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With all due respect to the Rav and his Torah, he still represents the State of Israel. This is plain and obvious.
Therefore, I can see why going to the siyum would have been problematic for those who so strongly *and correctly* understand that Zionism is not Judaism, as their attendance would have implied an acceptance of halachic legitimacy of the State of Israel, which of course is not the case.
Again, the only “sad” part about this is the tremendous damage the Zionists have inflicted on our people. Otherwise, this has nothing to do with Mashiach, and I disagree with Mod/42 that they should have gone “even though” the Rav was there. Besides, if it bothers “the Satmar”, unless they came to protest in your face, then why not live and let live? There is anyways no chiyuv to go to a Siyum HaShas.
Unlike the Internet Asifa, incidentally, nobody was told they should attend this siyum. So it would appear more appropriate to have attended the Asifa, where there was a wide-spread call for attendance, than the Siyum, if one were going to choose only one event.
It seems the Siyum was a 100% Kiddush Hashem. B”H!
May the next one be in the rebuilt B”H with the true geulah BB”A.
Speaking of the Siyum HaShas, there is certainly discussion there about Moshiach’s coming.
There are certainly those who hold that the world will continue more or less as is, except that “Vihaya Hashem LiMelech Al Kal HaAretz BaYom Hahu Yihye Hashem Echad uShmo Echad”, that even the gentiles will be 100% sure that Hashem is the Creator.
But regarding what I perceive to be the main point of your thread, I was hoping to hear some of the numerous kiddush Hashem stories that must have occurred to so many.
From the coverage I saw thus far, it seemed clear that the secular world simply cannot relate to what a simcha this was for so many dedicated people, men, women and children, each for their own unique and important role in this wonderful individual and global simcha in finishing Shas and all the hard work, sacrifice, etc. that this entails.
Naftush, the reality is what it is, and my post was not sinah and it was certainly not biChinam.
I will not repeat myself regarding the evils and tragedies of and by Zionism, but this is still the terrible truth regardless of the amazing progress Israel has made in its short existence, BE”H.
Sam2, I did not say Gedolim are “infallible”, but I did say that the Zionist canard regarding them is reprehensible and false as I explained above.
Tisha BiAv is approaching.
As usual, Zionists don’t hesitate to besmirch gedolim who so rightly predicted the disaster that Zionism would become, and they twist the Holocaust to further their painfully wrong and disastrous agenda.
To quote ROB:
“clearly, the gedolim who directly dissuaded people in Europe to flee were wrong, and the gedolim who continue to fight the medina will end up on the wrong side of history. (they already are)…”
Rabbi Shafier of TheShmuz.com has a shmuz about the Holocaust. The entire series of events was one fluke after another, and it likely would have never happened had not everything worked out as it did.
To be clear, in all likelihood, until the very last moment, the HOLOCAUST was NOT predictable. Even today, it still boggles the mind how such a massive atrocity could have occurred.
Further, if you read the history of what actually happened during WW II, you would discover many interesting things.
Just for **starters**:
1. Hitler YM”Sh originally wanted to only expel the Jews (some say until the Zionists angered him, AGAINST the wishes of the gedolim, which is when he switched to genocide).
2. It was the Zionists and their reform allies who did all in their power to sabotage the holy work of Rabbi Weissmandl and others because the Zionists insisted that emigration be to Palestine only. Et al. This is recorded history.
So when all the facts are out, it is very clear that the gedolim were quite right in advising people to stay in Europe as that was the best choice, given a normal progression of reality, at that time.
Regarding the rest of ROB’s Zionist fallacies and wishful thinking:
Zionists have brought and continue to ch”v bring massive destruction and disaster to our holy people, and the gedolim were and are absolutely right to have fought Zionism and to continue to do so. This is painfully obvious to any objective observer and doesn’t require the knowledge of history that the Holocaust does.
The world, including the Jewish people, would most likely (as in overwhelmingly so) have been far, far better off had Zionism never entered the world stage.
There’s no point in putting together the two points and reminding Zionists of those who hold that Hashem allowed the Holocaust to happen due to Zionism, etc. Nor about the various quotes from Zionists during WW II that make them sound like Nazis. Etc.
Even without all that, Zionism has been really, really, bad news for the Jewish people.
And if even a tzaddik can do an aveira CH”V, as ROB (mis)quoted, then al achas kama viKamma that the Zionists did and continue to do many, many aveiros.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah BB”A.
“For those opposed to it, how can you deny that Hashem helped with its establishment? Why would Hashem help with such open miracles if He does not want Israel to exist as it does now?”
Yawn. More (regurgitated, as noted by others) Zionist wishful thinking (at best).
As pointed out above (by others), why did Hashem allow the Nazi 3rd Reich to so cruelly and inhumanly murder so many of our forebearers among the many other unimaginable atrocities they committed against our people?
Obviously, not everything Hashem allows to happen is necessarily the preferred approach, despite His permission for it to happen.
While on the topic, there are those who hold that the Zionists hijacked the tremendous eis ratzon that existed after the Holocaust and, instead of allowing Moshiach to come, they replaced it with their idolatry.
We would have had far better access to mekomos hakedoshim (and a Beis Hamikdash in its entirety and true and unending world peace, rather than only the Kosel retaining wall and some other mekomos that require an armed escort to visit).
Not much to be thankful for, in that view, especially when the gedolim told them they shouldn’t.
Regardless, what about the many Jews murdered while under Zionist rule?
Al pi Derech HaTeva, none of the Jews who died in defense of this egel would have died at that time, many of them at only the very beginning of life.
As well, the many families and individuals, victims of Arab terror, HY”D, would still be alive and well were it not for Zionist fallacies.
(The Olam Hafuch aspect is that the Zionists are actually proud of their utter disaster and successfully and misleadingly convince many others of the same.)
As the three weeks approach, this is all actually much more like Tisha BiAv material, unfortunately.
YehudahTzvi, I’m not convinced that making them cry will make them leave Jews alone, especially if they are not malicious. Again, ask your LOR.
Matan1, I didn’t say Christianity is false because it contradicts our ikkrim. There were 3 separate points.
1. Christianity cannot be derived from, and is incompatible with, our Torah.
2. The Torah expressly forbids believing in just anyone just because they perform osos, if they are leading you astray.
3. Kabbalah is not forbidden by the Torah.
It is not obvious, clear, nor objective.
A gemara, which is a snippet of recorded notes, must be taken in context and with the proper understanding, and is not intended to be read with an existing agenda in mind, but rather learned properly so as to understand what the holy sages meant in those notes.
Twisting a gemara, that could vaguely resemble something they believe in, is not impressive in the slightest because, here, too, the meaning is anyways different and clearly not that way, as I wrote in my post.
There are plenty of other gemaras, too, that, amusingly, people get all worked up over when they read the simple English translation, only to find out how foolish they are when they understand what the gemara actually means (if they care to find out).
Again, you can make a similar mistake from a cursory and non-intellectual reading of the Akeidah. But human sacrifice is obviously never condoned, unlike what one could decide to take from the akeidah.
But, again, I would leave it to talmidei chachamim.
I forget where I read this, but even the Vatican was modeh (again, I forget to whom), that the accounts in their “New Testament” were essentially for hisorerus/illustration purposes and are not factual accounts, which means even they agree that there was no Immaculate Conception nor Virgin Birth, etc.
I would assume your average Christian and even your typical minister does not know this, despite the numerous raayos that those stories could never have happened.
But that’s okay, and besides the point, because they can believe whatever they want.
But the point is that our Torah is NOT any basis for, lihavdil, their beliefs.
Regarding Kabbalah:
Whether or not it is a deviation from the mesorah and, therefore, wrong, is irrelevant. Lihavdil, Christianity is a contradiction to our ikrei emunah.
yitayningwut, no, the concept is not there in the gemara Sukkah either. There is no source for a person’s anything atoning for all mankind.
(First of all, it would be ridiculous to have the many halachos of korbanos, teshuva, kapparah, etc. if there were no need for any of that. So the gemara obviously cannot mean what you imply.)
I wish to leave this to the talmidei chachamim to address.
However, from a very quick glance at the Maharsha, whatever the gemara does mean, that gemara has nothing at all to do with the Christian belief you are implying it parallels.
The Maharsha mentions, for example, that during the entire time Rav Elazar had his yissurim CH”V, that nobody died before his time. It does not say they lived free of sin nor that they bore no other punishments CH”V. And that particular immunity ended when his yissurim did.
And nowhere does it say he meant there is no more sichar viOnesh, etc. ch”V.
(While you’re at it, you can also say that since Hashem commanded Avraham Avinu to bring Yitzchak at the Akeidah that this CH”V condones human sacrifice. Of course, the truth is the oppposite that this was a mind-blowing test that they both passed with flying colors to our tremendous merit forever.)
As I said earlier, you can twist anything to mean anything, but not if you’re objective, honest and educated. Bringing this gemara as a source for their belief is none of the above.
YehudahTzvi, while you are obviously correct and it’s even easier than that to disprove their attempts, they will usually say “well, but…” and try a different “question”.
If they CH”V succeed in planting a doubt with some other kushya they rattle off, it will not be fun to work one’s way out of that.
So it’s best to ask an LOR how to approach this, and also to know your stuff, too.
Also, as yitayningwut said earlier, I don’t know that it’s appropriate to make them leave in tears, especially if they are naive in what they are doing and sincerely believe the very mistaken notion that they are doing you a favor. I think it smacks of achzariyus, which is a particularly terrible midah.
Missionaries are people, too, of course, and I’m sure Hashem is not looking for His creations to be in tears. IF they are evil then that is a different matter, but if they’re just naive or ill-informed gentiles, I see no reason to make them feel bad, even though you have to personally reject their ideas for Jews.
Regarding your latter point:
“But I do not think that there is any point in going on the offensive and trying to “refute” their religion. And, as an aside, I do not think historically we ever have done so. “
I agree, to a point, though I believe this is also an important point to discuss with one’s LOR.
Personally, I believe that every Jew should be quite clear that our faith is very obviously the one and only Das Emes, and that no others can, neither objectively nor even subjectively, derive support from our holy Torah.
I’m not 100% comfortable with your use of “defensively”, as it implies that there is what to defend when there really is nothing to defend since their “arguments” are based on mistakes and/or worse.
Again, dealing with these matters is a sewer; ask an LOR what, if anything, to do.
On a related note, Hashem obviously placed these other faiths in the world for a reason. So, for example, if non-Jews live more moral lives as a result of their faith, then that’s great for everyone. We do not look to proselytize. In fact, we seek to NOT proselytize.
But, lihavdil, we have the forever-enduring and absolutely permanent das emes, and we should be crystal-clear that this is the case.
yitayningwut, it’s hard to figure out how Kabbalah is being compared to, lihavdil, A”Z and, even more difficult to imagine how you can intellectually question “why don’t we all convert?”.
First of all, a navi is not necessarily believed after he does some “magic tricks”. In fact, the Torah warns expressly against such belief when the navi deviates from the Torah.
As well, Kabbalah, properly learned and understood, does not negate any part of the Torah.
Second, and more important, there is no intellectually honest way you can cram Christianity into, lihavdil, our holy Torah.
There are simply no reasonable answers to the numerous and multi-pronged problems with Christian use of our Torah to support their faith. It’s simply impossible and a non-starter.
You can erroneously find support for anything if you are biased and/or pursuing an agenda, if that’s your goal. But, again, it’s a non-starter, no matter how great a gemara-kup you think you have, PROVIDED you are being intellectually honest.
As for the MO haters: plenty of Kollel people have advanced degrees from secular schools, and many also go out into the secular workforce after their years in Kollel, too. The ones who become klei kodesh also BE”H make a parnassa. And plenty of people with advanced degrees and/or years of experience are unfortunately still jobless.
Are you, perhaps, jealous that, in addition to having the above, they know how to learn Torah very well and know a good amount of Torah, and that they can also conduct their families BiDerech HaTorah?
There are sites like Jews for Judaism and people like Rabbi Tovia Singer and his site (Outreach Judaism) that have plenty of material on this topic.
Ask your LOR what approach to take before you jump into this sewer of engaging missionaries.
As I recall from various sources, off the top of my head:
For starters, the missionary likely does not know a word of Lashon HaKodesh, and therefore anything he quotes you from whatever worthless translation bible he uses is wrong at best and perhaps even fraudulent at worst.
Their own scriptures, too, have many stiros minei ubeih in metzius and elsewhere (not to mention the various conflicting editions), which means the whole thing is certainly not factual and even more so not accurate.
So, their scriptures cannot be relied on to tell anyone that, for example, their savior was born of a virgin (which, not coincidentally, was a popular pagan belief at the time). While on that particular topic, they mis-translate “alma” as virgin.
Understand that as slick and sure of himself as the guy might be, he is more ignorant than most Amei HaAretz and it makes no sense to listen to anything from an ignoramus, even if it might sound like it could make sense.
Even for the better arguments, once you dig a little, the whole thing comes crashing down like the house of cards it (at best) is.
Rabbi Singer’s approach, from what I’ve seen, is to stick to our Tanach, because they, too, liHavdil, also believe in that and, of course, there is not even the slightest support for their faith anywhere in Tanach, of course.
You can try to twist anything to say anything and even fool some people some of the time, unfortunately. But if you’re honest and objective (and educated) then it is clear as day that the Torah does not CH”V allow for Christianity for the Jewish people and, in fact, 1000% forbids it for Jews.
Since when has anyone on YWN insulted gedolim?
Respectfully pointing out what appears to be an (again, inevitable) error is not insulting to anyone.
For example, Yehuda ben Yaakov Avinu publicly admitted his error when Tamar respectfully asked whose chosam, pesil, et al. are these, when she, of course, knew that they were Yehuda’s.
Sam2, if a Gadol strongly promotes things that are kineged HaTorah, he will, unfortunately, inevitably err, to say the least. I think PBA is very justified in respectfully pointing this out, regarding the Egel HaZahav of Zionism and its IDF. Essentially, they believe “Aileh Elohecha Yisrael Asher Heelucha MiGalus Edom/Yishmael” CH”V. Unfortunately, they are so wrong in so many ways.
PBA is, of course, correct that the greatest common denominator we have as a Jewish people is our Torah/Yahadus, and not, lihavdil, the secular cultural indoctrination organ of the IDF which, with all due respect, can certainly NOT be the definitive “Am Yisrael” that the Rabbi claims it is.
Finally, biMakom Chilul Hashem Ain Cholkim Kavod LaRav. I wonder if the above quote from the Rabbi qualifies.
A) yekke2, that argument is also faulty because, in part, we didn’t yet have the Torah in Mitzrayim.
(As well, the Nazis YM”Sh also understood Yiddish, so there’s nothing all that muvdal about Yiddish, certainly not all that different than Yeshivish English today.)
Now that, for well over 3,000 years now, the Torah has bound us as one nation, there is no need to resort to speaking our own language as being a Torah Jew does far more for everyone than using a common language.
This is pashut.
For example, if you need a minyan in Paris while waiting for a flight out, no matter what language you speak, the word “Shacharis” and a gesture to your Talis/Tefillin should be enough to convey you’re looking for a minyan and any other Jew will happily join you no matter what language he speaks because we all have the same mitzvos. Again, we did not have that in Mitzrayim.
No Yiddish is needed.
B) ** The following is a quote from another site, if the mods wish to allow it:
If the Mods do not, the following point still stands. **
It’s very insulting and is a lack of derech eretz to many Jews that, in the United States whose national language is American English, one has to publicly Lifnei Am ViEidah “justify” speaking in English, “CH”V”, essentially apologizing for not addressing the gathering in Yiddish; this is a tremendous turn-off and slap in the face to those who do not speak Yiddish, and accomplishes exactly the opposite of what is intended: it alienates those Jews who do not speak Yiddish and erroneously makes some Jews feel superior to those other Jews who do not speak it.
This is not, CH”V, an accusation that all who speak yiddish feel they are superior, but it has certainly happened, and it is a terrible avlah born, most likely, of ignorance as to what being a Torah Jew is really all about.
To be perfectly clear, there is nothing wrong with speaking English, and to apologize for doing so is, again, wrong, despite the good intention in doing so.
Yiddish is useful for only 2 things: historical purposes and for effective communication with the older generation. Everyone should speak English (and/or Yeshivish English), which is an international language, in addition to the native language of the country they live in. This will truly unify all of, rather than alienate, CH”V, any part of, Klal Yisrael.
gabie, many are almost completely ignorant of this cholent, known as Yiddish, of High German, Polish and, lihavdil, Lashon HaKodesh. While those who speak Yiddish SHOULD be at least passably fluent in English, to the point that is a speaker speaks in English, or at least English with some Yiddish mixed in, everyone should be able to understand.
There is little reason this “language” of Yiddish exists, other than for historical purposes and communicating with those of previous generations who speak it better than the native language.
There already is a new Yiddish that should take over the function Yiddish served, and that is Yeshivish English. Since English is an international language and everyone learns Talmud Bavli, you now have a perfect international Jewish language.
AinOhdMilvado, you seem to be considering this in an extremely simplistic, and therefore, very wrong, manner. Of course, this is most likely due to the aforementioned Zionist Kool-Aid you say you love rather than an intellectual reason.
The terrible merida of Zionism would have only been made MORE tragic, had Hashem allowed MORE Jews ch”V R”L to have lost their lives due to Zionist aggression and those wars then being lost on top of everything.
In other words, the likely reason the Zionists did not lose those wars and the likely reason that this Avoda Zara of Zionism is still in existence, is that the Zionists have (wrongly, of course) made themselves responsible for the security of mass numbers of Jews.
So it seems plain that Hashem granted them victories for the express purpose of preserving Jewish lives. Had they lost those wars, it would have been even more disastrous than Zionism presently is. But had Zionism not started, not one Jewish live would have been lost in any of their follies. This is absolute.
Certainly, the gedolim were and are against this egel haZahav, and no miracles change that. In fact, the Torah dedicates a few pesukim to this exact phenomenon: if a Navi arises and performs **miracles** but uses those as a vehicle to say that you should worship other gods, this is Hashem testing you and you should NOT follow this navi. All the Zionist victories are no better. Again, miracles do not determine right and wrong.
The State is, unfortunately, a reality. And tactical considerations do not necessarily dictate the same response as what would be ideal were those considerations not there. But Zionism was and is a terrible disaster for our people.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.
yichusdik, I re-read your post you referred to.
Nothing you wrote supports the Avoda Zara of Zionism which, once again, was roundly and almost universally by all gedolim condemned from the 1800s and on.
If you were so concerned about being mevazeh neviim, acharonim, etc., you’d probably open your own eyes to the truth of the terrible meridah that is Zionism rather than ignoring the gemara, Rambam, Ramban, et al.
simcha613, as derszoger already posted, Israel has certainly not fared better than, lihavdil, Shevet Efraim. Shlomo HaMalech wrote “Hishbati Eschem Binos Yerushalayim…BiAylos Hasadeh”, etc. and, unfortunately, anyone following the news in the 1990s read about unimaginably horrific calamities that Acheinu Binei Yisrael experienced in Eretz Yisrael. Obviously, none of this and more would have happened had the Zionists not ignored the gedolim…
But, besides that, Zionism is not “worthwhile” even if “only” one Jew would have been harmed. And, unfortunately, many, many, more than one were harmed, R”L. It is quite clear that Zionism has been a major disaster for our people, R”L.
Shevet Ephraim also thought the time was ripe to leave Mitzrayim (and they weren’t off by very many years), and that didn’t go very well, unfortunately. The disaster of Zionism has been many, many times worse.
The gedolim said it’s treif, we all know it’s treif, and it would have been wrong to be “oleh biChoma” even more than was done.
Rather than going against our chachamim (“Al Pi HaTorah asher Yorucha”) and against pashut pshat chaza”l, had Zionism NOT started, however, it’s certainly possible Moshiach would have been here by now.
Since, unlike Christians, Muslims do not believe in a Trinity CH”V, the Muslim “Allah” should refers to what we refer to as “G-d”. Given this, it makes sense to use a Muslim term when speaking to Muslims.
I also don’t see the gross blasphemy in calling Yerushalayim “Al Quds”, when speaking to Muslims, especially when you would refer to it as “Jerusalem” if speaking to any non-Jew. Al Quds simply means “HaKodesh” just as “Jerusalem” really means “Yerushalayim”, which is the “Ir HaKodesh”.
(To be clear, yes, it is *really* “Yerushalayim” as that’s Hashem’s name for it. Interestingly, it seems the city was of no interest to Muslims, as is well known, until one of the Pashas conveniently decided a few hundred years ago that Al Aqsa refers to a new Mosque on Har Habayis. But that’s irrelevant here.)
far east:
“hate it because its run by non-frum jews”
People don’t hate it, and not because it is run by non-frum Jews. There is no reason to hate anything because of the level of observance of its owners.
But the entire Zionist enterprise is a blatant affront to, and terrible rebellion against, Hashem and His holy Torah. That’s the major problem and a cause for serious consternation. The kol isha and other IDF issues and myriad other problems with the State, serious as they are, are only secondary to this.
“Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.”
This is too simplistic a view. All of these miracles have had the clear effect of saving Jewish lives. That these miracles may have also benefited the State of Israel is irrelevant.
As well, the only reason anything exists is that Hashem allows it to begin and continue to do so. But man has free will. So not everything that exists is His preference. To be very clear, Hashem did NOT and still does NOT want a State of Israel. That it continues to exist means simply that Hashem ALLOWS it to exist, not that he WANTS it. Hashem allowed many things that He clearly did not WANT (like the churban of both Batei Mikdash and other things we mention on Tisha BiAv).
Speaking of Tisha BiAv, that is the REAL day for mourning the loss of the 6+ million kedoshim of the holocaust, not on some artificially invented Zionist day. By NOT doing so on 9 Av and INSTEAD doing so on this invented day, Zionists deny that the source of all the tragedies, CH”V that befell our people throughout the ages, is rooted in 9 Av and Hashem having expelled us from E”Y. This is not convenient for the Zionism, of course, since they are post-Jewish Israelis who have “returned” to the land, unlike those “galus” Jews. Of course, the Israeli is the greatest “galus Jew” with his insatiable thirst for “normalcy” and recognition from the nations of the world who really laugh at him.
ROB, akuperma is absolutely right and you can’t face the reality.
Why do you take a classic Zionist lying tactic and tell outright lies in the face of Zionist gems like “One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe”? But that line was surely very helpful during the Holocaust, yes? Kol HaPoseil…? If you can’t admit your own “issues”, at least don’t blame religious Jews who do the ratzon Hashem, unlike Zionism which despises Him.
Hashem, and, lihavdil elef alfei havdalos, not the IDF, is the One who has sustained us throughout this long galus, and IY”H will continue to do so ad beas goel tzedek BB”A, DESPITE the tragedy of Zionism and its many, many halachic problems, not the least of which is its denial of the shalosh shevuos which we read just the other week.
May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.
Sam2, I was actually going to refrain from posting in this thread due to the OP’s seeming earnest and good intentions.
But since ZeesKite pointed out some of the errors made therein and you chose to dismiss those very valid points because you didn’t want anyone to miss out on this Zionist indoctrination day even though this would be corrupting, ch”V our holy Torah, I feel it’s important to clarify – if not for you, who chooses to believe otherwise despite the facts, then for others.
The main point is, to be blunt, that krum Torah, even if said earnestly, is still krum and it must be called out as such, if possible.
This is not “kanaus” and it’s certainly not a matter of “the major flaws the current government has”.
Let’s be very clear: even though MO mistakenly chooses to append this avodah zara of Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah, this does not at all negate the reality that the entire Zionist enterprise is treif and assur. Period. According to virtually every posek, it was, is and always will be. This is also pashut, to any objective observer. Facts on the ground may dictate a “There’s nothing you can do?” approach regarding the State, but this does not make it any less treif.
While the creation of this State might not have been madchik the geulah as some hold, it is certainly not the aschalta as MO and others erroneously hold, and it always has been, even more certainly, R”L a disaster for the Jewish people. Each day, R”L, shows yet another reason that this was a really bad idea, just as the gedolim all foretold. Amazingly, “religious Zionists” persist in their Zionism despite all this.
No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment.
From Ohr Samayach (ohr.edu):
…
As far as the year 6000 is concerned, it is simply an upper limit — i.e., by the year 6000 the Mashiach will already be here. But that’s not to say that it can’t happen sooner.
In these matters, says the Rambam, no one knows exactly what will happen until it happens. The Rambam cautions against being preoccupied with Midrashim about Mashiach, since ultimately such things add nothing to one’s love and awe of Hashem.
Sources:
Rambam Hilchot Melachim 11:1,4 12:2
Csar, I never heard that reason PBA mentioned, but I could see this as a possibility. The 6,000 is equivalent to the Sheshes Yimei Bireishis, the 6 days of creation.
There are opinions that hold that Moshiach must have arrived by Year 6,000 from Creation. So if we had a precise calendar of the years, it might prevent one from yearning for the redemption since it would be known by when the redemption must be.
I have my questions about this reason he mentioned, but I do not with to discuss them.
“On Purim I was pretty shocked when I heard that a father promised his kids cigarettes as a prize for doing a mitzvah. Totally backwards to me. “
It is assur, and backwards, and the father is, with all due respect, a total moron. To intentionally and as a reward give these carcinogens to his children? In his defense, certain sects/societies of our holy nation are, unfortunately, still backwards in this way and still consider smoking to be normal, and both young and old do smoke, R”L!
Back to the issue: absolutely do not marry him if he is a smoker or has been for any amount of time! If someone can swear that he’s been clean for, say, 6 months or a year, then MAYBE it’s worthy of consideration.
Smoking is a medical addiction and you will not be able to get him to stop. With tremendous Siyata Dishmaya, HE can stop, if he works at it. But quitting for a week doesn’t mean he’s won’t relapse.
Ask a doctor how long it takes to be very sure he will not relapse, and take it from there to a trustworthy Rav.
Remember that responsibilities usually increase as one gets older, and stress is only one thing that drives smokers back to this disgusting and devastating habit (which should never have started), Hashem Yishmor. Better to remain single and have one’s health than ch”V endanger one’s self in any way for any reason.
I believe it is definitely assur miDiOraysa, though how many issurim is a good question.
Regardless of how many issurim diOraysa AND diRabbanan, it is also extremely foolish behavior for both genders.
adams, I think your points are actually all reason why people should NOT move to Eretz Yisrael.
The crime committed by the savages in Eretz Yisrael is far, far worse and devastating than whatever you read in the paper in chu”l.
Your second point has at least 2 problems, in my view. One is that when a Jew acts improperly, that “camaraderie” affects you much more in Eretz Yisrael than in Chutz LaAretz precisely because in Chutz LaAretz every child is ingrained with the understanding that we are an am muvdal viKadosh, which is much harder to pull off in Eretz Yisrael when the other guy is a Jew, too. The second problem is that this lessens one’s tzipuy liyishua. Considering that’s one of the three “welcome” questions after 120…other than that, it is nice to be in a much more Jewish area.
As a bonus concern, the country is Zionist, not Jewish. Since Zionists try to replace Judaism with their kefirah, there are elements of Judaism in Zionism, too. But, practically and emotionally speaking, it is a Zionist society, not Jewish. If you cannot or wish to not differentiate between the two, please see the previous paragraph’s point.
The chinuch and other issues have already been mentioned repeatedly by various gedolim and modern-day poskim.
I don’t mean to imply that it’s not for anyone, CH”V. But your reasons are not ones I would use at a Nefesh BiNefesh seminar.
There are other options, like Cleveland, for out-of-town Yeshivos and seminaries, though Eretz Yisrael is, of course, not directly comparable to anywhere else, even if the overall educational gain is not necessarily better there than, lihavdil, in chutz LaAretz.
The neviim have some pretty scary things to say about what Eretz Yisrael will be like right before the geulah BB”A. Then again, there’s some scary stuff about “Melech Paras” and the rest of the world as well.
May Hashem watch over and protect all His children wherever they may be.
The “business handshake” is not a “wing” issue.
For instance, there are many people who are quite frum and not meikilim in halacha but who hold it’s okay to shake hands with a woman in a business context and the like, albeit (in my understanding) with provisions. Those are, say, if a woman extends her hand to shake yours AND it would cause her pain/shame if you, even very nicely, explain that you don’t shake hands with the opposite gender.
Ask your LOR, but this is not a “wing” issue.
I’m not sure where “awarenessvaad” conjured up that statistic from, but it’s certainly false.
While there likely are marriages that could use some improvement or revitalization, it is not “most” and definitely not “all”.
In fact, most are good, if not optimum or very close to it, BE”H, and not any worse than that, CH”V.
(Keep in mind, as well, that the economy is very challenging and when couples don’t have time/can’t make the time to spend with one another, this will certainly have an impact on that marriage. A generation ago, when women were typically at home or working part-time, and men worked typical 9-5 jobs with no 24/6 Blackberries and other challenges, it was easier to maintain and therefore raise up the level of one’s marriage. Today, however, with more job pressures on both spouses, 24/6 connectivity to the office (for everyone, not just the CEO), it takes much more effort to ensure the necessary post-marriage “dates” are scheduled. Some couples today may need some guidance in implementing this.)
As far as “going their own ways”, a healthy marriage is one where both spouses still maintain their own unique identities. There is nothing wrong with each doing their own thing, provided it is not detrimental to the relationship or, even better, actually contributes to the diversity of the marriage. For example, if the woman decides she wants to learn the piano and therefore signs up to take piano lessons, this is not a reason to question her marriage and, in fact, this could actually strengthen both her own self and her marriage.
As for giving but not having ever received, I think this is far-fetched, especially in today’s sophisticated society. People typically know what they need, at least most of what they need.
A good marriage is priceless, and definitely attainable, BE”H. It takes work, but if you are both honest and fair, maintain good communication with each other, and are careful in your Bein Adam LaChaveiro with each other in addition to Bein Adam LaMakom (not any particular order), the marriage should, BE”H, be set to be truly wonderful for both the couple and Hashem.
I appreciated your post and I understood you did not believe this behavior should be condoned.
On a different note, what exactly is inappropriately negative about the alleged attitude here towards MO? I perceive the attitude as frank and realistic, not intentionally negative.
But, for starters: Other than YU/Stern, is there a sizeable portion of any Orthodox Jewish institution whose graduates predictably and repeatedly abandon one or more areas of halacha as a direct result of their attending that institution? That’s just for starters. But that’s supposed to not bother anybody?
“stuck” made the most important point so far, in my opinion.
A trusted Rav should be consulted. Pashut pshat, generally speaking, however, is that it’s better to go to a non-Jewish institution where your hashkafos will not be under attack, rather than go to a Jewish institution (or anywhere else, like a broadway show) which will negatively affect your ruchnius.
I am not saying that YU/Stern will certainly negatively affect you spiritually, as the Stern graduates that I know already came from MO backgrounds, but given the objective reports from graduates of that institution, it’s certainly worth looking into.
Regarding the “shidduch crisis”, I could name you both boys and girls who I would have thought that they’d have been married years ago because they have it *all*, and others who I thought would have a hard time and yet married excellent spouses in good time, B”H. It’s all biydei shamayim. Mixing at parties, lichaora kineged halacha, is not the solution, even if it does undoubtedly create some matches.
As for Lakewood, while there *may* be some who are fully supported and more, this definitely is not universal, and it is motzi shem ra on Lakewood to imply that every Lakewood guy is this way. I do not know the exact numbers, of course, but I do know it is far from universal.
(Finally, I find it amusing but sad that wearing pants and having boyfriends is considered more MO, and, for some, an expected outcome of going to Stern, as one poster wrote. These behaviors are simply assur and no amount of “modernity” can be mattir that nor the other issurim that are given a pass due to “modernity”.)
YitzchokM and others:
IF the rumors I’ve read are true, I do NOT believe that there is any mikor in our holy Torah for these practices, and therefore these “chumros” are misguided and wrong and there is NO basis to say “that’s their mesorah and it’s okay”. Far from it, in fact.
It is absolutely not okay to condone those “chumros” AT ALL (forget “gold” or any other “standard”) IF those “chumros” are against the Torah, which it seems quite clear that they are against the Torah.
Regarding Kadesh Atzmicha BiMutar Lach and Al Tarbeh Sichah Im HaIshah as regarding one’s wife, any chumrah in these areas affects the wife, and could be extremely detrimental to the wife. So an ultra-competent and unbiased Rav MUST be consulted before taking on any hanhagos that can potentially cause such great and life-long harm to anyone, CH”V.
Particularly regarding speaking to one’s wife: a major part of the connection between a husband and wife is the day-to-day communication between husband and wife EVEN, AND ESPECIALLY (to an appropriate extent), “small-talk”. In fact, the retellling after 120 years of “afilu sicha kallah sheBein Ish LiIshto” is a POSITIVE, in that it is a ZECHUS for the husband to speak to his wife and give her the emotional satisfaction she needs by doing so. There is obviously a proper balance, and each woman will have a different personal level of need, as well. But, again, “Aseh Licha Rav” – if you have a question, ask an UNBIASED and ULTRA-COMPETENT Rav. But don’t be improperly machmir, especially when it’s at someone else’s expense. This goes for “Kadesh Atzmicha BiMuttar Lach” as well.
Our Torah’s ways are Darchei Noam, not Darcei Tzaar, CH”V. It behooves all to be sure they conduct themselves, particularly for matters of bein adam laChaveiro and **Kal SheKein for devarim sheBein Ish LiIshto**, within the bounds of halacha, and biDrarchei Noam. Our DEAR and HOLY brothers and sisters deserve nothing less.
Finally, even if those “chumros” MIGHT have been **thought** to have been somehow within the Torah’s guidelines, AND ONLY FOR A **SELECT** FEW, that was ONLY at some earlier point in history. But given the massive changes that have occurred since then, once again, it seems absolutely impossible to halachicly condone any of this today for ANYONE AT ALL.
I do believe it’s high time that schools stopped this mistaken “oi” for “oh”; it’s inserting a “yud” into the word; how could it not change the meaning?
MiddlePath: I found blockhead’s post, which you agreed with, to be perturbing and I don’t know why you still back it despite some points like “quf”. To justify the saf as “t” because that’s how people say it, is, for kodseh purposes, prima facie absurd, not to mention in a dikduk discussion.
What he writes is anyways very puzzling: it is much more incorrect to use a “t” than using a samech for a saf. It may be more precisely pronounced as a “th” rather than a “s”, but an Ashkenzaic “s” is much closer to a “th” than a Sefardic “t” is.
While on the topic, the sefardi “oh” is somewhere between a kamatz and a cholam, but is not a true cholam. It is better than “oi”, though.
Regarding the chaf and Spanish “Guadalajara”, their “j” in that context is awfully close to our ches. So the ashkenaz “ches” is actually quite reasonable.
Again, the typical Ashkenazi havarah is off only in a matter of degrees, as noted. The sefardi havara is simply off, with saf and kamatz completely disregarded, pronounced identically to “taf” and “patach”, respectively (and even “oh” is not fully pronounced).
Many Elter-Bubbies and Zeides, at this point, met in person under various conditions, but were not simply introduced to each other with the parents listening in. They were also born in a different world, and what worked then does not necessarily work now.
Beshow may still work for some individuals. While it is also true that you do not really know someone until (well after) you marry the person, you can, however, learn a very surprisingly large amount during dating and it is therefore wrong to deny the opportunity to date to those people who need that time.
So it is quite primitive and therefore unrealistic to expect two relatively sophisticated people to live in consonance with diracheha darchei noam when they are not given the time to determine whether or not they wish to spend the next 100 or so years with this other person. Even if they don’t get divorced, CH”V, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been happier had they been allowed to date first, even with their current spouse. Again, diracheha darchei noam, not necessarily the derech of the culture of what happens to have been done many, many years ago. This does not mean that every couple who’ve dated are happy. But that also doesn’t mean you might as well make their odds of success dramatically worse.
You also can’t compare the divorce rates from one to another (i.e. beshow to dating), because the main reasons for a divorce in a beshow is obviously due to the beshow and denial of dating. Whereas by dating, it is external, which could be anything from something covered-up before-hand to simple immaturity in married life to lack of communication to other things, all of which have nothing to do with the process of how they meet, when that process is dating. By a beshow, however, there is little, if any, time to determine if any of this could potentially be an issue.
So if you take out the “external” factors, it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them. On the other hand, it’s quite easy to see how the couple might not have divorced since they were denied the opportunity to date in favor of beshowing them.
If it were just a matter of “live and let live”, then I would not write most of what I’ve written. But I feel that many people who are put through this beshow system are being denied that which they need, and which has painful and costly ramifications later on, not just on them, but on their families and children, etc.
So it’s not okay to just say “it’s okay for them to do it”; it’s not, at least for some of them, and those who feel it might not be for them should find a neutral Rav to discuss the matter with.
May Hashem be misameiach all of His people and redeem us all BB”A.
MiddlePath, I disagree that “they..are the ones doing it right”.
For divrei Kodesh purposes (speaking in Israel for secular purposes is a different matter):
Just because Ashkenaz doesn’t have the precision to distinguish a saf from a samech does not mean that they should revert to Academic/Modern/Zionist Hebrew (adapted from sefardi havarah specifically disregarding their Mesorah of Ashkenaz havarah) and use a tav. A Saf is still far better.
Similarly, the non-guttural ches is arguably better than a simple imitation of the letter “hay”, since Ashkenaz does not have a mesorah for the guttural ches.
On the flip side, the non-askenazic havarah does not distinguish between a patach and a kamatz. That can’t be authentic, either…(Nor do both Ashkenaz and Sefard differentiate between a tes and a tav. So if the similarity is an issue…)
Ironically, the Israeli children are taught and/or speak a real cholent of a havarah with mixed ois and ohs (worse than their American counterparts who are generally consistent one way or the other), and even take it a step further with things like dropping the “hey” altogether and pronouncing it like an aleph.
Uncorrupted Ashkenaz (ohs) and Teiman are the closest things to the genuine deal, with Teiman being closer.
chaimboruch, that’s a ridiculous comparison.
Day 31 is not a major life-affecting halacha, very unlike the nidon didan. So, yes, Day 31 is not necessary to be up-front about when any chassan/kallah would learn about such shitos in their classes. But none of the (non-Gur, certainly) girls will learn about those of the nidon didan.
Mo is not relevant here.
I have NO IDEA if the rumors I’ve encountered are or are not true, but my understanding is that there are MANY more chumros, and **some of those are of a MUCH more life-changing nature**, than “walking a few steps ahead”.
I would advise DEFINITELY consulting a trusted family Rav, JUST IN CASE it is an issue for this particular potential couple.
May there be many beautiful simchas in Klal Yisrael.
Since this has devolved into a debate about Chassidic secular education, can anyone name any Chassidic schools that are proud of their secular studies department? I’d be interested to know.
I’m not sure why everyone is blasting “more”, even if his comment may have been uncalled for. He’s certainly correct about not sweeping things under a rug, and I cannot personally recall meeting any chassidic-educated person who, straight out of school, could speak English as properly as his/her non-Chassidic counterparts. I’m sure there could be, and there are certainly many successful Chassidic-educated business-people.
The point is, though, is that $3,800 getting you a real education, so it is a basis for comparison for this discussion, or is it essentially babysitting as he alleged, in which case it is not comparable to the other schools which have serious secular studies departments?
Interesting question. You can add “Gam Zu LiTova” to your question. In other words, why even acknowledging “Gam zu LiTova” if it’s all for the good.
I wonder if the answer is that good and bad is, indeed, as we perceive it relating to our small world, but not necessarily from a long-term and certainly not from a global perspective.
For example, if someone leaves his phone at home and loses 30 minutes returning to get it, that is definitely “bad” since nobody likes to be hassled and lose time, etc.
But it could be that, as a result of this “bad” delay, something good would happen *later/ultimately*. Maybe not. Either way, we don’t usually know.
But at the time one is late/delayed, I think the most appropriate reaction is gam zu liTova, meaning it’s for the *ultimate* best (and be makir tov for that) even though it is still very annoying now.
Hakaras HaTov is always appropriate, even in this case, but it’s obviously different than if someone gives a well-received shiur, where there’s no doubt that’s a “good” thing, and one would be even more grateful to Hashem for that good.
I agree that this issue should not be ignored. I know which “frum” guy in Albany you’re referring to, and I agree that the likely answer is viHaKesef Yaaneh Es HaKol and that this is wrong. I also agree that small fires can easily lead to big ones.
But I am hopeful that BE”H these fires will be put out, not that they will be stoked and intentionally spread. We will see, BE”H, as this unfolds, and a new President can certainly turn things around, if he wishes to do so.
Regardless, **we** are certainly incomparable to sedom, and even the secular culture around us is, at this point, very, very much incomparable to sedom.
Health, please take off the tin-foil cap. I have no agenda here other than defending Klal Yisrael from an inadvertent attack by someone who I’m sure meant well. Please see my post after yours for further clarification. And I’ve agreed with you many times that toeiva marriage should not be legalized, so you’re the one projecting (obviously false) things on to me. Please, stick to the facts.
Regarding the wording of the OP, the “in some ways” portion is irrelevant to the issues at hand. I still maintain the post was just as off and incorrect even with those words, though, as I said, I believe she meant well and those words do further clarify that she meant well.
I think I’ve made my point already, but I’ll do so again regarding the toeiva travesty: **We** are not representative of society’s moral deficiencies and society does not represent our status as the Am Segulah MiKal HaAmim. So just because certain states have passed this abominable legislation, this DOES NOT REFLECT ON US nor does it damn society as a whole either, despite these few terrible blots on the overall fabric of society.
As I mentioned earlier, even the secular news media picked up that Jews voted out a fellow Jew in favor of a non-Jew (a Catholic) because this Jewish politician had the nerve to not only vote for this toeiva but to defend it that he had to vote for it AS A JEW.
So **we** do NOT “cover up the evil”.
Besides, there are plenty of states still, B”H, that have not introduced such terrible legislation. Whereas by Noach, the Torah clearly tells us “Ki Mal’ah HaAretz Chamas…” It was universal across the land.
So as I said, there is no comparison between this generation and that of the Mabul, despite a minority of states considering/passing toeiva bills, R”L.
The copying music comparison to the GREAT AND MALICIOUS EVIL of Sedom is even more incorrect, as I mentioned above. Please see my previous post.
Regarding abortion and toeiva and lots more, I agree that secular society is getting worse. But that is them, not us. And there was no Klal Yisrael, the Am Kadosh, in the Dor HaMabul. Further, lihavdil, the Catholics are still very much against abortion and even forced the President to backtrack on a contraception bill.
But most importantly, **we** still know it’s wrong, so I still think your OP should have been worded very differently. And as this disaster of “gay marriage”, CH”V, unfolds over the next two decades or so, even many goyim will realize what a travesty this is, particularly because the children in these homes will have been deprived a healthy normal childhood.
Regarding copying music, I don’t know where you get this idea that “people copy cd’s so much” and that therefore “the Jewish music industry is struggling mightily and may fold altogether.”
Of the millions of Jews who consume this music, how many do you know? And do you have access to Aderet’s books that you are so sure that CD copying has that effect, that they can’t profit from a CD?
(My understanding is that it so happens that the CDs are really a marketing expense to get the singer to be “known” so they can be invited to perform at concerts, where the real money in that industry is. That doesn’t mean people should copy, but I strongly disagree that many people do so.)
You’re really accusing a large portion of Klal Yisrael of going against halacha, and you really have absolutely no idea if you are right because you don’t know that many people. So I think that assertion, in particular, is uncalled for and should be retracted.
I assume you meant well in trying to remind people that copying CDs takes away money from the producers, et al. But baselessly accusing “so many people” is not the right way to do that.
Health, please don’t label me anything, including a hypocrite, as I think you’re being a bit out of line (and wrong, both in the technical definition and in this particular case as well).
Yes, I was and still am very against any government legalizing this toeiva, and even the goyim know it is maaseh sedom. I have not changed that position, CH”V. But that does not make it correct to lump such governments in the same GENERAL and OVERALL category as Sedom. It is also a gross lack of Hakaras HaTov to do so.
Hashem runs the world, and He can be sovel this avla that THE UMOS HaOLAM committed, too, if He wishes. He can also put it into their hearts to realize how stupid and brainless this bill really is when children are considered, as I wrote above. That would solve that.
But we, Klal Yisrael, who dwell on this Earth **AND WHO EVEN VOTED OUT A JEWISH PROPONENT OF THIS TOEIVA (and favored instead his Catholic opponent who was against it)**, as I mentioned, can only do what we can and certainly cannot be blamed for this avla the Umos committed despite the OP’s erroneous suggestion otherwise.
The OP wrote 2 points which I thought were very off and incorrect. I didn’t “put words in your mouth”, but rather explained to you what I was defending. Again:
OP wrote: “we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. Again, we are absolutely not in the same league, sport, etc. as the evil barbarians of that wicked dor. We have unbelievable Torah, Avoda and Chesed, which are the three pillars that uphold this world, and it is this incredible Am HaNivchar, as it yearns for the geulah, that does so 24/7/365. We still desperately need the true geulah shileimah, may Hashem redeem us BB”A. But we are not at all what the OP wrote.
She also compared an unknown number of people who allegedly engage in “CD copying” to the wicked Sedom practice of a large group of people intentionally ganging up together and each taking less than a peruta’s worth of merchandise until the physical merchandise was all gone. Again, there is no comparison between CD copying and that evil, not in the act itself, nor the scale on which the respective acts were committed nor on the respective intents. Once again, to take the unknown number of these particular Jews and extrapolate that to comparing our entire People to Sedom is clearly very, very wrong.
Klal Yisrael has suffered so much already, R”L. If anyone feels the need to be mikatreig, cH”V, let them please ask their Rav for answers instead, rather than being mikatreig in a public forum when, at the very least, they could frame their concerns with words like “IT IS bad to do…” rather than “WE ARE bad”, CH”V.
I’m not sure what happened to my other response, so I’ll be brief here: my “defense” of today’s generation has nothing to do with a shot-in-the-dark limud zichus nor can it be compared to Sedom.
Please read the relevant peirushim and midrashim. Sedom was evil, as in E.V.I.L. While it is wrong to condone and legalize this toeiva, this is a far, far different culture than sedom. This country has been very kind to its citizens (and gives citizenship rights to anyone born on its soil). Whereas Sedom savagely and torturously murdered any guests who happened to pass through.
Again, please don’t be so foolish as to blame secular culture’s morass on the very people, Hashem’s am HaNivchar, who do what they can to rise above it, BE”H. And, similarly, it is a chutzpah and a tremendous lack of hakaras HaTov and/or simple surface-thinking for one to write off the USA as another Sedom because of a particular failing when there is so much more good that it does and that which sedom never dreamed of doing.
I do not think we are anywhere close to the Dor HaMabul and Sedom, and I amazed that people can be motzi laaz on the entire uma haKedosha of Hashem like this.
Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.
Regarding gezel, there is a machlokes whether copying CDs/music is or is not gezel, in certain circumstances. Regardless of this machlokes, the chamas of the other doros mentioned was far worse. There, they, in groups, stole a physical object until there was no inventory left, and with that exact intent, and did so as a “naval birshus HaTorah”; meaning: since it was less than a shaveh pruta, that it was lichatchila muttar. Whereas today, someone who has a taava to copy music, AND knows it’s not proper (regardless of whether or not it’s gezeila as there are other issurim to potentially contend with) may not gain additional olam haba for doing so, but I wouldn’t dare compare that to sedom.
Klal Yisrael has much, indeed, to be proud of, B”H, as we wait the geulah sheleimah BB”A.