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DY
I will read the Teshuva more carefully but does R’ Moshe say life begins at conception?
This isnt nipicking, abortion isnt relevaent to the discussion at hand (like I explained at length above). You brought it up, I pointed out why aside from not being relevant your flaed tzushtel isnt even a tzushtel and you complain that I’m nitpicking
I second Sam2’s statment
DY
Don’t need to be a lamdan. The “medical establishment” does not view life as beginning at conception, thus abortion isn’t killing babies.
Incidently, we dont view life as beginning at conception either. Though that doesnt make it automatically muttar
Dy
Killing babies? Thats the Catholic view. We believe “Ubar yerech Imo” though obviously we don’t allow for abortion on demand.
I gave you a detailed synopsis of how we got to where we are today regarding “old people” and the best you cna reply is “come on be reasonable”
After thinking of m earlier response, I have a question for you (and anybody else who would like to take a satb at it.
The technology exists today to keep blood circulating in a body with no heart beat, we can ventilate a body that cannot breathe.
Putting aside the Torah for a second (not literally chas veshalam, and as a frum yid, I hope you cant completely put it aside since hopefully it has affected your worldview) but I mean is assuming you say that a ethical decision that is not based on Torah is not automatically evil, which I beleive you said earlier.
Should we prolong every (assuming no suffering) life indefinitely by circulating their blood with “thumpers” and Ventilating them with a ventilator?
I assume you reject brain-death, so even if circulation isnt the best these patients would “live” i.e. “breathe” and have a “heart beat”for years to come.
I have follow up questions bu I don’t want to get lost.
(and at all times keep in the back of your mind, that this discussion isnt really about what the right thing to do is or the Torah thing to do, but rather is it evil to come to the conclusion that the medical establishment has)
2scents
“since there usually is enough resources to treat both.”
“that is not true. everything IS tied to money, money buys more beds and more staff.”
I dont really understand what you are saying. Are you saying that there is enough money? If so for how long? Are you saying that there is no doctor shortage?
“No doctor is faced with the decision of treating one patient over the other one.”
Thats not quite true, hospitals frequently go on “diversion” sending patients elsehwere due to lack of capacity. You are in the healthcare filed, do you really not know this?
At any rate, this discussion isnt really about individual doctors but about the “medical establishment”
“There are a lot of good people in health care, but some are lazy and uncaring.”
Agreed!
Gamnait
It depends on lots of variables. I’m not sure of the specifics in your (hypothetical?) question. So I’ll share a few thoughts with you.
First and foremost, none of this is what I would say, what I would do etc… I yield to the Torah and it doesnt matter what I think. That is not at all what I have been addressing.
All I have been saying is that the approach taken by the “medical establishment” even if wrong is not coming from a “dark and evil” place. So regardless of what I would say to her, her views are not NECESSARILY coming from a “dark and evil” place.
She may be wrong, but she isnt necessarily evil. (of course there amy be an evil individual here and there).
That said. I dont want to avoid answering your question, but without the specifics, I will comment on your comment on the matter:
” I used to volunteer in the hospital, going around the geriatric ward. There were patients who would sit there with untouched meal trays
because they were unable to feed themselves.”
Unable because they were weak? demented? no appetite? unable to swallow? unable to lift food?
” many of them did not have the time to feed all of their patients before the trays were collected again.”
Whoever said I was wrong regarding lack of resources please read this testimony.
” I did encounter some nurses who did not care about their patients at all. I once alerted a nurse that something was wrong with a patient, and she just laughed me off and stayed at her station.”
Thats terrible, she should be fired
2scents
“since there usually is enough resources to treat both.”
No there absolutly is not. Resources are not limited to $$$. It includes, beds, manpower etc….
Dy
Great question. I don’t think they are related.
The trend towards “less aggressive life saving measures” actually is an interesting one. A century ago none of this was relevent, there where no ventilators, ICU’s, Dialysis etc… Even CPR isnt much older than 50 years old. These advances were all made in a time when medical decisions were made soleley by doctors. The Doctor didnt ask about “code status” or DNI, he or she (by far usually he) would decide if in his opinion the patient would benefit. Even 30 years ago this was a case. The average age in ICU patients has gone up not down over this time! (while life expectancy has increased slightly over this time, its not enough to account for the above). What changed was an increased emphasis on “autonomy” letting patients decide for themselves.
Consider CPR, it was originally developed in the 50’s and is literally a
God-send for those dying due to cardiac arrest. A patient’s heart stops they are now dying, by restarting their heart they can keep on living. With time though it began to be expanded to other patients. Now most times CPR is used it is used for a dying patient whose heart stops because he is dying, by restarting his heart he can keep on dying.
Similarily for ventilators, they wherent originally put in with plan to remain there until the patient succumbed to whatever it was that was killing them. When Dialysis was first made available there was an actual commitee that decided who would benefit from it. (there was a fascinating piece in Life magazine in 1962 about this comitee)
With time as these technologies became more ubiquitous they began to be more universally applied. That coupled with patients and thier familes being offered “everything done” the ages in ICU went up, chrnic vent units where opened and along with it medical expenses went up and up.
There is no secret in that last stament it is well known,non-disputed and been extensively written about over the past 2 decades. The problem is how to reign in costs. Insurance companies would often deny coverage, Surely you remeber the discussion over OBamacare which was partly related to this very issue.
Syag earleir had mentioned diverting funding from elswhere, he suggested libraries, I’m not saying I disagree, but then what? Roads/infrastructure? the army? The problem is as things stand and with all the (expensive) medical advances B”H being made, costs are going up an up.
The tend towards “less aggressive measures” is a more recent one. It isnt quite as old as abortion. It is partly based on the above, in conjuction with the very real suffering that these patients endure.
To make things more complicated, the technology exists to keep people “alive” forever. There are Thumpers, which are essentially machines that do CPR available in many hospitals. We could simply hook up patients with no heart beat to thumpers, ventilate them dialyse them as needed, and keep everybody alive forever. This isnt offered to patients so this discussion doesnt come up. Yet. The way things were headed it was only a matter of time until that had become mainstream.
Would this have been appropriate ? I’m not usre
Feasible? Absolutely not!
What would the Torah say about this? I dont know as stated sevweral times, I’m no posek
Are those who think this would not be a good use of resources, comng from a “dark evil” place? Absolutely not!
I am not as familiar with changing attitudes towards abortion, it may be due to them becoming easier/safer, or perhaps as part of the “revolution” in that regard that is said to have begun in the 60’s. But I dont think it is related to the issues I’ve outlined above
DY
Are you saying if it is not based on Torah it is automatically corrupt?
Incidentally, there are rare cases where the rolls are reversed.
For example, I know of a case where a patient was dying of cancer and the family wanted to prolong his life, as a son was on his way from Israel. The patient’s respiratory status deteriorated to the point that he required a ventilator. The Doctor’s were eager to intubate to prolong life for a few more days, but the Family’s Rav advised against it, since it would not really change the overall prognosis and once intubated they would be “Stuck” since it would be problematic to remove the ventilator.
The Ethicst was flabbergasted, since a key yesod of modern medicla ethics holds withholding and withdrawing are the same. He could not understand if the Rav was willing to withold treatment why not innitiate it, allow the son to come say goodbye and then withdraw. Obviously halacha views them differently.
(This wouldn’t change your over all view, just an interesting aside)
DY
So based on one friend’s stories you’ve labeled the entire medical establishment as having “overall values” that “are corrupt”
I thought we were friends, and I’m telling you the opposite, only Im not basing on “stories” but actual conversations with may many colleagues
The overall values are:
Beneficence (acting in best interest of patient)
Non-malfeficence Z(do no harm)
Autonomy (Patients get to decide)
Justice
Often these come into conflict (For example a patient who refuses life-saving treatment; Autonomy vs. Beneficence) And the medical establishemnt might resolve these conflicts in a way that is not based on Torah (though it often is the smae outcome)
I dont see how these are “corrupt values”
Would you care to elaborate the corrupt values your friend encountered?
Lake guy if you eat chazer half as often as many say lashon harah, that is a wonderful kabalah! Good luck with it
Feivel
“But clearly (I would hope) I was talking about the source of the influence which is the general and rapidly increasing moral decay of modern society and culture.”
This is relative, there are some ways we have made great strides in morality. For example the way we treat/protect minorities (including Frum Jews), the way people with mental illnesses are treated, greater care to avoid civilian deaths during war, avoiding war in general. I assume you agree that at least some of these exampels if not all are the opposite of “increasing moral decay of modern society and culture”
“If you can. “
I’m sorry I cant. I did change my view and no longer view you personally as being of an evil and dark place, you are just terribly misguided, and since it was your comment that got me riled up, and is shared by so many misinfomred, it will come up from time to time in the process of pointing out repeatedly how wrong your view is.
A good shabbos to you too
Syag
“why would I answer such a question? “
Because it is directly related to the subject at hand. The medical establishment that is so despised, has decided one way. The way that has been decided has been described as “evil”
I am not sure why. There are times where “value” has to be assigned to people. Halacha has one way of doing it (actually several ways, as there are different shitos)
The medical society has another.
I’ll bet you have still another (which hopefully would conform to some (though not all) poskim).
“How could I possibly make life changing decisions without the files in front of me? “
It is theoretical, you can make up their files
“When you choose between two patients, and you believe you are choosing appropriately, are you ever sorry that healthcare even demands it of you? “
Do you wish you have two ropes in the scenario that you are having a hard time answering?
Of course I feel sorry, as do most Doctors and nurses (though they may not always show it to you)
“”I can’t believe we are opening more libraries when there isn’t even enough money to keep the dying old people alive!””
its not just dying old people! Its young people too!
There is an orginazation in ISrael called Efrat which for $1,200 will prevent an abortion. Do you have a car? thats about 10 children. Does your shul/yeshiva have a dinner? Take all that money and prevent these murders. After all “Anyone who knows the REAL value of a life would let everything else go while they funded healthcare.” why would preventing abortions be different?
I do sometimes wish life was that simple.
DY
I addressed that above. The criticism was leveled by Feivel was against the “medical establishment” The medical establishment is responsible to deal with the “systemic problem”
As a complete aside. Please keep in the back of your mind that the resources aspect is only part of the story. another aspect is the desire to prevent suffering, and not prolong it. which again, even if wrong al pi Halacha (though it isnt in all cases, is also not coming from an “evil place”)
DY
these: “need the blood” and “drowning”?
I agree they cant be equated, since they ARE the EXACT cases I am discussing. Blood is occasionally in short supply (depending on the type) so it is less lemaseh. If you expand “drowning” to a patient in florid heart failure (Who in a very real way is drowning in his own body) then this is one of the EXACT cases I am referring to
Syag
I’m really sorry, I dont understand what you are getting at with the glasses scenario.
As Ive pointed out halacha also recognises “contribution to society” though in very different ways than society at large, which is to be expected. See sources above.
R’ Moshe has a teshuva in chelek zayin CM (i dont know off hand what chelek CM it is or the exact teshuva number) where he discusses priorities in health care. He says when faced with 2 people the chayeh olam is tended to. Though if already working on a chaye shah, he cant be abandoned for the chayeh olam.
This is clearly giving a “dying old man warrants less medical priority,” (Obviously not nearly in the same way as the medical establishment)
“but it sure as heck says a lot about where he stands in his values as they correspond with the Torah”
Careful! You could be talking about R’ Moshe.
care to answer the question I posed above
“How would you choose? whoever is closer? whover fell in first? Male? Definitely going to survive? whoever owns the rope? whoever will live longer? whoever will do more mitzvos? The bigger talmud chacham Whoever will allow you to save more drowning people in the future? Some other criteria?”
DY
“The fact that you can equate the terms in parentheses with the actual case shows how you’ve erred.”
Was that addressed to me?
Which parentheses? Do you mean this “getting people out of pre-war Europe”?
Please explain the difference between choosing whom to save given a limited number of visas vs a limited number of hospital beds/staff/money?
If you meant something else please ellaborate
DY
No YOU are talking about the “wholesale discounting…” The medical establishment is very much looking at the one rope or one unit of blood.
When a person has a loved one in the ICU, they have a single-minded focus just regarding the patient (which is how it should be) thye dont care about the 20 or so other patients that the physician has to tend to, many of whom may be sicker than their loved one. They certainly dont consider the multitudes of sick people in the general society.
Therfore they dont see the other person “drowning” or who “need the blood” The physician does see his 19 other patients some of who he can (in his view) be of more help to. OR who (again in his view) the help can be more meaningful to in one way or another.
This is the job of a physician to care for ALL his patients not just the one that you (I dont mean literally you) see. This IS the job of the medical establsihment to see ALL patients,not just the one that you (again not YOU) see
syag
“if you are UNABLE to provide intervention to someone because medical ethics dictate that you use your time or materials on someone else instead, you should never think that it is YOU who is deciding their fate.”
I don’t
“If I have one rope and two people are drowning I can only save one,”
that is precisely my point. But how do you choose? Halacha has one approach (though as mentioned it is far from clear as to what that is and perhaps not surprisingly a machlokes, how to decide.
How would you choose? whoever is closer? whover fell in first? Male? Definitely going to survive? whoever owns the rope? whoever will live longer? whoever will do more mitzvos? The bigger talmud chacham Whoever will allow you to save more drowning people in the future? Some other criteria
Many if not all of the above can be found in halachic literature
modern ethics would fit with some shitos, making it even harder to call evil.
But even if it didn’t doesnt make it inherintly evil.
“I should be wishing I could save both, but understanding that I must pick one, and believing that it was Hashem’s will and He will deal as needed.”
agreed, not sure why you thought I felt otherwise.
Joseph
“Arguing to save the lives of young people before older people, most certainly is inherently evil and based on dark and evil impulses.”
Take it easy, you are on very thin ice. There are shitas that way. there are shitas that put Talmid chacham before am haaretz (as mentioned earlier this came up in a very real way when getting people out of pre-war Europe), someone who will do mitzvas before someone who wont or wont do as many (eg men over women).
So please be very very careful how you phrase things.
It isnt “evil” if instead of being machshiv what we view as the ultimate contribution to society namely, Torah and mitzvos, they view “productivity” in other ways
Syag
I am not sure why you have a problem with “A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.”
I’m guesing it is along the line of what you said earlier “will be believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it”
This leads to an off topic classic hishtadlus question.
Should a person who has chest pain go to the hospital or stay home and have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
Should he go to a hospital with percuateus corinary intervention available or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
A hospital with PCI but not a CCU or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
etc etc etc
The “best hospital” available or any “doc in the box”
I am not mocking, these are classic hishtadlus questions and I dont know neccesarily where the line is drawn.
Most poskim I beleive would say to go to the best hospital available. If a hospital had a full ICU and the patient would not get as good care. I am guessing that most (all?) poskim would say to avoid that hospital even though that would be contradicting “” believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it””
These questions are well above my paygrade, and I am not qualified to address them.
Joseph
It is clear from your post that you have not read what I am saying.
“The comatose patient can die without the bed. How is that “a bed that can better serve somebody else”?
You are saying that the comatose patient’s life is less valuable than the non-comatose patient.”
i am not saying that, as I have repeatedly stressed. All I am saying is that it is not evil to say that.
There are times where we assign “value” to one life over another. The idea that all lives are equal is a cute idea and a nice one for people not invloved but does not fit reality.
Here are a few halchic determinats that perhaps you are not aware of.
needless to say this is far from halacha lemaseh, I am just providing you with sources so that you realize the problem I raise are real, and people arent automaticly “Evil” if they reach different conclusions than us.
BM 62a regarding one flask for two people “chayecha kodem” (though it is a machlokes)
The mishna in horias says a “man comes before a woman” and Kohen before levi before yisroel” “a yisroel before a mamzer” and a talmid chacham before all etc… Granted that is regarding tzedaka but some poskim use that for triage in halacha.
Poskim understand these halachas in different ways.
for example the Netziv in haemek sheilah understands the sugya in B”M to mean that chayeh olam trumps chayeh shah (even for two people) which could mean that the comatose patient who is “taking up a bed” in the ICU (assuming he is a chayeh shah, which is not hard to imagine) should in fact be transferred out to “better serve somebody else” who is a chayeh olam. there are other achronim who learn the sugya this way. So be very careful before you discard it as “modern Western thought corrupt your values away from Torah values.”
R’ Yakav Emden in YD says explicitly that a healthy young person comes before a sick old person.
Not all poskim learn this way, it is a very complicated sugya
And please please dont think I am paskening one way or another ch”v. I said this several times, but it is still somehow getting lost.
All I am saying is this: Triage is a complicated issue. There are not enough resources (staff, beds and yes money) to help everybody.
Halacha guides us in the correct decision, sometimes for people not versed in these issues, the halachas are surprising and there are often machlokisim involved like in all areas of halacha.
For people who come to conclusions that are different than halacha (not me for the umpteenth time) it isnt because they come from a dark evil place.
p.s. please dont get caught up on the specifics of the halachas above. In addition to it being a complicated sugya with literally life-death consequences, each case has subtle differences that can and will change the halacha. But the ideas behind the shitas above are at least theoretically in some cases applicable, at least according to those who hold those shitas.
I’d be happy to provide more mareh mekomos if youd like. Some of these are based on an article in Hakira, RJJ or I forget where i’ll try to dig it up if anybody is interested.
Syag
“If society puts value on materialism”
This isnt about materialsim. The money I refrence is not money that will be spent on a “halachic dinner” There is a certain amount of money dedicated to healthcare. That can be spent in limited number of ways.
Arguing that the money is better spent on young people, smart people, cancer research, or whatever as opposed to comatose people isnt materialistic. It may be wrong but it isnt inherently evil nor based on “Dark and evil places”
Keep in mind halacha does the same thing though we define “productive” veeeeeeeeery differntly than society at large. Many poskim hold, given limited resources Talmidei Chachamim go first. sadly this came up with visas to leave Europe in the late 30’s early 40’s. Other poskim have other ways of determining who goes first. But these decisions are very real. And that Society doesnt value talmidei Chachamim like we do, and instead gives preference to “productivity” in other ways, is not evil nor materialsitic.
“This nurse, many years ago, would have been regretful and pained to make such a decision.”
how do you know she wasnt pained? I dont know the specifics of your father’s condition and want to avoid specifics.
Also I’m sorry I didnt mention this earlier, but I’m sorry you had to go through that. Having loved ones in an ICU is never pleasant (and that nurse sounds like only made things worse.), and I hope he had a refuah sheleima, and if not may he be a meilitz yosher for you and your family. He is lucky to have had a caring son with him in the ICU, sadly many are not that lucky.
“Has money really altered the value of life as you say? Or has it just changed the need for the different decisions?”
the latter. Though it isnt just money. There is a staffing shortage a bed shortage. A comatose patient in an ICU is litteraly taking a bed that can go to somebody else. I am not saying “somebody else who needs it more” but without the Torah as a guide (and even in select cases with it) it is a bed that can better serve somebody else.
“It may be “right” in the medical world, but it is not “right” in Torah.”
Again, I have said that repeatedly. I am not saying giving blood to young instead of old is right,just that even if wrong it is not coming from a “dark evil” place.
“You say noone is killing anyone? Absolutely false. Nobody argues that people are being killed”
I didnt mean noone. Obviously there are exceptions, but those are exceptions and I am not referring to them.
Feivel
Thank you for that. IT explains a lot and I feel much better.
I also apologize if my tone was too harsh earlier. While I do know that the ideas you express “are not only incorrect, but they are the opposite of the truth, highly repugnant, and dangerous” it is limited to your ideas and not you personally. Thank you for your understanding
syag
“I agree with you that how you present things to goyim or secular Jews in the workplace will make a very big difference and will yield better results.”
With an attitude like Fievel’s (aside from it being 100% wrong) it is very hard, if not impossible to have a normal attitude towards people coming from “dark and evil” places.
“Regardless of the intent of the health care providers, and regardless of the way you present the facts, it is important to always remember the Torah view that we value every second of life and what we need to do to preserve it.”
This is not completly true, I hope these issues never arise, but if ch”v they do speak to a Rav competent in these matters.
“The Torah way is the right way”
I said so several times
“This new idea of killing off old people and feeling it is valid “
Nobody is killing anyone
“but where do you think this new way of thinking came from? This was NOT the norm years ago.”
It came from new developments allowing for a long time in any state. The advances in medicine have been amazing.
Regarding your father, I have no idea about the specifics in the case, and was not referring to it. I used it as a springboard for a far-fetched hypothetical case
“And if you are frum, then you need to also believe that if Hashem wants the other patient to live, blood will show up for him too. That KNOWLEDGE should fill your head with room for nothing more!”
I have read many of the Jewish MEdical ethics discussions on the subject. There are different ways to determine who gets it first. None say what you said.
” And where does “low” eminate from? ” (regarding money in nedicine)
In eminates from the new reality where people are living longer and longer. Costs are only going up, with more advancements and people living even longer. brace yourself… it is going to get worse much worse
“As an answer to your non question, I certainly would have given all my clothes, cars, food and home to keep my sisters or parents alive, even to sit near them while they lay comatose. Wouldn’t you?”
why only your sister? You can sell all your stuff today go to the nearest ICU and pay to keep someone alive. You can find a Jew or even a frum one. (With frum people it is less of an issue, since we b”H have a strong support system).
Keep in mind people are “drowning” every day. The comparison to two drowning individuals is more apt. The ICU at my local hospital (A large regional hospital) is full to capacity, The ER is backed up pateints are often diverted elsewhere.
DY
“I also wish to add my voice in protest to the way Feivel was addressed. He deserves much more respect than that, “
His ideas are wrong and backwards. It is one of the most untrue vile things i have read on this site. I toned down my language to have it approved
“and his words deserve more consideration as well.”
I have considered them. They are the furthest thing from the truth. It pains me that so many people in our community can be so misguided. It pains me to think of our chinuch system that can raise someone with such false views and to think they are “Torah based”
DY
that is evil. Though that is rarely if ever the case.
More often than not, the conflicts are raised either due to suffering of the patient, whether physical or psychological. OR by a “waste” of resources, which yes ends up pitting the value of one life vs another, though not in as dramatic a fashion as in my case, but for society as a whole in a very real way. Make no mistake about it. 30% of medicare costs are spent on the last year of life. That is a lot of money. We may feel that is money well spent. But it is not EVIL to feel if we spend that money elsewhere, say curing cancer, we as a society would be better off.
To be crystal clear, I am not making that argument, I am just saying that that isn’t evil.
These are very uncomfortable thoughts for most people, and probably never occur to people who fill their “heart and mind with the Torah leaving room for NOTHING ELSE.” (and needless to say we need people like that) But there is no shame in accepting that these issues are very real and very difficult, even with the Torah to guide us, let alone without ch”v.
DY
I never said I was never oiver an issur in this thread just that ” hypercriticizing him for being critical.” isn’t hypocritical since in one case it was warranted and not the other.
That said I accept your tochacha and will work on avoiding name calling in the future. Though it is very hard for me especially with some posters.
Kudos to you though, I think you disagreed with every comment I ever posted, and yet can recall few times where you resorted to name-calling (I think the last time was regarding the shiduch crises which I cant believe you buy into the “age gap”
JK)
syag
I am hesitant to get in a debate on this because in practice I dont disagree. I agree with every word that Joseph said (definitely a rarity.)
My only addition was to consider where they were coming from which makes it easier to interact, and more importantly get them to understand where we are coming from and thereby make it more likely for them to accommodate.
There is a lot of mistrust, in our community against the medical establishment, which is not helpful.
We can disagree with them vehemently and still understand where they are coming from.
the majority of Doctors and nurses dedicate themselves to their patients. And genuinely want to do what they feel is best. Again, this doesnt mean what they feel is best is the right thing, It often conflicts with our values. However I assure you it does not come from any darkness or evil.
Regarding your “very telling lesson,” I have never seen that. i have often seen the reverse, a person signs a DNR or doesnt want to be intubated, and a family member demands otherwise. (On more than one occasion a family member said this was to continue collecting social security checks)
You describe “garbage society has taught, that your life is only worth something if you are productive” I feel funny “arguing,” since i do not disagree, but even in our society it is often presented this way. Granted, we define “productive” differently than they do. But at almost Jewish Medical ethics shiur Ive heard, the MAIN reason for keeping people alive in any state is that Every moment is chance to do mitzvahs. You cant fault the medical establishment for not valuing that as we do. And more often than not in the cases that raise these issues the patient can no longer do mitzvas since he is comatose. Granted every moment of life is precious, but it is hard to explain why. (Of course we have a fallback – because the Torah says so, which is more than fine for me).
Health resources are limited. Rationing is inevitable. The only question is how rationing is to be determined: by finances? By the government? By insurance companies? by perceived usefulness? To us it is easy: by the Torah, but obviously this wont guide hospitals. Consider a situation where a person is on dialysis at a cost of $1,000 a day. For whatever reason insurance wont cover. The patient is in a coma not expected to wake up ever. With dialysis he can live in this state until a complication develops potentially years. Should the family sell their car to keep him in that state? Their house? their clothes? This is a very uncomfortable question, but it is a very real one and it is important to acknowledge that different conclusions are not inherently “evil”
I dont want to use your father and that tactless nurse as an example. But consider a comatose patient who a unit of blood will help live another day vs. a 20 year old accident victim who the unit could help live another 50 years. There is one unit who should get it? There is no shame in acknowledging that this is a hard question. The torah might guide us one way (as to what that is poskim struggle with this, it isnt easy). But for a non-Torah person that doesn’t make a different conclusion “evil”
DY
Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra
Newbee
“Not the those people who went are wrong per-se, “
I can live with that.
Feivel
i would like you to consider this
I have debeated all sorts of kooks on this site and in real life attributing such ranges of views from open orthodoxy to neturei karta on the Torah. I have never been so shaken as to the state of our chinuch sytem and that a person can have such a twisted view attributed to the Torah. This is a very sad day for me
Feivel
Just the opposite, by filling your mind with torah and nothing else you have little understanding of the real world. You have a childish black/white view of the world when in reality there is a lot of gray.
Your view is wrong and perverse and I would want nothing to do with it. Please dont profane the Torah by twisting it so grotesquely.
Wow Feivel that was backwards. Accusing people who dedciate their lives to helping others (not that this is the motivation of all Doctors but it is of many (at least partly) of being of “darkness and evil.” Your views are pretty dark and evil, and it saddens me to think of whatever experience you must have had to lead you to this perverse mischaracterization.
You say it comes from “From turning ones back to Hashem”
Now this may surprise you but most people working in hospitals dont know of Hashem, they cnat turn their back on something they never heard of
“It bothers them to see someone that is much like themselves suffering, so let them die instead. Then we don’t have to worry about our own suffering.”
Halcha takes this approach also in many cases. So youll agre that the idea itself isnt wrong (I hope), the only question that remains is when to apply the specifics.
DY
I dont follow, in the very post you cite, I mention Tochahcah is sometimes appropriate. My only critique is that in THIS case tochacha for a musar-ideal when you dont know the people involved or the level they are at is inappropriate.
Newbee
“No no no- you are cheating. I never referred to giving tochacha in my list. Thats not #4.”
I’m not sure what you mean. I know you never reffered to it, yet that is the main thing (only thing?) we disagree on namely: Is tochacha appropriate regarding mussar ideals when people are not on the level.
I have been saying this over and over.
Granted as DY points out, there were some posts where you indicate that your main concern was the “hypocricy” of this dinner. But that was not your inital post nor your only concern: “At first I thought it was a joke, but then I realized it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)- so then I said yea, I guess this makes sense.”
“#4 is… the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.”
Depending on their level, what is one person’s nivul is another’s tuesday. Keep in mind this event isnt a every day event. Like it says on their website “Thank you to our sponsors and patrons whose generosity enabled us to make this UNIQUE OPPURTUNITYy as inclusive as possible:”
Seems silly to describe this as nivul bershus hatorah (depending on their level)
DY
“Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.”
Thats silly. I dont think anybody here said criticizing is wrong. In fact a thread was started as an ofshoot of this to that affect.
The only question is whether criticism is appropriate in this case.
newbee
to be clear you are dead wrong on point 2 as Sam2 points out, I just see how you were led to your mistake.
Again I’m npot saying there is no level to strive towards to avoid this meal. I am questioning the Tochacha for those not on the level. (much like critiscing spending time on ywn instead of learning)
Now having explained precisely in your mistaken train of thought where I lose you, Here is mine For the 4th? 5th? time:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where Do I lose you.
I’ll even help you analyze each step:
1) I think we agree on this, I beleive you said so explicitly.
2) We deffinitly agree
3) Do you beleive everybody is at the same level? (Obviously not)
4) Do you know the level the people at the dinner are on? (Obviously not)
5) Do you think it is appropriate to give people mussar regarding a level they arent on? (Proably not?)
6) We arent disagreeing on this one.
7) Is the only conclusion I reach following the train of thought above.
With which point do you disagree?
Joseph
Thanks for the clarification
“the hospital staff can at times go further than just not treating a suffering patient and let him die. At times they will facilitate his death. Or not feed him. Or not treat him for common ailments readily remedied that will cause death if left unattended. All of this has been widely reported on over the past decade and longer.”
I agree with the FACTS as you state them. (part of) the problem is primarily one of attitude. IT is important to understand where the hospital is coming from, and while they may be wrong it is not generally coming from a bad place. Usually these disputes are easily resolved with open and honest communication and avoiding phrases like “facilitate his death.” Even if it may be true.
For example, you mention the idea of not feeding the patient. The fact as you state them is correct. However it is a matter of perspective. The general medical establishment as well as ethical societies, All major Religions and even various “branches” of Judaism, all view artificial feeding whether by Tube feeds via PEG/NG tube or TPN as “medicine” and not “food”. Orthodox Judaism is alone in viewing artificial nutrition as food. Obviously we couldnt care less what other religion or ethical societies have to say on the subject, but the hospital cares so they arent wrong for pushing to avoid these “life prolonging medicine” (what we consider a basic need) in a patient who is suffering. Keep in mind, halacha also allows withholding life-prolonging-medicines in such cases. By communicating with the hospital that we understand where they are coming from and that they have the best interest of the patient in mind, but to us artificial nutrition is a basic need, that (generally) cant be withheld.
Again, i ma not disagreeing with any fact youve stated, just the attitude. A little understanding (even if we vehemently disagree with them) goes a long way, and can generally ease a charged situation.
Newbee
I just had another thought you are missing a step someplace just because something is a torah value doesn’t mean if someone doesn’t follow it he deserves criticism.
For example I assume you agree their is a level of learning torah every free second. That doesnt automatically mean anybody who spends anytime on ywn is automatically a batlan. It depends on their level, and without knowing the persin youd be wrong to criticize.
And along the lines of your number 3 above… dont get me started on calling “batalah world news” by the name “yeshiva world news”.
(That last line was a joke btw)
Newbee with pleasure!
1)I disagree slightly with 1 since by definition “extremely extremely exotic excessive, lavish and indulgent” is subjective but I still follow you.
2) is silly since “halachic” does not imply “related to Torah values” But I do see ow reosanble people can disagree, sos till with you.
3) I agree with, though see #1 and 2
4) Is where I lose you, since while the CONCEPT applies to every man, the practice is different. For some it is eating Meat ever, for some more than once a week etc… Without knowing the people involved how do you know what level they are on
Your turn….
newbee
In spite of asking where did I lose you twice, you still didnt answer. This isnt an abstract conversation about “the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong.” This is about a very specific event which you criticized very strongly. I oulined step by step why you are wrong. With which point do you disagree
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
?
“you just dont like me personally,”
I dont know you, I bet in real life you are a nice rational person.
“I did not criticize anyone specifically. I did nothing inappropriate.”
This is a non-sequitor. There are times where criticizing groups can be inapropriate
newbee
I too am glad we can agree. Though I find it troubling that we cant agree that there is a mitzvah of simcha on yom Tov.
“Im not sure what you mean”
I’ll repost it a third time:
“Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?”
Newbee
“They should video the shiur…”
Agreed!
Though there is simething to be said for expericing first hand. When learning chulin you cant compare a shiur or sichas chulin or even chulin illuminated to seeing a shechita.
Plus the food sounds good.
No need to be sorry. The question is Still there. Which step in the ones outlined did I lose you?
Newbee
why do you keep ignoring my questions?
nobody besides you said this was a dinner of kedusha vetahara. As for Talmud Torah, well I know you dont care much for that, but I’m sorry it was a dinner of Talmud Torah.
Out of curiosity if the dinner took place with a similar menu but without the “Halchic food” aspect of it what percentage of people do you guess would have gone? (Youve been guessing as to motivations throughout the post, so please dont now claim you dont want to guess)
I can speak for myself, though I haven’t yet gone partaking of one of these “mesora dinners” is on my “to-do-list” I don’t eat at fancy restaraunts generally, but this would be an exception. Dont downplay the talmud Troah I’d guess more than half were attracted by that aspect.
newbee
Your Rebbe wasted time on this?
Did he criticise them or encourage you to be above it? (yes there is a difference)
Also, if you dont mind my asking what level Rebbe are we dealing with? Elementary school? high School? Beis Medrash? etc
Also
Lesschumros
I’d be happy to be the source for Joseph’s statement. My only quibble is I’m not sure why suffering is in quotation marks. There is very real suffering that many elderly experience, and hospitals and halacha for that matter, sometimes “let the patient die rather than try to preserve his life.”
OBviously, the two are not always in agreement and this is where problems and mistrust arise.
But the suffering is very real, and shouldnt be minimized by quotation marks,even if you would come to a different conclusion than the hospital.
Joseph
Thanks though you misunderstood. This sint about MO per se this is about needless criticism about things that aren’t assur.
Of course if you think a group has wrong then the group should be criticized.
I dont think we are arguing, on the thread you posted on tochacha you seemed to be in agreement regarding tochacha for a mussar ideal. Did I misunderstand?
Newbee
“I am simply repeating the words of the gedolim word for word.”
Ok where did any gadol write the following ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules on yom kippur” Or this “MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”
Please dont call anything you say emes, when you twist the truth so much. At any rate, with your constant dodging of truth (regarding simchas yom tov, misrepresenting Gedolim, etc etc) I think youve lost track of what we are discussing.
Earlier I broke it down for you very simply, i’ll repost it here:
Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?
newbee
are you serious?
YOU were the one who said this is ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules” Not R’ Moshe nor R’ Yosef. They didnt feel the need to mention that. He was asked his opinion on the matter and he gave it. Nobody is saying if someone has asked you if you though it was ok for them to attedn this dinner it would be wrong to offer your opinion.
Your very example shows how wrong you are
Oh and comparing yourself to R’ Moshe and R’ Ovadiya ?
Really?
Even if they denigrate a group of people. (Which they did not) You still wouldnt have a right too
newbee
“I feel like a high school rebbe”
Thats so funny. I feel you are acting like a high school Rebbe too! The problem is I am not in high school and neither are the attendants at the dinner. What might be appropriate in one context is silly in another, and most of us become a bit more sophisticated after high school. Things arent always black and white. Just because there is a level in mesilas yesharim doesnt mean it is applicable to everybody
“you and everyone else, are not even addressing my point about the halachic dinner”
I have repeatedly addressed it but will address it again. In fact since you remind me of my high school Rebbe I will walk you through it slowly. Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?
DY
Lol that is indeed a horror story
newbee
that is not all you did.
You are either not aware that mesials Yesharim is by definition not miikar hadin
OR you are under the impression that it makes sense to hold people youve never met to lofty standards.
Either way you are being silly.
And yes you did deny a mitzvas aseh
when I said “”Just by eating cheesecake and baked ziti [on shavuos], and enjoying it you get schar!”
you replied “oy vey”
You said:
“Basically, you gave up on defending the main point, and started attacking me personally and about simchas yomtov- which has nothing to do with this. “
more silliness. YOU were the one who brought up yom tov: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it/page/2#post-570268
You do deserve attack regarding simchas yom tov since denying it is borderline kefira. There is a very real mitzva to have physical enjoyment on Yom tov. It worries me about our chinuch system that you have trouble with this very basic idea.
DY
I hope she/you corrected him, that is precisely the point of marking the limb before the patient gets to the OR
Joseph
Why is suffering in quotes? Believe it or not, there is actual suffering involved. (I’m not arguing with the gist of your comment)
Popa
Those ARE reaally scary
newbee
Do You really believe somebody who “has been working on his or her eating habit and reducing the gashmius in their lives would get disheartened by this halachic dinner”?
Also please dont call your silliness emes. Denying mitzvas simchas Yom Tov is not emes. It is faltsche frumkeit at best.