Forum Replies Created
It’s one thing to “wrongly but legally” hire foreign workers (documented or not), quite another to then campaign about bringing jobs to americans.
Sorry, you would have to listen to more than pop-media to hear the truth. Rubio has actually exposed a great deal about trumps flaws: he hired foreigners to build his towers in order to pay smaller wages, while campaigning about bringing jobs to americans. All of the clothing he makes is made in China or Mexico, also while promising jobs to americans He ran a fraudulent university for which he is now under judicial investigation, taking thousands in tuition and offering no degree or valid education. He said he would remain a neutral party in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. And he didn’t immediately repudiate the endorsement of david duke and his KKK, until pressured by the media. Enough?
Just to clarify, I was asking if an OTD comes to feel it was wrong to separate completely from family/community/Jewish life, despite having conflict about religious practice; are they unable to return or try to reestablish connections because of having taken a public stand–not wanting the appearance of having changed their mind?
*taken a position*
Question for the OTD posters: To what extent does having taking a position, a stand against religious practice, prevent you from returning when you would otherwise want to? This is a question about being able to say, I was wrong, I really want to be part of the Jewish world. Is that a deterrent?
The telephone for Naomi Stavsky has a full mailbox and does not accept any more messages. Is it possible to donate via the chai lifeline website and designate for this purpose?April 22, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm in reply to: All Children Who Leave Our Community Should Pain Us Equally #947429
What are we supposed to get from the boston bombing? Any parallels for us in the story of those two brothers?April 18, 2013 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm in reply to: All Children Who Leave Our Community Should Pain Us Equally #947405
GAW–your words can be healing to those who feel they are too far gone to turn back, Wish there was a way to get your message out to them.April 18, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm in reply to: All Children Who Leave Our Community Should Pain Us Equally #947402
So if the sibs are treated unfairly in shidduchim, is there anyone taking up their cause and doing shadchanus specifically with these families?
Try googling “games for visually impaired”.
WOW, I don’t know if this will speak to you, but I just heard a shiur on theyeshivadotnet by Rabbi Jacobsen on parshas Pekudei entitled The Forgotten Souls, subtitled When Rabbi Akiva showed Moshe how to Appreciate the Alienated Jews. If you have an hour to listen I thought very worthwhile, especially his description of Rabbi Akiva’s viewpoint in his earlier life, before he became a Talmid Chacham. It made me shudder.
WOW: As this parsha wears on you may see that the only worthwhile efforts will be to help your children. Your anger, etc. over the injustices in the schools and community may feel right, but in the end will not help your children. Learning to be an advocate, so that you can effectively counter poor decisions made on behalf of your children, is a crucial albeit delicate skill, but can sometimes get the child through a hump that can otherwise be disastrous. You may have to go searching for a better school for your son, but you need to know how to speak to any hanhala in defense of your son, and indeed, in defense of keeping a Jewish Neshama on the derech hayashar. The right words can sometimes make a difference, I think. The situation is urgent and the menahel should be made to understand the urgency of not pushing a child over the brink, especially one who is already affected by a sibling who was pushed out. And it is not enough to grudgingly take a child in, but they should put out a special effort to understand and support the child, and help him flourish. Hatzlocha u’beracha, WOW.
WOW: still here and following your posts. Where do you think the “cause I want” comes from? Did that pre-date the approach of giving him everything he desires? If that approach is working well for you then please disregard my comment, but I have to wonder if it is really healthy for him. In any case, Purim and all the chagim and Yom Tov & Shabbosim are challenging. Sometimes it’s helpful when you daven to add all of those suffering with the same situation to your tefillas. I’m guessing there were many homes affected by this on Purim…Also just another reminder to tune in to the other children, Purim was different for them too, probably. Maybe take each one for a private discussion to let them talk about how they are managing the changes–not only does it help them articulate their pain but it shows you are still there as Mom, not completely absorbed by OTD.
Just a word of caution on the idea of finding a plumber/electrician etc. to hire as a chesed: very important to make sure the person who hires an OTD has his heart in the right place. Unfortunately, some will take advantage of the young person’s situation and cause more problems. If, however, someone with a good heart will hire him, it can go a long way to helping him mature and feel worthy.
kkls45: It gets sticky. On the one hand you want to show him your love and on the other hand you don’t want to validate his derech. When he is telling you about girls he is testing you to see how you will react. I think the best reaction is the truthful one; you can tell him you are sad that he is not following the derech of your family and that it is separating him. Any way you can express your love for him and desire to keep him part of the family is good, without actually giving the impression that you approve of what he is doing. I’m afraid I probably know the answer to this already, but are there any mentors/teachers or any adults who seems knowledgeable about this topic that you can speak to in order to know how to interact with your brother?
kkls45: You didn’t say whether you are a child, teen or adult, but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone; being the sib of an OTD is a huge challenge and as of this moment I don’t see any real effort to address this population in a meaningful way. From experience I can tell you that your steadfast love for your struggling sib is probably the best gift you can give to him. How you would express that love depends on your age and position relative to the brother (older/younger).
The debate moderator for tonight should be replaced, even at this late hour, since she publicly claims she will not honor her contract to remain neutral.
wow: if it’s not too late, try an approach that makes him think about the permanence of the piercing, that although it seems a good idea to him now, if he changes his mind later and hates it, he can’t undo a piercing.
Where is the proof, that the definition of proof set by scientists, professors, etc. the correct way to determine proof?
The Chancellor at the college where this man received his undergraduate degree said he was an honors student in a very rigorous course of study, one of the most difficult and challenging majors in the college. He was described as a student who was the “top of the top”. So the question begs to be asked, how does he go from there to being a mass murderer so quickly? He is described as a loner, and a highly intelligent loner is often a target for abusers. Another explanation might be that this type of individual is often a perfectionist and very demanding of himself. If he wasn’t succeeding in the very competetive atmosphere in his field in the graduate program, it may have caused him to snap.
wow–have you been to the mothers’ online forum? a lot of Israeli women post there too, it has a somewhat different focus than the news blog…….July 3, 2012 1:48 am at 1:48 am in reply to: WARNING for parents, dangerous mistake new People speak 5 #881951
Wow, thank you for pointing this out. I had recently bought the book for my child and am very shocked by that story. It brings out a problem for parents of children who love reading, sometimes we buy books and just because it’s from a sefarim store and written by a frum author, we trust that the book is safe and don’t check it thoroughly as we would a secular book. There are certain passages in that story which actually sound like they are promoting pill usage and are reminiscent of another culture. I think it calls for a discussion with my child, who has already read the book, to make sure an inappropriate message was not conveyed.
wow, I wrote a lengthy response to your last post, but the mods didn’t let it through.
I wish you much hatzlacha, and nachas from all of your children.May 23, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm in reply to: Video of Internet Asifa at CitiField – Full Video Feed for Satellite Locations #876237
The audio on the every recording I’ve heard/seen is very hard to understand. I still don’t have a clear idea of what was said at the asifa. Won’t someone post a transcript/translation of all of the speeches? I heard that some Rabbaim said to ban internet, some said no,only a filter, is this even correct? Very confusing outcome.
Years ago it was possible to look for employment using newspapers only. Today, most job searching is online. Is it really possible to look for employment without using the internet? I guess the search itself would be in the category of necessary for parnassah.
w/o/w: I am familiar with the situation, but unfortunately do not know anyone who came back after leaving for reasons of verbal bullying. I am only offering my knowledge gained from being closely involved for a period of time, and because you seem to be looking for this type of help. I do not know what will be the right approach for your family, I am just offering suggestions you may not have heard before. I would certainly defer to any expert who has more knowledge than I on this particular subject.
Shabbos/Yom Tov is one of the hardest struggles. Are you able to maintain an atmosphere of rest and peace at all for the sake of the rest of the family? I think certain rules must be followed in “public” areas at home, but I don’t know if you can win the battle of what goes on behind his closed door. You might have to set out a list of the melachas that you do not want to see in your home on Shabbos, so that you can keep some semblance of Shabbos decorum. But it might be a losing battle to try to enforce shomer shabbos at all times in all places for him. The Shabbos/Yom Tov struggle makes the biggest case for living on their own, and yet, when they go out on their own, they may abandon any vestige of self-control with respect to Shabbos restrictions. Do you have a family Rav that you speak to about Shabbos?
It may be a positive thing, that he is going through the motions to keep you happy. He is telling you he feels distant from yiddishkeit from within, which do you think would be better–to embrace the secular world completely in which case he loses his family, or to go through the motions in order to keep the family for now. So when he tells you that, instead of mourning the emptiness inside him, you can be grateful that he is still holding on to family. The charade won’t go on forever, but we can daven that in the meantime he can heal a little and find a path back.
If he is talking a bit now, there is a window of opportunity that wasn’t there before, and may not be there in the future. Take advantage, carefully, and keep the conversation going to help him unload some of this intense pain. Try to get past the crushing guilt in favor of the nurturing mode, this is what he needs.
If he was a victim of verbal bullying, he is probably very angry and hurt from this. I think it’s not good for him to hold it inside, sometimes there can be an explosion. If there is noone else he will speak to about what went on, then maybe you can broach the topic with him slowly and gently, let him know you agree that what happened was outrageous, and has nothing to do with his worth, that he is a valuable person. Maybe this can lead to a discussion of his strengths, and ultimately to a proactive direction for the near future.
w/o/w: Go easy on yourself. What did you really do wrong by putting your son in this school? You didn’t know how it would turn out; if you knew in advance you wouldn’t have sent him there. You had his best interest in mind when you sent him there, no? It will be easier for him to come to forgive and heal if you are able to tell him you didn’t want or expect the outcome that happened there, and that you really regret that he suffered so much there, but that you put him there with love and responsibility for him, and only good intentions. You can’t erase the suffering he had; going forward the focus must be on healing.
OhTeeDee: so, you left 20 years ago? Now in your 30’s? Am I understanding correctly? If so, I see you still read YWN–are there other ways you stay connected to the frum world?
wow. I want to try to explain my last post as I think I wasn’t clear. My purpose in writing it was to offer another perspective, based on long-term hindsight, but if you don’t find it helpful, then please ignore it.
I’m not suggesting that you should do anything to make yourself a korban. If we take a step back and look at the larger picture, we see a community with strict standards and rejection of those who don’t keep the standards, and a boy who is challenging those standards. But the boy cannot just be cast out of the community, he is a Jew and we naturally want to draw him in therefore there is anguish, both by the parents and others affected by his challenge. And there is a conflict, because of those who love him and want to see him succeed, they will not just cast him out, but find themselves torn between their affiliation with the community that condemns and the boy they love and care about. Because of this conflict, a conversation starts, and questions are asked: is the community right or wrong? should the boy be defended? who is responsible? etc as you see this 300+ thread which is being read by who knows how many more Jews. And what brought about this conversation? A boy’s challenge to what he perceived as being wrong in the community. As we believe all events come through the yad Hashem, then it would seem that Hashem has chosen this boy (and others) and this family (and others) to be the catalyst for a conversation (one of many) that may bring change to an attitude that needs correction. Again, if this perspective is not useful, then just ignore it.
Perhaps, wow, your family, and your son, were chosen by Hashem to be among the vehicles of change in your community. Most agree that the behavior of rejecting and ostracizing members of the community who are different or struggling is wrong. You also seem to agree. However many of us say this is the reality and we would rather go along with it, knowing it is wrong, than be a protester and suffer the consequences. Maybe Hashem feels differently, and wants the wrong to be set right. And just maybe these kids who won’t go along with what they perceive as wrong, are Hashem’s agents of change.
wow, do you think it will be news to your son if he sees the neighbors staring and gossiping about someone not exactly like them? Wouldn’t you think that this is one of the features of the community that he is running away from? How can anyone be protected from this? I would also suggest that you be very honest with yourself about how much you are worried about being stared at and gossiped about (yourself & the rest of the family apart from your son).
Really good point Sam2, and it reminds me that I know of several OTD who were able to return just by leaving the community they felt stifled in, and starting fresh in a new place, usually under the wing of a mentor of some type.
w/o/w: the big question. I hope some contributors here who have been off and returned will answer that one, but it is very important to ask
Just to clarify, I am in no way condoning the outlook that I described, and which belongs to many who call themselves MO, and I think it is sad that these young adults feel they have to resort to lounges and mixed dancing for entertainment.
The young couple is used to mixed dancing and it seems normal to them. They may agree to a separate dancing at their wedding to accommodate the guests who have a sensibility to this, although their inclination is otherwise. Still, in the social world of the couple mixed dancing is the norm.
What I mean to say is unless you really think you can win that argument without further bruising on either side, then maybe better to let it go. Where he is headed is hard to say; people turn around, many OTD have turned around and for different reasons, and some after a short time, some after a long time. But you do have to deal with what is in front of you now, and that is his desire to change the color of his shirt, as a statement of affiliation. At this point, prioritizing which issues are most important is probably a good idea.
When a kid goes OTD and the family lives in a community with strong standards, there is that “other” relationship that gets changed dramatically, and that is the relationship between the parents & siblings and the rest of the community. There is a lot to be said on this topic, and it should be discussed openly in my opinion, with hadracha from our leaders. In the meantime, it may be wise to accept that there will be a change in how you view yourself & family vis-a-vis your community if you suspect there would be strong disapproval, and again, clarify your priorities. One thing I have found comforting is to remember that not only our spouses are bashert, but also our children are bashert to us.
I mentioned before whether you think your son might be reading your posts, and whether you would want this. I think there are a lot of teenagers reading here.
It could be that one day in the future your son will express regret for his distant and tough demeanor toward you, especially as it sounds that you have an underlying closeness.
w/o/w: I don’t know if I can stress this enough: overlook the color of shirt. I know it’s a test for you, there may need to be a shifting alignment in that you may need to ignore the community dress standards for now in favor of avoiding machlokes in a very touchy situation. Some people say with children we must “pick our arguments” I think that holds true here. His clothing may deteriorate to something unrecognizable, undistinguishable from the non-religious Jews. But inside he is still your son, a precious neshama. Unfortunately those in the parsha a long time look back at the days of worrying about clothing, wishing that was still the biggest or only worry. Possibly you can casually mention to him something positive about why the men & boys wear white shirts, just as information without any pressure. It may help the other kids to have a discussion with them about why we have dress standards in our communities, take some time to prepare the discussion so it is conveyed as a very positive thing to keep the standard, while acknowledgeing that their brother has changed his way of dressing due to his confusion.
Feif un: Let’s review my post. I did not say all MO engaged in this behavior, and I certainly agree there are many serious MO. However, the scene I described definitely exists among a sizable contingent of MO, I know this as a fact. I’m not sure what part of that fact you view as an attack.
Still,the goal of his acting out may be an expression of his own hurt, and not to hurt you. In any event, it is not constructive for you to react defensively, and assume he is trying to hurt you. You can certainly tell him calmly about how you have been hurt by his actions, but it’s not worthwhile to hold on to the shock, anger, resentment, etc. that comes with thinking his goal is specifically to hurt you. If it’s possible, try to get past that feeling and keep the nurturing perspective which you already seem to do so well. In the end, you may well need the nurturing in order to heal the relationship.
one other note, regarding Shabbos and feeling like there are no “good days”, remember he is alive, and therefore there is always a chance of teshuva, if you know what I mean.
w/o/w: I hear. You don’t have to fall into the trap of believing he doesn’t care. He is your son, you are his mother, it’s likely he will always care. His outward presentation may not show this, but often outward appearances betray true feelings. He probably not only cares about not hurting you, but also cares that you approve of him. I know, hard to believe right now.
Just a thought on the walk you took to check things out. Sometimes even if you suspect or know what he is doing, the impact of seeing him do it is very powerful and can evoke very strong emotional reaction. On the one hand, you don’t want to be naive or in the dark totally about what he is doing, on the other hand, knowing all the details can be devastating. Since there was a confrontation of sorts, it might be worthwhile to try to talk it out, trying to convey your intentions in the most positive way, that you object to the smoking because you care about his lungs and health, that you want to make sure his internet use doesn’t do long term damage that will be difficult to undo, etc….
A lot of MO singles go to lounges where there is mixed dancing–it is so much a part of their life that having a wedding with separate dancing seems weird to them. Yet, still, they want a kosher chuppa, and their guest list often includes people who would not attend a mixed dancing event.
w/o/w: before you get weary from watching all the small (and not so small) signs and hoping fervently that it means he is moving back on the derech I would recommend strengthening and articulating your davening, but don’t latch onto every sign from your son. There could be a lot of back and forth movement, sometimes one step forward followed by two steps back. You may really get worn out from hanging onto every movement, We can’t really know the outcome of any of it—something that seems negative can be part of, or lead to, something positive in the future and vice versa. When he does come back for good, you will know it.
It was interesting in the video that the askanim did not seem to want to accept what the R”Y said….they kept re-phrasing the question about rejecting the children from the yeshiva, hoping to get the answer they wanted. The R”Y was already teasing them, “where should those children go, to America? to the moon?”.
I hope Chofetz Chaim Foundation will focus on GAIVA for this year’s Tisha B’av video.