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kfb: That is a good response, at which point the argument ends because his response is, “We clearly have different views of the purpose of marriage.”
And guys, chill. I’m not pro this decision at all. I was just showing 147 why a religious argument doesn’t work in an irreligious context.
And, HaKatan, you are reading too much into it. We are not obligated to protest whenever the Goyim do something Assur. They aren’t forcing anyone to be gay. All they are doing is allowing them marriage benefits. Yes, the Gemara doesn’t like that. But it’s not our obligation to inform them of that. We don’t like the decision but if that’s what democracy wants then it’s what it wants.
Health: I thought the most recent polls said the majority of Americans are against DOMA.
ROB: I don’t disagree with you about Rav Sherman. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy here. I think that Rav Sherman went well outside his bounds here and there is a reason he hasn’t received much support from the Gedolei HaPoskim on this. I disagree with you about R’ Goren. The logic used is not inherently invalid. If the Beis Din is Passul, then it’s Passul. And if Rav Goren had gone around for backing from the major Poskim (who were on a much, much higher level than he) he wouldn’t have had any problems. If he had had R’ Shlomo Zalman’s, R’ Moshe’s, R’ Elyashiv’s, etc. backing, even one of them, this would have been a near-non issue. He would have been attacked, but he could have supported himself. He went unilaterally against all of the big guns. And unilateral attempts by random Talmidei Chachamim to make sweeping Halachic policy changes without the backing of the Gedolim, have, historically not ended well for the person attempting them. He was wrong in considering himself on that level. Just as Rav Sherman was wrong in trying to invalidate R’ Druckman.
147: And what do you say back when the politician says, “That’s nice for you, but I don’t beliebe in God”?
It’s not so difficult, really. All it takes is keeping an eye on the news, reading history books, and having a decent retention rate.
I think (hope?) that zahavasdad’s story here was a joke.
I used to Daven very quickly. Someone once complained about it to a Rabbi of mine. His response was, “If only everyone would Daven like him. He finishes Davening quickly then immediately opens a Sefer as he steps out of Sh’moneh Esrei”. If you can’t concentrate on Davening, use those empty moments in Shul to learn. It will help you concentrate on Davening more too.
Nitpicker: Do we know he was actually still Frum? The way I heard it, it was a Machlokes between the pro-Goren and anti-Goren crowds as to what actually happened to him. Some say he was Frum and living in B’nei B’rak. Others say he was Chozer L’suro in Poland. Does anyone have any proof either way?
Honestly, I think you couldn’t have responded to today’s decisions any better than the OU did. It was a perfect statement.
Git: The Rama in Hilchos Shabbos defines a Choleh She’ein Bo Sakanah as someone who is ill enough that they cannot continue daily activity and have to lie down. I see no reason why a Choleh She’ein Bo Sakanah would be defined differently here.
rob: If you can’t see that these cases are identical (if you disallow R’ Sherman’s type of position then you can’t support R’ Goren’s) then you are clearly not being honest with yourself here.
DY: Fair enough. I read the first few sentences of the third paragraph wrong. Oops.
ROB: I agree it’s very Chutzpadik. That doesn’t change the fact that if he’s right, he’s right. Just like we would invalidate everything done by the JTS Beis Din, he’s saying the same here. (Oh, and just for consistency’s sake, who did you side with in the Rav Goren controversy?)
The Minhag in Yerushalayim would seem to indicate that no but it really all depends on the Minhag.
I’m not commenting on the whole situation, but I just want to point out that according to this analogy the Chareidim (Cindy) are saying that they don’t care if everyone else starves so long as they barely have enough to live on. That’s not a good argument to make.
ROB: Of course it’s logical. If the Beis Din is Passul then it’s Passul. I don’t see your point. You can argue that of course the Beis Din wasn’t Passul (which I would be very willing to argue) but the argument makes sense. Just because you don’t like the conclusion doesn’t make it a bad argument.
Git: I don’t understand what you’re trying to do. Talk within Halachah. The Ashkenazic Minhag, as codified in Halachah, is to not have rice on Pesach. There are Halachos about when you’re allowed to eat on one of these fast days. Look them up. Actually, look up whether or not you have to fast these at all first. You might be surprised when you start learning.
HaKatan: I don’t know if it’s on any of the websites nor am I so proficient at using them. I cited you the T’shuvah (OC 6:41 and 42). Maybe someone else can post it or you can get a chance to look at it when you’re somewhere that has a copy available. I’m sure a local Shul or Beis Midrash has one.
rationalfrummie: Actually, I don’t have a Yechave Daat and my bookshelf feels incredibly lacking for it. But of course I have a Yabiya Omer. It sits proudly next to my Igros Moshe and Tzitz Eliezer for the T’shuvos that I consult from the previous generation. One cannot consider themselves knowledgeable on any contemporary topic without seeing those three. (I’m still looking for a good price on a Minchas Shlomo).
I saw almost all of these in high school too. The later ones looked new. Apparently someone added on to the classic list.
RD: Apikorsus is Avodah Zarah. Their misrepresentation of the Halachic process is Apikorsus.
Git: A lot of people don’t fast for a lot of reasons. But that’s separate. The Halachah is that someone who has to lie down because of the fast can eat. That is the Halachah.
HaKatan: His other writings? I’m not calling anyone a Zionist or not a Zionist. I am telling you to read the T’shuvah and, based on your stance above (which you say in the name of the Chazon Ish) call R’ Ovadiah an Apikores. Either that or actually discuss the T’shuvah and explain why it doesn’t violate what you set above.
Git Meshige: Choleh here means even a Choleh She’ein Bo Sakanah, which the Rama defines as having to lie down. It is a very Meikel fast for those who need it to be, and your emotional argument doesn’t change the Halachah.
Ben: Why doesn’t that make sense? I’d assume that that far back it would be pretty easy for everyone to be descended from just one or two people.
Ben: I think R’ Soloveitchik also disagreed with you. I feel like it’s in either Nefesh HaRav or Divrei HaRav.
Nechomah: New York is give or take a 17-hour fast (closer to 18 if you trusted the website that likes to invent its new Halachos) and there were at least 6 hours left when this post went up.
Ben: Not quite. Someone not keeping Shabbos 3 days after they convert is a pretty good Umd’na D’muchach that they weren’t sincere. It’s like the “Ger” I knew who celebrated his conversion by going with his friends to Chipotle. That’s not Kaballas Ol Mitzvos.
HaKatan: I’m still waiting for your formal statement decrying R’ Ovadia as an Apikores according to you and the Chazon Ish.
PBA: I think you should learn a little more about R’ Linzer. If anyone at YCT is Frum, it’s him.
RD: Ethan Tucker is not a “Rabbi”. His distortions of Halachah and the Halachic process would make the JTS Beis Din proud. He knows a lot and sadly uses that knowledge for subversive reasons. If you want to learn from a “Modern” Halachic genius, go join R’ Schachter’s Shiur. How can you learn in a place that you would refuse to Daven in? The lack of understanding of basic things astounds me. Would you learn in a Church? So why do you learn in that Beis Avodah Zarah?
Nechomah: I know you’re in Israel, but in New York there’s still 5 hours left (and more the farther south and west you go from there).
Gadfly: Yes, but it was optional, not obligatory. Also, some things just don’t make sense before Matan Torah. Since we didn’t exist as a nation before Matan Torah, it doesn’t make sense to exclude others from the not-yet-existent nation. Thus, the concept of “intermarriage”, by definition, could not exist before Matan Torah.
gadfly: It was before Matan Torah.
Crisis: Take your Documentarianism somewhere else.
JFH: AKA Pella is a group.
HaKatan and co: Look up SHU”T Yabiya Omer OC 6:41 and 42. Then either call R’ Ovadia out for being an Apikores in much stronger terms than anyone from the RCA ever did or admit that those who celebrate Yom Ha’atzma’ut have what to rely on. Until you do either of those things, stop talking.
I’m not really involved in this thread because I’m not at all holding in this discussion, but I would just like to point out one thing: There is a massive difference between a bad system and a system with morons in bad places. I don’t think the Yeshivish world as a whole has anything against working people. I think that some people are morons and think this and unfortunately some of those morons are in teaching/administrative positions. If the Yeshivish world has one failing in this area, it is its unwillingness to admit that these morons exist and to remove them when necessary.
DaMoshe: Hadar is Conservative in everything but name. They count women for a Minyan there. It is very sad that Ethan Tucker had the potential to be a Gaon in Torah but instead decided to use his knowledge to create his own faction of Judaism.
yekke2: People should be aware before listening to the 4th track of that CD that they use drums in it (or so I was told).
Cherrybim: The separate toothbrush is presumably to remove the Minchas Yitzchak’s Uvda D’chol issue, not a Hachanah issue (though I’d have to see the T’shuvah inside to be sure).
Robertz: I have no idea what on Earth you are trying to prove. The Poskim discuss issues. Some hold one way; some hold another. All of a sudden holding like certain opinions that you, in your infinite wisdom, feel are cop-outs means… what, exactly? What is your point? That you can call something a cop-out and that you think you know better than Halachah and the Poskim? You’re no better than the left-wingers who think they know better than Halachah too. Go hang out with them. Making fun of legitimate Halachic opinions is being Malig Al Divrei Chachamim and Apikorsus.
Ben Levi: Going too far means refusing to acknowledge that there can be Talmidim at YCT who are seriously interested in learning and that some of the teachers could be Talmidei Chachamim.
mz: Dov Linzer, for one, is an Ilui and a Gaon. I can’t speak about his Hashkafos at all, but his knowledge of Shas and Poskim is tremendous.
Ben Levi: By going too far you actually hurt the proper (and necessary) arguments against YCT. Yes, there are people associated with YCT who are massive Talmidei Chachamim and who can still definitely fall within the acceptable parameters of Orthodox beliefs. Acknowledging that fact in no way changes the fact that the institution as a whole and several of its goals are entirely antithetical to Torah Judaism.
I once heard a great quote from a barely Frum YU guy: “YU is where you go if you want to go to college and stay Frum”. Unless you are actually in Yeshivah half a day or plan on going to college together with a very dedicated group of close friends, it is very difficult to stay Frum in a secular college. But so long as one of those two conditions are met, it can be done.
Robertz, you’re a moron. Why do you think your logic is better than Halachah as well? It’s exactly what you’re accusing others of doing.
Pou_Bear: I would go with the Chevra a capella cd. They’re all Carlebach songs, most of them slow. You might also be interested in Kol Zimra (singing Abie Rotenberg) and Lev Tahor 1 and 3.
The whole trial is ridiculous. It’s only to placate a massive mob. There is no grounds for a trial at all here. The fact that he was arrested was a disgrace to the justice system.
Seek emes: I don’t know if it’s actually Apikorsus or not, but there is something incredibly, incredibly wrong if you have the same reason for putting on Tefillin and never eating cherries.
RD: Show me where R’ Soloveitchik was Mattir. Becaue I know R’ Schachter says it’s an Issur D’oraisa.
FNC: I still think that would pose issues of M’mareiach and Uvda D’chol. Just use mouthwash for 1 day.
I cannot fathom permitting ordinary toothpaste. It’s M’mareiach. Then again, I think that Shabbos toothpaste is also M’mareiach. And Shabbos toothpaste does not remove the P’sikas Neima or Uvda D’chol issues (P’sikas Neima is Pashtus no longer an issue with modern toothbrushes though). See the Minchas Yitzchak’s T’shuvah on this.
HaLeiVi: Of course. Kullam B’avak Lashon Hara. But the Chafetz Chaim’s interpretation of this Halachah is against the vast majority of Rishonim. Then again, being Machmir in these Inyanim is never such a bad thing…
DY: (Or their husbands are Yotzei with them if the husbands come home from work late.) That’s fine. It’s a weird application of Ishto K’gufo. That has nothing to do with not going outside.