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ZDad, you can check the historical records and see that 1967 was, in fact, not a miracle, but that’s besides the point and does not CH”V make Rav Yaakov a Zionist.
benignuman, no.
But I assume you never read the severe things that other gedolim said about Rabbi Kook (in particular) and Rabbi Soloveichik and their positions. In the case of Rabbi Kook, they banned learning from his works. As for Rabbi Teichtal, he was not a Zionist, and his hakdama says as much.
Regarding the others, assuming you are being truthful that they are Zionists, are you saying that any of these other Rabbis were equal in greatness to the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, Rabbi JB Soloveichik’s own predecessors like the Brisker Rov, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler and others?
ROB, I highly doubt you would abandon your A”Z even if I did give sources, speaking of blowing smoke…
Anyways:
Rav Elchonon’s quote is from Ikvisa DiMishicha, as I wrote.
The Brisker Rov’s shita is from Uvdos ViHanhagos LiBeis Brisk.
Speaking of sources, MDD, I presume you are using the well-known forgeries from Rabbi Kasher as your source? Rav Aharon Kotler who was a member of the moetzes and was there, as well as others like the Chazon Ish and many others, are on record as being vehemently against Zionism.
What are your sources that any Gadol was pro-Zionist, CH”V?
Besides, who of their stature wrote that Rav Elchonon and the Brisker Rov were wrong?
Again, the Zionists have no valid answers.
Sam2, instead of “taking extreme umbrage” (which I doubt) at something nobody never said, it would be better to learn the sugya and see just how inapplicable this mitzvah is, even according to the Ramban, bizman haZeh.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman, in Ikvisa diMishicha, said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara (biShituf).
Zionists have no valid answers.
Sam2, please read my post before commenting on it.
GAW, nobody said that CH”V the Ramban is not valid. The question is if/how applicable this mitzva is today.
As I wrote, Rav Moshe said it’s not applicable to Jews outside E”Y.
benignuman, point taken. But denying any part of the Torah is kefirah, even if your excuse is wanting to fulfill Yishuv HaAretz beyond its halachic bounds.
Just Emes (for MDD, too):
(continued)
But that’s “only” one of the oaths. The other oath, of being meoreir the ahava before its time, was still violated even if it would have been with everyone’s permission, which it wasn’t.
Also, Google (no quotes) “Rabbi Reisman Zionism”.
“…most of the Torah rabbis opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in our ancient homeland…As Rabbi Reuven Grozovsky wrote, the ideals don’t change. The ideal of sticking to the three oaths remains [even after the founding of the State].” And that’s before he gets to the Satmar Rov’s position.
As to the end of your post, “many jews are not attacked outright even in other nations because of fear that Israeli teams of agents will come after them”, this is laughable. Jews in other countries have, on occasion, Hashem Yishmor, suffered anti-semitic attacks. Have you read about Zionists knights in shining armor rushing in to save them?
Aderaba, our gedolim have also written that Zionism has given non-Jews further “ammunition” in their hatred against Jews.
Regarding the Holocaust, read what the Zionists admit about their actions/inactions during that terrible time.
For example:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
Just Emes:
I like your screen name, but unfortunately your post doesn’t agree with it.
The Zionists did not at all “go up peacefully”, not in any dictionary. Nor was their ascent with the world’s permission. The UN itself wrote that the Zionism took the Balfour declaration to a far greater extent than what they allowed. Besides, the Zionists didn’t even stick to the partition plan, which the Arabs anyways rejected, so there was no permission.
Also, it’s not wise to believe Zionist propaganda about how the Arabs suddenly swooped in or about anything else, for that matter. Do you think Ben Gurion was stupid and didn’t know what would happen? The Arabs had been protesting and worse for years already. The Zionists had no permission from anyone to take any part of Yerushalayim. This is ridiculous. Call a spade what it is. Zionist wars were a clear violation of the oaths.
Naftush, your post seems strange.
Read what the Zionists wrote and admitted regarding their activities during WW II.
See here, for example:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
Regarding A”Z, the gedolim hold that Zionism is A”Z.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman, in Ikvisa diMishicha, said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
Just reading these boards should make it fairly obvious that Zionism is A”Z.
Also see Matisyahou’s second post here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/still-fuming-at-rabbi-belsky-and-mishpacha/page/2
Nobody can reasonably argue with these (Brisker Rov, Rav Elchonon HY”D) and other Torah greats like Rav Aharon Kotler and the Chazon Ish? Zionists have no answers.
But why does it trouble you that people choose to recognize these errant ideologies and theologies for what they are?
Avi K, you still haven’t explained the kefira in your previous post.
As to your latest post, of course nobody denies Yishuv HaAretz is a mitzva. The question is if/how it’s applicable nowadays.
For example, Rav Moshe wrote that it’s not obligatory to live in E”Y.
Many gedolim could have “made aliya” but did not. Some even explained why they chose not to.
So, although nobody is taking E”Y out of the Torah, Zionists do distort it and elevate it beyond the other mitzvos, as I wrote.
Again, you still haven’t explained your kefira from your previous post.
writersoul, I agree with you that one could argue that classical is no different. But my understanding is that classical music is different.
I’m obviously not trying to be mattir anything that may be assur, so nobody should take this as halacha liMaaseh.
MDD, I had already agreed to disagree with you, but you still haven’t shown how this position is “extreme”, other than to Zionists. Regardless, this is the mainstream Torah position among those who have not been hoodwinked by Zionism. I won’t bother you with further examples.
Avi K, you seem to be so blinded by Zionism that you actually wrote:
“Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz.”
Any objective high school student could tell you that this assertion makes no sense.
First of all, Yishuv HaAretz is anyways a machlokes if/how applicable it is nowadays.
Secondly, by your writing that Yishuv HaAretz is “first of all” mitzvos, you are showing how your Zionism not only has been grafted on to, lihavdil, your observance of the mitzvos of our holy Torah but that your Zionism has taken precedence over, liHavdil, our Torah.
This is also known as kefira.
Avi K, none of these issues in Israel has to do with chevlei Mashiach or frum Jews. This has to do with one thing only and that is Zionism.
Health already mentioned why your idea would not work; so it has nothing to do with Frum Jews.
Zionists also don’t like our faith and have taken concrete steps to CH”V change it into, lihavdil, Zionism; ask the Teimanim, for instance. From more recent events, just for example, watch online the video of the Israeli “Chidon HaTanach” that just took place, where they turn Tanach into a game show subject and have the obligatory recital (sung by women, of course) of the heretical Zionist anthem to close out the evening, right after Netanyahu proclaims the usual Zionist fantasy that Tanach, is CH”V the basis for their right to Eretz Yisrael and the State of Israel. All the Zionist trampling on the Tanach as they make such a show out of that same Tanach is somewhat like Achashveirosh’s seudah featuring the kelim of the Beis HaMikdash.
So even if American frum Jews, by subjecting themselves to the Zionists, Zionist shmad and all the Zionist security issues and other problems by moving to Israel, would still remain frum (and this is not at all a sure thing), it would anyways not help your cause, as Health wrote.
But even if “making aliya” would help, the first priority of a Jew is serving Hashem as best as he can, not “making aliya”. Misguided “Religious Zionists” may hold otherwise, and this large error is unfortunate.
Regardless, Zionist problems are their own fault, not at all “the fault of frum Jews”.
Similarly, regarding your assertion that this is due to “chevlei Mashiach”, it is, as mentioned, the Zionists who made this mess; not, lihavdil, Jews and Judaism. This mess, therefore, has nothing to do with Mashiach, frum Jews, or anyone else other than Zionists for Zionist folly and resultant outcomes, Hashem Yishmor.
Sam2, I don’t recall the sources now (and I’ll try to find out where that idea comes from), but I assure you (FWIW) that I did not make that up. To the best of my knowledge, music is an expression of the soul. I didn’t say people intentionally put their soul into it, but that is what music is.
Also, ask people who know music well (not people who just listen to music) if they can determine anything about a Jewish singer from their music.
I don’t know why, but I think that Classical music may not a problem in this regard, but I am not sure. (Yanni or other New Age IS still a problem.)
Regardless of this admittedly more esoteric reason, you should not listen to non-Jewish music because of its more easily understood influences, subtle (or not so), though, those influences may be.
mdd, I’ll respect your assertion that “ein ze mikomah” regarding the 3 shvuos though I disagree with both that assertion and your implied position on the matter regarding “Religious Zionism”.
Regarding your comparing murderous Arab rock attacks in Israel vs not being able to wear a yarmulke in parts of Europe, I first of all don’t see what the purpose of the comparison is.
Besides that this comparison is pointless, in my humble opinion, it’s anyways almost no contest (Israel is far worse).
The ability to wear a yarmulke in the streets is almost worthless given the myriad security and other problems in Israel that are the bloody costs of Zionism.
As we discussed, it’s not “only” rock attacks that Israel has problems with, though those alone are far worse than having to wear a secular hat over the yarmulke as in parts of Europe. Israel also has a mandatory draft, constant battles against other types of terror, the potential for missile attacks that Israel cannot adequately defend against even with its anti-missile batteries, etc. Hashem Yishmor.
These and more do not apply to Europe, only to Israel.
(I find it pathetic that people even try to defend the utter disaster that is (secular) Zionism. If your theology (i.e “religious Zionism”) calls for the tens of thousands of Jewish human sacrifices that were needed for this A”Z, then I understand you are defending an A”Z that you were mislead into believing and I’ll also try to show you how you were mislead.
But when people try to defend secular Zionism by touting how you can dress like a Jew in the street in (parts of) Israel, as if according to the Jewish faith even a drop of Jewish blood may be spilled CH”V for that, and at the same time people ignore all of Zionism’s myriad problems and disastrous consequences to Israeli and world Jewry, Hashem Yishmor, I find the whole thing absurd.)
MDD: I disagree with your accusation of falsification and with your assertion that those chilukim, including the missile defense chiluk, are “shvach”. In fact, there is another story on YWN, today, about another rock-throwing “incident”. As I said, this is not normal.
You could try to answer those arguments instead of taking the easy way and dismissing them out of hand, which is a good tactic when you have no answer.
Even the Zionists struggle (unsuccessfully) to answer the multiple problems with Zionism from the gimmel shevuos, as I noted earlier. Speaking of propaganda, I’m not sure why you are resorting to cheap name-calling instead of addressing this substantively.
If you want to stop the discussion here then I certainly understand, as there is really nothing that can kasher the A”Z of Zionism.
Ask your LOR before you decide that any non-Jewish music is muttar.
Music is an expression of the soul. As non-Jews are different than Jews in this regard, no matter how moral and upstanding the non-Jew may be, a soul-to-soul musical monologue by a non-Jew is inappropriate. This means that any non-Jewish music is potentially problematic.
Whether or not it can become kosher by a Jew copying the music and putting Jewish words to that, is a separate matter; even if it is okay to “make it Jewish”, this does not mean the original is also okay to listen to.
Not to mention, on a practical level, that you are biased in favor of wanting to listen to this music so you are, therefore, not the best judge of what is or is not halachicly appropriate to listen to, regardless of the above.
mdd, I already posted the context in which these posts are posted. You, yourself, mistakenly propose that this is only a “Satmar and Brisk shita”. But I believe your moderation is misplaced. You are deceiving people as you so desperately defend this A”Z.
Let’s get to the easy part first. The “missile shield” that the other countries have cannot be compared to Israel’s, and you know it, and it is disingenuous to compare them.
Israel’s missile shield is part of an *ACTIVE* defense system, not just for a “doomsday” scenario like the others. When’s the last time you heard of Russia’s missile shield being activated or intercepting (or missing) a missile? Israel already knows just how effective (and ineffective) are its missile batteries. “Do us a favor, drei nit ken kup.” You also haven’t addressed the ubiquitous bomb shelters and the rest. This “defense” you are attempting is absurd, as is Zionism.
Regarding the oaths and the State, who argues with a befeirush gemara that is brought liHalacha by poskim? This is even conceded by Zionists who are forced to attempt to explain away the oaths with “novel” approaches like “the oaths are only decrees; but if you can successfully disregard the oaths and establish the State of Israel then that’s fine.”
Again, as previously posted:
(The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.)
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Zionism is Avoda Zara and “Religious Zionism” is religion and A”Z biShituf.
That’s not enough for you?
Avi K, your “arguments” are futile and discredited “Religious Zionist” attempts at making kosher their A”Z of Zionism. For starters, the purpose of the oaths is to protect Klal Yisrael in galus and there is no logical reason they should not any more be in effect after an arbitrary amount of time.
(In fact, it seems quite evident, Hashem Yishmor, that the oaths are in effect well past that 1,000 year mark. Suicide bombs and rocks thrown at cars, the Fogel family massacre, and all the other horrors endured by Israelis, are very much not normal. And some gedolim have argued that the Holocaust itself was a manifestation of these oaths.)
The nations fulfilling their oath also has nothing to do with our oaths. Our oaths are for our protection.
Despite Zionist wishful thinking, Rav Meir Simcha never said that. Had ALL the nations (including the Arabs) agreed AND had there been only limited and non-political/non-ruling ascent, then it seems that this would have been okay according to Rav Meir Simcha.
But the San Remo conference does not nullify the oaths. For one, even if ALL the nations had agreed (which the Arabs and others did not), this would only take care of the oath against rebelling against the nations, not the oath against being oleh biChoma, en mass. Regardless, the Arabs never agreed, as is painfully obvious, so Zionism has violated both oaths.
MDD, your post is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Nobody claims 19th-century Europe was free of persecution. I also agree with you that there were serious spiritual issues in Europe, in addition, including (Zionism,) the haskalah, etc.
Your greatest error, however, is the premise that any of this justified Zionism. We had similar, and also worse, periods in our galus; yet, nobody ever condoned violating the oaths and taking Eretz Yisrael en mass and with force against the nations as did the Zionists. In fact, when asked, the Rambam specifically warned the Jews of Yemen in Iggeres Teiman against doing so despite the danger and persecution, physically and spiritually, that the Jews then faced.
They listened to the Rambam and, ironically, until the Zionists hoodwinked them into coming to Israel and then shmaded them (and more), those same Yemenites had kept their mesorah intact from Bayis Rishon.
Zionism was not and is not the solution. As Health posted above, the Zionists decided that “normalizing” the Jewish nation would make the problems of galus go away. Especially in hindsight, it is very clear that the Zionists were very wrong. As the gedolim presciently predicted, they would create far more problems than they thought they would solve.
As I posted earlier, Israeli living clearly reflects the disaster of Zionism (“security fence”, multi-million dollar missile defense shields, neither of which are fully effective, ubiquitous bomb shelters, mandatory conscription, never knowing a day of peace in its decades of bloody existence, etc.)
The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs to hate not only Zionists but (other) Jews as well. These facts were understood already decades ago by “Religious Zionists” like Rabbi Soloveichik and certainly so by, lihavdil, secular Zionists as well.
ROB, repeating your projections on others doesn’t make those any less mistaken than they were the first time you said them. I do not hate and I do not denigrate, as I have said in the past. It is unfortunate for your belief in your A”Z of Zionism that the facts are clearly stacked against this belief.
Before you even get to the gedolim’s views, read what your own Zionists, religious and otherwise, have to say about your faith of Zionism. Childish insults do not make for meaningful contributions to conversations.
MDD, regarding what “annoys” you, the context in which I am posting is that of people who are so blinded by Zionism that they completely refuse to face facts and reality and insist on keeping their heads in the sand.
So, to begin with your own post, I posted a number of unique “features” of Israeli living, like ubiquitous bomb shelters (not to mention all the blown up buses). Those don’t exist elsewhere. And I previously mentioned that thousands of Jews lost their lives because of Zionism.
ROB, thank you for the yom tov wishes.
Even Rabbi Soloveichik admitted that the State of Israel is the cause of Arab hatred to Jews. This is actually quite obvious to any objective observer. While the Arabs did not love us beforehand, we basically lived side-by-side both in their countries and in Mandatory Palestine. As a “religious Zionist”, are you arguing with “the Rav” (and reality)?
Had the Zionists not started up with the Arabs (and had the Zionists not also convinced everyone that Zionism =, lihavdil, Judaism), the Arabs would not hate Jews even if they may not have been our friends either.
Again, Rabbi Soloveichik himself admitted that the establishment of Israel has caused Arab hatred of Jews (and it’s obvious that this is the case). Not to mention all the gedolim who said Zionism is A”Z and/or apikorsus.
Yet any time there is a post reminding Jews that Zionism has been a disaster for Jews (Zionist shmad, then and now, and also the tens of thousands who died or were murdered, many horrifically so, CH”V, and the continued need for an IDF) and that Zionism is not Judaism, the majority of posts in response spout propaganda and/or irrelevant facts trying to defend their idol.
If you want to claim that your religion of Zionism proclaims all this to be worthwhile on the altar of Zionism, then please understand this is very much not, CH”V, Judaism.
Gut yom tov to all.
mdd, who says you are right in assessing their motives (maybe it was financial, family or some other reasons) and, even if you are correct that this is “obviously” their thinking, who says that they are correct when they made that assumption?
The bottom line, regardless, (go ahead and call this “strident” and “propaganda”) is that since 1948 alone (besides for the pre-1948 abominations of Zionism), tens of thousands of Jews (and their future “olamos”) were taken from this world because of the Zionist State, whether they were in the IDF and died fighting for this idol, or were civilian victims of terror.
Bomb shelters have always been normal features of Israeli houses and public buildings. To protect its borders, Israel relies on “security fences” and millions of dollars of anti-missile batteries (not to mention the danger to men on the ground). But Israel still can’t come close to guaranteeing its citizens’ safety. Just tonight, there is another YWN story about this:
(Yet your response is to ask about France and Russia?)
The only way you can honestly address this issue of all those innocent lives lost and families destroyed R”L L”A due to Zionism, is by claiming it’s “worth it” in order to strengthen the State. Even some very esteemed “religious Zionists” agree, when they posit that “lichaora” those lives lost were worthwhile for this reason.
(This is an example of the avoda zara of Zionism: to attempt to halachically condone human sacrifices for the State of Israel, when the Torah’s first priority, even at the expense of mitzvos, and almost without exception, is preserving human life.)
May Hashem keep all His children safe and protect them from all harm CH”V.
ROB, leaving aside your typical Zionist lies and propaganda, your motzi shem ra on gedolim is despicable. While you have the right to keep your head buried in the sand and believe the Zionist propaganda you can’t get enough of, this doesn’t allow you to attack gedolim.
So, to repeat, read what your beloved Zionists admit about their role in the Holocaust:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4
Your “remark” about alter-ego really should not be dignified with a response, but it does bring up a point. Kol HaPoseil BiMumo Poseil; it is you who are a Zionist Yes-Man. I, on the other hand, gave credit to Health as credit was due, just as I have credited other posters by name as well. Please at least leave out the childish remarks.
ROB, I don’t recall being named spokesperson for any group, so I don’t know what your accusation of “main apologist” means in this case, but, as is clear from your previous Zionist yes-man posts, your reality vis-a-vis Zionism seems to be subjective to your wishes rather than an objective reflection of the facts, so I suppose this fits right in with whatever dream-land that might be.
Ayain the other threads where Health pointed out your errors; there were a few humble responses to you from myself as well.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4
Avi K, it’s interesting you mention “forgeries” and “Rabbi Kasher” in the same sentence and NOT mention…Rabbi Kasher’s forgeries. So, other than his sources, what sources do you have that can quote someone who can hold a candle to the likes of the Chofetz Chaim and all those others and more?
mdd, you wrote:
“Plus, they live there without persecution”.
Who lives where without persecution? Surely you can’t mean Jews in Israel?
Zionists have endangered (or worse) both the lives and faith of Jews worldwide, and especially in Israel, since well before they established Israel and even more so ever since 1948.
“Rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz” is what they lived for (and had no problem letting “the old and infirm” die for rather than divert any funds, intended to be used to create the State, to save those Jews trapped in Hitler YM”S’s deadly grasp; even the Zionists admit this).
Charlie:
I would not at all be surprised considering:
their respective positions on college, and
the following:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/3
mdd, those other deaths are not relevant to the discussion here, and, regarding your next post, the many issues of Zionism are not “shailos from the 1930s”.
People still believe in this Avoda Zara of Zionism, even with the benefit of hindsight of decades of history, including the tens of thousands of Jews who died, some rather horrifically, for this idol of Zionism. Not only are so many people fooled by Zionism as an ideology, but they even more obscenely graft it onto, lihavdil, our holy and pure religion.
If Zionists of all stripes (secular, “religious”, whatever) would admit that their religion is either Zionism or part-Zionism/part-Judaism, and not authentic Judaism, and would announce to the entire world that they are not representing Jews but, instead, Zionists, then there would not be much to discuss about it going forward.
But as long as people still mistakenly believe that this (or any) avoda zara of Zionism is permissible, the “shaila” (or, more accurately, the need to explain the “terutz”, that Zionism is Avoda Zara) still is relevant.
mdd, what part of the Brisker shita does “nobody” hold like? Is it the part about not taking any money from the government, perhaps?
The Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Aharon Kotler, and many others held the same regarding Zionism and the State in general. See also this thread:
Regarding the “locals”, think of the many gedolim who were asked about and/or encountered far worse behavior from their respective locals and knew better than to make it WORSE by violating the 3 oaths and attempting to make a state in Eretz Yisrael (as seems to have happened in Israel). Rambam’s Igeres Teiman comes to mind, for example.
Sam2, I’m not sure what site you’re referring to, but that wasn’t what I read and we can’t post links.
Charlie, despite the varying degrees of respect they did accord to the rabbis you mentioned, they still held firmly that those views were wrong. But since you mentioned it: I believe it was Rav Aharon Kotler who said that Rabbi Soloveichik destroyed an entire generation. In the case of Rabbi Kook, he happened to hold a political position so if anyone wanted anything from him then they had to respect him. Regardless, the point is that they held that Zionist theology is absolutely wrong irrespective of any respect accorded to its proponents.
ROB, you’re the one perpetrating a big lie. The Brisker Rov, Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon Wasserman among many others, some as recorded in their respective seforim (e.g. Ikvesa DiMishicha) were absolutely opposed to Zionism and called it the Avoda Zara/heresy that it is.
You’re falsely claiming that is my “mission”. In fact, I have no interest in denigrating anyone. But Zionism is not, lihavdil, Judaism.
yytz, this is absurd. Were it not for Zionism and the State of Israel, there would have been no victims of Arab terror and no fallen/wounded IDF soldiers. Whether or not some of them might have suffered a misfortune, CH”V, in any country, is irrelevant and doesn’t come close to accounting for terror victims and fallen/wounded IDF soldiers.
Some of them also might have remained in their country of origin, like the Yemenites did since Bayis Rishon with their Mesorah intact until the Zionists shmaded them and threw their sefarim and kisvei yad overboard as soon as they arrived in Israel. Not to mention their kids.
Come on.
mdd, as the Brisker Rov, if I am not mistaken, wrote, the Zionists don’t shmad in order to have a State; they need a State because they want to shmad. Shmad is the essence of Zionism.
Anti-religious sentiment has nothing to do with it; their goal, in which they have unfortunately been somewhat successful, is to CH”V replace Judaism with Zionism.
Sam2, a person’s choices do affect his life. If one chooses to play in traffic, it’s not logical to claim that Hashem had already pre-ordained that time as his exit time from this Earth. But being blown up in a cafeteria by a savage suicide bomber or the savage who invaded the Fogel family’s HY”D house makes those deaths much worse even if you claim that this was the pre-ordained time.
The 6-day war, contrary to Zionist propaganda, was not “nissim geluyim”. Google “CIA 6 day war”; it was a “sure thing”.
Regardless, the shmad and horrific deaths, CH”V, in Israel, were all totally unnecessary and only due to Zionism.
yytz:
In Israel, there are plenty of Jewish girls “marrying” Arabs, where these poor girls then go through hell and have to be saved, not to mention the many Russian and other halachic non-Jews. So I’m not so sure it’s 90%.
Regardless, who is to say that these Israelis would not have married Jews? After all, it was the Zionists who shmaded them and they were, for the most part, originally religious before coming to Israel. So they probably would have married Jews regardless. American kiruv is explosive and far-reaching and, BE”H, those intermarriage numbers will decrease.
However, your assertion that any of this would “make up” for the 25,000 who died or were savagely murdered is not one that I agree with at all. Al pi derech HaTevah, every one of those Jews would still be alive and their families would not be grieving over their untimely deaths, R”L L”A. This is a direct result of Zionism and their is no justifying any of those deaths, CH”V.
Strangely, religious Zionists, from some of their top halachic decisors on down, believe that (“lichaora”) the Torah condones these human sacrifices to their eigel of a State.
You’re claiming these Jewish neshamos wouldn’t have existed without the medinah; I disagree, and, at best, you’re speculating. Hashem could have arranged a different way for these neshamos to come to this world, if He had wanted to do so. But to condone shmad for any reason, including speculating that there are more Jews as a result, is not acceptable, in my humble opinion.
Look at all the Jews who are and were in Israel who are lost to their heritage because the Zionists shmaded them and continue to do so. None of this would have happened without Zionism.
Lastly, Secular Ideology and Shmad are separate entities. The United States cannot establish a national religion and its society is somewhat secular. That’s partly why we have our own schools, etc. But that pales in comparison to shmad, where a “Jewish” government and State exist only to change Jews into Zionists. This is unique to Israel, and B”H, not at all the case outside Israel. Rav Moshe famously called the United States a Medina Shel Chesed; we are free to practice our faith and even respected for doing so, unlike in Israel.
ROB:
The likes of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Chafetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others called Zionism the Avoda Zara/apikorsus that it is. Rav Elchonon HY”D also called “”Religious” Zionism” religion and avoda zara bishutfus.
There are no other valid shitos in this regard; Zionism is diametrically opposed to, lihavdil, the Torah. You choose to fool yourself and align yourself with outdated notions of European Nationalism and graft the same on to, lihavdil, our holy Torah, when, in addition to the great Rabbis who opposed Zionism, history has shown what a churban Zionists have perpetrated on our people.
WolfMan, point taken. Thank you.
When Rabbi Kook made that comment about the soccer players being greater than neviim, the gedolim of the time, including the Chofetz Chaim, knew and made clear that he was wrong. This was the consensus of the Torah greats of the day and I intended merely to repeat that, not to add my own condemnation.
What I meant by “reality proving those shitos to be wrong” was that, long after Rabbi Koook espoused his views, it’s clear that Zionism has been a disaster, both from a spiritual perspective (yaldei Tehran, ongoing shmad, et al ad nauseum) and from a physical (lack of security and loss of lives, CH”V) perspective.
Ask your LOR (of course).
While it is true that even an ani has a mitzva of tzedaka, that does not mean they have a chiyuv maaser.
The main reason is that the Internet is primarily an awareness issue, whereas smoking is clear to everyone whose head is not in the sand that it is wrong.
I concur with akuperma’s points above, except that Lipman pointed out that his goal was that they be funded independently AS SOME SCHOOLS ALREADY ARE, not that they be closed down.
Regardless, were it not for the Zionist factor and other factors, as Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum described in his piece titled, “Where the American and Israeli Torah Communities Differ”, my guess is that Rav Feldman’s reaction would have been different.
So it seems that there are some minor issues with Rabbi Lipman’s position; whereas with arguably greater issues, like Zionism, for example, I don’t see everyone rushing to similarly condemn Rabbi Kook and his followers the same way, despite similar denigrations being heaped on them and/or their “shitos” by one or more gedolim and the reality proving those “shitos” to be wrong.
I’m a little behind in my reading of this thread.
Regarding Avi K’s remark about Zionist wars being “generally accepted” as milchemes mitzvah:
This is a mistaken Zionist notion, and certainly not accepted outside Zionism; Zionism is, of course, according to our gedolim, avoda zara.
Come on.
MO, while resembling traditional Orthodoxy in many ways, is not compatible with traditional Orthodoxy (though TIDE is compatible).
MO, including Rabbi Herschel Schachter as per his shiurim, believes in Zionism as a religious part of their religion. As in, for example, they believe it’s potentially worth sacrificing Jewish lives for the State of Israel (not just to help people there). That’s a huge break from, and wholly incompatible with, traditional Orthodoxy.
As well, MO holds that Torah and, lihavdil, Maddah both have intrinsic value. This is also not traditional Orthodoxy. It’s just Torah that has intrinsic values, even if we also study secular subjects for permitted (e.g. practical) reasons.
Not to mention the mixing of the genders and teaching gemara to girls, et al. which are all incompatible with traditional Orthodoxy.
truthsharer:
The nations should know clearly that traditional Orthodox Jews are loyal to and grateful to our host country as our neviim long ago exhorted us to be loyal and, other than MO and other misguided Zionists, not to (the avoda zara that is) the Zionist State of Israel.
This “dual-loyalty” canard/concept has to stop. We care about our brethren living everywhere, not about their host governments, and certainly not Zionism/Israel which is against our Torah; we care only for its Jews.
They should also know that we (try to) remain 100% true to our faith and, like other faiths, maintain a faith-based culture and community as we live “normal” lives working in many different fields. Yet our hard work, as productive and grateful citizens and like that of everyone else, obviously benefits our host country’s economy and everyone regardless of community.
Part of this gratitude we have to them is due to them enabling us to keep our faith, unlike the Zionists who even until today seek to replace our faith with Zionism and unlike so many of the countries that we have been to in our long exile which persecuted us.
This would be a tremendous Kiddush Hashem.
yytz:
Non-Chassidic and Non-MO Jews whose members happen to work in all sorts of fields in addition to, lihavdil, klei kodesh and value the Torah’s values and lifestyle above all else, including ashkenazim, sefardim and TIDE Germans, are the ones who believe in the same Judaism that has always been practiced.
MO, according to no less than Rabbi JB Soloveichik himself, is a new innovation, which, especially in hindsight, was based on a faulty premise and whose premise is even more clearly not relevant today. But it seems people are either not educated well in matters of their faith, or else they like kulos even when those are really issurim, one would guess…
ashmorris613:
In fact, even Rabbi JB Soloveichik, the founder of MO stated that the less secular culture the better. Whereas one of his students, YU’s Chancellor Lamm referred to traditional Orthodox as (Torah) cavemen. Unfortunately, the talmid’s mistaken view has prevailed.
In practice, however, unlike Lamm’s mistaken opinion, there are, of course, many professionals (many with the highest degrees in their fields) who are traditionally orthodox, not “Centrist”. Whether for parnassa and its required education or for any other legitimate reason, one does not need to compromise their Judaism (as does MO), and this should be (made) clear to both Jew and non-Jew alike.
We just recently read parshas Kedoshim. As in “vihyisem li sigula miKal haAmim”, and not diminishing that kedusha as a fulfillment of an erroneous “value” of being “Modern”. Not to mention the Avoda Zara of Zionism to which they also (incredibly) elevated (a massive rebellion against the Torah that is Zionism) to a religious obligation, also due (in part), it seems, to this modernity.
See also this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/3
ashmorris613:
“Modern orthodox–tries to observe Judaism while being open to aspects of modern society that do not conflict with it. Charedi/so-called “Ultra Orthodox” –tries to observe and preserve Judaism by shunning most of modern society’s influence…”
—-
Your list is incomplete since you missed mentioning “Traditional Orthodox”.
As well, its description of MO is inaccurate.
In any society with many values antithetical to ours, it is fairly obvious that one can only “observe and preserve Judaism by shunning most of modern society’s influence”, regardless of how “Modern” you think you may be. So this is certainly a reasonable baseline.
Modern Orthodox (or “Centrists” as they like to think of themselves to justify their “Modernity”), mistakenly ascribe inherent value to modernity and secular culture and, therefore, push beyond acceptable boundaries of halacha in order to be “Modern”.
Traditional Orthodoxy values the Torah’s values above all else. Period. Any conforming societal or other norms that do not conflict with our values are, therefore, acceptable to that extent only.
If anyone really wants to frame this in, lihavdil, Christian terms, I would think it’s like this:
The Christian equivalent of Conservative (as in religion, not politics) might hold that Yeshu was a partial savior.
The Reform equivalent might hold that he was only allegorically a savior.
The Reconstructionism equivalent might hold that he was just a nice guy.
I would presume that no Christian theologist would view any of these as a valid approach to Christianity, despite the varying levels of resemblance to Christianity that these approaches may have.
Regardless, lihavdil, the holy Torah cannot be changed.
ashmorris613:
“There is only one Judaism, just different approaches to it. Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative –all are attempts to change Judaism…”
I don’t mean to criticize, but this is, of course, absurd; Hashem stated in the Torah that the Torah cannot be changed. For example “Lo Soseif alav viLo Sigra miMenu”. The “different approaches” exist solely within Orthodoxy. These other denominations are not genuine Judaism.
Central to Judaism, unlike, lihavdil, Christianity, is the world’s blueprint, the Torah, and its 613 mitzvos and underlying belief and value system. These other “denominations” tamper with some or all of this so they are, therefore, not legitimate Jewish paths. This ranges from undermining (i.e. Conservative) to “reforming” to “reconstructing” some or all of the central tenets and more of our faith.
Put another way, these “other denominations” are simply different religions that happen to resemble Judaism ranging from somewhat (Conservative) to not at all (Reform and Reconstructionist).
ZDad: the problem with that approach is that the IDF is a moral sinkhole and Zionist “acculturation” and “deJudaization” tool, and that the chareidim were in Eretz Yisrael long before Zionism got there.
So the Zionists have no business in making the Chareidim serve in their army (especially since their army is only “necessary” because the Zionists decided to pick a fight with the Arabs so they could have their State, against the explicit wishes of the chareidim already living there who lived peacefully with the Arabs).
Avi K:
You keep repeating this story is a lie. There are plenty of names quoted in that story. 2 different yeshivos viTalmideihem heard that story.
Someone should be able to verify if the story is indeed false.
Meanwhile, you accuse someone of lying. Prove that he’s lying.
If I had to pick whose story I believe between two anonymous Internet posters, the one whose views are in consonance with the Torah are the ones I’d choose.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
Zionists have no answers.
ROB, instead of being a yes man to Zionist apologetics, why not try to answer some of the questions posed?
Because you can’t. But that’s okay; nobody else can, either, because it’s not possible to answer.
rationalfrummie:
There are other mekoros besides the gemara in Kesubos, but that’s not the point. And the gimmel shevuos are brought down lihalacha in various other places.
But that’s besides the point.
The gemara in kesubos says something. Your kushya is how to apply hashgacha pratis and klalis to the State of Israel and Zionism.
You could ask the same thing on how Hashem allowed Klal Yisrael to miscalculate about the 40 days and make the egel (and murder Chur, a gadol HaDor, in the process). Where was Hashem’s hashgacha? There are plenty of other things one can ask about.
With Zionism, our gedolim told us that Hashem allowed the Satan to put Klal Yisrael to an enormous test. This is crystal clear, in hindsight. Unfortunately, like the Baal, Zionism has fooled and propagandized many people into being pocheis al shitai haSiifim of Torah and, lihavdil, Zionism.
There are other parts to the answer like bechira and much more.
But, regardless, how can you ignore a bifeirush gemara and so much more because of what you (mistakenly) believe to be “nissim and niflaos” and chasadim? Yeshu did nissim, too. The gemara in A”Z says that people were healed in a Church. Nissim do not prove the correctness of anything. It is the Zionists who refuse to see Hashem’s true workings.
Would you have preferred that Hashem had taken more blood during their bloody war of independence to prove that the Zionists were wrong? B”H, Hashem spared His people. Why use that against Him?
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
That sounds pretty rational and frum to me.
147, Zionists are known to have unusual priorities, so your statement fits right in.
You are saying that it is far more reprehensible and sadder to follow their own Rav in not voting in Israel than it is to worship Avoda Zara by believing in Zionism.
I would believe that this is Zionism if you say it is.
“Torah Yid” quoted this Kook Shmook story, in a different thread, and added more details:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-elyashev-bans-nachal-chareidi/page/7
“The Rosh Yeshiva of YU, HaRav Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L, personally was present and directly heard from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth say Kook Shmook derogatorily. He was at the CC with his father who was a talmid of the CC. And Rav Gorelick repeated this story publicly frequently. (Including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva.) As did The Rov ZT’L (Rav Berel Soloveitchik ZT’L) relate this story publicly.”
So how do you know the Kook Shmook story is a lie? Surely this could easily be verified, given the above names.
But it doesn’t matter, because there’s plenty more that “religious Zionism” can’t answer.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
And other gedolim besides the Satmar Rov forbade learning from Rabbi Kook’s seforim. So when the Satmar Rov called him an apikores, how are you so sure he was exaggerating? And how much of an “exaggeration” was it? Come on.
Again, it is clear that Zionism in any form is against the Torah; and its bloody history has proven too well that it was very foolish and deadly to violate the Oaths, Hashem Yishmor.
Avi K: I repeated what I read, not my own halachic ruling.
See my post above. All the stories are nice stories, but if the Satmar Rav called him an apikores, that’s not something to take lightly.
Regardless, as I wrote earlier:
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that Zionists continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
Sam2: In case my other post didn’t make it through, “myfriend” mentioned the story in this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hashkofos-apikorsos