HaKatan

Chaim, your stories are irrelevant, as noted.
And trying to prove that working for them implies any sort of acceptance of Zionism is even more foolish.

In MiaKatovitz Ad 5 Iyar, the author noted how Rabbi Kasher forged his “kol korei” with the big reishis tzemichas lie. As it happens, Rav Ovadiah quoted that Kol Korei not knowing that it was a forgery. The Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kasher “the biggest treifa”.

His opinion then was the “urgent need”, as you called it, to move to E”Y, with permission of the nations, and very much also not to politically rule there.

No, you can’t “keep on going”, because you haven’t brought any sources and there are no others because those don’t exist. Please go ahead and source them.

Zionism of any flavor is idolatry and heresy. Period. No matter how many siyumim anyone makes.

Chaim:
Back to your other question:
Of course the “mesiras nefesh” of Zionist soldiers does NOT at all make them holy. What kind of silly and heretical question is that (it’s because of Zionist idolatry, of course)? One has zero to do with the other. The Torah defines what is and is not holiness. IDF service is the exact opposite of holiness, of course.

Chaim87:
Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote that “Mizrachi”/”Religious Zionism” is idolatry (and heresy). That makes the answer to your question obvious, despite your refusal to accept the Torah’s indisputable view, as written above: while these particular ones may be very well-meaning, they are of course not “holy fine Jews” if they violate the inviolable prohibition of A”Z. What kind of silly question is that?

And, again, no there absolutely nowhere in the Torah that allows for any form of Zionism, as the gedolim wrote and as should also be obvious to any Jewish child untainted by Zionist idolatry.

Chaim87:
You’re reaching new lows attempting to defend the indefensible.
The name being the same as Rav Rhines’ yeshiva doesn’t change that Zionism is treif and Rav Elchonon did not allow emigration to a spiritual makom sakana but held that YTV was not a spiritual makom sakana.

No, there is zero source for Zionism having its roots in Torah CH”V. That’s simply absurd.

You wrote:
“Can anyone deny that many hesder boys are fine frum Jews?”

Yes, all the gedolim, from Rav Elchonon to the Brisker Rav and all the rest denied exactly that, despite your inability to read their plain text stating exactly that. Rav Elchonon, for example, wrote that “Religious Zionism” is A”Z and religion “biShituf”. That’s exactly what it is, no matter how many siyumim they make. That’s the sad reality.

But you know better than all the gedolim.

anon1m0us:
“Kol HaPosel…”

You are being motzi laaz on Rav Elchonon. He never forbade moving to America. He advised against doing so via the agency of specific “Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist” “yeshivas”, and instead advised doing so via Torah VoDaath.

ZSK:
Chazal’s dictum of “Kol HaPosel…” comes to mind.
The “Religious Zionism” is actually much worse today than it was a century ago because they are the most fanatical and idolatrous Zionists, much more so than their co-religionists the secular Zionists because the “Religious” ones superimpose the Zionist idolatry and heresy onto, liHavdil, the Torah.

Your last statement is silly. By your “logic” we are all CH”V “messianists”, as in Jews for J, because we all believe in Mashiach.
Zionism means, at a minimum, the idolatry and heresy that Jews are a “nation” – as opposed to the truth that we are a religion only – and the big Zionist lie that the Zionist “State” represents Judaism and the Jews. No, believing in שיבת ציון does not at all make one a Zionist. Why do you write things to confuse innocent people?

Imagine if a large percentage of Jews were R”L L”A believers in Jews for J. Of course, Jews who claim fidelity to only G-d would be absolutely horrified and would need to drill the point that it is not at all okay to also be a believer in Jews for J.

Now, in reality, Zionism is infinitely worse. Zionism is heretical, in addition to being idolatrous (like Jews for J), and is also a replacement ideology for Judaism. Yes, given that Zionist propaganda and idolatry is so utterly pervasive, it is of utmost importance to be crystal-clear and strong that Zionism (the indefensible idolatry and heresy that you routinely attempt to defend here) is absolutely treif.

“And if he’s honest, he’ll admit so. He was just raised in a Mizrachi environment and chose the opinion of the Yechidim like Rav Kook & Rav Soloveitzik over the many others who disagreed with them.”

Rabbi Kook and Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik did not have valid Torah opinions, as per all the gedolim, who condemned either their opinions and/or themselves. In fact, the gedolim stated things like (Rav Shach, about one of those, in this example) “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh ayin”.

Kuvult:
If memory serves, Rav Hirsch notes that it’s the zecher of amaleik, meaning any remnant of their practices and values, that is the issue. That, not genes.

Chaim:
You keep repeating the same nonsense that people were Zionists and therefore Zionism is not kefirah. Zionism is kefirah. Period. There are no two ways about that. It so happens that a certain gadol was very happy when the State was established, but when he read from the Satmar Rav about it, he told him that you convinced me and I was wrong. So, yes, that is called confusion on their part and no, it is not revising history. And therefore you shouldn’t take stories from the 1940s as your gospel. As the Brisker Rav stated, “the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the eigel”. That means that it was indeed confusing then (and still is now for many, including you). Rav Frank was not Zionist. Even Rav Elyashiv, who worked in rabbinics for the Zionists, protested vehemently against Shas joining the WZO, calling that a nevallah. So, no, he also was not a Zionist. You just keep throwing around names with no documentation and no proof.

Again, the letters and sefarim by gedolim against Rabbi Kook are public, were published, and you can find them if you choose to do so. Rabbi Kook wrote kefirah, and it’s being spread until today, and it is unquestionably and undeniably kefirah. Like the soccer player line that they will be on a greater level of prophecy than Moshe Rabbeinu and that the entire Torah will be revealed through them. The Gerrer Rebbe wrote specifically against that line.

AAQ:
I don’t understand why this is a question of them being “frightened”. This whole premise seems silly. They were not frightened of him, of course.

Since he had political power, and at some point they needed his assistance to annul some Zionist shmad or whatever it was, they had no choice but to use respectful titles when addressing him. If people choose to take that over every published sefer and letter from across the spectrum that severely condemned either him or his works, or even to claim that it makes it that some did hold and some did not, then they are obviously fooling themselves.

A separate point is that it’s very possible that certain people didn’t know about Rabbi Kook’s heretical works and that’s why they seemed to have “held of him”.

Bottom line is that his works are available to read, and the shocking kefirah therein is still exactly that, and the many gedolim (not just rabbis, but genuine masters of Torah and only Torah and without outside influences) over the decades severely condemned either him and/or his works, including in writing, some of which have been mentioned. It is silly to respond with stories about how x wrote nice titles to him.

Regarding the American side, the three may have worked with each other but, again, that doesn’t mean that Rav Moshe would have allowed public gemara lectures to women, while Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik taught them himself. Nor does it mean that Rav Moshe (and, liHavdil, Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik) would have allowed their official writings to claim that their predecessor was atzmus uMahus in a body. Not at all. Instead, it means that they had a working relationship for when that was needed, not that they in any way approved of him. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for all the tuma in America. Yet, Rav Aharon also worked with him, when he felt it was needed. Same idea with Rabbi Kook. I don’t understand why this is so difficult to understand.

somejewiknow:
I appreciate it.

Rav Yedid points out that it’s possible that a “ruach shtus” overcame Rabbi Kook (due to his being “mekushar kvar im ruach haZman, as the Gerrer Rebbe wrote, or for whatever other reasons), which is what lead him to write (and speak) as he did, but, regardless, and this is the point, the content of those writings is heretical and absolutely unacceptable no matter what he was or wasn’t.

I would also point out that this is not merely academic. First, his writings are being actively promulgated worldwide, not just published in some books if someone wants, which is bad enough. Second, there were physical consequences, even then, to his embrace of nationalism (to which the Gerrer Rebbe referred), like what lead to the Chevron Massacre.

AAQ:
Rabbi Kook was politically powerful. Therefore, when gedolim needed to deal with him, they had to address him as he expected. The Brisker Rav convened a beis din for every single title that he gave to Rabbi Kook when he sent him a letter. Same idea with the Chazon Ish.

But why look at stories? Look at sefarim kedoshim by gedolim that address the terrible things that Rabbi Kook wrote.

SQUARE_ROOT:
Nothing about what I wrote is in any way indicative of Hamas and Hezbollah, despite your Zionist idolatrous take on the same. But the modern Amalekites actually are, of course, the Zionists, as Rav Elchonon quoted from the Chofetz Chaim. Please stop spewing Zionist nonsense in these boards. Surely, Arutz Sheva or something would be very happy for you to do so there.

Zionism is shmad. Period. Zionism’s core and purpose is changing Jews and Judaism to Zionists and Zionism. It’s that simple. Therefore, no matter what promises the Zionist make about letting the frum Jews there “preserve their identity”, it’s just a smokescreen. Yes, they might or might not still wear the same clothes as before when the Zionists are done brainwashing them in their army. But the Zionists will do all they can to accomplish their core heresy and stated goal of changing these Jews into Zionists.

And calling this hasmonean is a rich irony (but absolutely par for the course) coming from the Zionists who are way worse than the hellenists against whom the real hasmoneans fought.

m.o.m:
That might depend on the community. In general, many communities have community-type BY schools, where they have all types (within the school’s standards). Also, one would think that the larger Jewish communities would have more options. Finally, I am not familiar with the schools, myself, but I thought there is at least one school (in NJ, as it happens) that does have what you describe.

They must have some special zechuyos. Wow.

SBYG:
Sorry to hear of your pain. May the new year ahead, and even sooner, bring you much joy and kol tuv.
I would suggest discussing this with real daas Torah who doesn’t necessarily know you, so you can BE”H get a real answer. Meanwhile, for whatever little this is worth:

I think your question is a very fair one, but the answer would likely be that women are holier by nature, and therefore they don’t need those additional mitzvos including learning Torah as do men, and therefore they can raise children and all that even without needing those extra mitzvos. Consider: why would Hashem set up the world that the women raise the children, if women do not have those Torah and mitzvos that only men have, which would mean that, according to what you understood from what you were taught, children will be raised in a highly deficient way? The answer is seemingly that women don’t need those mitzvos, not that Hashem merely exempted women from them because women are so busy. Also, if women did need them, then Hashem would definitely have figured out a way, as you asked, even though they have children to raise. Of course, He would not “short-change” a woman just because she has a job to do! But women obviously do not need them.

A woman is the akeres haBayis, the one who not only raises the children but also helps the husband progress in his avodas Hashem. And she can accomplish all that even without a chiyuv talmid Torah which is a man’s job to do day and night! A woman, therefore, is obviously on a much different level than a man, not just that she happens to have a different job than does a man. That takes tremendous kedusha, something which a man achieves via learning Torah and doing mitzvos, and which a woman seems to achieve with just the mitzvos that Hashem requires of her as a woman

Regarding accepting mitzvos upon yourself like your brother, you’re still making the same commitment to Hashem to follow His ways and do what He wants you to do; your job happens to be different because you are on a different level, as mentioned, even though his commitment is necessarily more demanding. But you both get to the same place; you just start higher. Chazal say, for example, that “Eishes chaveir kiChaveir”. It doesn’t say that she’s a good assistant to him or that she did her job well; it says that she is considered to be like him. That means that the wife of the Vilna Gaon was considered to be like him even though she didn’t learn 24/7 and didn’t come up with all the Torah that he did, etc.

It does not seem that the curse of Chava has anything to do with the above. Notice that it doesn’t say vehu “yisGadeil” or “yisRomeim” Mimeich. It says yimshol. That’s very, very different.

I hope nobody is silly enough to label you a feminist just because you’re asking a very reasonable question (even if my humble answer is not the answer). I would also add that as you grow more and especially once you marry a ben aliyah, the above should become much clearer to you as you live and experience it, BE”H.

chaim_baruch:

You wrote: “…over 7 million Jews live in Eretz Yisrael. Perhaps, they should not have come “like a wall or en masse” in violation of one the three oaths? Yes, because it would have made, more sense to die in Hitler’s (yemach shmo) Europe, Stalin’s Soviet Union or all the Arab countries in the Middle East. Oops, our bad. But staying alive supersedes any Aggagdata in Mesechet Ketubot.”

You obviously aren’t being serious (or, if you are, you’re just mindlessly parroting Zionist nonsense and lies). The Holocaust happened because of the Zionists. As well, the Zionists did their part to ensure that Jews burned in Hitler’s ovens because Zionism was and is above all else in the Zionist idolatrous faith. Jews were also doing just fine in the Arab countries until the Zionists invaded the holy land and set the whole region on fire.

As to the “aggadata”, it is brought down liHalacha on the spot by numerous poskim, and the Rambam himself invokes them as halachically binding in his Iggeres Teiman. The Maharal happens to hold that they are yehareig viAl yaavor, as it happens, too.

simcha613:
The same question could have been asked by parents who wanted to know why other parents didn’t feed their children to the molech idol when that idol was in vogue. Regardless, may Hashem please keep your children and all His children safe and well.

You also left out the context here that the chareidim are the native Jews of Ottoman-controlled Palestine while the Zionist interlopers chose to invade and fight the British to get them to leave so that they could pretend to have sovereignty and their forever wars as all the gedolim said would happen. The Zionists chose this fight – and against the wishes of the chareidim living there at the time the Zionists invaded – so, the Zionists can send their idolaters to that fight.

Finally, you left out that joining the Zionist army means converting from Judaism to Zionism and being compelled to violate one or more of the gimmel chamuros for which one must give up one’s life rather than violate.

SQUARE_ROOT:
The Zionist paradise will surely end when G-d decides to do so, even before Mashiach comes according to some. No, that does not mean any harm to any Jews, CH”V.

It’s not unity of Telz and YU, of course. YU is treif, of course.

That Telz allowed a RIETS rabbinic faculty (can’t call him “Rosh Yeshiva”, because that title is applicable only to a Yeshiva, not to anything in YU) to be maspid Rav Ausband has nothing to do with YU.

ReflectiveNotes:
One could ask the same about the Eigel: let’s agree what the eigel should never have been made. But once it was made – and look at all the “achdus” and the miracles of the satan making it literally dance in front of them – what is the point of being anti-eigel? What is the alternative (especially given that the erev rav-influenced nationalists murdered Chur – whom Moshe Rabbeinu specifically appointed in his absence – because he spoke against the idol)? Of course, Hashem didn’t agree, and struck dead all those idolaters.

Decades ago, the Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives, then the Zionists could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe there while ending the Zionist nightmare (for Jews). But even if that UN option were no longer true – and nobody can prove that, but even IF it were no longer true – the major point of “anti-Zionism” is to believe in G-d and His Torah and not in idols.

In other words, G-d runs this world and He doesn’t want the Zionist idol and shmad of His children. The Brisker Rav noted that the Zionist State is the greatest achievement of the satan since the eigel. In hindsight of a century of cataclysmic Zionist damage, this is beyond obvious, too. So, the fact that Hashem very much doesn’t want that State is absolutely true, regardless of the illusory power of the Zionists. So, even if there is no practical human alternative at this time, we still are obligated to turn away from idols and to daven to Hashem for a salvation of His choosing in accordance with His Torah, and recognize that He can do anything, including ending Zionism and vastly improving the lives of the Jews there and everywhere – including but not limited to the geulah sheleimah BB”A.

The other related problem is that praying for that idol gives it spiritual power, as our prayers are very powerful. In fact, as the Brisker Rav noted, that’s what caused the idol State to come into being in the first place: because Jews davened for it instead of the geulah. Both he and the Satmar Rav stated that the geulah would have come then, but that they ruined it. The latter writes this in VaYeChi, if memory serves. So, nobody should repeat that mistake. Daven for the geulah, and that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and well always, and never for the idol. It really is that simple.

There’s so much more that could be said on the topic, BE”H, but that should at least be a start.

Simcha613:
“UJM- “The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.”

I think the physical destruction of the Holocaust and the Soviet Union are miles ahead… as well as the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US (in terms of intermarriage).”

The physical destruction of the Holocaust was, of course, caused by that same Zionism and Zionists, including the Zionists lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their respective countries because that was bad for Zionism. And the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US is an after-effect/because of that same Zionist-caused Holocaust.

“I think many ehriche Yidden are sympathetic to Zionism even when disagree with something. I saw one such charedi British rav being asked by not-so-observant Yidden whether he is a Zionist, and he replied “yes, in the meaning of hamechazir shechinato l’Zion”.”

This is pathetic and sick. It’s like if someone asks if you’re a Jews for J member then you say, yes, in the meaning of Jew. Zionism is the total opposite of Judaism and, in fact, exists specifically to change Judaism into Zionism and Jews into Zionists. That’s a total conversion, not merely a political club.