potrin oso miyad” by the case where every member of sanhedrin convicts by a chiyuv misa, that it means we kill him right away. The komarna rebbe in shulchan hatahor says that safek brachos lehakel means to make a bracha. Do we deal with those shitos in lractice? Not really. If there is such a malbim (source please?) It’s not what the rishonim on the gemara say, and it’s not pashut pshat. We wouldn’t use it to dismiss the idea of the gemara since it’s echoed elsewhere.

Also, rashi on mitzvos laav lehanos nitnu can fit – he’s not (nor is the gemara on that sugya) addressing abstract feelings, but rather hanaah in the context of every case in the gemara, which refers to physical benefit.

Rand’s theories on ethics and morals have as much place in a beis medrash as zeus and hercules

Also, where does rashi “negate all charity not done for a mitzvah”

The gemara itself says chessed leumim chatas, that chessed done by goyim is sin, because it’s just to boast and feel pride

Avi, not to weigh in on a machlokes between goyim who you see as authorities on matters of hashkofa..

Rashi says chesed shel emes by burying the deceased is so called because “aino metzapeh leteshlum gevul”, he does not expect recompense. That’s my definition.

Chasidishe rebbes used to give a poor person tzedaka multiple times, because the first time it’s to alleviate tzaar that you feel, abd then afterwards eventually it’s totally lishma.

When I’m talking altruism, I’m discussing chessed lishma, for the sake of helping others. Not because of promoting peace between goyim and us, and not because the goy will help you in the future, or other ulterior motives

Reb Eliezer, if i can be mahaneh a yid, why not?
The nazis did a lot of things. They clamped down on the media, confiscated firearms, indoctrinated youth, and employed propoganda. The germans didn’t hate jews because they were guilty of the sin of generalization. Let’s say all jews are bad, in their mind – let’s say I think most (blank) people are criminals and are a drain on society. Does that give them the license to kill and commit genocide? The two have nothing in common. Their evil and their crime wasn’t in their blanket judgement of the jews, it was in the genocide and oppression that they used that hatred as a justification therefore.

The problem begins when people start looking at ancillary causes for anti semitism. Anti semitism, as my poem spells out, is a divine boon without a discernible cause, as no matter what jews sldo they are eternally hated. Attributing nazism to secular causes, aligning one’s self with liberals who preach that racism is the root of all evil, is to give a quasi idolatrous spin on history.

By playing into the narrative of the anti-racists and conceding that the holocaust was due to it, we are agreeing that if not for tha5t, the holocaust would not have happened. To milchomo-yidden, we were told never to bring up the aveiros and downward trajectory of European jewry, because the gemara says that if you tell someone that their suffering is because of their sins, it’s onaas devorim – hurtful words. Rashi says not because it’s not true, but rather because the person is pained by the realization that had he not sinned this suffering would not have come upon him.

How is it any less hurtful to tell a milchomo-yid that if not for racism, if only western liberalism had spread enough in germany, then your wife and kids would still be alive?

Attributibf our suffering to anything other than hashgocha is not in our frame of reference….if a highway rail fails, we examine our ways – and of course fix the railing! So if we can try to make kiddiush hashem with goyim and hope that maybe it will mitigate antisemitism…fine, but when i cross that line and start developing ideologies…. that racism need be avoided at all costs in order to prevent a holocaust, or that nationalism must be adopted to prevent another holocaust…. it’s missing source and attacking the rod, the shevet evraso of Hashem.

What i meant is that Hashem tells us what he cares about in the Torah. As far as i know, grouping people together and making fun kf them isn’t in the list of things Hashem tells us that he hates. Actually, Hashem groups people together quite often – allmon and moav, amalek, etc…of course there are details that allow for individual growth in most of those laws, but if someone is more bothered by racist humor than by chilul shabbos, that shows a profound lack of priorities.

It is very easy to dress up the term “mumar”, apostate….as “well, he used to be frum but we can’t judge him because when he wasn’t busy making fun of us he defended us from…. something”

If he had smicha, doesn’t that take him out of the fancied tinok shenishba category? If that doesn’t, what does? Are our enemies only those who physically oppose us? Are we any different from a non jewish nation which respects the rights of its citizens to cast off their traditions and is only mad if they oppose them politically?

Who is a rasha besides…neturei karta? Political enemies who believe in Hashem and serve Him, despite whatever delusions and garbage they follow.

Can modern orthodoxy admit to the concept that someone who breaks halacha openly is a rasha? We shouldn’t really have to have this discussion. It’s something that one gets from reading an english bible. Yet such baaic truths, in the words of the ramchal…in the degree to which they are revealed and known, they are hidden”… Modern orthodoxy grapples with the most fundamental ideas of Judaism, fighting with scripture in comical ways and inventing ad hoc systems of thought to gloss over biblical and talmudic realities. They deny the evils of homosexuality, feminism, abortion, to name but a few.

Someone who has smicha and goes off is a rasha, and a shoneh uporesh.

C’mon, i said a good pilpul… Let me enjoy myself

“al hakol” clearly doesn’t mean every single person, as chaz say kol hamerachem al ha’achzari, etc, and again the halacha of ain mefakchin

Notice how the rambam here omits the afilu akum, whereas by tzedaka he says it – must be because of darchei sholom exclusively! That by akum there’s a special reason to give tzedaka erc, irrespective of the other reasons that apply to ger toshav or avadim – and that’s darchei sholom. Your quote is a very clear diyuk – shkoyach for the proof!

If the rambam meant the idea of chesed, or emulating hashem as applying to akum, he would have said afilu akum in hilchos avadim, or at the very least said darchei sholom( if darchei sholom means the pshat you’re saying it means) by avadim too

Gadol; the gemara says one is not allowed to save the life of an oved avodah zara, even if paid to do so, except in a case where hatred of jews would become increased (mipnei aivah). Today’s goyim who believe in monotheism are not subject to that prohibition and one may save their lives regardless of the aforementioned, though it definitely is not an intrinsic obligation.

As it happens to be, the halacha i quoted above – ain mefakchin alav es hagal, that we are prohibited from saving the lives of ovdei avodah zara, should be proof enough that darchei sholom was never intended to mean more than promoting peace with goyim (mipnei aivah is different, it allows that which would normally be a worse sin, darchei sholom allows a lesser sin, though this is my own chidush and I’m not going to stand by it should it be disproven)

If saving their lives or healing them is assur, feeding them if they’re hungry should be no different, absent darchei sholom in the latter and aivah in the former

Worth noting in addition is that no other rishonim who bring this gemara mention the pesukim of the rambam or anything else; it’s not in the shulchan aruch or nosei keilim

Gevalt – you quoted the last part of the halacha of the rambam and are…again….missing the first part of the same halacha regarding ger toshav, which the rambam says “yereah li” “it appears to me” that one must dl gemilus chasadim and derech eretz LIKE A JEW, making a clear distinction between jew and akum., Then he turns to akum and says “afilu” akum, meaning don’t think that since im saying to treat a ger toshav like a yid that a goy whos oved avoda zara you should treat like garbage, since tzkvu chachamim, the chachamim commanded us to feed their poor, etc (omitting.hashovas aveidah and other mitzvos), because of darchei sholom. “Harei neemar” with this the rambam brings 2 pesukim for 2 different ideas, the 2nd pasuk of vechol nesivoseah sholom means that the way we behave should lead to sholom, and the first pasuk is anyone’s guess, but if we are to say like you that it’s advocating altruism “lishma”, we wouldn’t need the two pesukim, would we? That would be enough of a reason without nesivoseah sholom…rather i think the two pesukim refer to the two people discussed in this halacha, the first pasuk of rachamav al kol maasav refers to the ger toshav and the 2nd, referring to making peace, refers to the akum

Have you ever “learned up” a rambam before?

In some people’s view, singling out Israel over other countries that have human rights violations (china, Russia, Arab world) is anti semitic bias. Why would B&J only boycott Israel, while ignoring actual genocide of Chinese Muslims and other atrocities?

I tend to agree, though I’m no fan of Israel or its policies, as I’ve made abundantly clear here over the past few weeks

If eshes chayil is indeed from a very chasidish community, i dont think the coffee room will provide her any assistance – be the ammunition for snarky comments? Yes, but helpful…no

Avi; would you mind telling us where you got the story of rav aryeh levine from? You’re good at mareh mekomos

Avi; id think you’d be the first not to compare rishonim/achronim with neviim. If they had written “this is only beshaas hadchak” on the label, I don’t think it would have accomplished their goals at all. It’s up to those who are the baalei mesorah to understand what’s meant ledoros and what’s not. The vast majority of rav hirschs torah is ledoros and i am among his avid fans and admirers. There are, however, certain things that must be understood in the context of the state of german jewry. Modern people LOVE this academic context-oriented approach when it comes to dismissing the chasam sofer etc, or saying that the rambam was just parroting Aristotle cv”s, but when it comes to their own sacred cows…..the payos come out and we can’t question the context of unusual statements made by yechidim that don’t fit the framework of chazal. Why is it ok to say that chazal believed in the existence of the fire breathing salamander “just because the goyim did” but not ok to say that rav hirsch advocated for social justice to win the favor of the masses of german jewry who were falling away en masse? It’s hypocritical snd intellectually dishonest.

I never said that rav hirsch et al wrote about goyim because of his influence cv”s, by having good relations with them. I said that he was doing kiruv and packaging yiddishkeit in a way that’s palatable for newcomers and people educated with progressive and universalist ideology. Think of what aish hatorah does. Did rav hirsch argue with chazal that goyim who dont keep the 7 mitzvos bekavanah have no olam habah? There’s even a machlokes in the gemara in sanhedrin if goyim who DO Keep the mitzvos have it. Did he argue on the punishment of a mechalel shabbos? No, but he didn’t talk about it much either, because he had a goal, which he accomplished – the yekkishe community is along, if not the most staunchly traditional community in the world with their minhagim and adherence to halacha.

The kav hayasher, rav kordenoiver, was the rov of frankfurt a while before the aruch leneir; he probably had good relations with the gemutliche germans too, but that didn’t stop him from writing all about tumas akum, romemus yisroel, etc..

To clarify my position on the meiri and omission; even if the rishonim and achronim didn’t have access to it, fhe fact that the gedolei poskim, asher mipihem anu chayin, do not mention it, means that they learned the sugya differently and that the halacha therefore should follow the overwhelming majority who omit this exception to chazals rule that it is assur to return a goys aveidah. That’s different than the falacy of the omission of the 3 osths (it’s quoted A LOT in the rishonim and achronim…the rambam, ramban, tashbetz, rashbash, maharal, many others) but 5hat misses the point that the 3 oaths ARE A GEMARA, so the question is why aren’t they mentioned, not why are they….here it’s the opposite, here we have a chidush from a rishon…if it’s not mentioned, it’s clear that it’s not halacha. If a gemara isn’t mentioned, we ASSUME THAT A GEMARA IS A DIN, because it’s a Gemara….we then ask why it’s not in the tur and mishneh torah, and there are answers given. Either it’s stam a kefira in bias hamoshiach, as the satmar rov wrote, or it’s not a din per se, but an exhortation not to do it because there will be redifos chas veshalom (rav belsky zt”l), either way the gemara says not to do it so we don’t do it. It’s not like other things that the rishonim say are not nogaya anymore, like the refuos in the gemara which tosfos says are not nogaya, or mayim emtzaiim, there we have rishonim who bring the gemara and say why we don’t follow it. Here by the shevuos no kadmon says that it’s not nogaya.

Yes, if you learned the sugya of hafkaras mamonam and yiush with the rishonim you’d see that the meiri doesn’t fit at all. You seem to be very good at finding mareh mekomos for things, but i believe that your strength in bekius needs to be built around learning sugyos be’iyun, of which I’ve seen little example.

Also, who says the majority of goyim are mayshiv aveidos? I believe that they don’t. I don’t think most goyim put up signs or ads in papers that they found a diamond ring. The only thing theily seem to be careful with is returning dogs. Hamayvin yovin.

Yashrus doesn’t mean we treat goyim like yidden. Hashavas aveida is a special mitzvah, like Rashi says, between yidden. It’s not for goyim inherently, absent kiddush/chilul hashem tangents

Maid; i feel that your question to our esteemed poster was accusatory and frankly abusive. Wanting to be with people who understand your personality because they have a similar neurological makeup is not “reveling”, it is feeling validated and familiar, and not the “other”. We’re not talking about someone who is, say overweight, and prefers being around obese people to not feel that they have to lose weight. Autistic people are born autistic and that’s how hashem made them; they deserve to feel comfortable among us and each other just as much as anyone else. Whatever differences they have socially etc, are not our business. Our business is to be mekayam veahavta lereacha kamocha and nothing more.

Think of it this way; you’re lubavitch, I’m guessing from your acreenane. Imagine never being around anyone – not one person, who has heard of lubavitch, nor are they interested to. They’re all, say… mongolians. They don’t even speak English. Wouldn’t you miss being around other yidden and especially around other chabadniks? Does that mean you’re “revelling”?

Ephraim has been hurt enough as it is, let’s not add insult to injury.

AAQ, also we have times when rishonim wrote things that were interpreted to be intended only for their time snd audience; many hold that the rambam wrote that there is no such thing as kishuf and sheidim to get jews away from such things that were culturally widespread in Egypt; the rambaN dismisses medrashim in his debates with Christians, while his actions were understood to only be permitted in that context

It’s not an issue of “convenience”, it’s an issue of, is this sefer going against pashut pshat and mesora from chazal? If it is, then we are open to exterior explanations… it’s not to fit some yeshivishe myopia as modern people claim. If chazal and rishonim say that the world is 5781 years old, then anything else we find should be made to comport with that, not the other way around. If chaz say that hashavas aveida stam is assur, and one sefer says a wild chidush that it’s not because of the way you learn the sugya normally; i.e. they’re automatically meyayesh because goyim dont return lost items al pi rov, or because of hafksras mamonam, or other pshatim, but a wild chidush that it’s only because they wouldn’t return ours….you can ask a ton of kashas on that pshat; why would the halacha of ownership and gezel depend on their attitude towards us? If one person steals, it doesn’t mean you can steal from him

Saying that it was a necessary contrivance is the more reasonable assumption

The gemara in kesuvos 68 says that we should have gratitude to the remaim, the fraudsters, because if not for them we’d have to give everyone indiscriminately without checking, and if we didn’t we’d be sinning every day

Imagine being grateful for thieves!

The rambam.you quoted is, as not surprising…wrenched out of context. He does not say “non jew”, he says akum, which is in contrast to the lines above your quote where he says that it appears to him that a ger toshav receives chessed like a Jew. Then he says that even an idol worshipper receives tzedaka, visiting their sick and burying their dead, because of darchei sholom. See Taz on the shulchan aruch seif that you quoted that explains that there is no connection at all between the giving lf tzedaka to goyim and to Jews, by yidden it’s a mitzvah and by goyim it’s just darchei sholom.

Boruch – the achronim completely ignore that meiri; it’s a daas yochid; I didn’t mention it because we don’t pasken like him.

I never said giving tzedaka to goyim is a bedieved, i said that it’s an ends to a means and not lishma or altruism.

Avi – the lives of the Jews in arab countries were still exponentially better than their ashkenazi counterparts. Blood libels were everywhere in Europe, but only happened in the 1500s in the ottoman empire – “suleiman the magnificent” issued a firma, a legal ban on blood libels in that time, as did another muslim ruler in the mid 1800s at the behest of moses montefiore. Then they became very popular…. Guess when? In the 20th century. Thank you Zionism.

Being a jew in galus was and is no picnic, but jews flourished in the arab lands, with free access to professions, markets, freedom of movement, yeshivos, and they had shuls.. I don’t know the details of your claims, but they had beautiful shuls, and their example is copied by sefardi jews in America, sometimes to a fault.

If not for zionism, we could have easily immigrated to Arab lands, had the zionists not stoked a fiery hatred of us prior. We didn’t need their help. If not for zionism, said the chazon ish, jews would jave davened and done teshuva and been saved from the holocaust like the yerushalmis who prevented rommel from attacking eretz yisroel with their teshuva and fasting. Instead they relied on kochi veotzem yadi and we know what happened afterwards.

The state is not just “imperfect” it is rotten at the core, the mamzer of the union between nationalism and jewish identitarianism