Forum Replies Created
***These days when someone imagines something everyone else needs to pretend it’s reality to avoid hurting their feelings.
It’s evident that you’ll insist on placing the blame on the Jews regardless of the argument.
Generalizing, placing blame, and falsely portraying an already-marginalized community is not a problem with the community it’s problem with those spreading the misinformation.
Yes, we need to be especially careful as visible Jews and acknowledge that we, by nature, represent our community, but it takes no time at all for those reporting to confirm that the rest of us are NOT flouting the rules.
We are not more to blame, nor more responsible, than the other minority communities who have higher infection rates. And we shouldn’t have to take it from the anti-Semites who are capitalizing on this opportunity, nor from individuals like you.
I live in a community in which nearly everyone complies, and they are forced to comply in shuls because the Rabbis are careful. The schools have safety measures in place, support the use of, and provide, PPE. The fact is, you expect the entire religious community to take responsibility for the few thousand people who refuse to comply. You believe that we all brought any hatred on ourselves. All this, when there are non-Jewish communities with higher rates and less compliance, who are NOT being scapegoated and slandered by the government and the media.
The blatant non-compliance by the few is wrong, but the target on our backs is not our own fault. Two things can be true at once.
I listened to those recordings and I believe they’ve realized that they’re dealing with an egotistical “ruler” who needs to be buttered up in order to quell his need for revenge against the Jews for “defying his orders”. Also, you get what you give, so they’re trying to negotiate. You have to know your clientele, you know?
This September I worked in 3 separate Yeshivos, all were complying. A number of yeshivos and schools actually worked with a leading epidemiologist to figure out a plan for this school year. Children are separated into cohorts and only come into contact with other children within their cohorts, even on bus rides to and from school. The schools that I worked in were all exceptionally careful. In one, a child was thought to have been exposed, wasn’t showing symptoms, and the entire class went into quarantine for two weeks. Prior to RH the inspectors came, praised the children’s compliance and the school’s procedures and then shut them down. I see countless Jews each day going to and from shul who are and have been wearing masks. This is why it frustrates me so much to hear the vitriol and blame coming from among us.
Bottom line is, we’re araivim zeh lazeh. But that doesn’t make the slanderous claims logical or warranted.
Prior to the Nazi rise to power, Jews in Germany were as well accepted and respected in society as we are here. They held positions in government, held leading positions in every profession. Not only that, but they were viewed as more ‘mainstream’ than we are here due to their ‘yekish’ appearance.
Do you think the Germans woke up one day hating the Jews? They were systematically brainwashed through the media, Goebel’s use of false tropes specifically aimed at dehumanizing the Jews, describing them as repulsive, money hungry and spreaders of disease. Laws were enacted to alienate the Jews and force those who were still sympathetic to Jews to avoid them. Do you think there was no outcry in Germany, or Jews partnering with government officials, who assured them that “the idiot” would never succeed? Holocaust survivors have described and recorded their experience, you just need to listen.
They weren’t just rounded up one day. They were dehumanized, made to be ‘other’ and ‘less than’ through law and indoctrination. It didn’t start with the Gestapo beating the Jews on the streets, it was German citizens first. Hitler youth walked through the streets preying on Men, Women, Children, Elderly – anyone who could be identified as Jewish. All of this began in the early 30s and continued for years before Hitler even decided to pursue his “Final Solution” and Jews were rounded up to be exterminated.
Jews in Germany tried following the law and laying low, thought if they complied it would all pass. They blamed it on the communist Jews and the illegal Polish-Jewish refugees, who weren’t as well off or as polished as they were. They normalized and minimized the persecution until it was too late.
Yes, it’s different in the sense that this isn’t a public attempt at rounding us up and exterminating us. However, the beginnings of a tragedy are peaking around the bend and it’s frightening that you can just sit back and write it off. Did you know that a large percentage of American youth have no idea about the magnitude of the Holocaust? A pretty high percentage even reported that the Jews CAUSED the Holocaust. Statistics show that there’s an average of more than one physical attack on religious Jews each week in NY. Do you think that Cuomo and DeBlasio’s rhetoric haven’t played into that? Other minority groups have had a MUCH higher positivity rate than the Jews, with many more cases. Can you imagine either the governor or mayor getting away with slandering them and blaming them the way he does us?
Non-Jews are literally walking down the street yelling at Jews to put on their masks. “Jews spread COVID.” Jews have faced 56.9% of ALL violent religious hate crimes in the US, we’re just a mere 1.7% of the population. And that was in 2018, imagine how high the percentage would be this year, with more than one violent incident being reported each week. Does that not spark fear in your heart? Is it okay for the government to malign our community with false reports, such as the “planning a mass wedding” or “Mass gatherings” in shuls who had the audacity to have 20 people in a building that could accommodate hundreds?
200 years ago, owning slaves in the US was lawful. In Nazi Germany attacking and murdering Jews on the street was lawful. In Brooklyn NY, violating our fourth amendment rights by breaking into batei midrashim through windows without a warrant, threatening attendees with arrest is ‘lawful’. Violating our first amendment right to assemble is lawful.
Do you know that our communities have NOT had the highest rates over the past month? Cuomo staffers stated that there was no consistent method used in identifying ‘Red Zones’. Secular establishments, streets and parks all over the five boroughs are filled with non-Jews who aren’t wearing masks, in neighborhoods with higher transmission rates. I see this with my own two eyes while driving to and from work. And we’ve been testing at crazy high rates, just trying to appease the government and prove to them that we aren’t “disease spreaders”. It is a targeted attack on the Jews, an attempt at blaming us for this current, PREDICTED rise in cases.
It scares me that you can write this off while blaming your fellow Jews.
I have stated that I’ve seen widespread compliance in Midwood. Others have stated that they haven’t seen it. I’m not sure where they live, but I live around several shuls and throughout the past month+ it is RARE to see a frum Jew without a mask. I’ve never advocated against wearing masks, myself and my family members wear masks whether we believe in their effectiveness or not.
However, so many commenters, especially those who don’t live here, are convinced that we weren’t masked or social distanced and the government’s critique is warranted. In reality, there is a significant amount of anti Semitism that is driving the focus on the frum community. Cuomo pointed to one neighborhood, in which some were complying and some weren’t, and painted us all, even those of us from other areas, as “defiant spreaders”. His staffers admitted that there is no statistical measure with which the “Red Zones” were established. What was reported on the news wasn’t true of MOST of Orthodox Jews in NY. My point is that they’ll point out the few who aren’t compliant and make an issue of that, while simultaneously ignoring gatherings and non-compliance in non-Jewish areas despite a steep increase in cases.
You are just incorrect to claim that these government actions are warranted.
I’m pining to see which one of you volunteers as a Kapo when the “block by block” tracing turns into ghettos. Cases have been rising exponentially in other areas of the state, such as the Bronx and I have yet to see Cuomo call them out on the news.
Charli, Midwood has a very high compliance rate in shuls and out and about and one of the highest # of positive cases. One neighborhood over where there has been little compliance and a large religious population was never considered a red zone and did not have this rise in cases.
Despite the fact that we have many cases in these religious neighborhoods, we are not spreading the virus exponentially. This would be the case if we were “not complying”. There are individuals within certain kehillos who are intentionally flouting the guidelines, however it is not a large portion of Orthodox, Hasidic Jews.
As of yesterday the transmission rate in BP is lower than the transmission rate in 56 other zip codes. Many people have it, many large families may have contracted it and shared it within the household, but the cases aren’t rising in a way that would suggest virulent spreading.
High cases, but contained and not increasing exponentially, which means there IS a certain level of compliance, even above some other communities.
BTW, the hardest hit community, which also has the MOST cases currently is a majority Muslim community in Queens that had a mass gathering last week, with little compliance according to eyewitnesses, that was never even mentioned on the news. You really have to start doing research and stop believing everything you see at face value.
I live in Midwood and I’ve never seen the laxity which you’re referring to. An 8 year old kid came into one of the shuls without a mask in August and they kicked him out. On YK, when Jews were told by the rabbanim to wear the masks outside, even though they weren’t required outside yet, EVERY Jewish person I passed in the street was wearing a mask. EVERY non-Jewish person I saw in the street WASN’T – I saw plenty.
I haven’t been to the BP area in a while, but around here the guidelines have been followed.
As far as schools go, I’m aware of what was going on within a number of mosdos and will just ask you to re-read what my original post because it is an accurate account of what happened. They were following guidelines in excess of CDC suggestion, working with an infectious disease specialist, and were shut down regardless.
This isn’t about doing what’s right, because they DID do what was right and were still shut down. Multiple Yeshivos were visited by health inspectors before RH who praised their compliance, PPE usage, procedures to minimize interaction between cohorts, quarantining of cohorts if there was a suspected exposure. They were shut down the next day.
We do what’s right, we’re called out for the few who don’t. Stop the blame game.
I don’t know where you got this information. I have watched videos of Sweden and accounts from their citizens, they are basically BACK TO NORMAL. They did not have any shutdowns at all so there were no “rules to follow” they closed schools and colleges, but they never shut down businesses – even nonessential businesses. They washed their hands, practiced some social distancing, and went about their business. Yes, many people died, but they have beat the virus. In addition, they are a country the size of California with 1/4 of the number of the population of California. They have 10.5 Million citizens total. That’s only two million more than people in NYC for many times the amount of space. You can’t compare.
BUT, for all of you calling “Rodeph”. A person who goes out while knowingly infected can be considered a Rodeph. Masks are NOT reliable, they are NOT considered more than 30% effective and only tightly fitted N95 masks actually keep the virus out, and even then, you need to make sure that you wash your hands and face to keep the particles away. Bottom line is, it isn’t as dangerous as you think, Doctors just didn’t know how to treat it effectively. Be extra cautious if you have family members or acquaintances who have preexisting conditions that put them at risk. Otherwise, just keep your hands clean and use common sense about when and wear you need to wear a mask.
DaasYochid – They do not have enough information to produce statistically valuable data and the percentage would likely be a fraction of 1%. “Today, another .012% of NYC residents tested positive for COVID” – would that keep you at home? Because that is, in fact, the percentage of NYC residents who tested positive today. By choosing to use the number of cases, especially without leaving room for the margin of error as they did in past epidemics, they can continue to push a narrative of fear. Fear is the one thing that makes people willingly give up their freedom, which is necessary for them to enact their marxist ideology.
The Biden Harris website states that they support the Green New Deal.
You are so quick to assume that this is not already happening. Every shul has a box of masks available and a limited capacity. Over YT many of the shuls have used tents to extend the square footage to allow for more social distancing.
The mass events over the past two days reflects the frustration of people who are fed up of trying their best and being targeted nonsensically. Yes, it was stupid to protest without masks, but should we sit here and allow ourselves to be bludgeoned by the governor as if our entire community of hundreds of thousands are flouting the guidelines?
Today a non-Jew called me a “Super spreader” because “Jews have Covid”. I’ve been home for months and wear masks everywhere. There’s no evidence to suggest that our population has a higher infection rate. Healthy people in our communities are not testing right now, especially since most are not working for the holidays. If only people who feel ill test, a large percentage of them may be sick. It doesn’t mean that the percentage of Jews with the virus is greater.
So, no, the answer isn’t “Just listen to the guidelines”, because even when the guidelines ARE followed they close our schools and announce to the world that they needed to close a yeshiva, or point out the few Jews they found without masks. And using images of mass gatherings of Chassidic Jews from 2007 in press releases, trying to depict to the public that we’re doing that?! How is that acceptable?
Yes, Jews should please be hyper-vigilant about following the guidelines AND Cuomo should stop acting like a blatant anti Semite, inciting hatred against our people.
Did you not read my post?
The number of cases are not higher in our communities. The number of positive tests in relation to total tests taken is higher. This does not reflect anything of the general population.
The health department visited schools before YK, admitted that proper precautions were in place, expressed approval, then closed the schools.
On any given day I see more non-Jews not wearing masks than I do Jews who aren’t wearing masks.
The VAST MAJORITY of institutions and establishments are keeping to the guidelines, and have been for some time. MOST of the people are wearing masks.
The issue is that he continuously, publicly, carried on about the non-compliance when there has been compliance, and that he points out the rise in percentages JUST within our communities, when other minorities who also live in crowded communities have similar rates.
You’re correct. Governor Murphy (NJ) has requested that healthy people test to improve their rates.
The testing rates are statistically flawed as they don’t reflect the health of the general population at all.
It makes me think that Cuomo is spreading these libelous claims to exact revenge for the fact that we opened camps in the summer successfully and without any uptick in other states when he refused to allow it. How dare the Jews defy his draconian decrees. He’ll show them.
In short, yes we probably should have more people test.
Violence and destruction over the past few months have come almost exclusively from the Left.
The only ones who are trying to drastically change this country, who don’t respect the constitution or individual freedoms, are the Democratic Left.
It’s scary how much you can ignore the destruction of communities, murder of innocent people (white and black, who DIDN’T commit crimes) and blindly follow what the media tells you.
If you know anything about the democrats, it’s them who you should be worried about. Look at NY and its authoritarian government. Trump is NOT an anti semite, but even if he supported them, ALL Americans are better off with a government that stays out of their business rather than one that encroaches on personal freedoms.
I’d urge you to do some research before you believe exactly what the media wants you to think. “The Proud Boys” are a group of Americans from all races who believe in constitutional values. They aren’t Alt-Right, and they disavow any alt-right members. You can find this information on their website, which is buried deep in the google search results. They aren’t anti-semitic, or racist and neither is their founder Gavin McInnes.
I used to listen to Gavin McInnes’ political humor before he founded the proud boys. I can tell you that he’s far less likely to be anti-semitic than the average leftist on a college campus.
We live in times when ppl call the DENIAL of the “right” to kill babies in the womb a human rights violation, when men can be women and women, men, and a time when those who commit crimes are hailed as heroes by the media and the left. Why would you take their word for anything? Do some research. No, I don’t support the proud boys as a group, but at least do your research. Trump knows them as a group who stands up to violent Antifa members and supports the constitution.
Where is the Yiddish Kup in all of this? Do we not think critically anymore?
Huju makes a good point in that neither choice would be ideal and we need to choose the candidate which follows policies which best suit this countries interest.
In response to Tachles1, you HEAR that these people are white supremacists, but over the past few years people have been labeled whatever the left wants them labeled. Reading a CNN headline doesn’t qualify as research. This group is more closely aligned with isolationist and constitutional views. Within the group there may be anti-semites, but they aren’t white supremacists as a whole.
Additionally, the left will call this same group anti-Semitic for its preferences of putting the American budget and safety above Israel, then the Left will go and say “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-Zionist” and “I only hate Israelis, not Jews”. Think for yourselves.
Also, it would be prudent of us all to evaluate a person’s actions as a whole. Trump doesn’t seem to be anti-Semitic, or to hate a particular group at all. He’s been in office long enough that we would’ve found him out.
No, Trump isn’t Hitler ymsh, he has denounced white supremacy and isn’t pushing for discrimination against any group.
I’m involved in leftist spaces, and can confidently say that they are some of the worst anti semites. People will call themselves activists and then ignore when Jews are attacked for their beliefs. We are lucky that some larger communities face little anti semitism on a daily basis, but many individuals in America are threatened just for their existence. I can say that I have RARELY faced any form of hatred from conservatives, although there’s plenty of it on the far right.
It’s also obvious that some of the politicians in the Democratic party are blatantly anti semitic and hold values that would destroy the ability for people to live freely in this country.
I do research from multiple sources which hold drastically different viewpoints before I determine which aspects of a report are true. If I hear that a political figure does something of concern I sift through reports from both sides of the aisle and based on the commonalities, I can determine which aspects are factual and which are biased twists of the action. Maybe you should try that.
I don’t know why no one made the secular argument for those who aren’t bound by the laws of the Torah.
If man believes that each individual has the inalienable rights of LIFE, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, then the answer is NO. Science has determined that a “fetus” is an unborn child, feels pain from very early on in the pregnancy, and is a LIFE. You cannot terminate someone else’s life without violating their rights. You cannot murder a baby.
Keep in mind that the tenets with regard to the value of a life are basically the same in the Torah.
Some people believe strongly in social justice and because of their good intentions they are willing to look past issues within the ideology. There are also those who know little about politics and really believe that Trump is comparable to Hitler ymsh. They think it’s their duty to vote him out and save the world. Finally, there are people who believe in Marxist ideologies and think that it would be ideal. Those people are willing to sacrifice freedom, truth, and justice, to pave the way for the implementation of those ideals.
Some people have good intentions, such as the first mentioned group, others not so much. Ultimately, those who support Biden have an entire different life view, which to them, makes their position justified and good.
Personally, the values with which I was raised dictate that I hold other beliefs.