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Yoshi,
Just be careful there. There have been stories of the “wrong” person showing up at the advertisers house.
starwolf, Torah Jews defined as in following the Torah in the specific action in reference. Rav Yosef is no Zionist. Your implication otherwise was good for a laugh.
AZ,
Are you belittling our efforts to reinstate polygamy?? You yourself admitted a few posts back that it would help resolve the age gap! And I’ve told you above that I am sincere in this, I truly believe in it. And I see other posters do as well, haifagirl and I’m sure many others.
Will you help support us in this effort? And to repeat, yes, I truly believe this will help and am very sincere about it.
If I call NASI will they assist in this noble effort to help alleviate the age gap issue??
haifagirl,
What problems did you notice that prompted you to support polygamy?
AZ,
Of course, as with the Kol Koreh for the age gap issue, the proposed Kol Koreh, that will be distributed to the Gedolim for their signatures, reinstating polygamy will only be suggestive and not mandatory. No one, man or woman, will be required to participate in a polygamous marriage, but merely encouraged to do so.
ronrsr, I thought it was for 500 years, and that is has expired but that no one ever officially reinstated it. But the Sefardim never has a ban in the first place.
ronrsr,
I think haifagirl’s earlier suggestion that we work towards modifying the laws on polygamy is the way to go here. And with that, we can regulate the legal aspects of it, including inheritance, etc. It would well be worth the effort.
I was not being facetious in the least bit. Nor did I get the impression that haifagirl was. haifagirl, where you being at all facetious? I didn’t think so.
I do agree with AZ though that we need to go to the Gedolim and collect signatures for a Kol Koreh for this purpose.
haifagirl, mazca asked what is the “role” of a frum man in life. You’ve only mentioned side points. 🙂
I’d say Torah is the “role” of a frum man.
I agree with haifagirl that it would be a good idea in general (in addition to alleviating any claimed numbers crisis) to reinstate polygamy.
starwolf, Once again you completely missed the boat. Sure, society by its imposition identifies some people as Chareidi. And as a matter of verbal convenience some of those people refer to themselves as such. But they are not a “stream of Judaism”. They are merely the folks who follow the traditions laid forth at Har Sinai.
I know this is a painful fact for those who don’t follow these traditions, and they thus deny this truth. But be that as it may, as painful for them as this fact is, it shall be spoken.
P.S. to sharer: You previously claimed in the MO thread that you will ignore my future posts. I see though the real “truth” still painfully penetrates into you. 🙂
sharer, That is precisely what I stated. There is no such thing as “Chareidi”. Not then, and not now. See my above remarks.
Additionally, dina demalchusa dina is primarily applicable only on monetary matters the State regulates (i.e. taxes.) It does not override our own laws on legal matters.
tzippi,
haifagirl is absolutely correct.
(And in addition, even with current laws it can be accomplished by simply not legally marrying anyone. The Fundamentalist Mormons and certain immigrants from Africa already practice it in the U.S. without interference, as long as there is no other laws violated the authorities don’t bother anyone.) So as long as a person did not civilly marry more than one, he is not violating any law.
bein_hasdorim,
I don’t think it is such a bad idea to reinstate it. Remember it is optional (for both genders), not mandatory.
justaguy, That depends on the surgeons intentions. If his primary motivator is the gelt, I don’t see any mitzvos racking up on his cheshbon.
starwolf, There is no such thing as “Hareidi” Judaism. That is a term invented by outsiders. Hareidi Judaism is not a movement. It is synonymous with the Judaism that was established at Har Sinai.
Jothar, I don’t see the chilik. That is just blaming (Rav Schneir and the other Lakewood and Mir and other large R”Y’s), without using the word “blame”.
AZ,
Where has this been documented? Where can I find such documentation? You frequently refer, in the abstract, to alleged proofs but offer none of them when asked.
Additionally, you never responded to why there was no shidduch crisis of a shortage of available women when we practiced polygamy. Ashkenazim stopped only by Raabeinu Gershom but Sephardim continued until recent times.
mazca, I guess that must have been before the Age Gap Crisis started.
Actually Bear’s position on the State is pretty tame, slightly right-of-center.
And from his comments it is obvious he is a supporter of the Jewish Yishuv (?????? ????). It is the Non-Jewish “Yishuv” that he, like all Torah Jewry, opposes.
Jothar, So which Roshe Yeshivos gets the blame for the current situation of too large Yeshiva’s? Rav Schneir? After all, implicitly that is where the blame is being put. The R”Y’s of these large Yeshiva’s DID allow it to grow to its great size.
hud, Can you believe what people will stoop to promote Aroyos??
hss, C’mon, I’ve never heard of anyone with gray hair being carded…
B’H I don’t see Kollel’s going out of business. B’H there are a lot of people in Klal Yisroel willingly supporting Kollel yungerleit in a modern day Yissachar-Zevulun relationship. Both the Kollel yungerleit and the baalei batim who enthusiastically pay to share in the schaar of the great mitzvah of Talmud Torah benefit. It’s a great deal for both parties. The public isn’t supporting the Kollel yungerleit anymore than the Kollel yungerleit are supporting the public with their Torah. It’s a business proposition between the two parties. No one is putting a gun to anyone’s head, the baalei batim are more than willing to be partners with the Kollel.
So why all the antagonism towards Kollel?? If you don’t want to participate in this mitzvah, I guess you don’t have to. There are many others more than willing to pick up your slack. I’ve seen the same recycled arguments against Kollel for the past 30 years, yet Kollel is going as strong as ever — in fact stronger than 30 years ago. Obviously it is working out quite well for everyone involved. Everytime there is a bad economy you have people yelling this is it. It happens each time, and the cynics are proven wrong every time. And when the economy is good these same folks are complaining about something else about “the system”. As unyielding as they are, the Torah is as strong as ever.
There are no defaults in life.
Kollel is for all those who desire it.
gavra, Also, as a result of Kol Kevudah and other Chazal’s a psak won’t be that a woman must work in an office type environment. At most, perhaps, home bound work. Did you hear of any psak on this issue regarding tuition breaks?
AZ,
1. Why wasn’t there a shidduch crisis when polygamy was in effect? It should have resulted in their not being enough wives for all the men, as some men had multiple wives.
Obviously, this is normal and how G-d wants the world to run insofar as shidduchim are concerned. Same in our days.
2. If the shidduch crisis today is not enough husbands, then if we reinstate polygamy the women who today (allegedly) would otherwise never be able to get married, could marry a man who already has another wife.
I also don’t understand how haifagirl got an answer not to wash. She said her Rabbi gave her the reasons, so perhaps she can clarify. But I suspect the more likely answer is she mis-interperted, misunderstood, or mis-described the situation – either to her Rabbi or to us. (No offense!) Perhaps she can clarify it again with him.
gavra, Actually that isn’t the original point of this thread. 😉 Nevertheless, the far more typical case is both parents are working and STILL cannot afford the tuition.
justaguy, They should never have been neglectful towards hygiene. Mah Inyan Shmita Eitzel Har Sinai? Ah kasha oif ah maaseh.
cherrybim, You can maintain both proper tznius and proper hygiene. You can maintain proper hygiene even without intermingling.
Jothar, Then apparently they disagree with Rav Kotler zt’l, the other Roshei Yeshiva’s of BMG, Rav Finkel zt’l, Rav Shmuelevitz zt’l, and the other Roshei Yeshiva’s of Mir (amongst many others).
AZ,
Once again, you are putting words into the mouths of the Rabbonim that they have never uttered or written in their suggestions on this issue. You’ve done the same before, with taking Torah learners out of the Yeshiva’s in EY, and now you are putting “reasons” why the Rabbonin made their suggestions.
The Rabbonim never gave all the reasons you did for their letter with the suggestions. And certainly not how you’ve presented it.
Let’s call a spade a spade. These reasons are from YOUR mind, not the Rabbonim’s.
tzippi, I go to Rabbi Reisman’s shiur on occasion and can completely assure you he does not allow men shaking a woman’s hand in the office, nor does he encourage women working in an office where it is not absolutely essential.
gavra, The tuition also pays, in good part, for the non-Jewish studies taught at Yeshiva’s. So perhaps you should be advocating that the children not be taught that, rather than the parents ask for a break on the tuition.
people should maintain proper hygiene, at all times, regardless of whether they are in a mixed environment or not.
Absolutely.
Isn’t it better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than not to do the right thing at all?
No. And certainly not in this case. Aroyos, by design and due to nature, has the most Gedorim and Siyagim for good reason.
gavra, I don’t have the mekor at my fingertips, but it is halacha that a father’s obligation to support his son ends at 13. Let me know what you think and how you think it fits into your points about tuition breaks.
gavra, According to your argument, a parent should take his child (over age 13) out of school and put him to work rather than take a tuition break. A parent’s legal obligation to support his child ends at 13, so according to the argument you are advancing, the parent has no right to take a tuition break rather than finding his son a job and putting him to work (rather than sending him to school).
Nothing; except for the reason it is being done. See the context of the discussion.
gavra, Read the above dialog and the answer will be clear to you.
starwolf – Are there not strict limitations to what a person who did not serve in the Israeli military can work as? Those are the limitations I am referring to in the government preventing frum folks from working.
“Actually, those frum folks are not subject to the same tax laws as they are exempt from paying city and property taxes in many places. And many refuse to pay bituach leumi, which pays for national health care–but still receive that health care.”
The municipalities have an exemption for frum people from paying city and property tax? Or rather the frum people qualify for some exemptions that are available to all under the law?
And only frum folks refuse to pay bituach leumi? Or do non-frum folks refuse as well?
gavra, According to your argument, you should also be insisting that parents put their children who are over 13 years old to work, rather than taking a tuition break.
cherry, I am just curious what your reason as a former out of towner was to move to Brooklyn (like thousands of others)?
Actually there is another thread on the main page now that someone addressed that point. So forgive me for copying it here:
All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
“What’s OP?”
Opening Post.
“The reality is however, the reality. The male population, whether me or yeshiva bochrim or our elderly, when placed in a mixed setting we will be more attentive to our hygiene requirements.”
That is true. Which is EXACTLY the point. And is why we MUST take extra precautions to prevent the mingling.
cherry, That’s because you now are living in a Makom Torah.
Afterall, why else did you move to this great Yiddish’ neighborhood? All the thousands of former out of towners now living in area with Shuls, Beis Medrash’s, Yeshiva’s, Rabbonim, Rebbeim, and Rebbe’s literally every few feet testify every day they live there after having moved in!
nameless, You both implicitly and explicitly answered your own query.
A woman’s career is in the home.
Jothar, Nevertheless the premise you are presenting is that perhaps there is something inherently wrong with going to a big Yeshiva like BMG or Mir Yerushlayim. I think you should give pause prior to making such generalizations.
cherry, Actually I have to disagree with you and agree with the mods. The premise of your deleted “joke” was that frum guys are doing something to be more attractive to unknown girls on a bus. This premise itself is unacceptable, and indeed the issue the OP raised on this thread.