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Dear Avira,
“please provide one person called a navi in a serious context”
Why is it always about being called the title? Orthodox, apikores, navi, etc. It seems like you really need to reexamine the fundamentals.
A false prophet will be called a prophet by those whom he misleads. A true prophet has to be truthful. He doesn’t need to have a prophecy profile on LinkedIn.
But even from your limited perspective, there was the renowned Chozeh of Lublin. He wasn’t a one off example.
This is getting out of hand.
Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.
I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything</anything>. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. The fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.
The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324
The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.
Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562
However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587
It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616
And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694
The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf
And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf
In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.
The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdfHere the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdfPeople quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
???????? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????????.The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.
Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=381????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????????.
This is the closest line in the Rambam to the endless Chabad = Minus threads. It is a major stretch. If this is what the Anti Chabad has in mind, we can just consider it debunked.
Dear Mdd,
Whatever you mean. So show where Chabad has minus than Brisk doesn’t. If you can’t back yourself up, you shouldn’t be calling out others.
Dear Avira,
And on that pretty long list is some of our greatest Torah Geniuses. So, how are you making a point here? You could just admit that you don’t learn any authentic chassidus after Tanya. Nobody will look unkindly at you for it. Many Chassidum don’t learn real chassidus either.
Not what the Gemara says. And anyways the contradiction is in the Gemara itself. So don’t blame it on the Rebbe.
The Goan isn’t a proof to anything. It is more likely he agreed with Sechel83 on this one.
Dear Avira,
“but I have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.”
Does this mean that you learn everyone that your rebbeim hold of their gadlus? I thought it goes by the capabilities of the student. Not the perspective of the master.
Dear Qwerty,
“The Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes.”
There is no such Gemara.
Where does that place you in your own belief system?
Why do you not answer questions directed to you?
Why does Chabad owe you any answers?
You clearly never made a good faith effort to try to understand them.
Dear Avram,
“.. on par with Avodah Zarah or not.”
A”Z is not the same as minus.
There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel. Which is no different than going to any other kever.
Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)
The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar. This can’t be applied to Chabad as they are as observant as the rest of us.
I have pointed this out dozens and dozens of times. Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.
Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year. The individuals who seem to understand it, don’t really discuss it. Maybe this was what Rav Soloveitchik meant when he said that it is something to experience and cannot be taught.
Dear Mdd,
Nobody ever hinted at the idea that the Rebbe was sired by a god. If you think way out comparisons are exact, than you can be excused for thinking that you have a point.
Dear Arso,
You missed the difference. If you understand all the parts of ” there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf” than you know that it is not at an out of bounds idea.
Dear Avira,
Either the Chazon Ish said it or he didn’t. The Rebbe and The Chazon Ish were allowed to disagree.
You have ignored my points on your opinions about kivrei tzaddikim. I am even more against it then you. But you think that we are the majority. The problem is that every one was and is doing it. The Arizal was something close to the idea in sicha. To say oitherwise, would mean he was basically a tourist looking for a more exotic kever experience.
Dear Qwerty,
I don’t understand the question. The Rebbe knew shas and knew how to learn. It is a contradiction. All of the Ramabam’s seven causes for contradiction can be applied here. And anyways, this is not even his chiddish. Rav Tzadok Hakohen has a long essay saying that we don’t follow this whole sugyah. And every Jew will be redeemed as well as having a share in the world to come.
Here is a better question. I have pointed out that there isn’t any reason for outsiders to be attacking the authenticity of Chabad. Why have you not defended yourself?
Dear Menachem,
It depends what going crazy means. I have heard of those who had complaints about the first sichah and were opposed to the messianism as early as the Fifties. I can’t even talk about 1989 because I wasn’t born yet. The vehemence against Chabad has gone down the last decade in my circles. It does seem to me that very few non Lubavitchers ‘go crazy’ about what the Rebbe or random Lubavitchers say. If you go through the archives of this site, you will see that there aren’t that many Chabad haters. It’s it only a couple of posters per thread. There are more posters that just want an easy explanation for some of the Rebbe’s statements. These aren’t easy statements to clarify and they are not interested in all the Chassidus that is needed to understand these concepts in their proper context. So, it is good fodder for a bunch of long and pointless threads. The real life haters that I know, mostly are not interested in learning anything ever. They just want to reaffirm their stances even though they don’t know the foundational concepts of their own hashkafa.
Dear Mdd,
Maybe Chabad’s concept of a rebbe is on par with your version of a god. It is not on par with their understanding of Hashem ch”v. You can’t fault Chabad and Chassidus that you don’t have a concept of Atzilus.
Dear Qwerty,
You are aware of the different outcome of Chassidus for Lubavitch. But you are not getting into what makes it so. For all you know, The Rebbe Is Moshiach is the authentic outcome of Chabad.
1) Everybody today is careful about ‘My Leader Is Moshiach’ statements because they don’t want to be compared to Chabad. So that isn’t evidence. There are yeshiva bochurim that are just as enchanted with their Rosh Yeshiva as a Meshichist.
2) Paranormal stories that lend credence to tzaddikim being neviim are in abundance. I have not heard Chabadtzkers saying the Rebbe was a prophet as a general statement.
3) Other Chassidim have claimed their Rebbe to be among the living dead. Lubavitch is the only large group to make such a claim. Please realize that they are the only large group to stay intact for thirty years without a rebbe. The question is what do they mean by this statement and is it rooted in Chassidus.
4) We are not bothered by what they do on the street. It’s benign. Chabad is not a threat to missionize anyone of us to Chabad as long as the subject knows anything. A lot (Not all.) of the anti Chabad is missing out on the basics. So I’m fine with it. Let Chabad open their eyes a bit.
5) That Rabbi is not a lone wolf. Degenerating other gedolim is a big issue which not all of Chabad is personally aware of. And too many of them deny it. But it is just as bad in other groups. Sometimes even worse.
6) So what if Chabad believes they are exclusive? That put’s them with Brisk (Each version separately.) Half of Ponovezh, Segments of Breslov, and several small cult like groups.
7) If you want to say we disagree on certain major points with Chabad, that is true. But it is even worse with some other groups. And disagreement is not automatically heresy. There is no schism between Chabad and the rest of Klal Yisroel.
Dear Qwerty,
Shortly after I posted that, I realized that I’m wrong on that one. There is a lot of precedent on removing shochtim over even more trivial beliefs.
I don’t know if there can be such a lawsuit. My point remains that they don’t vet every shochet for his take on the ikkarim.
Dear Ujm,
The RY who told me the whole story is long gone. I don’t see any point in publicizing politics from long before I was born. Maybe I would give one example.
Dear Avirah,
I don’t see where you stated anything against my post. The Torah that is being learned is not one and the same with the mitzva (of Talmud Torah) that is being done.
Dear Taka,
Torah is compared to the midbar. There is no higher levels. The only catch is the humility of the student.
Dear Avira,
Why does the OU not check every yid to see if he is an apikores?
I understand that it is a business decision, not a halachic one.
Dear Avira,
Ketzos is learned in Chabad yeshivos. And some of them are pretty good at it.
Dear Sechel,
The litvishe yeshivos of pre war Europe were mostly shaven. This wasn’t a leniency. They knew their stuff. They disagreed with the Chofetz Chaim’s psak. That machine is now obsolete, so it’s not even a question anymore. But anyways, the last hundred years has yeilded more proofs against the Chofetz Chim’s position, than for it.
Clean working boys with good fathers go on the market around twenty. You can’t learn the same when you are married. They really should push off it even later.
Many Kollelleit finish shas or at least most of it, before they turn thirty. They just don’t advertise it, because they do not feel like they are ready to discuss any part of shas.
The not finishing the mesechta started fifty years ago. It is because there are so many boys going to yeshiva that aren’t pushing themselves hard enough to become gaonim. So, lack of productivity has become the norm in the last generation.
The percentage of yeshivaliet that learned the whole Nefesh Hachaim has been going up steadily. But I doubt it has reached even a 35%. Yeshiva guys need to learn non stop gemara more than anything else. Otherwise the yeshivos will crumble.
Dear Mods,
What happened to some of the threads and posts?
There counldn’t have been any moderation on the first six posts on the eidele bochur thread. I can’t see them anymore.
Dear Always,
You are putting different times and places into the same narrative.
Dear Qwerty,
You did not say that, it was a different poster. Now it is two posters. They are not even making an argument. Maybe when they say Christianity, they mean Breslov or Brisk. Okay, Chabad is like Breslov or Brisk.
You say that Lubavitchers treat their rebbe like a god. The Gemara tells us to have awe of our masters like the Awe of Heaven. Both Lubavitchers on this thread admitted that the Rebbe could have made a mistake.
Chabad atributes special powers to tzaddikim and they think of their rebbe as a real big tzaddik. this is not very unique to Chabad. Though they do have more of a thought system for it. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Sefer Tanya. If the sefer is no good, than go check all the classics and see who agrees with the Tanya. It’s a sugya to learn no different than any other.
My position in regard to Chabad is that there is no reason to analyze their beliefs. Their positions are no less absurd than Satmar or Ger or Skver. And atleast they have a legitimate history of these concepts and can trace the outlines of their ideas throughout the centuries.
Since you are the one attacking, it is on you to explain why it is problematic for people to have absurd ideas. And why we should debate them as if they need to drop it or face excommunication.
Dear Ujm,
I have heard it from several Elder Rosh Yeshivos. Some mentioned specific names some didn’t. It’s easy to figure it out.
RavShach may not have said it, but it was the cause for him to take up all his battles in Chareidi Israel Public Life.
I am surprised that you do not know whom DaMoshe is referring to.
Dear Follick,
For the purposes of the survey, he would be Orthodox like me and you. I think that is the whole point of the study. But everybody on this thread has a problem with that, so I’m probably missing something here.
In general we don’t term such people. Either ‘he isn’t frum/orthodox in private’ or ‘he has his struggles’ or ‘he is not in a good place’ or some other phrase, depending on the nature of the story.
If we must have a term for societal purposes, than I suggest ‘Orthophony’.
Sadly, I know a bunch of young people who left Orthodoxy. Some are still in the same general locale and some went across the country. Both may call themselves Ortodox but unobservant for this survey. It is a reflection of their inner confusions.
Dear Qwerty,
I am not Chabad at all. I have visited for a day in various Chabad Yeshivos and Shuls.
You are way off of normative chareidi outlook if you think Chabad and Christianity are two but yet the same. Almost everyone considers Cabad full Yidden. They count them for a minyan. They break bread with them. We trust their kashrus and shechita, geirus, kiddushin and gittin. I could go on for a thousand words describing how Chabad is functioning within the rest of Klal Yisroel. You don’t need to be a Lubavitcher to say this. Take a look around. It’s a fact. What makes Satmar or Ger or Skver not Christianity?
Secret societies do not come from Christianity. They come from fools who can’t find the truth and push conspiracies forever. They rise and grumble multiple times in each generation and they keep rolling into the next cycle. Jews are not immune from this.
I would post one more line to explain what I stand for. But it would be misconstrued.
Dear Avira,
At one point, many rebbes were convinced that The Rebbe was about to reveal himself as moshiach. Though they moved away from him while he was still at the peak of his abilities.
This still reverbarates behind the scenes, and has an effect on many issues in chareidi society.I don’t know who brought about more learning, it’s very debatable.
Though it would seem that Rav Shach was the greater hogeh batorah.
Dear Shimon,
I disagree. Most of the top learners are more lonlier than the crowd. To be succseful while learning, requires a great deal of camaraderie. But that is only attainable by fitting in with the culture which is an argumentative one.
Dear Eidele,
Here is what you can do. Review, review, and review! Whatever you want to discuss, prepare it so well that you would not need to look inside to confirm how you understood it. Know the words that gave you your insight verbatim. The yeshivishe mehalech puts it’s preference on the key words of what is being understood. If you know exactly which words moved you to your conclusions, you would reach the conlusion of most of your interactions much faster. This would cut out a lot of the fighting.
Dear Avira,
I get the impression that you have more of a fighting personality than the OP.
Dear Sechel,
1) You are skipping a step here, so it’s not so obvious to me that it follows that The Rebbe is Moshiach. I am not fool enough to try to debate a Chabadsker online about the exact nature of Chassidus and Kabbalah. If we meet in real life, we would have a great bull session and it would be a fun, deep, and informative.
2) I don’t know why the Kabbalistic or halachic qualifications matter. In reality, we are still in Galus as much as fifty or a hundred years ago.
Dear Neville,
A mumar l’chol HaTorah is one leaves the Jewish Community to live among with Akum for his own benefit. It doesn’t matter what he does or doesn’t keep. Nor does it matter what he believes in regard to Hasem, His Torah, or our purpose on Earth. That would be a min, kofer, or apikores. Just leaving makes one a mumar. It is that simple. There is need for an inter-faith roundtable to figure out why we are not Christians. It has it’s applications in kiruv et cetera, but it doesn’t matter among Torah Jews. Which is where this Chabad debate takes place. I really don’t know what you want out of this part of the argument.
Dear Neville,
“How people self-identify is completely meaningless.”
Exactly! If a yid identifies as an athiest or nilhist it doesn’t change his status until he is actually meeting certain criteria.
“Would you eat the food of a polytheist … and still acts Jewish?”
So how is he a polytheist? If he serves as such, than he is a mumar l’avodah zara and is not believed on his food. If he is a mumar for just praxis his food may also be problematic. If a Yid is certifying the food, than e can eat it. How does this prove anything?
Leaving Judaism is a problem of a mumar l’chol HaTorah as I explained in the other post. Even if he believes and worships correctly.
“…then everyone is still considered fine.”
No. It is not fine at all. But we are still included in the mainstream enough that there is no benefit to calling out theological differences.
Rav Dovid was just living and you could have had your answers.
But that would assume that you are open to being taught something.
Instead you have the audacity to insinuate that Rav Dovid didn’t know what he was talking about. But still Rav Elyashiv was mislead by it. Anybody who knows how to learn anything at all, can see what a fool you are.
I give up trying to get any answers out of you. You are the toughest poster I ever interacted with on this site. Even worse than Health who I miss dearly.
Even the failure of stupid planes can have severe consequences.
The problem with Jews for J is what he did by leaving. It’s not just a belief issue. I don’t really know what they believe.
I think you misunderstood my position.
Before daf yomi, going to a daily gemara shiur was part of almost every frum man’s schedule.
To learn a sugya properly, requires a clear head. And some training.
It’s not like every yungerman in kollel is coming out with clear sugyos, either.
In any event, learning shas is special.
But why would chassidus be outside of it?
Dear Emunas,
1) Christianity has the uncanny comparison to Chabad, like a dog to a dandelion. What do you prefer, scotch or bourbon?
2) It doesn’t matter where Chabad goes with Chassidus and their beliefs. As long as they stay true to the Torah, all is well. Same goes for everyone.
You said it goes against everything the Baal Shem stood for and I have no idea what you meant by that.
3) The Rebbe didn’t make a prediction. He spoke about excessively. It’s not just making a mistake. It would be abondoning his vision.
Dear Menachem,
.. questioning a tzaddik.. ..trying to understand…
I understood Tanya differently. But it’s only a small difference.
Just because I don’t question the tzaddik, it doesn’t make the tzaddik’s actions into proof for anything. Anything at all. Because who am I to know what is really going on.
Dear Mdd,
Those are one liners. The Rambam wrote many chapters on theory and two major essays on belief.
What does kiddushin prove? If one is mikadesh his sister there is no kiddushin. Obviously they must be out of the fold.
I am ignorant of so many things.
The fold here is that being Chabad has the same din of any other Yid. I thought that was a settled matter. There are some safeguards on using their geirus etc. that are put in place by Chabad itself. So obviously we trust them. What is the purpose of slandering them?
Dear Neville,
You have my perspective completely wrong.
“Halacha has no concept of kefira”
It clearly does.
“Passul from aidus”
Rambam Eidus 11:10
“…beliefs alone if they make them public.”
Quite the qualifier.
“Jews for J”
Is a clear mumar. Even if he keeps everything.
“Judaism doesn’t care about belief.”
That is not my position.
“The original idea of Reconstructionism.”
Is to take everything apart. It’s a parallel religion. They even termed it as such.
“We don’t have to put people under a microscope.”
More than that. We are allowed to ignore their opinions. Especially if it absurd.
And I will prove it to you. I have never been shy about this topic and nobody felt required to stop me at all costs. Even though it has been much more threating to some posters than anything claimed by Chabad. So there is no obligation to shut down a random person’s opinion. My take is that most of this is about our own struggles being projected onto Chabad. Why does anybody care. It works somewhat for them. And if it fails, we will not be able to help much. Do you think that our group has a much stronger theology? Do you believe that we are free of any sacred goats?
Bonus question: Do you understand why Chabad has this specific absurdity and why it was always allowed to prosper?
Maybe I should just post my whole perspective on beliefs.
Dear Follick,
Orthoprax translates to ‘right practice’ so no sneaking off for them.
5 Those that leave the requirements of Orthodoxy and don’t go anywhere else.
I don’t know why everyone ignores the realities of these people existing.
Dear Youdont,
I do not agree with anti eruv group. They are going to reimagine everything just to get their point across. But they never learned enough to make their own points. So they will just go around in circles, destroying whatever they are entrusted with.
But there is something else going on here. And you blissfully ignorant of it. Or doing a great job of faking it. You are throwing every half source at the issue to try to force it. Never mind that the petitioner didn’t care for any sources. He would carry as long as we (Or his real world associates.) don’t attack him for it. He is not here for the Torah at all. Neither are you.
Rav Shmuel Birnbaum, Rav Yisroel Belsky, and Rav Aahron Shecter, could have went to speak with Rav Elyasiv in person and he wouldn’t have felt the need to go along with them. No American Rabbonim where able to pressure him. There was a lot of people keeping him away from the public. Maybe you are lying on purpose. I can’t tell anymore.
Rav Elyashiv paskened against the eruv because of the only person who he esteemed for his Torah Knowledge. That is Rav Dovid Feinstein. Rav Dovid almost never got involved in halacha battles. Here he even brought in Rav Elyashic and Rav Chaim. He was very confident that he was right. And you shrug. Until you claim that he was mislead or whatever.
Dear Always,
I am familiar with the perspective you posted.
It’s has no basis in reality.
There was no intentional assualt on the k’hal in this battle.
Dear Sechel,
Look up your source’s sources. You are not reading it right. It is not a halacha sefer.
Ther Litvaks shaved in Europe before Rav Moshe came around. For those that actually learn the sugyos, it is simple. Though some are not comfortable because the result is the same as the razor.
For certain reasons that we won’t get into, almost none of the poskim from Europe published on the topic.
Dear Avira,
Rav Belsky was of the opinion that shavers and razors is a very simple sugya in halachah. He even published it more than once.
Having learned most of Shas is very valuable to me.
Even learning one daf is more valuable than anything on this thread.
Somebody who learned when he was young should have no problem learning a daf gemara in roughly an hour if he does it consistantly.
A lot of the laypeople learn shas well. The issue is that they don’t retain it.
Dear Neville,
Why do you support collective disavowment on this site? Anybody who takes one poster’s statements and applies it to the group that poster speaks for will end up being wrong. That is this thread in a nutshell.
Dear Qwerty,
One can claim that the Rebbe is perfect even though he sinned and still play your game. All inferences are your own. Nobody has to think that their beliefs follow your logic. People have illogical beliefs and there is nothing you or anyone can do about it. Some believe that the only way to achieve perfection is through sin.
I didn’t dodge anything. I love these topics.
Beliefs that are antithecial to Judaism includes blurring the distinction between weekdays and Shabbos. How extreme are you in theological exclusions? The Realm of Torah Judaism is what in the words of Chaal?
I pointed out on the PEW thread (As well as many times in the past.) that we do not have any thought police of an individual Jew anywhere in halacha. It is only an issue when in a leadership role.
Jews for J would not be in the fold. They are not included in ‘Amisecha’. Many sources for that. But losing Olam Habaah over beliefs does not take one out of the fold. We still are required to treat them like Jews as long as there is no spiritual danger in associating with them.