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I sure hope that my chosson doesn’t think he’s settling by marrying and that he considers me his “dream Kallah”, and I hope I don’t feel that I’m settling by marrying him and that I consider him my “dream chosson”.
My favorite line about shidduchim comes from a shiur I heard online from Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz. He said, “You are not allowed to settle; if anyone tells you to settle, tell them to go somewhere!”
Perhaps what people mean when they talk about settling is realizing that certain things aren’t essential and that your kallah/chosson is a wonderful dream chosson/kallah without those things. But I wouldn’t call that settling.
That’s a great question! I have to look into the halachos of being mekabel loshon hora before I can even attempt an answer, because I realized when I read your post that I am not clear on some of those halachos. Maybe that will be my “Pesach homework”. Thank you for giving me something (important) to learn over Pesach.
Meno – thank you for responding to Boyswork for me. I would also say that the answer to #1 is the same as the answer to #2.
Until now, I was always in favor of (or at least not against) boys and girls meeting on their own. I think I may have even written things to Rebshidduch at one point to that effect. However, from things that she subsequently wrote, I realized that it’s probably a very bad idea for her (and maybe for many others, especially in her age range). But again, you are coming in the middle.
I will just say that it has absolutely nothing to do with what other people think. It has to do with the fact that for many people it is beneficial or even necessary to have some kind of older, wiser go-between for these things. I know a couple who met on their own but chose an older, wiser person to be their shadchan, and it greatly helped to facilitate the shidduch.
Rebshidduch, I would appreciate it if you could clarify what your question is now. That would make it much easier for us to answer it, if you really do want an answer (from Meno, myself, or anyone else).
Thank you.
Rebshidduch,
First of all, I’m really sorry if I offended you in any way. I did not intend to do so. I also did not intend to speak badly about a boy whom I don’t even know and whom I’m sure if I did know, I would have a lot of good things to say about. Obviously, if you like him so much, he must be a very nice person.
Second of all, there are a few different things here:
1. Saying someone is not nice.
2. Saying someone is bad.
3. Saying someone is bad for you.
These are 3 entirely different things. As far as I can recall, I never said 1 or 2. I am sure that I did say #3.
However, it was completely as a result of what you said. It was really you saying it; I simply repeated your words back to you. I think that if you go back and read your old posts on the topic (as someone once wisely suggested), you will understand what I mean.In any case, I really hope you are moichel me and I am really sorry if I hurt you in any way.
Oh, I just reread the title. No, Joeseph is not real. However, Joseph is.
Is RebYidd real?
Is the Coffee Room real?
Are the moderators real?
What’s a piston?
Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream…
Yekke: “You always have ืืืืขืช ืืืื, but you donโt always have ืืฉืืืืช ืื ืืืื. There is a difference between being aware, and being fully cognizant of the fact enough that you feel it. Call it the ืฉืืืชื ืโ ืื ืืื ืชืืื.”
I got that that was what you meant from your previous post, but I just don’t see it personally. I think that I am always “fully cognizant of the fact enough that I feel it.”. Of course there are different levels and what I mean by that would not be what Rav Chaim Shlita would mean by it, but I do think those words describe the way I feel all of the time, at least on some level. And I certainly don’t feel Hashem’s Presence any less even when I do something wrong. I actually am probably even more aware of it.
According to a friend of mine I am unusual in that I always approach things rationally and I think in black and white terms (meaning, if something is wrong, don’t do it, period). I’m not sure if I’m as unusual as she thinks, since I think that there are many people I know like that. But it could be that most people don’t work that way.
The point is that even when I do something wrong, I am doing it because I feel like I need to because I am not on the level of being perfect. It is not because I just “forgot about Hashem” or stopped thinking or something.But maybe other people don’t work that way. I’ve never been inside anyone else’s head so I wouldn’t know. It’s also possible that I am not as self-aware as I think I am, but I really don’t think so.
Personally, I have a hard time understanding how it’s possible to not be aware of Hashem’s Presence ever.
PS: I just gave away my identity if she is reading this, and she told me she reads the CR sometimes.
Yekke – I hear. You are probably right, so I’m glad you stuck to your position. I thought about it and realized that you actually did a really good job already. Shkoyach!
WTP -lol.
My first thought was that you were being funny, but then I realized that you are right. The fact that people act one way in a foxhole has nothing to do with what the standards of kashrus should be in the army the rest of the time – and the vast majority of the time, soldiers are not in foxholes. Actually, most or many soldiers are not even combat soldiers.
Personally, I don’t think I ever forget about Hashem. Any time I’ve ever done anything wrong, I was always solidly aware of Hashem – I just felt like I needed to do what ever I was doing. I’m not sure that I understand how it’s possible to not be solidly aware of Hashem (I’m only speaking of myself obviously – I am not sure what goes on in other people’s heads. Obviously, I can also be wrong about what goes on in my own head/heart, but I really don’t think I am).
“Part of the discussion in this thread was supposed to be about exactly this: Iโm not sure that the correct response necessarily means the most effective one.”
That’s interesting – I hadn’t realized that was your point. I’ll have to think about that. I think that the point of the response to the Rasha is precisely because it is the most effective for him. Of course, one could “taaneh” as I think someone already did that the point is for the others there. But I think that the point is for him as well. We don’t give up on anyone – certainly not another Jew.
I tried paying with my buscard instead of my credit card at the pharmacy, and then I used my credit card instead of my buscard on the bus.
Rebshidduch – I never said that your friend is not a nice boy. Where do you see that I said that? I don’t even know him – how could I know if he’s nice or not?
That’s not a bad idea – I’d much rather date myself than most of the guys I’ve gone out with.
I would not consider that boy to be someone who is sinning deliberately and I would not call him a rasha. I would consider him to be in the category of someone who is at-risk because of psychological issues. He was doing aveiros only because he was going through a very hard time.
I don’t know the boy, but I’m not shocked. I think that I and most people have done similar things, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I don’t know if I would have ever said that I was angry at Hashem, but I have certainly done aveiros in my life because I was upset with other people, which is kind of the same thing but to a lesser degree if you think about it (since everything comes from Hashem).
I remember once when I was 16 doing something that I knew was wrong (although I was able to rationalize it as being technically mutar which may or may not have been correct) just because I was upset about something, and I remember thinking that it might not really have been okay but I was too upset to care.
The boy you are describing does not sound anything like the Rasha in the Hagadah. And he does not sound like someone who would have gained from the approach used in the Haggadah.
NE – I hear your point and you may be right. The problem was that something was being used as a proof that others are wrong and that something itself is a proof that it’s not the others who are wrong. If it weren’t for the sake of defending anyone, I would also agree that a response is not called for. The question is how one can refute the premise and defend one without offending the other or if that is not possible, would it be okay to defend one even if it involves offending the other? Also, it would probably help to have sources to quote which I don’t and I thought he might.
I do have an idea for a possible response and I might do so when I have a chance to think it through better.
“Maybe Iโm missing something”
“Yes, maybe you are.”
Really now? So what was it then?
Thanks for letting us know.
Now if we could use colors like you can, it would probably make the posts more interesting and easier to read. We could use a different color for each paragraph.
Why are there no paragraph breaks? Is this temporarty like the awaiting moderations disappearing?
Avram & Yekke +1!
I wish the ???’s could be fixed. It’s kind of annoying to read posts that have all these ???????s instead of words????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Golfer & Nechomah – +1
Yekke – very nice Dvar Torah.
Shopping wrote that she finds it hard to find music that is her style. Maybe I’m missing something (or something was deleted) but I didn’t see that as loshon hora on the Jewish entertainment world. She didn’t write that there is a problem with Jewish entertainment, simply that a lot of it is not her style. Even in terms of “her style”, she clearly thinks it exists; that is the reason for this thread.
“Yes shopping, I agree, it is hard to find frum music that is heavy metal. I wonder why you think that is. Do you think itโs a lack of proficiency on the part of frum musicians? Do you think there could be another reason?”
My understanding of Shopping’s post was that was EXACTLY her point. I thought that she was trying to explain that her initial post was not meant as a negative statement on the Jewish entertainment world since obviously it’s going to be hard to find Frum music that is heavy metal, etc. just like it’s hard to find Frum books about magic.
Am I understanding you correctly, Shopping?
Oh, and kol hakavod on your super-nicely written second post!! I was super-impressed!
Yekke – you had written that in response to something else, not to the particular post that I quoted.
In any case, kol hakavod for thinking so much before you don’t post. I do think that this post requires a response, but I’m not sure I’d be able to do it right and I think you would be.
ZD: “If you want a proper protest, go to the Beis Medrash and say Tehilim.”
Great idea – maybe you should follow it instead of protesting in the CR against the demonstrators.
MisterYudi – while it’s true that when it comes to hashkafa, sometimes there is more than one side to things, that would be part of my opinion. I would stress the side that is necessary depending on what is relevant to the specific argument taking place.
For example, I might believe that there are both good things and bad things about the State of Israel. If someone was posting that there is nothing bad about it, I would say that there is. But if someone said that there was nothing good about it, I might say that there is.
It is true that that there are people/posters who are very set in their ideology and have never tried to consider anything else and never tried to see the other side. For example, there are some who are sure that Zionism is completely good and anything the anti-Zionists say is false, and they don’t try to consider their point of view. And the opposite as well. There are people who think a harsh tactic is necessary when dealing with tznius issues or kids-at-risk and haven’t tried considering the opposite, and vice versa.
Those posters/people should certainly try to consider the other side (since as you point out, when it comes to many of these issues, there is more than one side). The problem is that your point can be misunderstood or misused if used by the wrong people. And the problem is that it is precisely those people who will be open-minded enough to follow your suggestion.
It is precisely those people who do consider both sides before reaching their conclusions who will listen to your advice and try to argue for a position that they KNOW is wrong since they are open-minded enough to have thought through the issue and to have consulted with Daas Torah and/or researched the matter BEFORE they reached their conclusion. That is actually why I directed my post to Yekke (and hadn’t said anything until then even though I had some doubts about this) – because I feel that he is someone who does seem to fall into this last category.
So your idea would be a good idea if taken by those who haven’t yet considered the other side. But I’m just wondering how likely that is to happen. And meanwhile, it is precisely those people who shouldn’t be doing it are doing it.
And while you are right that people should learn to overcome biases, I’m not sure this is the way to do it.
“So all you are suggesting, in reality, is that WE, the peasants, are not allowed to think for ourselves, and instead we must have others think for us. And not only that, but we are not even allowed to consider the benefits of other peopleโs hashkafos/ halachic rulings, and that only OURS are correct, and are the only real truth.”
That is not the point at all. Sometimes there are different valid opinions according to the Torah, but sometimes there are Frum people who have opinions that are WRONG and are not based on Torah. As one of my teachers used to say, ” ืฉืืขืื ืคื ืื ืืชืืจื and not 71. There are opinions that are sheker. There are definitely opinions brought in the CR that are sheker and not valid opinions according to the Torah.
As stated previously, if someone is a well-thought out person, he will have considered what the correct and incorrect points of view are according to the Torah and Gedolei HaTorah BEFORE he reaches his opinions. If he argues against someone in the CR, it will be because he has already thought about it and learned about and knows what the Torah viewpoint is and knows that the other person is wrong.
Takahmamash: “Yekke2: kol hakavod to your sons. My daughters, but thank you just the same.”
Yekke, I’m waiting for you to respond to that.
ZD – If someone came late to their chavrusa because there were pedestrians crossing on a crosswalk and they had to wait for them, you wouldn’t blame the pedestrians. If they were held up because there was a lot of unexpected traffic because of a Simcha, you wouldn’t blame the baalei hasimcha or the people attending the Simcha.
If you were late to a chavrusa because the streets were closed off because the President of the US was visiting, you wouldn’t blame the President. If the streets were closed off or blocked because of a Yom HaAtzmaut parade, you wouldn’t blame the people having the parade.
In Israel, protests/demonstrations are a normal, common, accepted practice, and they are held for all sorts of reasons by all types of people – left wing, right wing, secular, religious-zionists, and Chareidim.
This being the case, I am not sure that they are any different than any of the above examples. Of course, one must ask a sheilah since, as you correctly point out, there may be several halachic issues involved. But it is very possible and even likely that there are Gedolim/Rabbanim who allow and encourage demonstrations in certain cases. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that these boys did not ask a sheilah, and in fact, it may be assur to assume that they didn’t.Yekke- when I used the term “deliberately”, I didn’t mean what you are talking about. What you are talking about is someone giving into his yetzer hora. While it’s technically “b’maizid”, on some level it’s not. I’m pretty sure that there is somewhere (I can’t remember where) where such an aveira is referred to as “shogeig” in the sense that the person did not really WANT to sin, they just had a hard time controlling their yetzer hara since as you wrote, we are not perfect and we are all works in progress.
I had been talking about people who sin deliberately – who don’t care and aren’t even trying. That seemed to be what you were talking about when you referred to your friends as reshaim.
blubluh – very nice! I like that! It may or not be novel, but I don’t think I ever heard it before. Did you come up with it on your own?
I don’t think it can be considered the “pshat” so the OP’s question still remains, but it’s a really nice idea nonetheless.
“Lilmod, please stop putting him down.”
What was this in response to?
“Meno, if someone asks a question it is usually because they want help.”
What is your question? (I think Meno was confused about that as well).
Avi – What you wrote is a complete falsehood.
1. He was an Israeli, not an American2. They really used a roll for the afikomen. They were trying to hide this fact from him, and he found out.
3. Apparenly, the IDF Rabbinate is not able to control everything that goes on.
4. He went to the Army because he thought it was a Mitzvah to do so and he was very idealistic about the Army and was shocked when he found that out.
5. He stopped being Frum in the army even though he was super-Frum before he went in.
I had no problem with the “awaiting moderation”. I thought it was cool. It meant that every time I logged on, even if there were no new moderated posts, I got to see something new. And I got to see who had commented, and it gave me something to look forward to.
I am wondering how we will know if our posts were deleted by the moderators or simply not moderated yet.
Iacisrmma – in what way do you think there is a Martian/Venusian issue here? I am very into that, but I wasn’t sure where it came in here and was curious where you saw it. I’m especially confused because I thought it was Meno and I with one point of view and you and Boyswork with another.
Please note: I have no idea what’s popular or not, so the fact that someone is on my list does not necessarily mean that they aren’t well-known
Shaindel Antelis and Chanala Fellig – FOR WOMEN ONLY!!!!
Pinny Schachter
Ari Goldwag
Choni Goldman
“I might seem extreme right wing on the CR, where discussions are theoretical, but I guess Iโm much nicer a person in real life, and have friends of all shapes and sizes in different social circles.”
I don’t think there’s a stira between the two. Some of the nicest people I know are extreme right wing… And btw, you do come across as very nice in the CR (which is an accomplishment!).
“I donโt know why today every criminal is simply a ืืืื. Is there not such a thing as a Yetzer Hara? There are enough Gemaras about the Yetzer Hara that I donโt need to bother quoting. Everyone has one. BโH, most of us are ืขืืื ืขื ื ืกืืื, some/most of the time. But laziness, taivah and peer pressure can do terrible things to someone who needs that extra bit of freedom. Not every ืขืืืจื can be blamed on psychological trauma!”
I guess I’m also really a liberal despite the fact that I also probably come across as extreme right wing in the CR :).
I have a hard time believing that anyone can truly be bad deliberately. It’s just not logical to be deliberately bad. I always feel like there must be something behind it and like there must be a way to reach everyone.
To some extent (as I always have to remind myself) this does not seem to be the Torah’s hashkafa. There clearly is a concept of reshaim such as Haman, hitler, nazis, Arab terrorists, hard as it is for me to grasp.
On the other hand, to a certain extent, it is the Torah’s hashkafa. According to the Torah, everyone has the potential to do Teshuva, and there are many Gedolim stories about Gedolim who saw the good in everyone and thus were able to bring it out.
Even if you say that it’s not psychological and it’s the Yetzer Hora, according to Chazal that is a psychological problem on some level ืืื ืืื ืขืืืจ ืขืืืจื ืืื ืื ืื ื ืื ืก ืื ืจืื ืฉืืืช
As you wrote, most people are able to be ืขืืื ืขื ื ืกืืื most of the time. It is in a person’s best interest to be Frum and most people who are brought up Frum stay that way. For those that give in to their yetzer hara and stop being Frum, I think there must have been some reason why they had a harder time than most (be it nature, nurture, or something that happened to them), even if it’s not something so obvious like abuse or psychological problems.
Shopping – +1 for your excellent post.
Regarding the chillul Hashem issue, as I stated previously, the problem is the way it was reported on YWN. You wrote that one can see on YWN that thousands of people were protesting civilly. If one only glances at the headlines on YWN, he does not see that. He sees headlines describing the protesters in extremely libelous terms.
“You are correct though that there is much room for improvement. The way to effect that is from within. Thus Rav Tau rebuked MK Smotrich for calling for guys to stop enlisting. The same goes for other areas of society. In fact, Rav Yaakov Ariel explicitly stated that it is a mitzva for those knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges.”
Again, my point was not about what the response should be. I happen to disagree with you on that, but that wasn’t the point. My point was simply that the government is doing something wrong. Apparently you do agree with that point.
One’s disagreement with the way that people deal with the government should not blind them to the fact that the government is doing something wrong (by having an army that is not run according to halacha and drafting people to that army).