Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I was wondering when I saw the heading of the thread! I had to think about that for a moment – my first thought was that maybe in chutz l’aretz they need one this year. But then I realized that couldn’t be.
Avrah – they are two separate issues (at least in theory) – who goes to the shalom zachor and who they are made for.
On the one hand, it is possible for shalom zachors to be for boys but both men and women attend. On the other hand, it is possible for shalom zachors to be for both boys and girls but only men attend.
By the way, most women I know do attend Shalom zachors, although there are usally less women in attendance than men.
Also, that’s a very unusual thing to have in mind for שעשני כרצונו, so I don’t think it can be used as proof of anything. I hope she has other things in mind, and that was just a joke.zaltzvasser – very interesting! Thank you!
lesschumras – cute!
It depends on the following:
Had you arranged a specific day and time that you were supposed to come?
Did you call to say you weren’t coming or did you simply not show up?
Did you call afterwards to apologize and/or explain?
Did she call you to find out why you didn’t come?
Rebshidduch – I am glad you are asking the question, but I think that you are capable of figuring the answer out yourself. I think that is true of all the questions you have been asking on this topic as well.
It may make it easier for you to think things through when you type up and post your dilemmas, so you might want to continue doing so, but at the the end of the day, I think you are the one who needs to come up with the answers, and I think you are quite capable of doing so.
Although obviously it’s good to know that Hashgacha worked it out that it should turn out okay.
And I don’t know that your actions were necessarily wrong, but it seems to me like a complex sheilah and one it’s kidai to ask.
I am impressed that you thought it through enough to realize that it’s not so simple. I think that most people in your situation would have assumed it was the right thing to do, especially once they saw the results.
“Thank you for your reply. It seems like you spent a long time over it”
From an intellectual perspective, it’s definitely a fascinating sheilah, and I am curious to know the answer myself.
“The story gets more complicated. If he called up afterwards to apologize, he was self-admittedly wrong. And the Talmid Chochom who was humiliated came over to me to tell me that the other person had apologized – he wanted to thank me and to warn me from continuing any action against the askan, who he had been moichel.”
I don’t think that would be a deciding factor in determining if YOUR actions were halachically correct.
DY – regarding your first point, you’re right but I think we can find ways to be dan l’kaf zchus why he felt that way. I can understand it, but I’ve written enough already, so I’ll let someone else try to be dan l’kaf zchus his article without being critical of the hotel-goers.
Rebshidduch, when I first responded, I thought you were referring to your learning partner.
I then realized you might be talking about the guy. That was the reason for post #850. I think you know the answer to my question and you can use that answer to figure out the answer to your question in your opening post. I think this is a question you can and should answer for yourself.
Rebshidduch, I very much appreciate your apology.
I am sorry you are having such a hard time. I really hope it gets better. I will try to daven for you.
I understand that it is hard for you to talk to anyone right now. But if you can try to find someone to talk to, I would think that would help you to be less depressed.
All the best, and best wishes for a Chag Kosher v’Sameach!
ZD – if they have 16 kids and 4 grandparents, that’s 22 people. At $2500 a person, that’s already $55,000. Add in airfare, sons-in-law or daughters-in-law if any kids are married (which is likely if they have 16 kids) and some grandchildren, plus whatever things they have to buy for the trip, and you can easily get up to $80,000 (or more).
DY – I realized afterwards that I might not have been clear about what I meant.
My point was that cleaning for Pesach is gehinom for people with OCD, and for some of them it is probably just completely impossible so they have no choice but to go away.
Was your point that they could go away without going to a high end program? I thought the discussion was about going away for Pesach in general, not about the specifics of where people go. I figured that going to any hotel for Pesach is going to be a fortune, and that’s what the discussion was about.
I have no idea what these things usually cost, but maybe the reason it was $80,000 was because they have a large family, and there were reasons why it was super-important that they all be together for Pesach. Maybe they knew that someone in the family was dying and it was going to be their last Pesach together. Maybe someone had a severe case of depression and it was pikuach nefesh. Maybe there were a lot of expenses because of the care that was needed for someone’s physical or emotional problmes. Maybe some of the people going were kids at risk and it was the only way to keep them on the Derech. Maybe some of them were tinok shenishba and it was the only way to be mekarev them. Maybe they lived somewhere that was very far away from any kosher hotels so a lot of the money was going for the flights. Maybe there was some reason that they had to go to this particular hotel.
The point is that there can be so many reasons and factors that we know nothing about. These things are all relative. I’m sure there are people who can look at the way that I spend money and find what to criticize too, since I also spend money on things that others may not view as necessities and might not understand why I do. And so does EVERYONE!!! It might be a different quantity, but so what?
The 100 shekalim that I spend on something that seems unnecessary might not seem comparable to $80,000, but maybe $80,000 to that person (relative to both their income and the standard of living they are surrounded by and/or used to) is like 100 shekalim to me (relative to my income and the standard of living I am surrounded by and used to).
There are reasons why people do things. If people are borrowing money for something like that, obviously there is some reason they feel they need to.
I just looked through the comments on the article of the main site, and I realize that there are two potential pitfalls to this thread:
1. People being judgmental of and speaking motzi shem ra on those who go to hotels for Pesach.
2. People being judgmental of and speaking motzi shem ra on the writer of the article.
Posters, please view this thread as an opportunity to bring zchusim to Am Yisrael by exercising your abilities to judge everyone favorably (both those going to hotels and the writer of the article).
Perhaps in this zchus, we will zoche to actually bring the Karban Pesach in Yerushalayim this year and no one will have to decide between spending Pesach at home or going to a hotel!
Maybe we should have a contest to see who can do the best job of defending both sides.
(in any case, please, I beg you, don’t use this as an opportunity to c”v speak badly of anyone. Thank you in advance!).
please note: the last two posts are in reverse order.
I thought that was quite clear, but I’m glad you pointed it out in case there were people who didn’t get that.
Yekke – my above post (which might turn out to be below) was not meant in any way as a criticism of you. I understand that you are davka trying to separate between the two (theoretical discussion vs. personal attack), which I am very impressed by.
I am a bit concerned about how a thread like this will turn out though. I would be thrilled if there does not end up being anything remotely critical of judgmental of others. However, I find it hard to see how that could happen. Unless the plan is for your final post to somehow counteract any possible preceding negativity or judgmentalmess 🙂
Well, hopefully the moderators will delete/close the thread if it gets negative/judgmental.
There are two things getting confused in this article:
1. A theoretical philosophical discussion about the pros and cons of going to hotels for Pesach.
2. Our obligation to judge other Jews favorably.
As you yourself have pointed out elsewhere, there is a big difference between a theoretical philosophical discussion and a discussion that revolves around real people.
I’m sure the writer of the article had good intentions and meant his words as a philosophical discussion. However, l’maaseh, there are real people involved here and I think we have an obligation to judge them favorably.
Even if someone thinks that going to hotels for Pesach is inappropriate and a waste of money, etc, you can’t really judge other people who are doing so because you have no idea of all their factors and considerations.
This past Shabbos we actually had a discussion about this. Someone in my family started talking about how she thinks it’s a good idea. Others were very surprised since it’s not the kind of thing that anyone in my family has ever remotely considered, since it’s not something that is remotely in any of our budgets. However, the person pointed out that there are people who HAVE to do this even if they don’t have money. For example, someone who has severe OCD might have no choice and might HAVE to go away for Pesach even if they have to beg, borrow, or steal in order to do so.
None of us really knows why this family borrowed $80,OOO to go to a hotel for Pesach. They obviously felt they needed to do so. Maybe they all have severe cases of OCD or some other health issue (whether physical, emotional, or spiritual) that necessitated doing this. And if it really was OCD or something similar, can you imagine how horrible they will feel when they read this article and how much psychological damage it can do to them?
btw, my last four posts were posted in reverse order of how they were written.
“I wouldn’t have expected it of myself either. I am a very non-confrontational person by nature, unless it is in learning. I shy away from hostile situations.”
I’d noticed that. That is precisely what makes it impressive.
“In cases of public Bizayon HaTorah, everyone remaining silent is “backfiring”. Somebody has to make a statement.”
+1,000!
“It is assur to believe LH you hear about somebody when it is not l’Toieles.”
I think this statement may be misleading. You are never allowed to believe Loshon Hora even when all the conditions of toeles are fulfilled. You are merely allowed to listen to it and to act on it as needed but without actually believing it. (Sefer Chofetz Chaim, Hilchos Loshon Hora, Klal 6, Seif 2)
I know you that you know that Yekke, but I just wanted to make sure that people reading this don’t mistakenly think that it is permitted to believe loshon hora when the conditions of toeles are fulfilled.
RY – thanks for answering my question!
Kol Hakavod! Tizke L’Mitzvos!
You could only be doing that if you think it’s true, and you would only think it’s true if you knew for sure that there was a reliable source, but you either forgot what it is or for some reason you didn’t want to give the real source.
Plus I would assume that it’s only permitted in a situation in which you feel that it’s really important to convince someone of this truth. For example, if people are being mevazeh Talmidei Chachamim and you know that according to the Torah that’s a terrible thing to do but you don’t have the source off-hand, and it is important to speak out right away.
I can’t imagine this would fall in that category, so I would find it hard to believe that you made this up. If you knew this was true but didn’t remember the source, you would have just said so.
In any case, it’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Bump.
Rebshidduch, I responded a while ago, but I wasn’t sure if you saw, since it shows up as “1 voice and 0 replies” for some odd reason, so you may have thought there was no response.
Hence, the bump.
Just wanted to add something: I am wondering why you asked the question. In the case you are talking about, do you have reason to believe that there is another reason and it is not a good sign?
I thought about it a lot over Shabbos and looked into some of the relevant halachos. I definitely don’t know nearly enough to have any kind of definite opinon on the matter, but I came up with reasons why (impressive as your actions were) it is possible that your father is right
I don’t know if I will have time to explain more before Pesach and I would want to think about it more in any case. I think some of them were points that you yourself made. B”n, I might try to write more either during Chol hamoed or after Pesach.
But in any case, I definitely think you should ask a sheilah about it, since I am sure you would want to know if you should be doing teshuva and/or asking mechila from him and you might not be allowed to do that if your actions were correct. Also, I’m sure you would like to have closure either way.
It is very important when it comes to something like this that you make sure to ask the right person. Obviously whenever you ask a sheilah, you need to ask someone competent.
But when it comes to hilchos LH, I find it is particularly important. There are many people who are qualified to answer questions in other topics but not necessarily in hilchos l”h. In addition to knowing the halachos very well, you also have to be unusually perceptive, and of course a person who is himself very makpid on hilchos l”h.
Personally, I think this is a sheilah that may need to be asked to a Gadol.
I do think it’s a good idea to think it through as thoroughly as possible first so that when you present it to the Rav you can make sure to present all the relevant factors and halachos. I find that sometimes when I ask a sheilah, there are halachos or factors that I knew that the Rav was not aware of, and once I presented these facts or halachos it changed the way he answered me.
“You’ll have to take that up with Hagaon Hatzadik R’ Shmuel Aurebach.”
+1. Like MW, I follow Rav Chaim Shlita and Rav Shteinman Shlita, but no one has a right to be mevaeh Talmidei Chachamim.
Thanks so much!!
“I am aware of the “Respect him, Suspect him” clause. But does this only apply when the person tells you means it l’toeles?”
That’s a good question, and I want to look into it over Shabbos or Yomtov.
But there’s something else here. Even if you are allowed to “respect him, suspect him” in such a case (and I’m not sure what the halacha is), I would think that would only apply in a case in which there was toeles on your part. Was there “toeles” on your part when you heard the Loshon Hora?
If not, according to halacha, does it help if there is toeles later?
Also, part of the problem here seems to be that even if you are allowed to be “choshesh”, I am not sure if you are ever allowed to be “mekabel”. I am not sure about that though, so that is one of the things I want to look into.
If you were in fact not allowed to be “mekabel” but only to be “choshesh”, it would seem that perhaps the proper approach would be what I wrote above – don’t suspect or accuse him of something wrong – simply point out to him that his words could be understood that way, so he should be careful about what he says. I would think that could be a more effective approach in any case. Although I don’t know the person, so I could be wrong.
Does that make sense to you? And would it have been possible and effective?
Yekke – thank you for clarifying. The thing is that if l’maaseh the fact is the people present “knew” about the background (whether or not it was in fact true), they were in fact “hearing” him be mevazeh a Talmid Chacham. It would seem to me that that MIGHT make his words problematic. (emphasis on might – I don’t want to be guilty of motzi shem ra, since you know the person you are speaking of, so it would be assur for me to say he did something wrong, since it’s possible he didn’t – I am merely raising a possibility – DON’T BE MEKABEL as a fact – I am just trying to figure out what the halacha could be in such a situation).
In any case, this doesn’t mean he actually did something wrong, since his intention was not to be mevazeh a Talmid Chacham, but it would make sense to point out to him respectfully that his words COULD be taken that way.
Maybe that is the answer – don’t be mekabel the LH and don’t think he was intentionally being mezazeh a Talmid Chacham, but simply point out to him respectfully that his words could be heard that way even if he didn’t mean it that way.
Would that have worked in this situation?
Ubiquitin – based on your last post, the issue is greater than not being aware of the reason for the protests.
It’s about not being aware of the purpose of this thread, and more importantly the purpose of our existence.
DY:”Oh, come one, people can live without bread for eight (plus) days but not coffee or chocolate?” –
Yes!!! What kind of question is that???!!!!
It’s not like all grain foods are forbidden – we do eat matzah which is a form of bread.
And for some of us it’s only 7 days.
Yungerman – some of them you already listed next to the State. For example:
Colorado – Denver
Nevada -Los Vegas
Rhode Island – Providence
Indiana – South Bend
Missouri – Saint Louis
Minnesota -Minneapolis
ZD – while what you are saying may be true, I think the issue is that it seems problematic to say that something that we read at the Seder every year does not apply anymore.
The whole idea of Pesach and the Seder is about passing on the Mesorah from generation to generation, so it does seem difficult to say that the way we are told on Pesach at the Seder to be mechanech our children and pass on the mesorah no longer applies. That is the antithesis of what the Pesach Seder is about!
I think though the answer is what I wrote earlier. We can’t say that it doesn’t apply at all, but we have to think carefully about when and how we apply it. There may be children today who seem like the Rasha in the Haggada but are not.
That is not a complete answer, but only the beginning of an answer. One still has to think about it and figure out how and when to apply it. One of the themes of the Seder is getting the children to ask questions. When I was a kid we had to take a test before Pesach called a “halacha yomis” test on Hilchos Pesach. I remember that half the answers to the questions were “so the children will ask”. I remember thinking about how illogical that was. If the point was “so that the children will ask” then there has to be an answer, so why weren’t we being given an answer?
But I think I just chapped. I think the point is that sometimes a question is better than the answer. I think this is one of those times.
I think this is a question that doesn’t have a simple answer. The answer is neither “Well, today it’s different.” or “No, our generation has it all wrong. We are supposed to be tough, etc.”
The answer is neither of those. The answer is that this is something to think about. Chinuch is not a simple thing. People are complex. Sometimes one must use one method and sometimes another. Each child is different and each situation is different. Don’t make assumptions, but rather, try to understand the person and where his question is coming from and what the tailor-made approach is for him.
Thank you Yekke for providing an excellent question.
Rebshidduch -you keep making false accusations about me. I already explained to you why they are false, yet you keep repeating the same false accusations. Please stop it already.
DY:”why-isnt-coffee-or-chocolate-kitniyos”
Because the Rabbanim aren’t goizer something that the tzibor can’t keep.
Also, it’s pikuach nefesh since some of us would not be able to survive for 7 days without chocolate.
ZD – that’s an interesting point. I wonder who does these surveys and how they do them.
LF – +1!
Zaltzvasser – he is a guy, but that has nothing to do with it. He has mentioned in the past that he does a lot of the Pesach cleaning.
Isaac – Oy! I feel so bad for people who have OCD this time of year! I don’t know if I can think of anything more torturous than having OCD Erev Pesach! That must be a nightmare.
I do agree with LF and it bothers me when people are too negative about Pesach cleaning, but I definitely sympathize with people who have OCD this time of year and I hope that their Geulah comes soon so they can truly appreciate all aspects of Pesach including cleaning for chometz!!
Ubiquitin, from the last sentence of your last post, it sounds like you are not even aware of the reason for the protests. I think you should find out the reason for the protests before you start criticizing the protesters.
Rebshidduch – you asked for advice. You are the one who said that he is bad for you, and you asked us what you should do about it. I can’t apologize for believing you and I can’t apologize for giving advice when asked. I am actually offended that you are criticizing me for doing what you asked me to doi nstead of thanking me. I find that offensive and uncalled for.
btw, I am extremely impressed that you had the guts to do that!! I don’t think I would have.
Something just occurred to me. As I wrote before, I am unsure of the halachos of being mekabel L”H and I have to look into that.
But let’s say you weren’t mekabel the LH. It sounds like you should have considered the guy to have been speaking LH anyhow even without being mekabel the LH. The fact is that the LH had been spread and people were mekabel it. In light of that, the people listening to him speak were hearing his words in that context, rendering the words loshon hora.
As you wrote, everyone considered the Talmid Chacham to have been degredated by his words. Even if the whole story was completely untrue, l’maaseh since it was spread and accepted, the Talmid Chacham was in fact degradated by his words, so his words remain LH, intentional or not.
At least that is how it sounds to me. I may not be understanding the case correctly since it is a bit hard to understand without the details. Does what I am saying make sense to you?
You might want to look into Melamed Academy. It’s a Frum online school – both elementary and high school.
Those matzas must be pretty stale by now…
In my house, we only eat Matzas that were baked in Mitzrayim as the Yidden were leaving.
What about לו יהי? Who knows what that’s from?
Achashverosh, Achashverosh, A..A…chashverosh
(That’s the only one I know – what’s Amadeus? :))