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Joseph,
According to the REMAH – the ban has no expiration date, see Pischei Tshuvah (link below) that many Rishonim that lived after 5000 quote and support the ban (like the RAN, Mahram M’Rotenberg, Ravyah, etc hence they all agreed thar it has no expiration date)
“http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14398&st=&pgnum=12
““I have been approached more than once to sign on a Heter”
You’re a lomdim miflagim and are able to Pasken?”
That is precisely my point….
“He needs a halachicly valid cause to divorce”
Joseph,Read my post regarding RSK. The “halachicly valid cause” nowadays has been stretched way beyond the realm of Halacha…
“Nu, ???? ????”
Hmm am not sure the ???? ???? indicates anything regarding knowing a bit Even Ha’ezer…Daas,
“He’s supposed to deposit a get with the issuing beis din which she can accept when she wants.”Agreed- something definitely does not make any sense, on other hand, who knows with some Rabanim…
I have been approached more than once to sign on a Heter (initiated by some Beth Din of who knows who__ ) , and I refused, based on Rav Shlomo Kluger’s psak in Sefer Alef L’Cha Shlomo (E”H:7) – see link below . I was just baffled how this process works. It is an entire joke. I wouldn’t suggest marrying anyone who has utilized the Heter before you do proper research that it was done adequately and based on legit reasons (or at least a true Posek Gadol) , for that person may still be transgressing a Cherim despite all signees.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1354&st=&pgnum=264
David –
“She suffers from extreme mental illness ‘”
If she is really suffering from an extreme mental illness then she might be in a position that she can not except a Get. i.e. a Shotah” and hence a Heter is 100% legit.
However,based on your comment this is not exactly the case. On the other hand, she might be qualified as one, and you should discuss it with a posek.
ZD,
” I belive there is also the requirement of the 100 Rabbanim being from 3 different continents”
It is three diff ‘countries’ not continents.See below link Responsum Chasam Sofer how to define three “Arotzos”:
According to the Noda beYahuda, the 100 “rabbanim” need to be Lomdim Miflagim and at least be able to Pasken” – and know the Halachas relevant to what they are co-signing- not just any guy from Kolel. Also, the original three initiating the Heter need to be Rabanim and Poskim Muvhakim that know the ins and outs of the situation. They need to acknowledge that the Heter is legit.
See below link for more:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14661&st=&pgnum=160Joseph,
“Rabbeinu Gershom set his Cherem to expire”
Not everyone agrees on that aspect (i.e. the auto 1000 yr ban).Also, a HMR can ONLY be utilized in specific situations and is invalid (according to many) if used just because one decided he wants to divorce his wife and she refuses.
Rabanim signing in itself does not negate a heter – it needs to be based on a valid reason mentioned in the poskim. As far as I have seen, true Gadolie Haposkim (like Rav Shlomo Kluger ZTL etc) rarely gave a Heter and in many cases nullified any heter.If you make the Heter availble for every case and simple to obtain the entire Cheren will have no effect.
Joseph,
You are really confusing “Manhig haDor” with ‘Posek Hador’. They are two separate issues.
Ef,
“Judaism is a middle eastern religion ”
“In the middle east where Judaism comes from the men were unquestionably in charge of everything”Hmm so in other words, each region was affected by their society and your ancestors were influenced by Islamic culture? So you have no concrete proof that this is proper Judaism other than that is how it was done by your tradition?
As Daas has pointed out, unlike all other A”Z fake regions – Judaism stands on its OWN – and there is enough in our holy Talmud and scriptures and sforim to properly know how women should conduct themselves.
Yes – we tend to be influenced by our surroundings, hence that it is our duty in Judaism to overcome all and seek advise by our Poskim and sages.
“Bias Ya’akov graduates fight with their husbands because they think the one minhag they learned in their school is torah lemoshe mi sinai and wont listen to her husband who knows that is not the case.”
Unfortunately, some Bais Yaakov girls nowadays are more knowledgeable in some tradition and halacha than many boys are. (after all it does say Al Titosh Toras IMACHA – not Avicho 🙂
As for your grandmother, she probably could barley read a pasuk…(correct me if i’m wrong)
GH,
“with respect to the “Hellbrander Rebbe”, did you make that up or is there really another such rebbe ”
Unfortunately, Helbrans affected many misguided souls read below link about his death:
Shlomo Helbrans, Lev Tahor Cult Leader Drowns In River While ‘Toiveling’ On Friday
However, he did have some “leading” qualifications and was somewhat a bit learned in a very very twist minded way. They say he was a very charismatic person and was able to convince the ignoramus BT masses to follow his cult.
Unlike this KID who is just playing “rebbe”, if he wants to call himself a Rashkbehag and Ba’al Mekubal let it be…Anyone who will follow him needs serious help in the first place.
@APY/Daas –
Ah, Baruch sheKevanty!
I looked it up and he basically says the above reasoning I mentioned, that by Nashim (i.e. singles – he clearly quotes the A”R reason of “k’gufo” and asks the above points: that it only pertains to married women ) we are not machmir to be Mehadrin like the Rambam’s shitah
He claims that the Ikar haDin is like the sefardim do, but we are machmir like the Rambam as a per mere “minhag” that all light, and thus the very “minhag” when initiated was never applied to Nashim in the first place , the reason they are not machmir (especially if not like the Rambam who holds Nashim are incl in Mehadrin – see Pri Chadash) he uses the term that they are ?????? which is not at all the term of k’gufo’, it means that their very Chiyuv is based on “Af” hen Hayu BeOso haNes’, hence we are not Machmr on the “Minhag” to do the other shitah of Mehadrin.
Makes perfectly sense now why Nashim are exempted from lighting their own.Here is the link:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1305&st=&pgnum=139
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1305&st=&pgnum=140I always say, most questions and difficulties are solved by looking up the sources. May it be Rashi quoting a Midrash or a Toras Kohanim etc. or anything else, you need to look up the source to find the true meaning.
APY –
“the mishna berura is clear. it means a persons wife. ishto kigufo doesnt refer to a father/daughter, sister/brother relationship. but, he is free to drei a kup. its a slow day today.”
He must have skipped Siman ????Read my last posts links (pending now) – it is very clear that it is indeed pertaining to single girls. (Though it is a total different reason.)
Case closed!
APY,
However, he uses the term of: ?????? ?????? – Not k’Gufo so i’m not so sure, but based on the sevara I don’t see where there is any “?????? ” to any Ish if not married.I will have to lookup the ???? ????? inside and see…
“is there a chiyuv for a family member to follow a family minhag shtus that goes against the shulchan aruch? maybe.”
APY,
The above minhag is stated in many poskim so its certainly legit and not a “shtus”. As for the Mechaber, he is generally speaking about the very Chiyuv, which means if there is no man around the Isha certainly has a chiyuv to light, it is no less then Kriyas haMegilah and is not excepted from Zman Gramah as per the Gemara as being part (or the main) of the ‘nes”.Daas:
As for the Mishnah Berurah, I’m not so sure what the meaning is:
???”? ??”?: ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ?????? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????
Is he speaking about a single girl? I assume it is pertaining to a married that is ?????? ??????. Otherwise, why is a single “?????? “? Where do we find such a savara?Or perhaps we say on the halacha of “mehadrin min haMehadrin to be Yotzei the shitas haRambam we don’t apply that ‘chumrah’ to women, and they can rely on the other shitos.
“Are you learning that the Rabanan hold that it didn’t have a din of a menorah at all? If so, why didn’t they just say that instead of saying that it wasn’t wooden, rather tin?”
I would say that is exactly what they are intending to by saying it was “Shpudin” as in Tosfos :?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????
that the fact that it was Etz l’fi R”Y renders an Etz Menorah as a Menorah and is included in Lo “S,’ so the Rabanan dispute that by saying the Etz then had no Din Menorah as it was only simple Glmy Matchas that are not mekabel Tumah etc..Again, that is how the above wants to say it (based on the Psikta), simply learning, we would say they are just disputing the fact that it was pure wood..
” However, then the gemara in r”h is shver, as it is clearly talking about shpudim, and very clearly talking about something that has a din of a menorah (as otherwise there cannot be a problem of lo saásun iti)”
That is not how the Rogatchover understood it – what you are saying pertains to the original memra of ??? ???? ?? ????? who upholds that Etz is included in Lo Sa’asun but in the answer ..!????? ?? “??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? they completely disagreed that it had any Din of a Menorah, and that is the maskonah l’fi the Rogatchover, I don’t think the simple pshat is like that.
“I would have thought that in a pashut reading of the Rogachover that they only lit one ner, on one shpud, per night, which had a din of the ner maáravi, ”
That is what he is saying, for more see the 2nd link I posted. He explains there are three separate ‘g’darim’ in the Hadlakos H’menorah:
a) Avodah/Maracha (which pertians to the Ner Hamaravi and can only be done by a Kohen and is kosher w/o a Menorah)
b) Hadlakos Haneros (kosher even if lit by a Zar and needs a Menorah etc)
c) The very act that the candles should be burning (Rav Chaim of Brisk also says the geder).He explains it is based from the Toras Kohanim that has three separate l’mudim that it is docha Tumah and Shabbos – that each g’eder has its own limud
“we have 2 seperate maamarim here”
I can assume so, as the p’sikta says it was 8, whereas the Gemarah says “7” shpudim…
“Side question (#18): l’fi the same Tos from before, how did they clean it out if it was golmei kli machteches and therefore not shel prakim?)”
In this case, they may turn over the menorah/Shpud …no? Also, the might have thinned it out that it should be flexible on top, as with the Menorah…
Uber,
l’fi this Rogachover they didn’t use it for more than one day anyway”
Uber – if you read the first link Halacha Bes – he is clearly going according to the P’sikta that states there were EIGHT shpudim, “shel Barzal”.
He is basically explaining why 8 and not 7 (like the gemarah), he “quotes” the Gemorah in A”Z (43a) saying that there was “no Menorah” at the time (it is basically the same gemorah as in R”H and I figure it is his understanding as well, that according to the answer of the gemarah ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? “??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? that it is implying that it had no status of a Menorah – simply understood – it is saying that it really wasn’t “Etz” and was only ????? ???? from outside and metal on inside, and thus you are permitted to make a private Menorah out of wood )
So he says the 8 were for the purpose of the Ner haMarovi and each night a diff Shpud was used. As per the Gemarah there were only 7 not 8, hence there is a total diff pshat.
I need to read the other link again, and see the back and forth correspondence, perhaps the writer (who was a goan in his own) points out anything…
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15094&st=&pgnum=428&hilite=
I found a ????? on the above Gemorah I mentioned, regarding eating the donkey that came down from heaven:
“???? ????? ?????? ??????, ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????, ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????????, ??????? ????, ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???. ??? ???? “??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????” ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????
I wonder if the above statement
??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? can be applied to the above unnatural process and thus will be proof that is permitted. The way I understand it, he is basically saying that the above ????? created via bacteria and mold etc is all part of nature, but something that is ???? ????? ?????? is a diff category.Speaking about the Shpidin, The Rogatchover Gaon wants to say pshat that according to the Psikta that says it was 8 shpidin, they were really not mekayim the Mitzvah of the Menorah (as per Bais ha’Bchirah) it was just the mitzvah of Hadlakah. See the two links below. He explains that they lit the Ner haHaravi every day with a fresh shpid as the first one became Tamah being that once used it has a status of a “kli”…
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40659&st=&pgnum=76
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15094&st=&pgnum=428&hilite=
Uber,
Don’t forget Tosefos there:
?? ????. ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ????’ ?????? ??? (????? ?? ??. ???)
As we can see it was all a beDeavod..
“then clearly they are both kasher, so how can one of them be “wrong”?”
They are indeed kosher as we do not find anyone mentioning the shape of the branches are me’akov. See Rambam below (scroll thru all Halachos in that perek) – there is no mention at all about the shape.
http://hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?rid=7695
The issue in concern is only the fact of how it really was in the mikdash.
Although, it is still hard to understand why the Rambam did not mention in sefer haYad how it was shaped, but in case if it would be posul the Rambam would have certainly mentioned it.As in general shailah, The Gemorah in Sanhedrin (59b) reads:
?? ?? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? (????? ??, ??) ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?’ ???? ??’ ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????:
I would assume based on the above Gemorah that the reason it is mutar is entirely based on the fact that it is ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????, meaning, that anything else even if it is unnatural it has the same status as natural regarding Tumah etc. As after all a donkey is still a donkey.
However Rashi says:
?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? : ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???:From Rashi’s added words :
“- ???? ????? ??? – ??? ???? we can say that Rashi is implying that being that it was unnatural it has a status of “??? ????? ??? –However, as Ubiq pointed out, the fact that it is taken and grown out of a natural’s cell might give it a diff status, although we might argue that is completely as ‘Panim Chadashos’ and is entirely a diff Min, or perhaps it has the status of ‘Yotzeih Min Hatomeh’ etc as well…
In any case, it is indeed a fascinating shailah with many angles to ponder…
Avi,
“There will have to be a pesak on this”
I recall the Tzitz Eliezer wrote about this years ago… I will have to look it up.
Avi,
Sefer Yetzirah as per the Talmud in Sanhedrin is basically totally Artificial.
The very same issue pertains to Chanukah – there is the famous question (it is repeated in the name of Rav Chaim of Brisk) about the Nes on Chanukah, according to the ones that the vesel refilled itself with new “miracle” oil – how can it be used for “Shemen Menorah” – after all it is not “shemen Zayis” , it is rather some artificial “miracle oil” which is not “Olive Oil”.
Some dispute the above from the Gemora in Menachos regarding Omer – wheat that came through a Nes, that the problem is not the “miracle” but rather, that it is not from Eretz Yisrael…
“How do you deal with the fact that his son says the Rambam held that the branches were straight?”
Daas,
I too was under the same impression (as on my earlier posts…) that that is the definitely how Rav Avrhom was learning. But the above post does have some valid points. Please refer to this page:He is basically saying that “straight and not “b’alchson” does not pertain to the shape of the very branches, rather, it is to reject the pshat that says that the branches came up kind of like a Shabbos candelabrum / ?????? / Leichter we have…
“This just corroborates Chabad’s argument that we’re paskening from archeology instead of Rishonim, which would be wrong.”
Nev,Sorry. You are misreading the posts, you should read the write-up that Daas posted in entirely .
In summary –
a) The Curved branches has been the shape that all Klal Yisrael has identified the Menorah with — for the past 2000 yrs plus.
b) There are definitely many Rishonim and Gadolei M’forshei Achronim (Ibn Ezrah, Maseh Choshev etc) supporting it.
c) The very Rambam mentioned can be interpreted in diff ways, that still does not conflict the above mesorah.
d) Archeology supports the above pshatim, the minhag and all Rishonim that uphold that it is indeed curved.
Note – if the Rambam would have been 100% clear that it is diagonally shaped you would have had a point. Now that all evidence points the other way, we assume the pshat in Rambam is not like Chabad understood.
“Does anyone know who wrote the ??? ??????”
Uber,If you are referring to the above link, its a Journal (monthly or quarterly) with many contributing Rabanim, scholars , manuscripts, etc. You can find most of it on Hebrewbooks. The one I posted has two write-ups on the above topic. One is pro and one is against. (just click on the link and scroll further…)
If you are referring to a Sefer, there are few. One that comes to mind is from Rav Yisrael Salanter.
“All I am saying is that according to Rambam (and as explained by his son R Avrohom) ”
Put,
Instead of going around in circles, just read my earlier posts. The Rambam can be interpreted in many ways. Read the link i posted above. I will re-post it.:I am not disputing that there is something to the Shitah that it was diagonal, but given the above pshatim and the fact that almost every drawing, sculpture, mosaic engraving etc. that Klal Yisrael has had for the past two thousand years plus shows curved branches, you should rather say a different pshat in the Rambam that will support the above. see the below link for other pshatim:
Shuali,
”
but has anyone thought to ask “the Lakewood Rabbonim”?Why would someone bother asking, we do not live there, nor would it help. And lastly, which Rav exactly would you ask?
There is no Rav who would have the guts to say: yes! it is mutar and officially back it…Put,
It’s not Titus menorah, rather it is practically almost every archaeological finding, points out to be round branches. Let it be in Caro geniza, coins, 2000 year old shuls in Tiveria, Tzipori, Jerusalem, all mosaic drawings and cavings are round. and is thus consistent with how all Klal Yisrael has known it.I understand there are some other shitos, but deciding so based on one pshat (which can very well be debated – refer to my last link I posted) against overwhelming evidence that keeps on piling up, is absurd.
Especially if that is against how all have known it.
Daas,
I came across the following ????? ??? ???? ?’ ?????? ????????
At the end of Drush ??:???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?’ ??? ????
???? ???? |??????? ?”? ?”?| ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????????? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ?????
?! ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???, ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????, ?? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? |???? ???”?| ??? ???? ??? ????
?????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???
??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????
You,
Regarding the Bais Av unknown – it was definitely the Chalitzah issue. Some say he retracted his psak. See below link:http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20408&st=&pgnum=700
In any case, I don’t know understand why it should effect his status as much, he was basically trying to find a heter for the Russian stranded agunos – you do not have to agree to it, but he is entitled to his opinion.
In another way it shows his Gaones as well, he did not fear anyone.
He basically felt no one really disputed his heter , as you can see from his response to the Ragatchover etc….Uber/Litvish:
“So all the other sources of curved branches don’t count? ”
They sure do – as that is how all Klal Yisrael has identified it for the past thousand years, as all the coins and many manuscripts indicate.
Read the below link how he disputes the above psahtim and how he tries to say pshat in the words of Rabenu Avrohom:
Uber,
Rabenu Avrohom Ben HaRambam in his pirush on the Torah, (Parshas Trumah) clearly says that it was like his father had drawn – NOT round…see below link (Ois 32)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40223&st=&pgnum=399Also, read the following link:
It covers the topic well. However, read it having in mind that the author is Lubavitch, and thus trying to prove the Rebbe correct.
iac…
“R’ Aharon Kotler TZATZAL was acknowledge as the Gadol Hador and he referred to R’ Moshe Feinstein TZATZAL as the Poseik Hador.”
Many are not aware before Rav Moshe was The Posek, many referred to Rav YE Henkin (more known as the directer of Ezras Torah) as the prime Posek of America, many psakim we follow are based on his psak. One that comes to my mind is opening refrigerators on Shabbos. However, he rarely got involved in any public hashkfah issues.. Another Posek was Rav Yonasan Steif (more known by Chassidim/Hungarians)
” At that time the leading poskim in EY were R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach TZATZAL and R’ Eliyashiv TZATZAL.”
They only became known later, at the time in EY there was Tchebiner Rav, Rabbi Shimon Aharon Polansky known as the ‘Tepliker Rav’, (another example of an unknown Posek Hador – who was long forgotten – I bet you there are probably one or two people reading this that have ever heard from him, in fact Rav Elyashiv got semicha from him ) Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank.
Joseph,
One that comes to mind is Rav Shalom Cohen – Leader of Shas
Joseph,
One Gadol for klal Yisrael has rarely ever happened, one of the reasons is technically, each region had it’s own. The GR”A was mainly excepted in Lithuania and parts of Russia .
At the same time in Poland it was the Noda beYehuda as Gadol.
Distances and borders were a major role in not even knowing some Gadolim, Just to show how the distances effected, the Shagas Aryeh who lived in Lithuania replies in a responsum written to the Bais Efrayim in regards to a Noda BeYehuda he quoted, “I never saw or heard of such sefer nor of the author”, at the very same time when the NB was posek hador in his part of the world.
On the other hand, the Chida never mentions the GR”A but he mentions many others of Europe like the above NB.Chocom,
“surprised none of you blamed the Lubavitcher doctor that was caring for him, for his death.”We tried but the doctor swears he is “still alive”!
Gadol,
“gadol hador” versus the “leader of our generation”Don’t confuse the two; Leaders still need to be great in learning as well.
Look at it like this, while someone like the Rogatchover was probably the greatest Gaon of the pre-war generation, but Rav Chaim Ozer of Vilna was still the Leader.
Winnie,
True, he was the last ‘European’ gadol..
I heard a while ago that Rav Chaim was mispalel every day on Rav Shteinman’s health so that he shouldn’t have to take on the Hanhagah..Whats with Rav BM Ezrachi?
Men,
“Hashem has a need to give”
Chas Ml’hazkir – the very word and concept of “need” (as explained in all sforim) pertains only for mortals…I don’t know about “leader” but Rav Chaim is no doubt Gadol Hador. He was sure as much or more of a gaon than Rav Shteinman…
Joseph,
I sure thought you would say Rav Shmuel A. Shlita@Daas,
“The Gemara actually says “noach lo l’adam shelo nivra”, and misquoting it is a grievous error.”Well said, Daas!
actually I found someone quoting the Sefer haBris that says pshat in the above machlokes as the following:??? ????? (?”? ???? ?”?
?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????, ???? ?? ????? (???? ??? ????????) ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?’ ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???, ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??, ??????? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? (??) ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ?? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????,
?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?”? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????:
???? ?? ?? ?”? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ????? ???, ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?’ ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? (?????? ?’). ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???.
?? ??? ?????
In any case, he says that no way is it to be taken as literal.Also see Marsha at the end of Mesechet Makos.
Regarding ???? ?????? when you just pick and choose one Chumra as a Baal Nefesh –
I happened to come across the following Terumas haDeshen in Ch 1, regarding davening Maariv right after Plag (though we don’t pasken like that, but the concept is the same – that one that is Machmir has to be consistent and if not “?? “ ?? ????? ???? ??????:)??? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?”? ????? ?? ?????. ???? ?????? ????”? ??????? ?????”? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ??-
???? ?????? ?”? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?”? ????? ?? ?????. ???? ?????? ????”? ??????? ?????”? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?”? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?”?.
Here the Ramchal explains clearly that even after the Chet – Hashem gave the world a chance to once again go back and return to its former status:
??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? (???? ?’ ??? ?’). ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???”?. ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??’ ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??’ ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????. ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??’ ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????.
???? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ????”?. ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????.
????? ???”? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??????. ??? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????.
???? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ???????. ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??? ????”? ???”?.
– ??? ?’ ??? ??? ? –
Later he explains how Hashem opted to correct the Chet through Avrohom and Klal Yisrael…All this indicates not like the pshat above, the Chet was not intended/setup at all in any way.
Shlucha:
I highly suggest you (and him/her) should learn though the Sefer Derech Hashem it is basic Emunah that every Jew should know, and I’m sure it will answer many of his issues.
It is available with translations and on-line as well.
Just google “??? ?”Shlucha,
“I wasn’t going to tell him it’s not true. He learned it himself, and I’ve heard it to. I would love to see the source inside ”Whether there is a source or not is not the issue – we are not responsible for every theory and half-baked drasha out there which interferes with any Emunah or the excepted pshat.
I will quote what the Ramban once said in his famous debate in Spain, in regards to Agadaic Midrashim, the Apostate kept on bringing up that Moshiach “was already born on T”B”, and thus already arrived etc. on that the Ramban replied as the following:
???? ?????:
???? ???? ????. ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????, ?????? ??? ??. ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????. ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???.
??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????,
???? ??? ???”???, ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ????.
????? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ?????? ?????, ?? ????? ?? ???”? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??????, ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????.??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???”????. ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? (???), ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???, ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????.
– ????? ????”? –
(??? ????)It goes without saying, that we absolutely do not have to believe anything you just randomly hear…
“mestama, did not believe in G-d.”
We don’t know that, most secular Jews before the war did believe in G-d, and so are most chilonim nowadays.
There is a debate if a ???? for one or more mitzvahs is considered a Mumat l’Kol haTorah Kulah. But one who worships A”Z and is a ???? is certainly a Mumar.
His halachik status was no doubt:
??????? ??? ????? according to all.Somehow we find in all poskim the status of one who is ???? ?? ??? in a different category than just a chiloni. We don’t sit shivah for him etc.
Mdd,
“Gaon, Hertzl was born, as we are told, into a secular European family- meaning they didn’t believe in G-d or kept anything and didn’t mind intermarring. It is not, Halochically speaking better than conversion. And again, bear in mind the circumstances of his upbringing.”
With all due respect, there is a major difference in all aspects; from a Halachik perspective and even from a secular perspective, between someone who is just a Ba’al Averia and between someone who is an official Apostate / Meshumad.
Converting was a line that almost every Secular Jew refused to cross…especially mass conversion.
You remind me of a story, there was once a Meshumad who lived St Petersburg in the times of the Czarist rule, who was the official censor of all Jewish Seforim (as only non-Jews were permitted to live there and have a position) . He was actually very helpful in allowing many Seform to be printed. N. Biyalek once came to him with one of his writings and he absolutely refused to permit it, claiming there was ‘kefira’ there, showing him what he meant. Bialik brushed it off saying that it is based on Zohar and that he doesn’t really understand what he meant etc.
On that the Censor replied: “Listen, I know Zohar back and forth as I was the very one that censored it, so please don’t try that trick on me”…
As a last try, Bialik asked him: well, aren’t you a Christian/ meshumad – so what do you care?
Upset – he replied: Hey, you can accuse me of anything, but that is the last thing I will do – trade Judaism for something that dumb as Christianity…(obviously, he converted to obtain the position)…Asides that, we have the old klal of Rav Chaim of Brisk: Nebech an Apikoras iz OIch An Apikoras” and in sense of Avoda Zara everyone would agree to that Klal.
Shlucha,
“But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So he’s wondering why He chose such a system?”
What do you mean “knows”? Huh how would he know that as a “fact”? Why in the world would anyone teach him that as the simple way to understand that. It sure is not – even the Kabalistic world like the Ramchal in Derech Hashem does not say that. He explains that as something that was derived and happened as a result as a human flaw, and Hashem waited until Avrhom Avinu that the human race should correct it…
Even the Chabd Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ras” would have been without the Chet:
“. ??”? ???? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ?”? ?”? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ??’. ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??”? ?”? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??”? ???”? ??”? (????? ?’) ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??’. ????? ???? ????? ??’. ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ??’ ???? ???? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ????? ??’. ???”? ??? ???? ??? ?”? ???????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???.
The above indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…
In any case, can you please post where the source is?
“Rav Kalisher was niftar prior to the advent of political Zionism. To call him a Zionist is a lie.”
Joseph, agreed. It is rather that Zionizm was an off-shoot of his ideas i.e. Chovevei Zion of settling the land etc. Same goes for Rav Shmuel Mohilever ZTL…