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Sam2 -“They are certainly not the facts in America and my argument still stands here.”
Are you kidding? There is No Pickuach Nefesh here. Most people are Goyim. Did you ever here a Din of Rov? So to say that you’re Mechuyav to donate organs here is Not reality acc. to Halacha.
And there is no Eivah since we don’t donate organs to anyone!
And btw, your ignorant of the facts in this country too. A lot of organ harvesting is done when the person still has a pulse, but just is brain dead! Just because a portion is done after death -I’m pretty sure this isn’t even most.
Avi K -“Health, considering the fact that you only consider people like yourself to be frum that is a tautology. If you are talking about the usual definition you are simply WRONG.”
I don’t know what your definition is but mine is s/o who is Shomer Torah Oomitzvos. I can’t count every MO person as Frum because a lot of them don’t keep Taharas Hamishpacha and/or Shabbos acc. to Halacha. This I’ve seen first hand.
So I’ll repeat -“Most Frum people agree that the Medina is Not the begining of the Geula!”
WIY -“Health
Don’t blame the politicians. Blame Hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry and the media. If you are brought up on heavy doses of movies…and corrupt media you will end up having very krum morals.”
You’re not serious are you? Hollywood is just the tool of the Soton. Did the Supreme Court have to say their Pritzus is protected by the Constitution? No. Of course not. Did the politicians have to write laws protecting Pritzus and the public display of it? No, of course not! The blame falls squarely on these politicians shoulders. Call a spade – a spade. They had/have Bechira like anyone else!
Unfortunately we have seen some groups vote for politicians and ignore their views on Pritzus. They were probably blinded by some promise of some kickback/Shoychad – if he/she got their vote!
HaKatan -“I’m not sure what happened to my other response, so I’ll be brief here: my “defense” of today’s generation has nothing to do with a shot-in-the-dark limud zichus nor can it be compared to Sedom.”
Of course it can be compared to S’dom. As a matter of fact you agreed in previous posts to this. I just did a search of your past posts. Stop being a hypocrite.
“Please read the relevant peirushim and midrashim. Sedom was evil, as in E.V.I.L. While it is wrong to condone and legalize this toeiva, this is a far, far different culture than sedom. This country has been very kind to its citizens (and gives citizenship rights to anyone born on its soil). Whereas Sedom savagely and torturously murdered any guests who happened to pass through.”
Just because they aren’t exactly the same -in the main problem they are!
“Again, please don’t be so foolish as to blame secular culture’s morass on the very people, Hashem’s am HaNivchar, who do what they can to rise above it, BE”H.”
Who blamed Klal Yisroel for this? Don’t put words in my mouth!
“And, similarly, it is a chutzpah and a tremendous lack of hakaras HaTov and/or simple surface-thinking for one to write off the USA as another Sedom because of a particular failing when there is so much more good that it does and that which sedom never dreamed of doing.”
Sorry, this Avlah isn’t just “a particular failing”, like you say. This causes destruction of the world. It doesn’t matter that they do some good. Their evil outweighs any good.
I even found a MO guy who disagrees with you and agrees with me:
“Feif Un
Proud Modern Orthodox
Remember also, that it says the generation of the mabul was finally punished because they recognized gay marriage. It says it also about Sedom. The Greek empire, the Roman empire – they both also recognized gay marriage, and both are gone now.
It’s clear that, as sammyjoe said, a society only maintains its right to exist if they do not recognize this abomination as legitimate. Let us try and help our medinah shel chesed by fighting against this abomination. The US has been a tremendous help to the Jewish nation, let us help protect the country when we can.
Posted 2 years ago “
I volunteer to beat the members of the Botay Dinim everytime they come up with a Psak based on their Negious, not on the Din! I’m sure this doesn’t happen all the time -so I shouldn’t be so busy! 😉
soliek -“health: again…maybe i have to say it until it sinks in…i disagree and disapprove with what she believes and does, but i understand why she does it. i didnt say i justify it, i didnt say i condone it, i said i understand it. get off your soap box.”
Soliek again -Who says I don’t understand why they are doing it? Maybe You should get off your soap box? Stop lecturing e/o.
“where you see a rasha who is the scum of the earth, i see someone with a hard life who is making a mistake. where you see someone who should, perhaps, be stoned, i see someone who should be invited for a shabbos. where you see a vindictive with, i see a victim. yep…a victim. we all know how sexual abuse and mental illness are treated in our community, and i have no doubt that she suffered everything i suffered and more.”
Now you are a mind reader. You’re dictating how I think? Who says I don’t feel sorry for these people? The fact that she is using her particular tragedy for a few minutes of fame & fortune is what makes her worse than e/o else who goes OTD!
“again…what she did was wrong, nevertheless it is important to understand in order to, at the very least, prevent it from happening again.”
You are living in Utopia, not in the real world. Until Moshiach comes there will be plenty of things wrong with the Frum community. We can’t even come to agreement how to deal with molesters amonst us. We have big problems and most of them are swept under the carpet. Are the Gedolim doing enough? Not IMHO.
But is the avg. guy able to change them? No. Is the avg. guy able to change Rosh Hayeshivos who protect bad people? No.
So you trying to perfect the Frum community is not realistic. If we would replace all our Gedolim with new ones -who said they would be any better? The facts are -there is a lot of Chessronos, but no realistic change will come about until Moshiach comes. Because of these Chessronos there will be many people unfortunately going OTD and there is very little anybody can do to stop this. While speaking about it publically on YWN and other places is a good start -it is only a drop in the bucket. I don’t feel this generation is capable of complete change. The main problem is most people are in Denial and this isn’t going to change anytime soon. There are things that I’ve seen in the Frum community much worse than child molestation and when brought up to the powers that be – I was ridiculed and they continue to remain in Denial. So be it -I’m not going to change the world and neither are you! We can only Daven that this Golus is over very quickly!
They are usually associated with “cold” weather -that’s why!
Defending yourself -you will almost always lose, no matter what you say. You can pay a lawyer who specializes in traffic court. You can use any traffic lawyer, not just the one that has been advertising recently in Lakewood.
The only difference is (the money is about the same whether you pay the lawyer or the gov.,) with a lawyer you can usually get a reduction in points if you were issued any.
moskidoodle -“we only get chanukah presents cause we copied X-ms presents.”
Perhaps that’s the reason of the Freye, not by the Frumme. I think it started when Yidden didn’t want to just give $ anymore. Kids wanted something that they could use practically. Once upon a time, you gave $ because the only thing a kid could get was a candy in the store. With the advent of thousands of different toys people were able to just buy a present that they could afford and that the kid would want. Why do you think Toys R’ Us are full of people Chol Hamoyed Pesach buying the kids Afikomen presents? This isn’t copying Goyim.
Toi -“health- the tree thing is a Gaon on S”A. everyone is makpid on trees.”
Wrong. Lots and lots of Chassidim bring trees or branches usually (not whole trees), into Shul on Shuvous!
Avi K -“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
I hope you are speaking to yourself. Most Frum people agree that the Medina is Not the begining of the Geula!
Soliek – That’s your mistake -I don’t have to know why. E/o who goes OTD has some reason or another. If s/o in person is telling you their story it might be polite not to interrupt, but you don’t need to know why. Their own particular reason doesn’t change anything. Whatever they believe is false and the Torah is true. Even if you’re trying to Mekarev s/o you can never tell them that their Hashkofos are right. You can empathize with their story, but you can’t say their way of thinking is another possible choice in life. There is only one Truth! Period -End of story!
Hakatan -“Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.”
Any particular reason you decided to defend this generation?
The fact that there are Frum Yidden living in this Dor doesn’t change what is going on in the Dor. Take off your rose colored glasses. With your defense -you could say S’dom wasn’t so bad -“Nebech they didn’t have Torah so made some grave errors”.
The Dor is full of Reshayim and the cancer in the western world that all this Pritzus that only really became openly visible is only in the last 30 -40 years. And it’s getting worse everyday.
E/o has to make a Machoh against this.
The hypocrisy of some is amazing. Some say don’t use the Net because of Pritzus, but will vote for a candidate that’s pro -Toavieah. 40 years ago had they had the Net -Pritzus would Not have been allowed. The problem isn’t the Net -it’s the people running the Western countries who have brought us down to this extremly low level! The solution isn’t stop using the Net -it’s to get rid of these politicians! Did they Assur talking on telephones because there are some whom speak LH on them?
soliek -“health: there are many things that i understand but dont justify…my point is that before you dismiss something make sure you understand it”
Are you talking to her or to me? Something I don’t understand or something she doesn’t understand?
DY – +1
Palm Sunday -We still take Lulavim on Sukkos.
X-mas trees -Some don’t put trees in Shul on Shuvous because of this.
soliek -“health…dont you get it…the whole book is one big self justification”
No, I get it, but you didn’t get my point –
They all justify why they went OTD.
It’s one thing to go OTD and it’s another to try and use your particular story to bash all Frum Jews! Just because she’s doing it for her 5 minutes of fame & fortune – doesn’t justify this added behavior. She’s much, much worse than your avg. guy/gal who goes off!
Avi K -“Health,
1. Convince him to be mitgayer and then come yourself and promote his party.”
You’re not allowed to go seek Goyim for Geyrus. He should rule as a Goy.
As long as Moshiach isn’t here -EY has to governed by Goyim.
“2.All of the rabbbanim of our generation with the exception of a small handful agree that we are in atchalta d’Geula.”
False! All of the rabbbanim of our generation & the previous one, with the exception of a small handful, agree that we are NOT in atchalta d’Geula!
“3. Nobody in Israel is or was ever forced to work on Shabbat.”
Wrong! They were forced to in the ’50’s – to work on Shabbos in the Jewish Agency’s absorption camps!
“4. Israel is not a treif medina as it is the fulfillment of a mitzva d’Oraita and according to all opinions, even those of Leftists, it has and should continue to have a Jewish character. This or that politician or government has nothing to do with the Medina as a medina.”
The Israeli government is Treif and this is what I mean by saying Treif Medina. Nothing to do with EY proper.
“5. Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 5:12) that it is better to live in EY in a city whose majority are idolators than a city in Chutz La’Aretz whose majority are Jews.”
Acc. to Gedolim, this doesn’t apply nowadays. This would only apply if the gov. weren’t a bunch of Kofrim!
Queen Bee -“Health, you know exactly what I was referring to.”
I actually don’t. Feel free to explain why you don’t believe any Jewish girl should go to seminary. After all this is Your thread.
Queen Bee -“In my perfect world, seminary would not exist,”
Now this statement I find objectionable. If you wrote, in my perfect world only girls wanting to become teachers went to seminary, not e/o – this I wouldn’t have a problem with.
But not the way you wrote it.
Do you have a problem with guys going to Yeshiva too?
800 Kilobear -I agree with your post on the other page -very nice.
The one above -No comment.
I do pity her and I feel she might not have had a Din of a Roshanta considering her circumstamces, but once she tried to capitalize on her sick behavior by putting down Frum Jews – all this goes out the window.
A lot of people go OTD and think they are right for whatever reason. But s/o who goes OTD and publicizes this for a little fame and fortune is a Rosha Gomor and will pay doubly – more than anyone else who went OTD!
Wolf -“And if the fact that I won’t dictate my daughter’s choice of spouse makes me a rotten, horrible Jew, then so be it.”
It doesn’t make you a horrible Jew if you don’t, but you lose that Zecus. Acc. to you – you are going to be in hot water in the next world -so I gave you an idea how to lessen the pain.
And there is no reason not to dictate, if anything since you are trying to be as bad as possible, dictating things against people’s will -will you help you go in that direction.
Wolf – “My daughter will marry whom she wants to marry, not whom I pick for her.”
A child is Mechuyav to Mezakeh the parents -that’s why they say Kaddish. Tell her to marry a learning guy for you.
“And I have no money to give away anyway.”
Go get a second job!
zahavasdad -“And I give the example again if you have a family member C’V who is brain dead and there is a mother of 8 who needs the heart and the heart is given to that woman.”
If it was me since they (family of mother of 8) believe in organ donation -I’d say let her donate her brain to my family member who is brain dead. Who says her blood is better than s/o elses?
Libs do this all the time -if they don’t like something – like Halacha or a Psak -they try to push their way on you using emotions. I don’t fall for these tricks, esp. in this case where you can wait until after the brain dead guy actually dies and then donate the heart. (If you hold organ donation is Mutter after death.)
Wolf – If you want Zecusim because you are so bad -marry your daughter to a learning guy and give him all your money. 🙂
golden mom -“yup straight from freezer to pressure cooker”
Nowadays there is no pressure on the boys. All the pressure is on the girl and her family to provide total support!
Avi K -“Health, the Turks already have a treif leader.”
So it’s perfect for him to take over Israel. He knows how to run a Treif government!
“Regarding the Geula, see the Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1) that it comes slowly in stages.”
And who told you it started yet?
“BTW, what you wrote about working on Shabbat was in America. Sweatshops had signs “if you don’t come in on Saturday don’t come in on Monday” -“
No, I was talking about Israel. What happenned here – I wasn’t discussing.
“and “treife medina” was the nickname given to America by rabbanim who told people not to go.”
No, I wasn’t talking about the USA, I was talking about Israel.
It’s better to live here with the Treif Goyim, than to live in Israel under the Trief Jewish government!
mutty.mutty – Oh Mutty –
Yeshivish = MO.
Just look at YWN -a good portion of the posters are MO!
No wonder it was snowing here today! (:0
Gee, do I feel old -in my time there wasn’t such a thing as “the freezer”!
yichusdik -“Health, my great grandfather and g grandmother, two of my great aunts/uncles – those who survived, their kids, all came to Israel at the same time as the Teimanim. They had nothing left after the war, and came to Israel with a bit more than the teimanim, but not much. My G grandparents maintained their level of frumkeit, but 1/2 of their children in Israel much less so. Some of THEIR grandchildren are frum, and have even become more frum, but others have not. Bottom line, They came, lived, worked and did their best in a very trying time. No one forced them to work on shabbes, no one forced them to eat treif.”
Where they put into the Jewish agency’s absorption camps?
“”Forced” is the word you used, and in the context of a state that means policy or law.”
No, you can force s/o to do something without a formal decree.
How about they said something like this -“Either you work everyday including Shabbos and if you don’t work any day -that day -you don’t eat”?
“And Health, I don’t need excuses. You want to be the Tzedoki insistent on ignoring “vechai bohem”, go right ahead. You know what they ended up as, despite having pure intentions. I’ll stick with the way of the perushim.”
Explain this rambling here -you don’t make any sense.
Avi K -“Health, as much of Turkey is in the area promised to Avraham Avinu it should be the other way around.”
News Flash! -Right now it’s not the begining of the Geula! Moshiach is Not here.
So when he comes -he will tell us the boundries of EY. Until then -give this Treif Medina to Turkey.
Sam2 -“Organ donations after death should be a Chiyuv because of Pikuach Nefesh.”
I could only see this in a place where there are mostly Jews. I don’t even know if this applies in Israel! (That it’s mostly Jews.)
“And in a case where there is no Jew in need of a kidney or lung, it is still a Chiyuv of Pikuach Nefesh Mishum Eivah.”
There is No Eivah because we don’t donate to Jews or anyone else.
“Even now, many countries won’t send organs to Israel because too many Jews aren’t donors. It’s a complete Pikuach Nefesh. Hands down.”
I never did an assessment -why there aren’t enough organs in Israel, but let’s say for argument sake you’re right -I have a simple solution for them. – Instead of taking all these terrorists and locking them up – how about instituing the death penalty?
If you did that -there would be more than enough organs to go around! Plus, you could lower the taxes for the Israeli public.
It’s funny, I haven’t heard one lib complain how the Israeli gov. is wasting tax money on terrorists, but they don’t stop complaining about some of the Jews in Kollel whom take $ from the gov.!
cherrybim -Cherry Bum- Bim, BUM, Bim, bum.
“There already exists a religion with that philosophy; Seventh Day Adventists.”
How do you know? Are you a member?
Of course you can take the organ even if if it comes from a Jew. They first harvest the organs -then they give it out. Even if it didn’t work this way and they waited for you to tell them -Go get it -it would still me Mutter to take it because Ain Shaliach L’dvar Aveira.
coffee addict -“Health,
Doesn’t the gemara say that the reason the dor haflaga was scattered while the dor hamabul was killed was because the dor haflaga had shalom?”
So what? This just means why they got one punishment over another. It isn’t one of the reasons why they were punished in the first place!
RSRH -“Anyone who thinks that our generation is the worst yet in terms of zima has very little sense or knowledge of history.”
This is exactly what I think. Do you have any Proof that I’m wrong? And I know history. Are you living on some Island (Not NY)or are you just in denial?
coffee addict -“The main reason for the mabul was that there was no shalom”
Prove it. Chazal never gave a main reason. They gave different reasons.
yungerman1 -“As long as the Jewish community doesnt legalize or condone such marriages you shouldnt worry.”
Wrong. First of all, there are Jews who do condone these things, but they call themselves Reform and the like.
Second of all, I posted here many times, that Chazal say once they write Kesubos on this (marriage contracts) that this (automatically?) brings about destruction. I live in this world and I shouldn’t be concerned about its’ destruction?
mommamia22 -“If I don’t see a rainbow, I assume we’re not as bad.”
What -you have never seen a rainbow here in the US? I’ve seen many.
RK -“Health, if a toeiva marriage contract was enforceable in the Dor HaMabul, then it is no better or no worse than legal toeiva marriage today.”
In this regard, the US and the Dor Hamabul are the same. But my point was -that it was the will of the Dor Hamabul to have these marriages -it wasn’t forced down their throat, like we have here in the good ‘ole USA! This makes our country worse than the Dor Hamabul!
greatest -“There is unfortunately no practical way currently at our disposal to dismantle the State of Israel,”
I disagree. I posted many times here – perhaps Turkey would be willing to take over the government.
GAW -“So I’ll simply retract my statement and apologize for the hurt that it caused.”
Apology accepted.
DY -“(although I still disagree).”
I would never be Choshet you to ever agree with me. 🙂
“Where did the M”B qualify that it’s a mitzvah gemurah only if you have no other main course? He just says “tavshil cham”.”
You see this is what happens when you mix up Simanim in the S’A just for you to ask Kashas.
There are obviously two types of Tzorech Godols.
One type of Tzorech Godol would be Matir Ameira L’acum by a D’oraysa like we see in 276.
Another type of Tzorech Godol would be Matir Ameira L’acum by Shvus D’shvus L’chatchilla like we see in 325.
So you’re correct in 325 it doesn’t have to be “no other main course”. Or it could be that even though he just says “Tavshil Cham”, it has to be similiar to Mashkeh where obviously you don’t have any other for Kiddush.
Imma613 – I think this country is worse than the Dor Hamabul. You can’t say the whole Dor because countries like Iran – Toeiva is still illegal. And why is it worse? Because even though in the Dor Hamabul they wrote marriage contracts on Toeiva and they do that here too -it doesn’t say anywhere that this was forced on the public. In this democratic? country the public voted against marriage (California), but the Gov. through it’s Judicial branch is now forcing them to have Toeiva marriage.
I hold anybody who votes for a politician who is pro-Toeiva is Oiver a very big Issur!
yichusdik -“Hah, Health, you made me laugh. You aren’t going to do the research for me! you don’t need to, I already have, and guess what? I haven’t found any regulation, legislation, or policy from the Israeli govt and the Jewish agency to do what you claim (shmad) BECAUSE THERE NEVER WAS SUCH A POLICY!”
When did I say they had an official policy to Shmad?
“Your circular logic is mind boggling. That’s why I said, show me evidence, (perhaps I missed something) and I will concede the point. Etc.”
And your defense of the Tzionim is even more mind boggling!
You will only find the Zionists guilty of Shmad if the Maizid was to Shmad. But you openly admit they caused them to Shmad, but you give some lame excuse. They knew what religious Judaism meant, but they didn’t care. Who cares that they were focused on other things? The fact is they knew these people were practicing their religion for thousands of years, but they forced them to work on Shabbos and maybe eat Treif. So being forced to do these things you forget about Yiddishkeit after awhile. This is the Shmad and this they did on purpose. There is no excuse for them making them work on Shabbos or anything else that they did.
You’re the type of guy that would defend Zionists if they served them pig. “Well pig was on sale and they didn’t do it to Shmad them, just to save money!”
The Freye Zionists nowadays are mostly Tinuk Sneshbas -what will be your excuse after a 120?
gavra_at_work -“Health: I’m very sorry that it is personal,”
I didn’t take anything personal, even though you did!
“but it is Pashut a Gemorah:
?”? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????
And there is a reason why you are divorced. It comes out in the coffee room, I could only imagine how it came out in your home.”
You resort to rank outs because you can’t defend your beloved Tzionim. I got news for you – maybe people who aren’t married are unhappy, but there are plenty of married people who are Reshayim!
“On that note, I feel that I can no longer discuss the topic with you, as I am “biased”, and you will be “biased” against me. If sushe or anyone else wishes to discuss, I would be more than happy to do so.”
Exactly since you are biased -why should I bother proving anything to you? You most certainly won’t accept it!
cherrybim -“Highly inappropriate and insensitive comment in light of those Yidden who are critically ill.”
No, it’s not. Practice what you preach!
DY – No, it’s just a Mitzva to eat Chulent during a meal, not a Mitzva Gemura unless there is nothing else (like in my case -no other main course). Why must you equate the two?
GAW -“Look, I’ve also been taught that it happened, and I THINK it may have. But Health saying so B’derech Pashut and his “proofs” just irk me (and I’m sure many others as well). It’s just not Yashrus.”
It irks you because it is the TRUTH!
What’s not Yashrus is to lie, just to defend Tzionim/Kofrim!
RK -Like I said -it depends on the situation. There are Rabbonim (not all) who know Halachos of Refuah very well. These Shailos should be presented to them.
SL -“Hashem is not vengeful.”
Of course he is. We say in Davening everyday -Kel Nekomos Hashem -Kel Nekomos Hofeeah! Nekomoh means vengeance!