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PBA: Gebrochts is a great example, no?
Rav Yisrael Salanter is famous for having a different Shittah about drinking on Purim (see the Emek Brachah). Yes, he did used to get drunk. And from what I have heard he was a minority.
Have you ever learned nonstop for 5 months? Yes, plenty of guys need it. And those who don’t have plenty of time to learn while on break.
Stuck: And buying Tzorchei Shabbos isn’t necessary? And who says? Negiyah Derech Chibah is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. We wouldn’t be Mattir that for any circumstance, let alone the “necessity” of going to this particular job (and the Tzitz Eliezer was talking about any bus in Eretz Yisrael; as far as I recall he doesn’t specifically mention it being for work). If it’s not Assur then that means it’s Muttar in this case. If there’s Mamash no Derech Chibah V’hana’ah then it would appear to be Muttar.
PBA: I was responding to your comment about calling the opinion we don’t Pasken by being backwards. And are you sure about your Minhag thing? Rav Schachter always mentions that when he was growing up no one got wasted and I was told (only secondhand though) from a very reliable source that several Rabbonim from Europe who they had spoken to said that is was never the Minhag in Europe that everyone would get plastered. Only a few Yechidim would and they were looked down upon.
PBA: I find this whole discussion beyond ironic. Isn’t what everyone says is the problem with “MO” here the fact that they like to pick and choose Rishonim to fit their agendas (others’ words, not mine).
Stuck: Just because it doesn’t sound Kosher to you doesn’t mean it isn’t. Rav Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer both have famous T’shuvos pointing out that it’s Muttar to sit next to women on a bus and be squeezed into a subway train with them. There’s no Derech Chibah or Hana’ah and there’s no Issur.
The Kanoi Next Door: So it’s a Kula to not get drunk? Interesting. I would have thought that the “kula” was the Heter to get wasted, which everyone agree is absolutely an Issur Gamur all year round. I guess that goes back to the old saying that there’s no such thing as a Chumra which isn’t Mavie Lidei Kula and vice versa.
PBA: Find me once where I personally claimed that. I explained what the opinion and the Tzad of those against MBP are. That’s it. I personally think the whole controversy is entirely overblown. Mohalim just need to make sure they’re not sick and should clean their mouths before doing MBP. (I do, however, think that a Mohel who has herpes and an open wound/cold sore and is going to do MPB anyway has the Din of a Rodeph, which is not at all a radical opinion. I think everyone agrees that someone with herpes and a cold sore shouldn’t do MPB and puts the baby in tremendous danger for no reason.)
Itche: Only in the sense that there is a Tzad to not Pasken like other Rishonim who are brought down by all of the major recent Poskim just because they are not majority opinions.
Wow yitchokm, a personal attack and an attack on a whole group of Frum Jews was not necessary and is not appreciated. Someone asked questions and I explained why some people have an issue with the current situation and their logic. Face it, you have no idea what I hold on Metzitzah B’peh (nor is what I hold relevant here, seeing as I have no right to even have an opinion on this issue), yet you use my explanation of a viewpoint to attack me, my Yiddishkeit, the Yiddishkeit of someone not involved in this thread at all, and the Yiddishkeit of tens of thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands?) of Frum Jews.
This thread honestly makes me sad beyond belief. I feel like it just ruined my Pesach.
Stuck: It depends what you mean by Mesorah. Halachah states that suction must be applied. It was done in the most expedient way for a long time. Now we have an equally-expedient safer method. If you assume that Mesorah includes the way they did it then it’s very much not unnecessary. But if you assume that the way it was done is only because that was the most expedient method for a long time, then there definitely is room to call it unnecessary.
Stuck: I don’t understand. When do doctors perform something “unnecessary” (the word is in quotes for a reason; I know that there is a very good reason to say it’s necessary) that bears even a tiny risk? If they did, they would get sued and lose their medical license.
Itche: Just because in general we don’t necessarily Pasken like the Me’iri doesn’t mean that we can ignore him even when a tremendous number of Achronim brings him down.
Stuck: If the answer to that question was never then this controversy wouldn’t exist. Once is too many times. But yes, if Mohalim just knew to not do a Bris whenever they have a cold sore then whether or not they have herpes wouldn’t matter and there would be far fewer issues with M’tzitza B’peh.
Stuck: Even according to the Shittos that say you have to get drunk, they qualify it and mention that if you will come to Kalus Rosh then you shouldn’t get drunk and Yatza S’charo B’hefseido.
I have a question for you: So many people nowadays are so Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says. They are Choshesh for a Da’as Yachid in the Achronim and consider people who don’t follow the M”B’s Eitzos Tovos as not being Medakdek in Mitzvos. So why are people so quick to dismiss the M”B here and say that the other Derech of P’sak is just as legitimate?
Magen Avraham (quotes the Maharil I believe about the Gematriya), Mishnah Brurah, Aruch Hashulchan, Pri Megadim, Pri Chadash, Chayei Adam, The Vilna Ga’on doesn’t Pasken but what he mentions in the Siman is a Tziyun to two Gemaras that say how terrible being drunk is, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, (many of these are quoting the Me’iri that if you know that you will have Kalus Rosh it’s better not to get drunk), off the top of my head.
Stuck: Exactly what it sounds like. Follow all the Halachos mentioned in the Siman and be very careful because people have a very strong Yetzer Harah for women.
Stuck: The Shulchan Aruch does not say that “no amount of precautions is too many”. I’m not claiming there’s anything wrong with this Takanah in Gateshead. I don’t know the city at all so I can’t say anything, positive or negative, about it. I’m just saying why some people are skeptical whenever they hear about the new “Chumra” or “Geder” put up, ostensibly to keep us away from Arayos. Making sure people aren’t Over on Arayos is a necessity. Other things that some people do to claim to avoid being Over on Arayos is too far and leads to many things, sometimes them being Over the very Issurim they are trying so hard to prevent.
2scents: I don’t know the specifics of any case, but how often do doctors, parents, etc. have open woulds that are touching the baby’s open wounds?
PBA: The majority of Poskim post-SH”A try to counter-read the idea or Pasken against it outright, presumably because it’s inconceivable that Chazal want us all to get blind drunk once a year.
That’s true. Girls were allowed to get food in the cafateria which was near the gym where the guys were. They weren’t allowed in the gym though. Guys were allowed nowhere near the girls party.
Stuck: That is because he has a Chiddush about Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor and Mesorah (I don’t remember exactly what he holds, but it’s not because it’s an Arayos issue.) And you can’t draw a Kal V’chomer like that. Chillul Shabbos is worse than mixed pews (if everyone’s dressed properly, etc.) and we don’t say that that is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
MorahRuach: That’s very misleading. The Purim Chagigah was never mixed. They were always in separate buildings a block away from each other and security guards wouldn’t let boys into the girls building and vice versa.
I have heard like you. I have heard that there are dangers if she makes the wrong friends but that there is definitely a very good group of Yeshivish/Bais Yaakov girls there, who, if she is friends with them, it will not drag her down and she can even grow there.
Stuck: That Sevara makes sense and is nice to say, but it’s not true. We hold Abizraihu of Giluy Arayos is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Doing something inappropriate isn’t Abizraihu. I don’t think even Hirhurei Aveirah are Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
Stuck: And 1+1=2. Looking provocative isn’t an Issur of Giluy Arayos and isn’t Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
Bar Bay Rav: I understand that mixing boys and girls can lead to problems. The question is whether under these circumstances the potential problems are a legitimate or negligible risk. I can’t even begin to claim that I know enough to have an opinion on that.
PBA: I think you’re wrong on that conclusion. Most people pick it up at some point in life, but where would a baby get it from? It’s dangerous for a baby. Not so much for an adult.
PBA: Yes, I meant Mohel. If the doctor has an open herpes sore, there is something like an 90+% chance that he will transmit it to the baby. And babies almost never die by circumcision nowadays.
Gr8 Masmid: While I in no way endorse that post, which I think (hope) was facetious, we have a list of Aveiros that are Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Lifnei Iver isn’t one of them.
Bar Bay Rav: Some people think that when you extend “holiness” too far (and no one here is actually qualified to judge what constitutes “too far”) then you no longer have holiness.
PBA: Nowadays, a Bris itself carries very little risk. Metzitzah B’peh either carries little risk (if the Mohel sterilizes his mouth and is disease-free) or a tremendous risk. The issue is whether the risk of that tremendous risk occurring is worth mandating that a sterile tube always be used.
Chacham: I noticed that. Were you trying to point out the same thing Shticky just did?
PBA: It’s oaky. He’s Machmir to give a quarter which is a fifth of the final total. 😉
You mean a fifth which is a quarter?
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Stuck: I don’t know where you’re from, but I’ve been in some pretty right-wing communities and spoken to some pretty right-wing people who say that their communities have no problem with holding hands. This could be an NY vs OOT difference though, as I think those I spoke to who didn’t have a problem with it were all not from New York.
2scents: You miss his point then. His point is that there is no holiness in trying to push one’s own personal “holiness” on others.
Loyal Jew: Saying thank you is Chukas Hagoyim? Care to explain?
Think first: I would say technically no, but in reality yes. Non-socially acceptable public displays of affection (because a public display of affection is defined by what that society accepts) are not permitted. Thus, a couple probably can’t hold hands in Me’ah Shearim or Williamsburg, but in other places no one would bat an eyelash at it. So at a wedding, where everyone is there by the Chassan and Kallah’s invitation, depending on the community, it’s probably not unheard of that they will hold hands or dance together a little. At the vast majority of weddings though, it is probably very much expected that other married couples not dance together.
Cheftze: And why do you avoid it? Personal thing you want to do or do you have a Halachic backing for it?
This might be the saddest Minhag I have ever heard of. Goodbye “Kol Diphcin Yeisi V’yeichol”.
Toi: Right. I was talking L’Maskana, not how we got there. At the end of the day a large thing doesn’t work and a small thing does. And it’s because we assume he’s not Makpid on her spending a small amount.
If Wolf is going to Hell then it’s definitely a place worth being in.
YYTZ: While the idea may be able to be retroactively sourced in Judaism, it is very much much more of a Christian idea than a Jewish one. And, I can’t confirm this but I have been told by a very reliable source, it has strong roots in Sabbateanism as well.
Cheftze: What does “non-Jewish food” mean and why would you avoid it for Pesach?
The clear implication is that it does, which is why I laughed.
Cheftze: I clearly said it depends on the dancing. What would the Issur be? If it’s a place where it’s not socially acceptable then it’s an issue (the same as holding hands). A place where it is shouldn’t have an inherent Issur.
Blackhat: I actually laughed out loud in a line in there. It said to say the Parshas Han’si’im for 40 days straight then had a Yehi Ratzon with the line, “I have now done my Hishtadlus, now it’s time for You to do as You promised”, or something along those lines.
Cheftze: It would obviously depend on what type of dancing it is and it probably also depends on what’s acceptable in the community (and since the wedding is by their invitation, “community” in this case is probably usually defined the by Chassan, Kallah, and their families anyway). But there’s no inherent Issur.
ZeesKite: That’s still subjective. Lipa isn’t ashamed to perform in front of Gedolim, but I’m sure you’d be offended/uncomfortable by his music. The Chassan and Kallah dancing together. Interesting. I can’t see an Issur in that, though I definitely see why it would make people uncomfortable. But the day is about them, not you. Let them have their Simcha and just sit down or talk to friends for a few minutes while you’re uncomfortable.
While I am no fan of Breslov, you have to understand the meaning before you burn it. And you have to understand what is Apikorsus and what isn’t. Just because you feel like something is Apikorsus doesn’t mean that if you’re wrong you weren’t just Over the tremendous Aveirah of Mechikas HaShem. (I’m not saying anything about this case in particular, just pointing out that rash actions and “Kana’us”, even L’sheim Shamayim, should not be done unless you know all of the pertinent information first.)