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” to my mind this is not a bunch of people shmoozing at the water cooler; it is a focused discussion of a particular subject.”
Whoa, no comment necessary.
” If a poster were, in the context of this conversation, to launch into a scholarly conversation of the etymology of the phrase “tongue in cheek”, would you think that to be appropriate for the discussion?
For sure.
In truth I was at one point considering asking DY the difference between a simile, analogy and metaphor.
I had the impression you were criticizing myself particularly for not conforming to what you assumed the discussion to be. I don’t know where in the world I got that impression from, but I reacted to that criticism.
You now, by bringing this up and continuing the dialogue have diverted everyone’s attention from the specific issue that we must discuss. I refuse to continue this diversionary tactic.
Is this the first thread you’ve followed here?
They never thought about it. In their circles men and women shake hands and even hug. They assume shomer negia to be a chumra, practiced by the “ultra-orthodox”. They never learned the Halacha. They just behave as is customary among their peers.
Ps: there is no head moderator.
Is that so?
“The main discussion is about whether the possible risks of vaccines outweigh the benefits, not about whether it was vaccines or improved hygiene which proved more beneficial overall.”
As in every thread or any casual conversation, the discussion is about whatever the participants choose it to be.
You want to enforce debating rules?
Become head moderator.
No. I’m personally not interested in any debate or debate protocol right now.
I have no interest in applying any classical debating “tactics”
My interest is to point out ridiculous statements.
Such as:
“Measles was a huge killer of Children”
Or:
“Mumps was frequently Fatal”
Or:
“Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today”
Which in the context there was clearly implying that vaccines “200-300 years ago” were necessary for this non-event.
You’re interested in a debate. Go ahead. But I’m not planning to follow the rules you are setting up for posting to this thread.
Speaking for myself, although I understand and am sympathetic with the motivations of the anti vaccers, I consider their movement to be both incorrect and dangerous.
As for Mod 80, I have a feeling he shares my thoughts regarding this.
“within reason, obviously”
Holding hands, and placing an arm on a shoulder is within reason!!
Who’s reason, the goyish velt?
“According to them, it would be Assur”
Not necessarily, at least the falling asleep part.
There are Poskim who permit even recorded actual instrumental music for certain physical and psychological needs. for example: exercise for health, or depression. I would imagine if someone was used to falling asleep to music and found it difficult to do so without it, those Poskim would permit. I would think.
Avram:
Actually now that I forced myself to reread your discussion with health, I see you weren’t disputing that point at all anyway. You just wanted health to explain how removing thimerosal weakened vaccines.
Aha now I see.
Don’t expect an actual answer to that point.
You’re not going to get it.
As popa recently said regarding a citizen trying to dispute a traffic cops testimony in court: :” lol. Good luck with that”
Avram.
This is distasteful for me to have to say this. But I think health is right in this one point.
Although thimerosal was removed from ophthalmic solutions with very good reason. It seems the same isn’t true regarding its removal from vaccines.
It was found to be very effective and very safe (few minor potential reactions).
Seems it was removed under pressure from those claiming it was probably the causative factor in autism. And because it contains mercury.
It is ethylmercury as opposed to elemental mercury or methylmercury(the bad mercuries).
Em is rapidly metabolized and excreted. It is not retained as is methylmercury.
I don’t know the whole cheshbon, but it seems the main impetus to remove it was nonscientific pressure.
Sam2. It was clearly satire.
*Variolation
When I first started Davening, all I said was the Shema in the morning and in the evening. at home. I didn’t go to Shul yet. It took me a long time just to do that.
Later I started adding things little by little.
ZD.
Now you’re making sense!
Next time check out Google before you post, not after.
Measeles was a huge killer of Children
Mumps was frequently Fatal
Polio crippled many people forever
How do argue with someone who just completely makes things up.
Measles has never been a significant killer of children.
Death from Mumps is exceedingly rare. It only occurs sometimes in complicated mumps encephalitis which itself is uncommon.
Yes your statement about polio is true as everyone knows. That has nothing to do with your ridiculous statement that 1/2 of the worlds population died young from diseases that were eliminated by vaccines.
You know, you don’t have to post a comment on every issue in the CR.
If you’re not familiar with the subject, there’s nothing wrong with just reading the posts and not posting anything yourself. A lot of us do that. Nothing wrong.
Wow. Am I really unique in that I feel that I can trust my doctors?
No. I have great respect for and gratitude for my personal doctors and others that I know.
I believe, though, the Field of Medicine as an entity is highly competent technically but quite foolish when it comes to taking its conclusions as untouchable unchangeable Dogma, instead of premises to work with. The history of modern allopathic medicine is overflowing with very wrong premises which were absolutely irrefutable in their time, and the later physicians laughed at them. And then dogmatized their own wrong and dangerous assumptions.
I believe Arrogance is a major cause of this.
ZD.
No one here has suggested that vaccines are ineffective.
I love this thread.
There’s still a LOT more clarification and distillation of the various shitas here which could be done, especially if some of us were PhDs in Philosophy. And although (or maybe since) each side is so certain of their arguments,
Still this is such a nice illustration of the limits of human logic.
And my sweat simile was obviously not an attempt to prove ANYTHING. it wasjust an exaggerated humorous descption of arrogance.
And I didn’t take it “too far”.
An integral part of the complaint against some doctors is their refusal to see non vaccers. Any valid analogy has to have this as a component. Otherwise it is fatally flawed.
I’m beginning to think popa is just stirring the pot, as per his usual cute and endearing MO.
Yes it was flawed in the way I pointed out. And flawed in the way you pointed out. You brought the analogy. I was only interested in pointing out the flaw that benefitted my argument.
Hey Daas, it’s you who brought up that flawed analogy, not me.
“That would be an impossible requirement”
Of course. I was just correcting ubiquitous’ phrasing, which he was just a bit nonrigorous in choosing,
Because it is an important distinction which is not generally clear to most lay persons.
“Or your dental hygienist lecturing you about flossing”.
and then proceeds to tell you she refuses to clean your teeth until you start flossing
“anti-vaxer: If vaccines are so safe why cant they just prove it with a study once and for all.
Me: There have been dozens here they are…”
I think you meant; “studies that did not find any significant side effects of vaccines.”
Not studies that prove vaccines are safe. No such studies exist.
Yes you can put them on and take them right off
It would be nice to think while they are on that you’re wearing them because Hashem wants you to.
Great.
Sorry to pester you.
Don’t feel obligated to answer every reply.
I just wondered why you seemed to disappear after asking questions .
They are expressing a trust in the doctors that Hashem created for us and told us to listen to (for the most part).
(and you are probably well aware that’s not a quick question)
Great (sarcastic).
Now kapusta has totally taken over the thread.
Like she didn’t mean to (sarcastic)
Okiale
This is the same question you asked 2 weeks ago.
You received a number of replies.
In all of the fourteen threads you started in order to ask a question, you received numerous answers to all your questions.
It would be polite and thoughtful to at least acknowledge those replies, at least once.
I don’t remember it but it was pretty funny.
This doctor plumber comparison reminds me of a pretty funny joke.
“More like:
but it might cause your downstairs neighbor a lot of water damage.”
No one claims one unvaccinated child will significantly affect “herd immunity”.
You should better make an analogy like: sure your leaky faucet won’t impact our planet, but if everyone refused to fix their faucets. Then there would be a real problem.
And that’s certainly true. If enough people refuse vaccination we are seriously risking deadly outbreaks.
And I’m all for public policy strongly educating and pressuring people to vaccinate. As far as mandating it, I don’t know. Big philosophical, ethical, and constitutional questions there.
More like;
Mr plumber please check over all my plumbing. Fix the broken upstairs toilet. Let me know if you find anything else, and we’ll discuss it. But don’t fix the leaky kitchen faucet. I know I’m not a plumber but I did some research and I would rather let it leak.
Plumber: Not only could that leaky faucet cause problems later but it’s a waste of the planet’s resources. I refuse to have anything to do with you. Goodbye.
I heard Chasidim want to retain the water as mobico said because it is kodesh and precious to them.
Could be then a problem of hotza. I suppose.
“as long as you don’t dry any hair with a towel”
I believe that is permitted.
It’s not skita because the water is going from a solid to a solid. It’s even better than squeezing a lemon onto fish because you don’t want the water. It’s not libun because it’s derech lichluch.
I think it’s suggested to do it by gently patting.
“What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.”
We already have a massive epidemic of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, peripheral vascular disease, and hypertension stemming from that candy bar type behavior. It doesn’t make their blood boil.
The reason for the difference Avram points out is because in all those issues he mentioned the patient is essentially saying: you’re right of course, but I’m lazy or whatever. By vaccines they are saying: I disagree with you. Even: you’re wrong and I’m right. Nothing gets a typical doctors blood to boil more. It’s like heating water on Mt. Everest.
They also took thimerosal out of all ophthalmic solutions. I doubt that was politically motivated.
Thimerosal has a very high rate of allergic reaction, and is mildly toxic to corneal epithelium.
It was either that or “like pimples on a teenager”
But it’s Erev Shabbos.
Or maybe not.
I think I’ll just stick with arrogance and leave the others to Avram
Well kind of.
The arrogance exudes like sweat on a Marine.
The put downs and fear mongering are much more subtle and under the surface.
Super
I would say Avrams GENERAL impression of physicians IN GENERAL, as a common and pervasive mindset pretty much accords with my experience. Except that I haven’t found bullying to be that common and he neglected to mention trigger happy defensiveness, and of course, a profound arrogance. IN GENERAL.
There are plenty of very fine physicians Baruch HaShem!
note to Joseph:
May I assume that as I graciously answered your question, against my better judgement, you will field any further queries related to said post?
Tetanus is readily available by itself.
D and P are usually bundled (with T) but as I recall P is available by itself ( it’s been a while, could be that my kids were forced to get the D in order to get the P)
D and T are readily available together. It’s common for people to request these two as Pertussis is the one responsible for fever and subsequent seizures.
I don’t know if D is available separately.
“I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?”
Not much.
As you pointed out: “Between 2004 and 2015, 2 cases of diphtheria were recorded in the United States”
I wasn’t stating an opinion as to what I believe global public policy should be.
I was (briefly and partially) explaining, as Joseph requested, why my kids took a pass on that vaccine.
I left out an important principle. Diphtheria is treatable. Polio isn’t. Basically.