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yankel berel:
You are conflating (as Zionists always do) two different matters.
Regarding the cataclysmic mess that the Zionists made in the holy land, and against the wishes of the Jews there, it is indeed only reasonable that the Zionists attempt to clean up their own mess and leave the Jews out of it. Of course, the wicked Zionists are attempting to shmad the Jews there, and at levels never seen before, and harass and impoverish the Jews there.The other point is self-defense, to which all agree that one must defend one’s self, particularly if leaving the area of conflict is not possible. But the Zionist army is not relevant to that point, as the Zionist army is a shmad factory with all three of the gimmel chamuros, so that’s obviously a non-starter, regardless.
The nonsense about evacuating 8 million people is a straw man argument. As written above, if the Zionists wanted to end their forever wars – and the billions of dollars they needlessly waste each year on “defense” – they could go to the nations who would find a solution that would ensure the safety of the Jews (far better than the Zionists ever could) while ending Zionism and the mess the Zionists made, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago. But, of course, the Zionists would never do that, because, in their idolatrous anti-Jewish faith, Zionism is above all else including Jewish lives, as the Zionists demonstrated more than amply during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
DaMoshe:
You are a Zionist idolater who falsely and baselessly accuses others of “hate”. As an idolater attempting to spread that idolatry here, it is you who is showing hatred to G-d, His Torah and His people.DaMoshe:
Pathetic non-answer.The idolaters have no answer because, as mentioned, since no group of Orthodox Jewish women from then until now ever felt the need to learn Talmud, that obviously means that the problem (of “needing” to do so) is MO, not Judaism, of course.
Return to full Torah allegiance rather than a maskilic dilution of the same.
But, since you mentioned hate, the only ones to whom that applies are:
“Halo misanecha Hashem esna…”
So, are you implying that you Zionist idolaters fall into that category? I would hope not.All the Zionists are so aduk to their idol that they simply cannot see reality, no matter what anyone says.
As the Chazon Ish noted, one morning, we will wake up to discover that the Zionist “State” simply no longer exists.
The Brisker Rav (if memory serves) stated that Mashiach will (of course) take control of the land but not directly from the Zionists.
The Satmar Rav stated that everything (infrastructure?) the Zionists made will be destroyed and that, yes, if the Zionists wanted to resolve their cataclysmic problem they caused, they could go to the nations and they would find a way.The truth obviously is that there certainly could be a way (or many ways) in which the Zionist paradise could be changed into a normal country under control of Esav without any Jews CH”V being hurt. But the Zionists would never even consider that, because Zionism is the top priority in that idolatrous faith, far higher than even Jewish lives. Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
I don’t understand why these Zionist idolaters continue to insist they are right and making silly claims like the Satmar Rav does not pasken for all of Jewry and the like.
This is all silly, and all you Zionist idolaters have gotten your answers to your non-questions many times already but you just keep repeating them and copy/pasting random things.
The S”A quote about fighting off enemies has zero to do with the shmad Zionist army. It is yehareig viAl yaavor to join that army. That army is a den of shmad and all three of the gimmel chamuros, as even the “Religious Zionist” boys are crying to their rabbis. Please stop with this nonsense.
The Satmar Rav was not the one who invented the oaths and their halachic applicability. But he does bring down numerous poskim through the ages, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO the Rambam, who invoked them as halachically binding. The midrash indicates that the oaths were the reason or the unimaginable ocean of Jewish blood spilled in response to Ben Koziva’s rebellion in Beisar. And on and on and on. Even the famous supposed quote from the Or Sameach that the Zionists love to distort (as mentioned above), clearly indicates that the oaths are halacha. Period. Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara.
Regarding the quote from Rav Yaakov, assuming it is accurate and in context, even if he did think so then, he certainly did not remain with that opinion. He wrote to the Satmar Rav that – as the latter had written that if even one Jew is convinced then all the effort he put into writing his sefarim – the Satmar Rav has succeeded in that he has convinced Rav Yaakov.
Regardless, the Zionists have shmaded generations of Jews, and are feverishly attempting to finally destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y.
Again, this is all silly. If your need to worship your Zionist idol keeps you coming back to post more nonsense, that doesn’t obligate anyone to respond.
AAQ:
No, not at all.You cannot compare this MO delusion of girls “needing to learn gemara” to the pre-BY era of the CC.
As you, yourself, wrote, the CC recognized then that a problem existed, and Hashem allowed Ms. Schenirer to come up with an idea to address the problem which was fully in accordance with halacha, which the CC indeed approved. But nobody disagreed that there was a problem and, for that matter, the gedolim agreed to the solution, too.As opposed to this MO delusion of women needing to learn gemara, there, both back then and continuing all the way until today – no group of Orthodox women ever felt/feel that they need to learn gemara. There never was such a problem; it’s an MO delusion (stemming from haskala/modernity, of course). As mentioned, if MO would instead be Orthodox then they, too, wouldn’t have this problem.
Your second paragraph is not addressing what I wrote. I did not argue that women cannot be doctors or the like. Regardless, as mentioned, it is still an MO delusion/modernity to decide that girls “need to learn gemara” regardless of, liHavdil, how much secular knowledge they do or don’t have. One has nothing to do with the other.
DaMoshe:
His article is indeed well-written.
But, by “great”, you presumably mean for today’s maskilim who disregard mesorah in favor of anything from the talmud professor of YU (who also disregarded mesorah, especially his family’s mesorah by his adopting the idolatry and heresy of Zionism) that they call “the Rav”.Rav Moshe Feinstein was the Posek HaDor.
As the article points out, he ruled that women may not study even mishnayos – never mind gemara – other than pirkei avos.Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was “responsible for all the tuma in America” according to Rav Aharon Kotler, and he also was the head of “Mizrachi”, meaning “Religious Zionist” idolatry and heresy, in America, so his opinion is anyways irrelevant to Orthodox Judaism. The talmud lecture he gave to the Stern College women was also obviously not permitted.
Rabbi Twersky’s attempt to justify his grandfather’s non-halachic pirtza mentioned above simply doesn’t work, and it is also absurd to compare that to the Chofetz Chaim’s heter of teaching chumash and mussar, as he did.
Rabbi Twersky writes, “If ever circumstances dictate that study of the Oral Law is necessary to provide a firm foundation for faith, such study becomes obligatory and obviously lies beyond the pale of any prohibition.” Even if that “heter” were theoretically true – still, none of the Orthodox (i.e., non-MO) schools ever dreamed that “circumstances dictate that study of the Oral Law is necessary to provide a firm foundation for faith”. So, no, of course his pirtza and disregarding of mesorah by permitting that which had always been forbidden were not needed and, yes, it obviously was “an instance of modernism”, and not “Torah intuition” unlike Rabbi Twersky’s attempt to claim otherwise.
As Rabbi Jachter quoted from the Satmar Rav, “the Chafetz Chaim limited his permission to the study of Tanach and Mussar.” As mentioned earlier in the article, the CC did so because the women otherwise would “deviate entirely from the way of Hashem and the Torah”. To extend that to, not only permitting but actively encouraging, talmud is simply absurd.
In fact, the MO’s claim to “need” this for their women – when no Orthodox women needed this, not then and not now – means that there is something very rotten with MO education and “culture” – and they should fix that (i.e., become Orthodox, of course) and then their imagined problem of this “need” of talmud for women would also be solved. Kind of interesting that none of them seem to notice that. But that’s anyways all nonsense; it’s not needed, and all the Orthodox women who don’t need it are the biggest proof that this imagined need of MO is nonsense.
Rabbi Aharon Soloveitchik was, like his father-in-law, a “Religious Zionist”, which means that his opinions are also irrelevant to Orthodox Judaism. Regardless, even if it were true, as he claims, that “Chazal only prohibited coercing women to study Torah. If, however, they choose to learn Torah, then they deserve full support of the community”, that would not at all justify setting up “Beit midrash programs”, or talmud lectures in Stern College, that encourage women to do so. This is both disingenuous and silly.
As Rav Aharon Kotler wrote, Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for all the tuma in America. Just become Orthodox already and drop the idol and all the silliness.
anIsraeliZionist:
CH”V. We know that Hashem does good for even wicked people. As we know, “uM’shaleim liSonav el panav liHaavido…” But the point is that He does that good in order to finish them off later so that there will be nothing left of them – like He will also do with the Zionist idol, of course.Our duty is to follow Hashem’s definition of good and bad and right and wrong, and to then interpret current events through that lens rather than through the idolatrous lens of Zionism.
BB:
As previously mentioned, liHalacha, a belief of heresy does not necessarily make one into a heretic. For example, the Raavad on someone CH”V believing that Hashem has a body, based on what the simple man might have read in the Torah. That is heresy, because Hashem is infinite and has no body, but mistakenly believing in that doesn’t necessarily make someone into a heretic and therefore they wouldn’t have the issues you described.Regarding “If you need to think who is more deserving of shunning, a person who dies defending his brothers and sisters wearing a kippa and tzitziz vs NK who gives support to our enemies, then woe onto you.”, this is just idolatrous rhetoric. Of course, if someone is actually matzil nefashos, then he is obviously doing a great thing, according to our Torah. That doesn’t necessarily apply to any specific soldier in the shmad IDF, but it could apply to some.
As opposed to the NK member, he is not supporting “our” enemies. He is essentially conveying to whatever rotzeiach leader it is with whom he is meeting to not blame Jews for what the Zionists do or don’t do, since Zionism is in fact the polar opposite of Judaism and that the Zionists represent nobody other than themselves, certainly not worldwide Jewry as the Zionists often prattle on in their bombastic propaganda lies.
So, yes, an NK member could potentially be saving far more lives than a random Zionist soldier, and that’s assuming that the soldier is actually saving lives rather than just doing whatever it is his secular Zionist commander requires of him which might actually be against the Torah which means that by definition he is hurting Jews, not helping.
But that wasn’t even the point. The point, as mentioned, was that if someone supports the Zionist idol (not individual soldiers in its shmad army) yet hates the NK, then he is obviously not working from a Torah perspective but rather an idolatrous Zionist perspective.
SQUARE_ROOT:
They weren’t responding to Zionist idolaters and heretics who endlessly spout nonsense Zionist propaganda idolatry and heresy.Regardless, there are many times in which the gemara begins telling a story with “haHu min…”, or “There was a heretic…”. Note that the gemara does not say that we *think* he’s a heretic but we allow for his delusion to claim otherwise. No. It stated simply and clearly that he was a heretic.
yankel berel:
You write that one who is trying to defend the Torah is “running away”. But I don’t see you commenting about how all the Zionist idolaters have run away. Why the double standard? They get to blaspheme the Torah and then, when they are answered, they don’t respond. But when someone defends the Torah and doesn’t respond to some nonsense follow-up, then you call that “running away”. But not when the Zionists don’t respond to a substantive follow-up.It’s pathetic that people just post nonsense against G-d and His Torah and then don’t have the decency to respond that they were wrong and that their idol of Zionism distorted their minds.
anIsraeliZionist:
You misread that. He didn’t write that the Zionist victory against Iran was “revelation of G-d”.
He wrote that (in general) that we are seeing the “revelation of G-d” now, whatever exactly that is supposed to mean.For example, if Ukraine’s Iron Dome is not succeeding nearly as well as is Israel’s then obviously that is Hashem’s hashgacha in protecting His holy people.
More importantly, though, the Zionists are, as the Satmar Rav noted, like the arsonist who comes with a fire hose to put out the fire of a home that he himself set. Would you say that an arsonist must be zakai if he was able to put out some of the fire that destroyed that home? No, of course not, as he should never have set that fire in the first place, and the little firefighting only slightly lessened the tremendous bad that he did, not that it was in itself good.
Same with the Zionists. They have lit the region on fire and made problems for, and rebelled against the nations, all around the world. Whatever little Hashem allows them to do to slightly lower their damage from a level 10 to a level 9.5, obviously does not make them “zakai”.
ZSK:
Again, “Religious Zionism” is in fact idolatry and heresy according to the Torah and as clearly specified in writing by the major gedolim of Klal Yisrael over the past century. That is a fact, which you wish not to accept but the “therefore” of that is very clear: one who believes in that – that Judaism is that false religion of “Religious Zionism” (a”l) – is therefore serving idols and believing in heresy. Whether they are considered to be heretics could depend on their background, etc. But their belief is absolutely heretical and idolatrous. That is not “denigrating” anyone; that is simply pointing out the Torah’s opinion about those who have chosen to adulterate the Torah with their idol and heresy.yankel berel:
Neither, as it happens; it is you who is “badly mistaken”.
Rabbi Akiva thought that Ben Koziva was the Mashiach, not that he needed to do any actions to cause Mashiach to come. That’s irrelevant to this.And it is not I who would have you believe that Hashem alone will bring the gedulah rather than any human being causing it (other than via Torah and mitzvos, etc.); the Satmar Rav brings down that and much more in his sefarim. He writes extensively about this topic in both his chiddushim al haTorah as well as the other well-known sefarim that he wrote. The midrashim are there for you to read for yourself. It’s not some invention with which you could argue.
From AI (I didn’t check the references, but I know they’re there from the Satmar Rav’s quotes of them – please feel free to learn it on your own and see that):
One key source is Deuteronomy 30:2–10, which describes how the people will return to G-d, and then He will gather them from exile, circumcise their hearts, and bring them back to the Land. The emphasis is on spiritual return rather than physical or political action:
“And you shall return to the Lord your G-d… and the Lord your G-d shall return with your returnees… and He will gather you…”This suggests that man’s role is teshuvah (repentance) and devotion, while G-d performs the actual redemption.
Midrashically, this is reinforced in Pesikta Rabbati 36, and in Shemot Rabbah 15:2:
גאולה ראשונה על ידי משה ואהרן, גאולה אחרונה אני עתיד לגאול אותם בעצמי
“The first redemption was through Moses and Aaron; the final redemption I will redeem them Myself.”The implication is that human leadership and effort were central in the Exodus, but in the future, G-d alone will act, and man’s role will be primarily spiritual—serving Him with sincerity and faith.
This reflects a broader theme in rabbinic literature: that the ultimate geulah (redemption) will be more direct, more miraculous, and more intimate between G-d and the people of Israel.”
@ZSK:
Yes, denigration. No, I did not denigrate any particular individual. I simply noted the Torah-based fact from the greatest Torah sages of the past century that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy.You claim that I “have never substantially answered anything I have said in rebuttal to you, ever.” Perhaps you could clarify how you came to that odd conclusion.
But, no, those saintly sages’ words have never been “torn apart, debunked” and whatever other rhetoric you want to use. The indisputable Torah fact is, as mentioned above, that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy. What that connotes of those who are fooled by it is a separate matter, and you can get into the Raavad and tinok sheNishba and whatever else you want to attempt to possibly defend them. But the ideology and belief is simply a non-starter. Period.
So, it is nonsensical to insist on demanding respect for those who believe and/or promulgate idolatry and heresy when they are instead supposed to be doing so for, LiHavdil, only Torah. Hashem knows what is in everyone’s hearts and he surely loves all His children who seek to connect to him as they were taught by their rabbis. But if they were taught lies and heresy and idolatry as the basis for their beliefs, then those are obviously non-starters as opposed to LiHavdil someone who believes in only Torah who therefore is obviously far more worthy of respect than the ones you still insist on being granted respect.
yankel berel:
That doesn’t seem like a contradiction; you’re welcome to quote the paragraph to which you are referring, if you’d like, but I don’t know that it really matters. Assuming your quote is correct, there is still a very, very big difference between this group of minim who are mesisim uMedichim on the largest imaginable scale (the Zionists of course) versus a “mere” rasha (not a min, but a rasha).For example, if a rasha builds some mansion – and nobody ever even heard of this rasha – then there doesn’t seem to be any concern that his rishus will be validated by his palace going to a tzaddik. Even if they did hear of him, people buy and sell houses all the time and almost nobody cares who originally built his house unless there is some prestige or other gain from that. Whereas, if the Zionist State were to be the basis for the geulah (which is impossible, of course, but in theory, if it were), then it would clearly cast a positive light on that idolatry and heresy (which it factually is according to the Torah).
There are also infinite cheshbonos that Hashem could have in arranging it that way for the tzaddik to get that house. For example, on an individual level, rewarding the rasha in this world rather than in the next while at the same time reusing the rasha’s efforts to reward the tzaddik. But none of that is relevant to Zionism and its “State” which – unlike a mansion which is inherently harmless – have shmaded (and continues to shmad) at least three generations of Jews there.
Regardless of the various reasons there could be to explain the Rambam (and, again, I don’t think it’s a contradiction, in my very humble opinion), nonetheless, the Brisker Rav surely knew that Rambam at least as well as anyone today, and he still stated exactly what he did due to Chazal’s dictum that Hashem causes zechus to come from zakai, and the opposite from the opposite.
(The Satmar Rav actually went further and drew a kal vaChomer from min sheKasav Sefer Torah that it must be burned. If we need to go that far to ensure a min’s name is not relatively well-known, then surely Hashem will ensure that nothing (significant?) – he was referring to infrastructure, if memory serves – from the Zionists will remain when Moshiach comes.)
Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).
BB:
Going back to your earlier post:
Imagine that someone is very strict about his mitzvah observance and learns and davens all day but he happens to also be a member of Jews for J and believes that their savior is his savior, too, R”L.Would you similarly ask why that guy is to be shunned, given all the good that he does? After all, who cares if he worships idols if he does so much good, according to what you seem to be implying
So, please explain:
Given that Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Brisker Rav (who lived there) and all the rest wrote explicitly that any flavor of Zionism, including “Religious Zionism”, is idolatry, and obviously in the halachic sense of the word, on what halachic basis did you decide that this idolatry (Zionism) is less severe and halachically different than that idolatry?Going back ever further, there is the well-known story of the Malach (the rabbi, not an “angel”) whose son was fooled into donating a small coin to some Zionist and in return received a Zionist JNF pin, which he wore on his garment. When the Malach saw this, he tried convincing him to remove it, but he did not want to listen. As they were walking, they “happened” upon Rav Chaim Brisker, and stopped to ask him his Daas Torah. Rav Chaim pointed to a church across the street and stated that if the boy wanted to give money to idolatry, it would be better to give it to this idol (the church) rather than to that idol (the Zionists).
GadolHadofi:
I am not “Joseph”, so I don’t know why you chose to use that name to seemingly refer to my post.
See the piece by Rav Hutner Zatzal in Jewish Observer (archives) from the late ’70s, if memory serves.
We do not believe in any human’s infallibility, but, again, repeating that Zionist canard against gedolim is disgusting.Relevant to BB as well:
The Chazon Ish noted that an apikores nowadays is one who either celebrates the Zionist independence day or blames the gedolim for the deaths of Jews in Europe. You can ask your LOR what the Chazon Ish meant by that given that you feel you know the history and Torah better than the Chazon Ish and the others.BB:
You are making a lot of assumptions and building castles in the sky out of those assumptions. Esav just fought Yishmael, for Esav’s interests/political reasons. You have no proof that it actually brought any salvation for any Jews, even if the indications are that it benefited the Jews in the Zionist paradise. In fact, it could be the opposite, that the Zionists might have done better if not for him. We don’t know, both what could have been and what actually will happen as a result of what did happen. But that’s anyways irrelevant.Hashem stated that His Torah will never change. Migalgilin zechus al yedai zakai and other chazals very clearly denote that it is impossible for the Zionists to bring good for the Jews, and certainly not to bring the actual geulah. The Brisker Rav stated as much when he was already living there under the Zionists. Rav Elchonon Wasserman noted the same, but also pointed out that, ironically, the only way the Zionists could bring the geulah is if they cause so many problems for the Jews that Hashem then brings the geulah out of mercy to His children.
So, no, G-d already stated that the Torah will not change, and that is what the Torah says.
Bottom line is that the geulah could of course come today or tomorrow or anytime after, but that will be despite, not because of, the Zionists, as per the Torah.
@ZSK:
Wrong. And please stop denigrating people here.
The Religious Zionists, from at least as far back as Rabbi Kook’s son, believe that the redemption is currently happening and that it no longer depends on schar viOnesh.GadolHadofi:
No. First of all, it is not a half-century “gap”. Zionism began a half-century before and increased its activities from then on. So, of course, there is no “gap”. You should have known and acknowledged that, rather than implicitly mocking.Regarding the Zionists both causing and then contributing to the Holocaust, including announcing a boycott *in the name of world Jewry* (and the Zionists didn’t yet even have their pseudo-State) of Germany, which enraged Hitler YM”Sh to the point where he stated then “Now I will finish them”, and the wicked Zionists both actively and passively sabotaging rescue efforts of Jews including lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries, not to mention Kastner (mis)leading a million Jews of Hungary to their murderous deaths in the Nazi gas chambers, that is all historical record and fact, also mentioned by various gedolim.
There is also the spiritual/religious aspect of it in that Zionism is a mass assimilation/shmad movement, which is inherently a cause of antisemitism. And Zionism flagrantly violates the oaths, which is a cause of “ani mattir es bisarchem…”, which is essentially what happened during the Holocaust – on a horrific and never-before seen scale.
Feel free to look all this up for yourself. It’s not a secret, except in the Zionist paradise where the Zionists lie and propagandize about it to their citizens there.
The odious canard that you repeated against the gedolim is the propagandist Zionist response to the above facts. Also, Hitler YM”Sh was poised to invade Palestine, and the danger there was very real. So, even from a purely secular perspective, it would have made no sense to go to Palestine from Europe then. The Brisker Rav left Europe for Palestine specifically because of spiritual safety concerns in Europe despite the greater physical safety concerns in Palestine.
Your mockery, especially when you are both wrong and repeating Zionist propaganda against our Torah sages, is appalling.
GadolHadofi:
Why do you claim silly things in other people’s names?
I never wrote that the churban and other tragedies pre-Zionism were caused by Zionism.You might be confusing that the sages bring down that the post-churban mass destruction of Jews at Beisar (“Beitar”) was caused by a violation of the oaths, the same oaths that Zionism violates. So, the churban and all the rest of the pre-Zionism tragedies, of course, were not caused by Zionism. But, like Beisar and Zionism, there certainly could indeed have been other tragedies that were caused by violating the oaths.
Regarding the Holocaust (specifically) and Zionism, this is a matter of historical record, of course, and the Zionists both admit this and that they would not do anything differently if given a do-over. As the Zionists have stated, better Zionism and no State versus a State with no Zionism, and during the Holocaust, “A cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews of Europe” and on and on. And, to clarify the timeline of both, in case the dofi is getting in the way: Zionism was founded fin-de-sicle (late 1800s). The Holocaust happened almost a half-century later. That logic isn’t at all complicated.
@Bayit Beitar:
No, unfortunately, we cannot “forget about Zionism” Of course, Zionism is not, as you claim, “a political movement that is irrelevant nowadays” but rather an idolatry and heresy that is by very far the greatest rebellion against G-d on the planet, which has shmaded and continues to shmad R”L generations of Jews, especially those inside its putative “State”. Zionism is nothing less than a (very anti-Torah) complete redefinition of Judaism and Jew, with lots of money (from its “State” and elsewhere) to propagandize the same to hapless Jews.
@ZSK:
So, in addition to having no answer, you also added the heresy of “mai ahanu lei rabbanan”? And it’s not only “Rabbanim who died nearly 100 years ago”; it’s Rav Shach and others who lived much more recently, as well as LBC”L those alive today like Rav Moshe Sternbuch and others. Your labeling of me as a “sonei Yisrael” is, of course, false; true to Zionist form, it is the wicked Zionists and their supporters who would fit that rubric as they try to shut down our yeshivos and shuls in the Zionist paradise to force the Jews there to be shmaded in the Zionist army and impoverish our brethren there and forbid them from working for years as long as they refuse to be shmaded in the Zionist army. That’s true Sinas Yisrael, though a “Religious Zionist” might not recognize the Torah’s definition of sinas Yisrael due to their idol of Zionism and instead, like you, apply that to those who wish good upon Jews instead of to the wicked Zionists who are the greatest sonei Yisrael by far.@AAQ:
The “gedolim” at the time were essentially Moshe Rabbeinu and Aharon haKohen, though his instructions were straight from Hashem rather than derived from Torah knowledge. Moshe Rabbeinu gave the meraglim specific instructions, which most of them did not follow. If memory serves, the Zera Shimshon points out the halacha that if 2 people mutually agree on criteria for an item then those criteria become binding. Moshe Rabbeinu agreed with them on specific conditions about the land because he knew that the land would pass those conditions with flying colors. But the meraglim complained about other things on which they had not agreed, which went against their agreement. So, yes, while chareidim try to listen to gedolei Yisrael, the meraglim did indeed do the opposite.
@anonymous Jew
The enormous propaganda of Zionism, especially post-War, unfortunately fooled many. That is totally irrelevant to the undisputed truth of Rav Wasserman’s writings. Regarding Torah study protecting and comparing that to tragedies that happened in our history, you can ask your LOR for more on that. One general answer is that Torah study indeed protects, but a time of din (strict judgement) has a very different calculus than in normal times. During that type of period, it takes very special merits to be saved. (Regarding the Holocaust specifically, the answer also includes the evils of the Zionists. The wicked Zionists interfered with Hashem’s plan to save Jews by, for example, lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their countries, which closed off escape routes that Hashem had setup to be open for Jews.)ZSK:
Take it up with Rav Elchonon Wasserman and all the other gedolim who stated this over the decades.
You can also take it up with the “Religious Zionist” rabbis who can tell you how their boys come crying to them over the terrible nisyonos the Zionists intentionally put these boys through in their shmad army.HaTorah haZo lo sihei muchlefes.
SQUARE_ROOT:
This nonsense was already addressed. Please stop posting nonsense and stop repeating the same.anIsraeliZionist:
It is, of course, the Zionist idolaters who twist themselves into pretzels to distort and remove from the Torah in favor of their Zionist idol.@SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist nonsense?
Oh; because Zionism is an idol, and idolatry is not rational.Regarding the silly piece you quoted:
No, the galus is not over until Mashiach comes. As of this writing, it decidedly – and sadly – has not yet ended. It has zero to do with the “mindset of the meraglim” but rather its opposite which is following the Torah.Regarding your personal comment:
No, you do not remember correctly. The meraglim told the people that we are not strong enough to conquer the land and that even G-d cannot do so (whether due to their sins or whatever other reason). Similarly, liHavdil, the Zionists lie (see their heretical “Jerusalem Program”) that the Jewish people cannot continue to exist without a strong and secure “State” of “Israel”.As well, you mischaracterized both the Chareidim and, liHavdil, the Hesder.
First, Torah study is the ultimate protection, so it would be foolish for them to abandon Torah study and take up weapons.
Second, the main issue preventing the chareidim from fighting in the Zionist army is that Zionism and its army are shmad.
Finally, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and other gedolim noted that “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry biShituf.
So, “Hesder Jews”, who practice the idolatrous and heretical “Religious Zionism”, and also allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army, are obviously not practicing the “correct Derech HaTorah”. The “correct Derech HaTorah” is to remain Jews who serve only G-d, not Jews who also worship the Zionist idol and also not to allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army.This should all be plain and simple to all Jews but the idol and its immense propaganda unfortunately confuses people.
none2.0:
I thought my phrasing made sense and also don’t understand your rephrasing.
The Torah says Lo sa’amod…, that you’re forbidden from standing by idly as your “friend”‘s blood is being spilled. Like that hypothetical drowning example.
Lifnei Iver is an additional concern.Not sure what “morals” has to do with this. There is Torah, which is absolute truth, and everything else, which is not. Morals are irrelevant unless they are firmly based on the Torah.
Ellie7:
You wrote:
“The vibe of the whole letter is placing men’s issues squarely on women’s shoulders. You’re turning women into the bad guy and framing men as poor, innocent bystanders.”Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It’s not “good (men) vs. bad (women)”. It’s that some women are doing something improper, regardless of whether or not they realize that it is improper.
“The way you describe the first type of man, especially-‘The Struggling but Sincere’-made me cringe. Why don’t you think that most women-even in the long, lace sheitals aren’t struggling but sincere? Why do you assume they aren’t trying their best? Why are you viewing them as an evil entity out to get men?”
Again, he’s not criticizing those women as “bad” and “out to get men”; the women, too, could certainly be “struggling but sincere” and “trying their best”. But, again, he’s raising awareness that those women may not realize that what they are doing is problematic.
“You can’t blame women for men’s issues. Yes, perhaps in an asifa for women this can be emphasized-without placing responsibility for men on their shoulders. No one bears responsibility for another’s actions. Period.”
I’m curious from which rabbi or BY school you learned that “hashkafa”. There is actually a straight-out mitzva in the Torah of “Lo saamod al dam raiecha”. According to your “hashkafa”, if you see someone at risk of drowning and you are able to help but choose not to save them from drowning, then that’s perfectly fine. But the Torah says otherwise. In fact, ironically for this discussion, if a man doesn’t save a woman at risk of drowning, then he is called a chassid shoteh.
There is also “lifnei iver lo sitain michshol”. Etc.
So, I think this is the crux of your issue. You are claiming that, as a woman, you are entitled to wear any sheitel you want (and you noted that you do wear a sheitel that is more tzanua than some out there) and not be considered wrong for doing so. Even if secular “culture” implies that, liHavdil, the Torah very much disagrees. So, yes, women do need to be aware of what they are doing and the effect of that on men (and other women, too, like being machshil them via peer pressure or negatively affecting their marriages, etc.).
Please try harder to view this from the Torah’s perspective. That should help with the anger you feel about this issue.
emesdik613:
Great posts. Yasher koach.keith:
Regarding your second paragraph, I have never seen any NK advocate for the killing of any Jew. It’s true that they have marched with undesirables, but they have never advocated violence against anyone, from reports that I have seen.(While on that topic, the wicked Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan in cold blood, and are responsible for not only the Holocaust and contributing to it, but there were well known examples of Zionists who collaborated with Nazis, like Kastner did. Yet no supporter of Zionism condemns the Zionists for their consorting with evil people and entities. So, if that’s your standard, then you should be left with the question of why that is so.)
keith:
Just the opposite. Many gentiles have nothing against Jews and our religion, Judaism. But they may or may not have an issue with Zionism and/or Israel, and, especially given the immense Zionist propaganda and lies about how they represent Jews and Judaism (all lies) these gentiles are left confused as to how to view Jews vis-a-vis Zionism and its “State”.These guys clarify for those gentiles that Zionism is obviously not Judaism (they are in fact diametrically opposed) because these very authentically-looking (and observing) Jews very clearly and demonstrably do not believe in Zionism.
It’s really not at all subtle, and gentiles are perfectly capable of picking up the distinction between Judaism and its polar opposite Zionism.
ard:
You don’t seem to have understood what I wrote.Yes, as I wrote, the NK have used some questionable means, including hugging murderers, etc.
However, their message that is indeed the Torah’s message is that Zionism is the diametric opposite of Judaism and that the Zionist “State” is Zionist and not Jewish. Therefore, Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or do not do.keith:
What you seem to miss is that they show that support specifically to prove the point that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism and that the Zionists do not represent Jews so, therefore, Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do.That doesn’t halachically validate their actions, but to make it seem as if they are inherently pro-Palestinian is simply silly. Again, by supporting the Palestinians, that demonstrates to the world that you cannot logically equate Judaism and Zionism and Jews and Israel, and that is the very crucially needed point, so that gentiles should not be angry at Jews because of anything the Zionists do or don’t do.
This should be obvious to all Jews.
Please stop spamming these boards with your nonsense. If you have your own opinion, then that’s one thing. But we don’t need to read here random opinions from YouTube.
Your idol and its leaders are infinitely worse than any NK. If anyone loves the evil Zionists and their “State” but hates NK, then he obviously is not basing himself on Torah.
The NK have used some questionable means, but their message is the Torah’s message, and crucial for both gentiles and Zionist Jews: Zionism and its “State” do not represent Jews, and Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or do not do.
AAQ:
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes. Period. RYCZ would therefore obviously not have dreamed of doing any such thing, as that would not be “according to halacha”. In fact, RYCZ wanted to remain independent of the wicked Zionists, and had Dr. Yaacov DeHaan negotiating that with the gentiles until the wicked Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan in cold blood.The way to deal with the current “State” is first to understand that it is a rebellion against, and great enemy of, G-d and His Torah. The next thing to know is that, as the Chazon Ish stated, one morning we will wake up to discover that the “State” simply doesn’t exist anymore. With that basic understanding, you then move on to the Brisker Rav who stated that dealing with the Zionists is like dealing with any other opponent, including diplomacy.
As to your question about current ruler vs prior ruler, it is absolutely disgraceful to compare these heretics of a fake “Jewish” “State” to liHavdil, malchus beis Dovid. Besides for that point, the crucial difference is that in the case of the Zionist “State”, regardless of the leader – current or prior – that “State” is still Zionist, meaning that it is a mass and gross rebellion against G-d and His Torah and a danger to His people R”L, both spiritually and physically. Zionism at its core, ideologically, is the diametric opposite of Torah. None of that was true of malchus beis Dovid, even though there were some kings who did not lead the people properly, worshiped idols, etc.
yankel berel, chaim and LMT:
Why do you post things that are against the Torah and that are also baseless? Giluy panim baTorah sheLo kaHalacha is not a joking matter.The Oaths are brought down liHalacha by poskim, as the Satmar Rav brings down in his sefer. The Satmar Rav did not invent that they are halachic. Even the Rambam himself applied them as halacha liMaaseh in Igeres Teiman. They are brought down as halacha by poskim and others throughout the centuries, which is why Zionists come up with silly answers trying to pretend that they are no longer in force.
Chaim’s argument about them being reciprocal is also wrong, as the Satmar Rav notes, because, in part:
1. The oaths are for our benefit, not a contract between us and the nations.
2. Even if they would be reciprocity on the oaths between us and the nations (which there is not, in fact), that would apply only to the oath against “rebelling”, not to the other oaths, like ascending with force and also forcing the end.Nobody held of Zionism, despite Chaim’s stories, though some rabbis might have been fooled by Zionist lies *at the time*. And nobody held of those writings of Rabbi Kook which were heretical or otherwise anti-Torah, and many held and published very strongly against Rabbi Kook himself.
LMT:
The Meshech Chochma did not hold what you claim. If he did actually write what they claim he wrote (which was published in a “Religious Zionist” paper, not in a sefer), then he simply stated that the fear of violating the oaths – meaning of rebelling against the nations, of course – would not be an issue in light of the Balfour Declaration, for Jews to peacefully and non-politically move to the holy land. That’s it.Of course, the reality is that those same British then issued the White Papers effectively rescinding that, and ultimately also did not vote for the Zionist State in 1948, and that all anyways has nothing to do with the other two oaths as mentioned above, both of which the Zionists flagrantly violated and neither of which the Meshech Chochma permitted: namely the Zionists fighting wars (and terror) to gain that “State”, and even without that, to get any “State” even peacefully (dechikas haKeitz).
I find it sad that people make halachic (and hashkafic) claims when they clearly have not learned the sugya and are just relying on the (false) Zionist meme that only Satmar holds of the three oaths. Go ask your LOR, if you have one, and ask him for sources.
none2.0:
I thought my post was a factual one, but I guess you took offense at my writing “So, that’s silly”?
Whatever. I apologize.Maskilic/”Modern Orthodox” comparisons of gemara to the founding of Bais Yaakovs, and the questions from Bruriah, women being no longer only in the kitchen, etc. are all silly, despite their “Rav”/Professor of Talmud violating halacha in teaching a talmud class to women at “Yeshiva” University, something never done before.
First, no source permits giving a public talmud lecture to women as the modern day maskilim’s leader did. Ask your LOR under what specific conditions it would be permitted and perhaps even beneficial to teach gemara on an individual (not group) basis to, say, your daughter or your wife.
There was nothing halachically novel about the founding of Bais Yaakovs, which is why the rabbis approved of Ms. Schenirer’s idea. As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs. Once the haskalah (forerunner of today’s “Modern Orthodox”) and Zionism and other -isms began wreaking havoc on Jewish homes, preventing the women from receiving and/or conveying the mesorah mother to daughter, there arose the need for an alternative way of conveying that mesorah, which is what Bais Yaakovs provided. (Of course, today, given the schooling structure in Western countries, Bais Yaakovs also serve the purpose of enabling Jewish girls to get a Torah education in a Torah environment rather than a secular education in a secular environment.)
Women can be great lawyers and leaders, but Torah is not an academic body of knowledge – Torah is chachmas Elokis – so that’s all irrelevant.
Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim. We cannot fathom the greatness of our ancestors in those days, but even she, herself, proved Chazal’s wisdom, so it is foolish to go against Chazal based on the exceptional learning of Bruriah. However, as mentioned, for an individual woman to learn could be permitted, depending on the circumstances. Ask a non-Maskilic LOR for specifics.
crazykanoiy:
Let’s be abundantly clearer. The Zionists would not have been able to launch their strikes without the President’s permission. Your TDS level is very concerning.AAQ:
As he stated, Zionism contains all of those components: Political Movement, Statehood and Self-Determination.
Your response was, essentially, that these three are not conceptually problematic.
So, by that logic, since Judaism is a religion, that must mean that Religion in conceptually good. Therefore, that would imply that a Jew being part of any Religion would be okay, which is obviously not true.So, that’s silly. Of course, it is the details/implementation of a particular concept that determine whether or not that implementation is problematic.
Moreover, Statehood is indeed inherently problematic for Jews prior to Moshiach’s coming, according to all Torah authorities. So, the fact that all the gentiles have States (all over the world) doesn’t make Statehood inherently innocuous, just something that is okay for gentiles and very much not okay for Jews. We, of course, have a Torah, and that Torah forbids Jewish statehood prior to Moshiach’s coming, as mentioned.
As to the other two: a political movement that is (at least in theory) backed by Torah authorities (like Agudah) is okay. But one that is engineered by heretics from the ground up to destroy Judaism and Torah (that would be Zionism, of course) is obviously not comparable to Agudah. The Self-Determination point is a little more subtle. Having *communal* autonomy under the overall political control of Esav in Esav’s lands (as was pursued in Europe by Rav Hirsch and others and also what should have happened in Mandatory-Palestine) is very, very different than (the wicked Zionists) fighting endless wars against the British (first) and the Arabs and others to create and maintain an “independent” pseudo-State.
1. As the gedolim pointed out, including the Gerrer Rebbe, the Brisker Rav and all the rest, and as is clear to any first-year BM guy who is uninfluenced by Zionist idolatry, Rabbis Kook and Soloveichik were very wrong. Rav Elchonon and others pointed out that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry. Ergo, any rabbi who considers himself a “Religious Zionist” thus considers himself an idolater and his positions are obviously irrelevant to Torah.
Regarding Rav SZA, you’d have to specify writings from him that you think support your idolatry, but, regardless, it is idolatry.
2. Where did he write that? Besides, even if that were true (which it’s not – Hashem runs the world), the Torah states that if not for Torah learning there would be no world at all, and that Torah study protects. Obviously, there is no point to any army, if the whole enterprise is dead. Clearly, it is suicidal (on multiple levels) of the Zionists to stop supporting Torah and to attempt to draft its learners and force them to stop learning and keeping the world going.
3. Who said they have any opinion on that? Let’s stay on topic.
Avi K:
You “Modern Orthodox” are really in such a bubble that it’s almost amazing to see. The reason for that, of course, is that all the gedolim stated that your lifeblood of Zionism is heresy and idolatry, so you have no choice but to invent your own nonsense even when that goes against every gadol that ever lived. Do you really think that the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav and all the others couldn’t learn that Rambam at least as well as Rabbi Zevin, yet they all stated that the Zionist army was absolutely forbidden? This is so silly. That’s besides the fact that the Zionist army is shmad and the gimmel chamuros.
In addition to your idolatrous nonsense about the IDF, as if the Rambam is in any way remotely relevant to that shmad army as mentioned, your contention that “The fact is that nobody goes OTD because of the IDF. They would have gone OTD anyway,as anyone who lives in a Chareidi area knows.” is pure wicked lies. Rav Steinman once told a boy who came to him that no matter which army “framework” he would do, if he would go to that Zionist army, he would come out “a total goy”. Your own fellow idolaters, the “Religious Zionists”, cry to their rabbis about what the wicked Zionists do to them in that army.
If you want to worship your idol, that’s between you and G-d, but don’t make that worse by denying that of course Jews obviously go OTD in that shmad army.
Menachem Shmei:
The Purim miracles of our salvation we received then were a sequence of events that were totally unpredictable. That has zero to do with Zionist wars, which are military campaigns that were assessed militarily before they Zionists waged their wars, as mentioned. No need to confuse things needlessly.DaMoshe:
Let’s rewrite that for you.
DM, you are not convincing anyone. You, just like typical Zionist idolaters, are blinded by your love of your idol. You are not thinking rationally. The Zionists were and are so blinded by hatred of Judaism that they caused (actively and otherwise) the deaths of almost all the Jews of Europe. This is what you want to glorify?
You can keep posting your twisted views here, but as I said, you’re not convincing anyone. If I had to guess, most people here just view you as a pathetic idolater.Regarding your latest post with the nonsense about the Zionist holidays, no less than the Chazon Ish stated that the Zionist “Independence” Day should really be a 9 Av day. All gedolim knew that it was obviously not a holiday. Even the head of Religious Zionism, Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik, did not allow the insertion of Hallel into Shacharis like we do on Rosh Chodesh, etc. Yet you advocate against his “psak”.
Which posek ruled that saying Hallel on Zionist invented holidays is “giving thanks to Hashem, and recognizing that the victories came from Him.”? None. You made that up.
Zionism is a shmad and rebellion against G-d. Obviously, Jews do not celebrate idolatrous days of this shmad movement and “State”.
simcha613:
It must be difficult inventing quotes and contradictions that don’t exist.Of course, the wicked Zionists should be grateful to G-d for even “natural” and “normal” occurrences, including their military victories due to their military superiority over their enemies, though the wicked Zionist heretics do not even acknowledge G-d’s existence to begin with, and their entire Zionist enterprise is one big rebellion against Him. But that’s besides the point.
As the Satmar Rav points out (and if G-d gave you the ability to learn from a sefer in lashon haKodesh, then I’d encourage you to pick up his Al haGeulah… to see this for yourself), the point is that Jews should not use Zionist victories as proof that G-d wants Zionism and its “State”. Even if the Zionist victories in their wars were actual miracles, that still would not indicate that G-d wants the Zionists, because we don’t base our Judaism on miracles but rather on the Torah, and the Torah very clearly forbids Zionism and its “State”. But, and again this is the point, the Zionist victories in their wars were not miracles but rather conventional military victories, so even if somebody would make that mistake of basing his Judaism on “miracles”, the Zionist military victories were, in fact, not miracles.
DaMoshe:
The pro-Zionist idolaters (like you) are the actual “haters”, who support the shmad “State” that was and is the greatest rebellion against G-d, the Torah and His people and is responsible for the spiritual loss of untold millions of Jews over multiple generations under their control.More facts:
It is not I who “loves to claim” that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was not miraculous. The holy Satmar Rav (verboten in your haskala world, I know) wrote that explicitly. And it is simply the fact, if you read the history and other books and writings on the subject and even ask the wicked Zionists (and read their words at the time), that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was predicted by the intelligence agencies and the Zionists themselves knew it.Of course, Jews who believe in only G-d (unlike Zionist idolaters who also believe in their idol), certainly believe that G-d could have ended the Zionist experiment in that war and delivered a loss to the Zionists, had He wanted to do that. But only fools (or idolaters) claim that the Zionist victory was a miracle when it factually was a conventional military victory.
wtsp:
The answer is that Zionist propaganda is unfortunately extremely strong, and some do not realize that they are influenced by Zionist propaganda against the Torah and its values in multiple ways. And Jewish pride is only doing what Hashem wants, meaning: learning Torah and fulfilling mitzvos, not any military accomplishment (especially by the wicked Zionists in their shmad army which is a den of all three of the three chamuros).keith:
So, how come anti-Zionists are so reviled by “Modern Orthodoxy”, then?
The Zionists are not G-d’s messengers; the Zionists are the greatest rebels against G-d. G-d protects His people despite, not with, the evil Zionists.YB, qwerty613 and ZSK:
Rav Elchonon Wasserman stated clearly in Kovetz Maamarim that Zionism is idolatry and that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry mixed with some (true) religion. Other gedolim did as well.As to why Zionism is heresy and idolatry, that is simple. Ain od milvado and Toras Hashem Temimah. If you add anything to the Torah (like “Religious Zionism”), then you are by definition detracting from the Torah, which is heretical. And if you believe that anything usurps/replaces any part of G-d’s power, then you are necessarily making that into an idol. You could even make yourself into an idol.
So, for starters:
The Torah states that Hashem guarantees that the Jewish people will last forever. LiHavdil, the heretical Zionists, in the very beginning of their “Jerusalem Platform” of their core idolatrous ideology of Zionism, state (some lies omitted from the quote for brevity) “Zionism…views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.”In other words, according to the Zionists, it is not G-d, but the Zionist “State” that guarantees the “continuity and future” of “the Jewish people”.
5TResident:
You have an interesting definition of “comfort”. And you’re forgetting that the wicked Zionists invaded a century ago against the will of the Jews there. Nobody asked the Zionists to invade. They chose to do so against the will of the Jews there. The Zionists are responsible for their own mess they made.yankel berel:
Again, your idolatry of Zionism is not letting you think clearly and, as a bonus, causing you to engage in ad hominem attacks. Nobody said anything about the Arabs taking over.yankel berel:
Your idolatry of Zionism is not letting you think clearly and, as a bonus, causing you to engage in ad hominem attacks.As stated, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives (which they of course do not) then they could go to the gentiles and have them take over – bloodlessly. Your attempting to bring proofs to the contrary from various world conflicts of course do not prove anything.
KGN:
Not sure what that means. The OP tried claiming that the Steipler and Rav Chaim held that everyone should move to the portions of the Zionist paradise that are in EY. I humbly pointed out how that is simply false, that nobody of note holds that anyone should move anywhere unless their Judaism (meaning life) will be better-served by doing so.You are also asserting without any basis in fact when claiming that millions of non-Jews would also be guaranteed to be killed in the event of the Zionist paradise being dismantled.
More Zionist nonsense.
Regarding your quote:
“The Chazon Ish encouraged people from overseas to settle in Eretz Yisrael as it is a positive commandment, and he felt that Yiddishkeit was more prevalent and easier to practice there than in the diaspora.”So, if you would actually be a better Jew, including less of a Zionist idolater, for example, if you were to move there, then that quote would make sense. But if moving to E”Y would increase your worship of the Zionist idol (or otherwise negatively impact your Judaism), then the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim would obviously never dream of telling you to move there.
Incidentally, the greatest halakhic decisor of the “Modern Orthodox” of today, Rabbi Herschel Schachter, also stated as above, in a lecture he gave a number of years ago in honor of the Zionists’ idolatrous “Independence Day”.
Your “PERSONAL COMMENT” also seems odd.
First, it was the Satmar Rav who was the first (publicly and in a published sefer) who “advocated for dismantling the State of Israel “peacefully”.”
He wrote that the Zionists could go to the gentiles and tell them to take over without hurting any Jews CH”V, and the gentiles would figure out a way.You asserted, with zero basis in fact and reality:
“Even if we ignore the fact that there is NO WAY to dismantle the state without killing MILLIONS OF JEWS, dismantling the State of Israel would certainly cause MILLIONS OF JEWS to leave Eretz Yisrael permanently.”This is, of course, false. When the Soviet Union fell overnight, it did not result in any deaths of millions, and most still stayed put exactly where they were (except the ones who wanted to leave to Western countries, which is perfectly possible now under the Zionists). There is no reason to expect differently here.