SHOCKING VIDEO: Rabbi Riskin, Chief Rabbi of Efrat, Praises ‘J’, Refers To Him As ‘Rabbi J’

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VIDEO BELOW: In a shocking video making its way around the Internet, the Chief Rabbi of Efrat, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, is seen praising “J”, and even referring to him as “Rabbi J”.

In the modern Orthodox community, Rabbi Riskin is more than a ‘rabbi’ but an icon, one who has set the path for many modern balei tshuva, who has set a path for aliyah and incorporating a life style which emulates his mentor, Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik zt”l.

While according to a growing number of followers Rabbi Riskin has adopted a controversial position on Christianity and perhaps other matters as well, including Israeli politics, this latest video will prove to be the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ according to many, and time will dictate the ramifications of this highly irregular documented statement of this highly respected rabbi’s views on “J”.

The video is currently posted on Jewish Israel, and the following are some excerpts of the 5 minute video:

Shalom to all. My name is Shlomo Riskin. I am the Chief rabbi of the City of Efrat…..I am an Orthodox Rabbi…and an Orthodox Rabbi who is very profoundly interested in religion in general, in Christianity, and especially in the persona of Jesus in particular….I was truly fascinated by the personality of Jesus, whom to myself I have always referred to as “Rabbi Jesus”….because I think he is indeed a “model Rabbi” in many counts…and he lived the life of a Jewish Rabbi in Israel in a very critical time in our history…..I have constantly come back to the study of his personality and his teachings which are very strongly rooted in Talmudic teachings…..”

THE FOLLOWING BIOGRAPHY IS FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Riskin was born on May 28, 1940 in Brooklyn, New York into a non-religious Jewish family. His legal given name is Steven; his Hebrew name is Shlomo.

Although his family was not religiously observant, he attended a local Orthodox yeshiva, the Yeshiva of Brooklyn, where he was influenced to adopt a more Orthodox lifestyle. He graduated from Yeshiva University in 1960, and became an ordained rabbi under the guidance of Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik.

In the early 1960’s Riskin was employed at Israel Center of Hillcrest Manor as the advisor to the Tallis and Tefillin Club, a group that was common in many synagogues in North America to foster observance among Jewish men of the ritual commandment of donning the prayer shawl (the tallit) and phylacteries (tefillin).

In 1963, Riskin received his Master’s degree in Jewish history, and he completed a Ph.D. from New York University’s Near Eastern Languages and Literature department in 1982. From 1963 until 1977, he lectured and served as an Associate Professor of Tanach and Talmud at Yeshiva University in New York City.

He was the founding rabbi of Lincoln Square Synagogue in New York City in 1964 and served in that position until 1983. During the 1960s and 1970s he followed became a leader of the movement to allow free, unfettered emigration for Soviet Jews and made several trips to visit and strengthen the Jewish communities in the USSR.

In 1983, Riskin immigrated to Efrat, Israel, with his family to become the city’s rabbi, a position he still retains. (He is often erroneously referred to as the Chief Rabbi of Efrat, but by Israeli law, only four cities have Chief Rabbis, and Efrat is not among them.)

There is a myth that most of his congregation from Lincoln Square followed him; in truth, only a few families did, and most of these were, in fact, relations of his and his wife, Victoria (Vicky). He also established a network of high schools, colleges, graduate programs, seminaries and rabbinical schools under the name Ohr Torah Stone Institutions with a total student enrollment numbering in the thousands.

Riskin is also the author of several books, including “Women and Jewish Divorce”, “The New Passover Hagadah”, the “Torah Lights” series, and “Around the Family Table”, as well as many scholarly articles. He also writes a weekly column on the Torah portion of the week, published in The Jerusalem Post and dozens of Anglo-Jewish newspapers around the world.

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM THE OHR TORAH STONE WEBSITE:

Internationally renowned educator, speaker and author Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin attained rabbinical ordination at Yeshiva University from his mentor, Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, and his Ph.D. from New York University.

His outstanding contributions to Israel and to world Jewry over the course of his career have made him one of the leading voices of today’s Modern Orthodox world. Rabbi Riskin is especially renowned for his innovative educational and social action programs, which are based upon his unique vision of an authentic Judaism sensitive to every human being and responsive to all universal concerns.

On the cornerstone of this philosophy, Rabbi Riskin founded and serves as Chancellor of Ohr Torah Stone Colleges and Graduate Programs, a network of groundbreaking institutions including a rabbinical and communal leadership college for men; a college for advanced Jewish studies; the first and only program in the world training women advocates for the rabbinical courts; a Legal Aid Center for agunot; a women’s “hesder” program enabling observant women to serve in the Israel Defense Forces; the first and only program enabling women with developmental disabilities to spend a year in Israel; and a program exposing secular Israelis to the beauty and relevance of their Jewish culture and heritage.

A popular speaker, Rabbi Riskin has also published five books, scores of articles and monographs on Judaism and contemporary issues, as well as a weekly column which is syndicated in newspapers worldwide. The Brooklyn-born rabbi also serves as the founding Chief Rabbi of Efrat, Israel, where he resides with his wife, Vicky and his extended family.

(YWN Desk – NYC)




139 COMMENTS

  1. From the excerpt, I don’t see what is so controversial. “J”, if he existed, was popular. That doesn’t mean he was the mashiach or anything, but it is a fact that he had and has many followers.

  2. this is not the first time he did this. a few months ago he said something on a Jerusalem Christian Embassy video and used language that people went crazy about.

    Rabbi Riskin ran to Arutz 7 and tried to “explain everything”

  3. What type of community is Efrat? Why haven’t the people in his shul shown him the door? Maybe they are all nebach brainwashed by this loon.

  4. Did any of you people who are criticizing him watch the video. Can you explain what he is saying that is wrong? All he is saying is the xtianity and Judaism both share the concept of a mashiach perfecting the world, but we Jews don’t believe the mashiach was “J”. This is not a disputable fact.

  5. Not sure what the big deal is. While one is certainly not used to hearing Rabbis discuss this topic, this video was clearly intended for a non-Jewish audience. It is fairly well accepted by historians that J was a Rabbi or teacher during him time and within the mainstream of Judaism. The departure from Judaism and the concept of J as the Messiah came not through J but through his disciples.

    While Im no great fan of Rabbi Riskin, its very easy to take something like this out of context and make a big deal about it for no reason.

  6. what a kofer in torah!!! vishem rishaim yirkov!!!! we should stage stage a hafganah at his house for kvod shamayim then we will see moshiach and he will be gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #1 It’s an exaggeration to say that he was popular. And I’m not sure what the term “ribbi” actually meant in his day. But I agree that there is nothing to be shocked about in R Riskin’s statement.

    Unfortunately, the only basis we have on which to form any kind of picture of who Yoshke was is the New Testament, which is a very unreliable source. To get any kind of information from that source we have to read between the lines, and that is inherently a subjective exercise. But given that caution, my reading is that he was something like a R Shlomo Carlebach-type figure, rather than a teacher of Torah, which is what calling him “rabbi” implies. Like R Shlomo, he seems to have occupied himself teaching amei ho’oretz, and inspiring them to come closer to the RBSO. These were people who not only weren’t shayach to serious learning, but they weren’t even shayach to assess who was a talmid chochom and who wasn’t. So their view of their rebbe as a yodea sefer is not very reliable.

    Still, he clearly did have at least some learning. More importantly, he seems to have been 100% shomer mitzvos, and there is no basis for calling him a rosho or for criticizing R Riskin’s view of him.

  8. #9, actually, the departure from Judaism came not through his disciples, but through people who never saw him, and over the strenuous objection of his actual disciples. His actual disciples did believe he was the Moshiach, but Chazal do not seem to have had any problem with them, or to have regarded them as anything less than kosher yidden. The problem wasn’t in his teachings, or in how his disciples understood them, but in their willingness to admit new members to their chevra who had very different ideas, and who quickly took it over and changed it into something neither Yoshke nor his disciples would recognise.

  9. jlq3d3 [1 & 7)
    Do you also think J was a “model Rabbi”?
    Are you also “interested in Christianity”?
    Are you also “fasinated with J”?
    Do you think J “lived a life of a model Rabbi in Israel at a crucial time”?

    Do you realize that that site is dedicated to christian-Jewish relations in the land of Israel??????

  10. I do believe there is an extensive discussion of Yoshka in the Rambam, Hilchos Melochim. If there are any talmidei chochomim reading this like RoshYeshiva, I would love to hear what they have to say. I do remember that the full discussion is there. There may be other sources in the Gemora too.

  11. MDshweks, I’m not an expert on Christian history, so I don’t know if he was a model Rabbi. I don’t see what is controversial if he were. I also don’t see what is wrong with being interested in Christianity. I am smart enough to know there is a difference between being interested in the largest world religion and believing in it’s hashkafa.

  12. why doesnt he just come out of the closet and say what he really wants to say that he’s a firm beleiver in yeshua and messiah and the rest of the pack of lies that jews for j run around preaching

  13. BS”D

    R’ Riskin has been a daas yochid before and this does not surprise me.

    What impact it has – I am not sure. Those of us who don’t follow his derech don’t need something like this to convince us that his way is not for us. I also do not know what role he has outside of his (not as big as we think) community in Efrat and a few like minded American olim/commuters in other parts of EY.

    Those who do are the ones who need to deal with this or not deal with it as they see fit.

  14. H’ Y’Racheim. I just watched the video. I am wondering what will be the reaction of the “modern orthodox rabbinate”. I heard this Rosho expose his K’fira several years ago, where on a talk radio show he compared orthodoxy with conservative Judaism as “Ailu V’ailu Divrei Elokim Chaim”. We all know what the Gemorah says about Yoshko and how he is burning.

  15. Milhouse [11],
    You mean you are calling him “Yoshka”, as in “Yimach Shemo”, but you don’t think he was a Rasha? What a hipocrit!

    If he wasn’t a Rasha why then did he merit a death penalty by the Beis Din of that time (who then handed him to the Romans who wanted him dead)?

    “my reading is that he was something like a R Shlomo Carlebach-type figure” – Did Carlebach say he is a prophet? Did Carlebach tell people the Rabbis (the Tanaim – R’ Akiva etc.) were bad?

    Even the New Testiment you did a prety poor job reading. You would have seen what a violent man he was…
    And you write “Unfortunately, the only basis we have on which to form any kind of picture of who Yoshke was is the New Testament” – Did you ever learn “Chesronos Hashas” which is as relyable as the rest of the Talmud?

  16. Flatbush Bubby – Talmidei chachomin don’t waste their time on such things as YWN – bitul Torah, you know. This place is just for us common folk. 🙂

  17. ygmonsey (22) – Stop wondering what the “reaction of the modern orthodox rabbinate” will be.

    If you really want to know, just watch the video.

  18. jlq3D3, unfortunately you are ignorant of the halachos of Avoda Zara and all of the poskim who have discussed in great length about Christianity. If you were thoroughly aware of the halacha you would understand the indignation and outrage the majority of the bloggers are having over MR. Riskin’s remarks.

  19. jlq3d3 16,
    How about Jewish history? Do you know what kind of “Rabbis” lived at that time? – R’ Akiva, R’ Shimon Bar Yochai….
    If you think this violent rebel was a “Model Rabbi” at that time, did you ever wonder why did Jews always call him “Yoshka” which spells something we only curse the worst with…

    and you havn’t answered my other question.

    Do you realise this guy is being paid by missionaries to legitimize christianity to Jews? it is very clear from this video and others there. He speaks at “prayer Gatherings” and tells them the “Bris Bein Habesarim” between G-d and Abraham includes all christians. Do you agree with that too?

  20. hey dont get excited,
    we have so called “Rabbis” today too.
    they consider themselves as promulgators of a holy word and cause tremendouse chilul hashem.
    do i have to quote peter hammil,about the :rats”

    We all know the names….

  21. To those of you here who would like to crucify Rabbi Riskin, you’re really messed up. Just because he doesn’t wear a long beard, you diss him. Well, when you’ve done as much successful kiruv as he has, and had such a great influence on so many people as R’Riskin, then go ahead and throw the first stones. Otherwise, shut up.

    The Gemara discusses at least 4 characters who may have been Jesus. After all, he lived at the same time as the Gemara was being compiled on, and the Chachimim were certainly aware of the existence of this being.

    R’Riskin is talking about a historical being. No where does he imply that he is a messiah of anyone.

    And BTW, R’Riskin wears a kaput on Shabbos.

  22. I think that most of us feel that shmad is a bad thing, and avoid mentioning that man’s name for all the damage he and his students did to Judaism. But Rabbi Riskin doesn’t seem to see a problem.

    Well, here’s a suggestion: Portraying that man as expressive of Jewish beliefs is another way of saying that following his disciples is not a breach of your Jewish faith, just another equally legitimate perspective.

  23. BS”D

    36: Don’t call it “a derech”

    Please read between the lines, or alternately imagine me, a Yiddish speaker, saying the word “derech” with my mouth full.

    I was unaware/had forgotten (of) his recent past record when I wrote what I wrote before. My only first hand knowledge of him came from the very end of his tenure at Lincoln Square, where he did a lot of good.

  24. AWoman_outside_bklyn [34]
    Do you consider getting Jews to believe J wasn’t so bad as “Kiruv”? How about J himself, I guess he also did a lot of Kiruv…

    “R’Riskin is talking about a historical being” – Yes, we all know that. A historical being that meat historic tragedy to our people, mass genocide, till they decided to continue just with different tactics, including getting such idiots to give such speashes…

    and from you language “go ahead and throw the first stone” you sound like R’ Riskin yourself.

    Happy New Years…

  25. BS”D

    And BTW, R’Riskin wears a kaput on Shabbos.

    No, he IS (hashkafically) kaput.

    You mean to say he wears a kapote, but technically what he wears on Shabbos is a bekeshe. After this, he can have my Purim tin foil shtreimel to wear with it on Shabbos too.

  26. “go ahead and throw the first stone” you sound like R’ Riskin yourself.

    BS”D

    That is actually a quote from the “rabbi” who is referred to in the video :(.

  27. 38,
    Christians themselves also do a lot of good – we taught the world well – but the evil part is still evil. That’s why never judge a person by his worst or best moment, only by his essence.

  28. Do you consider getting Jews to believe J wasn’t so bad as “Kiruv”? How about J himself, I guess he also did a lot of Kiruv…

    BS”D

    His “Jewish” followers still do a bit of “kiruv” here in Ukraine. Actually, the word for what j4j does is shmad last time I checked.

  29. I saw a forum in CA before the high holy days on the Prayer of “Unesaneh Tokef”. The forum included 2 “orthodox Rabbis”, one from YU. The entire thing was full of Kfirah, how G-d doesn’t raelly decide who will live and who will die, and the gave all kinds of interpretations…

    Not one of them daid plain and simple that Hashem has an account for every detail, wheather we understand it or not…

    I really had enough of “Orthodoxy”….

  30. nowhere in the video does rabbi riskin claim that he is the messiah or that he believes in him.
    as a matter of fact at very end he emphatically says that when the messiah does come it will be a first coming and not a second coming.
    shame on you YESHIVA WORLD.

  31. 48, you are a sick person. please seek help.
    The fact that called Jesus a “rabbi Jesus”, is enough to make you puke.

    What a lowlife.

    In fact, he embarrassed himself. He shamed the entire rabbinate who use the title Rabbi.

  32. yes that the ‘peiros’ of ‘torah umaddah’…not for nothing did the munchas elozor decrey that the tzaddik ‘rav yitzchok elchonons’ name was dragged into the mud

  33. I just watched the video. This man is an apikores to the tenth degree. Called yoshka “Rabbi”?

    Basicly, he just gave his Rebbi, The Goan, reb Yosher ber Solivetchik ZT”L the smae title as yoshka.

    Sickening.

    Noone can stick up for this creep.

  34. BS”D

    Against my better judgment I watched the video.

    Riskin is to the rabbinate as Madoff is to finance. Now I have another video to watch on (Eastern) nitel nacht when I get bored with my usual nitel activities.

    I think he has become full of himself lately or perhaps frustrated as even some of his people move far to the right of him.

  35. MDshweks:

    Correction – The Jesus of Christianity is not mentioned anywhere in the Gemorah. Sorry to disappoint you. You want to challenge me on that? Go right ahead…

  36. Rabbosai,

    Dont be so quick to jump on the M.O. rabbinate and Y.U. because of a questionable statement said by one of “their” rabbis.

    As our own communtiy has just had a couple of our own rabbonim be involved in some much worse activities that caused a MUCH MUCH larger chilul Hashem, and we wouldnt want people saying that what they did are the “peiros” of our system.

  37. Why do legitimate historians even believe that “yoshke” ever existed? There is absolutely nothing indicating that he actually lived, much less the level of detail that people posting here (and this…Rabbi) seem to attribute. There are a few scattered references in Josephus (which came out of the Christian censors) and then the new testiment, which is pretty obviously not reliable as history. Additionally, the Gemarahs people quote very clearly do not seem to be refering to this individual either. Anyone have anything of substance?

  38. 59,
    The Talmud refers to “Yeshua Hanotzri”, the cencered paragraphs are found today in “Chesronos Hashas”.

    This is what the Ramba”m writes (uncencered) in laws of Avoda Zara 10:2:

    במה דברים אמורים, בגוי; אבל מוסרי ישראל, והמינים, והאפיקורוסין – מצוה לאבדן ביד, ולהורידן לבאר שחת, מפני שהן מצירין לישראל, ומסירין את העם מאחרי ה’, כישוע הנוצרי ותלמידיו, וצדוק וביתוס ותלמידיהן – “שם רשעים, ירקב” (משלי י,

    Rav Soloveichik was a big student of the Ramba”m, who discribes him far worse than some kind of Shlomo Carlebach… (see 11 above – it’s just amazing!)…

  39. 59

    Famous authors such as GA Wells and Earl Doherty were of the opinion that he never existed. Most historians do not agree. Its true that no CONTEMPORARY historian even mentioned him. However, scholars believe that although the NT is unreliable in general, it is enough to give the claim that that he existed significant backing. By the way, you are correct about the Gemorah.

  40. This is creepy. His manner of speaking and terminology are geared toward pulling in religious xtians. There’s another video called “Thank you Rabbi Riskin” that is extolling the virtues of a program that takes American xtian college students to Israel, and exposes them to such things as “religious authorities” (picture of Rabbi Riskin lecturing).

    Also, his videos are in the “Howto and style” category. There isn’t a religion category? Straange. It doesn’t seem that Jews are his target audience.

  41. this is the same ‘rabbi’ that i read many years ago in one of these ‘ahem’ newspapers on his weekly parsha column with heading ‘moses the great prophet but lousy politician’

  42. #58 its not just one of their rabbis, too many come out with kefiredike statements and haskofos. the whole mosed ‘stunkt fun kup’.you have tendler,lamn,lookstein and the list goes on and on.now you had a forum on toaivah..they practically accept it r’lz

  43. R Riskin is speaking to a Christian audience in this video. He very much believes that Jewish leaders should cultivate strong ties to moderate members of other religions so that the groups could bind together on issues in which we agree. In this video he basically says that we respect the Christian religion and belief system and that Jews and Christians have a lot in common even if we have some differences over messianic philosophies. By doing so, he is establishing a relationship with the Christian community. By establishing this relationship he can have productive conversations with outside leaders about issues that are important to us. For example, Gilad Shalit, Iran, General Anti-Semitism etc. On the other hand if you denegrate other people’s faith good luck getting them to support Jewish causes when we need help. By looking at it in this way it is clear that the Rabbi should be praised for his efforts.

  44. to #49 uncle moishe.
    you have to use your brains,don’t you realize that in this video his talking to non jews,and by calling him a rabbi,he is basically telling them that NO he is not a messiah and NO he is not chas vesholem the son of g-d.and as far as calling yoshke a rabbi, it is definitely not a bigger sin than calling a conservative or a reform clergyman a rabbi,as a matter of fact yoshke was more of a rabbi than any of these reform rabbi’s,because he himself at least believed in g-d and believed in torah shebeksav,but not in torah she balpeh, but these reform rabbi’s of today are absolute atheist and don’t believe in anything ,and if you know your history he himself never claimed to be a messiah or a son,but it was 100 yrs later that his disciples started this meshigas.
    and by the way some people in crown heights calling a dead person moshiach in my opinion is a much bigger problem than calling yoshke pondrik rabbi

  45. 65,
    you said,

    “its not just one of their rabbis”

    It is unfortnatly not only one of our rabbonim either, read the news.

    The point is you cant paint an entire movement or organaztion because of the acts of people affiliated with it, and if you can that isnt so good for many chareidei institutions either.

  46. ha ha ,so now we have a rabbi yoshka and a rabbi riskin.
    I guess if you call yemach shemo a rabbi then you can call this other character a rabbi.

  47. Let me get this straight:

    Rabbi Riskin seems to believe that “J” never started christianity, but was a misunderstood rabbi whose legacy was perverted into a messianic cult, a view which makes _sense_ and is NOT anti-torah.

    YWN then encourages openly slandering him.

    _Other Rabbi_ engages in perverse behavior which snowballs into a massive chillul Hashem in the NY Post, and it never graces your website (probably for the better)

    You don’t even mention his resignation – chas v’shalom, there might lashon hara chas v’shalom.

    Your hypocrisy is sickening.

  48. MDshweks #60, thanks for the reminder. I think there is also a mention in Hilchos Melochim in the Rambam. Also, look up the Igros Moshe. I do believe that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L wrote something about how the different sects of Christianity are Avoda Zara.

  49. MDshweks seems to be under the strange impression that “Yoshke” is some sort of abbreviation for a bad name or something. How ridiculous. If Yoshke were a bad name, we wouldn’t use it for good yidden, for our own friends and relatives! It’s a perfectly common Yiddish nickname that is used for anyone whose name is Yosef; how it got applied to a Yeshua I’m not sure, but it doesn’t really matter. It’s what he’s known as in Yiddish and that’s it. But the fact that MDshweks doesn’t know that Yoshke is a normal nickname shows that he’s not as familiar as he thinks with Jewish culture.

  50. I didn’t watch the video and have no idea what rabbi riskin may have said or implied.

    It should be pointed out that most historians, contemporary and older do not believe the yeshu of the xtian bible existed as presented, if at all. It has been proven that the references in josephus were added by xtian scholars at varipous times in an attempt to prove contemporary historians mention him.

    The web site cited by ywn is clearly an anti missionary site. Jews for j are the ones who usually dress iup yeshu in jewish symbols (the magen david is prominent in a lot of their literature) call him by a jewish name “yeshua” and refer to him as a rabbi. Their reaction to the things claimed said by rabbi riskin makes sense in light of what they do.

    As has been pointed out by others, the line about “casting stones” is straight out of the xtian bible and jews should probably refrain from using it.

    Regarding the xtian messiah in shas, rishonim spent a lot of time refuting such claims and they are usually found nowadays on hate sites put out by neo nazis (one claim, just to illustrate the nonesense of it all, is that bilaam is a code word for yeshu).

    Whatever rabbi riskin did or didn’t say, did or didn’t imply, I’m wondering where the heter to disparage a derech and a whole bunch of people who live it is found.

  51. Whether or not the Yoshka mentioned in the Gemora is the one now known as the founder of Cristianity is a subject of dispute among the Rishonim there is a very informative shiur from Rabbi Mordechai Becher on the subject.
    As to someone saying that Yoshka was a misunderstood Rabbi, that is something that is simply to ridicules to deem worthy of a response.

  52. I would just like to comment that to compare a man who is probaly guilty of kefira in a public setting to say the least, to one who has done much good but has allegedly proven that no one is immune to the Yetzer Hora (see the end of Kiddushin) shows a serious lack of understanding of the basic underpinnings of the a true Jewish Weltenshaung.

  53. First of all everyone has to cool their anger. Does anyone know for whom this video was made? It was not made as an educational tool for Jews but for him an entree to the Christian world. Did anyone ask Rav Riskin about this? I am sure that he is trying to court the very few friends that the Jewish people still have in this world, the Christian right. Don’t go condemming him without even asking and be dan Lekav Zchut. Anyone who is trying to gain friends for the Jewish people during this serious time of existential danger should be applauded and not ridiculed.

  54. This is ridiculous and reveals totally the amaratzos that prevails in the yeshivashe world. You can agree or disagree with Rabbi Riskin’s derech or hashkafa, but he is most certainly not an apikores nor an amha’aretz.
    When someone speaks to religious Christians, it’s in the language that they understand. It’s like calling a shul: a Jewish church. So what. And everything that Rabbi Riskind said was factual.
    It’s also interesting to note that there is a Rashi that states that some of the Apostles were indeed true tzadikim who wanted to separate Christianity from any hava amina of Judaism. This was due to the popular movement at the time to incorporate Christian messianic thinking into Yiddiskeit. Sound familiar?

  55. Am I the only one out there that simply does not understand why YWN posted this? What’s the point? This is disgusting!! Pure loshon hora! If someone held of this rabbi, nothing will change their mind. Nothing good can possibly come out of this. The editors at YWN should feel ashamed that they could stoop so low. This will only incite sina’as chinam and other bad stuff amongst us. It only shows the true intentions of YWN- to get the most hits on their website, at any cost.

  56. Funny how we are citing secular historians about the principal figure of another religion when we would not ever listen to what they have to say about ours.

  57. Without using improper name calling, which is not necessary while debating if it is l’Sheim Shamayim, it would seem that Mr. Milhouse is very unaware of the true outlook of Yoshke by Chazal – who is mentioned several times in various places, as explained and noted by others above. It also appears that among the comments, MDshweks is the closest to the truth – very well formulated responses, though a bit sharp. Milouse – that is exactly what his name we use means! Not only are you completely ignorant of what Chazal teach us, but then you poke fun at MDshweks for actually knowing it! You should at least recognize that you are speaking from pure emotion, not from fact.
    jackr – regardless of how his comments were used, or forum they were produced for, the din of Dan l’Kaf Zchus does not apply at all in this situation. His statements would more than suffice for k’fira. Review your mastery of halacha prior to making generalizations of terms that are all too often stated without validity.
    In closing, know that ygmonsey’s comment in #22 is a very real one. The gap between modern Orthodoxy and true, original, non-adulterated Orthodoxy is growing at rapid rates. Essentially, the modern Jew is just that – a Jew wishing to be more modern to blend into modern society. Such a culture cannot and will not last as its very basis is founded on goals that are not in line with true Torah Judaism. It is just a terrible shame that people take these comments lightly as they will only get worse. Furthermore, the conservative and reform “branches” only began in such a manner.
    Be very careful with your words and what you follow. The only real source for authentic Judaism is amidst our kadmonim. Look there for your hashkafa – not frauds such as the one appearing above.

  58. #82 – Another person claiming to understand halachos. Lashon hara? The man filmed himself saying this! He publicized it in one form or another! Nothing needs to be said. Before offering a psak on shmiras ha’lashon, first review your halachos. Go ahead and ask a sheila – this is not in the realm of lashon hara at all.

  59. 82 jckwhite

    Nonsense. No such Rashi exists. I know more about this subject than you. Don’t feed readers with such fallacies if you’re not initiated in this area. Give the source of this Rashi (you will not be able to) or retract your statement and reaffirm to the readers your ignorance.

  60. i suggest all of you take a look at the page of rambam which talks about this issue….yes….the page of rambam that was censored and removed by the christians many years ago…..yes…the page that only in the sefardic versions of the rambam have….its found in the old rambams on the very last page of hilchos melachim.

    the rambam was speaking to this riskin trash and all the apikorsim who stick up for him……yes….the rambam who is scared to call him by name….but riskin feels he can….yes…the same shtickle rambam that his rebbi rabbi solivetchik darshaned many times on….

    the entire yug gimel ikrim are designed to prevent riskins from creeping up on us…..

    and you call this article lashon hara?! what idiots! tipshim mammish.

  61. #80 from your past postings one can see your one of a kind with this riskin guy.i have read many of riskins weekly parsha articles they are full of ‘maddah’ without torah haskafa. a pure apikores

  62. #82 your a total ignoramus. when pointed out to you assimilated guys your apoikorses, you hide behind ‘loshon horah’ ‘sinas chinom'(??). first, on a apikores, oiverai torah, sonai hadas, its a mitzvah to be mefarsem as to not cleave to them, and where does sinas ‘chinom’ come in here, we have a good reason to hate such a apikores its not ‘chinom’, you klotz

  63. BS”D

    Nickname for Yosef = YOSHE (some people called Rav Soloveichik ZTL Reb Yoshe Ber for his name Yosef Dov).

    yoshke is strictly the dismissive name we use for oiso ha’ish.

    Regardless of the unfortunate individual in Monsey, who basically just gave in to tayvois that many of us have but BH can control, this video is way out of line. This is not tayvois, this is deluded thinking and pure apikorsis which assists the mashmidim in their evil goal of shmad.

    While the site YWN found it on is an anti missionary site, that site in turn mentioned that they found it on a missionary site.

  64. JT141414 wrote: “In this video he basically says that we respect the Christian religion and belief system and that Jews and Christians have a lot in common even if we have some differences over messianic philosophies.”

    As a practicing xian for thirty years and convert k’halacha to Judaism for fifteen years, I can tell you that statements such as this are very hurtful to converts and a chillul Hashem of the highest degree. There can be no “respect” for idolatry. You have no experience with how xians worship this man and what evil deeds are perpetrated in his name, it should be erased for all time! All you know is the false face. For all the bowing down to Eisav being done by Jews anxious for xian “support,” what have we received??? Absolutely nothing. Jews curry favor with xians, not to gain their political support, but for the dollars and the personal kavod that they receive for their efforts, G-d save us from such Jews. As to the “good” attributed to him, remember this from Divre Simcha by Rabbi Simcha Ysachar Ber Chalberstam, zt”l) “…even if we see in them (The Erev Rav) good things like Torah and tradition and good manners and in particular they make peace with everybody and peace is the foundation of everything,…we must reject all these people even when they have good aspects in their behavior because then will be time of clarification and selection and this will be the trial and choice in those days.” This information is coming out to the public to bring about just such a test. Those who think clearly and judge according to the halacha will pass it; those who take the side of kefira, the side that wants to blur all the boundaries and mix up the people, (i.e., no real difference between xians and Jews) this is from the Erev Rav, who are themselves a mixture…Of this the Vilna Gaon said: Whoever is not engaged in actively fighting the Erev Rav becomes an automatic partner to the husk of the Erev Rav, and whoever this may be it would be better for him had he not been created.” When xians see so-called rabbis saying such things, they immediately begin to believe that this is proof of the rightness of their way and that many Jews are about to fall down in worship of their god-man. What greater chillul Hashem can there be?

  65. YWN is not the forum for a discussion on xtianity but catholicism is not the only “branch” of xtianity. Many xtians believe catholics are ovdei avoda zara for their icons, belief in mary etc… While catholics believe those who don’t go for this stuff are non believers. What is important for yidden is not what they do or do not believe, but what we believe and not to distort what we believe, no matter the reason. If he wants to believe yeshu was a mainstream rabbi with views that were misinterpreted or blatantly distorted by others, let him. As long as he doesn’t declare that our torah, halacha and hashkafa derives in any way from the religion built up around this figure (whether real or imagined). What is important for yidden to understand is why the overwhelming majority of yidden who lived during the time of yeshu (whatever period in history it may be) urtterly rejected these teachings and why yidden for 2 thousand years gave up their life when confronted with “invitation” to take on these beliefs. In short, know your yiddishkeit and understand what you believe and why you believe it and when confronted with the beliefs of others, you will know why you don’t believe as they do.

  66. Shlomo Riskin is definitely a Zaken Mamre.

    In Gemara Gittin 57a, J is called “Poshai Yisrael” and his eternal punishment is stated: immersion in “Tzoaa Rosachas” for ridiculing CHAZAL and their teachings. As is mentioned in a marginal note in some editions of the Talmud, his name “Yeishu” was removed by Christian censors.

  67. Reb B., Common Sense, Shimen:

    You guys completely missed my point. Wether it is permitted to speak loshon hora about him or not wasn’t my point. My point is that why does YWN feel the need to publicize this? As shimen pointed out, anyone who reads his shabbos emails (no I don’t, I just happen to know a little about him) already knows what kind of person he is. It’s not like you’re going to change those peoples outlook on him. Leave him alone. Let him call himself a rabbi and preach whatever he wants to. He’s not coming into your shul and saying this. Talking in public about him will have absolutely no effect whatsover. So again, why does YWN feel the need to publish this? This isn’t breaking news? Nothing good will come out from this. That was my point.

  68. To Commenters #66, 68 and 78: you are three sane voices in what is otherwise a cacophony of hyperbole, ignorance and bigoted hatred which dominate the comments on this thread…comments which make me ashamed (as a ba’al teshuva) of being a part of Klal Yisrael.

    To everyone else, you are the reason why the gedolim recently castigated frum websites for allowing comments to get completely out of hand. As Rav Aharon Feldman (Rosh Yeshiva, Ner Yisrael) recently wrote: “Blogspots, internet sites — where anyone (mostly anonymous) with access to a computer can express his spontaneous, unchecked and unedited opinion with impunity — have become filled with tasteless, derogatory attacks.”

    You don’t have to agree with Rabbi Riskin’s derech in general or his attempt to address a Christian audience in particular. Fine… disagree. But the kind of tasteless, hate-filled, deragatory attacks that Rav Feldman excoriates are (Rachmona Litzlon) legion here. I am ashamed. I am disgusted. I am depressed by the words and lack of derech eretz of so many Jews who believe themselves to be “bnai Torah.”

    Signed,
    Shua Cohen, Queens, New York
    (That’s my name. I don’t cowardly hide behind anonymity like so many ‘brave’ folks here).

  69. Ben Levi said,

    “I would just like to comment that to compare a man who is probaly guilty of kefira in a public setting to say the least, to one who has done much good but has allegedly proven that no one is immune to the Yetzer Hora (see the end of Kiddushin) shows a serious lack of understanding of the basic underpinnings of the a true Jewish Weltenshaung.”

    Rabbi Riskin has done much good also. No one can dispute that.

    I think comparing somone who made a questionable statement after having done alot of good to somone caught on tape taking advantage of women he was supposed to be bringing closer to yiddishkeit while parading around as a holier than thou “authentic” jewish rabbi,
    “shows a serious lack of understanding of the basic underpinnings of the a true Jewish Weltenshaung.”

  70. Shimen (#88): “#80 from your past postings one can see your one of a kind with this riskin guy.i have read many of riskins weekly parsha articles they are full of ‘maddah’ without torah haskafa. a pure apikores”
    You couldn’t be more wrong about that; how are your stock picks?

    Common Sense Nonsense (#86)”Nonsense. No such Rashi exists. I know more about this subject than you. Don’t feed readers with such fallacies if you’re not initiated in this area. Give the source of this Rashi (you will not be able to) or retract your statement and reaffirm to the readers your ignorance.”

    Are you ready to eat your hat?

    From a shiur I heard recently from my Rav concerning fasting on Asara B’Teives:

    The gemara in Avodah Zarah: “Rome possesses neither script nor language”.
    Rashi: “others wrote their books for them.”
    Dikdukei Sofrim (Rav Raphael Rabbinovicz) – Rashi is a censored version and makes no sense. The uncensored version is:
    “…others wrote their books for them. Namely, John, Paul and Simon Peter, all of them Jews.
    Language refers to grammatika, the Latin spoken by priests.
    They, the Jews, transformed the language of the Romans into an obscure one, in order to separate them from Israel.
    They, the Jews, were not apostates; rather they acted from the best of intentions so as to benefit the Jews. They saw that the Jews were oppressed by the deceitful acts of the followers of Jesus, they impersonated priests, and ordained all the Christian laws and customs and books as is stated explicitly in the Toledot Yeshu narratives”.

    The first Christians kept the torah except that they believed that Yoshka was moshiach; there were regular Yiden and Christian yiden. Regular Yiden were buying into this new zach, so in order to make an obvious separation, the chachomim planned that an adom chashuv would have to be moser nefesh for the cause, thus came about the new testament.

  71. Three videos of Rabbi Riskin are currently featured at Jewishisrael.com in addition to numerous reports and blog postings.

    Representatives from Jewish Israel (including a well-respected Rav), as well as a former Christian bible teacher who is now a counter-missionary expert have met with Rabbi Riskin. There has been an ongoing published debate between Rabbi Riskin and myself. The correspondence has been civil and the topic demands our attention.

    We have a very real problem, because even though Rabbi Riskin is on record for opposing dialogue with Jews for Jesus or any Messianic entities, Messianic sites use material like this recent video and credit Rabbi Riskin for strengthening the messianic community in Israel.

    Videos on JewishIsrael.com:
    Rabbi Riskin discusses Jesus and messianism
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/rabbi-riskin-discusses-jesus
    Rabbi Riskin and the Christian Embassy
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/rabbi-riskin-references-the
    Rabbi Promoting 2009 Christian Day of Prayer for Peace
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/rabbi-shlomo-riskin-in

    Sampling of Reports at JewishIsrael.com:
    http://www.jewishisrael.com/page/rabbi-riskin-takenin-or
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/riskin-jewishchristian-union
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/rabbi-riskins-new-center
    http://jewishisrael.ning.com/page/the-judeochristian-oped-and

  72. Someone, I am sure, will correct me if I am mistaken, but…
    It is my understanding that even the name “j….” which xtians claim comes from the name yeshua (i.e. salvation) is actually a derivation of what he was called in the Gemara, which was NOT the name I just mentioned, but YSH”U, (yud, shin, vav – with NO letter “ayin” which would ne needed for the shoresh of yeshua) – i.e. rashai taivos for Yemach Shemo U’zichro. So, his name was, in fact, wiped out, and those rashai taivos form what xtians, ironically, think was his name.

  73. #82 anything publicized and know for the public is not bgayder loshon horah.anyone who is bgaider koifer, stating opinions against torah etc etc is ‘mitzvah lisnoso’ psochim

  74. #35 the saying ‘throw the first stone’ originates from ‘him’ so no wonder your sticking up for this riskin guy . your probably a follower of ‘him’. also from your language ‘diss him’ gives you away…frum people dont use such lang.

  75. #84 reb b., #87 normalstein etc.. ‘sefasayim yishak mayshuv devorim nechonim’ ‘v’da mah shetashuv l’apikorsim’..keep up the good work. this is called kiddush hashem, not what every knuckelhead uses to extol oiveri aveirah and call it kidddush…

  76. #94 na,na na,your not going to weasel out of this …’shema ause leamshicha abasrei’ you might say this about a private unknown guy not somone who is a apikores mefursem and the danger lies there. read upon moshe mendelshon, , achar (aron chariner rabbiner ), spinzoa, frak, etc the holy tzaddinkum chasam soifer, noa biyehuda etc had no problem exposing their danger… no kid gloves.

  77. #97 cherrybim and others ..from your posting here and the other torah website its not suprizing you stick up for him, but, like we stated, thats the product if you mix keddusha and tummah, torah ‘umaddah (tipshus) holy and profane. thats why the REAL holy tzaddikum assered this ‘klaim’of chosmos chitzonis which is actually assuredin mes. sanheddrim perek chelek

  78. #97 thats your own history, no, yoske abandoned torah shebal peh… hock nit kein chainik… winnepec is not holy to us ‘kmoshe mipi hagvurah’!!!!! we have holy sources for our history not what professor whoever said in hebrew university.

  79. #97..by the way, i day trade, in and out , max 1/2 hr, and leave the gambling for guys like you. currencies and S&P.. Easy 500 $$$, 2 contracts per day…one rotten stock i will definately not bet on is ‘rabbis’ who have no tzurah of a yid and yiras shomayim ‘im hurav dome l’malach hashem tzevuous yevakshu torah mipihu vim lav….’

  80. #95 lenco49… you are in league with the others see #105. and all you guys can come up with when pointed out your kefirah, assimilated ,trefe deyous is ‘hate, bigots etc etc. for your kind see #98

  81. Mod: You will allow Shimen to call me and others an apikores and to spew his hatred but not allow me to indicate to all that Shimen has proven himself an idiot? Nice going.

  82. #96 and you big mavin, has the ‘basic understanding’ of true yiddishkeit. ahem, and who taught you the ‘basic undersatanding of’…is it guys like riskin? spinzoa, stephen weize etc ?

  83. #109 you proved yourself, so stop crying… if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen… go ahead and label me what ever you feel comfortable with so whats the problem, you like hatemonger, bigot, racsist, etc.

  84. #109 what so not nice about being an ‘apikores’ its not a dirty name its just a description of one who expounds views not in sync with the holy torah and S’U.Views that were affected by absorbing much too much from the secular smutz gass, torah umadah (which ends up with more maddah than torah)and incorporating it in the torah. so thats insulting?

  85. #95 lenco49. i looked up shua choen of queens and dont see it. can you post your exact address and tele #, cell phone? i mean i can say i am moishe kapoiah from china town that doesn make me ois coward. thanks in advance

  86. I remember (way back) in my days in Y.U. there was always much discussion about the often used term “synthesis” of Torah and Madah, and how it was a difficult, if not impossible, thing to do.
    I recall my year book had a drawing of the Y.U. symbol (which has those 2 terms on it) with a “Liberty-Bell”-like crack between those words.

  87. #109 listen mr hypocrite, in #80 you insult the yeshivisah world you say ‘am haratzes that prevail in the yeshivah world’ remember so 1) a liar has to have a good memory as not to contradict himself… emes never is soiser itself. 2) make sure your words are always soft and sweet, for you never know when youll have to eat them. now make a nice bracha and eat your word, kutchi, kutchi. and by the way, which world are you from, mr arrogant, that you think your not an am haratze?

  88. #116 i dont care what your discussions in that ‘university’ were. i know only the derech of reb akivah eiger, chasam soifer, rev velvel mibrisk, kehilos yakov, igros moshe, divrei yoel, belz tzddikum, etc. etc. kedoshei elyonim. how is this riskin l’havdil compared to these holy tzaddikum, heh? hows that compared to l’havde to universities that border on kefirah, walking dangerous grounds regarding toiavah etc… production of rah-bonim who are matir issurei deoireise etc.

  89. SHIMEN,

    the chariedi community has much more embarrassing scandals (and online media, for that matter) going on with prominent leaders of its communitys (both chasidish and litvish) then this video to say the very least.

  90. Shimen wrote: “i looked up shua choen of queens and dont see it. can you post your exact address and tele #, cell phone? i mean i can say i am moishe kapoiah from china town that doesn make me ois coward. thanks in advance”

    Shimen: You can’t spell (nor even copy my last name correctly)…you have no sense of proper grammar or punctuation…you can’t write a cohesive English sentence…and yet you’ve probably posted over a dozen comments on this thread. Please, lie down and have a nap.

    Anyway, I suspected that I’d hear something nasty from you and you didn’t disappoint. As for you request: by the nature of your personality (as reflected by your comments) I certainly would never give you my address and telephone number. Can you guess why? Yup…you’re a frightening character. The last thing I need is harassing telephone calls or a rock through my window from you. Have a good life.

    Shua Cohen (born in Manhattan but lived all of my 60 years in Queens).

  91. I just came across a link to an article from today’s Wall Street Journal entitled: “Keep a Civil Cybertongue.” The following quote is from the 4th paragraph down:

    “The comments sections of online gossip sites, as well as some national media outlets, often reflect semi-literate, vitriolic remarks that appear to serve no purpose besides disparaging their intended target. Some sites exist solely as a place for mean-spirited individuals to congregate and spew their venomous verbiage.”

    That this paragraph accurately describes so much of what is written in the comment threads of “frum” websites is a disgrace. It’s a shame that while the goyish Wall Street Journal seeks to elevate civil discourse on the web, too many Yidden don’t seem to believe that we have a similar obligation to civility (called derech eretz) from the overriding source that is the Torah. This is why the Gedolim in Eretz Yisrael spoke out so strongly last week against “frum” websites, suggesting that they be shut down.

    Shua Cohen

  92. “Shimen: You can’t spell (nor even copy my last name correctly)…you have no sense of proper grammar or punctuation…you can’t write a cohesive English sentence…and yet you’ve probably posted over a dozen comments on this thread. Please, lie down and have a nap.”

    lenco49 – Not very nice. Read the WSJ article again…

  93. #120 im totally uninterested in any perfect grammar. in our circles people are not judged by their grammar, history, shakespeare knoledj(knowlege for you) but by their yiras shomaim and yitras chet, temimes and ehrlichkit. thats another differece beteewn secular jews like you and temimesdige ehrlich yidden like us

  94. #120 i see my message (messege for you) gets across very nicely..so its irrelevant for me whether i before except after c or i spell nife instead of knife etc. so lets see you have no refutation to my tanes against these secularized heretical ‘rah-bbis, so you complain about my grammah….nu ,nu

  95. #121 and from your 3rd paragraph one can see your ‘love ‘ for ehrliche (frum) yidden, not just mah grammah and spellin’, so im not off the mark . so you just go ahead and be particular abour grammah, and your ‘yiras shomayim’ that you derive from WSJ ,NYT etc, i’ll stick to the holy chasam soifer, penei yoshuah, rashi hakodoshetc, etc. adious, aviderzein (please dont excuse mah spellin’ and mah grammah…)

  96. #119 you mean chareidy like madoff and his henchmen, or the other tens of ‘chareidy’ lawyers who were indited for the same scandels (scandals for those who are particular about spellin’ and grammah’ like the non exsistant shia choen, ok, cohen, stop crying)

  97. Where are the moderators?

    The thread has gone way beyond what rabbi riskin may or may not have said.

    Several posters have crossed the line into personal attacks as well as slanderous statements about institutions. Ad masai?

    Yitz from Yonkers.

  98. To “bemused” (#122)who wrote: “lenco49 – Not very nice. Read the WSJ article again…”

    Mea culpa…you’re right. Even though I only pointed out what I thought was plain for all to see, nevertheless, it wasn’t very nice of me to do so. I should have let it pass. I’m sorry I got involved at all with this Shimen person. I should have known that it might cause my yetzer hara to get the better of me.

    I apologize, Shimen, if perchance I offended you. I disagree with virtually everything you have written, but I should have done so respectfully. You invoke the names of many Gedolai Yisrael of the past; I just don’t believe that any of them would express themselves in the same manner as yourself.

    Shua Cohen

  99. It pains me to no end to read some of the drivel (comments) that people posted here anonymously. Of course there are two sides to this story – there ALWAYS are. For all those posting blatant lashon hara & personal attacks on what purports to be a “frum” site – shame on you. What a bunch of hypocrites.

  100. #128, the moderators are in the same place as when you and your friends attack ehrliche chareidi yidden, when you dont have any complaints ‘where are the moderators’.

  101. #131 again mr. yitzw..lashon horah is not applicable when the whole world knows it. lashon horah in not applicable when someone spreads drivel, kefirah, ‘megaleh panim b’torah shelo kahlacha’ etc. see #84, 85

  102. #129 THERE IS NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE for..I DONT KNOW YOU, YOU DONT KNOW ME. IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM DID I GET INSULTED (BEING ILLITERATE IS NO ISNSULT TO ME, CALL ME AN IDIOT,NU, SO I AM AN IDIOT IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY. born in ertez hakdosha and lived most of my life (60 years amvs’h)in williamsbug boro park

  103. I heard Rabbi Riskin this Shabbos at The Shul (Chabad) in Surfside, Florida. Personally, I found the general tone overly apologetic towards Chr-stians, and I believe that the room was generally skeptical, if not occasionally hostile. One particularly pointed moment was when Rabbi Sholom Dovber Lipskar said that it was obvious that Yoschka (Riskin refers to him as Yeshu ha notzri) was obviously chayav misa, which Rabbi Riskin did not agree with. Also, Rabbi Riskin made some very confusing comments about going into a church (!), which I think pretty all poskim agree is assur. To be fair, that remains to be clarified, but I found the general approach of picking and choosing poskim to be very meikil regarding the Chr-stians to be unpleasant at best, but probably much worse. There was also criticism in the room of Rabbi Riskin regarding accommodation of Oslo (i.e. not wanting to upset the Israeli government), and minimizing the danger of missionaries (Hagee might be fine, but many others spend hundreds of millions to convert Jews). I am glad that I heard the presentation, but found it very unsettling, and I am sure that this incident that you report is not the last word on the matter. I also found constantly pointing the finger at Islamic extremism to be distracting from the real issues (overly lenient Jews, missionaries, and secular humanism).

  104. This is a disgrace to the name of Modern Orthodoxy. The man shouldn’t call himself a talmid of the Rav zt”l. He should call himself a talmid of “Rav Jesus.”

  105. And I thought Avi Weiss was off the track. Stevie wonder tops him so far
    Does any one remember his thought process while he was st Lincoln sq. or his wife’s views on family purity
    They where not always al pe din

  106. Rabbi Riskind thinks about jesus when he recites שמע. I suspect him of being a hidden christen and a non believer of the talmud teachings.Be cause he knows very well the the talmud states thaא jesus was some who did the following damage to the jewish people.ןשוע היסט והדיח את ישראלץ, and jesus was put in חרם, as stated in תולדות ישועץ therefore rabbis riskind should be put in חרם